Lolchan,
Unfortunately, the Belfort Group has ignored a common-sense approach to solving the conundrum they were faced with. There exists a segment of aviation enthusiasts known as "contrailspotters", hobbyists with cameras mounted on telescopes who collect high-resolution photos of planes making contrails, much as birdwatchers do with birds. One of their most prolific members resides in Belgium, the same airspace as the Belfort Group, and he displays photos at his website which demonstrate that it is indeed possible to positively identify the aircraft seen making "chemtrails".
site(scroll down and choose "United States Air Force", or any other common carrier): https://www.skystef.be/contrail.htm
The question left begging is, since such technology is demonstrably available, why has Dr. Vermeeren or any other chemtrails promoter never taken advantage of it?
There is another tech available to ordinary people for remote sensing and ID of the planes seen making 'trails. Flight tracking software has been available for over a decade, and this user was able to identify 100% of 42 flights making "chemtrails" over Las Vegas last year as ordinary commecial passenger flights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvXVvahXw4M
Mark Walker Evans, I declare you've been had in one of the Great Hoaxes of this century!
02-10-2012, 04:33 PM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Article: The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails
Very sad to tell you that this is the sort of reaction that has occurred as a result of this hoax.
This fellow is obviously tormented and has resorted to polluting the air he breathes by releasing all sorts of chemicals into the air at his homemade 'shrine' in a futile attempt to "kill chemtrails". Those responsible for
this sick hoax need to understand that there is a price to pay in human misery when you falsely tell people they are being poisoned.
Famed scientist, Edward Teller, who at the time worked at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California and took part in the development of the Atomic Bomb and was the co-inventor of the Hydrogen Bomb, was the first scientist that came up with the theory that if you sprayed metallic particulates in the upper atmosphere you could cool the earth. A top geo-engineering scientist, Ken Caldeira (Stanford University), who worked with Teller at the time, stated at the American Association for the Advancement of Science Annual Meeting in February 2010, that Teller tried to obtain funding for researching his theory but was unsuccessful.
It’s now apparent that the U.S. government has implemented Teller’s theory by spraying megatons of particulate heavy metals and chemicals like aluminum, titanium, barium, strontium and sulfur hexafluoride into the stratosphere.
Click here for a pdf of Dr. Teller's "Global Warming and Ice Ages: Prospects for Physics-Based Modulation of Global Change"document (20-23 August, 1997 , 22nd International Seminar on Planetary Emergencies, Erice (Sicily)
Facts and Background Information Hughes Aircraft Patent #5,003,186 -
In 1991 a U.S. patent was issued to Hughes Aircraft Company; the Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding For Reduction of Global Warming Patent (#5,003,186). It proposed injecting into the upper atmosphere, a “very fine, white talcum-like” powder of aluminum oxide, barium oxide and other oxides for the stated purpose of reducing Global Warming”.
“On October 2, 2001, Rep. Dennis Kucinich introduced the “Space Preservation Act of 2001″ (HR 2977), which called for the elimination of “exotic weaponry” from space. Among the weapons to be banned were "weather- modifying weapons such as … chemtrails.” Though it was later amended to remove the word chemtrails, the original bill acknowledging this technology remains on the pages of the Congressional Record.”
Public awareness is growing rapidly about the S.A.G. programs. In February 2010, Geo-engineering scientists from around the world met in San Diego. One of the main topics of discussion at the American Association for the Advancement of Science annual meeting was, “Can Geo-engineering Save Us From Global Warming?”
As a result of that meeting, geo-engineering scientists are researching creating an “aluminum shield around our planet” dumping yearly 10 to 20 megatons of aluminum oxide into our skies and upper atmosphere.
However, there is now substantial evidence and documentation that the S.A.G. programs have been ongoing for many years by our government and has had a devastating affect on our health and the environment.
A Lake Shasta sample from Pit River Arm tributary tested at 4,610,000 ugl (ugl=ppb or parts per billion), over 4,610 times the maximum contaminant level (MCL) for aluminum in drinking water for the State of California. A pond in Shasta County, in a “filtered location”, tested “0” for aluminum when filled. After 1 ½ years exposure to the atmosphere, the pond tested at 375,000 ug/L or 375 times the MCL.
In addition, a snow pack sample taken from Mt. Shasta tested at 61,100 ug/L or 61 times the (MCL) for aluminum in drinking water for State of California.
Tree bark from dying trees has recently tested positive with aluminum, barium, strontium and titanium.
Here is a Video specifically on the Subject of how the fallout from Chemtrails has critically impacted the vicinity of Shasta:
Aluminum and barium are being found in dangerous levels in water and soil samples taken nationwide. Respiratory and neurological illnesses have risen dramatically and asthma is near epidemic levels in children. Numerous studies have connected aluminum exposure to neurological damage (like Alzheimer’s) and a host of other diseases. Other related illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia and multiple-chemical sensitivities have steadily risen since the deployment of these on-going programs.
The low-dose, long-term, exposure to these toxic chemicals and heavy metals has a devastating affect on our health by destroying our immune system and making people more vulnerable to disease and critical/ chronic illnesses. Recent heavy metal testing shows off-the-chart ranges of toxic chemicals and heavy metals like aluminum and barium in young children.
The content of the fallout from these aerosols includes fibers, metal particulates and biological elements which have been detected through environmental testing. These micro-particles enter into our bodies and weaken our immune system, making us more acceptable to chronic illnesses both physically and psychologically.
According to N.A.S.A., the world has seen a 20% loss of sunlight and geo-scientists now admit that aerosol spraying forms man-made clouds that spread to create a sky shield. The sky shield reduces sunlight and is called “global dimming”.
Blocking the sun negatively affects our crops and forests by reducing the amount of sunlight needed for photosynthesis. This causes a reduction of crop production. In addition, aluminum, barium, strontium and titanium has been detected in tree bark of weak and dying trees through certified laboratory tests. Our trees and plants are rapidly declining because of this environmental stress which make the trees vulnerable to fungus and pests.
In addition, aluminum is very detrimental to soils, changing PH levels and is lethal to many forms of aquatic life.
According to the National Center for Atmospheric Research, the only way to form artificial clouds in warm dry air is to introduce enough particulates into the atmosphere to attract and acrete all available moisture into visible vapor. If repeated often enough, the resulting rainless haze can lead to drought.
Atmospheric conductivity and lightning strikes have increased dramatically since the apparent onset of these programs. Metallic particles increase atmospheric conductivity, increasing lightning frequency and intensity.
“Stratospheric aerosols”, are proposed by Geo-scientists, as a way to manage solar radiation and climate change by aerosol spraying sulfates, aluminum, barium and other fine particulates into our upper atmosphere.
The aerosol spraying of metal particulates also reduces solar intake as much as 70% on heavy spray days. This is caused because the man-made clouds and the sky shield blocks the sunlight.
Military To Own The Weather In 2025 –
The U.S. military has openly stated that it is their goal to “OWN THE WEATHER” by 2025. They are capable of affecting and controlling storms and the earth’s electrical balance. They can manipulate radio frequencies and the electromagnetic spectrum for military and surveillance purposes. They can alter human awareness and behavior.
A research paper presented to Air Force 2025 in April 1996 states in part, “One advantage of using simulated weather to achieve a desired effect is that unlike other approaches, it makes what are otherwise the results of deliberate actions appear to be the consequences of natural weather phenomena. In addition, it is potentially relatively inexpensive to do." According to J. Storrs Hall, a scientist at Rutgers University.”
The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program ( H.A.A.R.P. ), located in Alaska, is a military surveillance operation that generates electromagnetic frequencies. There are other facilities like H.A.A.R.P. throughout the world. Their activity, combined with the spraying of aerosols, may be the primary reason for “climate change/global warming." H.A.A.R.P. is capable of deliberately altering our climate and environment. In addition, it can alter human awareness and behavior.
THIS ISSUE WILL NOT GO AWAY UNTIL MORE PEOPLE STAND UP AND DEMAND ANSWERS; TAKE ACTION TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEM; AND CORRECT THE DAMAGE THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE TO OUR PLANET EARTH - DAMAGE THAT WILL LAST FOR CENTURIES! ARE YOU DOING YOUR PART ?
It has been documented, as far back as the late 1980’s, that the United States (U.S.) Government has been conducting covert S.A.G. programs.
No evidence supports this claim. Below is a point-by point refutation of the claims made.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by lolchan:
It’s now apparent that the U.S. government has implemented Teller’s theory by spraying megatons of particulate heavy metals and chemicals like aluminum, titanium, barium, strontium and sulfur hexafluoride into the stratosphere.
The opposite is true. The "Chemtrails are geoengineering" hypothesis says that geoengineering has been taking place in the form of aircraft placing aerosols of various substances in the atmosphere to ameliorate global warming by blocking sunlight.
If, in fact, such a geoengineering program were being implemented, such a program would result in an increase in aerosol density in the atmosphere.
The facts show that earth's Global Aerosol Optical Thickness(AOT) has been decreasing during the time frame that the chemtrails hoax has been around, and specifically a downward trend has resulted in an AOT which by 2005 had reached a 30 year low.
Furthermore, current AOT is the same as recorded in the 1960's, fifty years ago.
Current aircraft being photographed making purported "chemtrails" are seen flying at ordinary commercial jet altitudes in the troposphere, NOT in the stratosphere where geoenegineering proposals would be implemented. These aircraft cannot fly into the stratosphere and conduct geoengineering, they are not capable of such altitudes!
In 1991 a U.S. patent was issued to Hughes Aircraft Company; the Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding For Reduction of Global Warming Patent (#5,003,186). It proposed injecting into the upper atmosphere, a “very fine, white talcum-like” powder of aluminum oxide, barium oxide and other oxides for the stated purpose of reducing Global Warming”.
You will search in vain for any reference to barium oxide in the patent. You will find aluminum oxide and thorium. The origin of the gambit that barium is part of "chemtrails" has an unsavory origin. This claim was created as a hoax by A.C. Griffith and several others many years ago when they fabricated a story that they were a group of CIA and NSA whistleblowers. The story has no merit, these were ordinary individuals who were shown to have modified website pages to make it appear they had secret knowledge when in fact what they displayed had come from 'Popular Mechanics' and various University websites, nothing secret at all, and nothing ever pertained to barium. In short, they pulled off a fantastic hoax which has become part of the chemtrails mythos. My full accounting of that story is found here: https://metabunk.org/threads/210-How...ium+chemtrails
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by lolchan:
Space Preservation Act -
“On October 2, 2001, Rep. Dennis Kucinich introduced the “Space Preservation Act of 2001″ (HR 2977), which called for the elimination of “exotic weaponry” from space. Among the weapons to be banned were "weather- modifying weapons such as … chemtrails.” Though it was later amended to remove the word chemtrails, the original bill acknowledging this technology remains on the pages of the Congressional Record.”
The actual wording of HR2977 was created by two new-age friends of Kucinich, who was quite embarassed that he was not made aware of the wording. When he found out that chemtrails were in a SPACE treaty, he removed it.
see: https://contrailscience.com/kucinich...s-and-hr-2977/
Quote:
See: Earth Island Journal: Stolen Skies: The Chemtrail Mystery at:
A Lake Shasta sample from Pit River Arm tributary tested at 4,610,000 ugl (ugl=ppb or parts per billion), over 4,610 times the maximum contaminant level (MCL) for aluminum in drinking water for the State of California. A pond in Shasta County, in a “filtered location”, tested “0” for aluminum when filled. After 1 ½ years exposure to the atmosphere, the pond tested at 375,000 ug/L or 375 times the MCL. In addition, a snow pack sample taken from Mt. Shasta tested at 61,100 ug/L or 61 times the (MCL) for aluminum in drinking water for State of California.
These tests sampled water contaminated with soil, which in the Mt. Shasta area is known to contain aluminum, barium, and strontium. Some samples are labeled 'sludge' not water, and the snowfall sample was taken from dust-laden snow in mid-summer. Aluminum makes up about 7-8% of earth's crust and rainfall sampling from the 1960's and 1970's showed an average of 800 ug/L, the average of all the Mt. Shasta rainfall and snowfall tests is 400 ug/L.
see details of the Mt. Shasta tests: https://metabunk.org/threads/137-Sha...ium+chemtrails
and ordinary chemicals found in rain and snow: https://metabunk.org/threads/135-Che...ium+chemtrails
barium in soil and water: https://metabunk.org/threads/247-Wha...ium+chemtrails
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by lolchan:
Aluminum and barium are being found in dangerous levels in water and soil samples taken nationwide. Recent heavy metal testing shows off-the-chart ranges of toxic chemicals and heavy metals like aluminum and barium in young children.
