Letter on Efren Carrillo sent to Sonoma County Democratic Party

I have dispatched the following letter to the Sonoma County Democratic Party at [email protected]. I received most of it as a model drafted by a large group of 5th District activists. I suggest you or groups that you are involved with consider sending such a letter, by Monday, since the SCDP will meet on Tuesday to consider how to proceed. You could use the following as a model, eliminating at least the last paragraph. Your letter could also be a much briefer letter.

August 8, 2013

Dear Sonoma County Democratic Party,

The 5^th District no longer has a supervisor representing us. This is an unfortunate situation. We need one as soon as possible. Could you help the voters of Sonoma County get a person who would be responsible. An important next step would be to ask for the immediate resignation of Supervisor Efren Carrillo.

Since Supervisor Efren Carrillo was arrested in the early morning hours of July 13 for attempting to break into a woman's home, Sonoma County's Fifth District has been without representation. This is the second time that Mr. Carrillo has been arrested for a violent act in less than a year. This latest arrest occurred after Mr. Carrillo apparently frightened a woman so badly that she called the police twice. Whether he is charged or not, we are deeply disturbed and offended by his actions, and by his spokespeople's insufficient explanations.

Supervisor Carrillo was catapulted into the highest elected County office at a young age and at first seemed bright and able to meet the heavy burdens of office. In addition, it was certainly time for Sonoma County's Latino community to have representation on the Board of Supervisors. But it now seems sadly clear that Mr. Carrillo had not matured enough to handle the pressures of high office.

Supervisor Carrillo's disorderly and aggressive conduct has brought great discredit and embarrassment not only to the Board of Supervisors, but to the whole County. Any other employee of the County would likely be terminated for such misconduct. As Mr. Carrillo stated when he personally fired Agricultural Commissioner Kathy Neville for a lesser transgression: “You fail to comprehend the depth of the problem or the liability your conduct poses the county.”

If Supervisor Carrillo does have a drug dependency, we support his taking time to address it. Unfortunately, he was removed to rehab without an apology or explanation for his behavior. Conspicuously missing is an apology to the woman he had threatened, or to his constituents. We cannot accept that behavior, which looks more like a cover-up than a road to recovery.

If he really intends to seek rehabilitation, Mr. Carrillo will be absent for more than a month, and unable to participate in decisions having importance to his District and the County, leaving his constituents unrepresented. Until truly rehabilitated, he can no longer be a role model for any citizen.

Even before his current problems, Mr. Carrillo had not been as responsive to his constituency as had previous supervisors during my 20 years as a resident here. I am one of a number of citizens who have been concerned about the apple orchard to vineyard conversion on Watertrough Rd. in the Sebastopol countryside near five schools with around 700 students. We tried many times to meet with Mr. Carrillo for over two months. He was never available, perhaps because he was spending so much time in Sacramento. So we ended up going to the Board of Supervisors at least half a dozen times to plead our case. We need a supervisor responsive to citizens as soon as possible.

Thanks for your prompt attention to this matter.
Sincerely,
Shepherd Bliss, Apple Roots Group
P.O. Box 474, Sebastopol, CA. 95473

Shepherd,

While I generally respect you and all you do for our community, I am offended by your participation in trial by media for Supervisor Carrillo, and I will send a letter to the Sonoma County Democratic Party in support of due process.

The few facts we have about what happened on July 13 do not prove that Supervisor Carrillo was attempting to break into a woman's home, and in fact can be interpreted very differently. It is not up to us to decide the correct interpretation of those facts: it is up to a judge and jury to interpret them in conjunction with the many other facts that are not available to the reading and speculating public.

It is also completely inappropriate for you to add to your accusation the statement that "This is the second time that Mr. Carrillo has been arrested for a violent act in less than a year." The District Attorney's office in San Diego dropped the charges. I believe they did so not because they were stupid or bought off, but because the events of that case occurred as described in Supervisor Carrillo's statement. It is reprehensible to use against him an arrest where he was found innocent.

Like you, I often disagree with Supervisor Carrillo on issues. Unlike you, I respect the work he does for his constituents, particularly his intention and ability to bring together factions who disagree so that mutual solutions can be sought constructively.

And apparently unlike you, I believe no one should be subjected to malicious speculation and demands for punishment before exercising their right to a fair trial. Gossip is a terrible weapon, and one that is certainly unworthy of you.

As for "conspicuously missing is an apology to the woman he had threatened," has she communicated to you that he has not apologized to her? If not, you don't know. In this case, a private apology is more appropriate than a public one, and we have no knowledge of whether he's given it.

To me, the crux of the inappropriateness of your letter is failure to distinguish what we don't know. What we don't know is almost everything relevant in this case. Until we know the whole story, calling for Supervisor Carrillo's resignation is a premature rush to judgment.

Wishing you well,
Sandy

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

I have dispatched the following letter to the Sonoma County Democratic Party

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I have always and continue to respect Sandy Eastoak and listen carefully to her points of view, even when we may disagree. I appreciate her seeing me before sending this letter in and our having a vigorous conversation about it.

Rather than respond directly to it with my own words, since I want to let her points sink in, I would like to send the following commentary from this week's Sonoma West. Rather than engage in a "trial," I do think it is the role of the media to discuss such matters and express different points of view. I appreciate Frank Robertson's description that "there’s a sense of disappointment, disillusionment and betrayal." I would also echo his comment that "The silence (by Carrillo) may be the most damning factor of all."

I genuinely hope that a credible explanation by Carrillo and his handlers is forthcoming soon.

https://i.imgur.com/yv1Iu.png

¿Quién sabe? [Translation: Who Knows? - Barry]

https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/opinion/editorials/qui-n-sabe/article_4c6cc8ee-ffab-11e2-b1b3-001a4bcf887a.html

by Frank Robertson | Posted: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 2:49 pm
The West County’s reaction to 5th District Supervisor Efren Carrillo’s arrest on suspicion of loitering or prowling last month is running the full gamut from crazy mumbling to gleeful schadenfreude, as might be expected. There have even been some thoughtful comments calling for patience while the justice system goes to work.

So now we have the usual cyberspace lynch mob howling “off with his head” and loyal supporters urging him to hang in there; yet even among the wait-and-see moderates there’s a sense of disappointment, disillusionment and betrayal.
No matter what happens next in court, the great Efren Carrillo success trajectory seems to have fizzled.

It’s like the space shuttle blew up and we’re watching the pieces fall. It’s over and it’s sad and we want to know what happened and why.

What are the best-case worst-case scenarios? I guess from Efren’s perspective best-case is that no charges are filed, he owns up to what happened, his constituency forgives him, he remains in office and does a decent job as supervisor. Worst case is he’s found guilty of a felony criminal charge and can no longer keep his job.

The worst of it now is that Efren can’t talk or won’t, probably on advice of counsel. We’re waiting to hear his story, his version of events, some redeeming narrative, but we haven’t been offered much hope. The silence may be the most damning factor of all.

Instead we are left to our own fervid imaginations to fill the information vacuum. Was he on drugs? Which ones? The clothes he wasn’t wearing — where were they? In his neighbor’s house? If he’s got a drinking problem, was it apparent when he was running for re-election? And if so, who knew?

And what about the larger picture? Maybe there isn’t any larger picture. If you’re thinking of running for higher public office, such as state assembly, generally you’d want to avoid getting arrested on suspicion of prowling at 3 a.m. wearing only skivvies and socks, hoping to have a couple of beers with the woman next door who apparently wasn’t really expecting a house guest at that hour. Maybe there was a scheduling conflict.

