If Americans Only Knew! (Palestinians and Jews)

Please phone or email the following information to your local news organizations: newspapers, radio stations, etc:

Bulletin on Suicide Bombing

Contact: If Americans Knew: 310.441.8580 / cell 415.847.1782

In the last two and a half weeks (since the previous suicide bombing) Israeli forces have killed at least 26 Palestinians -- at least 5 of them children -- and injured 161 Palestinian men, women and children. A college student lost her right eye today after being shot by an Israeli sniper last week.

There have been 369 raids by Israeli forces, mostly into the West Bank. Gaza has undergone sustained shelling by Israeli forces and continued closures, resulting in increasing lack of food and medical supplies. According to UN reports, between March 30 and April 12th, Israeli forces launched 2300 artillery and tank shells and 34 missiles into Gaza.

Since the current Palestinian uprising against Israeli military occupation and confiscation of Palestinian land began in fall 2000, approximately 3,863 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis and have been killed. Among these have been approximately 720 Palestinian children and 124 Israeli children.

Today, in separate actions, several Palestinian youths were shot, one in the neck. Israeli forces are continuing their ongoing invasions of Nablus and other West Bank cities.

Today is Palestinian Prisoners Day. 9,400 Palestinian men, women, and children are in prison. According to numerous human rights reports, Palestinian prisoners are frequently tortured. Defense for Children International reports that 4,000 Palestinian children have been arrested in the past five years, 400 of them currently in prison. They report that the arrests are increasing.

Additional Information from Defense for Children International:

According to DCI: "The process of arrest and detention of Palestinian children is a process of systematic abuse and mistreatment which flouts international legal standards and denies the basic human rights of detainees first as children and secondly as prisoners...[children are] handcuffed and blindfolded, humiliated and threatened and often beaten and kicked from the moment they are arrested up to and often throughout their interrogation and detention. They are deprived of sleep, food and access to the bathroom until so-called confessions are coerced out of them..."

At 5.30pm on Monday 10 April 2006, at least six artillery shells fired by the Israeli military fell on the family house of Mohammed Rabe'eya Ghaban in Beit Lahiya, in the north of the Gaza Strip. Shrapnel from the shells pierced the skull of Mohammed's eight-year old daughter Hadeel, killing her instantly. The shelling also resulted in the injury of eight other family members, including Hadeel's brothers and sisters:

Rawan Ghaban 1 and a half years old
Rana Ghaban 3 years old
Munir Ghaban 4 years old
Amneh Ghaban 9 years old
Ghassan Ghaban 11 years old
Bassam Ghaban 15 years old
Tahrir Ghaban 17 years old

The children's mother, 35-year old Sofia, was the eighth family member wounded in the attack.

Several neighbours were also injured including:

Jaqueline Mo'ein Maarouf 11 years old
Mariam Maher Al-'Assi 15 years old

For more information:

• https://www.imemc.org/
  

• https://www.ifamericansknew.org/
  

• https://www.nad-plo.org/main.php?view=pmg_daily-reports
  

• https://www.dci-pal.org/english/disp...4&CategoryId=1
  

• https://www.dci-pal.org/english/disp...3&CategoryId=1
  

• https://www.humanitarianinfo.org/opt/
  

Alison Weir
Executive Director
www.IfAmericansKnew.org <https://www.IfAmericansKnew.org>
310-441-8580

Well Allison dear, Some of us do know...

We know that as long as the so called "Palestinians" keep playing their political games of bombing innocents, using brainwashed children and women, that Israel will be forced to defend itself from invaders of it's borders.

We know that when you fire rockets from a residential area, into a residential area, people are going to get hurt, women, kids, dogs, cats, well just about anybody, except the male Palestinian who actually fired the rocket into the homes of innocent Israelis.

We know that the people who call themselves "Palestinians", actually have no genetic link to the peoples that inhabited Israel before the Hebrews moved in over 3,500 years ago (IE: Hittitites, Caananites, etc.). They are actually the people that Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq wanted to get rid of (The few real Plestinians moved out when given the chance back in 1948).

We know that Iran, Hamas, etc. supplies the weapons and training so that Israeli school children can be blown up.

In other words: We know the truth.

This coming from a transsexual woman who was injured in one such bombing. The object that left me with a permanent scar in my leg was a piece of an Israeli child's skull that your friends the PLO had blown up, along with a couple dozen other schoolchildren on Purim (A jewish children's holiday) about 13 years ago

The second bombing I was a close witness to, only left my clothes permanently stained by the vaporized remains of other Israeli children and their mothers. (I still have them, maybe you should wear them for a day).

It's not that I don't feel sorry for the Palestinians, it's just that I feel a lot less sorry for them then I do for the Jews. One would think that after WWII the World wouldn't stand for a single more Jew to be killed in hate crime, but I guess you're above all that...

No, I really don't want to hear any of your justification, because a decade later, I still can't forget what it was like, no matter how much I spend on counseling.

There is only one way to fight terrorists, and unfortunately it's not pretty, but neither can terrorists be allowed to be in control. And no, anarchy doesn't work.

So, if you have something to say, I invite you to spend a day wearing the clothes I wore that day in Israel, and then maybe I will listen to you.

However, I'll bet you won't have much to say thru all the tears...

thanks karen for the article and the links. i believe that more americans do know - more than knew just a year ago. the zionists are losing their strangle hold on american jewry and americans are finally growing tired of the zionist propaganda. that the killing 'is in our name' is becoming more apparent and distressing to people. things are moving.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen:

Please phone or email the following information to your local news organizations: newspapers, radio stations, etc:

Bulletin on Suicide Bombing

Contact: If Americans Knew: 310.441.8580 / cell 415.847.1782

In the last two and a half weeks (since the previous suicide bombing) Israeli forces have killed at least 26 Palestinians -- at least 5 of them children -- and injured 161 Palestinian men, women and children. A college student lost her right eye today after being shot by an Israeli sniper last week.

There have been 369 raids by Israeli forces, mostly into the West Bank. Gaza has undergone sustained shelling by Israeli forces and continued closures, resulting in increasing lack of food and medical supplies. According to UN reports, between March 30 and April 12th, Israeli forces launched 2300 artillery and tank shells and 34 missiles into Gaza.

Since the current Palestinian uprising against Israeli military occupation and confiscation of Palestinian land began in fall 2000, approximately 3,863 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis and have been killed. Among these have been approximately 720 Palestinian children and 124 Israeli children.

Today, in separate actions, several Palestinian youths were shot, one in the neck. Israeli forces are continuing their ongoing invasions of Nablus and other West Bank cities.

Today is Palestinian Prisoners Day. 9,400 Palestinian men, women, and children are in prison. According to numerous human rights reports, Palestinian prisoners are frequently tortured. Defense for Children International reports that 4,000 Palestinian children have been arrested in the past five years, 400 of them currently in prison. They report that the arrests are increasing.

Additional Information from Defense for Children International:

According to DCI: "The process of arrest and detention of Palestinian children is a process of systematic abuse and mistreatment which flouts international legal standards and denies the basic human rights of detainees first as children and secondly as prisoners...[children are] handcuffed and blindfolded, humiliated and threatened and often beaten and kicked from the moment they are arrested up to and often throughout their interrogation and detention. They are deprived of sleep, food and access to the bathroom until so-called confessions are coerced out of them..."

At 5.30pm on Monday 10 April 2006, at least six artillery shells fired by the Israeli military fell on the family house of Mohammed Rabe'eya Ghaban in Beit Lahiya, in the north of the Gaza Strip. Shrapnel from the shells pierced the skull of Mohammed's eight-year old daughter Hadeel, killing her instantly. The shelling also resulted in the injury of eight other family members, including Hadeel's brothers and sisters:

Rawan Ghaban 1 and a half years old
Rana Ghaban 3 years old
Munir Ghaban 4 years old
Amneh Ghaban 9 years old
Ghassan Ghaban 11 years old
Bassam Ghaban 15 years old
Tahrir Ghaban 17 years old

The children's mother, 35-year old Sofia, was the eighth family member wounded in the attack.

Several neighbours were also injured including:

Jaqueline Mo'ein Maarouf 11 years old
Mariam Maher Al-'Assi 15 years old

For more information:

• IMEMC News - International Middle East Media Center
  

• If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine
  

• :: Negotiations Affairs Department ::
  

• DCI/PS - DCI/PS call to action on Palestinian Prisoners' Day
  

• DCI/PS - Another innocent child dies in Israeli bombardment of Gaza
  

• HIC oPt website is being archived.
  

Alison Weir
Executive Director
www.IfAmericansKnew.org <https://www.IfAmericansKnew.org>
310-441-8580

---

pnicholson;

Have you no shame?

So in your warped thinking it's OK for your friends in Hamas/PLO etc. to kill innocent Israelis, because the Israelis react when attacked by terrorists?

Maybe you also should spend a day wearing my clothes splattered with the vaporized remains of Jewish Schoolchildren.

Funny how people defending their land are evil "Zionists", next you will be calling the terrorists "Freedom Fighters".

FYI: Jerusalem was founded, and built by Jews, not so-called "Palestinians". The Jews have had a claim on those lands for over 3500 years, and in fact have occupied them (if even only a few) continuously for that whole time period.

As I said, one would think that after WWII, the World wouldn't stand for a single Jew to be subject to terrorism and hate crimes, but you are apparently above all that. "It's all the evil Jew's fault", right?

"The nerve of them, wanting to be left alone in their ancestral lands, they're all a bunch of evil Zionists".

Well as an enemy of Israel you are in good company with other terrorists and their supporters: Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, pnicholson. Nice company of haters you and your friends...

You PLO sympathesizers turn my stomach, you are part of the problem, not the cure. You sit here in Sonoma, nice and safe, and make immoral judgements on something you haven't lived, based upon anti-Jewish propaganda.

So tell me, what does it feel like when the doctor removes a piece of a Jewish child's skull that slit open your leg? A child who was simply celebrating Purim, when some terrorist blew them up simply because they hate Jews.

Get your facts straight. Better yet, go live there for a while, and after you see your friends and their children get killed simply for being Jewish, maybe you'll pity the Jews.

As I said: It's sad that some poor "Palestinian" kids had to die because their menfolk like to shoot rockets and explode bombs in residential areas, but it's a lot more sad that people still think it's cool to kill innocent Jews.

Was 6 million not enough? (Number of Jews estimated to have been killed in pogroms and other hate crimes in the 200 years preceeding WWII) I guess that justified The Nazis and their 6 million more.

Nowhere in history have a people been so persecuted as the Jews, and yet liberals seem to find nothing wrong with that...

Absolutely disgusting... I'll bet you think Obama is the Messiah...

karen -

what a hateful response. even for a zionist troll. be careful of what you flow power to. and above all - be aware.

you can neither anger nor intimidate me. you have no power here.

peace,
pnicholson

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

pnicholson;

Have you no shame?

So in your warped thinking it's OK for your friends in Hamas/PLO etc. to kill innocent Israelis, because the Israelis react when attacked by terrorists?

Maybe you also should spend a day wearing my clothes splattered with the vaporized remains of Jewish Schoolchildren.

Funny how people defending their land are evil "Zionists", next you will be calling the terrorists "Freedom Fighters".

FYI: Jerusalem was founded, and built by Jews, not so-called "Palestinians". The Jews have had a claim on those lands for over 3500 years, and in fact have occupied them (if even only a few) continuously for that whole time period.

As I said, one would think that after WWII, the World wouldn't stand for a single Jew to be subject to terrorism and hate crimes, but you are apparently above all that. "It's all the evil Jew's fault", right?

"The nerve of them, wanting to be left alone in their ancestral lands, they're all a bunch of evil Zionists".

Well as an enemy of Israel you are in good company with other terrorists and their supporters: Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, pnicholson. Nice company of haters you and your friends...

You PLO sympathesizers turn my stomach, you are part of the problem, not the cure. You sit here in Sonoma, nice and safe, and make immoral judgements on something you haven't lived, based upon anti-Jewish propaganda.

So tell me, what does it feel like when the doctor removes a piece of a Jewish child's skull that slit open your leg? A child who was simply celebrating Purim, when some terrorist blew them up simply because they hate Jews.

Get your facts straight. Better yet, go live there for a while, and after you see your friends and their children get killed simply for being Jewish, maybe you'll pity the Jews.

As I said: It's sad that some poor "Palestinian" kids had to die because their menfolk like to shoot rockets and explode bombs in residential areas, but it's a lot more sad that people still think it's cool to kill innocent Jews.

Was 6 million not enough? (Number of Jews estimated to have been killed in pogroms and other hate crimes in the 200 years preceeding WWII) I guess that justified The Nazis and their 6 million more.

Nowhere in history have a people been so persecuted as the Jews, and yet liberals seem to find nothing wrong with that...

Absolutely disgusting... I'll bet you think Obama is the Messiah...