The content of the fallout from these aerosols includes fibers, metal particulates and biological elements which have been detected through environmental testing. These micro-particles enter into our bodies and weaken our immune system, making us more acceptable to chronic illnesses both physically and psychologically.
Visit: www.environmentalvoices.org – “Health Tips” on ways to protect your health.
Clifford Carnicom has a long history of making claims which he does not support with real evidence.
He is currently involved with a very sick element among the "chemtrails" promoters which has coerced many people into a delusion that they are infected with parasitic creatures. He has established an "Institute" in Santa Fe where he performs human experimentation including 'extractions' of the supposed parasites.
see: https://metabunk.org/threads/398-Dis...ull=1#post4481
According to NASA, the world has seen a 20% loss of sunlight and geo-scientists now admit that aerosol spraying forms man-made clouds that spread to create a sky shield. The sky shield reduces sunlight and is called “global dimming”.
This claim is dated. As noted above, global dimming during the 1980's has been replaced by a decrease in aerosols and "global brightening" replaced that trend. Here is what NASA actually says: https://www.livescience.com/240-scie...ect-earth.html
Quote:
Crop Reduction -
Blocking the sun negatively affects our crops and forests by reducing the amount of sunlight needed for photosynthesis. This causes a reduction of crop production. In addition, aluminum, barium, strontium and titanium has been detected in tree bark of weak and dying trees through certified laboratory tests. Our trees and plants are rapidly declining because of this environmental stress which make the trees vulnerable to fungus and pests. In addition, aluminum is very detrimental to soils, changing PH levels and is lethal to many forms of aquatic life.
As tree bark is able to collect wind-blown soil in its crevices, it is not at all unusual to find ordinary crustal elements in such bark. The promoters of this gambit have not established a baseline for ordinary levels of elements within tree bark, and thus cannot claim any trend showing an increase in such elements.
Aluminum is a natural component of soils and a major component of clays, it cannot change soil ph. Francis Mangels is the source of much of these claims, my factual analysis of his claims is here: https://metabunk.org/threads/154-The...al-Examination
Quote:
According to the National Center for Atmospheric Research, the only way to form artificial clouds in warm dry air is to introduce enough particulates into the atmosphere to attract and acrete all available moisture into visible vapor. If repeated often enough, the resulting rainless haze can lead to drought
No evidence for this claim is provided. It does not even make logical sense. Clouds are made of water and will not be formed in dry air, no matter what amount of particulates are introduced!
Quote:
Atmospheric conductivity and lightning strikes have increased dramatically since the apparent onset of these programs. Metallic particles increase atmospheric conductivity, increasing lightning frequency and intensity.
No documentation for this claim is presented. As noted above, total, startospheric and tropospheric particulates show no increase from the ordinary.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by lolchan:
“Stratospheric aerosols”, are proposed by Geo-scientists, as a way to manage solar radiation and climate change by aerosol spraying sulfates, aluminum, barium and other fine particulates into our upper atmosphere.
Proposed, yes, but proposal does not equal implementation. As noted above, data shows no implementation, and what is being seen as purported "chemtrails" are NOT in the stratosphere, they are ordinary commercial aircraft incapable of stratospheric flight.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by lolchan:
The aerosol spraying of metal particulates also reduces solar intake as much as 70% on heavy spray days. This is caused because the man-made clouds and the sky shield blocks the sunlight.
Ordinary persistent contrails are man-made ice crystal cirrus clouds. These clouds have been known for decades to increase cloudiness. This is nothing new.
A 1980 NBC broadcast described the issue: https://contrailscience.com/1980-nbc...-on-contrails/
Quote:
The U.S. military has openly stated that it is their goal to “OWN THE WEATHER” by 2025.
The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (H.A.A.R.P), located in Alaska, is a military surveillance operation that generates electromagnetic frequencies. There are other facilities like H.A.A.R.P. throughout the world. Their activity, combined with the spraying of aerosols, may be the primary reason for “climate change/global warming. H.A.A.R.P. is capable of deliberately altering our climate and environment. In addition, it can alter human awareness and behavior.
German scientists and meteorologists have exposed and are taking legal action against the German government for weather manipulation and counterfeiting satellite and radar imagery to mask the scope of those operations.
No evidence for this claim, again.
Lolchan, I challenge you to debate any of my presentation above. My knowledge of the chemtrails hoax is intimate, extensive, comprehensive, and encyclopedic. Your knowledge seems to strictly come from chemtrail believer sites. They will not tell you what I have laid out above, they will not address critical information about their claims for obvious reasons.
You can lay the blame for your inability to debate the subject on those who have misinformed you. Do not blame me for the false belief they have inculcated you into. It is long past time for the promoters to clean their house but time has shown them unwilling to do so. One day I see a fine book in my future describing people like you and those whom have influenced you. Mark down this prediction:
"One day you will look yourself in the mirror and realize you've been had, and regret the waste of each precious day of your life you spent believeing in chemtrails"
02-12-2012, 07:01 AM
jbox
Re: Article: The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails
Jay,
I appreciate your eminently documented responses to the chemtrails hoax. Now, if you have any insight into dreaded smartmeters would you please, please, please share it? Debunking voodoo science is a good thing!
Lolchan, I challenge you to debate any of my presentation above. My knowledge of the chemtrails hoax is intimate, extensive, comprehensive, and encyclopedic. Your knowledge seems to strictly come from chemtrail believer sites. They will not tell you what I have laid out above, they will not address critical information about their claims for obvious reasons.
You can lay the blame for your inability to debate the subject on those who have misinformed you. Do not blame me for the false belief they have inculcated you into. It is long past time for the promoters to clean their house but time has shown them unwilling to do so. One day I see a fine book in my future describing people like you and those whom have influenced you. Mark down this prediction:
"One day you will look yourself in the mirror and realize you've been had, and regret the waste of each precious day of your life you spent believeing [sic] in chemtrails"
Sure, I’ll take you on, Mr. Reynolds, and engage in a debate with you. But I refuse to engage in the kind of debate that you have already begun - that of the ad hominem attack. Nor do I wish to quibble with you about minutia, or particulars; e.g., the “holes” that you have allegedly “found” in my two prior postings on this thread.
But indeed, if you wish to put me on the spot with a challenge, I will also challenge you: to prove, if you can, that "Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering", “persistent contrails” - or “chemtrails” as they are colloquially termed, have no substantial Reality, independent of "virtual reality" on the internet, but are, instead a “hoax” , as you have declared.
I, for my part, will be glad to appear on the same venue with you and simply do a slide show, with an old-fashioned slide projector and with the aid of a computer and a media projector. I will give a lecture on the subject of :
“How to discern the difference between a 'chemtrail' and a contrail; and 'persistent contrails' from natural cloud formations.”
Here are the terms of the debate I would be willing to engage in :
1) That it be in a public place; an auditorium of some capacity, with the facility of either a full-sized, or at least a very large Screen. And also, that it happen here, in Sonoma County, this year, sometime in June, around the time of the Summer solstice.
2) That both parties { both you & I} refrain from ad hominem attacks – that is, attacks against the thought processes or the powers of perception of the other party.
3) That we stick to the subject before us, in our own lectures:
You, to “prove” that "Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering" & “Chemtrails” do not exist, but are a “Hoax” - as you have stated;
I, to show with visual, photographic evidence, that anyone can verify with their own eyes, that “chemtrails” - also known as "persistent contrails", are, in fact, a very Real phenomenon; indeed, an almost daily occurrence in our skies.
4) That the “debate" be conducted according to Robert’s Rules of Order, inasmuch as each of us be given equal time, both to lecture, and also to field questions from the audience. Also, at the end, to ask and answer questions of each other, and also to allow the audience, once again, to ask questions of each of us.
5) I reserve the right to sit at a small table, in the middle of the seated audience, and to operate the slide projector and the media projector from that vantage and situation myself, flashing images onto the screen – a large Screen, as I have stipulated - on the stage. And also, to allow the audience to engage with me in an inter-active manner, with questions and answers concerning each and every slide, and/or video sequence, after it is displayed on the screen.
I would like very much to have such a debate; that is, if such a “debate” can be arranged by some local promoter, or social body willing to sponsor it. Towards this end, I welcome any help that others might be willing to lend; down to various pictures & video clips of chemtrail spottings.
Very sincerely,
Mark Walter Evans
by the way,
my internet handle is "iolchan" not "Lolchan."
& I would appreciate it if you would refrain
from addressing me as such, in the future.
02-13-2012, 04:01 PM
podfish
Re: Article: The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Iolchan:
.. I, to show with visual, photographic evidence, that anyone can verify with their own eyes, that “chemtrails” - also known as "persistent contrails", are, in fact, a very Real phenomenon; indeed, an almost daily occurrence in our skies.
I'd probably attend, but I don't think pictures of clouds are going to do it for me. If the conspirators have indeed managed to prevent anyone with any connection to mainstream academia or businesses engaged in some sort of aerospace business from talking in public, they've got me successfully duped. Same as for global warming.
A couple of voices on the fringes of the field aren't going to do it. There have been those, with Daniel Ellsberg and "Deep Throat" as examples, who were (relatively) lone voices when they started. But in both cases, not only did they provide evidence but they showed the way more evidence could be accumulated. That's not happening here - only claims that we don't understand the evidence already in front of our eyes.
02-13-2012, 05:18 PM
daynurse
Re: Article: The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails
Mark,
Reluctantly I'll step in here. One impression I have about Jay Reynold's responses to you and to everyone on WACCO is how respectfully he is conducting his arguments. There is no ad hominem attack that I can perceive in his writing. You are using the term inaccurately when you describe it as meaning: "attacks against the thought processes or the powers of perception of the other party." Any good discussion or debate questions the thought processes and perceptions of the person with whom you disagree.
What I keep seeing in your responses is a resistance to listening and valuing the other person's idea. I just can't think of a time when I've believed my learning was finished and, after 65 years, I hope it never is. I don't believe anyone, even you has all the final answers, Mark.
Here is the official definition of ad hominem:
ad ho·mi·nem /æd ˈhɒmənəm ‐ˌnɛm, ɑd-/ Show Spelled[ad hom-uh-nuhm ‐nem, ahd-]adjective 1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
I'm pretty sure Jay is not a local but found WACCO during a google search for Larry Wayne Harris. Frankly, I think the idea of a debate is not interesting.
Now, on to more important issues.
Peggy
02-14-2012, 12:12 AM
Dixon
Re: Article: The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails
Hi Mark;
It was nice to visit with you briefly in the Safeway parking lot the other night.
This is another thread that I'm not willing to devote a lot of time to thoroughly researching. I don't put anything, however nefarious, beyond "our" government, but most if not all the claims of "chemtrail" conspiracies are unconvincing to me so far. This is particularly true now that Jay has apparently substantially refuted your claims with what appears at first glance to be well-researched facts, and neither you nor anyone else has even tried to refute his refutations.
FWIW, just a couple of comments:
First, Jay has not launched an ad hominem attack on you or anybody here. He has mounted a seemingly pretty good attack on your claims, but attacking one's claims is not an ad hominem (personal) attack; it's called "reasoning".
Second, please note that the "debate" format you describe would be a pointless waste of time, because your showing people a bunch of slides of con/chemtrails would not address the claims that are under dispute (i.e., that there are "chemtrails" which are different from normal contrails; that these can often be distinguished from normal contrails by visual observation which would reliably ascertain that unusual flight patterns and appearance or dispersal of contrails would be proof they're "chemtrails" rather than normal contrails under varying atmospheric conditions; that such "chemtrails" have nasty components not present in normal contrails; and that this activity is part of a nefarious harmful conspiracy). Just to be clear, I'm saying that even if all these claims are true, showing people pictures of "chemtrails" could not possibly prove those claims except to the most gullible. So your attempt to limit your participation in the debate to little more than showing and discussing these pictures seems evasive. It's time for you to refute Jay's point-by-point refutations of your points, or to concede that he may be right.
02-14-2012, 04:42 AM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Article: The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails
Mark,
Pardon for me misspelling your moniker on this forum. I am aware that what you posted was not original work, and that you are capable of independent thought and writing, as I've seen elsewhere. Sorry I won't be able to travel over 1000 miles to personally debate with you. Wish I could. Others have pretty much expressed what I had to say, but probably most important was the self-evident fact that you haven't shown in any way where my analysis of Deborah Whitman's claims were wrong.
You actually boiled down your perception issue to one sentence:
Quote:
“How to discern the difference between a 'chemtrail' and a contrail; and 'persistent contrails' from natural cloud formations.”
I'll boil it down to an essence even simpler:
"What is the difference between an ordinary "contrail" and a "chemtrail"?
