Leaf Blowers

Hi all:

The Sebastopol Peaceful Air Effort is a movement to better the air quality and serenity in our small town by way of regulating the use of leaf blowers. The environmental impact is silent and (potentially) deadly. Currently, leaf blowers are used by the city to “clear” seemingly clear paths, as one would be challenged to find many fallen leaves in our area. The bottom line is that we feel they are unnecessary and a hazard to our health – respiratory, auditory, and mental. Help us to make a change. Would you, please? A petition is located at the site linked below:

https://progressivesource.org/Sebast...ort/index.html


PS: The City Council hearing is this coming Tuesday, March 1 at 6:30pm, if anyone would like to attend, speak, and/or react.

Thanks for posting this. The site above has helpful links along with excellent disturbing video by Jonathan Greenburg of Progressive Source Communications in Sebastopol of someone using a gas powered leaf blower to "clean" an already clean path in Libby Park (aka Super Playground). Astounding! It's a no brainer that this should not be happening. This under the direct control of our city government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trjJ...embedded#at=77

Hi, Just a quick observation. I went to sign the "Peaceful Air Petition", but the link to sign the petition is obscured by the YouTube video clip, as in, it hides behind the video. I cannot sign the petition online. Can you fix this?

Best, Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Thanks for posting this. The site above has helpful links along with excellent disturbing video by Jonathan Greenburg of Progressive Source Communications in Sebastopol of someone using a gas powered leaf blower to "clean" an already clean path in Libby Park (aka Super Playground). Astounding! It's a no brainer that this should not be happening. This under the direct control of our city government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trjJ...embedded#at=77

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For those wanting to sign the petition to regulate leaf blowers and could not find it at the youtube site above, you can find it here on waccobb.net a few messages below this one. It will also soon be up on the website above. I encourage people to consider signing it and coming to the March 1 Sebastopol City Council meeting at 6:30. At that time Jonathan will be presenting a powerpoint presentation and video on the hazards of leaf blowers and then the floor will be open to the public as we consider how best to reduce the harmful health impacts of blowers.
Shepherd

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

For those wanting to sign the petition to regulate leaf blowers and could not find it at the youtube site above, you can find it here on waccobb.net a few messages below this one. It will also soon be up on the website above. I encourage people to consider signing it and coming to the March 1 Sebastopol City Council meeting at 6:30. At that time Jonathan will be presenting a powerpoint presentation and video on the hazards of leaf blowers and then the floor will be open to the public as we consider how best to reduce the harmful health impacts of blowers.
Shepherd

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I just found the petition online and it works fine now; some great videos on Related Videos section. I know some think this is a marginal or small "why bother issue." But please check out the scientific facts about what is really happening when leaf blowers blow particulates around at 200 mph and it stays in the air in our parks around schools for THREE DAYS!
Sign the petition and read all about it at:
https://www.progressivesource.org/Se...efulAirEffort/

Everyone who signs the petition are you all willing to pay the gardener more because of the extra time it takes to sweep and rake up the leaves? It is so much faster with a blower.
I can see have a ordince For a time you can start up the blower in the morning and later on the weekend.
Where this go tell Carpenter they have banned Skillsaw's

government is not your daddy, common decency would seem to be the rule here.Are we so messed up that we cant do that.The danger isnt leaf blowers, the danger is bringing the government in to make more laws for our"safety"Right on this website we have a group of good people who are trying to have a small house community on acreage, who in their right minds thinks sonoma co. will give into such an idea.Government will not help you in the end we as people will, dont you see that?

No I do not see that. If that were the case, we would not have leaf blowers disturbing and disrupting and sending toxic particulate matter into our air to breathe every single day.

It is no more a danger to have our city protect us against toxic leaf blowers ad excess noise than it is a "danger" to have them allow your neighbor to open a 24-hour disco in his backyard.

I have raked and swept leaves and debris and it is a decent workout and when factoring in the time to care and maintain and fuel a leaf blower, takes no longer. I do not want these things polluting the air that I or my children breathe, nor disrupting my conversations. It is nobody's "right" to do wrong to their neighbors, and it is the responsibility of government to regulate activity when this happens.

I urge all readers of this to sign the petition on this website
https://www.progressivesource.org/Se...efulAirEffort/.

Wow! What a reaction from everyone. :wink: Here's my little contribution on getting CREATIVE and RESOURCEFUL.

While noise is an inherent fact of life, and/or problem... for me personally, it's much more about the decibel rating, how prolonged the noise lasts, and the time of day.

Noise Pollution and Adverse Affects:

https://www.epa.gov/air/noise.html

Yes. I agree that we can't put the lid on all types of noise. So how about making some changes around the creation of noise?
Santa Baby... I've been good, so please send me some eco-friendly garden gear so I can take back my quiet hood!

Decibel Reader:

https://www.amazon.com/Extech-407730.../dp/B000EWY67W

Secondly, I speculate that the city worker is using the blower as a combo lawn edger to save time, labor and fatigue instead of using a blade edger??? That's at least worth saving the city on a Worker's Comp case.