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Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by pnicholson:

karen -

what a hateful response. even for a zionist troll. be careful of what you flow power to. and above all - be aware.

you can neither anger nor intimidate me. you have no power here.

peace,
pnicholson

---

Let's see, I am attending a Purim celebration with my Jewish friends, your PLO friends blow up 37 (I think was the final count) children and their mothers, I wind up in the hospital for shrapnel wounds, and lo and behold the "shrapnel" they remove from my leg happens to be part of a child's skull. That makes me a "Zionist Troll"...

Great logic, tell me how long have you lived in Israel? How many suicide attacks have you lived thru?

Palestinian troll...

You missed your calling, you should have been n a concentration camp guard, you would have found many like minded people to support your sick thinking.

Like I said, after WWII, it would seem criminal to say the things you do, (It is is Germany) the fact that you can justify (well actually you haven't said anything except that you evidently hate Jews) the death of Jews simply because they want to live in their homeland in peace is something that you need therapy for.

I don't know where you get so much hate, but it's an unfounded hate, and therefore it is by definition, a sickness.

Do you have a therapist? I recommend you get one.

As for my "hate", well you have that wrong too, I'm just disgusted by such ignorance. I didn't think such people lived in Sonoma, but I'm proven wrong. It's amazing how people use the phrase "Anti-Zionist" as a cover for their hate of the Hebrews. It doesn't fool anybody, except maybe Jew haters.

I guess the Nazi party has members even in Sebastopol. Do you hate on gypsies, gays, blacks and the mentally ill too? (Guess that would be self hate).

There's simply nothing a sane person can say that justifies your anti-Jewish hate, and trying to hide it by calling it "Zionist" is utterly transparent.

The best cure for ignorance is education, so let me set forth some facts:

The peoples who call themselves "Palestinians" have no genetic claim to that label, they are nothing more than the trouble makers whom Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Iraq kicked out. The few true Palestinians living in Israel want nothing to do with them.

Any person living in Israel that is not Jewish, is an intruder for the simple reason that the Hebrews have owned this land for over 3500 years. The peoples that lived there before the advent of the Jews were the Canaanites, the Jebusites and the Hittites, these peoples were either wiped out or assimilated over 3500 years ago (Read your history) during the formation of Israel.

The modern State of Israel is actually considerably smaller than the lands the Jews have a legitimate claim upon. Jerusalem was founded and built by Jews, any body else that lives there is at best a guest.

These so-called "Palestinians" are homeless because everywhere they have gone, they have incited trouble. They have no legitimate claim upon any lands in the State of Israel. They have simply settled there because the Jews treat them much nicer then the treatment they get in the aforementioned countries of their origin.

Your "Palestinians" are thh trouble making vagabonds of the Mid East, when they tried this behavior on the neighboring countries from whence they came, they were simply killed in large numbers until they behaved. Therefore, they settled in a place where they were treated much better; Israel. They have no legitimate claim upon this land, and it's not Israel's job to house and feed them as they are definitely not jewish.

Your beloved Palestinians are like the homeless people that hate society, so they move into the nicest neighborhoods and start all kinds of trouble, playing off the goodwill of the the people and knowing that there are enough uneducated suckers out there that they can gain a little traction.

60 years later and World opinion is still against them, because their behavior sucks, and is transparent. They bomb innocent Jews, and when the Jews react, they push their own children out in front to be sacrificed. They strap bombs on their children and explode them, they have their children walk in front so they catch any fire, their menfolk are downright EVIL people, and that's why they have no home.

They are the people who bite the hand that feeds them, and there is no place for such people in society.

You are deceived.

Please get some help, either go live over there for a while, or go see a good therapist, because you are wasting your brain and your soul on something that is completely wrong and evil.

If retaliation killings brought peace, Israel would be one of the the most peaceful places on earth rather than a likely location for nuclear terrorism.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

pnicholson;

Have you no shame?

So in your warped thinking it's OK for your friends in Hamas/PLO etc. to kill innocent Israelis, because the Israelis react when attacked by terrorists?

Maybe you also should spend a day wearing my clothes splattered with the vaporized remains of Jewish Schoolchildren.

Funny how people defending their land are evil "Zionists", next you will be calling the terrorists "Freedom Fighters".

FYI: Jerusalem was founded, and built by Jews, not so-called "Palestinians". The Jews have had a claim on those lands for over 3500 years, and in fact have occupied them (if even only a few) continuously for that whole time period.

As I said, one would think that after WWII, the World wouldn't stand for a single Jew to be subject to terrorism and hate crimes, but you are apparently above all that. "It's all the evil Jew's fault", right?

"The nerve of them, wanting to be left alone in their ancestral lands, they're all a bunch of evil Zionists".

Well as an enemy of Israel you are in good company with other terrorists and their supporters: Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, pnicholson. Nice company of haters you and your friends...

You PLO sympathesizers turn my stomach, you are part of the problem, not the cure. You sit here in Sonoma, nice and safe, and make immoral judgements on something you haven't lived, based upon anti-Jewish propaganda.

So tell me, what does it feel like when the doctor removes a piece of a Jewish child's skull that slit open your leg? A child who was simply celebrating Purim, when some terrorist blew them up simply because they hate Jews.

Get your facts straight. Better yet, go live there for a while, and after you see your friends and their children get killed simply for being Jewish, maybe you'll pity the Jews.

As I said: It's sad that some poor "Palestinian" kids had to die because their menfolk like to shoot rockets and explode bombs in residential areas, but it's a lot more sad that people still think it's cool to kill innocent Jews.

Was 6 million not enough? (Number of Jews estimated to have been killed in pogroms and other hate crimes in the 200 years preceeding WWII) I guess that justified The Nazis and their 6 million more.

Nowhere in history have a people been so persecuted as the Jews, and yet liberals seem to find nothing wrong with that...

Absolutely disgusting... I'll bet you think Obama is the Messiah...

---

So tell me, do you own property in the United States? If so, you should immediately give it away to the Native Americans, or risk looking like a humongous hypocrite. After all, they lived here for thousands of years before we did, and have occupied (if only a few) these lands continuously since then. In fact, since you feel so strongly, you should probably encourage your friends to do the same.

Hate to break it to you, but there's a big difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. Nobody said anything about Jews being evil, or hating Jews, or sympathizing with terrorists. ALL terrorism is wrong, including Israeli terrorism. You seem to be implying that if anyone even mentions the Israeli government bombing civilians (which is terrorism too, by the way), they automatically hate all Jews and believe the Holocaust was justified! Sorry, but that's just insane. Bombing civilians is wrong no matter who does it. You also seem to be implying that the Israeli government is justified in bombing civilians (terrorism), because Palestinian terrorists did it first. Now who's sympathizing with terrorists? Two wrongs never make a right.

By the way, not everyone who disagrees with Israel's actions is a liberal.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by someguy:

So tell me, do you own property in the United States? If so, you should immediately give it away to the Native Americans, or risk looking like a humongous hypocrite. After all, they lived here for thousands of years before we did, and have occupied (if only a few) these lands continuously since then. In fact, since you feel so strongly, you should probably encourage your friends to do the same.

Hate to break it to you, but there's a big difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. Nobody said anything about Jews being evil, or hating Jews, or sympathizing with terrorists. ALL terrorism is wrong, including Israeli terrorism. You seem to be implying that if anyone even mentions the Israeli government bombing civilians (which is terrorism too, by the way), they automatically hate all Jews and believe the Holocaust was justified! Sorry, but that's just insane. Bombing civilians is wrong no matter who does it. You also seem to be implying that the Israeli government is justified in bombing civilians (terrorism), because Palestinian terrorists did it first. Now who's sympathizing with terrorists? Two wrongs never make a right.

By the way, not everyone who disagrees with Israel's actions is a liberal.

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A) My great grandmother was one of the last pure bred Chippewea

Additionally, even after the Diaspora the Jews remained the largest majority of landowners in Israel. Actually if I was fighting for the rights of the original land owners, this would be about the aforementioned Hittites and Canaanites wouldn't it. Much like one could tell La Raza to bug off because they have nothing to do with the native tribes that originally owned the Southwest.

However I'm going with the people who built and developed the land. In this case that would be the Jews and the USA. It certainly wouldn't be the vagabond arabs (self described as "Palestinians") from the countries surrounding Israel who have made nothing but enemies wherever they have gone. They are nothing more than squatters, they have no legitimate claim whatsoever on Israel, however they could make a good argument for land in the surrounding countries from whence they came.

Again, society has no place for those who repeatedly bite the hand that feeds them. These people are treated better in Israel than the countries from which they came, and yet they continue to terrorize in hopes somebody will buy their BS (Sebastopol seems to be fertile ground).

It's funny how the countries from which they came denounce Israel for treating these people far better than they did. "You can't stay here in your own country, or we will kill you, we decree that Israel must accept and provide for you.

Nobody even mentions the tax burden on Israel to support a people who contribute nothing, sort of like how we are supposed to support illegal Mexicans. In fact, there's the perfect analogy: "Palestinians are are the illegal aliens of Israel". They have no right to be there, they produce nothing, take everything, and terrorize their hosts. And when the Israelis act to defnd against their terrorist attacks, they hypocritically label any such action as "Terrorism"

Screw that "illegal Immigrants" BS, you're only an immigrant if you act as a citizen, otherwise you're a thief. They are illegal and unwanted aliens plain and simple (as per your comments on an earlier post whether in Israel or the USA



B) The IDF doesn't indiscriminately attack and terrorize the illegal aliens, they respond as best they can to the acts of terrorism perpetrated upon them. They are watched by several LEGITIMATE watchdog groups, and are quick to investigate and punish any impropriety (There being a big difference between legitimate watchdog groups and illegal alien propaganda BS groups)

Conversely, the illegal aliens specifically target women and children in their unjustified, and internationally condemned terrorist acts.

You simply can't compare the two, and expect to be considered rational...

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Debunker:

If retaliation killings brought peace, Israel would be one of the the most peaceful places on earth rather than a likely location for nuclear terrorism.

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You must not been awake when you composed this pearl of wisdom.

Are you awake now? OK Think about this.

If the Jews kissed the ass of every illegal alien and gave up their homes, food belonging and first born virgin daughters to them, they would still be the likely spot of nuclear terrorism, simply because ISLAM HATES JUDEA, oh and by the way, ISLAM HATES YOU AND I TOO, simply because we are no Muslim.

Do you know anything at all about Islam?

One could easily say that if appeasement worked, then Israel would be the safest place in the World, and it would be equally untrue.

Your logic is astounding.

You have debunked yourself...

Read the Koran when you wake up

The illegal aliens whom call themselves "Palestinians" are nothing more than the angry vagabonds of the Mid East whom Islam tries to use to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. The majority of the World's people see it for what it is.

Go live there for a while,

West County living will make any crazy idea seem perfectly logical. It appears that this is where the overeducated and under life-experienced come to talk in circles among themselves.

Please, prove me wrong and think before opening your mouth...

So what do you propose? Israelis have been killing Palestinians for decades, about 6 for every Israeli they kill. Doesn't seem to be working does it. What now?

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by toddwquigley:

You must not been awake when you composed this pearl of wisdom.

Are you awake now? OK Think about this.

If the Jews kissed the ass of every illegal alien and gave up their homes, food belonging and first born virgin daughters to them, they would still be the likely spot of nuclear terrorism, simply because ISLAM HATES JUDEA, oh and by the way, ISLAM HATES YOU AND I TOO, simply because we are no Muslim.

Do you know anything at all about Islam?

One could easily say that if appeasement worked, then Israel would be the safest place in the World, and it would be equally untrue.

Your logic is astounding.

You have debunked yourself...

Read the Koran when you wake up

The illegal aliens whom call themselves "Palestinians" are nothing more than the angry vagabonds of the Mid East whom Islam tries to use to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. The majority of the World's people see it for what it is.

Go live there for a while,

West County living will make any crazy idea seem perfectly logical. It appears that this is where the overeducated and under life-experienced come to talk in circles among themselves.

Please, prove me wrong and think before opening your mouth...

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Israelis..... don't ya just love 'em !!
Sorry, but animosity, and sarcasm, is all I have regarding Israelis these days.
They appear to be a delusional, self centered, self serving, people...far too slow to learn from their own past suffering (at the hands of the delusional, self centered, self serving, Germans who also thought themselves to be the superior race).
baba

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by pnicholson:

thanks karen for the article and the links. i believe that more americans do know - more than knew just a year ago. the zionists are losing their strangle hold on american jewry and americans are finally growing tired of the zionist propaganda. that the killing 'is in our name' is becoming more apparent and distressing to people. things are moving.

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I've moved this thread to the Censored category as it has become too heated.

I suggest all sides have committed great crimes.

All 3 great religious traditions claim the same real estate dating back to antiquity. They all preach love. Now it time to learn how to get along - there is no other answer.

I'm visiting family over the weekend. I'll chime in more if needed next week.