At the moment, none of the scenarios for salvaging Efren’s political career have much credibility. There is too much unknown.

There’s always been something about Efren that was a little unknown. He was a complete unknown politically when he first ran for office. The front story: son of Mexican immigrants, raised in a Habitat for Humanity house; the whole up-by-the-bootstraps narrative leading to a UC Berkeley degree and his extraordinary 2008 election to the Sonoma County Board of Supervisors at age 27 always seemed a little sudden, maybe just a little too fast.

At first some of us may have been cutting Efren some slack because of his youth, his freshness, his inexperience. Maybe it also had something to do with him being a Latino guy from Roseland. We wanted this all to coalesce into greatness, the result of what political observers such as former 5th District Supervisor Mike Reilly called “a great story.”

A Mexican Horatio Alger — the hardworking guy who persevered and succeeded and seemed to have the world on a string. What’s the story now? Who knows? Either Efren or his handlers have decided to say nothing further about it. What we have heard, such as comments from Efren’s colleagues on the Board of Supervisors last week, amounted to an implied no-confidence vote.

The talk now has turned to who might replace Carrillo as the 5th District Supervisor. We have three former supervisors still around, plus the whole gang who ran in 2008. It might be any one of them in the interim, until an election could be held, probably next June.

There is also the question of when we’ll have a working supervisor again. As things stand, the West County doesn’t have a vote on its own destiny. There’s a lot going on around here while our elected guy’s in rehab.

Frank Robertson’s commentary runs every other week in Sonoma West Times & News.

Shepherd,

Your comment, "...since I want to let her points sink in," is a beautiful example of civilized discourse. Real communication only occurs when we let each other's points sink in.

This is why it's important to speak and write respectfully. If our points arrive with insult and malice, what healthy person lets them sink in?

You've expressed a characteristic of safe community: we continue to respect and listen carefully, even when we may disagree.

You've also expressed a wisdom: giving time​ for points to sink in.

Thank you,
Sandy

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

I have always and continue to respect Sandy Eastoak and listen carefully to her points of view, even when we may disagree. I appreciate her seeing me before sending this letter in and our having a vigorous conversation about it.

Rather than respond directly to it with my own words, since I want to let her points sink in,...

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I really want to write something funny about how your posts here are scaring me, but I don't have time.....

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Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:

Shepherd,

While I generally respect you and all you do for our community, ...

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The following email was sent today to Stephen Gale and Don Frank, Sonoma County Democratic Party:

Greetings:

Sebastopol Tomorrow, founded in 1984, is a citizen group that endeavors to educate and encourage citizen participation in the decisions that affect our lives. We are committed to maintaining our community as a place we want to live today, tomorrow and for years to come.

The 5th District has no Supervisor representing us. This is an unfortunate, unacceptable situation.The details of Mr.Carrillo’s arrests reflect the behavior of an individual who should not be making important decisions that directly affect the lives of Sonoma County voters and their families, regardless of what happens in the courts.

We need to remedy this as soon as possible. An important step is to ask for the immediate resignation of Supervisor Efren Carrillo. We urge other responsible organizations to do the same.

Sebastopol Tomorrow

Yahoo, Sandy. I agree with you completely and on top of that Efren has been the only supervisor that mingles with the real community. You see him at every nonprofit benefit and personally, when I was in trouble, he was the only politician who would even talk to me. Efren went to bat for me immediately ,went to the courthouse and talked to she whose name shall not be spoken, on my behalf and on the behalf of many in the community. I saw in the PD the other day a letter to the editor, calling for his immediate resignation, saying she was a woman and a feminist and all women are afraid every single night of their lives.

Well, I'm a long time feminist, I am not afraid all the time, ,a big reason is because I am a feminist and I'm certainly not afraid of a half drunk Carrillo. Maybe it's because I'm from NY and used to not being intimidated but I'm sure when he's at work he's not downing shots of whiskey and playing liars dice. And if he was, probably half of those guys in suits would join him. They are just quieter drinkers and prefer to take $150,000 salaries and do nothing. So I support Efren, and have seen so many phony liberals running for office who are despicable in their personal lives though they might not be drunk in public. Guess who I would rather have representing me? Good for you, Sandy, for having the moxie to go against this lynch mob who don't have the info but are ready to condemn. Sandy, that's what a feminist is, brave enough to say what no one else will say.
Thank you.

Today's PD (see article here) indicates that Efren Carrillo's rehab has been extended for an uncertain length, during which time he will not be returning to work. This means that the 5th District and the County as a whole will not have someone representing it as crucial decisions are made in the coming weeks. After reading various responses to the Carrillo scandal and letting them sink in, I have written a second letter to the Sonoma County Democratic Party, which follows:

Dear Sonoma County Democratic Party,
Following upon my previous email requesting that you ask for an immediate resignation by Supervisor Efren Carrillo, I would like to add some additional points before you make a decision at your Tuesday meeting. According to an article in today’s Press Democrat, Mr.Carrillo’s rehab has been extended, so we no longer know when he will return to his duties. My points below are partly in response to respectful criticisms that I have received from others, who counsel patience as we wait for the courts to act.

1. True democracy thrives when citizens speak up freely and frequently, expressing diverse opinions and views, not only by voting once or twice a year. It is weakened by attempts to silence respectful dialogue and leaving decisions to the powerful, including those whom we elect. Our freedoms and democracy are deteriorating at the national level and must be carefully guarded and fully expressed at the local level, or we will loose our free speech and other liberties. We should welcome the active participation of citizens questioning officials, rather than try to limit it.

2. Our legal system favors the wealthy and powerful, especially those who can pay expensive lawyers. A recent example was George Zimmerman being found innocent of murdering black teen-ager Trayvon Martin, after which one juror admitted that “he got away with murder.”

3. Whatever the courts decide with respect to Carrillo, he has lost the confidence of a significant number of people, as revealed by the labor union letters representing some 60,000 workers. If the SCDC does not ask for his resignation, it will loose much of its respect by many people.

4. In addition to the legal courts, there is the court of public opinion. This is the court that my generation used to help end the American War on Vietnam, during which I was a U.S. Army officer, and to run President Nixon out of office. Mr. Carrillo will either resign or be run out of office by a recall for his inappropriate behavior, in my opinion. It will be partly your choice how you respond to the crisis he has created.

5. Transparency in our government and its officials is essential. It is my opinion that Mr. Carrillo owes his constituency a prompt and full disclosure of what happened in the early morning of July 13. His silence indicates that he is not transparent, as he was not in the previous San Diego matter. Instead, he and his handlers appear to be trying to cover-up the matter and concoct a narrative following what happened. It has now been a month since Mr. Carrillo has been in rehab, where it now seems he will be for a while longer. We have no date when he might return to represent the 5^th District. There is too much that we do not know that we deserve to know. The reason we do not yet know what really happened is that Mr. Carrillo has decided not to tell us. That is suspicious.

6. An appropriate role of the written and social media is not to engage in trials, but it does include an open, respectful, civil, and frank discourse of multiple points of view.

7. We should not rush to judgment regarding what really happened that early morning between Mr. Carrillo and a woman. We do know enough to know that Mr. Carrillo’s pattern of behavior is to withhold information and work behind-the- scenes to clear himself, rather than be forthcoming.

In conclusion, Mr. Carrillo’s behavior will forever leave a dark shadow over any future governing that he may do. My own associations with Mr. Carrillo have been that he is likeable and personable and has many skills. He tends to be an excellent communicator. So his recent actions and silence have left me feeling betrayed, disappointed, and disillusioned. This is not the first time this has happened with an elected official in my over half a century as a voter. However, this one is close to home and hurts.

