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Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Brainwash Personified
We are excited at the achievement that we did it, we killed him
Are we all asleep, in that we are choosing to be thrilled that someone died
Congratulating the president and the soldiers who found him .
Now Obama will go down as a historic figure who did a monumental thing for his country .
BUT it is all bull shit and all illusion !!!!!
Humans feeling joy at the death of other humans is insanity
War and death is insanity
Capturing him and forcing him to live with what he has done , putting him in a mental hospital, or holding him hostage so we can make changes in terrorism this seems more like intelligence that what we have actually done .
Bin Laden was elated when the towers got hit and we are ecstastic that he is now dead ?
Does anyone see the madness ?
Do we really believe that we achieved something by killing one man ? Bin Laden is not Al Queda , it is a network .
Consciousness does not change that way , and maybe we made a sleeping dog very angry ??
In history , any major movements for humanity were made in peace .
And yet, we are all so cool with an eye for an eye . Is this in alignment with our core values and beliefs about love ?
Side note, I am a New Yorker who lived there my whole life including when 911 happened and so my sensitivity is quite real to this situation.
Violence has a cause and effect ............what will be the effect for the US now ?
When will we think that ANY forms of violence are madness ?
Justifications for why this is a "great day for the US " concerns me .
SO the bully got killed and we became the bully ( even if he was wrong ) .
What is wrong, is the entire mentality of seperatness and war and this act further reinforces it .
This day changes nothing in a positive way .
We think that now 911 has been liberated , the people who died have had justice , and the families who lost people , are now blessed by this act ?
What about the Amish who found love after their children were slaughtered and Obama's speech about how we should embody their ways of compassion ?
Today is yet another disguise for our collective inability to find another way other than killing and death .
How can a jubilation of death be a good thing for humanity and for the consciousness of this planet ?.
What if there is a mother earth , surely she weeps for our behavior and how clearly it reflects our hypocrisy toward oneness .
A person called in on TV with her reaction to this tragic day ( in my opinion) , saying she is so looking fwd to seeing pictures of the lifeless body of Bin Laden ........saying he has so much blood on his hands ......................and deserves the death .
OK great , now we have blood on our hands ......how does the cycle stop ?
I am embarrassed to be part of this country at this time.
Guns , guns, and more guns .
Lets go out tomorrow night and rent an action movie with some violence !
Death equals death equals death equals death equals death equals death equals death
I feel ill and genuinely concerned about the reverberations yet to follow
Betina ( please note these are my feelings and will not respond to anyone who writes angry things ):heart:
Beloveds, many years ago, Martin Luther King, Jr. offered these
profound words of Truth and Love:
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not
rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate
...for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night
already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love
can do that."
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Well said.
One quibble. The quote you use at the end is only partially by MLK Jr.
Here's the skinny: https://www.theatlantic.com/national...tation/238257/
It's an interesting story about our times.
Peace Out!
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
During the Passover Seder, Jews remove part of their wine in honor of the suffering that was inflicted on their oppressors, so their joy of redemption is not full.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Who is Osama Bin Laden? REALLY?
Shory video - less than 5 min: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_01h82gCHbY
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Is it legal for our military helicopters to enter another country in the middle of the night, have a shootout with people in a home, kill people, grab a body and bury it at sea?
And how long does it normally take to do a DNA analysis?
Just wondering,
Marty
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Posted in reply to the post by David8:
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Corbett's take on this seems extremely credible to me. He answers the question (Who is Bin Laden?) quite succinctly: the bogeyman, brought to you by our very own intelligence establishment.
I can well imagine that everything we've ever heard about - or ostensibly from - Bin Laden is propaganda; as realfire wrote: "it is all bull shit and all illusion."
Exactly! I suspect we have little to fear but our own gullibility - and those within the power structure who would terrorize us to keep us in line.
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Posted in reply to the post by David8:
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
This is nice, Barry; I must say my stomach turned a little when I saw the pictures of all those people joyfully celebrating another human's death...
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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
During the Passover Seder, Jews remove part of their wine in honor of the suffering that was inflicted on their oppressors, so their joy of redemption is not full.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by springboard:
And doesn't ANYONE find it slightly suspicious that he was immediately buried at sea? Which isn't necessarily Islamic tradition? Let's spell it out for the kids at home: P-r-o-p-a-g-a-n-d-a. Wag the dog, Mr. President, wag the dog....
They threw his body into the ocean so there wouldn't be a shrine that muslims could worship.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
>>>The administration is probably quite grateful for those out there that are falling for this quaint little tale--- hook, line, and stinker. Hmmm, 10 year anniversary of the World Trade Center incident coming up? Obama's lack of cred because of this whole birth certificate nonsense? His good-job-ratings tanking with the economy and everything else? Interesting timing, interesting timing... I've got a sweet, perty little bridge in Brooklyn that I'll give you a hell of deal on... :wink:
Sorry, but could you make clearer what tale we're falling for? Are you saying he wasn't killed, or that the timing was fixed for max effect, or what?
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
...celebrating...
echoed my thoughts exactly when first i learned folks were gathering in New York at ground_zero ... celebrating? ...
thought it would be wrong to release the photograph of his corpse ... have we ever asked for notorious criminals' photographs to be released? Obama could have a private viewing for ground_zero families, to attend, if they so desired. Or, the photograph could be edited, blocking the wounds...
heard on the news that Pakistanis are starting to blame the United States for O.B.Laden's death (well, rightly so - we did it) and are angry that the United States ventured into their sovereign territory to execute the mission -- that's to be expected! Got me wondering - what would have happened if the U.S. could have accomplished this mission, done everything exactly the same, but NOT TOLD ANYONE OF O.B.Laden's death? interesting scenario...
Public Broadcasting's newsmagazine "FRONTLINE" (former 60 Minutes producer left 60 Min. and went to Frontline) had a really good program about the Afghanistan militias.
This program reported that the DRONE fly-overs are greatly increased from the Bush administration -- Obama's administration has increased the Drone aircraft usage -- perhaps five times augmentation. i didn't know this! surprised me
The Frontline programs are available to view ON LINE, just google Frontline PBS...