I'm familiar with the meme, and how you've been taught that if one persists beyond a certain time, or subsequently spreads out, it is considered a "chemtrail".
But let's go further.
Show us factually and logically, not by heresay or intuition, exactly what factors or thought process you personally use to visually perceive the difference.
(For the sake of Clarity, I have left my original words in Black, shaded Mr. Reynolds points of contention inRed, and set my present, point by point answers in Green...)
No evidence supports this claim. Below is a point-by point refutation of the claims made.
iolchan suggests clicking on the links embedded in the clear text above, and doing :
Google Advanced Search:"George H. W. Bush" , chemtrails , 1989 Google Search: chemtrails , 1984
iolchan wrote:
It’s now apparent that the U.S. government has implemented Teller’s theory by spraying megatons of particulate heavy metals and chemicals like aluminum, titanium, barium, strontium and sulfur hexafluoride into the stratosphere.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
The opposite is true. The "Chemtrails are geoengineering" hypothesis says that geoengineering has been taking place in the form of aircraft placing aerosols of various substances in the atmosphere to ameliorate global warming by blocking sunlight.
If, in fact, such a geoengineering program were being implemented, such a program would result in an increase in aerosol density in the atmosphere.
The facts show that earth's Global Aerosol Optical Thickness(AOT) has been decreasing during the time frame that the chemtrails hoax has been around, and specifically a downward trend has resulted in an AOT which by 2005 had reached a 30 year low.
Furthermore, current AOT is the same as recorded in the 1960's, fifty years ago.
Current aircraft being photographed making purported "chemtrails" are seen flying at ordinary commercial jet altitudes in the troposphere, NOT in the stratosphere where geoenegineering proposals would be implemented. These aircraft cannot fly into the stratosphere and conduct geoengineering, they are not capable of such altitudes!
Lastly, current tropospheric and ground level particulate and aerosols show steady downward trends, our air quality is steadily improving.
iolchan answers: "Current aircraft being photographed making purported "chemtrails" are seen flying at ordinary commercial jet altitudes in the troposphere..." Yes, it is quite so, most chemtrails are observed in the troposphere. Never-the-less, iolchan suggests clicking on the links embedded in the clear text above, and :
GoogleSearch:chemtrails , aluminum, titanium, barium, stratosphere, strontium , Google Advanced Search:"Dr. Edward Teller" , chemtrails, geoengineering ,
In order to examine all viewpoints on the debate about Global Aerosol Optical Thickness,
Click here for a pdf of Dr. Teller's "Global Warming and Ice Ages: Prospects for Physics-Based Modulation of Global Change"document (20-23 August, 1997 , 22nd International Seminar on Planetary Emergencies, Erice (Sicily)
iolchan wrote:
In 1991 a U.S. patent was issued to Hughes Aircraft Company; the Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding For Reduction of Global Warming Patent (#5,003,186). It proposed injecting into the upper atmosphere, a “very fine, white talcum-like” powder of aluminum oxide, barium oxide and other oxides for the stated purpose of reducing Global Warming”.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
You will search in vain for any reference to barium oxide in the patent. You will find aluminum oxide and thorium. The origin of the gambit that barium is part of "chemtrails" has an unsavory origin. This claim was created as a hoax by A.C. Griffith and several others many years ago when they fabricated a story that they were a group of CIA and NSA whistleblowers. The story has no merit, these were ordinary individuals who were shown to have modified website pages to make it appear they had secret knowledge when in fact what they displayed had come from 'Popular Mechanics' and various University websites, nothing secret at all, and nothing ever pertained to barium. In short, they pulled off a fantastic hoax which has become part of the chemtrails mythos. My full accounting of that story is found here:
"You will search in vain for any reference to barium oxide in the patent. You will find aluminum oxide and thorium."
Quite true, no mention of Barium in this particular patent. Does that mean that it's alright with Jay Reynolds if they're just spraying aluminum oxide and thorium?
There is a wealth of material if one does a Google Search of the words : barium oxide, chemtrails, patent
"...The origin of the gambit that barium is part of "chemtrails" has an unsavory origin. This claim was created as a hoax by A.C. Griffith and several others many years ago when they fabricated a story that they were a group of CIA and NSA whistleblowers. The story has no merit, these were ordinary individuals..."
What if it were found - were proven, independently of Mr. A. C. Griffith and several others - that there actually isBarium in the fallout from Chemtrails? Now wouldn't that be something?
Quite aside from being a prima facie example of ye olde ad hominem attack, this passage would almost certainly be a cause of action by Mr. A.C. Griffith - to sue Mr. John Boyd Reynolds aka, "Jay" Reynolds, for Libel, whether he, {Mr. Griffith} actually ever was in the C.I.A. or the N.S.A. or not. That's because it is a very serious thing to "fabricate" a "hoax" - and an equally serious offence to falsely accuse another of fabricating -and/or- knowingly peddling a "hoax." O well, what does it all mean?
Google Advanced Search: C.I.A., "black propaganda" , chemtrails, Google Advanced Search:C.I.A. , "inside outside job" ,
“On October 2, 2001, Rep. Dennis Kucinich introduced the “Space Preservation Act of 2001″ (HR 2977), which called for the elimination of “exotic weaponry” from space. Among the weapons to be banned were "weather- modifying weapons such as … chemtrails.” Though it was later amended to remove the word chemtrails, the original bill acknowledging this technology remains on the pages of the Congressional Record.” See: Earth Island Journal: Stolen Skies: The Chemtrail Mystery at:
The actual wording of HR2977 was created by two new-age friends of Kucinich, who was quite embarassed that he was not made aware of the wording. When he found out that chemtrails were in a SPACE treaty, he removed it. see: https://contrailscience.com/kucinich-...s-and-hr-2977/
Earth Island Journal published my rebuttal of William Thomas' article here:
I have dealt with this internet legend earlier, on the other thread; the one entitled "Reporter seeking "unbiased" information about Chemtrails". Here is how it played out:
Someone wrote:
...Apparently Kucinich didn't read the bill well enough before he endorsed it. It sounds like it came from UFO enthusiasts, and Kucinich later modified the bill, saying "“I’m not into that. Understand me. When I found out that was in there, I said, ‘Look, I’m not interested in going there.’”
HR2977 is constantly being mentioned solely to make the case that “chemtrails” are something the government is aware of. The reality is that they were simply given a passing mention in bill [sic] written by new-age UFO conspiracy theorists and sponsored by an eccentric politician, all of who [sic] believe in things that are far more unusual than “chemtrails”....
To which I responded, and do respond :
iolchan wrote:
"Apparently Kucinich didn't read the bill before he endorsed it." You have got to be kidding. Kucinich is a lawyer. He wrote the bill; himself. To suggest that he was not aware of the contents of this bill, before he "endorsed it," is just ludicrous. And furthermore, technically, Kucinich did not "endorse" this bill; he both wrote it and introduced it, before Congress. Unfortunately, It died in Committee. It was the Path not taken. And Yes, Dennis Kucinich later did rewrite the Bill, eliminating the mention of Chemtrails...
Kucinich later modified the bill, saying "“I’m not into that. Understand me. When I found out that was in there, I said, ‘Look, I’m not interested in going there.’”
iolchan wrote & does write :
In Reality, the Truth is a little darker than that apocryphal story, or those apocryphal words, which are falsely attributed to Dennis Kucinich, who is a good man. In real time, Kucinich was leaned on by Boy Bush, who made him an offer he couldn't refuse. After being shown the horse's head in the bed, Kucinich rewrote the Bill, without the word "chemtrails." After that, in all probability, Kucinich was enjoined - a legal term - not to speak, or write anything about what had happened. Capische?
As it was, the timing - in 2001 - was a little late, anyway. All of the technology mentioned in the Bill, (HR 2977)"Space Preservation Act of 2001″, was already in place. Much of it had been developed during the 'eighties, under the "Star Wars"program. It is all very operational, Now, and We the People are the Enemy.
Google Advanced Search: "star wars program" , chemtrails
Google Advanced Search:Kucinich , chemtrails, "HR 2977"
Quote:
The Honerable Dennis Kucinich, Congressman,
Lawyer, sapient Human Being, mentsch, wrote:
(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:
(i) Damaging or destroying an object (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--
(I) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object;
(II) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object;
(III) directing a source of energy (including molecular or atomic energy, subatomic particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency (ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation) against that object; or
(IV) any other unacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means.
(ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)--
(I) through the use of any of the means described in clause (i) or subparagraph (B);
(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or
(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.
(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--
(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(ii) chemtrails;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.
(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.
"HR2977 is constantly being mentioned solely to make the case that “chemtrails” are something the government is aware of. " - Mick West of contrailscience.com
To suggest that the government isnot"aware of" chemtrails, when there are upwards of seven million, two hundred eighty thousand hits on the word "Chemtrails" on Google at this date, is either totally absurd, and makes no sense at all...Or else it is disinformation. Pick your poison.
When you open up the website, contrailscience.com you will find that this is what Mick West, the webmaster of that site says about himself:
Quote:
ContrailScience.com is just a place where I write about both contrails and science – which also includes some looking at the “chemtrails” theory, and the pseudoscience associated with it.
My name is Mick West, I’m a private pilot (in training, I have a solo certification, and have flown a 150 mile solo flight). I’ve been training out of Santa Monica airport, so I know the airspace round here. I like writing, and figuring things out. See something odd in the sky? Let me know.
I’m not a scientist, or a meteorologist, but I like to think that what I post is comprised of independently verifiable facts. You can check the facts yourself. If you find ANY error on this site, then let me know and I will issue a correction immediately.
I’m not paid for this. I do not work for anyone in conjunction with this site. I’m just some guy.
So much for the "scientific" credentials of the webhost at "contrailscience.com" .
A Lake Shasta sample from Pit River Arm tributary tested at 4,610,000 ugl (ugl=ppb or parts per billion), over 4,610 times the maximum contaminant level (MCL) for aluminum in drinking water for the State of California. A pond in Shasta County, in a “filtered location”, tested “0” for aluminum when filled. After 1 ½ years exposure to the atmosphere, the pond tested at 375,000 ug/L or 375 times the MCL.
In addition, a snow pack sample taken from Mt. Shasta tested at 61,100 ug/L or 61 times the (MCL) for aluminum in drinking water for State of California.
These tests sampled water contaminated with soil, which in the Mt. Shasta area is known to contain aluminum, barium, and strontium. Some samples are labeled 'sludge' not water, and the snowfall sample was taken from dust-laden snow in mid-summer. Aluminum makes up about 7-8% of earth's crust and rainfall sampling from the 1960's and 1970's showed an average of 800 ug/L, the average of all the Mt. Shasta rainfall and snowfall tests is 400 ug/L.
Google Search: tree, bark , aluminum, barium, strontium , titanium , Here is a Video specifically on the Subject of how the fallout from Chemtrails has critically impacted the vicinity of Shasta:
The low-dose, long-term, exposure to these toxic chemicals and heavy metals has a devastating affect on our health by destroying our immune system and making people more vulnerable to disease and critical/ chronic illnesses. Recent heavy metal testing shows off-the-chart ranges of toxic chemicals and heavy metals like aluminum and barium in young children.
The content of the fallout from these aerosols includes fibers, metal particulates and biological elements which have been detected through environmental testing. These micro-particles enter into our bodies and weaken our immune system, making us more acceptable to chronic illnesses both physically and psychologically.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
Not true at all. In fact, the major promoters of "chemtrails", including the producers of "What In The World Are They Spraying", a chemtrails propaganda movie, actually SUGGESTconsumption of aluminum oxide on a daily basis and claim to do so themselves. see:
This is very dubious, Jay, but let the public examine the on-line debate, & look into it further:
Google Advanced Search:aluminum, barium, children, chemtrails
Meanwhile, I wish to state, for those who have ears to hear, that these sites that Mr. Reynolds keeps referencing, - megabunk & "contrailscience" - seem to me to be the flip side of the so-called "conspiracy-theory" websites. The flip side of the dialectic, that is; Skepticism for Dummies, 101... as opposed to... Conspiracy Theories for Dummies, 101...
iolchan wrote:
The content of the fallout from these aerosols includes fibers, metal particulates, and biological elements which have been detected through environmental testing. These micro-particles enter into our bodies and weaken our immune system, making us more acceptable to chronic illnesses both physically and psychologically.
Clifford Carnicom has a long history of making claims which he does not support with real evidence.
He is currently involved with a very sick element among the "chemtrails" promoters which has coerced many people into a delusion that they are infected with parasitic creatures. He has established an "Institute" in Santa Fe where he performs human experimentation including 'extractions' of the supposed parasites.