Sincerely,
Shepherd Bliss, Apple Roots Group
P.O. Box 474
Sebastopol, Ca. 95473

Will the feeding frenzy please stop!
There are 2 sides to every story.
Period.

My intent was not one of harm nor repetition. Just the opposite. And no, it is not personal about the supervisor. No one can hear, so -- very well. Please know that you have simply not understood the post. Since my failure to communicate has been upsetting to several, I have deleted my posting.

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Posted in reply to the post by juna:

Will the feeding frenzy please stop!
There are 2 sides to every story.
Period.

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No, this dialogue will not stop. There are, indeed, even more than "2 sides to every story." There are many sides. Please do not try to stop the conversation. If the kitchen, using your "feeding" imagery, is too hot for you, then leave, but do not try to censor the rest of us.

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Posted in reply to the post by juna:

Will the feeding frenzy please stop!
There are 2 sides to every story.
Period.

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I see no efforts at censorship here. I see an individual exasperated with a lynch mob mentality and simply asking that the courtesy, and right, to due process is observed, and in the meantime we all cool our jets until we have the facts. Sounds reasonable to me.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

No, this dialogue will not stop. There are, indeed, even more than "2 sides to every story." There are many sides. Please do not try to stop the conversation. If the kitchen, using your "feeding" imagery, is too hot for you, then leave, but do not try to censor the rest of us.

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Your accusatory language like "lynch mob" is hardly "reasonable." There is no attempt to lynch anyone but to pressure an elected official to stop hiding and speak up. We voters deserve that. Efren Carrillo is obviously hiding something. I am angry and do not intend to "cool" until he resigns or is recalled. What is reasonable is that Mr. Carrillo speak to his constituency, rather than hide from us. He was caught with "his pants down," literally, as other politicians have been, figuratively. He is no longer believable. I do not intend to be silenced by your name-calling.

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

I see no efforts at censorship here. I see an individual exasperated with a lynch mob mentality and simply asking that the courtesy, and right, to due process is observed, and in the meantime we all cool our jets until we have the facts. Sounds reasonable to me.

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lynch mob
noun [C]

Definition
› a group of people who want to attack someone who they think has committed a serious crime

(Definition of lynch mob noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Your accusatory language like "lynch mob" is hardly "reasonable." There is no attempt to lynch anyone but to pressure an elected official to stop hiding and speak up. We voters deserve that. Efren Carrillo is obviously hiding something. I am angry and do not intend to "cool" until he resigns or is recalled. What is reasonable is that Mr. Carrillo speak to his constituency, rather than hide from us. He was caught with "his pants down," literally, as other politicians have been, figuratively. He is no longer believable. I do not intend to be silenced by your name-calling.

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Definition of "ACCOUNTABLE," from Dictionary.com:


"Subject to the obligation to report, explain or justify something; responsible; answerable."

No one has suggested he shouldn't be held accountable.

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Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat:

Definition of "ACCOUNTABLE," from Dictionary.com:


"Subject to the obligation to report, explain or justify something; responsible; answerable."

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Huh?

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

No one has suggested he shouldn't be held accountable.

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Foti, everyone has a constitutional right to speak their mind; this right includes pro-Carrillo people such as yourself and people who want him out of office, such as myself. We can all express our opinions, even trying to get others to NOT speak their minds. You have a legal right to say things like that.

But most people want Carrillo to relinquish the charge of representing us because he is unfit to be supervisor. Indeed, the 5th District has NO representation now because Carrillo is indefinitely in rehab. The minority has a right to protest the call for Carrillo’s resignation. But the majority also has the right to free speech, to demand Carrillo’s resignation, and we will not be silenced by anyone.

We assume Carrillo’s innocence regarding having committed a crime. But regarding holding public office, I could care less that Carrillo may or may have not committed a crime because I DON'T TRUST HIM ANYMORE AND I DON'T WANT HIM AS SUPERVISOR ANYMORE! And that's it. A public officeholder does NOT need to commit a crime in order to be bounced out of office and this fundamental, democratic truth is what the pro-Carrillo group refuses to understand; the “Pro-Carrillos” are in denial. I don't want Carrillo in power anymore. Period.

Edward

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

I see no efforts at censorship here. I see an individual exasperated with a lynch mob mentality and simply asking that the courtesy, and right, to due process is observed, and in the meantime we all cool our jets until we have the facts. Sounds reasonable to me.

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From the Press Democrat article yesterday comes this quote from Efren Carrillo's lawyer:

"I can't defend his overall behavior, and neither can he."

If he does not resign, it will be up to us, the voters, to make the decision if we want someone who has exhibited such poor judgment and engaged in this type of nefarious conduct to represent us. And that will have nothing whatsoever to do with any verdict which will be handed down when -- and IF -- this case ever goes to trial, which Sebastacat doubts highly that it ever will.

Edward, It's always a dicey proposition to draw too many conclusions from too little information. You refer to me as "pro-Carrillo". This is incorrect. I am pro-due process. You also imply I want to impede others from speaking their minds. This is also incorrect. I believe we should withhold judgement until we have all the facts and until we do I believe it inappropriate to leap to hasty judgements. Nonetheless, I will always support others' rights to free speech, at the very least in the interest of supporting my own. If you and I expect due process for ourselves then me must be willing to demand it for Carrillo.

Here are a couple of examples of how you misjudged my words and intent by making assumptions informed by inadequate information. In the end, I may very well be the loudest of the chorus calling for Carrillo's resignation but I'll hold my voice until we have as much information as possible to draw the best conclusions we are able. We're not there yet.

You also do not know that "most people want Carrillo to relinquish the charge of representing us because he is unfit to be supervisor". That is also supposition. This forum may embody such sentiment but wacco is hardly representative of the 5th district.
For the rest, you are most assuredly entitled to your opinion and I will always support your expression, if not the content, of same.

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

Foti, everyone has a constitutional right to speak their mind; this right includes pro-Carrillo people such as yourself and people who want him out of office, such as myself. ...

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Dear Edward Mendoza, Shepherd and All,

(with gracious thank you's to Barry giving us all the ability to edit past transgressions :0).

I sometimes cruise by here but haven't posted in years on WaccoBB. Love Barry, SaraS and many posting here but have to add my 2 cents (probably regret it later :0) to this thread.

To Edward, while I appreciate your opinion and admire your abilities to opine so effectively, you claim, as some of the 15-20 people posting on this thread, out of the 50,000 voters in the 5th District, that a "majority" want Efren to resign. Excuse me, but it appears on your bio Edward, you don't live in the district (perhaps too harsh and I apologize), and though some may argue the bell tolls for thee, i.e. we are all affected by the votes of EACH of the Supervisors...with you not knowing Efren that well and you not living in the district, your strident efforts are perhaps a stretch; but it is your right to criticize and I defend you in so doing.

Thus far the few that have commented in the Press Democrat, letters, or on WaccoBB, strike me as not having supported Efren in the first place as he didn't vote as they wanted him to on one or two issues, or with the unions oppose Efren out of self-interest for him not voting in their interest on the airport expansion, or for retirement reforms that try to avoid laying off younger workers and in order to try to continue providing County services.

My wife, daughter and self continue to support and respect Efren with whatever decision lies ahead for him. Personally I think if Efren can quit drinking he can survive this debacle and continue receive the support and represent the majority of our interests in the Fifth District as he has done so very effectively for the last 4 1/2 years.

By all means put this to the voters with a recall, and I will give you odds if Efren can clean it up, he could continue to be a role model that the majority of us in West County would vote to continue to represent us.