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Also Saudi Arabia did not want to accept his remains. He had been stripped of his Saudi citizenship and thrown out of the country.
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Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
They threw his body into the ocean so there wouldn't be a shrine that muslims could worship.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:
>>>The administration is probably quite grateful for those out there that are falling for this quaint little tale--- hook, line, and stinker. Hmmm, 10 year anniversary of the World Trade Center incident coming up? Obama's lack of cred because of this whole birth certificate nonsense? His good-job-ratings tanking with the economy and everything else? Interesting timing, interesting timing... I've got a sweet, perty little bridge in Brooklyn that I'll give you a hell of deal on... :wink:
Sorry, but could you make clearer what tale we're falling for? Are you saying he wasn't killed, or that the timing was fixed for max effect, or what?
Deathers! - our newest conspiracy freaks. Has a nice symmetry with the birthers, don't you think?
Oy
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Something had to be done, and I'm glad it was. Osama was continuing to plan and plot. I agree that the celebrating was over the top, rude and unnecessary though.
Tibet's spiritual leader the Dalai Lama suggested that killing of Osama bin Laden by US was justified. He said the Al-Qaeda chief may have deserved compassion and even forgiveness.
But, he said: "Forgiveness doesn't mean forget what happened. If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures. He emphasized the need to find a distinction between the action and the actor. He said in the case of bin Laden, his action was of course destructive and the September 11 events killed thousands of people.
"So his action must be brought to justice... But with the actor we must have compassion and a sense of concern... His Holiness said therefore the counter measure, no matter what form it takes, has to be compassionate action."
I would suggest that killing Osama quickly and giving him a burial at sea was the most compassionate way the US could have brought him to justice, stopped his plotting, and give us a sense of closure for the September 11 events.
I'm sure our president thought long and hard about this action and there is probably a lot more to the story than we will know.
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I wonder the extent to which human animal instincts are clouding the cognitions of the group in this discussion. Commentators elsewhere have referred to killing bin Laden as a "necessary evil." What exactly made the evil of murder necessary? I call attention to the fact that if our special forces could kill bin Laden, they could have captured him. A few stun grenades or tear gas would have been sufficient. bin Laden was unarmed and unprotected, and we knew it because we'd been surveilling him for months. If captured alive, he could have been tried in the Hague at the International Court. The Nazi war criminals, who killed many more than bin Laden, were tried there, found guilty, and THEN executed.
So, we may ask, what was the reason for killing bin Laden rather than capturing him? What did bin Laden know that would have come out in his defense at the Hague? If the U.S. had no fears about what he might have disclosed, then he should have been captured and brought to trial.
Other commentators have wondered what the U.S. did to create a person like bin Laden. It's instructive to note that the CIA armed and financed bin Laden during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. bin Laden was on the CIA payroll during the Desert Storm war. The U.S. created bin Laden and used him for its hegemonic purposes over many years.
This raises the further question of just exactly how deep did the use of bin Laden reach? This line of inquiry also touches on the point I raise in the first paragraph, which is what motivated the U.S. to kill bin Laden rather than try him in the Hague. We sent Milosovic to the Hague and he killed many more than the 3,000 bin Laden is allegedly responsible for. What did bin Laden know about 9/11 that the U.S. did not want revealed in a trial in the Hague? One does not have to be a conspiracy theorist to question the official version of the events of 9/11. What if bin Laden were to reveal that the hijackers never intended to hit the Twin Towers? What if their goal was simply to hijack the planes, make a statement, and get transportation back to Saudi Arabia, where most of them came from? What if they were the cat's paws in a false flag operation to seize more control of the nation through the PATRIOT Act, the suspension of habeas corpus, and heightened surveillance? Outcomes often reveal intentions, and I note with interest that the events of 9/11 have strengthened the corporatocracy's control of the United States. The events of 9/11 have been used to justify the expansion of the military and the military industry and their seizure of the largest fraction of the GNP. The monetary and power rewards for the military-industrial complex and the corporatocracy it has become would justify the risk of a false flag operation for many in power. The risk of exposure would be minimal, because the corporatocracy controls the media, the press, and the flow of information. The corporatocracy defines truth and reality.
Thoughts like these become more difficult to think when our animal instincts cloud our cognitions, and that is precisely what the powerful count on.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:
>>>The administration is probably quite grateful for those out there that are falling for this quaint little tale--- hook, line, and stinker. Hmmm, 10 year anniversary of the World Trade Center incident coming up? Obama's lack of cred because of this whole birth certificate nonsense? His good-job-ratings tanking with the economy and everything else? Interesting timing, interesting timing... I've got a sweet, perty little bridge in Brooklyn that I'll give you a hell of deal on... :wink:
Sorry, but could you make clearer what tale we're falling for? Are you saying he wasn't killed, or that the timing was fixed for max effect, or what?
It will take a long time before the details of these events resolve, as evidenced by historical precedent. It is far to soon to develop such paranoid hypotheses. It easy to let legitimate mistrust of government color opinion without evidence. It is one of the things that leads to an apathetic citizenry. Please calm down and pay attention; keep an open mind.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
>>>I wonder the extent to which human animal instincts are clouding the cognitions of the group in this discussion. Commentators elsewhere have referred to killing bin Laden as a "necessary evil." What exactly made the evil of murder necessary? I call attention to the fact that if our special forces could kill bin Laden, they could have captured him. ... What did bin Laden know that would have come out in his defense at the Hague? If the U.S. had no fears about what he might have disclosed, then he should have been captured and brought to trial.
The issue of killing is complex to me. In my own mind and voting record, I'm a pacifist and oppose war, the death penalty, all that. On the other hand, if I or my family were being attacked, I'd do whatever I had to do in the moment (assuming I wasn't frozen in terror). For me, non-violence works only insofar as we try to prevent the creation of monsters, but is often impossible as a recipe for what to do with the monsters that have been created.
As to the "necessity" of killing Bin Laden: Yes, possibly, he could have revealed secrets re. the CIA, 9-11, etc. But if so, I would wonder why he wouldn't have gone ahead and revealed them five years ago — he wouldn't have lacked for press coverage. And possibly the whole thing was faked, including confirmation from Al-Quada — and perhaps the moon landing never happened, the Twin Towers are still standing, JFK is in a CIA black site, and they actually killed a bearded Elvis in Pakistan. It's all possible, though unlikely.