Another ad hominem attack, in order to discredit the opposition. How do we know that the power elite are not cooking up plagues for us at Fort Detrick, Maryland?
iolchan suggests clicking on the links embedded in the clear text above, and doing : Google Advanced Search: morgellons, chemtrails
You have found by experience, Mr. Reynolds, that all you have to do is make allegations that Dr. Carnicom is wrong, and lo, people believe you. Like Rudolf Kastner, you, also know that people do not want to believe that a modern day holocaust could be happening.Perhaps it would be best - and a bit more objective - if you kind folks would be just a little less credulous, and go to the Horse's Mouth, Clifford Carnicom's website, & judge for yourselves.
According to N.A.S.A., the world has seen a 20% loss of sunlight and geo-scientists now admit that aerosol spraying forms man-made clouds that spread to create a sky shield. The sky shield reduces sunlight and is called “global dimming”.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
This claim is dated. As noted above, global dimming during the 1980's has been replaced by a decrease in aerosols and "global brightening" replaced that trend. Here is what NASA actually says: https://www.livescience.com/240-scien...ect-earth.html
iolchan suggests clicking on the links embedded in the clear text above, and checking out :
Google Advanced Search:"global brightening" , "global dimming", aerosols
Blocking the sun negatively affects our crops and forests by reducing the amount of sunlight needed for photosynthesis. This causes a reduction of crop production. In addition, aluminum, barium, strontium and titanium has been detected in tree bark of weak and dying trees through certified laboratory tests. Our trees and plants are rapidly declining because of this environmental stress which make the trees vulnerable to fungus and pests.
In addition, aluminum is very detrimental to soils, changing PH levels and is lethal to many forms of aquatic life.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
As tree bark is able to collect wind-blown soil in its crevices, it is not at all unusual to find ordinary crustal elements in such bark. The promoters of this gambit have not established a baseline for ordinary levels of elements within tree bark, and thus cannot claim any trend showing an increase in such elements.
Aluminum is a natural component of soils and a major component of clays, it cannot change soil ph. Francis Mangels is the source of much of these claims, my factual analysis of his claims is here:
Atmospheric conductivity and lightning strikes have increased dramatically since the apparent onset of these programs. Metallic particles increase atmospheric conductivity, increasing lightning frequency and intensity.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
No documentation for this claim is presented. As noted above, total, startospheric [sic] and tropospheric particulates show no increase from the ordinary.
iolchan suggests clicking on the link embedded in the clear text above.
Here was the answer, Mr. John Boyd Reynolds, in the very next paragraph; but you deleted it. I have supplied references:
Military To Own The Weather In 2025 –
The U.S. military has openly stated that it is their goal to “OWN THE WEATHER” by 2025. They are capable of affecting and controlling storms and the earth’s electrical balance. They can manipulate radio frequencies and the electromagnetic spectrum for military and surveillance purposes. They can alter human awareness and behavior.
A research paper presented to Air Force 2025 in April 1996 states in part, “One advantage of using simulated weather to achieve a desired effect is that unlike other approaches, it makes what are otherwise the results of deliberate actions appear to be the consequences of natural weather phenomena. In addition, it is potentially relatively inexpensive to do." According to J. Storrs Hall, a scientist at Rutgers University.”
These claims are unfounded by substantive scientific research. They are promoted by Nick Begich, who purchased his "doctorate" by mail order from Sri Lanka.
Another example of an ad hominem attack. Mention the alleged non-credentials of one advocate of the thesis in order to nullify the whole field of inquiery. This is the slash and burn school of journalism. Stoning the messenger of bad tidings. Very fashionable these days...
Now looky here: If Mr. Reynolds is saying that H.A.A.R.P. has no weather applications, let the people Google Advanced Search:aerosols, "global warming" , "H.A.A.R.P." ,
If he is saying that H.A.A.R.P. has no military use, whatsoever, let the people just Google Advanced Search:"H.A.A.R.P." , "beam weapons" , - {minus} "Nick Begich"
Let the people also, just click on the links that are embedded in the clear text above. There is documentation.
According to the National Center for Atmospheric Research, the only way to form artificial clouds in warm dry air is to introduce enough particulates into the atmosphere to attract and acrete all available moisture into visible vapor. If repeated often enough, the resulting rainless haze can lead to drought.
Jay Reynolds wrote: No evidence for this claim is provided. It does not even make logical sense. Clouds are made of water and will not be formed in dry air, no matter what amount of particulates are introduced!
Again - and this is important- click on the links I have embedded in the clear text above - and do your own research, yourselves.
lolchan wrote:
Solar Radiation and Climate Change –
“Stratospheric aerosols”, are proposed by Geo-scientists, as a way to manage solar radiation and climate change by aerosol spraying sulfates, aluminum, barium and other fine particulates into our upper atmosphere.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
Proposed, yes, but proposal does not equal implementation. As noted above, data shows no implementation, and what is being seen as purported "chemtrails" are NOT in the stratosphere, they are ordinary commercial aircraft incapable of stratospheric flight
iolchan answers:
" ...what is being seen as purported "chemtrails" are NOT in the stratosphere, they are ordinary commercial aircraft incapable of stratospheric flight."
This is gobbledegook :" ...what is being seen as purported "chemtrails" are NOT in the stratosphere";
And that, "ordinary commercial aircraft [are]incapable of stratospheric flight."
And Further, deconstructing that weird sentence, just a little, How could purported "chemtrails"ever, ever Be"ordinary commercial aircraft" ???
Google Advanced Search:“Stratospheric aerosols” , chemtrails , sulfates, aluminum, barium
Google Advanced Search: stratosphere, jet, planes,
Google Advanced Search: stratosphere , jet , planes , commercial
As Rady Anada wrote, in the Story that was chosen #9,of Project Censored, in their Top Ten Censored Stories of 2011, from a source that is very credible, Global Research, we find an article that does validate the present reality of "chemtrails," aka "Stratospheric Aerosol Geo-engineering" and elevates it out of the "conspiracy theory" category. https://waccobb.net/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Rady Ananda wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/image...post-right.png
"... At a recent international symposium, scientists asserted that “manipulation of climate through modification of cirrus clouds is neither a hoax nor a conspiracy theory.”
The only conspiracy surrounding geo-engineering is that most governments and industry refuse to publicly admit what anyone can see in the sky or discover in peer-reviewed research. The Belfort Group, has been working to raise public awareness about toxic aerial spraying – popularly known as chemtrails. However, scientists preferred the term ‘persistent contrails’ to describe the phenomenon, to move the inquiry away from amateur conspiracy theories.
The aerosol spraying of metal particulates also reduces solar intake as much as 70% on heavy spray days. This is caused because the man-made clouds and the sky shield blocks the sunlight.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
Ordinary persistent contrails are man-made ice crystal cirrus clouds. These clouds have been known for decades to increase cloudiness. This is nothing new. A 1980 NBC broadcast described the issue:
iolchan writes, in response: "Ordinary persistent contrails are man-made ice crystal cirrus clouds."
Perhaps - but then again, perhaps not. I will look more deeply into it. And so should You-uns [Plural.] It was my long-held understanding, that standard, classical "contrails" wereice-crystals, at either a very high altitude, or a very low {sub zero} temperature. Now, it seems the former definitions are in transit, for some odd reason.
According to the study made by the Belfort Group, who have "been working to raise public awareness about toxic aerial spraying – popularly known as chemtrails... scientists preferred the term ‘persistent contrails’ to describe the phenomenon, to move the inquiry away from amateur conspiracy theories." As far as I know, then, the term "persistent contrails" is the preferred scientific term for what are popularly known as "chemtrails" and has been fitted to be the proper designation, in the scientific community for such. It seems to me, John Boyd Reynolds, that you are trying to blur distinctions, and muddy the water.
"Lolchan, I challenge you to debate any of my presentation above. My knowledge of the chemtrails hoax is intimate, extensive, comprehensive, and encyclopedic. Your knowledge seems to strictly come from chemtrail believer sites. They will not tell you what I have laid out above, they will not address critical information about their claims for obvious reasons.
You can lay the blame for your inability to debate the subject on those who have misinformed you. Do not blame me for the false belief they have inculcated you into. It is long past time for the promoters to clean their house but time has shown them unwilling to do so. One day I see a fine book in my future describing people like you and those whom have influenced you. Mark down this prediction:
"One day you will look yourself in the mirror and realize you've been had, and regret the waste of each precious day of your life you spent believeing in chemtrails"
Sure, I'll take you on "Jay" Reynolds. In turn, I challenge You to prove, in a Live, personal Debate, that Chemtrails are a "Hoax", as you have stated!!
For my part, I perceive them as a Reality - and also as a very elaborate inside/outside Psy-Op {psychological operation.}
=And=
As for the rest of You; Just Check out the Links, Children - unless you really prefer living the Life of an Ostrich...
P.S.,
When you do a Google Advanced Search, open up your other browser, use the 100 hits function, copy and paste, and then scroll deep into the pile before you start selecting sites to open up. That is because the quirky, crazy stuff - the disinformation, the black propaganda - as well as the establishment hacks, government shills and paid "contras" are usually placed on the top of the pile. { Algorithms.}
Green Man,
Mark Walter Evans
02-17-2012, 06:07 PM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Article: The Unsavory Origins of Chemtrails
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jay Reynolds:
Mark,
Pardon for me misspelling your moniker on this forum. I am aware that what you posted was not original work, and that you are capable of independent thought and writing, as I've seen elsewhere. Sorry I won't be able to travel over 1000 miles to personally debate with you. Wish I could. Others have pretty much expressed what I had to say, but probably most important was the self-evident fact that you haven't shown in any way where my analysis of Deborah Whitman's claims were wrong.
You actually boiled down your perception issue to one sentence:
I'll boil it down to an essence even simpler:
"What is the difference between an ordinary "contrail" and a "chemtrail"?
I'm familiar with the meme, and how you've been taught that if one persists beyond a certain time, or subsequently spreads out, it is considered a "chemtrail".
But let's go further.
Show us factually and logically, not by heresay or intuition, exactly what factors or thought process you personally use to visually perceive the difference.
Your turn.
Jay
Hi, Mark,
Nice try to lead people into a lot of connect-the dots there. Most of what you get when you do your searches is just what Peggy had found before, chemtrail believers citing each other as if they had done something original. "Dr." Carnicom, come on! I called the USFS a decade ago and vetted the guy, he's no doctor. As for Dennis Kucinich, I called his office as soon as it came out and asked about the Act. No one in the office had a clue what chemtrails were. This is called original source gathering. Besides, I also contacted Webre and Rosin and asked them. They wrote the bill, just like they claim they did. Kucinich got caught out when he didn't know what was in there.
The funniest part of your presentation was the video excerpt from "What In The World Are They Spraying", where Dane Wigington is telling a horror story about his Koi pond being so toxic, it has 50,000 % higher aluminum than before. https://www.youtube.co/watch?v=pBgkrEMDA9o
Did you look very closely at that video?
Do some critical thinking?
I am supposing you didn't, and the producers didn't either.
For in that "toxic" water, what do you see calmly swimming around fat and happy?
Did you believe what the guy told you, even when your eyes show you fish are swimming around peacefully?
Are you a very careful observer, Mark?
Maybe, maybe not.......
Mark, what these people have told you has gotten you all upset, and has caused a lot of fear in a lot of people. Thankfully, most of the population hasn't caught the venereal disease of the mind that is "Chemtrails". In your case, it may have become a resident of your synapses long enough to become engrained, but I have hope that in ten years or so, you will continue to see but won't "believe" anymore.
Happy Trails!
Jay
02-20-2012, 12:43 PM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Mark:
Another
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Mark:
ad hominem attack, in order to discredit the opposition. How do we know that the power elite are not cooking up plagues for us at Fort Detrick, Maryland?
iolchan suggests clicking on the links embedded in the clear text above, and doing : Google Advanced Search:morgellons, chemtrails
You have found by experience, Mr. Reynolds, that all you have to do is make allegations that Dr. Carnicom is wrong, and lo, people believe you. Like Rudolf Kastner, you, also know that people do not want to believe that a modern day holocaust could be happening.Perhaps it would be best - and a bit more objective - if you kind folks would be just a little less credulous, and go to the Horse's Mouth, Clifford Carnicom's website, & judge for yourselves.
Mark, for various reasons I recognize that I didn't treat Caricom fairly. Maybe it was time, maybe because we have a long history which I just didn't feel like getting into. I can do better.
Clifford Carnicom is a great disappointment to me. I tried very hard to be objective in evaluating his claims, but he banned me from any venue possible, and partcipated in a campaign to have me silenced elsewhere, so there are some hard feelings. Here are two places where I was able to write about his 'work': https://goodsky.homestead.com/files/bariumreport.html
Some of the links, being 11 years old, are probably not working, but if you take the time to assess what I said, it still stands.