Eco Friendly and Quiet Blower:

https://www.echo-usa.com/prods_list....ry=POWERBLOWERhttps://www.echo-usa.com/prods_list....ry=POWERBLOWER

Here's one being tested in Los Angeles...

https://articles.latimes.com/1998/aug/18/local/me-14178

Here' what a solar powered leaf sucker looks like... SolMan Chazling... where are you in this emerging business opportunity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DPltKwmhzM

Or, how about the city purchasing a rechargeable battery powered (quieter) edger?

Lawn Edger:

https://www.nextag.com/battery-power.../products-html



I LOVE the Internet.



Best,

Jennifer at Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by wildfire:

government is not your daddy, common decency would seem to be the rule here.Are we so messed up that we cant do that.The danger isnt leaf blowers, the danger is bringing the government in to make more laws for our"safety"Right on this website we have a group of good people who are trying to have a small house community on acreage, who in their right minds thinks sonoma co. will give into such an idea.Government will not help you in the end we as people will, dont you see that?

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If you feel the need to chill, have a listen to this controversy rendered to music:
https://new.music.yahoo.com/doug-jay...ues--217565264

Well sebastopol with all the worlds problems your city council has voted to ban leaf blowers, i said ban, so there will be warnings, fines, possible jail. Investigations of no business license possibly,undocumented workers all sorts of things, feel safer now?governmentis your daddy in sebastopol.Oh cty workers can use blowers but the working man cant.I wonder if the citizens of sebastopol who pay the workers are willing to pay the same rate for rakers and broom pushers to do the job i think not.The people that pushed this through are a bunch of elitists who have no rspect for the vast majority of working people or their families, maybe someone should make you work for a living instead of growing pot. How sad! !:hmmm:

Ban??? Not at all what I wanted to see happen. In fact, I went to the website to sign the petition, and could not find the link to sign into. As it happens, I'm glad I did not sign the petition because:

• I would have rather seen a movement toward SOLUTIONS before a "banning".
• It costs $$$ to enforce the ban or ordinance.
• I did NOT know enough to sign the petition without understanding the ramifications.
• I can empathize and understand that "power tools" are a VITAL necessity in the landscapers helping hands. I would want a leaf blower too, albeit, perhaps a quieter one.
• I don't like black and white, when the gray areas have not been explored. Life does not work this way.
  

Forgive my ignorance, as I haven not been keenly following this movement; but I certainly would PUSH for a collaborative effort in coming up with ways to resolve the problem without making it a WIN-LOSE situation. Compromise is more my mindset.

Earlier this week I commented on the ban with some solutions to the problem. Just scroll up and look for my "gravatar" image.



Best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by wildfire:

Well sebastopol with all the worlds problems your city council has voted to ban leaf blowers, i said ban, so there will be warnings, fines, possible jail. Investigations of no business license possibly,undocumented workers all sorts of things, feel safer now?governmentis your daddy in sebastopol.Oh cty workers can use blowers but the working man cant.I wonder if the citizens of sebastopol who pay the workers are willing to pay the same rate for rakers and broom pushers to do the job i think not.The people that pushed this through are a bunch of elitists who have no rspect for the vast majority of working people or their families, maybe someone should make you work for a living instead of growing pot. How sad! !:hmmm:

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Solution: rake leaves, put them on the compost heap, grow organic garden. What is elitist and anti working persons, about not wanting a noisy machine raising dirt?

Attila
...

First, the petition indeed works. Half the people signing have signed paper versions, but many others can and continue to sign online at www.ProgressiveSource.org.

Second, this is not about all power tools Jennifer. I agree that chain saws and weed whackers and the like are necessary. But this is for the city of Sebastopol; which means homes close together and not huge properties. The singling out of leaf blowers is not just because a leaf blower for a half hour causes as much Co2 emissions as a car driven 440 miles. But that it propels toxic particulate matter into the air at 200 mph. WHICH STAYS THERE FOR DAYS for neighbors and children and pets to breathe! What's more, the noise is terribly disruptive.

This issue comes around to people's right to pollute the air and quiet of their neighbors.

As for costing money to enforce, I think 90% of enforcement will come through people and their gardeners voluntarily complying by switching to brooms and rakes, and the other 9% changing because their neighbors ask them to (as neighbors do now when a music party gets too loud or goes too late), and the last 1% (or less), when those using leaf blowers refuse to comply with their neighbors request and police need to be called in response to a complaint. I think these cases will be rare and not repeated. In other words, no incremental costs of compliance.

Thanks for you reply Johnathan. Much appreciated.

But what do you think of the the option for a quieter version of a leaf "sucker"?

OR...

How would you handle counter claims about other versions of particulate (air pollution) in the air from other park maintenance sources? I'm not trying to be flippant with you here, but just begging the question; at what point do we as a community put the lid on dust and particulate from public and private sources?

FURTHER BEGGING THE QUESTION about dust particulates...

How about city or private wood-chippers, their noise, and the velocity at which debris comes out of the chip chute?

OTHER TYPES OF PARK PARTICULATES caused by park maintenance...

How about the pollen particulates created from the city mowing park lawns and the noise their lawnmowers create? I'm allergic to fresh cut grass on my skin and in their air. All my life I have dreaded walking in a public park during or after the grass has been cut, to the point I have to leave. If grass is being cut nearby or in a park, the particulate wafts in the air for a few days; it drifts and invades my senses.