My own thought is that the Gov't intended to kill Bin Laden because there was no other practical option. To give him to the jurisdiction of an international court would have produced a tsunami of rage in the American public: no politician supportive of that would have been left standing. Sorry to say, but it's true. To send him to Guantanamo and try to give him a civilian trial: we haven't been able to do that with the prisoners we have there. Either option would have put him on the world stage for many months with unprecedented media coverage — the world's longest-running hit martyrdom. I wish those things weren't true, but I feel they are.
>>>Thoughts like these become more difficult to think when our animal instincts cloud our cognitions, and that is precisely what the powerful count on.
I don't quite follow this. I might also say that even very well-informed conspiracy theories also arise from our "animal instincts" of survival, of trying to avoid being surprised by the possible tiger around the corner. Everything you say is quite possible, and some of it I feel is probably true. But it seems to me that it's inductive reasoning spurred by deep fear and suspicion. I don't think we should flatter ourselves that our own views of the government's dark deeds are necessarily more rational and surgically objective than those of the President's press secretary. Maybe, maybe not.
As to celebrating: I feel a deep grief that a man became a killer, that many people lost their lives, that other men were trained to kill in order to kill him, and that they did. We must do what we can to change that cycle and other similar ones, at each point along the line.
Peace & joy--
Conrad
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by nofauxblonde:
It will take a long time before the details of these events resolve, as evidenced by historical precedent. It is far to soon to develop such paranoid hypotheses. It easy to let legitimate mistrust of government color opinion without evidence. It is one of the things that leads to an apathetic citizenry. Please calm down and pay attention; keep an open mind.
I personally think had bin Laden been allowed to live and go to trial, his followers would have then gone on to commit more horrendous crimes - captured and kept hostages in order to demand any number of things, including his release. With him gone, those possibilities are not an option. I am certain any hostages would have been treated terribly until such time bin Laden's followers extracted what they wanted. Bin Laden has followers all over the world, however those that did go to the Hague were localized villans. Keeping bin Laden alive would have inspired unprecedented horrific actions by his followers to innocent victims all over the world. The world is a safer place without him alive.
I also don't think keeping him alive would have been seen as compassionate on the part of his followers, but instead yet another sign of weakness. His instant death sends an entirely different message on a number of levels - especially that America did not forget 9/11, and we won't stop hunting down these evil, destructive people until we get them and hold them accountable. I think a quick dispactch was compassionate. Now, he can meet up with his 76 virgins and live a happy afterlife.
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Indeed -- the amygdala-level response is what they are counting on and have put a lot of resources into perfecting with framing, creating an enemy/boogeyman, use of imagery (esp. on TV) and the like. Thanks for an interesting and thoughtful post.
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Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
... Thoughts like these become more difficult to think when our animal instincts cloud our cognitions, and that is precisely what the powerful count on.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:
>>>I wonder the extent to which human animal instincts are clouding the cognitions of the group in this discussion.....
Not that I'm cynical at all, but I guess I'd feel a bit more like celebrating if some "freedom fighters" from another nation infiltrated North America and assassinated some of the terrorists doing their bloody murderous work here. I have nothing against America's noble, democratically inclined politicians, corporate executives, or bankers, mind you.
Seriously, the most profoundly corrupting and delusionary form of nationalism in history appears to be that of American exceptionalism, with its concomitant disregard for law and its desecration of human morality. Politicians who parade assassination before a fawning populace that conflates retaliatory, criminal violence with justice are the true cynics, and those who confuse such politically and economically motivated mendacity and hypocrisy with valor and honor have clearly lost touch with the very foundations of any religious faith, or for that matter, the putative foundations of a democratic society. As are drone-bombing, cluster-bombing, depleted-uranium bombing, nuclear bombing, torture, domestic surveillance, so-called "humanitarian" interventions, and myriad other crimes against people, assassination is a tool of thugs. In the nation in which I want to live, thugs go to prison.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
On the one hand, I am glad a terrorist leader had met his end. On the other I would have done my best to capture him alive and interrogate him. It is rare to ever capture a leader of a extremist cause, so I believe he would have never been taken alive and it was assumed so by the armed forces.
R.I.P. Osama Bin Laden: Hide & Seek champion of 2001-2011.
I am no flag waver, but i truly believe the world will not miss him.
As for the burial at sea, good touch!
Gandhi once said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" but take into account how many eyes, American and Muslim, he had shut forever.
Edit: It was nice to hear no more of that Royal Wedding garbage, after that. Compared to the Royal wedding, Paul McCartney getting married, and other sentimentalist tripe grabbing the headlines, this news article made my week!
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by phloem:
Not that I'm cynical at all, but I guess I'd feel a bit more like celebrating if some "freedom fighters" from another nation infiltrated North America and assassinated some of the terrorists doing their bloody murderous work here. I have nothing against America's noble, democratically inclined politicians, corporate executives, or bankers, mind you.
Seriously, the most profoundly corrupting and delusionary form of nationalism in history appears to be that of American exceptionalism, with its concomitant disregard for law and its desecration of human morality. Politicians who parade assassination before a fawning populace that conflates retaliatory, criminal violence with justice are the true cynics, and those who confuse such politically and economically motivated mendacity and hypocrisy with valor and honor have clearly lost touch with the very foundations of any religious faith, or for that matter, the putative foundations of a democratic society. As are drone-bombing, cluster-bombing, depleted-uranium bombing, nuclear bombing, torture, domestic surveillance, so-called "humanitarian" interventions, and myriad other crimes against people, assassination is a tool of thugs. In the nation in which I want to live, thugs go to prison.
"Parading assassination before a fawning public" on TV and the Internet reminded me of the spectacles that kings of the past used to engage in. The head of the murdered enemy was cut off, stuck on a pike pole, and displayed in front of the castle. I don't see much difference between the helmet cam videos of the killing of OBL and Obama's appearance on TV and the earlier display of the severed head.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
fresno_bob wrote:
Gandhi once said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" but take into account how many eyes, American and Muslim, he had shut forever.
___
Consider how many eyes the US Empire (since its founding and currently) shut forever in order to gain and maintain dominance over other nations (including the indigenous peoples of the "Americas") for their resources, in order to sustain "our lifestyle" and for the elite to acquire such great wealth. Consider also that by these actions "we" are making enemies around the globe.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
As I see it, the main problem we have in this matter is that most people believe some or all of the core elements of the "strategic narrative" that has been fed to us:
- Osama Bin Laden is an extremist Muslim terrorist
- He masterminded the attack of 911
- He did this because they hate our prosperity, freedom, and way of life
- He has been on the run since 911, and we have not been able to catch him, no matter how we tried
- We just finally caught and killed him, like we wanted to all along
What if ALL of this is made up LIES? (What if ANY of it is lies...) What if this is the STRATEGIC NARRATIVE (google that term) that we are fed to further the geopolitical and economic interests of a segment of the global power elites?
I suggest you watch and discuss these:
Good Morning America Learns That Osama Bin Laden is CIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_cKHVWVyA0
The Truth About Terrorism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6qtGzRkK6o
Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist (Documentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek7ZHenQnu4=1&list=PLA491DB13FBFAC966
Dead Osama Bin Laden HOAX Exposed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66wAi1tUh-I
Osama Bin Laden's Death, Another Mass Psyop! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZkNAgCMmmM
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Same schtick... different scaled-up media!
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Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
"Parading assassination before a fawning public" on TV and the Internet reminded me of the spectacles that kings of the past used to engage in. The head of the murdered enemy was cut off, stuck on a pike pole, and displayed in front of the castle. I don't see much difference between the helmet cam videos of the killing of OBL and Obama's appearance on TV and the earlier display of the severed head.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by David8:
We live in what Rene Debord, the founder of Situationism, called the Society of the Spectacle. The government used psyops during the illegal invasion of Vietnam. Historians would probably be able to trace the campaigns of disinformation across the arc of civilization. The corporatocracy attacks and degrades education in America because an ill-informed, uneducated, dumbed-down citizenry is easier to misdirect. You may not be able to fool all of the people all of the time, but that's not necessary. All that's needed is to fool enough of the people to get elected. That's easier and easier to do, the less well-educated the voters are.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by David8:
Boy, it didn't take long for the deather conspiracy nonsense to start up, now did it? Judging from your YouTube links, you believe that the OBL assassination was all a hoax. Really? Amazing how the Pakistanis are furthering the OBL death narrative and Obama's evil plot against them.
BTW, what are your thoughts on the Moon landing hoax?
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by geomancer:
Boy, it didn't take long for the deather conspiracy nonsense to start up, now did it? Judging from your YouTube links, you believe that the OBL assassination was all a hoax. Really? Amazing how the Pakistanis are furthering the OBL death narrative and Obama's evil plot against them.
BTW, what are your thoughts on the Moon landing hoax?
It is unfortunate when snarkiness is substituted for rationality, because it discourages an open-minded examination of issues, especially issues where the truth appears to be hidden. We on the Progressive end of the American political spectrum cannot afford snarkiness, and sadly it is so often used as a weapon by the Conservative factions. America's involvement in the Middle East, Afghanistan, and Pakistan is fraught with duplicity and secrecy. If we follow the money, it is not complicated to unravel the basic plot: Create an enemy in an impoverished country, invade, and use the invasion and the created enemy as a justification for seizing ever more of the Gross National Product, all the while decreasing freedoms here in America. Snarkiness will not serve us well if we are ever to free ourselves from the yoke of corporatocratic exploitation.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
I am celebrating the fact that I voted for a liar, and another puppet of the aristocracy , Obama is a patsy for the C I A
takeover of America that has held firm since Kennedy, and its completion on nine II . So Obvious is all the mountain of evidences that the entire thing was a set up and a lie, SO many hundreds of witnesses,expert testimonies from engineers and pilots
and it all just falls thud to the ground like a random Arab receiving a radio active bullet. The lie maching grinds on
with all it's ooh la la assumptions. we aall know what caused 911 and Columbine,because million dollar reports were made in triplicate.
Anybody even jokingly agreeing to some connection to trumped up TERRRISHT threats regarding
the C I A bombing of their own headquarters to destroy evidence, the very evidence the people at the meeting in one of the twin towers were planning to completly unveil them with is OBVIOUSLY walking around with their fingers in their ears,and elsewhere
saying "Muslims are evil, we must kill them" as loud as they can because there are no commies or gooks
or Ni***rs or anybody else to pretend is the problem.
The problem is a big sweaty machine that must sell weapons and nukes to pay
for outlandish parties on the private islands and the huge lumps of gold they think they can buy food with when the rapture does not work out as they planned.
Thank you Bettina for speaking up at this atrocity,I'm embarrassed I even bothered to vote for him.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
It is unfortunate when snarkiness is substituted for rationality, because it discourages an open-minded examination of issues, especially issues where the truth appears to be hidden. We on the Progressive end of the American political spectrum cannot afford snarkiness, and sadly it is so often used as a weapon by the Conservative factions. America's involvement in the Middle East, Afghanistan, and Pakistan is fraught with duplicity and secrecy. If we follow the money, it is not complicated to unravel the basic plot: Create an enemy in an impoverished country, invade, and use the invasion and the created enemy as a justification for seizing ever more of the Gross National Product, all the while decreasing freedoms here in America. Snarkiness will not serve us well if we are ever to free ourselves from the yoke of corporatocratic exploitation.
Snark is appropriate when confronted by such absurdity as the budding OBL deather conspiracy. It is not rational and rational discourse is an utter waste of time when dealing with such ridiculous crap. It's like putting lipstick on a pig - does no good and pisses off the pig. Progressives need to lighten up and learn make more fun of the bullshit around us. And that includes "progressive" bullshit like 911 trutherism. Oy. Y'all are so fracking grim that sympathetic people tune you out. And I say that as one who got his start as a ban-the-bomber in 1960. Never met anyone with less of a sense of humor than a Stalinist, and there were a fair number of them in the peace movement in those days. LSD did those asshats in. But I digress.