With great respect and kind regards to all, especially Edward Mendoza (I look forward to buying you a beer!) !!

Tom Lynch
15940 Drake Road
Guerneville, Ca. 95446
707-394-5157
[email protected]

[Tom, AKA "Manure Man", is one of two appointees to the Sonoma County planning commission for the 5th district. - Barry]

"In India we have a saying, 'In the end everything will be alright; and if it's not? We haven't reached the end yet.' "
~ Manager of Hotel in movie "Hotel Magnolia"

Tom,

First, I don't like your attitude in your post:

Edward, who are you??...you don't even live in the frigging district...unless you're afraid to post under your real name...

Is this an appropriate attitude for a man who seeks public office? There is not a whole lot of "With great respect and kind regards to all !!" as you stated.

Second, I would NEVER vote for you to become supervisor or for any public office.

Third, my name is Edward MENDOZA, not MENENDEZ.

Fourth, your question, "who are you??" What kind of a question and attitude is that coming from someone who aspires or aspired to represent the public??? So whenever you don't like what an American citizen (like me) and a Sonoma County resident (like me) says, you respond with, "who are you??" What exactly is that supposed to mean, Tom? Are you trying to imply that I'm a nobody? That my vote doesn't count? That I may not own a business or have some kind of social status acceptable to you? Wow! What an attitude! I hope you never run for public office again. Perhaps you only desire to serve an interested minority in public office but not all citizens, certainly not those who disagree with you, like the majority do over Carrillo?

Fifth, I do not live in the 5th district BUT because there are 5 votes on the county board, which DO affect me as a Sonoma County resident, it is very much my business who the 5th district supervisor will be. And I hope it is someone much better than Carrillo or yourself. Five supervisors vote and make laws that affect EVERYONE in Sonoma County, myself included. I care a lot about what kind of people are occupying those 5 seats.

Sixth, If you want to make bets, then I will bet that the majority of Sonomans AND 5th District voters want Carrillo out. I base this not only on the Wacco List, but also Press Democrat commentary, and a local paper in West County where they also have an online poll and approximately 2/3 want Carrillo out (2/3 on the Wacco poll also want Carrillo out). That is what I base my assertion on. Maybe I'm wrong but that is unlikely given the evidence.

If there were a recall election, Carrillo would lose it. Carrillo would probably lose the recall by roughly 2/3, reflecting the sentiment already expressed in local newspapers and website polls. Carrillo at the very least would lose the recall. Those are my odds. If there is a recall and Carrillo wins then I will publicly admit that I was wrong to everyone present at the Hopmonk, with a drink in my hand.

Seventh, Carrillo is NOT a role model that the majority in West County would vote for, as you assert. Carrillo has already demonstrated this on more than one occasion with his two arrests.

Eighth, I would rather not have people with drug dependency issues sitting in positions of great power affecting the lives of 50,000 citizens (again, his vote affects EVERYONE in the county, not exclusively the 5th District).

I could go on but I've made my points for now. Care to talk some more? It doesn't seem to interest you to do so, Tom. Especially if you seriously plan on running for public office again, these kinds of posts you publish don't improve your image. Your popular nickname, "Manure Man," is appropriate.

By the way, Tom, please don't forget to print this post of yours and distribute it among voters the next time you run for office.

Edward
American citizen, Sonoma County resident

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

Edward, who are you??...

...you don't even live in the frigging district...unless you're afraid to post under your real name...

Tom Lynch

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Due Process, Foti?

You completely miss the point. This has nothing to do with legal due process. Carrillo can be found innocent in court and he will still be unfit for public office. I want him out and so do most people. He doesn't belong in a position of power affecting 50,000 peoples' lives. Wake up.

Edward

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

I am pro-due process....

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"Edward Menendez"?

"Friggin'"?

Geez............

A "role model"? For who? For what?

Here's what: For having incredibly bad lapses of judgment leading to ultra-bad behavior, then running for
duck-and-cover to a clandestine place where he and his "advisors"
can think up new and imaginative ways to conjure up even more incredible explanations in an
attempt to fool a supposedly gullible and unsuspecting public.

Oh, no, that's not it at all! What on earth was I thinking?

For a spot on that pilot show we're all looking forward to called "Politicians Gone Wild"! That could certainly provide Efren with a lucrative opportunity if he ever finds himself out of office.

Perhaps he can ask Anthony Weiner and the mayor of San Diego to join him.

(And, yes, Tom, I found the tone of your post pretty nasty, too. And I live in this district and have since 1961.
In fact, a significant portion of my family has lived in this district since the 1920s. And we all care -- and care deeply -- about the judgment -- or lack thereof -- exercised by our elected officials.)

My apologies to Edward Mendoza, Sebastocat, and All Posters to this thread,

I'm sorry, I was in a hurry today having read these posts and decided to post and did so without thinking. I did not mean to offend nor in any way lessen your opinions. I have toned down and edited my previous remarks and henceforth will be more careful with my passionate pronouncements.

As mentioned I rarely post on this site and when I do so it is my habit to do so under my real name and I get into trouble. My wife says, "...I can't take him anywhere." or "...he's been that way ever since the accident." :0P

Anyway I'll probably read my comments tomorrow and end up erasing them and disappearing for a couple more years.

kind regards to all...

Tom Lynch

p.s. To Edward Mendoza...if indeed there is a recall (which I question the merit of) I would wager you two rounds to one at Hopmonk that a large majority would support our Supervisor Carrillo IF he cleans up his issues.

This has nothing to do with due process? ... sir, would you like to be accused of a crime which could affect your career without any chance to defend yourself? ... this is a violation of his 6th amendment rights ... could someone address this issue please ... how are you concluding that he is "unfit for office" without knowing the facts? ... seriously, I'm genuinely confused by this ....

Public consensus based on an article in the PD and a few confusing statements from the police? ... are you really concluding that he's guilty without any of the questions being answered? i.e.. why didn't the police test him for intoxication and why did they state that he wasn't that drunk? ... do you not wonder about these things?

We're now living in a world where anyone can turn in their neighbor as a terrorist ... and if this happens to you there's no due process, no trial, the matter is discussed in secret courts and you're not even informed ... is this progress? I don't think so ... is this fair? definitely not ... would you like this done to you? I doubt it .... I was taught to assume innocence until proven guilty, but I guess that these old fashioned ideas about justice are just incredibly outdated .... silly me ...

BTW, I bumped into a few old friends recently who also question the strangeness of this event, but they don't dare get on Wacco for fear of being verbally abused ...

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

Due Process, Foti?

You completely miss the point. This has nothing to do with legal due process. Carrillo can be found innocent in court and he will still be unfit for public office. I want him out and so do most people. He doesn't belong in a position of power affecting 50,000 peoples' lives. Wake up.

Edward

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roses are red
violets are blue
where in your head
is the presence of you

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

This has nothing to do with due process? ... sir, would you like to be accused of a crime which could affect your career without any chance to defend yourself? ... this is a violation of his 6th amendment rights ... could someone address this issue please ... how are you concluding that he is "unfit for office" without knowing the facts? ... seriously, I'm genuinely confused by this ....

---

"American Citizen," a Youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRb9Ntg-_Hw

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

Edward, who are you??...

Tom Lynch

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Edward,

Obviously, you'd rather compose little derogatory poems instead of answering my question about the 6th amendment ...

I withdraw my question ... this is a waste of my time ... you're right, due process is not going to help Efren ... the lynch mob has spoken and, in this case, proven facts, or should I say the lack of proven facts, have little bearing on perception ....