Carnicom had made a bad decision to send a package to the office of Carol Browner, EPA head, containing what he stated was an "unidentified substance". Note, do not send packages of such a nature to Cabinet level officials unless you really want an FBI file! Still, I spent a year and a considerable amont of work, using the FOIA to shame EPA into finally responding to him. Yes, they sent his 'sample' back and would not touch it, but he should have known better. Maybe that's what he actually wanted to happen? Maybe. https://goodsky.homestead.com/files/FOIA.html
But probably my greatest disappointment with Clifford is that he simply didn't apply himself seriously to the chemtrails conundrum. Here is my reasoning on that:
Clifford is certainly not a doctor, he does have an undergraduate science degree in Surveying and Photogrammetry. At the USFS, he practiced the art of closely analyzing high resolution satellite and aerial photography to determine land use decisions. He is an expert at photography and perfectly capable of putting that skill to use identifying the exact nature of the aircraft he claims are spraying. However, his only work in the field he is an expert in is this from 1999: https://www.carnicominstitute.org/articles/newspray.htm
A lousy, grainy, unresolvable photo, from before the turn of the century.
Eventually, hobbyists have taken on the challenge and succeeded in such high resolution photography, which Carnicom was always certainly capable of, given his skill set.
Try scrolling down and see the exceptional resolution of this man's photos, you can read the tail numbers on the USAF planes! https://www.skystef.be/contrail.htm
So, despite being an expert in the field, what would make a man ignore his own expertise and instead look downward into a microscope, put hair permanent solution on 'samples', dig into people's flesh searching for god knows what, declae that he has found a new organism, and even claim that chemtrails have changed the rotation of the earth? yes, he has done all of the above and more.
If Carnicom had really wanted to be of service to mankind, he could have ended this hoax in 1999 before it ever really got started. I think he knows he is seeing ordinary commercial jets. He dug himself in deep instead and can't find a way out. It probably strokes his ego to be called "Dr.", to have an "Institute" which he named after himself, and to get paid for speaking engagements like this one: https://curezone.com/forums/fmp.asp?i=17871
I, for my part, will be glad to appear on the same venue with you and simply do a slide show, with an old-fashioned slide projector and with the aid of a computer and a media projector. I will give a lecture on the subject of :
“How to discern the difference between a 'chemtrail' and a contrail; and 'persistent contrails' from natural cloud formations.”
"What is the difference between an ordinary "contrail" and a "chemtrail"?
I'm familiar with the meme, and how you've been taught that if one persists beyond a certain time, or subsequently spreads out, it is considered a "chemtrail".
But let's go further.
Show us factually and logically, not by heresay or intuition, exactly what factors or thought process you personally use to visually perceive the difference.
Your turn.
Jay
When one speaks or writes about Clouds and Contrails, there are two distinct phenomenal categories. Clouds, as we all know, "go back;" to pre-history. It is fair to say that clouds have been a Reality in the atmosphere of planet Terra for a long, long time. Eons, in fact. Can I get a consensus on this point?
Contrails, on the other hand, are a relatively recent phenomenon. Since they are, by definition, the frozen exhaust from jet airplanes, it is fair to say that they made their appearance around 1944, with the advent of the Jet airplane.
It is my position - and I do not term it a matter of "Belief" but rather, one of Observation - that there is a third category of Phenomena in our atmosphere these days, a phenomenon that is more recent than the "contrails" we all saw as children, and the clouds that have appeared in the air above our planet for many eons. And this phenomenon, popularly called "Chemtrails" and termed "persistent contrails" by the Belfort Group, and other scientists, is the subject of Inquiry of this discussion.
Because there are three categories, and not two, I would enlighten the readers as to the distinction between classical "clouds" and "chemtrail haze" - also called, in some quarters, "persistent contrails." If you have eyes to see, and time to wonder as you wander, you may see a whole mess of them, in the skies these days, and nights. And Yes, they also do spray at night.
As for myself, I first began paying attention to the damned things back in 1998, when an acquaintance, a building contractor in Marin, brought the issue to my attention. He said they were toxic, and that a lot of old people in his home church {Episcopalian/ San Rafael} were dying. He attributed the passing of these old folks to bacteriological, viral & chemical junk that, he alleged, was in the mix being sprayed.
So two points I must make, from the jump: [1] I saw the phenomena, myself. That is, I saw them with my own eyes, and paid attention, & took note of them, although I realized that I had been "seeing" them for years without ever really paying attention. [2] At first I was skeptical, very skeptical as to the spin that my acquaintance put on the meaning of this "new" phenomena. That is, I did not want to entertain the possibility that our government could be putting toxic junk, dangerous to the health and well-being of the public, into the common air that we all breathe.
It was at the beginning of the Second Gulf War, in the Spring of 2003, when I finally took considerable heed of the seriousness of the phenomenon known as "chemtrails." This was because the incidence of the damned things increased exponentially around the time that Boy Bush marched his sadly duped, brainwashed and mis-informed "christian soldiers" off to war, for "Operation Shock And Awe."
I live at the altitude of 1450 feet above sea level in the Mayacama Range, east of Santa Rosa. To the east of my house is a clear view of five miles across the canyon to the Napa County line. In the Spring of 2003, every morning, I began to notice these "persistent contrails" above the Ridge that divides Sonoma from Napa county.
I still see them, on a near daily basis. No, I am not hallucinating, Nor am I delusional or "paranoid." I did not catch some form of Wilhelm Reich's "emotional plague" nor have I been taken, in some modern form of "Extraordinary Popular Delusions & Madness of Crowds" described by Charles Mackay in his famous tome; some form of internet thought- virus originating in the twisted brain of some mid-western neo-nazi idiots.
In my opinion, it is a form of denial to palm the phenomenon of Chemtrails off on such a tawdry pair of idiots. Chemtrails themselves are Real. The origin of the Phenomena of Chemtrails goes back way before those two idiots ever wrote about them on the internet. "Chemtrails" originated in the twisted brain of Dr. Edward Teller, the father of the H-Bomb, the character who was the prime-original "Dr. Strangelove." And yes, I learned that by doing research on the Internet. Nanetheless...
In my opinion there is a basic cognitive error when one can not distinguish between Reality as it is, e.g., the Sky, the Air, et cetera, and "virtual reality" - i.e. the Internet. These are two distinct categories / columns of Phenomena, and Quite different.
"Chemtrails" - or whatever one chooses to call the damned things - have a reality that transcends everything that is blathered about them in cyberspace. Understand?
Truth be told, my own politics are very similar to Peggy Day's. My mother was one of the founders, and for years the head of the Oakland chapter of Women for Peace; I began my own career at Ban the Bomb marches, when I was eight, on August 6, 1958. {We marched around an area in San Francisco the size of the area directly devastated by the A-Bomb that hit Hiroshima.} I could go on and on and present you-all with a litany of my own political correctness. But I won't.
I was against fallout way back then, and I am still against it; Today, with this difference : Today, I find myself opposing and exposing the Fallout from Chemtrails; a distinct and very real hazard to the health and well-being of our planet.
Chemtrails are real, Children. Wake up.
Mark Walter Evans
02-20-2012, 10:57 PM
Iolchan
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Here is something I found on the Internet, from 2003, on an Indymedia website, from a leftist. Worth noting:
Folks, if they were spraying Chemicals over Iraq, people would be marching in the streets! But they are spraying us here, virtually every day, and...silence. Please look up, wake up and SPEAK OUT!!!
Amazing. So much great information on this site, and not a mention to the fact that the government is relentlessly spraying chemicals over our skies.
The Aerosol Chemical Spray Operation over the Skies of The Bay Area continues to this day.
Dear Readers of S.F. Indymedia,
It is important for you to know the truth.
The "Chemtrail" Spray Operation over our skies has been continuing relentlessly. This is real, and it is urgent for each and every one of you to educate yourself, and start looking up. You need to understand that they have gradually, over the past 5 years, increased the frequency of the spraying, so that we would be conditioned not to notice. As of many months now, they have been spraying every day. It is intense and relentless. They are spraying in front of people's eyes, in broad daylight, as well as above normal cloud patterns (and dispersed Chemtrails from earlier spraying) at night, and off shore. All of these have been reported and documented now repeatedly for months. Sadly, and very unfortunately, this is all true.
I realize that it is hard for people to conceive of, and the implications of this are very large. I also realize that we all have a need to be consistent with our personal belief systems, and that something so bizarre and scary like this is easier to discount than realize the truth of. This is understandable, and it is part of the psychological process that they know the majority of the population will go through. They know, that as the word gets out, only so many people will realize the truth of it, and they can keep the disinformation flowing to divert and confuse people. They have even been able to succeed with diverting and fooling the "left" about the issue.
It is the most amazing thing. Those who are against the war, environmentalists, even activists, are often unsure of the reality of what is going on day after day, right above their heads. This only gives credence to the power elite's ability to keep the people, all the people, distracted and asleep. This fact is way more scary than the Chemtrails to me. They are manipulating the "right" and the "left". Seriously, when you get a momentary glimpse beyond the illusion of dualities, "out of the matrix" so to speak, it is totally shocking. No other words can describe it. It becomes very clear what is being orchestrated on this planet, and it goes allot deeper than any particular war or any particular anything. There is an overlying agenda that is being carried out. It is not a pretty picture. We all have to wake up to this fact at our own pace, as it has to happen from within. Realizing that agenda is a very personal thing. Listen to anyone you want, but don't believe anyone. Do the research, and think and meditate, and be watchful. But wait until you can see it. Get enough dots together in your world, so the picture becomes crystal clear. Knowing, not believing.
For any federal agents reading this. bless you too. We are all in this together, and we all want the planet to survive. We all just want to live as peaceful a life as possible, in this short precious time we have on this earth, to raise our families, to raise ourselves.
We all breath the same air here. If it is true that various Chemicals are being systematiclly sprayed over us every day, we ALL are breathing it. Even cops. Even republicans. Even those who want to re-elect Bush. Even federal agents, and military personel.
Here's the bottom line. If the spray operation is for our own good, then why are they denying it.
Sending a prayer of peace to every person reading this now. Sending a prayer of peace to hearts of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfield, and the whole crew.
Sending a prayer of peace to those pilots, who day after day, are carrying out their orders to fly their airforce tankers across our sky and spray whatever it is they are spraying us with. They probably don't even know themselves.
And a prayer goes out for you reading this now:
That you educate yourself about the Chemtrails, start looking up, and realize what is happening. The majority of the clouds in our sky, are dispersed Chemtrails from earlier in the day.
You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Once you know, not believe...it is your turn to spread the word.
tag, your it.
Where awareness (light) exists, there can be no ignorance (darkness).
They ONLY reason that they are getting away with spraying us every day, gradually numbing us down, without so much as a whimper or a protest, is our ignorance.
Mark, it sounds like you are equating persistent contails with "chemtrails".
That is good, because there is no difference.
That is wh a full 20+ years before you noticed them at all, which was after your friend infected you with the hoax, John Chancellor was recognizing the issue of persistent contrails.
There are at least aesthetic reasons to not wish seeing this water vapor in the air, but why would you purposefully put a vast conspiracy to poison the world into the mix?
Lastly, your date for the earliest recognition for both contrails and persistent contrails is way off.
This was in 1919 and 1921:
"Our attention was first drawn to the sky by the sudden appearance of several strange and startling clouds–long, graceful, looping ribbons of white. These were tapering to a point at one end and at the other where they dissolved into nothingness 60 degrees across the sky, were about as broad as the width of a finger held arm’s distance from the eye. On close observation we noticed some distance ahead of each cloud point the tiny speck of a chasse [sic] plane…. [N]ever before had I seen a plane writing in white upon the blue slate of sky."
"
An altitude flight was made in the morning at McCook Field recently by Lieut. J. A. Macready in a La Pere with supercharged Liberty [engine]. When the airplane reached a height of 26,000-27,000 feet at 11:50 a.m., a long feathery white streamer was observed forming behind a rapidly moving dark speck. The cloud was of the cirrus variety, well defined at the edges and apparently 10 to 15 times the width of the plane. The sky behind the first portion was clear blue with no clouds in the near neighborhood. The first streamer seemed perhaps 2 miles long. Then a gap of one-quarter mile. The second streamer formed with a background of light cirrus cloud and after 2 or 3 miles the plane seemed to go into the cirrus background, for the streamer formation ceased while an apparent path of blue continued beyond for a way in the cirrus cloud. The whole streamer may have been 3 miles long. After 20 minutes the streamer had drifted and spread until it merged indistinguishably with the other cirrus clouds visible."
See, Mark, persistence, merging with existing cirrus clouds..........
sound familiar?