PS: I'll grant you that the Moon landing remark was a bit of a cheap shot.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
.... We on the Progressive end of the American political spectrum cannot afford snarkiness, ....
oh sure We can.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by geomancer:
Snark is appropriate when confronted by such absurdity as the budding OBL deather conspiracy. It is not rational and rational discourse is an utter waste of time when dealing with such ridiculous crap. It's like putting lipstick on a pig - does no good and pisses off the pig. Progressives need to lighten up and learn make more fun of the bullshit around us. And that includes "progressive" bullshit like 911 trutherism. Oy. Y'all are so fracking grim that sympathetic people tune you out. And I say that as one who got his start as a ban-the-bomber in 1960. Never met anyone with less of a sense of humor than a Stalinist, and there were a fair number of them in the peace movement in those days. LSD did those asshats in. But I digress.
PS: I'll grant you that the Moon landing remark was a bit of a cheap shot.
I'm not one to jump on conspiracy bandwagons, but your casual dismissal also doesn't sit well with me. From what you wrote, people are better off just accepting the government, military, corporate, and media version of events, and moving on to the next charade of lies, deception, and distortion. Do you really think the government has told the truth about bin Laden's death? Moreover, some relatively clear-headed, professionally experienced individuals have questioned the government's version of the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings, and most of the objections raised to those questions or hypotheses sound a lot like yours: you're idiots, and we need to move on. Laws were broken (e.g., the Bush administration) but "I don't believe in looking back, we need to look forward" (Obama paraphrased).
What part of truth frightens you, and why must you malign and ridicule others who aren't yet convinced of the "official" versions of events? Do you not think the future of any society wouldn't be better served knowing the full truth about those events? Or, is moving into a future obscured by past injustice and crime just fine with you? I assert you can't heal, "move on," and create sounder relationships without full acknowledgement of the truth. Burying the truth in lies and justifications is really what pisses off the pig. You yourself sound a lot like a Bible-thumping fundamentalist to me! Just take the word of ... well, who exactly?
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Phloem, your response is brilliant. Incisive. Many citizens today live in a dream-state, unconscious, in a trance facilitated by the media and transmitted by "talking heads" and pundits and mavens. Here's a comment I made to a thread today about horror movies that accurately describes the trance most citizens live in. Snarkiness is a symptom of trance.
"I get my horror from reading the news. Flesh-eating zombies in the U.S. Congress feed off the middle class and the poor. The Republican Party and the Tea Party are slashers every bit as evil as Freddy Kruger. The U.S.A.F. Predator drones and Hellfire missiles are serial killers. The media are brain-eating monsters. The billionaire Koch brothers and their ilk are alien invaders subjugating America. The system in its entirety is a murdering Transformer that has converted a progressive ideal, the humanitarian democratic nation, America, into a death machine that kills with impunity and without justice throughout the world. In this horror movie, the killer is hidden and the lighting is so bad its difficult to see it. The bodies lie everywhere: Twisted, shattered children, wedding parties blasted, whales starving, whole ecosystems oil-befouled, massive Texas-sized garbage patches in the middle of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.
"Horror movies are the way the collective unconscious presents us with the horror of the reality we live that we may perhaps wake up and fix it."
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Star Man,
and thank you for aptly illustrating that what for so many in this country passes as "normal" is nothing less than utter insanity. No need for the details here, but the abhorrence I have for the malevolence perpetrated "in our names" is an ongoing bludgeoning mess of a horror movie. Those who pass for "leaders" yet continue to lobby for, legislate, and vote to fund such outright crimes against humanity are beyond contempt, with no shred of humanity or compassion left whatsoever. Killing bin Laden accomplished nothing in the way of ascending from the depths of depravity that pass for American foreign (and domestic) policy.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Chanting "USA" and displaying joy over the death of any other human being is not something that is anything about which we should be proud. Frankly, it is disgusting. I'm not saying that the world is not better off without certain evil people who use misuse religion to justify killing others. We have enough examples right here in our nation.
Speaking of hate speech, it is time for all of us to become much more respectful of Christians. Bashing Christians is no less mean spirited than calling any other religious group by obnoxious names. For some reason West County has become increasingly hostile to the beliefs and presence of followers of Jesus. This is not PC. As for my friends who are fond of using "Jesus Christ" as an explicative, try substituting it with "Yahweh".
You yourself sound a lot like a Bible-thumping fundamentalist to me!
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Goodness gracious Rich, I'm really surprised you would have such a compliant view - is that really what you think, or are you just trying to provoke us? Just curious: on what basis do you form your beliefs that the official story about OBL is true or mostly so - what sources of information specifically, and how do you evaluate them?
I seem to think others have shown us many provocative things better than my ranting could, so I'll post a few more links for the curious and serious student.
"The Power Of Nightmares"
Short Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbkvz4hezmU
The Power of Nightmares Part 1-Baby it's Cold Outside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5lByw7kvS0
The Power of Nightmares Part 2 - The Phantom Victory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai6LhnW4Oa8
The Power of Nightmares Part 3 - The Shadows in the Cave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HvzR8w1z2g
Adam Curtis is an amazing documentary film-maker, who made the fairly well known BBC docu-series "The Century of The Self", about the impact of advertising on us, and it's roots in Edward Bernaise, a nephew of Freud who basically invented the modern science of propaganda. I recommend it highly. But in this context, he created another 3 part docu-series called "The Power Of Nightmares" about the modern history of the use of fabricated fearful bogeymen as tools of political control. (complete with Brian Eno in the soundtrack) It is a masterpiece.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
How about if we bash and disrespect all types of superstition equally?
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Posted in reply to the post by battindown:
...
Speaking of hate speech, it is time for all of us to become much more respectful of Christians. Bashing Christians is no less mean spirited than calling any other religious group by obnoxious names. For some reason West County has become increasingly hostile to the beliefs and presence of followers of Jesus. This is not PC. As for my friends who are fond of using "Jesus Christ" as an explicative, try substituting it with "Yahweh".
You yourself sound a lot like a Bible-thumping fundamentalist to me!