May you never be in the same situation ...

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

roses are red
violets are blue
where in your head
is the presence of you

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I gladly accept your wager, Tom!

We'll have to be careful, though. Sebastopol police have been well known for staking out the Hopmonk and pulling over customers who get into their cars immediately after leaving that establishment. It might help If we park a few blocks away.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

p.s. To Edward Mendoza...if indeed there is a recall (which I question the merit of) I would wager you two rounds to one at Hopmonk that a large majority would support our Supervisor Carrillo IF he cleans up his issues.

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I appreciated the graceful tone and content of Tom Lynch's 4:35 response yesterday. I think for Edward and Tom to share a good, local beer at Hopmonks would be a good idea, which is what lawyers taking contrary sides of a case have been known to do. As Edward does, I also park a few blocks away and then walk around after being at Hopmonks. Both Tom and Edward are long-time committed Sonoma County activists, both of whom I respect, though I have disagreed with both of them at times. If I would be welcome at such a sharing, I would certainly come. I hope that we can find more ways to disagree without being disagreeable or making personal attacks and come back together, win or lose on this particular issue. I will do my best to do so. We will have a lot to deal with in the future. No need to burn bridges and hold grudges because we disagree on some matters.

I hope the Board of Supervisors itself, or some group, will help get us out of this mess, and find an agreeable due process to having someone represent the most progressive and environmentalist district in the wonderful Sonoma County that we all love.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

I gladly accept your wager, Tom!

We'll have to be careful, though. Sebastopol police have been well known for staking out the Hopmonk and pulling over customers who get into their cars immediately after leaving that establishment. It might help If we park a few blocks away.

Best,

Edward

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Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

To Edward Mendoza...if indeed there is a recall (which I question the merit of) I would wager you two rounds to one at Hopmonk that a large majority would support our Supervisor Carrillo IF he cleans up his issues.

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If you guys are really making this bet, you'd better explicitly define what "a large majority" means.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

FDR election 1932:
57.4%. This was a landslide.

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So, Edward, by your own definition Efren won the 2012 election by a landslide with 58.4% of the vote, with Ernie Carpenter getting 28.3%, and Veronica Jacobi 13.1%. Why don't we sit tight until the facts of this strange situation come out fully? I wouldn't want to be pre-judged, would you? If Efren needs to go, then I will support his resignation, as any reasonable person should. By the same token reasonable people should calmly await the release of all the pertinent facts of this matter. The truth will come out, then and only then, is the time for you to yell "Off with his head!" if you must. I and most people, I believe, that time has not yet come.

Dear Jon Box,
“The truth will come out,” you say, so we should just "sit tight" for the legal system without also using the court of public opinion. I doubt that we will ever know the full truth, since Efren Carrillo's handlers now have even more than a month to be buying people off with their big bucks. It has not always been the case that "the truth will come out" in my nearly 70 years on this planet. You have much more faith in the legal system than I do to bring justice. I have more trust in mass movements, such as the civil rights, suffragettes that won the right for women to vote, the peace movement that ended the American War on Vietnam, those who ran Nixon out of office and those of us demanding that the 5 District have a Supervisor, sooner rather than later.

However, when the following things happen:

+ Armed thugs like George Zimmerman who kill unarmed black teenagers like Traython Martin, thus “getting away with murder,” as one juror admitted after the verdict, are locked up;

+ The first of the millionaire banksters are thrown in jail for crashing the U.S. economy, while benefiting themselves;

+ Texas executes a murderous corporation (now that the Supreme Court has decided that corporations are people);

Then I may gladly wait patiently, calmly for the many months without 5^th District representation that it might take, well into 2014, a court to decide about the facts of what happened when the police were called twice around at 3:30 a.m. by a scared young woman and they found Efren Carrillo “with his pants down" lurking around her house. This is not the first, or even second time, that Carrillo has been involved in such a scandal. Meanwhile we have no representation. Remember that old American Revolutionary slogan, "No taxation without representation?" Maybe we should stop paying our taxes until we get a 5th District representative. :) Then the courts would promptly jump on us.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

Why don't we sit tight until the facts of this strange situation come out fully? ... The truth will come out..

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I find it fascinating that many of the same people who over the years have posted their distrust of the police and the Press Democrat are calling for Efren's head because of what the police said as reported by the Press Democrat.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

... when the police were called twice around at 3:30 a.m. by a scared young woman and they found Efren Carrillo “with his pants down" lurking around her house. ...

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Thank you Edward, Shepherd, and All for your passionate concern for the future of Sonoma County...I disagree with some on the future path ahead; but respect your opinions and contributions. Always liked the toast, "Here's to you and here's to me and if perchance we disagree, then here's to you and here's to me" :toast:

Shepherd, Edward, Barry, John Box and whoever would care to join us, I would love to have the honor of sitting down at Hopmonk in the spirit of fellowship and concern for the future, and "discuss" the future. The first rounds on me :0) .

I would share a favorite scene from a favorite movie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4ylZzL__u1k

Favorite quote "Every little act of kindness is the hope of the world."
Doctor in "The Ninth Configuration"

How's next week after 5:00pm @ Hopmonk look for y'all??

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

I appreciated the graceful tone and content of Tom Lynch's 4:35 response yesterday. I think for Edward and Tom to share a good, local beer at Hopmonks would be a good idea, which is what lawyers taking contrary sides of a case have been known to do. As Edward does, I also park a few blocks away and then walk around after being at Hopmonks. Both Tom and Edward are long-time committed Sonoma County activists, both of whom I respect, though I have disagreed with both of them at times. If I would be welcome at such a sharing, I would certainly come. I hope that we can find more ways to disagree without being disagreeable or making personal attacks and come back together, win or lose on this particular issue. I will do my best to do so. We will have a lot to deal with in the future. No need to burn bridges and hold grudges because we disagree on some matters.

---

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

Shepherd, Edward, Barry, John Box and whoever would care to join us, I would love to have the honor of sitting down at Hopmonk in the spirit of fellowship and concern for the future, and "discuss" the future. The first rounds on me :0) . ...
How's next week after 5:00pm @ Hopmonk look for y'all??

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Works for me! In fact it's perfect, since I'll be there anyway for Tom Finch Group and Achilles Wheel show (a Barry's Pick! :thumbsup::thumbsup:) . I look forward to a friendly, open minded and interesting discussion, followed by some really great music! Thanks Tom!

Friday works for me.

Edward

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

How's next week after 5:00pm @ Hopmonk look for y'all??

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To all Posters:

Let us not forget that the Press Democrat endorsed Efren's campaigns both in 2008 and 2012.
Quite frankly, when this story first broke, I was surprised -- no, I take that back -- SHOCKED that
they even printed the story after giving him such strong back-to-back endorsements. I never thought I'd
live to see the day when they would do that.

And let us further not lose sight of the fact that the law-enforcement unions were among his biggest backers and
contributors to both of his campaigns.

Could it be that both this story -- and his conduct -- were simply too big to ignore?

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Dear Jon Box,
“The truth will come out,” you say, so we should just "sit tight" for the legal system without also using the court of public opinion. I doubt that we will ever know the full truth, since Efren Carrillo's handlers now have even more than a month to be buying people off with their big bucks. It has not always been the case that "the truth will come out" in my nearly 70 years on this planet. You have much more faith in the legal system than I do to bring justice. I have more trust in mass movements...