* There are at least aesthetic reasons to not wish seeing this water vapor in the air, but why would you purposefully put a vast conspiracy to poison the world into the mix?
* Are you a very careful observer, Mark?
* Current aircraft being photographed making purported "chemtrails" are seen flying at ordinary commercial jet altitudes in the troposphere, NOT in the stratosphere where geoenegineering proposals would be implemented.
When I first began posting on the other thread, I wrote :
Chemtrails are real. Whatever they may be, they are notice crystals, the frozen vapor trails we all used to see as children.
I remember the first time I ever noticed the contrails from the back of a high-flying jet. It was in the Summer of ‘56. I remember asking my mother what caused the jet to leave that vapor trail in the sky, and she told me; It was ice crystals.
Now, the vapor out of a jet will not turn into ice crystals until the jet is flying up high; in the stratosphere, at an altitude of at least ten thousand feet. You can verify that, or at least view the debate on this topic, here:
Google Advanced Search:contrails, "ice crystals", stratosphere
And here:
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "ice crystals", "ten thousand feet"
No, Chemtrails are something else again; Other than the vapor trails out of the back of a jet engine, that turn to ice at high altitudes. In the first place, Chemtrails are generally a low altitude phenomena. Where I live, at fifteen hundred feet altitude, facing the Ridge that is the Napa County line, the Chemtrails that are laid above the Ridge on most mornings appear to be at about five to six thousand feet in altitude - too low for Ice crystals to form from the vapor trail of a Jet engine.
The shiny white lines that are emitted out of the belly of the C-100's that fly out of Edwards Air Force base, soon fan into clouds, as the wind blows them eastward across the Napa valley. By the time they are over the Central Valley, they actually look like clouds. From where I live, I have watched part of this Process unfold; many, many mornings.
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "Edwards Air Force base",
Also – and this is very important - Chemtrails were not a daily regimen before the Year 1989; the first year that the George H.W. Bush was in Office. You can confirm that here if you choose:
"
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, 1989 ,
Some websites maintain that the Bush Family have a financial interest in the production of this aerial phenomena:
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "Bush Crime Family"
Some maintain that the purpose of the Chemtrails is for population reduction – the genocide of “useless eaters.”
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "population reduction"
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails , "useless eaters"
Google Search:chemtrails , genocide
That it is a form of biological warfare :
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "biological warfare"
That it is a Project connected with H.A.A.R.P. :
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "H.A.A.R.P."
And, some maintain, All the fuss is about nothing more than Weather Modification:
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "weather modification"
One thing for sure: There are now seven million two hundred ninety thousand (7,290,000) hits that come up when you Google the word Chemtrails at this time; October 2, 2011. { Note:Now, in late February, 2012, there are upwards of 7,700,000 hits on the subject.} That’s a lot of hits. I would suggest that there is something more happening here than just a simple “Popular Delusion” or that ol' “Madness of Crowds.” Where there is that much “smoke,”there is generally “fire” as well.
It must be that the people who do not notice the difference between the contrails we've seen throughout our lives, are very different than the GeoEngineered ones which have been increasing for the last several years; must be victims from some mass hypnosis, or are suffering from nature deficit syndrome. They just don't get out enough to notice what has changed through the Weather Modification program.
But I have never [yet] alleged in print that I "believe" {or "know"} that George H. W. Bush is the dark mastermind behind Chemtrails. Frankly, I do not know who is behind them, or what the purpose[s] of the damned things are. So far, in this thread, I have merely stated a few of the the various opinions that one may find in this field. That is what is known as Reporting. In dealing with the the Subject of the Phenomenology of Chemtrails, there are a lot of opinions... You, the Public, may do the research - and draw your own conclusions - for yourselves.
It is hardly "comforting" to entertain - even for a moment - the notion that rogue elements in the Federal government could be, or are, doing one iota of all the things that are alleged to be happening, regarding this issue of Chemtrails. So I hardly think that this point of your argument holds water. On the other hand, I completely agree with this sentence:
The alternative is to accept that you don't know what you don't know, and to make an effort to learn the facts - rather than the woo-woo.
- With the hope that you, Dane, and you, All, might learn to realize that this applies to you, too. I don't claim to know what is going on with these chemtrail-clouds, and I have stated as much, repeatedly, and mildly, on this thread.
I have been accused, in this thread of "fear-mongering." I did not answer the charge at the time, because to me, it was absurd. Because fear-mongering, like "going about willfully to deceive," implies a degree of malicious intent, and I know, in my own heart, that this is not the case... I also know, from experience, how hard it is to maintain a position of active opposition to the oligarchy. The powers that be have developed Silent weapons for Quiet wars; and they use them.
What you are doing is far from "Reporting." It is fear mongering. You are merely linking sources from dubious websites that draw wild conclusions form anecodotal evidence. What I am simply doing is calling "Bulls%&t" and attempting to balance this discussion with a sprinkling of sanity. Others on this thread have made similar attempts. Not to change your mind- as it is already convinced, but to offer a balanced discussion for others who stumble on this thread and have not formed opinions on this matter.
So which is it - Comfort or Fear - that this topic evokes in People? Get it straight. I, for one, derive neither comfort, or pleasure from the subject. It's a hard subject; an unpleasant one.
But, even if I were blind, and could not verify the existence of this new phenomena with my own eyes, >which I can do, and have done< I would maintain, from a philosophical standpoint - from a position of Phenomenology - that the simple and mere existence of this new word, Chemtrails, {concerning which, there are upwards of seven million, two hundred eighty thousands hits on Google, at this date} is significant, in and of itself, and can not be dismissed and swept away so readily, and blithely as you have done, Dane. With all due respect.
As it was, I continued to study, and work the taiings in these two piles in my first list:
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "population reduction"
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "biological warfare"
By the time I considered spinning the words "class war" into the mix, I had pretty much been convinced that one of the purposes of this "elegant solution" of "chemtrails" is population reduction. Yes, I'm a "believer" now on that score. There are a whole cloud of witnesses.
Google Advanced Search:chemtrails, "class war"
So, in truth, I personally have not "purposefully put a vast conspiracy to poison the world into the mix" - instead I have merely continued to investigate some of the vast evidence to the effect that it is so. There are clouds of witnesses; all around the world.
Now as to your other very legitimate Question,
"Are you a very careful observer, Mark?"
I can truly say, yes, I am. I have eyes in my head, and I see with them. You may fault me for not being a credentialed scientist, but at least, I do not boast a doctorate that I do not possess. Also I can state - without bragging - that I am a poet, and, with the aesthetic appreciation of substance & space common to artists and intellectuals; I see clearly.
Furthermore, I am un ancien, now; sixty-two years of age, with a long history of cloud-gazing, plenty of time on my hands these days, and with a clear memory of the days before 1989, when skies in Northern California, at the altitude of 1500 feet and upwards were blue, and there was no chemtrail haze.
What Colleen Fernald wrote on the other thread bears repeating:
It must be that the people who do not notice the difference between the contrails we've seen throughout our lives, are very different than the GeoEngineered ones which have been increasing for the last several years; must be victims from some mass hypnosis, or are suffering from nature deficit syndrome. They just don't get out enough to notice what has changed through the Weather Modification program.
That is why I think it is accurate to term the whole phenomena, as it has devolved since 1989, as a vast Psy-Op.
This is the most amazing aspect of this whole phenomenon to me - the social aspect of it; and how it is that intelligent, decent people refuse to believe the testimony of their own senses, and recognize the plain fact that the tic, tac, toe, & line-segment, faux clouds that fill the skies these days are not authentic clouds at all; neither are they proper, "classical" contrails; i.e., "ice-crystals."
They are not authentic clouds any more than MacDonalds and Burger King fare are authentic food. In both cases, people have been conditioned to accept something that is patently false and Ersatz, as genuine.
This phenomenon - the amazing disassociative behavior of those who are in denial about the Reality of this new phenomenon of Chemtrails, reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes - and also of the Denial of the Hungarian Jews in May of 1944, who preferred to believe the lies told them by Rudolf Kastner; i.e., that the holocaust was not really happening...
one valid point:
"Current aircraft being photographed making purported "chemtrails" are seen flying at ordinary commercial jet altitudes in the troposphere, NOT in the stratosphere where geoenegineering proposals would be implemented." This is a very important point, Mr. Reynolds, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention: Usually, "chemtrails"are in the troposphere, NOT in the stratosphere...
Where I live, high up in the hills east of Santa Rosa, "chemtrails" are a daily occurrence. They are in the troposphere, and often not much more than 5 or 6 thousand feet in altitude. I live at the altitude of 1450 feet, and since I have been a carpenter for years, I am able to do constructive geometry in my mind. It is all approximate, of course; both the triangulation and the guess-timate. The phenomena itself is Real. I am a witness.
Three things I do know, from observation and study, :
[1] No reasonable, rational, and scientific explanation has yet emerged from the chemtrail"contra" camp explaining how it is that line segment "clouds" are generated by jet planes laying tracks at low {warm air} altitudes, in the troposphere.
[2] The results of the spraying - that is, chemtrail "haze" clouds - being a low altitude phenomenon, in the troposphere - are not authentic, natural, "classical" cirrus clouds.
[3] Neither are they classical "contrails" - i.e., ice crystals - in layers of cold air in the troposphere, or freezing air in the stratosphere.
Sincerely,
Mark Walter Evans
P.S.,
When you do a Google Advanced Search, open up your other browser, use the 100 hits function, copy and paste, and then scroll deep into the pile before you start selecting sites to open up. That is because the quirky, crazy stuff - the disinformation, the black propaganda - as well as the establishment hacks, government shills and paid "contras" are usually placed on the top of the pile. {Algorithms.}
03-01-2012, 05:16 PM
Iolchan
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Further Research
iolchan wrote:
In 1991 a U.S. patent was issued to Hughes Aircraft Company; the Stratospheric Welsbach Seeding For Reduction of Global Warming Patent (#5,003,186). It proposed injecting into the upper atmosphere, a “very fine, white talcum-like” powder of aluminum oxide, barium oxide and other oxides for the stated purpose of reducing Global Warming”.
Jay Reynolds wrote:
You will search in vain for any reference to barium oxide in the patent. You will find aluminum oxide and thorium. The origin of the gambit that barium is part of "chemtrails" has an unsavory origin. This claim was created as a hoax by A.C. Griffith and several others many years ago when they fabricated a story that they were a group of CIA and NSA whistleblowers. The story has no merit, these were ordinary individuals who were shown to have modified website pages to make it appear they had secret knowledge when in fact what they displayed had come from 'Popular Mechanics' and various University websites, nothing secret at all, and nothing ever pertained to barium. In short, they pulled off a fantastic hoax which has become part of the chemtrails mythos. My full accounting of that story is found here:
These claims are unfounded by substantive scientific research. They are promoted by Nick Begich, who purchased his "doctorate" by mail order from Sri Lanka.
Dr. Nick Begich co-authored with Jeane Manning the bookAngels Don't Play This HAARP; Advances in Tesla Technology. Begich has also authored Earth Rising – The Revolution: Toward a Thousand Years of Peace. The Interviews:
Dr. Nick Begich is the eldest son of the late United States Congressman from Alaska, Nick Begich Sr., and political activist Pegge Begich. He is well known in Alaska for his own political activities. He was twice elected President of both the Alaska Federation of Teachers and the Anchorage Council of Education. He has been pursuing independent research in the sciences and politics for most of his adult life. Begich received his doctorate in traditional medicine from The Open International University for Complementary Medicines in November 1994.
He co-authored with Jeane Manning the book Angels Don't Play This HAARP; Advances in Tesla Technology. Begich has also authored Earth Rising – The Revolution: Toward a Thousand Years of Peace and and his latest book Earth Rising II– The Betrayal of Science, Society and the Soul both with the late James Roderick. He is also the editor of Earthpulse Flashpoints, a new-science book series. Begich has published articles in science, politics and education and is a well known lecturer, having presented throughout the United States and in nineteen countries. He has been featured as a guest on thousands of radio broadcasts reporting on his research activities including new technologies, health and earth science related issues. He has also appeared on dozens of television documentaries and other programs throughout the world including BBC-TV, CBC-TV, TeleMundo, and others.
Begich has served as an expert witness and speaker before the European Parliament. He has spoken on various issues for groups representing citizen concerns, statesmen and elected officials, scientists and others. He is the publisher and co-owner of Earthpulse Press and is also under contract as Tribal Administrator/Village Planner for the Chickaloon Village Council, a federally recognized American Indian Tribe of the Athabascan Indian Nation. Begich also serves as Executive Director of The Lay Institute of Technology, Inc. a Texas non-profit corporation.