I suggest to anybody reading this to try to see the other sides point of view. All are terrorists (and we are the biggest one!) and all are victims. What's needed is to bring in love, acceptance and a growing trust from all directions.

Barry

[QUOTE=babaruss;112752]Israelis..... don't ya just love 'em !!

Let's see, trying to survive surrounded by your enemies makes you a delusional, self centered, self serving, people? I guess when a few hundred thousand vagabonds show up and demand land and food while terrorizing your population, that makes you this way

Delusional, yep, you sure are. Try 6 months in Tel Aviv.

Better yet, you won't have to leave home: How about we move the Armory and 6th st. Mission to your property and you can feed and house all the worst, most hateful of society, of the homeless, hey it's not so bad, at least they don't bomb your family. Maybe pee on your house, kick your dog, but hey, you're not a hypocrite...

You all make it too easy for me. Try some logic instead of misplaced emotions. Hit me with some facts.

Better yet read the bloody Koran. That'll end all the BS...

Next...

Good luck

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

I've moved this thread to the Censored category as it has become too heated.

I suggest all sides have committed great crimes.

All 3 great religious traditions claim the same real estate dating back to antiquity. They all preach love. Now it time to learn how to get along - there is no other answer.

I'm visiting family over the weekend. I'll chime in more if needed next week.

I suggest to anybody reading this to try to see the other sides point of view. All are terrorists (and we are the biggest one!) and all are victims. What's needed is to bring in love, acceptance and a growing trust from all directions.

Barry

---

Barry, two suggestions:

A) Read the Koran.

When you get to the part where it talks about how to deal with infidels, try to tell me how much they love everyone...

B) We are by far the most generous nation that has ever existed, so I'm interested to hear where you believe us to be such big terrorists.

Exactly where have we gone and acted not in a military manner, but in the direct act of purposely inciting terror against a country we are not at war with. (I'm actually also a British citizen, and there you might gain some traction) We may behave in a expedient and sometimes harsh manner, but purposely causing terror for it's own sake isn't part of our plan.

Please, I'd love to debate this, please give me some examples of where we have acted simply to cause terror for it's own sake. I think what you are referring to is just common and accepted means of warfare.

I know it sounds a trifle legalistic, but we are talking a big accusation here. You are saying that the USA is the World's biggest perpetrator of terror upon innocent civilians, and I'd like to know how you justify that. If that's not what you meant, then why did you say it thus?

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Debunker:

So what do you propose? Israelis have been killing Palestinians for decades, about 6 for every Israeli they kill. Doesn't seem to be working does it. What now?

---

Still not quite awake?

I said "IF", thus hypothetically, so exactly what were you saying about being psychotic (Do you know what psychotic really means, because your useage doesn't make sense. You might want to wiki that one.

I don't propose anything, there is no answer, it's all going tom end in a huge bloody war, and I can only pray that it's not Islam that wins.

Again, read the Koran, there's no infidels allowed in their World.

Therefore there can be no peace

6/1 is a pretty good ratio when facing terrorism with conventional forces. That's especially so when you consider that Israel could effectively napalm the lot of them, and nuke anybody that doesn't like it. The only people that would complain are Muslims and liberals...

Next...

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

Barry, two suggestions:

A) Read the Koran.

When you get to the part where it talks about how to deal with infidels, try to tell me how much they love everyone...

B) We are by far the most generous nation that has ever existed, so I'm interested to hear where you believe us to be such big terrorists.

Exactly where have we gone and acted not in a military manner, but in the direct act of purposely inciting terror against a country we are not at war with. (I'm actually also a British citizen, and there you might gain some traction) We may behave in a expedient and sometimes harsh manner, but purposely causing terror for it's own sake isn't part of our plan.

Please, I'd love to debate this, please give me some examples of where we have acted simply to cause terror for it's own sake. I think what you are referring to is just common and accepted means of warfare.

I know it sounds a trifle legalistic, but we are talking a big accusation here. You are saying that the USA is the World's biggest perpetrator of terror upon innocent civilians, and I'd like to know how you justify that. If that's not what you meant, then why did you say it thus?

---

Karen - One suggestion....

Read the bloody old testament. You'll find an assortment of bloody terrible acts committed by the Israelites there too.

But its not as though both the Koran and the Old Testament don't have their moments of love and peace.

So this is a bad argument to say that because the Koran has some nasty stuff in it, that it is all bad and evil, as the same could be said about your religious literature. Stop this silly argument.

This Argument is like blackberry bushes, there's some nice fruits but mostly stickers and it takes over everything. If you don't get the roots out you always have to deal with the problem.

The roots of this problem are found in History with Abraham, Isaac and Ismael.

If Conversation were to address things from this point then there can be progressive results

According to the laws of the day at that time Ismael was first born with full rights to Abraham's Heritage, there was a Violation when Isaac was made to be as the first born with all the monetary and cultural benefits of that position, Ismael was banished with a pittance.

Ismael became Islam.

Isaac became Judaism>Christianity

As if we were neighbors and you wronged me, would there ever be peace between us until you acknowledged and attempted to repair that wrong? Or would you preach the Virtues of Forgiveness as long as it was someone else who had to do it?

Good luck with your war, as you may have noticed, America's not interested.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

Still not quite awake?

I said "IF", thus hypothetically, so exactly what were you saying about being psychotic (Do you know what psychotic really means, because your useage doesn't make sense. You might want to wiki that one.

I don't propose anything, there is no answer, it's all going tom end in a huge bloody war, and I can only pray that it's not Islam that wins.

Again, read the Koran, there's no infidels allowed in their World.

Therefore there can be no peace

6/1 is a pretty good ratio when facing terrorism with conventional forces. That's especially so when you consider that Israel could effectively napalm the lot of them, and nuke anybody that doesn't like it. The only people that would complain are Muslims and liberals...

Next...

---

You've already given your prejudices away. Surrounded by vagabonds...wow the sheer humanity of your view of Palestinian people
just tugs at my heart.
Who is terrorizing who ?
Whose army targets women children.
Whose soldiers wear shits showing a pregnant woman in the cross hairs saying 'two to one bullet' ?
You actually sound like you believe the Israelis are housing and feeding Palestinians...a typical Israeli self centered inflated self view.
My house is full to capacity with homeless people.
I've learned to adjust my way of living to accommodate people who have needs rather than treat them like dirt.
Read your own holy books...read about how your God demanded the heads of children be smashed against rocks, demanded everyone was to be destroyed with only the virgins saved...guess God likes young stuff right ?
Don't dare try to go pious me...your history is vile, self serving, and straight up ugly...just like Christian history, just like Islam just like anyone who insanely thinks their way is the only way and are wiilling to kill to keep things that way.
Baba


[quote=Karen the KAT;112759]

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

Israelis..... don't ya just love 'em !!

Let's see, trying to survive surrounded by your enemies makes you a delusional, self centered, self serving, people? I guess when a few hundred thousand vagabonds show up and demand land and food while terrorizing your population, that makes you this way

Delusional, yep, you sure are. Try 6 months in Tel Aviv.

Better yet, you won't have to leave home: How about we move the Armory and 6th st. Mission to your property and you can feed and house all the worst, most hateful of society, of the homeless, hey it's not so bad, at least they don't bomb your family. Maybe pee on your house, kick your dog, but hey, you're not a hypocrite...

You all make it too easy for me. Try some logic instead of misplaced emotions. Hit me with some facts.

Better yet read the bloody Koran. That'll end all the BS...

Next...

Good luck

---

baba -

by the time the koran was written most of the known world was already on to the judaists. they understood that the judaists were dead-set on dominating the entire world and relieving the planet of all non-judaists. that is what they were explicitly ordered to do by their man-made god, jehovah. devastation was their law. if they did not obey that law the consequences were dire.

a very well-written and most informative tome on the subject is douglas reed's the controversy of zion. it covers the entire history of judaism up to modern times. it is easy to read - not at all dry. i also recommend the books or videos of norman finkelstein. there are many online. finkelstein is probably the most astute, well-researched, and scholarly speaker and writer on israel/palestine. it is a genuine pleasure to attend one of his lectures - even if only online. he deals with facts. that works for me. here is a link to a good start with finkelstein: Norman Finkelstein - The Coming Breakup of American Zionism, Part 1

the whole world is watching genocide being committed against the palestinians by the israelis. the usa is footing the bill for the bullets and depleted uranium. it is not the first time, certainly, that either nation has engaged in such heinous crimes but it is happening now. and if we do not deal with what is at hand, i believe that we are all more or less doomed. strong words, i know, but i fear we are running out of time. just like the palestinians.

thank you for listening and kind regards.

[quote=babaruss;112790]You've already given your prejudices away. Surrounded by vagabonds...wow the sheer humanity of your view of Palestinian people
just tugs at my heart.
Who is terrorizing who ?
Whose army targets women children.
Whose soldiers wear shits showing a pregnant woman in the cross hairs saying 'two to one bullet' ?
You actually sound like you believe the Israelis are housing and feeding Palestinians...a typical Israeli self centered inflated self view.
My house is full to capacity with homeless people.
I've learned to adjust my way of living to accommodate people who have needs rather than treat them like dirt.
Read your own holy books...read about how your God demanded the heads of children be smashed against rocks, demanded everyone was to be destroyed with only the virgins saved...guess God likes young stuff right ?
Don't dare try to go pious me...your history is vile, self serving, and straight up ugly...just like Christian history, just like Islam just like anyone who insanely thinks their way is the only way and are wiilling to kill to keep things that way.
Baba

I try to steer away from the 'world domination' talk, not that I don't believe it to be reality so much as there is a huge amount of flak which follows such discussion. Pandora's box seems to open when that subject is broached, and all sorts of creepy stuff comes flying out.
I do know that Mohamed allowed all beliefs to exist under his rule. He tossed the Jews out for mocking Islam, for destroying, and defiling Mosques. But as the tale goes...they were persecuted....and did no wrong. Now this act wasn't something that only the Jews did ...hey, the good Christians ran around destroying temples, knocking penis of statues...exhibiting all manner of rude, self centered, behavior insisting their religion was the only true religion.
I will go to the site to see what Mr. Finklestein has to say.
Thank you
Baba

[quote=pnicholson;112800]baba -

by the time the koran was written most of the known world was already on to the judaists. they understood that the judaists were dead-set on dominating the entire world and relieving the planet of all non-judaists. that is what they were explicitly ordered to do by their man-made god, jehovah. devastation was their law. if they did not obey that law the consequences were dire.

a very well-written and most informative tome on the subject is douglas reed's the controversy of zion. it covers the entire history of judaism up to modern times. it is easy to read - not at all dry. i also recommend the books or videos of norman finkelstein. there are many online. finkelstein is probably the most astute, well-researched, and scholarly speaker and writer on israel/palestine. it is a genuine pleasure to attend one of his lectures - even if only online. he deals with facts. that works for me. here is a link to a good start with finkelstein: Norman Finkelstein - The Coming Breakup of American Zionism, Part 1

the whole world is watching genocide being committed against the palestinians by the israelis. the usa is footing the bill for the bullets and depleted uranium. it is not the first time, certainly, that either nation has engaged in such heinous crimes but it is happening now. and if we do not deal with what is at hand, i believe that we are all more or less doomed. strong words, i know, but i fear we are running out of time. just like the palestinians.

thank you for listening and kind regards.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

You've already given your prejudices away. Surrounded by vagabonds...wow the sheer humanity of your view of Palestinian people
just tugs at my heart.
Who is terrorizing who ?
Whose army targets women children.
Whose soldiers wear shits showing a pregnant woman in the cross hairs saying 'two to one bullet' ?
You actually sound like you believe the Israelis are housing and feeding Palestinians...a typical Israeli self centered inflated self view.
My house is full to capacity with homeless people.
I've learned to adjust my way of living to accommodate people who have needs rather than treat them like dirt.
Read your own holy books...read about how your God demanded the heads of children be smashed against rocks, demanded everyone was to be destroyed with only the virgins saved...guess God likes young stuff right ?
Don't dare try to go pious me...your history is vile, self serving, and straight up ugly...just like Christian history, just like Islam just like anyone who insanely thinks their way is the only way and are wiilling to kill to keep things that way.
Baba

---

i appreciate your honest response, baba. thank you. and thank you for checking out prof finkelstein. hope you enjoy his talks as much as i do.

i am afraid that pandora's box has already been opened, baba. it is now for us to deal with sorting through the spewings. an unpleasant task to be sure, but...

i am not a big fan of the christians either. but they are not at this moment engaged in apartheid in gaza. i think it is important to stay focused on the matter at hand. distraction and propaganda abound. .

freedom begets freedom and truth begets truth. perhaps in our not allowing the palestinians to be made an extinct people, we will find our own freedom.

hold on to the truth.

not only is another world possible, she is already on her way. on a quiet day i can hear her breathing ~arundhati roy~



[quote=babaruss;112801]I try to steer away from the 'world domination' talk, not that I don't believe it to be reality so much as there is a huge amount of flak which follows such discussion. Pandora's box seems to open when that subject is broached, and all sorts of creepy stuff comes flying out.
I do know that Mohamed allowed all beliefs to exist under his rule. He tossed the Jews out for mocking Islam, for destroying, and defiling Mosques. But as the tale goes...they were persecuted....and did no wrong. Now this act wasn't something that only the Jews did ...hey, the good Christians ran around destroying temples, knocking penis of statues...exhibiting all manner of rude, self centered, behavior insisting their religion was the only true religion.
I will go to the site to see what Mr. Finklestein has to say.
Thank you
Baba

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by pnicholson:

baba -

by the time the koran was written most of the known world was already on to the judaists. they understood that the judaists were dead-set on dominating the entire world and relieving the planet of all non-judaists. that is what they were explicitly ordered to do by their man-made god, jehovah. devastation was their law. if they did not obey that law the consequences were dire.

a very well-written and most informative tome on the subject is douglas reed's the controversy of zion. it covers the entire history of judaism up to modern times. it is easy to read - not at all dry. i also recommend the books or videos of norman finkelstein. there are many online. finkelstein is probably the most astute, well-researched, and scholarly speaker and writer on israel/palestine. it is a genuine pleasure to attend one of his lectures - even if only online. he deals with facts. that works for me. here is a link to a good start with finkelstein: Norman Finkelstein - The Coming Breakup of American Zionism, Part 1

the whole world is watching genocide being committed against the palestinians by the israelis. the usa is footing the bill for the bullets and depleted uranium. it is not the first time, certainly, that either nation has engaged in such heinous crimes but it is happening now. and if we do not deal with what is at hand, i believe that we are all more or less doomed. strong words, i know, but i fear we are running out of time. just like the palestinians.

thank you for listening and kind regards.