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Shepherd,

Please don't blithely toss out a few left wing platitudes which, although they may have some merit, seem trite and irrelevant in this context. The fact that the cops did show up, questioned Efren with full knowledge of who he is, decided his story didn't add up, then arrested him and put him in jail refutes what you just said. Then the PD screams out the story. Is this your dark establishment at work? If I were a cynic (well, more of a cynic), I might argue he landed in the slammer because he was a young Hispanic male. In fact, that is the reaction I would expect from the far left end of the spectrum. Instead, the far left calls for his resignation without giving Efren the benefit of the doubt until the full story comes out, or even constitutional due process. Very curious indeed. Not very progressive either.

There has been lots of wild speculation about what could have happened, silly conspiracy set-up scenarios involving cointel and perhaps even reptilian overlords and the Trilateral commission and yada yada yada ad nauseum ad infinitem. Here's one for your consideration: the second 911 call was the woman saying never mind its my neighbor, he identified himself, everything's OK and no need to send the police. Maybe this happened, maybe not, but if it did it will come out when the facts of this case are released. Efren may just be guilty of being an idiot while drinking. I have been guilty of that many times, especially when I was much younger.

You may not believe this but I am on the fence on this issue. If Efren was truly up to no good and the facts warrant his resignation or dismissal, I will support that. The fact that this had dragged on for a month and Efren wants 2 more weeks to get his shit together does not sit well with me. It troubles me that no information is forthcoming from the police, the DA, the woman involved, and especially Efren himself. It is starting to stink. I emailed Susan Upchurch that Efren has to be upfront about what went down and if he tries to bullshit the public it is not going to be pretty. We are going to get the truth, Shepherd, you watch. But until then you do nobody any good by pre-judging the situation.

As soon as a person argues with a universal term like "most people", I am suspicious of everything that follows.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

...But most people want Carrillo to relinquish the charge of representing us because he is unfit to be supervisor...

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Yes, Efren did win the 2012 fifth-district-supervisor's race with 58.4 percent of the vote.

Conceded.

Which just goes to prove what I've been saying for years now: Once they're in the chair,
it practically takes a crowbar -- or a scandal -- to pry them out.

Jbox,

Let me say again that there is nothing silly about the suspicion of Cointelpro tactics within the political arena .. it's a program that is meant to take down politically active minorities, among others, .... this is one of the most effective tactics ( quoted from the following article ) ... "dissemination of false accusations ( which resulted in people being fired from jobs and tenured professors being sacked )" ....

https://rense.com/general28/thesonofcointelpro.htm

By all accounts Cointelpro is alive and well, in fact it's actually thriving given the loose constraints of the Patriot Act ... the recent spying scandal only supports this observation ...

This program is so ruthless in it's destructive objectives, and affecting so many Americans, that the matter is now under investigation by the United Nations Department of Torture ... honestly, knocking off someone like Efren would be a piece of cake ...

You see while we have been working hard to achieve brotherly love and wholesome non-toxic living, the military has been working hard to develop techniques to control human behavior ... this is a recent interview with Robert Duncan which might be enlightening ... it's long but fascinating, a real eye-opener for those concerned with government manipulation of politicians and political groups ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4yvuUZtxEE

I'm not saying that this is what happened to Efren, it's only one possibility out of many, but since we are locked in debate about this very bizarre political event, then it can't hurt to educate oneself about the very real threat of government manipulation and how that science has progressed ....

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

There has been lots of wild speculation about what could have happened, silly conspiracy set-up scenarios involving cointel and perhaps even reptilian overlords and the Trilateral commission and yada yada yada ad nauseum ad infinitum.

---

The Sonoma County Democratic Party issued a statement today that included:

"If the details of this case have thus far been portrayed accurately, we believe that Supervisor Carrillo's behavior fails to meet the standard of conduct we expect from our elected officials, and he should resign."

I agree!

Here is the article in the Press Democrat:

https://pressdemocrat.com/article/20...lo-resignation

Press Release: Sonoma County Democratic Party Statement on Supervisor Efren Carrillo’s Arrest

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August 14, 2013

(Santa Rosa, CA) The Sonoma County Democratic Party (SCDP), at the August 13 meeting of its Central Committee, approved release of the following statement on the arrest of Sonoma County Supervisor Efren Carrillo:

As a Central Committee, we believe elected officials need to be held to a very high standard. For a Supervisor to be arrested is always a matter of serious concern. In this case, the circumstances described by the Santa Rosa Police Department that led them to recommend charging a sitting Supervisor with a felony raise grave concerns for the victim.

As Democrats, we believe that everyone should be able to feel safe in his or her community, and this especially extends to women feeling safe in their own homes. We can only imagine how afraid the woman who called 911 – not once, but twice – must have been. The person who was arrested as a result of those calls was Efren Carrillo. The Santa Rosa Police Department stated that they found him dressed only in his underwear and socks.

As Democrats, we also believe in the due process of law. Affording legal protection to the accused is at the heart of our democracy. Efren Carrillo is entitled to present his defense in a court of law. However, if the details of this case have thus far been portrayed accurately, we believe that Supervisor Carrillo’s behavior fails to meet the standard of conduct we expect from our elected officials, and he should resign. Like all citizens, Supervisor Carrillo has the right to publicly defend himself.

Getting a little defensive, Shepherd, when people disagree. I have to say that in our few meetings, you literally ran away from me when I disagreed with an emotional interpretation.
Perhaps a hard time with disagreement? Maybe not. We don't have all the facts.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Your accusatory language like "lynch mob" is hardly "reasonable." There is no attempt to lynch anyone but to pressure an elected official to stop hiding and speak up. We voters deserve that. Efren Carrillo is obviously hiding something. I am angry and do not intend to "cool" until he resigns or is recalled. What is reasonable is that Mr. Carrillo speak to his constituency, rather than hide from us. He was caught with "his pants down," literally, as other politicians have been, figuratively. He is no longer believable. I do not intend to be silenced by your name-calling.

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I agree with this ... thanks for posting it ...

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Press Release: Sonoma County Democratic Party Statement on Supervisor Efren Carrillo’s Arrest

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Today's long Press Democrat article on the Dems decision last night includes the following paragraphs by the party chair Stephen Gale, which distinguish between "a legal standard" and a "standard of conduct," which is what I and others have been trying to argue. Taking "a position sooner rather than later," seems important, so that the 5th District will have a representative. It is also important "to stand with the woman involved," said Julie Combs, which we have been arguing. The vote was 17 to 3 to ask Carrillo to resign, which may represent the sentiments of a wide part of Sonoma County.

That article is worth reading, in spite of the fact that it appears in a newspaper owned partly by one of Efren Carrillo's main financial and political sponsors, the powerful Doug Bosco.
...
“The threshold is really not a legal standard. It’s a standard of conduct,” Gale said. “We’re extremely concerned based on the information that’s available so far.”
Some central committee members said they felt the party needed to stake out a position sooner rather than later.
“I think it was important to stand with the woman involved and say that if this is accurate, he should resign,” said Julie Combs, a Santa Rosa councilwoman who serves as an alternate on the central committee and who participated in the meeting.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

I agree with this ... thanks for posting it ...

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Efren Carrillo's support among the Latino community also seems to be eroding, according to the following paragraphs in today's PD article.

"Before the meeting, the committee received about a dozen letters from individuals and organizations, Gale said. Most called for Carrillo’s immediate resignation, including one from the Sonoma County Latino Democratic Club, Gale said.
The Latino club is set to take up the issue itself next week, Gale said."

As Democrats, we also believe in the due process of law. Affording legal protection to the accused is at the heart of our democracy. Efren Carrillo is entitled to present his defense in a court of law. ... Like all citizens, Supervisor Carrillo has the right to publicly defend himself.

Amen! ... all other actions are an attack on our constitutional rights and democracy ...

Hi Ya'll

OK, Barry, Edward, Shephard, Jon, Sebastacat, et cal...Hopmonk Tavern, Friday Aug,23rd...First rounds on me :).

L

Tom Lynch
..looking forward to a collegial discussion:banana:

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Works for me! In fact it's perfect, since I'll be there anyway for Tom Finch Group and Achilles Wheel show (a Barry's Pick! :thumbsup::thumbsup:) . I look forward to a friendly, open minded and interesting discussion, followed by some really great music! Thanks Tom!

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I appreciate the invitation of Tom and his framing of it as "a collegial discussion." I want to put the discussion of the Efren Carrillo situation behind us. So I have a request that we discuss other matters. For example, what we have in common, rather than what separates us, such as the love of Sonoma County. My proposal for what I would like to discuss, which I realize may not be of interest to all, would be the following. What other than Mr. Carrillo's unfortunate situation would the rest of you like to discuss? I particularly want to avoid name-calling and personal attacks, on Mr. Carrillo or anyone else.
Shepherd, also known as Santiago

Got manure?

There are few things more important to me than politics. Manure is one of them. So I would love to converse with Tom, “Manure Man, “ about that subject, Edward, Barry, sebastacat, Jon, Sandy, and others over beers at Hopmonk. This may not interest most of you, except the other farmers and gardeners. For my part, I would like to avoid talking about the Efren Carrillo situation, and thus get into a debate.

Tom has done us a favor by bringing the word “manure” into public discourse, as playwright Eve Ensler did with her play “Vagina Monologue.” We can now say both words in public, at least here in our beloved Sonoma County. I am actually more interested in gender politics and manure than I am in electoral politics. I consider Eve Ensler, whose work has been translated into many languages and performed in over 100 countries, to be the greatest living playwright in the English language.

During my last 20 years here at Kokopelli Farm I have used tons of the following manures: chicken, horse, llama, goat, sheep, and rabbit. My favorite is composted chicken manure, since it has the most nitrogen.

Horse manure is the most easily available for free, but it has the most seeds, which become weeds. So cow manure is better, since they have more stomachs and break the seeds down more. Digesting is good.

I use lots of manure, leaves, wood chips, grass clippings, and other organic mater to fertilize, mulch and compost my organic berries. So if you have too much of any of them, lets communicate and consider how to get what you have from your place to my place, which is slightly south of Sebastopol, up Bloomfield Rd., a few minutes from Hardcore Coffee.

I realize that this is more manure details than most of you want, but I want to make my priorities clear.

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

..looking forward to a collegial discussion:banana:

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Dear Shepherd,

Looking forward to a broad range of discussions...my particular interest is "intergenerational equity"...I'm looking for a better term on this one.

Basically we are in the midst of a debacle of epic proportions, whereas we have failed to set aside near enough to fund the retirement obligations of our public servants, and now as a consequence there are massive cuts in all the essential services government once was able to provide for generations.

The next generation are being burdened more and more to fund obligations the first wave of retiring baby boomers created without funding them, and the social consequences are disastrous. Of all 58 County's in the State, Sonoma County is perhaps in the worst condition.

L

Tom L

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

So I have a request that we discuss other matters. For example, what we have in common, rather than what separates us, such as the love of Sonoma County.

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“It's important to show restraint and not rush to judgment at such an early stage in the process,” said Eric Koenigshofer, a former county supervisor, central committee member and political adviser to Carrillo. “Nobody really knows what happened yet.”

Really, Barry. We can do better.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

The Sonoma County Democratic Party issued a statement today that included:

"If the details of this case have thus far been portrayed accurately, we believe that Supervisor Carrillo's behavior fails to meet the standard of conduct we expect from our elected officials, and he should resign."

I agree!

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I've not seen anyone argue against standing with the woman involved. I believe we all agree with that so you've no right to claim any ownership to that position.
.
Regarding Combs' comment, "if this is accurate, he should resign,” Combs goes on to say "We can't go further than that right now because it's a big "if". Efren has the right to due process. He has a right to state his side", which is what I and others have been arguing.

You continue with "That article is worth reading, in spite of the fact that it appears in a newspaper owned partly by one of Efren Carrillo's main financial and political sponsors, the powerful Doug Bosco." So I infer that the PD is worth reading when you agree with it, otherwise it's a biased rag. If your positions truly had the moral high ground you seem to crave I don't believe you'd find it necessary to cherry pick partial statements made and present them out of context so that they appear to reinforce your position. You have made no bones about your opposition to Carrillo well before this situation occurred. We all agree that should these allegations prove true he should indeed resign or be booted out. What you've truly been arguing is that the man doesn't deserve his day in court, whether the standard is legal or ethical. Show a little more honesty please.

We can do better choosing our next supervisor, I hope.......,,

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Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:

Really, Barry. We can do better.

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Dear Foti,
Various people have called for a truce in all the name calling. I am sorry that you feel the need to continue doing so.

I make no claim of "ownership" to any position I take. I am glad that we agree on some things, even if we emphasize different aspects of this struggle.

I have never said that Efren Carrillo does not deserve his day in court; he does. Nor did I oppose Mr. Carrillo "well before this situation occurred." If you can prove that allegation, I would welcome it. I have said during these discussions that he is a talented and skilled person. He has made some mistakes, as I have.

All publications have their biases and strengths, including the PD and those for which I write. Agreeing with some of what they write and disagreeing with others does not mean that one is dishonest or lacks morality. Because people differ, that does not make them immoral or dishonest. I read the PD most days and recommend it to others. I do not consider it a "rag." It has a long and distinguished publishing record. I especially respect some of its reporters. I hope that we do not lose this and other print publications, as some predict.

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

Show a little more honesty please.

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As with Tom, I am interested in discussing "intergenerational equity." I recently saw an alarming statistic--the current debt of college students is greater in the U.S. than the entire credit card debt. Some college students graduate with a six figure debt, no job, and have to move back with their family. This is alarming and will have many long-term negative impacts on our country. Many of my college students get despondent when they consider the future that we are leaving them. Who benefits? Bankers and the financial institutions.

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

Looking forward to a broad range of discussions...my particular interest is "intergenerational equity"...I'm looking for a better term on this one.

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In the article which appeared in the Press Democrat last night on line and this morning in print regarding the statement issued by the Sonoma County Democratic Party involving whether or not Efren Carrillo should resign his position as fifth-district supervisor, the following sentence was included:

"The Latino Club is set to take up the issue next week."

In fact, yesterday afternoon, on August 14, at 3:15 p.m., Laura Gonzalez, who is a member of that club and I believe a past president, was on Station KSRO and announced that the Sonoma County Latino Democratic Club is, in fact, calling for Supervisor Efren Carrillo's resignation.

I thought that all Waccobbians who have been following this extremely important matter should be aware of this latest development.

Effen (sic) Carrillo wasn't important or threatening enough for anyone to bother; I have always believed, however, that John Lennon's death was orchestrated, since he was the only person in the world who could have (and was) urging millions of people to mobilize for peace.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

Jbox,

Let me say again that there is nothing silly about the suspicion of Cointelpro tactics within the political arena ..

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That is perceptive of you Meherc, and Shepherd, stick to sheep because not only do I perceive this as a witch hunting lynch mob, but also a group of people who are caught up in a blood lusting feeding frenzy not unlike a school of sharks; and I'm sure there will be other victims on these pages in future, once you have finished off your present target.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by meherc:

Getting a little defensive, Shepherd, when people disagree. I have to say that in our few meetings, you literally ran away from me when I disagreed with an emotional interpretation.
Perhaps a hard time with disagreement? Maybe not. We don't have all the facts.