However, I cannot ask the city to stop the loud noise of their wood chipper, or to replace all park lawns with non-grass landscape. I cannot ask the family tending to their enjoyment of a park BBQ or fire-pit to stop creating their air and smoke pollution. The best I can do is to move my body out of the way of the irritant until it subsides...or, I can find out which days the city is cutting the grass and visit the park on the days they won't be there.

I know it seems as if I'm trying to squash your point. Contrary, what I'm attempting to do is make comparisons about noise, types of particulate, dust, allergies and how these attributes collectively affect people. In order to quantify and qualify, then all things contributing to the whole must be critically thought out, so as to RULE OUT objections from others... so as not to offend another persons human ability to "reason" an argument for their side.

It seems to me this is a matter of morals, values and ethics... and these are individually held beliefs depending on many variables. To me the best way to resolve issues is to first attempt reasonable solutions and to take all the stake-holders that have something to win and something to lose into consideration FIRST.

This process may take time for trial and error, but in the end, perhaps it won't leave a community feeling divided and acrimonious, where some people to the whole of the equation may not have their voices heard. That's all I'm really trying to bring to light. It's not so much the problem that is causing me "pause", rather, it's the WAY it is being handled for BOTH sides of the argument.



Best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:

First, the petition indeed works. Half the people signing have signed paper versions, but many others can and continue to sign online at www.ProgressiveSource.org.

Second, this is not about all power tools Jennifer. I agree that chain saws and weed whackers and the like are necessary. But this is for the city of Sebastopol; which means homes close together and not huge properties. The singling out of leaf blowers is not just because a leaf blower for a half hour causes as much Co2 emissions as a car driven 440 miles. But that it propels toxic particulate matter into the air at 200 mph. WHICH STAYS THERE FOR DAYS for neighbors and children and pets to breathe! What's more, the noise is terribly disruptive.

This issue comes around to people's right to pollute the air and quiet of their neighbors.

As for costing money to enforce, I think 90% of enforcement will come through people and their gardeners voluntarily complying by switching to brooms and rakes, and the other 9% changing because their neighbors ask them to (as neighbors do now when a music party gets too loud or goes too late), and the last 1% (or less), when those using leaf blowers refuse to comply with their neighbors request and police need to be called in response to a complaint. I think these cases will be rare and not repeated. In other words, no incremental costs of compliance.

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Jennifer, that is a very thoughtful response and I appreciate it.

Leaf blowers are not like other machines.With the exception of some uses that I believe the Council plans to allow (like clearing tennis courts and the skateboard park bowls) they can easily be replaced with brooms and rakes to get tasks done the way they have been adequately done for centuries.

I have no problem with leaf sucking machines; and I believe they are in use at large parking lots (like Safeways) and will not be affected. But leaf blowers are not toxic because they blow leaves. They are toxic because they blow toxins into the air that neighbors must breathe. And their deafening noise disrupts peoples' lives and causes stress.

Let's look at the science; this is not my opinion, and all of these sources are easily linkable on out website at:
https://www.progressivesource.org/Se...h_hazards.html

In 2000, California EPA’s Air resources Board did an objective, exhaustive, study on the impact of leaf blowers on our communities. Their conclusion (not a “small group’s power point”) was to
“Avoid using leaf blowers and other dust-producing equipment.”

Leaf Blowers pollute in three ways:
1. Particulate Matter = Respiratory Illness
2. Noise = Illness-inducing stress, Discomfort & Hearing Loss
3. Polluting Emissions = Air Pollution & Global Warming

According to the California EPA Air Resources Board, the Particulate matter that they send into the air at 200 miles an hour is comprised of (on asphalt) smoke, soot, dust, salt, acids, metals. In landscaped areas it also contain fecal matter, pesticides, and mold

According to the State of California EPA Air Resources Board Particulate Matter aggravates asthma attacks, bronchitis and other lung diseases, and impairs the immune system.

Leaf blowers add to Particulate Matter emitted by cars and factories and other engines. According to a 2000 report by the Journal of the American Medical Association, all this particulate matter together in the USA is causes 22,000 to 52,000 deaths every year.

According to the Bay Area Air Quality Management District about 5 lbs of particulate matter per leaf blower per hour are swept into the air, where they can drift for three days or more before settling. One resident's leaf blower can send toxins into the air of 8 to 14 neighbors for days.

As for leaf blower noise, according to the US EPA, “Noise causes stress and the body reacts with increased adrenaline, changes in the heart rate, and elevated blood pressure. ..The fetus is not fully protected from its mother's response to stress...this indirect fetal response may threaten fetal development if it occurs early in pregnancy.”


According to the Orange County Grand Jury Report, in one hour, one leaf blower produces as much smog as 17 cars, and 30% of the fuel of inefficient two-stroke leaf blower engine is blown into the air unburned.

According to the California EPA Air Resources Board, one half-hour of one leaf-blower’s use is equivalent to one car driving 440 miles.

Let’s have a civil discussion, and hear opinions, based on the facts. Some may feel that their right to pollute trumps the right of their neighbors not to breathe that pollution. But let’s not pretend that leaf blowers do not cause toxic pollution and deafening noise.

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Posted in reply to the post by wildfire:

Well sebastopol with all the worlds problems your city council has voted to ban leaf blowers

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damn, I didn't realize that solving the world's problems was an alternative option. Wish we'd done that instead....

Hello Jonathan,

I understand the facts you're presenting. But will you comment on the other hazards of "particulates" that city park maintenance presents to patrons and neighbors? (I mentioned this in the previous thread).

Banning leaf blowers could cause an additional conflict; that is, stress related fatigue, carpal tunnel and lower back and rotator cuff use imposed on workers who do repetitive tasking, like raking. Personally, I know when I've raked a front lawn of leaves it proves to be quite a workout. This is great once in awhile, but everyday would take it's toll. My point, is that banning leaf blowers could cause a rise in workers comp cases and higher insurance rates for the city and for taxpayers.

Also, I can image that the city workers have rights to this conflict as well. Imagine, if they felt this were a violation of their rights to utilize tools that help ease their work... so as to reduce stress related injuries. Imagine if a particular city worker entered his job using a leaf blower as part of his "accoutrement" to help ease his work related fatigue, and then, suddenly one of his vital tools is taken away. This is similar to a chainsaw being taken away from a city worker and asking him to HAND saw the smaller branches off of ALL city trees.

I think it's dangerous to institute this ban without FIRST seeing how the system as a whole will be affected.

Imagine if the city workers rise up and assert their own rights with the city about fair labor laws and working conditions. Imagine attorneys representing one cause against another. Now we've opened Pandora's Box. The City of Sebastopol CANNOT afford this escalation. Think I'm be overly dramatic? I think not, as we've seen this kind of situation happen thousands of times across our litigious nation.


WHY DO I ASSERT THESES PROPHECIES???

Because when people in power dogmatically make decisions without considering the RIPPLE AFFECT to ALL parties concerned, then hurt, pain, and anger arise. I keep repeating on this thread, that the issue is with the way the decision making process has been handled; it has been easy on the problem and tough on the people. Yes, banning leaf blowers (seemingly) got rid of the problem, and then REPLACED it with a NEW conflict. Bravo!

Please, tell me I can have more faith in our people's ability to reason their way through a mine field.

Facts to support the values you hold about leaf blowers are well founded, but leaf blowers are not the only bad apple in the crate. Again, the reason I am begging the question is to ask readers to exercise their critical thinking skills about this conflict. We can do SO MUCH better folks. Let's mitigate a potential costly battle here, and go back to the drawing board with an intelligent strategy to solve this dilemma in a way that is FAIR and democratic for all concerned. At least we can look back on the resolution knowing we exercised or best judgment in a well thought out and well reasoned way.



Best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:

Jennifer, that is a very thoughtful response and I appreciate it.....

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Hi Jennifer,

The notion that we in create liability because of carpal tunnel and such is the opposite of what I see as likely, and the opposite of what liability cases in the past has shown. Do you know the cost of the lawsuits from NYC rescue workers from the lung disease they incurred during the WTC 9-11 clean-up? Even though they had respirators to wear but chose not to; the rules were not enforced by the city so they have COLLECTED on claims in the billions of dollars. There is no question that the people most harmed by the toxins blown from the leaf blowers are the workers themselves.

I have never seen evidence of claims for carpal tunnel from brooms and rakes. I have read of many successful claims for respiratory illness and toxic pollution that workers were subjected to, everything from WTC clean-up workers to asbestos workers to citizens neighboring toxic dumps and factories. .

The likelihood that the city workers using leaf blowers are incurring occupational health hazards right now is far, far greater than the scenario you present above. And claims from city workers who continue to use leaf blowers in light of scientific proof of harm could be enormous. Legally, financially and ethically, our city would be better off banning leaf blowers than continuing to use them .

I have read a lot these past few days about the alternative of just being reasonable. I feel that in this case, this is a Darwinian argument that defies reality. It leaves the weakest among us to be subject to deafening noise and toxic pollution by the stronger among us. Do we really expect an 80- year old man or woman to approach a strong young leaf blowing neighbor or worker next door, in the midst of 80 or 100 decibel noise , and say, "please sir, use a rake?" This will NEVER happen. Likewise, a mom or dad with their hands full with infants at home, or those 90% of folks who do avoid confrontations, will "suck it up" and breathe the toxic air. This is not conjecture, Jennifer, this is current reality. If civility worked here, we would simply not be having this conversation, because landlords and neighbors using leaf blowers would approach their tenants and neighbors and HAVE ALREADY SAID, "would you mind if I use a leaf blower or would you prefer I use a rake and broom?" In conversations with scores of people, I have yet to hear a single one tell me that has ever happened. . Have you? That's the reality, that's the role of local government, and that's the necessity for legislation.

One core role of local government is to keep the peace and regulate behavior that in which some citizens impose upon others. This is one of those clear cases.
:Yinyangv:
Peace,
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

I don't beg to differ with the well-founded facts you present, or the rights of people.... I agree we should NOT to bear exposure to these harmful particulate; I am sympathetic to the plight the people face, the city faces, as well as the workers. I want a resolution, just like you.

Again, I just want to see the city step back and pause to take into consideration the ripple affect of their actions, and consider all social, health, legal and political systems that may be affected or be called into play as a result of their decision.

As an aside, on occasion I have seen landscape companies wearing respirator masks when they are using the leaf blowers. So, it is their so choice to protect their health from the immediate exposure of dust particulate, they can exercise this right.

As for the people in the imediate area that cannot and should not have to wear a respirator... Once more,

Will you comment on a comparison and a reasoned debate to other particulate matter that is induced by the city worker landscape crews? Wood chippers, chain saws, noise, debris and velocity of particulate when tree trunks are passed through the chute? Lawn mowing noise, pollen particulate, and the wafting of pollens into the air to the discomfort of park patrons.

Yes, Jonathan, I'm pushing you here, because I want to show me how you reason and critically think for the ban on leaf blowers, but not reason for a ban on comparable other apparatus that produce other types of pollinated dust and toxic particulate matter within a public park maintained by city workers. Fertilizers and acid rain that fall onto trees and grass produce particulates that are harmful to us as well. The by products of these harmful particulate are stirred up when cut or mowed just like the leaf blower stirs up toxic dust.

I'm pushing for solutions that study the affect the ban will have on everyone as a WHOLE. Then, once we've distilled input from all stake-holders, we can begin to put something into action that's founded on reason and not reaction.


Best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:

Hi Jennifer,

The notion that we in create liability because of carpal tunnel.....

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Hi Jonathan,

I found this link on the Internet:

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in Gardening, Raking, etc...

https://www.mastergardenproducts.com...repetative.htm

I had carpal tunnel myself from driving a UPS truck and lifting boxes for twelve years. My rotator cuff was giving out from using a non power steering truck in the Mill Valley hills. I was on Worker's Compensation. The company finally gave into my doctor's request to purchase a truck with power steering, as he deemed it "medically necessary" for me to continue with my job. It made all the difference for me to perform my work without pain or threat to my livelihood. This was not an isolated incident, as other drivers sustained repetitive use injuries as well. Soon after newly replaced trucks came with power steering. I suspect that landscape gardeners are faced with similar dilemmas in using rakes. I'll try to locate statistics.

Again, I'm not begging to differ with your facts or detract from the merit of your cause. I'm merely attempting to point out the ripple affect of how this decision will affect all stake-holders, and MOSTLY, the process and reasoning by how the decision to ban leaf blowers is reached.

If we are to give attention to leaf blowers to the exclusion of other particulate and toxic producing apparatus, then we must be prepared to face the argument, (TO LOGICALLY REASON) to exclude all other sources in favor of the leaf blower, as well as, in favor of removing a tool from the hands of a city worker who may very well RELY upon it to prevent repetitive use injuries. This is not a clear cut issue, if it were, then we wouldn't be seeing so many people up in arms over the decision. It needs MORE thought.

I wonder how other cities have chosen to work with the leaf blower ban and what ensued afterward.


Best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:

Hi Jennifer,

The notion that we in create liability because of carpal tunnel........

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I wonder how many people supporting this ban pay gardeners to do their work. If you do pay, can't you just ask politely that the gardener not use the leaf blower, and compensate him/her for the extra time? Why bring in the law and make problems for your neighbors?

Wow: we got press:
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...CLES/110309918
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...10309868?tc=ar
...and lots of feedback.

I offer the following to people who challenge the ban or who feel challenged by the ban:
If you think that it is a silly matter of temporarily annoying one’s nearby neighbors or passers-by, open up to learning something new and otherwise: About 5 lbs of particulate matter/leaf blower/hour are swept into the air & can drift for days before settling. One resident's leaf blower can affect 8-14 neighbors. (from Bay Area Air Quality Management District, a public agency created by the state legislature that is also on the side of doing away with these machines). To the person that claims the cars driven to a meeting pollute more than your leaf blower, learn and claim differently: a fifteen minute stint of leaf-blower use matches auto pollution if that auto drives 220 miles! (CA EPA) Of course, these are just two of several scientifically-backed rational reasons for the ban. And to all ye taxpayers, please communicate beyond these boards by making your voice heard through the city council; they exist to represent their public. So contact them, attend a meeting, sign a petition, and make change, not eye rolls.

:waccosun:

Interesting...

This should round out to be a compelling debate over values, science and people. I hope everyone is stretching their minds far and wide to examine BOTH sides of this issue in opposing viewpoints, facts, morals, values, ethics, precedence, etc. Otherwise, both sides of the argument will appear to be un-prepared to overcome obstacles.

The attorney's most of all; they will enjoy this. I truly hope the City of Sebastopol can resolve this on their own, without it getting litigious into one faction asserting rights over another. This can become a complex issue if not handled correctly.

All the best at next weeks meeting, and I will send good thoughts to ALL concerned...BOTH sides have valid points to be taken into consideration.


Best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

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Posted in reply to the post by Read411:

Wow: we got press:
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...CLES/110309918
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...10309868?tc=ar
...and lots of feedback.

I offer the following to people who challenge the ban or who feel challenged by the ban:
If you think that it is a silly matter of temporarily annoying one’s nearby neighbors or passers-by, open up to learning something new and otherwise: About 5 lbs of particulate matter/leaf blower/hour are swept into the air & can drift for days before settling. One resident's leaf blower can affect 8-14 neighbors. (from Bay Area Air Quality Management District, a public agency created by the state legislature that is also on the side of doing away with these machines). To the person that claims the cars driven to a meeting pollute more than your leaf blower, learn and claim differently: a fifteen minute stint of leaf-blower use matches auto pollution if that auto drives 220 miles! (CA EPA) Of course, these are just two of several scientifically-backed rational reasons for the ban. And to all ye taxpayers, please communicate beyond these boards by making your voice heard through the city council; they exist to represent their public. So contact them, attend a meeting, sign a petition, and make change, not eye rolls.