Dr. Begich is married to Shelah Begich-Slade and has five children. He resides just north of Anchorage in the community of Eagle River, Alaska, USA.
- Mark
03-14-2012, 06:05 AM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Mark:
Where I live, high up in the hills east of Santa Rosa, "chemtrails" are a daily occurrence. They are in the troposphere, and often not much more than 5 or 6 thousand feet in altitude.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Mark:
I live at the altitude of 1450 feet, and since I have been a carpenter for years, I am able to do constructive geometry in my mind. It is all approximate, of course; both the triangulation and the guess-timate. The phenomena itself is Real. I am a witness.
Mark,
You are claiming that the jets you see are only at 5-6000 feet altitude and making contrails?
You lie.
03-14-2012, 07:59 AM
podfish
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
https://waccobb.net/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Mark wrote:
Where I live, high up in the hills east of Santa Rosa, "chemtrails" are a daily occurrence. They are in the troposphere, and often not much more than 5 or 6 thousand feet in altitude.
https://waccobb.net/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Mark wrote: I live at the altitude of 1450 feet, and since I have been a carpenter for years, I am able to do constructive geometry in my mind. It is all approximate, of course; both the triangulation and the guess-timate. The phenomena itself is Real. I am a witness.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jay Reynolds:
Mark,
You are claiming that the jets you see are only at 5-6000 feet altitude and making contrails?
You lie.
[/SIZE]
or "You are seriously mistaken". Mark, if they're there quite frequently, how bout getting another chemtrail advocate in the area to team up with you and do a little triangulation with a McGyvered surveyor scope and a telephone to synchronize observations? Something on the scale a sixth-grade math class should be able to handle. It'd go a long way to show that you take your critics seriously - a bit of physical evidence is a lot better than a flurry of links.
03-14-2012, 08:41 AM
geomancer
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
[OMG here it folks, here it is, the proverbial smoking gun, HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT! Something bad will surely happen, right?]
High in the sky, 60 to 65 miles above Earth's surface, winds rush through a little understood region of Earth's atmosphere at speeds of 200 to 300 miles per hour. Lower than a typical satellite's orbit, higher than where most planes fly, this upper atmosphere jet stream makes a perfect target for a particular kind of scientific experiment: the sounding rocket. Some 35 to 40 feet long, sounding rockets shoot up into the sky for short journeys of eight to ten minutes, allowing scientists to probe difficult-to-reach layers of the atmosphere.
In March, NASA will launch five such rockets in approximately five minutes to study these high-altitude winds and their intimate connection to the complicated electrical current patterns that surround Earth.
First noticed in the 1960s, the winds in this jet stream shouldn't be confused with the lower jet stream located around 30,000 feet, through which passenger jets fly and which is reported in weather forecasts.
This rocket experiment is designed to gain a better understanding of the high-altitude winds and help scientists better model the electromagnetic regions of space that can damage man-made satellites and disrupt communications systems. The experiment will also help explain how the effects of atmospheric disturbances in one part of the globe can be transported to other parts of the globe in a mere day or two.
"This area shows winds much larger than expected," says Miguel Larsen, a space scientist at Clemson University who is the principal investigator for these five rockets, known as the Anomalous Transport Rocket Experiment (ATREX). "We don't yet know what we're going to see, but there is definitely something unusual going on. ATREX will help us understand the big question about what is driving these fast winds."
Determining what drives these winds requires precise understanding of the way the winds move and what kind of turbulence they show. To get an idea of the task at hand, imagine mapping not just the ups and downs of ocean waves but the attendant surf, undertow, and tides, all from 60 miles away and in only 20 minutes. To accomplish this, the five sounding rockets will launch from NASA's Wallops Flight Facility in Virginia releasing a chemical tracer into the air.
The chemical - a substance called trimethyl aluminum (TMA) - forms milky, white clouds that allow those on the ground to "see" the winds in space and track them with cameras. In addition, two of the rockets will have instrumented payloads to measure pressure and temperature in the atmosphere.
The rockets will be launched on a clear night within a period of minutes, so the trails can all be seen at the same time. The trimethyl aluminum will then be released in space out over the Atlantic Ocean at altitudes from 50 to 90 miles.
The cloud tracers will last for up to 20 minutes and will be visible in the mid-Atlantic region, and along the east coast of the United States from parts of South Carolina to New Jersey.
"People have launched single rockets before," says Larsen. "But the key here is that we're extending the range of measurements to many hundreds of miles. The furthest rocket will make it half way to Bermuda."
Sounding rockets are usually launched one or two at a time, so launching five at once will call for specific timing and direction to gather the required data. The rockets must be launched on a clear night between March 14 and April 3. Scientists will then use special camera equipment to track the five clouds and measure how quickly they move away from each other. They can then plug this information into equations that will describe what kind of turbulence exists in the winds.
One possible kind of turbulence is called three-dimensional turbulence, turbulence much like what one sees flowing down a river and swirling around rocks or in gusting winds on Earth.
If this is seen, it would suggest the winds move with laws of motion similar to those governing small-scale waves in water. Such waves might be driven by heat in the atmosphere that varies in the course of a day. ] This would jibe with one of the original theories for how the winds are created, and indeed there are those who think of this region as a kind of atmospheric "surf zone" in the sky.
Another view is that the winds at that height are too fast to jibe with this model. Moreover, man-made tracers, such as Space Shuttle exhaust, do not break up and dissipate as one might expect from such turbulence, but remain remarkably coherent.
On the other hand, if ATREX sees winds that exhibit what's called two-dimensional turbulence, this would support a model based on a more directed, jet stream flow.
"In 3-D turbulence, one sees complicated movement," says Larsen. "But there's a tendency for 2-D turbulence to behave almost in the opposite manner - the airflow coalesces into single streams, like a jet stream."
This kind of airflow would also be strongly enhanced by the combination of electrical currents in the region and the rate of the Earth's rotation. Together, this connection might result in the fast, coherent streams of air so far observed.
The rockets being used for the mission are two Terrier-Improved Malemutes, two Terrier-Improved Orions and one Terrier-Oriole. In order for the launches to occur, clear skies are required at three special camera sites located along the coast in Virginia, North Carolina and New Jersey.
NASA has used TMA for decades as part of rocket studies from sites worldwide to study the near-space environment. TMA burns slowly and produces visible light that can be tracked visually and with special camera equipment.
The products of the reaction when TMA is exposed to air or water are aluminum oxide, carbon dioxide and water vapor. Aluminum oxides are used to combat heartburn and to purify drinking water. Also, all three products occur naturally in the atmosphere. The TMA poses no threat to the public during preparation on the ground or during the release in space.
Where I live, high up in the hills east of Santa Rosa, "chemtrails" are a daily occurrence. They are in the troposphere, and often not much more than 5 or 6 thousand feet in altitude. I live at the altitude of 1450 feet, and since I have been a carpenter for years, I am able to do constructive geometry in my mind. It is all approximate, of course; both the triangulation and the guess-timate. The phenomena itself is Real. I am a witness.
Three things I do know, from observation and study, :
[1] No reasonable, rational, and scientific explanation has yet emerged from the chemtrail"contra" camp explaining how it is that line segment "clouds" are generated by jet planes laying tracks at low {warm air} altitudes, in the troposphere.
[2] The results of the spraying - that is, chemtrail "haze" clouds - being a low altitude phenomenon, in the troposphere - are not authentic, natural, "classical" cirrus clouds.
[3] Neither are they classical "contrails" - i.e., ice crystals - in layers of cold air in the troposphere, or freezing air in the stratosphere.
Mark,
You are claiming that the jets you see are only at 5-6000 feet altitude and making contrails?
You lie.
Let the Public take Notice that I have said, both times - in this, and in the earlier post, which Mr. Reynolds quotes - that the particular Phenomenon of which I speak, is termed, in the popular imagination, and by popular consensus, "Chemtrails" - not "Contrails." There is a difference = a distinction between the two categories; of which I am a witness.
It is you who lie, and twist my words, Mr. John Boyd Reynolds. I Challenge you to respond to the Questions/Issues of the three points that I posed, above. Will you? No; you will not, because you can not. So instead, you go on the Attack, and you accuse me.
Are you not a deceiver, schemer, government shill, paid flack-man, and verbal hit-man who works for the oligarchy/plutocracy/power elite/1% ? Do you not work for THEM, Inc., Who are seeking to depopulate the planet of the bulk of the poor and starving Masses; whom your Masters consider to be no better than "use-less eaters" ? Who are using plagues and famines and wars and dumping toxic garbage from the skies in "chemtrails," as chief among their infamous and nefarious methods to kill off the plebeians - the proles - the "wogs" - the We-uns of this planet? All because They Think They CAN, and because they consider there to be "TOO MANY" of Us, the We-uns; the Wogs, the Commons...
Google Advanced Search: " TOO MANY " , people, "useless eaters"
Prove that you are not such a vile, despicable individual, and conscious, witting, dis-information agent - if you can. And sue me - if you will - for Libel. Prove that you are not such an one; worse than Rudy Kastner, who lied to the Jews of Hungary that there were no Death Camps in the East; lied because he was bought off, lied because he was shown the horse's head in the bed; lied, because he was in on, & agent for some kind of horrible three-way quid-pro-quo between the Brits- the Labor Zionists- & the Nazis.
But No, I did not - nor do I, lie. I did not say that I saw "contrails" at the altitude of five and six thousand feet; I wrote that I saw "chemtrails" within the parameters of those altitudes. I do live at {approximately} 1450 feet in altitude, in the Range of the Mayacamas. To the East of my dwelling, five miles across the Canyon, is the Napa County line, at an altitude of approximately 2500 feet above Sea Level. I am a carpenter, and I am able to triangulate, and do constructive geometry - as it pertains to the field of Carpentry - in my mind. I do estimate the height of the Chemtrails that appear before dawn most mornings - which planes do often fly out of Edwards Air Force Base, to be, often, in the Range of five and six thousand feet in altitude. You may quote me on that one.
I have been a witness, an observer, and on some occasions, a testifier of this visual phenomenon since at least 1998. And No, I never heard of those two neo-Nazi idiots/shills/ringers, from Ohio that Peggy mentioned in the article on the other thread. It is regrettable that Peggy Day - whom I consider to be a good, honest, and decent person, was led to believe a dis-information agent such as yourself, Mr. "Jay" Reynolds; whose avocation & "night job" is peddling & palming off the Big Lie that a genuine Phenomenon - something that anyone can see with their own eyes, if they care to look - "originated with" two mid-Western eedjits/dildos who supposedly invented some kind of "virus" that jumps phenomenal categories, from computers to humans. A "venereal disease of the mind" that you, Mr Reynolds, have already, libelously suggested, "may have become a resident of your {my} synapses long enough to become engrained." [sic] ...
Well, Mr "Jay" aka, (bairn,) John Reynolds - and all you a-listening: Folks cain't catch computer viruses. Them new-fangled things is for computores,solement. Capishe?
I suggest that those words of yours skirt dangerously close - and may even, in fact, be Libel, Mr Jay Reynolds; shill. Furthermore, You have even today - March 14, 2012 - [yesterday, as far as the time of the posting - but not the Drafting - of this missive] called me a Liar, in psyberspace, Mr. Reynolds; inasmuch as you have written, and sent into the atmosphere of the planet through the world-wide-web, the Allegation, that I, Mark Walter Evans, do "lie." It has already entered into the eons, and into the Realm of Judgment, also. Take heed.
I challenge you, Mr Reynolds, to either answer my Questions, above =OR= sue me forLibel, and Prove that you, yourself are not "a government-paid dis-information agent, flack-man & shill." Those are my fightin' words, Sir.
To the Rest of you: plebes, proletariat, chilluns, and willin's, I say, Sure, if any of you care enough - or even if you are skeptical, but deeply curious about the Chemtrail phenomenon, and you'd like to make a Documentary - & if you {Plural} can pool together the means to make a serious documentary on the subject, with a title like "CHEMTRAILS - THE EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNT" - you may contact me. My own land is available for a Set/sighting-ground. And, if anyone at all - or any group of people, scientists or citizens care to come out here and work with me {and whoever that is trust-worthy who shows up,} to ascertain or witness also for yourselves, the phenomenon of "Chemtails" from my land; be my guest. You may write me.
Again, Let the Public take Notice that I have said, both times - in this, and in the earlier post, which Mr. Reynolds quotes - that the particular Phenomenon of which I speak, is termed, in the popular imagination, and by popular consensus, "Chemtrails" - not "Contrails." There is a difference = a distinction between the two categories; of which I am a witness.