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Thad:

This Argument is like blackberry bushes, there's some nice fruits but mostly stickers and it takes over everything. If you don't get the roots out you always have to deal with the problem.

The roots of this problem are found in History with Abraham, Isaac and Ismael.

If Conversation were to address things from this point then there can be progressive results

According to the laws of the day at that time Ismael was first born with full rights to Abraham's Heritage, there was a Violation when Isaac was made to be as the first born with all the monetary and cultural benefits of that position, Ismael was banished with a pittance.

Ismael became Islam.

Isaac became Judaism>Christianity

As if we were neighbors and you wronged me, would there ever be peace between us until you acknowledged and attempted to repair that wrong? Or would you preach the Virtues of Forgiveness as long as it was someone else who had to do it?

---

OK, wanna go back to Abraham. If you believe this then you're also advocating that GOD told ABRAHAM that Isaac was to be the one considered his first child. Well actually since Ishmael was only the child of a concubine, he would not have inherited anything anyway. So lets remember that it was Sarah who instigated this in the first place.

Lets add that up:

Never had an inheritance anyway
Never was recognized as a son
GOD said so too

Hmm, seems like Ishmael doesn't have anything coming from the tribe of Abraham. If you want to take it further, we can see that God definitely favored Isaac when he stayed Abraham's hand from sacrificing him.

When the whole story is taken into account instead of just the parts that support your hypothesis, your argument is without merit except as a case of sour grapes.

NEXT...

To all of you who deem yourselves experts on something because you have read about it.

How many of you have actually lived over there? Raise your hands and step forward. The rest, well you can keep believing pro-Palestinian propaganda like Finklestein.

READ THE KORAN Folks, Mohammed distinctly says it is better to send an unbeliever to paradise than to let them live in sin.

Yes, this means you, get a clue...

As long as you keep making up facts, I'll keep shooting them down.

FYI: I'm not Jewish, I just lived there for a while and saw all the hate, 90% of it was coming from the Palestinians.

I'm broke because I give away too much to the poor and homeless, so don't even waste your breath.

Many of the things you guys quote here are not real, they are imaginary things that happened only in some PLO media persons head, or at best, isolated incidences.

One person even went so far as to say "Who's military targets women and children". Let me tell you from first hand experience (I already have), it's the PLO (Call them Hamas or whatever you will, same people, same goal.

Why can't the countries of these people's origin take care of them? They are not people who came from Palestine. Here's the kicker: The real Palestinians don't want anything to do with them because these illegals give them a bad name and cause strife.

Get a clue folks.

It's simply about Islam trying to permanently stamp out Judea. The whole weight of Islam against a few million jews.. Think about that folks. were talking an advantage of almost 100 to 1.

Gee, no wonder you see so much pro-Palestinian crap. And you know what, all that, and the World still doesn't buy their BS. Well except for the geniuses in Sonoma County who read a lot, but are lacking in actual experience with the subject.

Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness...

I'm not saying the Israelis are saints, but when you compare their behavior against how Islam has treated them, they look rather saintly in contrast.

Big fucking deal...you spent a few months in Israel...this makes you an expert ?
Your arrogance is sickening.
You are trying to make yourself an expert here...a frigging wanna be Jew no less !!
Next !!!
Baba

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

To all of you who deem yourselves experts on something because you have read about it.

How many of you have actually lived over there? Raise your hands and step forward. The rest, well you can keep believing pro-Palestinian propaganda like Finklestein.

READ THE KORAN Folks, Mohammed distinctly says it is better to send an unbeliever to paradise than to let them live in sin.

Yes, this means you, get a clue...

As long as you keep making up facts, I'll keep shooting them down.

FYI: I'm not Jewish, I just lived there for a while and saw all the hate, 90% of it was coming from the Palestinians.

I'm broke because I give away too much to the poor and homeless, so don't even waste your breath.

Many of the things you guys quote here are not real, they are imaginary things that happened only in some PLO media persons head, or at best, isolated incidences.

One person even went so far as to say "Who's military targets women and children". Let me tell you from first hand experience (I already have), it's the PLO (Call them Hamas or whatever you will, same people, same goal.

Why can't the countries of these people's origin take care of them? They are not people who came from Palestine. Here's the kicker: The real Palestinians don't want anything to do with them because these illegals give them a bad name and cause strife.

Get a clue folks.

It's simply about Islam trying to permanently stamp out Judea. The whole weight of Islam against a few million jews.. Think about that folks. were talking an advantage of almost 100 to 1.

Gee, no wonder you see so much pro-Palestinian crap. And you know what, all that, and the World still doesn't buy their BS. Well except for the geniuses in Sonoma County who read a lot, but are lacking in actual experience with the subject.

Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness...

I'm not saying the Israelis are saints, but when you compare their behavior against how Islam has treated them, they look rather saintly in contrast.

---

My Jewish friend who lived for years in Israel completely disagrees with you, not that living there makes either of you an expert on anything.

Israelis span the entire spectrum of politics, education, intelligence and emotional maturity, just like any population.

Here's a recent poll of American Jews you might find interesting.
Poll: Jews Support Obama Despite Tensions With Israel Matzav.com - The Online Voice of Torah Jewry

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

To all of you who deem yourselves experts on something because you have read about it.

How many of you have actually lived over there? Raise your hands and step forward. The rest, well you can keep believing pro-Palestinian propaganda like Finklestein.

READ THE KORAN Folks, Mohammed distinctly says it is better to send an unbeliever to paradise than to let them live in sin.

Yes, this means you, get a clue...

As long as you keep making up facts, I'll keep shooting them down.

FYI: I'm not Jewish, I just lived there for a while and saw all the hate, 90% of it was coming from the Palestinians.

I'm broke because I give away too much to the poor and homeless, so don't even waste your breath.

Many of the things you guys quote here are not real, they are imaginary things that happened only in some PLO media persons head, or at best, isolated incidences.

One person even went so far as to say "Who's military targets women and children". Let me tell you from first hand experience (I already have), it's the PLO (Call them Hamas or whatever you will, same people, same goal.

Why can't the countries of these people's origin take care of them? They are not people who came from Palestine. Here's the kicker: The real Palestinians don't want anything to do with them because these illegals give them a bad name and cause strife.

Get a clue folks.

It's simply about Islam trying to permanently stamp out Judea. The whole weight of Islam against a few million jews.. Think about that folks. were talking an advantage of almost 100 to 1.

Gee, no wonder you see so much pro-Palestinian crap. And you know what, all that, and the World still doesn't buy their BS. Well except for the geniuses in Sonoma County who read a lot, but are lacking in actual experience with the subject.

Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness...

I'm not saying the Israelis are saints, but when you compare their behavior against how Islam has treated them, they look rather saintly in contrast.

---

You are right, Prof Finklestein does simplify the whole Palestine/Israeli problem. I'm always appreciative of the truth being brought clearly into focus instead of all the b.s. (about how complicated that peace process is). I watched part one and will go back for part two later.
There was never a day when I believed the Israelis had even the tiniest bit of a desire to get along with their neighbors...let alone give back the land they stole.
I sometimes jump into these frays (even start them) here on WaccoB.B. just to see what comes from it.
My score today was Prof Finklestein (and your thoughts on the matter).
The 'know it all' venom spewers on the list are predictable, and therefore not the least bit disturbing.
Baba


[quote=pnicholson;112802]i appreciate your honest response, baba. thank you. and thank you for checking out Prof Finkelstein. hope you enjoy his talks as much as i do.

i am afraid that pandora's box has already been opened, baba. it is now for us to deal with sorting through the spewings. an unpleasant task to be sure, but...

i am not a big fan of the christians either. but they are not at this moment engaged in apartheid in gaza. i think it is important to stay focused on the matter at hand. distraction and propaganda abound. .

freedom begets freedom and truth begets truth. perhaps in our not allowing the palestinians to be made an extinct people, we will find our own freedom.

hold on to the truth.

not only is another world possible, she is already on her way. on a quiet day i can hear her breathing ~arundhati roy~

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

I try to steer away from the 'world domination' talk, not that I don't believe it to be reality so much as there is a huge amount of flak which follows such discussion. Pandora's box seems to open when that subject is broached, and all sorts of creepy stuff comes flying out.
I do know that Mohamed allowed all beliefs to exist under his rule. He tossed the Jews out for mocking Islam, for destroying, and defiling Mosques. But as the tale goes...they were persecuted....and did no wrong. Now this act wasn't something that only the Jews did ...hey, the good Christians ran around destroying temples, knocking penis of statues...exhibiting all manner of rude, self centered, behavior insisting their religion was the only true religion.
I will go to the site to see what Mr. Finklestein has to say.
Thank you
Baba

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

Big fucking deal...you spent a few months in Israel...this makes you an expert ?
Your arrogance is sickening.
You are trying to make yourself an expert here...a frigging wanna be Jew no less !!
Next !!!
Baba

---

Almost 3 years actually..

You have zero personal experience on the scene.

I'd say that's quite a bit more than anybody I see running their mouths here...

No, not a wanna be, just not a PLO wanna be...

Do you understand that it's a simple matter of survival for the Jews? take away the Palestinian issue, and Islam would still be terrorizing Judea.

Hamas said just this...

It's not something that will go away if the Jews suddenly took in all the indigenent peoples kicked out of their own countries whom call themselves "Palestinians"..

This seems to be a stumbling block in your thinking (and many others). Get it into your mind: Islam has no place for anyone who isn't Muslim. Period... Not you, not me, and especially not the Jews

Next you'll be telling me what a wonderful peaceful religion it is.

They don't want peace, they want World domination, it says so in the Koran.

For the umpteenth time: Read the Bloody Koran... (and bloody it is)

I can tell you haven't, because you keep talking nonsense about the situation.

And for whomever was talking about the Jews wanting World domination, what a joke, this is the people who first allowed Christianity, the same people who still allow Muslims and Christians to practice their faith in Jerusalem of all places (and don't think they don't have the power to shut down the Temple Mount at their whim).

Your thinking flies in the face of common facts.

Your every post is getting angrier and angrier, and further out from the issues. Proof positive it's all about misguided emotions and not facts. You PLO wanna-bes are really a bunch of rubes. I understand wanting peace justice and happiness, but it's simply not realistic, because there are too many Muslims who are willing to die in order to see that there is no peace.

How many times has Israel tried to talk peace only to be met with another bombing. This should be a pretty obvious message, but apparently you're not getting it. Thank God you're the minority...

"We know that the people who call themselves "Palestinians", actually have no genetic link to the peoples that inhabited Israel before the Hebrews moved in over 3,500 years ago (IE: Hittitites, Caananites, etc.). They are actually the people that Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq wanted to get rid of (The few real Plestinians moved out when given the chance back in 1948)."

Look, I've kept my keyboard shut for the last couple of days on this thread because, what's the point, sometimes peoples blatant racism and bias speaks for them. But I can't let this pass. This view is a lie, a blatant racist lie. Anyone who has followed the history and politics of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict knows this. The only people who spout it are either: deluded partisans, or, conscious liars who are engaging in a propaganda campaign to vilify the Palestinian Arab people (who are Christians, Muslims, Druze, Secular and other religious ethnic identities).

Barry started a conversation by saying all parties are both terrorists and victims. But that's just a beginning. A phrase like, "The few real Palestinians moved out when given the chance back in 1948" elides so much of the truth as to be an expression of evil. And I do not use the word, evil, lightly. "given the chance"!!!!???

This isn't the place to revisit the entire history of what Europeans called "Palestine". A start would be to look at the history for say, the last one hundred and fifty years, with references to the history of the Jews, Arab Muslims, European colonialists, the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, the Jewish Empire, etc. for the last five thousand years. Only then will one begin to understand modern events.

There are plenty of books published in Israel, by Israelis, which are factual and even handed on these matters. And like anywhere there are plenty of books with completely biased, false information designed to justify the unjustifiable, also published in Israel, and Damascus, and here in the U.S., Europe, etc.

But racist calumny is what it is. And when someone spouts it in my presence, I'm going to call them on it.

My commitment to anti-racism is part of my oldest political thought and action. I've made a few mistakes in fighting against racism, most recently innapropriate examples used in class while substituting at San Quentin. Examples which were too provocative and inflamatory and which got in the way of what I was trying to accomplish. But I meant well, and overall I've had a pretty good track record.

I will not sit by while someone lies about and slanders an entire national population, in order to justify their ethnic cleansing. These arguments for the expulsion of Palestinians from their generational homes, or the complete denial that it ever happened, must be debunked. Otherwise we are accomplices in these crimes.

And yes, some of the ways the oppressed fight back, make them oppressors themselves. Note the death of three bank employees in Athens a couple of days ago. Not what the Black Block should be perpetrating, on anyone, anytime.

I support the right of Jews to a state in their ancestral homeland. I support the right of Palestinians to a state in their ancestral homeland. But they are both the ones that have to make that happen. They're obviously not doing a very good job of it. And "we" (citizens of the U.S.A.) are not doing what we should do to help them.

When in a conflict the preponderance of power is one-sided, what the weaker side does to try and hold its own, has to be understood. Not justified. Not excused. But explained and understood. And that goes for the actions of the preponderantly powerful side as well. This is not easy, but it's a beginning.

The kind of dangerous, vile nonsense that I'm responding to here, does nothing but intensify the conflict. In this case it might be irrelevant, given the bad blood and intensity of the fight for now over four generations (a conservative number, I know, I'm figuring since 1948, obviously it goes back long before that).

On the one side you have a significant number who dismiss, demonize and deny the Other. On the other side, you have the same.

I'll never forget the Palestinian mother in Chicago who, after the first Intifada in the early nineties insisted to me that all Jews were Zionists, all Zionists were murdering racists, and thereby all Israeli Jews deserved death. There was nothing I was going to be able to say, given her life experiences, that was going to sway her opinion.

Then there was my friend Adam, during the same approximate period, who vehemently insisted that all Palestinians were terrorist child murdering wanna be suicide bombers, who all deserved to die as soon as possible.

He didn't claim that the Nakba never happened. He just thought it was the right thing to do.... I never bothered arguing with him. There was no point, his mind was firmly made up.

Whatever ones opinion, there are known facts. The first link I provided above does a good job of summarizing them. I found it after a very quick google.

The trouble is, of course, in the interpretation of those facts. But some extreme interpretations are so far from any semblance of fact, as to not be worth serious consideration.

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Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

Big fucking deal...you spent a few months in Israel...this makes you an expert ?
Your arrogance is sickening.
You are trying to make yourself an expert here...a frigging wanna be Jew no less !!
Next !!!
Baba

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By the way, name calling is a sign of a person who is losing a discussion, and almost all of you have reverted to name calling and personal character assignations.

I have simply implied you all are not thinking clearly (Your emotions show it) and you need to get more educated about Islam...

Go figure...

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For more information:

• IMEMC News - International Middle East Media Center
  

• If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine
  

• :: Negotiations Affairs Department ::
  

• DCI/PS - DCI/PS call to action on Palestinian Prisoners' Day
  

• DCI/PS - Another innocent child dies in Israeli bombardment of Gaza
  

• HIC oPt website is being archived.
  

Alison Weir
Executive Director
If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine <https://www.IfAmericansKnew.org>
310-441-8580

---

NOTE: Every source listed here is an anti Israeli ORG, not one legitimate news source. You even include a link to the PLO site!!!!!

Amazing, and this constitutes fact??? Wow.... I'm stunned by the ignorance and closed mindedness...

I stand in utter amazement!
Minor point of fact, EVERY single tribe on earth calls themselves names like, "chosen" and "human beings" or "exalted ones" while castigating the other tribe as "barbarians" etc.
I would imagine in your world Jews are the only ones that do that and with your thinking you probably think all who have a POV other than yours is......blah, blah, blah.
What scares me is that your doppleganger is Jewish and thinks he is all that and a bag of chips. You two ought never to met, and with your beliefs you never will. Dang, I would pay real money to see that caged match!
PS: I enjoy your Nietzsche use of punctuation and the lack of capitals. You keep on keeping on and you'll wind up the same place as he: talking on a telephone to God, before it was even invented!, oh, in a nut house. I've seen your types before and that is where they end up.
PPS: But you do have a strange point I've never understood: what's with the Jews? especially in light of Europeans! Dang they hate Semites! And the funny thing is that the Muslims bugging Europe now don't seem to know or care about what happened to their cousins during the 40's.

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Posted in reply to the post by pnicholson:

baba -
by the time the koran was written most of the known world was already on to the judaists. they understood that the judaists were dead-set on dominating the entire world and relieving the planet of all non-judaists. that is what they were explicitly ordered to do by their man-made god, jehovah. devastation was their law. if they did not obey that law the consequences were dire.

a very well-written and most informative tome on the subject is douglas reed's the controversy of zion. it covers the entire history of judaism up to modern times. it is easy to read - not at all dry. i also recommend the books or videos of norman finkelstein. there are many online. finkelstein is probably the most astute, well-researched, and scholarly speaker and writer on israel/palestine. it is a genuine pleasure to attend one of his lectures - even if only online. he deals with facts. that works for me. here is a link to a good start with finkelstein: Norman Finkelstein - The Coming Breakup of American Zionism, Part 1

the whole world is watching genocide being committed against the palestinians by the israelis. the usa is footing the bill for the bullets and depleted uranium. it is not the first time, certainly, that either nation has engaged in such heinous crimes but it is happening now. and if we do not deal with what is at hand, i believe that we are all more or less doomed. strong words, i know, but i fear we are running out of time. just like the palestinians.

thank you for listening and kind regards.

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Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

You've already given your prejudices away. Surrounded by vagabonds...wow the sheer humanity of your view of Palestinian people
just tugs at my heart.
Who is terrorizing who ?
Whose army targets women children.
Whose soldiers wear shits showing a pregnant woman in the cross hairs saying 'two to one bullet' ?
You actually sound like you believe the Israelis are housing and feeding Palestinians...a typical Israeli self centered inflated self view.
My house is full to capacity with homeless people.
I've learned to adjust my way of living to accommodate people who have needs rather than treat them like dirt.
Read your own holy books...read about how your God demanded the heads of children be smashed against rocks, demanded everyone was to be destroyed with only the virgins saved...guess God likes young stuff right ?
Don't dare try to go pious me...your history is vile, self serving, and straight up ugly...just like Christian history, just like Islam just like anyone who insanely thinks their way is the only way and are wiilling to kill to keep things that way.
Baba

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Miles, I have out of necessity generalized here, IF you know the situation as well as you claim, then you know that the majority of those who call themselves Palestinians, are in fact nothing of the sort.

Furthermore, I'm referring to specifically the Islamic faction, because as you apparently know, lo and behold, the other factions try to distance themselves as far as possible from these peoples. The people of true Palestinian descent don't for the most part, all themselves Palestinians, they use titles such as Israeli Arabs, etc.

I'm talking specifically about the Islamic "Palestinians", the vast majority of which came from other lands. They also unfortunately make up the vast majority of those peoples whom the World knows as "Palestinians".

Blame Arafat, the issue was a much smaller issue until he sent out the call for the "Dispossessed of Palestine" and got thousands of angry Muslims with no historical link to Palestine. If you know your history as you say you do, then you also well know that until the formation of the PLO by Yassir, that the peoples of Palestine; Jew and Arab alike, got along reasonably well. The trouble started when Yassir suddenly swelled the Palestinian population with the dispossessed, the dispossessed of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq.

To address your comment about 1948, many peoples who didn't want to stick around and find out what living under Jewish law might be like (From a Western mind, IE: One without the cloud of Jew vs, Muslim, living in Israel is much preferable to living in most of the countries listed above. Sandra Mackey makes this point, along with many of those I have enumerated above in her seminal book on the Mid-East: "Passion for Politics", which I'm sure you have read (As it's pretty much considered the de facto objective overview of the Mid-East).

I'm not saying the IDF is a bunch of saints, but compared to the actions of the so-called "Palestinians", they are much better behaved.

Miles, if you want to have meaningful discussion on the subject, I'm all for it.

However, for the rest of you, I'll pass until you at least have read the Koran, and are willing to see the Muslims as the less than peaceful people that they are, because until then you are missing the biggest part of the equation.

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

By the way, name calling is a sign of a person who is losing a discussion, and almost all of you have reverted to name calling and personal character assignations.

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I often see this assertion, but I don't see any correlation between name calling and "losing a discussion". Some people are just plain obnoxious, and elicit name calling all on their own.

For instance, earlier you spewed, "Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness."

Shall we assume you've lost the discussion?

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Posted in reply to the post by Debunker:

I often see this assertion, but I don't see any correlation between name calling and "losing a discussion". Some people are just plain obnoxious, and elicit name calling all on their own.

For instance, earlier you spewed "Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness"

Shall we assume you've lost the discussion?

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How many times must I point out what my words are and say.

My God, you take everything I say out of context, that is IF you even read it all.

I'm done with you, you have debunked yourself for the last time. (Now I'm going to label you in the context of a quote) : "When one argues with a fool, it becomes hard to tell them apart"...

I've read the Koran, all the Jewish religious, and 'historical' books.
I've read 5 versions of the Bible...along with untold other such books from other cultures. BFD. all means is I can read...it is no indicator whatsoever that I have an open mind...and yours my dear is sealed tightly shut.
I often fish here to catch the rabid rat fish that lurk about spewing venom.
I managed to catch a large very well versed (albeit dead wrong) rat fish this time.
Discussing anything with a close minded person is a waste of my time. Uncovering the bigots here on this list pleases me no end.
I'm looking forward to any so called discussions you might have with those members of this list you deem worthy.
My bet is you will still be filled with hatred for the Palestinians when all is said and done.
baba ...through fishing for today.

Quote...snip.However, for the rest of you, I'll pass until you at least have read the Koran, and are willing to see the Muslims as the less than peaceful people that they are, because until then you are missing the biggest part of the equation.[/quote]

LOL, okay then, we'll assume you've "lost the discussion".

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

How many times must I point out what my words are and say.

My God, you take everything I say out of context, that is IF you even read it all.

I'm done with you, you have debunked yourself for the last time. (Now I'm going to label you in the context of a quote) : "When one argues with a fool, it becomes hard to tell them apart"...

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Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

Quote...snip.However, for the rest of you, I'll pass until you at least have read the Koran, and are willing to see the Muslims as the less than peaceful people that they are, because until then you are missing the biggest part of the equation.

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We keep tying peace to religion! What is with us? Do we wish to repeat things until they are right? It is NOT religion, it is US.
There are folks here that have no religion and they cry peace as well, (whisper:though I will never understood how they arrived there).
I am beginning to think this planet is not habituated by a race of people that do not want peace and are SO screwed up that they only think they want it. I fear that may be the case. Or that we really, really want peace, as a child wants candy and "will be good" just long enough. Personally I hope it's my brain just being fried from working in the sun too much and getting old, but dang, it sure seems different every time I look around at folks or read. I'll stop both soon enough, thank God.

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Posted in reply to the post by Debunker:

LOL, okay then, we'll assume you've "lost the discussion".

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Sure, whatever you want, you seem to be highly inclined to play with words, but you're very poor at it. A complete waste of time actually, but I have a serious question: Is English your first language?

I'm asking because you seem to have a very poor grasp of what is being said, and in what context, even when I specifically point it out to you.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

I've read the Koran, all the Jewish religious, and 'historical' books.
I've read 5 versions of the Bible...along with untold other such books from other cultures. BFD. all means is I can read...it is no indicator whatsoever that I have an open mind...and yours my dear is sealed tightly shut.
I often fish here to catch the rabid rat fish that lurk about spewing venom.
I managed to catch a large very well versed (albeit dead wrong) rat fish this time.
Discussing anything with a close minded person is a waste of my time. Uncovering the bigots here on this list pleases me no end.
I'm looking forward to any so called discussions you might have with those members of this list you deem worthy.

Really, how did you miss the fact that the ultimate goal of Islam is World domination at any cost.

My observation: You are one the fish I caught, and you have an extremely closed mind. Yoiu also apparently can't read very well, as I have nowhere said nor Implied that I hate Palestinians. I just don't trust them based on personal experience.

Your version is a bit whacked, you quote lots of books you have read, but your conversation isn't that of one who has read what you claim, unless you have an extremely closed mind. Which, apparently you do.

You also take things I say out of context, and make leaps of (ill)logic to put words in my mouth.

If you were to read what I actually said, you might remember that I have on 3 occasions pointed out that I feel sorry for the Palestinians. This pretty much plows you into the fields on a basis of truth and logic, but hey, you're educated right (The bane of the education system is that it teaches people put book learning over real life experiences, This from a former teacher...)

Go figure,

Yes, I'm a transsexual, were known for not having much in the way of compassion or life experiences (That is sarcasm BTW)

Admit it, you are an Israeli hater, PLO wanna-be, because that's what you learned in school.

Try to have some compassion for the citizens of Israel, the most persecuted people on Earth, who just want to live in peace in their homeland. A land they have bought over and over again in both blood and money.

As I have said: "You would think that after WWI, the World wouldn't stand for a single hate crime against a Jew, yet I find many Waccos who seem to think they are above this.

Absolutely amazing! And you people think you're so smart, and yet your philosophy isn't gaining traction, it's losing ground.

The most intolerant and ignorant peoples I have ever met are those on the hard Left and the hard Right. There is no amount of logic that will sway them from their utopian fantasies...



My bet is you will still be filled with hatred for the Palestinians when all is said and done.
baba ...through fishing for today.

Quote...snip.However, for the rest of you, I'll pass until you at least have read the Koran, and are willing to see the Muslims as the less than peaceful people that they are, because until then you are missing the biggest part of the equation.

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[/QUOTE]

I have no idea what the hell being a trans-sexual has to do with this thread.
It isn't going to cost you, or lose you any points.
You throw everything which comes at you right back at who ever opposes you.... which is not saying much for your ability to make a point either.
It does not serve your point very well to go from calling Palestinians vagabonds, suggesting they are like dogs in one breath, and in the other pretend you hold even the slightest sympathy for their plight.
Jews world wide are not the same as are those rabid, arch conservative, right wing, Zionist, Israeli who are systematically destroying Palestine in order to have a completely Jewish Israel.
As for your silly assumption that I am school educated...nice try but no win there.
I grew up in the streets...starting out on my own at 13 in the tenderloin.
90% of my 'education' is from life experience, or from libraries while locked up.
What I got from 'book learning' is coupled with whatever I picked up as I went through life is all I can draw upon. If my experience goes counter to what I have read I go back over what I have read, seek out other sources of information before abandoning the book learning (or else I start re-evaluating my life experience). It's not hard for me to admit I have been wrong...that's what life is really all about start, stop, whoops wrong path..whoops got that wrong too...whoops.... etc.
I've lived in all manner of countries among different peoples, and always among the poor, and guess what...I can't claim to know them (not based on a few years with this group or that group).
You, with your limit experience in Israel, coupled with your own 'book learning', are accusing me of what you are doing. ...assuming to know !!
You insist I read the Koran...I tell you I have read the Koran, and then you say I must not have grasped what was in it...or I didn't read it correctly...you haven't yet accused me of reading the wrong translation but maybe that will come in your next response.
As I said earlier....your mind is closed tightly on this issue, and there is probably no way in hell you will ever change if you persist you have all the answers about who is doing what to who.
You go on to accuse me of supporting Islam, and then assume I think their way lovely.....have I ever said such naive thing to you ?
Baba awaiting further venom

Karen/Todd,

I'm not sure why I'm responding here. You already know that your assertions on this thread are what I've called racist lies. But you gave me gratitude, which was a surprise. So here goes. And I will not be continuing beyond this response. There are other writing projects I've been procrastinating about.

First, I'm not an expert in the history of the "Middle East". I think my first conscious memory of Israel was while traveling with my family in Mexico and the news of the '67 War came over the radio. I was eleven years old. I'd been reading the newspaper for a year, and have done so ever since. A few years later I read, "Jews, God & History" and was probably a Zionist for a few years after that.

Mostly what I know is from observation from afar. I was also a member of the Palestine Solidarity Committee in Chicago from about 1990 to 1993, where I mostly followed events in Israel and "The Territories" via the Middle East Human Rights Center and the international news.

Oh yeah, I read a good bit of Leon Uris while in High School and thoroughly enjoyed his historical fiction. I've been on Rabbi Lerner's listserv, for his "Tikkun", project until I got tired of him providing the same analysis that I'd already figured out for myself from the news. Plus I haven't been big on religion for the last thirty-five years. I have contributed to The Middle East Children's Alliance, MECA, organized by Barbara Lubin et al. I still get their emails but feel guilty because I can't afford to donate at the moment.

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

Miles, I have out of necessity generalized here, IF you know the situation as well as you claim, then you know that the majority of those who call themselves Palestinians, are in fact nothing of the sort..

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No, I don't know that, and I do not believe it to be true.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

Furthermore, I'm referring to specifically the Islamic faction, because as you apparently know, lo and behold, the other factions try to distance themselves as far as possible from these peoples. The people of true Palestinian descent don't for the most part, all themselves Palestinians, they use titles such as Israeli Arabs, etc..

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The "Islamic faction", this is an unfamiliar term in the discussions I've read and participated in regarding these issues. As for who distances themselves from who...the politics here are complex.

I've got a question for you, who funded Hamas in the beginning? Who gave Hamas organizers a pass on security crackdowns, while the various factions within and offshoots from the PLO were being ruthlessly suppressed?

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

I'm talking specifically about the Islamic "Palestinians", the vast majority of which came from other lands. They also unfortunately make up the vast majority of those peoples whom the World knows as "Palestinians"...

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I do not believe this to be true, nor have I seen it claimed anywhere else, or before you started participating in this thread. You're going to have to back this up with specific quotes from clearly referenced and respected historical sources, before I give it any real attention. And no, I'm not going to do my own research here. You're making the claim, it's up to you to back it up.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

Blame Arafat, the issue was a much smaller issue until he sent out the call for the "Dispossessed of Palestine" and got thousands of angry Muslims with no historical link to Palestine. If you know your history as you say you do, then you also well know that until the formation of the PLO by Yassir, that the peoples of Palestine; Jew and Arab alike, got along reasonably well. The trouble started when Yassir suddenly swelled the Palestinian population with the dispossessed, the dispossessed of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq.

---

Get real, see my previous comment. My understanding is that Palestinian refugees, from '48, '56, '67 etc. fled not only to the West Bank and Gaza, but to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and parts beyond. There's a significant population in the U.S. Particularly in Dearborn, Michigan, if memory serves. But they're everywhere, even in Sonoma County. Watch OUT!!??

As for the peaceful coextence of Jews, Arabs and others in Palestine prior to 1948, yes I've heard these claims. And it may have been true in some places at some times. But it didn't last long when thousands of European Jewish refugees started pouring into Palestine after WWII. Even Zionist accounts acknowledge this. Also there was definite tension long before 1945 and after.

Again, the history is complicated. I don't have eidetic memory, and the issue is your racist lieing claims about the nature of the Palestinian people and their mutually antagonistic history with the Israeli Jews.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

To address your comment about 1948, many peoples who didn't want to stick around and find out what living under Jewish law might be like (From a Western mind, IE: One without the cloud of Jew vs, Muslim, living in Israel is much preferable to living in most of the countries listed above. Sandra Mackey makes this point, along with many of those I have enumerated above in her seminal book on the Mid-East: "Passion for Politics", which I'm sure you have read (As it's pretty much considered the de facto objective overview of the Mid-East)..

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"Didn't want to stick around"?! They were driven out using terror tactics. You know this even if you want to deny it. In fact, your characterization of events is classic denial.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

I'm not saying the IDF is a bunch of saints, but compared to the actions of the so-called "Palestinians", they are much better behaved.

Miles, if you want to have meaningful discussion on the subject, I'm all for it.

However, for the rest of you, I'll pass until you at least have read the Koran, and are willing to see the Muslims as the less than peaceful people that they are, because until then you are missing the biggest part of the equation.

---

I do not find your characterization of the IDF congruent with the facts as I understand them. Sniper killings in the territories of children, not all of whom were throwing stones, is one tiny case in point. The destruction and slaughter in Gaza recently is another. There's plenty more where that came from.

Using the phrase, "so-called 'Palestinians'" is racist denialism of the first and worst order.

First one must demonize and dismiss the "other" before being able to justify their suppression, removal and perhaps even their extermination. Hitler and the Nazis did it to the Jews, Socialists, Communists, Homosexuals, Roma, Slavs and developmentally disabled, with known results.

Using the suffering of themselves before and during WWII as a justification, doesn't make it any more acceptable when doing it (and by it I primarily mean demonizing and dismissing here, but also acts of offensive violence, even when they're represented as defensive) to others who inconveniently occupy the same territory they want/wanted to claim for themselves. Or reclaim as the case may be.

In fact it makes it worse and even more tragic than it would be without the experience of the Holocaust/Shoah as an excuse.

As for the inherently violent nature of Islam and Islamic people, I haven't read the Koran, but I know enough about it and the history of Islam to know gross overgeneralization, unlinked to any real informed or nuanced interpretation of the facts, when I read it.

And really, you want to claim Islam is somehow inherently more violent than what? Christianity? Buddhism? Shinto?

One of my interests growing up was military history, mostly of the west. But since then I've learned, among other things, about the repeated waves of conquest in Southeast Asia carried out by Buddhist kings and their armies. The Khmer, Siam, Burma, Annam weren't/aren't just cultures, they were empires, which invaded each other at various times. And they were all practicing Buddhists.

The things one can learn while supporting human rights and democracy in a country oppressed by a nationalistic military dictatorship!

I happen to love (in an adolescently sick way) bladed weapons, in particular swords. All Samurai were (are?) Buddhist. I wouldn't call them peace loving pacifists!

Characterizing an entire group as demonstrably evil, without looking at the particulars of their history and the history of their enemies, is racism, pure and simple.

Cut it out. It's gross. It's wrong. And it leads to nothing but more conflict, hate, murder and human suffering.

It's pretty depressing to see this kind of discussion - it doesn't seem to rise from any interest in improving the lives of anyone, anywhere in the world.

It started with a quoted article that says, in effect, "See, the Israelis are truly awful." followed by a deeply personal experience about an awful thing done by some Palestinians that's turned into the view that "see, the Palestinians are unbelievably awful". Followed by a bunch of messages of two types: "the (others) are far more awful than you'll admit" or "Jane, you ignorant slut..". There were a few calls for reason (thanks, Miles).

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that the whole area has been plagued by unspeakable violence, perpetrated, supported or exacerbated by all groups (including our own government and some of our citizens individually)? That all groups have been victimized? I don't really care that it's understandable how some have struck out with their own attacks. This relentless focus on the unjustifiable suffering of the victims on one side is turned into a blindness about the evils perpetrated in the name of the other side. There's no way forward here - none sought or offered. Handling the issue this way turns the whole topic into some sick kind of feedback, with people on opposing sides whipping each other into frenzy. The posts that refer people to the Koran, or the Bible, or even to historical events are no better - they're still attempts to prove that one side can't be blamed because the other's so awful. What's the logical follow-up to that premise?? That their suffering is unavoidable because it's their own doing, or as some of these posts imply is inherent in their nature?? How can you not find that the essence of racism?

to those for whom the slaughter of palestinians is a self-evident truth and who choose to stop the funding to israel in whatever way they can:

Boycott Israel

add to the above pottery barn and trader joe's.

i wrote to both companies and explained why i would no longer purchase their products and let them know that i forwarded my disconnection letter to everyone in my address book. i also told them they are welcome to contact me when they are no longer contributing to the slaughter of palestinians.

do not vote for any official who voted for the israeli billions.
let them know you will not vote for them and why. let them know frequently.

to those who are a bit more radical:

it is estimated that each american taxpayer donates $17.73 to israel yearly. either don't pay taxes or leave out $17.73 and explain why.

it is blood on our hands. that is enough to be 'inconvenienced' in order to stop it. but there is also the concept that what is done with you will be done to you.

I just wrote a thing that got flushed when I went to preview it. Lucky you, I'll just summarize.

The moral equivalency claim, that everyone is a victim and a victimizer, doesn't work for me. At the level of human suffering yes. But at the level of who did it, when, why, how much? No.

Please review or read the first page of the If Americans Knew website. I did a couple of evenings ago. I found the proposed measures that American Jews are calling for Israel to carry out the most important part. They're at the end of the page.