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I believe the quote was "lynch Mob Mentality", and we could quibble about the difference and intended meaning of that, but I do also see that there are those here on this thread that are carrying on a mob like mentality. They are quick to defend their position and attempt to weaken the position of those who disagree with it. They are encouraging others to follow their lead to demand resignation with continued ranting as well as heart felt belief. That seems to me more like a torch and pitchfork mob mentality than a lynch mob mentality. (or maybe just a hot debate)

There may well be those who are ready to take up the torch and follow that lead.

I haven't made up my mind about the situation yet.
I am waiting for all of the available facts to come out.

It won't be long.
There will be plenty of time for a re-call if it is warranted. (I don't believe he will resign)

For me, Life is too short to get all angry, hot and bothered, but you are indeed welcome to if you'd like.

Tom

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Your accusatory language like "lynch mob" is hardly "reasonable." There is no attempt to lynch anyone but to pressure an elected official to stop hiding and speak up. We voters deserve that. Efren Carrillo is obviously hiding something. I am angry and do not intend to "cool" until he resigns or is recalled. What is reasonable is that Mr. Carrillo speak to his constituency, rather than hide from us. He was caught with "his pants down," literally, as other politicians have been, figuratively. He is no longer believable. I do not intend to be silenced by your name-calling.

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Once again, we do not have the facts of this case ... we do not know what Efren was working on when these two incidents occurred ... like others on this forum I am in favor of suspending judgement until certain facts are known ... the ideas I've presented are only possibilities given the current climate of covert action against those that are politically active ...

Yes, it is a fact that John Lennon was harassed because of his peace stance ... this world is ruled by money not concern for it's residents ...

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Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

Effen (sic) Carrillo wasn't important or threatening enough for anyone to bother; I have always believed, however, that John Lennon's death was orchestrated, since he was the only person in the world who could have (and was) urging millions of people to mobilize for peace.

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Posted in reply to the post by tomcat:

... I do also see that there are those here on this thread that are carrying on a mob like mentality. They are quick to defend their position and attempt to weaken the position of those who disagree with it. They are encouraging others to follow their lead to demand resignation with continued ranting as well as heart felt belief. That seems to me more like a torch and pitchfork mob mentality than a lynch mob mentality. (or maybe just a hot debate)...

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when a thread has deteriorated to the point where a central feature of many posts are speculations about the motives or beliefs or psychological state of other posters, rather than about the issue at hand, it's a sign that it's been beaten to death. It may exhibit the dead-cat bounce now and again, but I think any life has been sucked out of it.

The part that is troubling for me is the way in which Efren Carrillo was hustled into rehab so quickly. That felt like complete damage control. Most of the public, I would presume, must have been shocked. As time goes on, people's emotions tend to settle down. In other words, Carrillo supporters are hoping that the public can get used to the "idea" of him being a recovering alcoholic - if that, in fact, is his problem. After rehab, Efren can present himself to the public as getting well which might convince enough people that there's been no real damage. And I'm not sure that the real truth will come out. I think this is what Efren and his supporters are truly hoping for. The "minimal damage" issue which has been thoroughly addressed in rehab.

I think many of your observations are probably pretty accurate. Most of us, called to service by a true friend or family member, would likely also try to mitigate the catastrophe to the best of our ability. Particularly if they were aware of a growing personal problem that seemed to be escalating. Hustling someone into treatment on short notice by those closest to a person is by definition an intervention. From what few facts we do have it seems likely that Efren's people had more than enough reason for these actions. Some are no doubt political but that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't more compelling reasons as well.

An aspect of this conversation that has surprised me is how few people here seem to fully understand the nature of alcoholism and the alcoholic. Certainly not to recommend it but there are very, very many "high functioning" alcoholics in the world and I would guess the political arena likely has a greater percentage of these folks than most other walks of life. Virtually all our Founding Fathers functioned in a society that fostered this behavior. There are likely way more alcoholics in public life who don't wipe out while in office and serve us well as there are those that fall from grace. This situation may well save Efren's life now that there's no hiding from it. Even should he be convicted of the worst of these allegations and wind up in jail, if he's in fact an alcoholic and getting treatment, it could be his well hidden silver lining, if not his just desserts.

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Posted in reply to the post by dominus:

The part that is troubling for me is the way in which Efren Carrillo was hustled into rehab so quickly. That felt like complete damage control. Most of the public, I would presume, must have been shocked. As time goes on, people's emotions tend to settle down. In other words, Carrillo supporters are hoping that the public can get used to the "idea" of him being a recovering alcoholic - if that, in fact, is his problem. After rehab, Efren can present himself to the public as getting well which might convince enough people that there's been no real damage. And I'm not sure that the real truth will come out. I think this is what Efren and his supporters are truly hoping for. The "minimal damage" issue which has been thoroughly addressed in rehab.

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Hey, can I come, too? What time?

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

OK, Barry, Edward, Shephard, Jon, Sebastacat, et al...Hopmonk Tavern, Friday Aug,23rd...First rounds on me :).

Tom Lynch
..looking forward to a collegial discussion:banana:

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Of course you are invited, Sara! This is not just another old, white male get together for drinking alcohol at a local bar. And getting to meet you in person for the first time will be a pleasure after so many years of a merely electronic acquaintance.

But I'm not aware of any specific hour, though. And the only rule is to talk about anything except Carrillo. That's going to be hard to do but I'll try.

Edward

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Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

Hey, can I come, too? What time?

Sara

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I think that we need to set a time. Any proposals? I hope that Sandy Eastoak might also join us, as she has been an important contributor to this conversation. Do we need any other ground rules, like no name-calling or personal attacks? I also look forward to the face-to-face contact, which changes the possibilities. I would also like to avoid much talking about Efren Carrillo.

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

Of course you are invited, Sara! This is not just another old, white male get together for drinking alcohol at a local bar. And getting to meet you in person for the first time will be a pleasure after so many years of a merely electronic acquaintance.

But I'm not aware of any specific hour, though. And the only rule is to talk about anything except Carrillo. That's going to be hard to do but I'll try.

Edward

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

I think that we need to set a time.

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Tom had thrown out "after 5", this Friday, Aug 23rd, at the Hopmonk, which sounds good to me. Tom assures me that indeed "the first round" is on him

:toast:

, so you might want to get there on the early side if you don't want to miss that!

This is a wacco-community wide gathering. Everyone is invited! I'll try to get a reserved area at the Hopmonk outside. There's lots to talk to about and it would be good to meet everybody.

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Do we need any other ground rules, like no name-calling or personal attacks?

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I expect this to be a social gathering even though local politics will be on many of the participant's minds. So yes, please mind your manners!

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I would also like to avoid much talking about Efren Carrillo.

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That's your prerogative, Shepherd. As this is likely a largish gathering (over 10 for sure, could be over 25) I think most of the discussions will be informal among small groups. If there's interest, and it seems feasible, we'll try to pull together brief circle where everybody has a short time to share comments and questions. The topic that Tom called out was "the future".

I look forward to discussing matters concerning Efren, "intergenerational equity", Sonoma Clean Power (one of Efren's pet projects), fluoride, and anything else that comes to mind! Cheers!

I hope you'll stick around for the Tom Finch Group and Achilles Wheel concert at 9pm.

Efren was charged with the misdemeanor of "peeking" today. I have started a new thread called "Efren charged with "misdemeanor peeking" in General Community to discuss this. I am closing this thread.