:waccosun:

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Hello everyone,

I've been making some phone calls to Environmental Consultants who specialize in air toxicology, noise, particulate matter, and carbon emissions emitted from leaf blowers, wood chippers, lawn mowers, and other types of toxic producing engine and non-engine sources. It's been a string of enlightening conversations over HOW these consultants approach problems like the one Sebastopol is facing; I'm hoping that the City of Sebastopol will be open to learning more from these types of consultants as this issue progresses.

An environmental consultant can easily come to speak at one of the city counsel meetings to bring perspective and critical thinking to this issue of co2, particulate dust toxins, and noise emitted from gas powered landscape equipment, including leaf blowers, wood chippers and lawn mowers. This way the public has a chance to see the issue spoken about from an authoritative stance; where there will be time for a Q & A.

Secondly, hiring a facilitator who specializes in conflict resolution, mediation and negotiation would be a nice addition to help represent everyone's needs, values and concerns at the meeting. Facilitators are keenly adept at remaining objective and impartial, while helping to identify the bigger picture of a social conflict. They identify all the stake-holders to the issue and balance out the debate, keeping it on track and within perspective.

I'm confident that if the city spends a little money for an environmental consultant and a mediator, it will be a WISE INVESTMENT in helping to round out the debate in a way that brings more clarity on how to proceed. The way I see it...this is a social, health and environmental issue. We need a set of GOOD DOCTORS to diagnose the problem before we move forward with a cure that will work for everyone.

The cost of an environmental consultant can range from $150 -$200 per hour. The cost of as mediator is about $100 to $150 per hour. I think we can either raise this amount or, perhaps the city can afford this to have a consultant speak at one of the public meetings. Heck, I think I can even persuade these two professions to give the city a discount rate or even FREE if there's some good Karma in it for them too. Good begets Good, right?

What do you think???


All the best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Sun Source Solar:

Interesting...

This should round out to be a compelling debate over values, science and people. I hope everyone is stretching their minds far and wide to examine BOTH sides of this issue in opposing viewpoints, facts, morals, values, ethics, precedence, etc. Otherwise, both sides of the argument will appear to be un-prepared to overcome obstacles.

The attorney's most of all; they will enjoy this. I truly hope the City of Sebastopol can resolve this on their own, without it getting litigious into one faction asserting rights over another. This can become a complex issue if not handled correctly.

All the best at next weeks meeting, and I will send good thoughts to ALL concerned...BOTH sides have valid points to be taken into consideration.


Best,

Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

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Jennifer, I appreciate the effort to find a middle ground here. I think our city will come to one pretty soon, which will make 98% or so of the people in Sebastopol happier with the situation than they are at this moment.

If I looked in my crystal ball, I would see this as likely to ban all gas powered leaf blowers, restrict city usage to special conditions like tennis courts and skateboard bowls and storm drains, prohibit toxic dust-blowing blowers on commercial hardscape surfaces while encouraging larger vacuum machines for parking lots, and allowing the private usage of electric powered blowers subject to day of week and hour restrictions. :yinyang:

A complete and total ban on all blowers is not the only way to go here, but it is clear from other city examples that just limiting gas powered blowers hour wise results in continuing an unhealthy status quo. If we ended up like Sonoma, which allows gas powered blowers six days a week from 9 to 4 pm, including parks with schools and playgrounds, we would end up continuing to pollute our air and disrupt the lives, and home businesses, of thousands of us.

Many of the people who have signed SPARE's petitions, myself included, could and would live and breathe a little easier with what we see as a middle ground solution to an absolute ban.

And, despite the concerns of a few City Council members that this will hurt the city's businesses, I feel it will be a good turn for business as well, as I explored in today's PD at

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...p=all&tc=pgall

Hello Jonathan,

Yes. I hope the city can locate a "middle ground". I really think it would help if they hired the type of experts I spoke about in an earlier thread. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" kind of mentality...

There's one topic that I cannot seem to get a response from anyone on this bulletin board, and I've been writing about it over and over again. That is, how will the ban on leaf blowers reason its way to the TOP, when other gas powered equipment that the city and residents operate cause similar dust and particulate matter to waft into the air, like wood chippers, lawn mowers, BBQ and fire-pits within the community parks???

It seems to me if we are to target leaf blowers, to the exclusion of wood chippers, etc., then this will certainly have opponents crying "foul".

When I spoke to a couple of environmental consultants last week, they told me that leaf blowers are not much, if any greater, a contender to the toxins, dust, noise, and particulate that are released into the air than from wood chippers, or other types of pollution emitted from gas powered equipment. He even cited good old "Mother Nature" as being the BIGGEST culprit in whipping up her WINDS and swirling around dust and toxins on any given day. And yet, we cannot ban Mother Nature or the Santa Ana winds.

I'm just struggling to understand how people "critically think" their way to their conclusions. I'm not disagreeing with the facts that dust, toxins and particulate exist and can be harmful. But for Pete's Sake! If this issue were taken to a REAL COURT with a judge and jury, this issue to ban leaf blowers would have a tough battle to prove its merit over other culprits.

Best,
Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

HERE'S SOME OF THE LINKS I COLLECTED LAST WEEK ALONG MY INFORMATION JOURNEY:

https://www.mnwoodturners.com/New_Me...ods_Chart.html

https://www.vwa.org.au/des_dangwd.htm

CCH-EXP, HRM-OSHA, 1409, HAZARD ALERTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...t7_v1e6YjpvoZQ

https://www.environmental-expert.com...idlocation=138

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/hurricane/debris.html


HERE'S A QUOTE (of many quotes) FROM ORINDA'S NEWSPAPER AND CONTROVERSY OVER LEAF BLOWERS:
It's just a quote, so please don't shoot the messenger:

Orinda *already* has a dB limit in place. Enforce that.

"If you don't want your neighbor to run a leaf blower, pay him a few dollars not to do it. I'm a lawyer, I'll even write the contract for you and you can go door to door to ask you neighbors to sign up. Get the QO people to donate, and bring a wad of $20s with you. If you want, we can even write it up as a restrictive covenant and you can ban your neighbor from using it in perpetuity.

But your comment about wood-chippers is exactly why I am opposed to this sort of creeping stepford utopianism. You don't want to ban wood-chippers *yet* but once you get rid of leaf blowers, you'll move on."


https://www.epa.gov/air/community/de...addl_info.html

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:

Jennifer, I appreciate the effort to find a middle ground here. I think our city will come to one pretty soon, which will make 98% or so of the people in Sebastopol happier with the situation than they are at this moment.

If I looked in my crystal ball, I would see this as likely to ban all gas powered leaf blowers, restrict city usage to special conditions like tennis courts and skateboard bowls and storm drains, prohibit toxic dust-blowing blowers on commercial hardscape surfaces while encouraging larger vacuum machines for parking lots, and allowing the private usage of electric powered blowers subject to day of week and hour restrictions. :yinyang:

A complete and total ban on all blowers is not the only way to go here, but it is clear from other city examples that just limiting gas powered blowers hour wise results in continuing an unhealthy status quo. If we ended up like Sonoma, which allows gas powered blowers six days a week from 9 to 4 pm, including parks with schools and playgrounds, we would end up continuing to pollute our air and disrupt the lives, and home businesses, of thousands of us.

Many of the people who have signed SPARE's petitions, myself included, could and would live and breathe a little easier with what we see as a middle ground solution to an absolute ban.

And, despite the concerns of a few City Council members that this will hurt the city's businesses, I feel it will be a good turn for business as well, as I explored in today's PD at

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...p=all&tc=pgall

---

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Sun Source Solar:

Hello Jonathan,
There's one topic that I cannot seem to get a response from anyone on this bulletin board, and I've been writing about it over and over again. That is, how will the ban on leaf blowers reason its way to the TOP, when other gas powered equipment that the city and residents operate cause similar dust and particulate matter to waft into the air, like wood chippers, lawn mowers, BBQ and fire-pits within the community parks???

It seems to me if we are to target leaf blowers, to the exclusion of wood chippers, etc., then this will certainly have opponents crying "foul".

When I spoke to a couple of environmental consultants last week, they told me that leaf blowers are not much, if any greater, a contender to the toxins, dust, noise, and particulate that are released into the air than from wood chippers, or other types of pollution emitted from gas powered equipment.

---

I have been ignoring this thread but it occurs to me that it is a parallel discussion to the topic I normally discuss, namely the elimination of wasting behaviors (Zero Waste), rather than the endless management of garbage (recycling and dumping).

I routinely lament the intellectual laziness of the public and the environmental community and this is no exception. What is the situation being faced here? Leaves are in the wrong place. What would I suggest? Figure out where you want them and what you want to have done with them (design, requiring thought) and then figure out how to get it done. Instead, what do we invariably see? Just push the leaves somewhere else, anywhere else, on anyone else (such as a public street) just to GET RID OF THEM. Absence of a plan is not a plan. That's why we have leaf blowers - because they push the problem somewhere else and no one cares where as long as they aren't HERE!

I am ignoring the gas engine pollution aspect for the moment and only thinking about the leaves.

This is exactly why we stumble on year after year, doing the laziest possible thing of designing goods for short, wasteful lives and then unthinkingly discard them into garbage cans where a rapacious, greedy corporation (Big Garbage) is happy to provide its faux service and help us to make all those goods over and over again, wasting huge gobs of resources unnecessarily as the factories hum and the ships wend their way from China.

The same with leaves. What makes more sense than willy nilly bans?

How about recognizing that leaves are a useful part of nature, needed for good composting so as to close the agricultural cycle? Instead of thinking of leaves as an irritation, what if each landscaper made use of the equivalent of a shop vacuum, maybe with a larger barrel of 30 to 60 gallons that had a long hose that could roam around a lawn in a large circle, collecting leaves into the drum so that they could later be taken to a composter for effective processing? Raking them could do the same thing on a small property.

Maybe there is a simple, cleverer way to collect the leaves. Maybe people will just have to accept rotting piles of leaves on every property, just like they should be accepting compost piles everywhere (so say I). I am only suggesting a first idea. But we have created this problem of too many leaves by insisting that we can force our way into forests and it is the forests that have to adapt. Are we going to get smart, and recognize the value of leaves (the ecological approach) or are we going to stamp our feet and insist that the blunt instrument of political coercion can be wielded as one more technofix which will in turn fail and be covered up by still another technofix (that's the history of technofixes).

Sebastopolitans love talking the ecological talk. Will they walk the walk when facing the messy demands of nature? Or will the leaf blower manufacturers be the ones to dictate the soon to be disposed of product that will solve all our problems?

Hello Sciguy,

Yes. I agree with what you say. I like the way you think about resolving problems. If you read in one of my previous threads, I cited several different solutions (with website links) to the leaf blower ban; one similar to what you suggest... "leaf vacuums". Here's a link to high capacity leaf vacuums.

https://littlewonder.com/lw-vac.asp

https://www.cyclonerake.com/index.htm

Features:

• Clears and collects LEAVES, stones, bottles, cans, debris and other material normally swept up by hand.
• Best reduction ratio - reduces debris better than the competition
• Nozzle height automatically adjusts - no need to stop the engine and change height settings to avoid 'scalping' and 'digging in' on rough terrain.

• Unique Debris Collection bag - dust direction system reduces clouding;
• Redirects dust away from operator; bag is easy to unload
• Less noise - advanced impeller design and welded steel housing for "smoother air flow"
• Saves valuable time and man-power resources
• The best debris vacuums available anywhere!

I only wish the City had researched these options first before their initial and preliminary decision to ban leaf blowers, and maybe they did and I'm completely REMISS. I know that everyone tries their best, so I'm not blaming the City for wanting to do what's right; it's just the way they went about it. Kind of "shoot first, ask questions later". Now they're catching all this heat from unhappy citizens, which is not easy for them either.

I hope the City will take a look at these options, and I wish them all the best in finding a solution(s) that will be a happy middle ground for all concerned. My respects. :waccosun:

Thanks for your commentary...

Best,
Jennifer @ Sun Source Solar

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Sciguy:

I have been ignoring this thread but it occurs to me that it is a parallel discussion to the topic I normally discuss, namely the elimination of wasting behaviors (Zero Waste), rather than the endless management of garbage (recycling and dumping).

I routinely lament the intellectual laziness of the public and the environmental community and this is no exception. What is the situation being faced here? Leaves are in the wrong place. What would I suggest? Figure out where you want them and what you want to have done with them (design, requiring thought) and then figure out how to get it done. Instead, what do we invariably see? Just push the leaves somewhere else, anywhere else, on anyone else (such as a public street) just to GET RID OF THEM. Absence of a plan is not a plan. That's why we have leaf blowers - because they push the problem somewhere else and no one cares where as long as they aren't HERE!

I am ignoring the gas engine pollution aspect for the moment and only thinking about the leaves.

This is exactly why we stumble on year after year, doing the laziest possible thing of designing goods for short, wasteful lives and then unthinkingly discard them into garbage cans where a rapacious, greedy corporation (Big Garbage) is happy to provide its faux service and help us to make all those goods over and over again, wasting huge gobs of resources unnecessarily as the factories hum and the ships wend their way from China.

The same with leaves. What makes more sense than willy nilly bans?

How about recognizing that leaves are a useful part of nature, needed for good composting so as to close the agricultural cycle? Instead of thinking of leaves as an irritation, what if each landscaper made use of the equivalent of a shop vacuum, maybe with a larger barrel of 30 to 60 gallons that had a long hose that could roam around a lawn in a large circle, collecting leaves into the drum so that they could later be taken to a composter for effective processing? Raking them could do the same thing on a small property.

Maybe there is a simple, cleverer way to collect the leaves. Maybe people will just have to accept rotting piles of leaves on every property, just like they should be accepting compost piles everywhere (so say I). I am only suggesting a first idea. But we have created this problem of too many leaves by insisting that we can force our way into forests and it is the forests that have to adapt. Are we going to get smart, and recognize the value of leaves (the ecological approach) or are we going to stamp our feet and insist that the blunt instrument of political coercion can be wielded as one more technofix which will in turn fail and be covered up by still another technofix (that's the history of technofixes).

Sebastopolitans love talking the ecological talk. Will they walk the walk when facing the messy demands of nature? Or will the leaf blower manufacturers be the ones to dictate the soon to be disposed of product that will solve all our problems?

---

Sun Source,

Thank you for finding this info. Is there a machine that could handle hardscapes like parking lots?

There is a leaf blower poll up on Sonoma Watch at PD. I encourage everyone to weigh in at

https://www.watchsonomacounty.com/20...#comment-51501

Another press update:
Jonathan recently had an op-ed published in the Sonoma West Times. It points out (in an organized, numbered fashion) how the uprising against leaf blower regulation parallels many other instances of proposed environmental change. Check it out:
https://sonomawest.com/articles/2011...2178972693.txt
You can also add your vote to the Watch Sonoma County poll:
https://www.watchsonomacounty.com/20...-leaf-blowers/
Happy April everyone!
PS: The Sebastopol Farmers' Market begins this Sunday!

Leaf sucker in Konya, Turkey.