But the history of what was done to Palestinian Arabs by Israeli Jews (and their major supporter the US government) is almost as important. There's a lot of misinformation spread about what happened and the account on that page is a good corrective.

I imagine it is quite painful reading for anyone, especially American and Israeli Jews (or Jews from anywhere in the world for that matter), who has been raised with the popular history of Israel as a beacon of reason and justice glimmering in the darkness of Arab hatred and violence that surrounds and threatens its existence.

But it's the truth, so far as any such thing can be determined in such contested matters.

Two State / One State / The Peace Process / Palestinian violence that is self-defeating, I went into all of that, but I don't have the patience to recreate it here, so you're off the hook!

As for all of the "gratitude" I've received for my contributions to this thread, You're Welcome, and Thank You!

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

It's pretty depressing to see this kind of discussion - it doesn't seem to rise from any interest in improving the lives of anyone, anywhere in the world.

It started with a quoted article that says, in effect, "See, the Israelis are truly awful." followed by a deeply personal experience about an awful thing done by some Palestinians that's turned into the view that "see, the Palestinians are unbelievably awful". Followed by a bunch of messages of two types: "the (others) are far more awful than you'll admit" or "Jane, you ignorant slut..". There were a few calls for reason (thanks, Miles).

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that the whole area has been plagued by unspeakable violence, perpetrated, supported or exacerbated by all groups (including our own government and some of our citizens individually)? That all groups have been victimized? I don't really care that it's understandable how some have struck out with their own attacks. This relentless focus on the unjustifiable suffering of the victims on one side is turned into a blindness about the evils perpetrated in the name of the other side. There's no way forward here - none sought or offered. Handling the issue this way turns the whole topic into some sick kind of feedback, with people on opposing sides whipping each other into frenzy. The posts that refer people to the Koran, or the Bible, or even to historical events are no better - they're still attempts to prove that one side can't be blamed because the other's so awful. What's the logical follow-up to that premise?? That their suffering is unavoidable because it's their own doing, or as some of these posts imply is inherent in their nature?? How can you not find that the essence of racism?

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I started to compose a rebuttal using acknowledged objective information sources, but I have to work, so it may not get posted for a day or two. In the meantime, let me state categorically that I do not see any solution to the problem.

The Jews simply want to live in peace, but for 3500 years they have been attacked by seemingly just about every state on Earth because of their religion. The Muslims have on the other hand, attacked seemingly every state on Earth because of their religion.

Wait, there it is I'm done.....

You see, what everyone keeps doing is picking a section of time that works to show how evil the Jews are (and again, I have never implied that they are saints, just opressed. You don't last for 3500 years of being hated by much of the World by being a "roll over and pee on yourself" type of people), but we are talking about the longest running battle on Earth, and that must be looked at as a whole because otherwise you're just picking the moment that best serves your argument, and ignoring the greater whole. You can do that, but don't expect any but the already deluded to back you.

Looking at the whole, changes everything, because then the big picture becomes clear. Up until the beginning of the last century, there were at no time more than approx 5 million Jews, between then and WWII the Jewish population almost doubled because for the first time in history, Jews were not being killed almost as fast as they were being born. The Nazis put a stop to that growth. Since then, the Jewish population has steadily risen, and now there are maybe 13-14 million, of which approximately 5.5 million reside in Israel. So, as a "Zionist plot to take over the World", they are a pathetic failure.

Lets compare that to the more than 1 BILLION Muslims, the number of which who are sympathetic to the plight of the Jews is probably 0.01% of that number, and can't really be called Muslim anymore as the have been basically excommunicated (IE: 100K). The rest of the 999,900,000 Muslims have at best no use for Jews, and on the average, would like to see Tel Aviv nuked into a place that shows up on satellite photos as a dark, shiny spot that reflects sunlight.

There you go: Outnumbered approximately 100 to 1 against an implacable foe bent upon their extermination, stands tiny Israel. That they have not used weapons of mass destruction against the onslaught of Islam shows remarkably good behavior. How many times has Israel been attacked by it's neighbors just in the last 62 years? How many hundreds of time in the last 3500 years?

And you people want peace, hah! When? When the Muslims have killed all the Jews? Because that's about the only way it's going to happen, unless Tel Aviv starts nuking nearby Muslim cities to the point where they are scared to come within 500 kilometers of the Israeli borders.

There is going to be no peace, how can there be when your foe outnumbers you almost 100 to 1, utterly hates you, and is bent on World domination.

Take you pick, who do you want to win, the Jews, who only want to live in their hard earned ancestral homeland, or a people avowed to their destruction and World domination. And again, for all of those who want to live in a fantasy world where the Muslims are peaceful people: Read the Koran, because anybody pious enough to pray towards Mecca 5 times a day, takes every word of it very, very seriously.

Get it through your heads people, Islam has two ways to deal with you, the infidel: Convert and live under Islamic law, or die. There is no third option.

I will note that there are several versions of the Koran, and all but one of them advocates killing those who won't convert. That is the version that was especially composed recently for Western release, and none of the Muslims I have known live by it. (In fact some doubted it's existence, saying that: "No real Muslim would deny the truth of a solely Islamic World, it's the same as denying Allah".

I have been told by Islamic friends, that while they like me, "there will come a time when we are forced to either see you (Infidels) convert, or send you to paradise. It is not something that I chose, but it is the will of Allah, byt the words of the Prophet, and thus I must do his will, so pray it is not in your lifetime". This said with all seriousness while enjoying tea together, on several different occasions and persons.

As to the makeup of those who call themselves "Palestinians" (Yes you Mad Miles), well lets see: The current lands of Israel make up a grand total of 17% the lands the British labeled "Palestine" (Basically a renaming of what was referred to as the "Levant)", which ran from Cairo to almost Constantinople. Add to that the fact that the "Palestinians" lived primarily in Jordan and Lebanon, and it's easy to see how I can say that the (Muslim) "Palestinians" are aliens to the lands of the Israeli State. Again, we're only talking about the Muslim "Palestinians", as the Christian, Druze etc. are not the people that are launching rockets and blowing up schoolchildren, for among other reasons, the fact that they have been comfortably (relatively) living among the Jews for millennia

Another one to you Miles (Don't worry, I'm going to answer all of your points using only two sources: Wikipedia and Sandra Mackey's "Passion and Politics", because they are considered to be objective sources of reference material by both sides). You note that the Samurai were Buddhists. Quite true (although most were of the Shinto sect, a few Confucian and even a few Christians in later times) However, also remember that their first allegiance was to their Emperor. This is just a side bar because like you, I also have a fascination with edged weapons, and especially what I consider it's purest form; the Katana. I am an amateur blademaker, and I have a 18th century blade.

Yes, I can see it now, it's all the evil Jews fault for simply wanting to exist. The poor "Palestinians", you can't blame them from coming from throughout the Muslim empire to Israel, to try their hand at building a few bombs, strapping them to their children and women, and sending them to places where Jewish children congregate, the nerve of those dirty Jews for wanting to live in their ancestral homeland (that they have fought uncounted wars in defense of).

.

The Jews do the same to the Palentians, so what's the solution?

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by toddwquigley:

Well Allison dear, Some of us do know...

We know that as long as the so called "Palestinians" keep playing their political games of bombing innocents, using brainwashed children and women, that Israel will be forced to defend itself from invaders of it's borders.

We know that when you fire rockets from a residential area, into a residential area, people are going to get hurt, women, kids, dogs, cats, well just about anybody, except the male Palestinian who actually fired the rocket into the homes of innocent Israelis.

We know that the people who call themselves "Palestinians", actually have no genetic link to the peoples that inhabited Israel before the Hebrews moved in over 3,500 years ago (IE: Hittitites, Caananites, etc.). They are actually the people that Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq wanted to get rid of (The few real Plestinians moved out when given the chance back in 1948).

We know that Iran, Hamas, etc. supplies the weapons and training so that Israeli school children can be blown up.

In other words: We know the truth.

This coming from a transsexual woman who was injured in one such bombing. The object that left me with a permanent scar in my leg was a piece of an Israeli child's skull that your friends the PLO had blown up, along with a couple dozen other schoolchildren on Purim (A jewish children's holiday) about 13 years ago

The second bombing I was a close witness to, only left my clothes permanently stained by the vaporized remains of other Israeli children and their mothers. (I still have them, maybe you should wear them for a day).

It's not that I don't feel sorry for the Palestinians, it's just that I feel a lot less sorry for them then I do for the Jews. One would think that after WWII the World wouldn't stand for a single more Jew to be killed in hate crime, but I guess you're above all that...

No, I really don't want to hear any of your justification, because a decade later, I still can't forget what it was like, no matter how much I spend on counseling.

There is only one way to fight terrorists, and unfortunately it's not pretty, but neither can terrorists be allowed to be in control. And no, anarchy doesn't work.

So, if you have something to say, I invite you to spend a day wearing the clothes I wore that day in Israel, and then maybe I will listen to you.

However, I'll bet you won't have much to say thru all the tears...

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Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by iraefaga:

The Jews do the same to the Palentians, so what's the solution?

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Well actually the Jews DON'T strap bombs to the backs of their children or fire rockets indiscriminately into urban areas like the Palestinians do, That's called terrorism.

It's urban warfare so there is no way to completely avoid collateral damage, but the IDF does try to operate as cleanly as possible, if for no other reason that they usually have a half a dozen news crews watching them at all times.

It's the difference between trying to cause terror and trying to catch the ones causing the terror.

This being completely lost on many Wacco members.

However read my other posts: THERE IS NO ANSWER How can there be an answer when your enemy is a hundred times bugger than you, hates you, and is determined to make the World completely Muslim at any cost.

Pick a side, either your for a 100% Muslim World or you are not...

Your denial of reality is utterly amazing.

https://www.soundofegypt.com/palesti.../massacres.htm

Israeli troops 'admit they killed innocent civilians in Gaza war' | Mail Online

Quana

Israeli Massacre of Gazan Children & Civilians 06 Jan 09 (gazancivil+childmassacrebyisrael2.mov) | NowPublic Video Archives

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

Well actually the Jews DON'T strap bombs to the backs of their children or fire rockets indiscriminately into urban areas like the Palestinians do, That's called terrorism.

It's urban warfare so there is no way to completely avoid collateral damage, but the IDF does try to operate as cleanly as possible, if for no other reason that they usually have a half a dozen news crews watching them at all times.

It's the difference between trying to cause terror and trying to catch the ones causing the terror.

This being completely lost on many Wacco members.

However read my other posts: THERE IS NO ANSWER How can there be an answer when your enemy is a hundred times bugger than you, hates you, and is determined to make the World completely Muslim at any cost.

Pick a side, either your for a 100% Muslim World or you are not...

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This tells me all I need to know about you, and your completely insane argument.
It's either one side, or the other, and nothing in between (according to your skewed thinking). ie; support Israel blindly, and you're good guy, object to what they are doing wrong, and you are automatically pro Islam.
And if someone finds something good about Islam that person is automatically an enemy of Israel.
Pity you can't put your bright mind to something more useful than spewing hatred and bigotry
Baba

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

....Pick a side, either your for a 100% Muslim World or you are not...

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Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

This tells me all I need to know about you, and your completely insane argument.
It's either one side, or the other, and nothing in between (according to your skewed thinking). ie; support Israel blindly, and you're good guy, object to what they are doing wrong, and you are automatically pro Islam.
And if someone finds something good about Islam that person is automatically an enemy of Israel.
Pity you can't put your bright mind to something more useful than spewing hatred and bigotry
Baba

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The issue is black and white whether you like it or not. There's no grey area except in your head.

I didn't make it that way (Mohammed did) and I'm not supportive of it being that way, but it is what it is, and there are only two choices, not three.

I'm sorry you don't want to discuss things in a logical manner, but no matter how much we all wish things to be different, that's what they are.

If you can figure out a way to change the fact and make the World's 1 billion Muslims into a peaceful people, I'm sure you would not only get a Nobel prize, but the State of Israel would make you their leader, in fact they would probably call you the Messiah.

Stop with the assumptions about my character, because you're WAY off base. I'm actually one of the most caring people you have never met, but I also live in a world where reality rules the day, and the reality of the situation is that the most basic precept of Islam is a totally Islamic World achieved at any price.

There can be no negotiation with somebody who doesn't want to negotiate. How many times have the Jews sat down at the negotiations table, only to have the Muslims come up with totally insane conditions, or just walk away.

It's not like everyone hasn't tried to work with Islam, it's that Islam has never tried to work with everyone else.

I'm sorry, but reality isn't on your side.

Again, there is no answer unless you can figure how to make a peoples bent upon World domination into a peaceful people.

When you have won your Nobel prize, you can tell me how wrong I am, until then your arguments are just fantasy...

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

...It's urban warfare so there is no way to completely avoid collateral damage, but the IDF does try to operate as cleanly as possible, if for no other reason that they usually have a half a dozen news crews watching them at all times....