However, Rady Ananda has written:
"The Belfort Group, has been working to raise public awareness about toxic aerial spraying – popularly known as chemtrails. However, scientists preferred the term ‘persistent contrails’ to describe the phenomenon, to move the inquiry away from amateur conspiracy theories."
Mr. Jay Reynolds denies that such a category is Real, or Actual, and impudently Libels the names & reputations of people who dare to write, on-line, that they see chemtrails - or who make a distinction between "persistent contrails" and classical, old style "contrails." I suspect that I am not the first whom he has dealt with, in this manner. It is hismodus operandus - and job. This is a witch-hunt, and his methods are the classical method of the Inquisitor. Who is the actual Liar?
Google Advanced Search: "Jay Reynolds" , "chemtrails"
Very Seriously,
Mark Walter Evans
03-15-2012, 06:39 AM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Mark,
Overblown taunts and threats of childish lawsuits don't interest me. Try driving to a position directly underneath one of these 5-6000 ft "chemtrails", then take a picture and show us. You say they are five miles away OTG, so that should be fairly easy, but you will likely find they are far farther away than your estimate.
Document the camera type and lens used, in fact, document the whole procedure as carefully as you can. It will be relatively easy for an experienced carpenter with mental powers of trigonometric calculation to photogrammatically get a fairly close estimate of the altitude. Please show us the math you would ordinarily do in your head.
That is, if you really want to prove your case.
Happy trails,
Jay
03-15-2012, 08:57 AM
kathleenmc1953
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
It is amazing to me that our "scientists" so carelessly put dangerous substances into the atmosphere. Here is the material data safety sheet for this substance. I guess Europe and/or Africa will be subject to any effects from this initially. What goes up must come down, right?
[OMG here it folks, here it is, the proverbial smoking gun, HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT! Something bad will surely happen, right?]
https://www.terradaily.com/reports/N...t_sky_999.html NASA jet stream study will light up the night sky ... Determining what drives these winds requires precise understanding of the way the winds move and what kind of turbulence they show. To get an idea of the task at hand, imagine mapping not just the ups and downs of ocean waves but the attendant surf, undertow, and tides, all from 60 miles away and in only 20 minutes. To accomplish this, the five sounding rockets will launch from NASA's Wallops Flight Facility in Virginia releasing a chemical tracer into the air.
The chemical - a substance called trimethyl aluminum (TMA) - forms milky, white clouds that allow those on the ground to "see" the winds in space and track them with cameras. In addition, two of the rockets will have instrumented payloads to measure pressure and temperature in the atmosphere....
03-15-2012, 11:38 AM
geomancer
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by kathleenmc1953:
It is amazing to me that our "scientists" so carelessly put dangerous substances into the atmosphere. Here is the material data safety sheet for this substance. I guess Europe and/or Africa will be subject to any effects from this initially. What goes up must come down, right?
The products of the reaction when TMA is exposed to air or water are aluminum oxide, carbon dioxide and water vapor. Aluminum oxides are used to combat heartburn and to purify drinking water. Also, all three products occur naturally in the atmosphere.
Aluminum oxide is a major constituent of old soils and forms a coating on aluminum cookware, no wonder people are so afraid of it!
OK everyone, time to unwad your undies!
03-15-2012, 01:39 PM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Kathleen,
The sounding rockets will put a small amout of TMA at an altitude of 50-90 miles. This is into the ionosphere, where there is almost no air. It is at the boundary of space.
03-16-2012, 06:32 AM
Jay Reynolds
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Residents of your area might be interested in the image below. On 2/13/12, between 6am and 6pm, using Flightaware.com, I surveyed ordinary scheduled commercial jet flights to/from airports between Seattle, Vancouver, Portland and many of the larger California airports. Though I did not capture all flights, I was able to download files for 109 flights over the area to get some idea of the number of flights.
I then downloaded these flight path files into Google Earth and display them as seen from a high altitude here:
In Google Earth, I am able to view these flight tracks from ground level as one would see them from Santa Rosa, if each flight left a contrail. Here is the view looking northwards:
03-19-2012, 10:39 PM
Iolchan
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Three things I do know, from observation and study :
[1] No reasonable, rational, and scientific explanation has yet emerged from the chemtrail"contra" camp explaining how it is that line segment "clouds" are generated by jet planes laying tracks at low {warm air} altitudes, in the troposphere.
[2] The results of the spraying - that is, chemtrail "haze" clouds - being a low altitude phenomenon, in the troposphere - are not authentic, natural, "classical" cirrus clouds.
[3] Neither are they classical "contrails" - i.e., ice crystals - in layers of cold air in the troposphere, or freezing air in the stratosphere.
Once Again, I pose the Question:
Why can't any of you address the issues outlined
above with cogent, rational, scientific answers,
for Once ?
03-20-2012, 05:46 AM
Jay Reynolds
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
Mark,
Until you document your claim that planes are spraying you from low altitude, a claim that your neighbors aren't agreeing with so far, there is no reason to offer you the explanation you are asking for. Cathy Palmer has made some videos of what she saw over Sonoma County, she believes this is spraying, but the planes are clearly not at low altitudes, she has to use a 70X zoom to get any detail at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_qZExD1rM
If you people would simply apply the tech necessary, you could produce evidence which would stand any scrutiny, photos such as these which clearly identify the planes, even though they are over 30,000 ft: https://www.skystef.be/contrail2.htm
The aviation enthusiast community, such as skystef above, has long developed the skill and technology to identify planes.
The leadership of the chemtrails community is aware of this, yet they do not encourage their members to apply this.
Why not?
The ball is in your court, Mark. You have been given the information with which to make your case.
Make your case with evidence, and you gain credibility, or continue making claims with none which will be justifiably ignored.
03-20-2012, 01:39 PM
Iolchan
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
No Need to Re-invent the Wheel
After my post challenging Jay Reynolds to either address the three points I had raised in an earlier post, or deny that he is a paid shill by taking me to court, I went on a holiday. I knew that I would find something in my in-box when I came back on-line, and last night, when I returned to the Internet, I found this:
Quote:
https://waccobb.net/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Jay Reynolds wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/image...post-right.png
Mark,
Overblown taunts and threats of childish lawsuits don't interest me. Try driving to a position directly underneath one of these 5-6000 ft "chemtrails", then take a picture and show us. You say they are five miles away OTG, so that should be fairly easy, but you will likely find they are far farther away than your estimate.
Document the camera type and lens used, in fact, document the whole procedure as carefully as you can. It will be relatively easy for an experienced carpenter with mental powers of trigonometric calculation to photogrammatically get a fairly close estimate of the altitude. Please show us the math you would ordinarily do in your head.
That is, if you really want to prove your case.
Happy trails,
Jay
Rather than address the issues, and engage in a debate on the points I raised , Mr. "Jay" Reynolds, artful dodger that he is, endeavors, once again to evade the issues, take a low tack, go on the offensive, and put me on the spot, by once again questioning my integrity and competence as a witness. He does not answer the Questions I have already posed because he can not.It can not be done. There are no "reasonable, rational, and scientific explanations" for the Scientific Quandry posed by the issues I raised in these three points:
[1] No reasonable, rational, and scientific explanation has yet emerged from the chemtrail"contra" camp explaining how it is that line segment "clouds" are generated by jet planes laying tracks at low {warm air} altitudes, in the troposphere.
[2] The results of the spraying - that is, chemtrail "haze" clouds - being a low altitude phenomenon, in the troposphere - are not authentic, natural, "classical" cirrus clouds.
[3] Neither are they classical "contrails" - i.e., ice crystals - in layers of cold air in the troposphere, or freezing air in the stratosphere.
So, Once Again, I Challenge You, Jay Reynolds, to respond to the Questions/Issues of the three points that I posed, above. Will you? No; you will not, because you can not.
As far as his challenge to me to "prove" or "document" the chemtrails that are visible from my land, that is no more than an artful dodge. Here is what I originally wrote; a point that Mr. Reynolds - or perhaps his handlers - perceived as the Achilles heel / chink in the armor of my argument, through which to drive a verbal spear:
This is a very important point, Mr. Reynolds, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention: Usually, "chemtrails"are in the troposphere, NOT in the stratosphere...
Where I live, high up in the hills east of Santa Rosa, "chemtrails" are a daily occurrence. They are in the troposphere, and often not much more than 5 or 6 thousand feet in altitude. I live at the altitude of 1450 feet, and since I have been a carpenter for years, I am able to do constructive geometry in my mind. It is all approximate, of course; both the triangulation and the guess-timate. The phenomena itself is Real. I am a witness.
You will Note that I used the words "constructive geometry" and not "trigonometry." One more inaccuracy and slurring of my words and my meaning by Mr. Reynolds...
Constructive Geometry, in this instance, means constructing a triangle, which as even the very simple should know, consists of only three points. The relative altitudes of two of the points are known: A) My deck, at roughly 1450 feet elevation, and B) Any point along the Napa-Sonoma Ridge, five miles across the canyon from my house, and - let us say - anywhere between 2300 to 2500 feet in elevation.
Again, these figures, as I said, "are approximate, of course; both the triangulation and the guess-timate." Estimating the altitude of the chemtrail tracks that are laid before dawn several times a week is, admittedly, "not rocket science." As I have written, the chemtrail tracks are laid - generally - on the grid, above and along the Ridge that is the County line early in the morning, well before dawn; and the ridge is - roughly - five miles from my cottage.
Therefore I can estimate - and it is merely "constructive geometry," requiring no trig - that the third points of these triangles { i.e. those that define the altitude of the chemtrails }begin, roughly, at five thousand feet in altitude, and upwards...
This - my "guess-timate" - was the perceived weak point in my missive. But rather than address any of the other, fairly serious issues that I raised in that post,
Jay Reynolds chose instead to seek to discredit me by calling me a liar. That's part and parcel of hismodus operandi.I find dealing with this man very distasteful. Furthermore, I do not enjoy this subject. It is a difficult subject; an unpleasant one. It is only because I remember, vestigially, the post and the responsibility of the watchman in the Ha' Nevi'im, that I stay with it.
It is not necessary for me to re-invent the wheel, or defensively, prove that I am a truth-teller, or establish that, in fact, I do see from my deck that which I have already witnessed, and testified to. I do agree that it is an interesting scientific assignment to present you all with "proof" that the chemtrails that are sprayed on a near daily basis in the vicinity of the County line, begin at the low altitude of five to six thousand feet. As it is, I already have provided you with photographic evidence of this Reality; on the other thread.
But for now - and until or if ever, I acquire the necessary gear and assistants, to perform the Operation that Mr. Reynolds has thrust before me as a challenge - Let the interested Public perform the following web-searches, on the Subject of the altitude of Chemtrail sightings. No need to re-invent the Wheel. No need for more "proof" on this subject; the work has been done for us:
Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, "5000 feet"
Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, "6000 feet"
Google Advanced Search: chemtrails, altitude, altimeter , feet
And let Mr. Reynolds be served Notice that my challenge to him takes precedence and priority over his challenge to me; because, in the debate - such as it is - my challenge came first.Read Robert's Rules of Order. He does not answer the Questions I have already posed because he can not.It can not be done - by anyone. There are no "reasonable, rational, and scientific explanations" for the Scientific Quandry posed by the issues I have raised in those three points.
Mark Walter Evans
02-22-2015, 01:17 AM
Edward Wouters
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
I read somewhere in the thread: The people of 'The Belfort Group' are "scientists".
No, they're not. 'The Belfort Group' is just a 'bunch of people' with a 'hobby'. Not scientists at all. The 'Boy Scouts' are way more scientific in their dealings.
How do I know? These guys are from Belgium, and I live next door to them. They've got some press here (freedom of opinion).
But in the end they got sued by the Belgian government for 'spamming' and 'stalking' the employees of the national (regional) health administration.
There you go..
.
02-22-2015, 01:50 AM
Edward Wouters
Re: Chemtrails Redux with Jay Reynolds
P.s: some people make a mismatch confounding 'rainmaking', shooting silveriodide crystals in the air, in the lower clouds by expensive fireworks (beware of silver poisoning). Not very popular because of a very bad cost / effectiveness ratio, and partly because of the high price and the toxicity of silver.
They confound it with commercial air traffic.
They confound it with fire extinguisher planes.
They confound it with theories about influencing climate change, by bringing dust and sun absorbing chemicals into the higher arhmospere (which will cause way more problems than it will solve, so it's just hypothetical now).
They confound it with military exercise, planes spreading 'chaff' in the air (aluminiumfoil or metallised plastic film), for radar jamming purposes.
You name it, they'll confound it..
.
08-28-2015, 10:06 AM
kltkwmn~707
weather control :: SF Weekly "Fear From The Skies" :: SRM/Geoengineering
By Jeremy LybargerWednesday, Aug 19 2015 "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers." — Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow