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
How about if we bash and disrespect all types of superstition equally?
We realize you are deliberately being crass, offensive and intolerant. Perhaps you would benefit from reading Joseph Campbell's works on myths.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by battindown:
Chanting "USA" and displaying joy over the death of any other human being is not something that is anything about which we should be proud. Frankly, it is disgusting. I'm not saying that the world is not better off without certain evil people who use misuse religion to justify killing others. We have enough examples right here in our nation.
Speaking of hate speech, it is time for all of us to become much more respectful of Christians. Bashing Christians is no less mean spirited than calling any other religious group by obnoxious names. For some reason West County has become increasingly hostile to the beliefs and presence of followers of Jesus. This is not PC. As for my friends who are fond of using "Jesus Christ" as an explicative, try substituting it with "Yahweh".
You yourself sound a lot like a Bible-thumping fundamentalist to me!
Battindown - offending religious beliefs was not what I had in mind, but since you jumped to the conclusion that I was referring to "Christians," how is chiding others for basing their beliefs on faith (such as those in denial who trust government and media versions of reality), or on myths created thousands of years ago, "hate speech"? Moreover, who are you to decide who is truly Christian? I don't necessarily have a belief in the son of god, but many people who likewise refute the myths perpetuated through religious dogma live far more exemplary lives of compassion, love, respect, and kindness than do many of those who profess to be "followers" of Jesus Christ. Or haven't you been paying attention to national politics for the last few decades, what with so-called christians having no problem sentencing people to death, whether by bomb or lethal injection? Perhaps you should review Joseph Campbell before insulting others with your insinuations of hatred and bigotry, or your presumption that you know better than others the foundations of love, respect, and tolerance.
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No buddy, I'm just pointing out the truth and offering an equal-treatment politically correct alternative.
Every culture has myth and superstition. Most cultures do not realize that they are operating per myth and superstition. They are quick to dismiss or belittle the myth/superstition of other cultures, they refuse to recognize, much less acknowledge and examine, their own.
Here's a current example:
When the news of the San Francisco ballot initiative to ban male genital mutilation (circumcision) on minors was announced earlier this month, there was quite a lot of discussion, including on this board, about how male circumcision could not possibly be compared to female genital mutilation. After all, different body parts are cut! FGM removes more stuff! FGM is done to control women's sexual pleasure while circumcision is done for... um.... er.... cleanliness! FGM is done by black people in Africa in mud huts, while circumcision is done by white people in North America on the dining room table or in a hospital, depending on whether it is ritual or medicalized mutilation! They use scissors and knives, while we use a fancy clamp designed by mohels in the early 1900s and a scalpel... and sometimes scissors.
The truth is, female genital mutilation and male circumcision both have all the hallmarks of genital mutilation cultural traditions. Not coincidentally, they both come from the same part of the world (Africa and the Middle East) and similar cultures (patriarchical desert god warrior variety). While we are quick to decry and outlaw FGM, we cannot face the truth of our own male genital mutilation tradition, much less outlaw it as it should have been long ago.
If you want the whole story on the similarities between FGM and male circumcision, read this:
https://www.nocirc.org/symposia/third/hanny3.html
Yes, I am being intolerant. From what I've seen of our culture's myth and superstition, especially the patriarchical/dominator Abrahamic ones that are still unfortunately with us, they have caused nothing but death, destruction, suffering, and ruined lives. It's the fundamental cause of the entire binLaden scenario. Why should I tolerate that?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by battindown:
We realize you are deliberately being crass, offensive and intolerant. Perhaps you would benefit from reading Joseph Campbell's works on myths.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog:
I am celebrating the fact that I voted for a liar, and another puppet of the aristocracy...I'm embarrassed I even bothered to vote for him.
During the Presidential campaign I tried to reason with my liberal friends, right here on Wacco, pointing out the danger signs. I reminded them that they'd had such high hopes for Clinton who turned out to be just another shill for the ruling class, and now they had the same starry-eyed hopes about Obama. Mostly I received disrespect as a result. People seemed to see me as some kind of terrible cynic, instead of a realist. Now that Obama's fucked the world over in several different ways, some of you who voted for him against my advice are starting to come around. Most are still making excuses for him, saying the GOP forced him to do this or that and bla bla bla, but occasionally someone says "Damn, I voted for Obama and he too turned out to be corrupt." I salute you for your honesty, Nico.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Personally, I enjoy a snark attack every once in a while... keeps my attention focused!
:heart:
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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
oh sure We can.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
It is unfortunate when snarkiness is substituted for rationality, because it discourages an open-minded examination of issues, especially issues where the truth appears to be hidden. We on the Progressive end of the American political spectrum cannot afford snarkiness, and sadly it is so often used as a weapon by the Conservative factions. America's involvement in the Middle East, Afghanistan, and Pakistan is fraught with duplicity and secrecy. If we follow the money, it is not complicated to unravel the basic plot: Create an enemy in an impoverished country, invade, and use the invasion and the created enemy as a justification for seizing ever more of the Gross National Product, all the while decreasing freedoms here in America. Snarkiness will not serve us well if we are ever to free ourselves from the yoke of corporatocratic exploitation.
So, polite snarkiness by you is OK, though?
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by jbox:
So, polite snarkiness by you is OK, though?
Hello, Jbox,
I read and re-read my comment and I just don't see the "polite snarkiness" you refer to. If you can help me, please do so. Thanks in advance. Starman
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
Hello, Jbox,
I read and re-read my comment and I just don't see the "polite snarkiness" you refer to. If you can help me, please do so. Thanks in advance. Starman
Oh, I guess your view of American foreign policy as one huge conspiracy by the neocons and the Trilateral Commission seems politely snarky to me, though it really is the Stalinist model. Remember that progressive leader? And to think that Obama is totally going along with it well, what can I say? I've been accused of being snarky on this site, BTW and I regard it as a badge of honor. You're welcome in arrears.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by jbox:
Oh, I guess your view of American foreign policy as one huge conspiracy by the neocons and the Trilateral Commission seems politely snarky to me, though it really is the Stalinist model. Remember that progressive leader? And to think that Obama is totally going along with it well, what can I say? I've been accused of being snarky on this site, BTW and I regard it as a badge of honor. You're welcome in arrears.
JBox,
Thanks for the clarification. I regard my point of view as accurate, not snarky. However, the neocons and the Trilateral Commission are only a part of the corporatocracy. The corporatocracy is not a conspiracy, it's an overt, easily observable operation. Some of its actions are conspiratorial and covert, but the plan itself is there for all to see. It's a simple as this: At the end of Eisenhower's presidency the military budget was about $400 billion per year. At the end of the Vietnam invasion it was $800 billion. When the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan are added in to the direct budget and the indirect costs are included, the amount we spend today is about $1.2 Trillion. It's as plain as the numbers.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
... I regard my point of view as accurate, not snarky. ....
as do all of God's other misguided children, I'm sure. Maybe it's unfair of me but there's something about the combination of what sounds to me like psych jargon and worldview, with a smattering of conspiracy claims, that seems kinda silly. I suppose, since you've apparently been immersed in it as a career for decades, it's unavoidable. I suppose my own career colors my writing too.
But quotes like "Thoughts like these become more difficult to think when our animal instincts cloud our cognitions, and that is precisely what the powerful count on." "Many citizens today live in a dream-state, unconscious, in a trance facilitated by the media" and some of the comments you've made (on other threads) that imply that the readers here aren't able to think clearly on their own bug the hell out of me. I don't know why more people don't find that aspect of pop psych more infuriating - I guess because most people assume they're on the side of those who see through the traps that are affecting the other poor souls. It's unfortunately a real common trend in public discussions. It attempts to infantilize the other party's point of view by denying that they control their own thoughts.
Lumping in the Trilateral Commission, the Builderbergers, or who else knows what highly-organized boogiemen there are out there in with what Eisenhower described as "the military-industrial complex" seems unnecessary. Simple self-interest on the parts of readily visible organizations explains what's happening just fine. I bet that whoever's -really- behind the Trilateral Commission is just using Bush, etc as puppets anyway... it's probably just a front.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
...
But quotes like "Thoughts like these become more difficult to think when our animal instincts cloud our cognitions, and that is precisely what the powerful count on." "Many citizens today live in a dream-state, unconscious, in a trance facilitated by the media" and some of the comments you've made (on other threads) that imply that the readers here aren't able to think clearly on their own bug the hell out of me. I don't know why more people don't find that aspect of pop psych more infuriating - I guess because most people assume they're on the side of those who see through the traps that are affecting the other poor souls. It's unfortunately a real common trend in public discussions. It attempts to infantilize the other party's point of view by denying that they control their own thoughts.
...
Sure seems to me that large parts of the "right" are driven by fear, an animal instinct (and greed, which is related to fear). I'm sure the "liberal media" is both willingly and unwillingly contributes to spinning their own webs of reality as well, most of which is not that much dissimilar to the "right".
Many, many people are less sophisticated consumers of news than we are. And I know there's many webs of trance/unreality that I fall prey to.
I'm with Starman on this.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
as do all of God's other misguided children, I'm sure. Not everyone who has an informed opinion they are confident of is misguided...... .
EXACTLY - just follow the money and you'll see who is doing the most controlling - the round table groups are for the most part the instruments of power, not the source of it. I don't think you are really so far apart after all...
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
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Posted in reply to the post by David8:
intelligent caring people like most folks on wacco slip into flame wars
?? sorry, saying "Jane, you ignorant slut" is starting a flame war. Just like not every opinion is as informed as its owner might hope, not every objection is as gentle as some might want. There's a long tradition of mild insults in political discourse. The brits have been great at it - we need more of it here. YMMV. As to whether psychology is "as real as anything in world events" I beg to differ. See some of Dixon's other threads for ideas about what's real. Neither economics or psychology are yet valid sciences. That's not to say that such disciplines have nothing to offer, but I find that people use principles from both (damn, I spelled principals wrong a few posts ago and it still bugs me) in inappropriate settings. SM has (not so much here, but on another thread) used pop psych jargon and attitudes to dismiss the points of views of others, and I find that (to use the language poorly myself) an attempt to deflect the argument, and far more disrespectful than a straightforward insult.
There's an admittedly subtle difference between pointing out how people can be caught in flawed thinking and dismissing them altogether as automatons being controlled by outside forces. I don't in the least believe that people are often rational or analytical - but it's a cheesy way to explain away why people don't seem to understand what's being done to them. Maybe I use that approach myself sometimes; that doesn't make it a particularly strong argument.
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Posted in reply to the post by David8:
I don't think you are really so far apart after all...
maybe not on a political spectrum. But there's a huge difference between seeing our situation caused by emergent behavior of a bunch of individuals and being driven by malevelent and organized cabals. Depending on which is true different actions need to be taken if you want to improve the future. Sure, maybe that will turn out to be the case. It sure seems more satisfying to many people to seem so. I just don't see compelling evidence that it's true. Sagan's law - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - applies here. If an ant colony can self-organize then Wall Street 'crooks' can destroy our economy without coordinated overlords too.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by David8:
intelligent caring people like most folks on wacco slip into flame wars
?? sorry, saying "Jane, you ignorant slut" is starting a flame war. Just like not every opinion is as informed as its owner might hope, not every objection is as gentle as some might want. There's a long tradition of mild insults in political discourse. The brits have been great at it - we need more of it here. YMMV. As to whether psychology is "as real as anything in world events" I beg to differ. See some of Dixon's other threads for ideas about what's real. Neither economics or psychology are yet valid sciences. That's not to say that such disciplines have nothing to offer, but I find that people use principles from both (damn, I spelled principals wrong a few posts ago and it still bugs me) in inappropriate settings. SM has (not so much here, but on another thread) used pop psych jargon and attitudes to dismiss the points of views of others, and I find that (to use the language poorly myself) an attempt to deflect the argument, and far more disrespectful than a straightforward insult.
There's an admittedly subtle difference between pointing out how people can be caught in flawed thinking and dismissing them altogether as automatons being controlled by outside forces. I don't in the least believe that people are often rational or analytical - but it's a cheesy way to explain away why people don't seem to understand what's being done to them. Maybe I use that approach myself sometimes; that doesn't make it a particularly strong argument.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by David8:
I don't think you are really so far apart after all...
maybe not on a political spectrum. But there's a huge difference between seeing our situation caused by emergent behavior of a bunch of individuals and being driven by malevolent and organized cabals. Depending on which is true different actions need to be taken if you want to improve the future. Sure, maybe that will turn out to be the case. It sure seems more satisfying to many people to think so. I just don't see compelling evidence that it's true. Sagan's law - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - applies here. If an ant colony can self-organize then Wall Street 'crooks' can destroy our economy without coordinated overlords too.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Psychology today is evidence-based, meaning it is an empirical science that measures its outcomes with well-researched, established assessment tools.
To assert that psychology is not a valid science is just plain foolish. I want to be clear, Podfish, that I believe what you say is foolish, I am not saying you are a foolish person. I am sure you are well-meaning and want the best for America.
What intrigues me is what threatens you and a few others on Wacco so much about the idea that human behavior could be motivated by unresolved childhood issues? I wonder too what you find so threatening about the idea that an American corporatocracy exists that manipulates public opinion for its own benefit? Please respond to these two questions. Please try not to attack me for asking them. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
"If an ant colony can self-organize then Wall Street 'crooks' can destroy our economy without coordinated overlords too."
Your analogies are amusing and thought-provoking, if not quite apt. Yes, ant colonies are amazingly "self-organized," through hormonal and other chemical communication, the queen blinding the workers and warriors in the colony with "science." Perhaps the unifying chemistry of Wall Street (and many other "colonies" of capitalism) is greed - overlords aren't really necessary when the unifying principle is never questioned by the workers and warriors.
One weak point in the analogy is that humans, unlike ants, make conscious decisions. Such decisions include colluding to defraud the public (aka, the consumer). At some point, competition, legal or otherwise, renders the need for "overlords" moot - the greed demands alignment, playing by rules, illegal or not. Power, intractably linked to greed, drives decisions to arm the world beyond all reason -- are those decisions not made by a select group of individuals? What about fiscal and monetary policy? "Free" trade agreements? Do you think these decisions are made at random? I'd guess that lust for money and power (greed), in western culture, is as effective an overlord as any group of people could be. I don't see anything inappropriate about lumping those who know no master other than greed together as co-conspirators.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Star Man:
Psychology today is evidence-based, meaning it is an empirical science that measures its outcomes with well-researched, established assessment tools.
To assert that psychology is not a valid science is just plain foolish. I want to be clear, Podfish, that I believe what you say is foolish, I am not saying you are a foolish person. I am sure you are well-meaning and want the best for America.
What intrigues me is what threatens you and a few others on Wacco so much about the idea that human behavior could be motivated by unresolved childhood issues? I wonder too what you find so threatening about the idea that an American corporatocracy exists that manipulates public opinion for its own benefit? Please respond to these two questions. Please try not to attack me for asking them. Thanks in advance.
I can't tell whether that's an example of the drollest sense of humour I've seen for a while or not... I hope it is. To respond in kind: it's true, psychology - and for that matter economics - are rapidly becoming more rigorous as the years go by. I don't deny there can be some value in its study, though it's a lot more faddish than I like to see. But I'm puzzled why you seem to see that idea as a personal threat, to the point where you seem afraid I'll attack you for expressing it?? I'm wondering if you and those others who see conspiracies everywhere are influence by unresolved adolescent issues with a threatening adult world?? And why do you insist on projecting this fear on those of us expressing ideas that differ from yours? What prevents you from seeing that fear or some other submerged emotional factor from the past has little or nothing to do with the ideas I have?? Why constrain the options like that?
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
Just like not every opinion is as informed as its owner might hope, not every objection is as gentle as some might want.....
As much as I roll my eyes at his ranting obnoxious style, I have to recommend Alex Jones documentaries as providing provocative food for thought on these topics - he's great at connecting dots - and even if he gets some of it wrong, he presents a compelling analysis that has me convinced on a number of broad strokes. Just use the discernment watching him that you would with anything else. I recommend:
The Fall Of The Republic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU
The Obama Deception: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw
Better still, and more uplifting - watch some David Icke:
David Icke - The Big Picture -16 Feb 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnG8DhULTGs
And if you have not yet - PLEASE watch at least some of "The Power Of Nightmares" links posted above - this is very credible and illuminating to the specific "war on terror" context.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
What prevents you from seeing that fear or some other submerged emotional factor from the past has little or nothing to do with the ideas I have??
Podfish, I asked the question "what threatens you about the idea that human behavior could be motivated by unresolved childhood issues?" and you respond by asking what prevents me from seeing that past fear has nothing to do with the ideas you have? You have not responded directly to my question. Clearly, you have an opinion that fear has nothing to do with your ideas. So, I get it: your indirect answer to my question appears to be that what threatens you about the idea that human behavior could be motivated by unresolved childhood issues is that you hold the opinion that fear has nothing to do with your ideation.
Let me clarify why I hold the belief I do. A wealth of empirical research has verified that the emotional state a person is in affects the content of that person's thinking. When an angry state is induced in a subject, for example, that subject's thoughts will be measurably different from controls. Same with fear. I do not have an opinion on this matter, I have an empirically supported belief.
Podfish, I do not fear that you will attack me for my empirically supported belief. I asked you politely not to attack me, because I am hoping to have a rational discussion based on empirically supported data.
You also wrote "I can't tell whether that's an example of the drollest sense of humour I've seen for a while or not... I hope it is. To respond in kind...." The word "droll" means "quaintly amusing" or "surprising." I am struggling to see how my statement of fact that psychology is an empirical, evidence-based science could be considered quaintly amusing or even surprising. That seems odd, but what seems even odder is that you go on to say you will "respond in kind." So, apparently your assertion that "fear or some other submerged emotional factor from the past has little or nothing to do with the ideas I have" was intended to be droll, as in quaintly amusing. I agree with you completely, Podfish. Your assertion that fear from the past has nothing to do with your ideas is indeed quaintly amusing.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead and We are Celebrating ?