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So I suppose smearing their shit on the walls of occupied apartments during the last wholesale destruction of Gaza was for the TV crews to record? (Operation Cast Lead)

Your near psychotic fanaticism and denial of Israel's role in their predicament is profoundly creepy.

There's nothing crazier than people who think they're going to kill their way to peace.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

The issue is black and white whether you like it or not. There's no grey area except in your head.

I didn't make it that way (Mohammed did) and I'm not supportive of it being that way, but it is what it is, and there are only two choices, not three.

I'm sorry you don't want to discuss things in a logical manner, but no matter how much we all wish things to be different, that's what they are.

If you can figure out a way to change the fact and make the World's 1 billion Muslims into a peaceful people, I'm sure you would not only get a Nobel prize, but the State of Israel would make you their leader, in fact they would probably call you the Messiah.

Stop with the assumptions about my character, because you're WAY off base. I'm actually one of the most caring people you have never met, but I also live in a world where reality rules the day, and the reality of the situation is that the most basic precept of Islam is a totally Islamic World achieved at any price.

There can be no negotiation with somebody who doesn't want to negotiate. How many times have the Jews sat down at the negotiations table, only to have the Muslims come up with totally insane conditions, or just walk away.

It's not like everyone hasn't tried to work with Islam, it's that Islam has never tried to work with everyone else.

I'm sorry, but reality isn't on your side.

Again, there is no answer unless you can figure how to make a peoples bent upon World domination into a peaceful people.

When you have won your Nobel prize, you can tell me how wrong I am, until then your arguments are just fantasy...

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Final comment for you dear soul.
I'll quote what you said to me "reality isn't on your side".
In fact I do believe reality completely eludes you where this subject is concerned.
I'd love to see the news clippings from your Israeli Child skull fragment wounds too. Far too much drama in that story with out a shred of corresponding proof.
I'd hope you could produce something which makes at least a portion (however small) of your claims valid.
Baba

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

The issue is black and white whether you like it or not. There's no grey area except in your head.

I didn't make it that way (Mohammed did) and I'm not supportive of it being that way, but it is what it is, and there are only two choices, not three.

I'm sorry you don't want to discuss things in a logical manner, but no matter how much we all wish things to be different, that's what they are.

If you can figure out a way to change the fact and make the World's 1 billion Muslims into a peaceful people, I'm sure you would not only get a Nobel prize, but the State of Israel would make you their leader, in fact they would probably call you the Messiah.

Stop with the assumptions about my character, because you're WAY off base. I'm actually one of the most caring people you have never met, but I also live in a world where reality rules the day, and the reality of the situation is that the most basic precept of Islam is a totally Islamic World achieved at any price.

There can be no negotiation with somebody who doesn't want to negotiate. How many times have the Jews sat down at the negotiations table, only to have the Muslims come up with totally insane conditions, or just walk away.

It's not like everyone hasn't tried to work with Islam, it's that Islam has never tried to work with everyone else.

I'm sorry, but reality isn't on your side.

Again, there is no answer unless you can figure how to make a peoples bent upon World domination into a peaceful people.

When you have won your Nobel prize, you can tell me how wrong I am, until then your arguments are just fantasy...

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Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Debunker:

Your near psychotic fanaticism and denial of Israel's role in their predicament is profoundly creepy.

There's nothing crazier than people who think they're going to kill their way to peace.

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Troll,

You are beyond logic, did you not read one word I wrote? I never said there was a way to peace, in fact I said the complete opposite; There will never be peace until one party is annihilated. Quite simply there can't be peace when the Muslims are bent upon making the World a infidel free zone.

Change your name, you have de-bunked yourself once too often, I've got a new one for you: Troll, because that's exactly what you are. You troll, and that's all.

Again I ask, is English your native tongue? I will add, how old are you anyway?

Have you every read the Koran (A rhetorical question, as evidently you don't read anything except the first sentence)

Don't bother answering, I'm done with you, you make no sense, your statements are simply asinine in the extreme, and you don't have the wherewithal or respect to read what I am saying beyond the first sentence you don't like.

How can I have a discussion with somebody that never actually reads what I write? Simply amazing, you should be kicked off for being a troll.

This is my last correspondence with you because you cannot or will not read what I have written and respond in any sort of logical manner. You make assumptions, quote out of context and have proven yourself to be the insane one by your complete lack of logic. Typical troll, hating the World...

Just for your info, here's a list of PLO/Hamas attacks SINCE they signed a cease fire agreement in 1993.

Keep reading, it's several pages long and this is only from 1993 to 2008.

Oh yeah, Israel is the evil one here, sure, whatever...



Suicide and Other Bombing Attacks in Israel Since the Declaration of Principles (Sept 1993)

Suicide terror attacks 2000-2007




Apr 6, 1994 - Eight people were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 13, 1994 - Five people were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 19, 1994 - In a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel-Aviv, 21 Israelis and one Dutch national were killed.

Nov 11, 1994 - Three soldiers were killed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip when a Palestinian riding a bicycle detonated explosives strapped to his body. Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge the car bomb killing of Islamic Jihad leader Hani Abed on Nov 2.

Jan 22, 1995 - Two consecutive bombs exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, killing 20 soldiers and one civilian. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 9, 1995 - Seven Israelis and one American were killed when a bus was hit by an explosives-laden van near Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jul 24, 1995 - Six civilians were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in Ramat Gan.

Aug 21, 1995 - Three Israelis and one American were killed in a suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus.

Feb 25, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, 26 were killed (17 civilians and 9 soldiers). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 25, 1996 - One Israeli was killed in an explosion set off by a suicide bomber at a hitchhiking post oustide Ashkelon. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 3, 1996 - In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, 19 were killed (16 civilians and 3 soldiers).

Mar 4, 1996 - Outside Dizengoff Center in Tel-Aviv, a suicide bomber detonated a 20-kilogram nail bomb, killing 13 (12 civilians and one soldier).
I was there for that one

Mar 21, 1997 - Three people were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb on the terrace of a Tel Aviv cafe. 48 people were wounded.

Jul 30, 1997 - 16 people were killed and 178 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem.

Sep 4, 1997 - Five people were killed and 181 wounded in three suicide bombings on the Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem.

Oct 29, 1998 - One Israeli soldier was killed when a terrorist drove an explosives-laden car into an Israeli army jeep escorting a bus with 40 elementary school students from the settlement of Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip.

Nov 2, 2000 - Ayelet Shahar Levy, 28, and Hanan Levy, 33, were killed in a car bomb explosion near the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem. 10 people were injured. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 20, 2000 - A roadside bomb exploded at 7:30 in the morning alongside a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. Miriam Amitai, 35, and Gavriel Biton, 34, were killed and 9 others, including 5 children, were injured, 5 of them seriously.

Nov 22, 2000 - Shoshanna Reis, 21, of Hadera, and Meir Bahrame, 35, of Givat Olga, were killed, and 60 wounded when a powerful car bomb was denotated alongside a passing bus on Hadera's main street, when the area was packed with shoppers and people driving home from work.

Dec 22, 2000 - Three soldiers were injured in a suicide bomb attack at the Mehola Junction roadside cafe in the northern Jordan Valley. The terrorist, who detonated a belt of explosives strapped to him, was killed in the blast.

Jan 1, 2001 - A car bomb exploded near a bus stop in the shopping district in the center of Netanya. About 60 people were injured, most lightly. One unidentified person, apparently one of the terrorists involved in the bombing, died of severe burns. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 8, 2001 - A powerful car bomb exploded at 4:40 PM in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Beit Yisrael in Jerusalem, causing mild injuries to four people.

Feb 14, 2001 - Eight people were killed and 25 injured when a bus driven by a Palestinian terrorist plowed into a group of soldiers and civilians waiting at a bus stop near Holon, south of Tel-Aviv.

Mar 1, 2001 - One person was killed and 9 injured when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a Tel Aviv to Tiberias service taxi at the Mei Ami junction in Wadi Ara.

Mar 4, 2001 - Three people were killed and at least 60 injured in a suicide bombing in downtown Netanya.

Mar 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at 7:40 in the morning in the Talpiot industrial/commercial zone in Jerusalem. Seven people were injured, one moderately. The Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 27, 2001 - 28 people were injured, two seriously, in a suicide bombing directed against a northbound No. 6 bus at the French Hill junction in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 28, 2001 - Two teenagers were killed and four injured, one critically, in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 22, 2001 - A terrorist detonated a powerful bomb he was carrying near a group of people waiting at a bus stop on the corner of Weizman and Tchernichovsky streets in Kfar Sava. One person was killed and about 60 injured in the blast, two severely. The terrorist was also killed in the explosion, for which Hamas claimed responsibility.

Apr 23, 2001 - Eight people were lightly hurt in a car bombing in Or Yehuda, a few kilometers north of Ben-Gurion Airport, which senior police officers said could only be described as a "miracle" in an area packed with pre-Independence Day shoppers.

Apr 29, 2001 - A car bomb blew up close to a school bus travelling near the West Bank city of Nablus. There were no injuries in the attack. The body of the suicide bomber was found in the car. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 18, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber wearing an explosive vest detonated himself outside the Hasharon Shopping Mall in the seaside city of Netanya. Five civilians were killed and over 100 wounded in the attack. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 25, 2001 - 65 people were injured in a car bombing in the Hadera central bus station. The two terrorists were apparently killed in the explosion. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

May 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded in the center of Jerusalem shortly after midnight. There were no injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility.
A bomb exploded at 9:00 in the morning near the intersection of the capital's main Jaffa Road and Heshin Street. The bomb included several mortar shells, some of which were propelled hundreds of meters from the site of the explosion. 30 people were injured, most suffering from shock. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

May 30, 2001 - A car bomb exploded shortly before 16:00 outside a school in Netanya while a number of students were still in the building studying for matriculation exams. Eight people were injured, suffering from shock and hearing impairment. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

June 1, 2001 - 21 people were killed and 120 wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday, June 1, while standing in a large group of teenagers waiting to enter the disco.

June 22, 2001 - Sgt. Aviv Iszak, 19, of Kfar Saba, and Sgt. Ofir Kit, 19, of Jerusalem, were killed near Dugit in the Gaza Strip as a jeep with yellow Israeli license plates, supposedly stuck in the sand, blew up as they approached. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 2, 2001 - Two separate bombs exploded at about 8:20 Monday morning in cars in the Tel-Aviv suburb of Yehud. Six pedestrians were lightly injured. Police sources say the bombs were probably set by terrorists. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a radical PLO faction, claimed responsibility.

July 9, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber was killed in a car-bombing attack near the Kissufim crossing point in the southern Gaza Strip, causing no other casualties. Disaster was averted as the bomb exploded without hitting any other vehicles. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 16, 2001 - Cpl. Hanit Arami, 19, and St.Sgt. Avi Ben Harush, 20, both of Zichron Yaakov, were killed and 11 wounded - 3 seriously - when a bomb exploded in a suicide terrorist attack at a bus stop near the train station in Binyamina, halfway between Netanya and Haifa, at about 19:30 Monday evening. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 8, 2001 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated his car bomb, lightly wounding one soldier, at a roadblock near the B'kaot moshav in the northern Jordan Valley shortly after 9:00. One soldier was lightly wounded.

Aug 9, 2001 - 15 people were killed, including 7 children, and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 12, 2001 - 21 people were injured in a suicide bombing in the Wall Street Cafe in the center of Kiryat Motzkin at 17:30. The terrorist was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 21, 2001 - A bomb placed under a car exploded at 14:15 near the Russian Compound in downtown Jerusalem; one woman was treated for shock. A second, very large unexploded bomb was discovered inside the car and dismantled.

Sept 4, 2001 - 20 people were injured when a suicide terrorist exploded a powerful charge on Hanevi'im Street near Bikur Holim hospital in central Jerusalem shortly before 8:00 AM. The terrorist, disguised as a Jew in ultra-orthodox clothing, aroused the suspicion of passersby due to the large backpack he was wearing. As two Border Police officers approached the man, he detonated his shrapnel-packed bomb. Both officers were wounded - one critically. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Hamas claimed responsibility.

Sept 9, 2001 - Three people were killed and some 90 injured, most lightly, in a suicide bombing near the Nahariya train station in northern Israel. The terrorist, killed in the blast, waited nearby until the train arrived from Tel-Aviv and people were exiting the station, and then exploded the bomb he was carrying. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, injuring 17 people. One person killed in the explosion is believed to be the terrorist bomber.

Oct 1, 2001 - A large car bomb exploded in the Talpiot neighborhood of Jerusalem. Several people were lightly injured.

Oct 7, 2001 - Yair Mordechai, 43, of Kibbutz Sheluhot was killed when a Palestinian suicide terrorist affiliated with the Islamic Jihad detonated a large bomb strapped to his body near the entrance of the kibbutz in the Beit She'an Valley.

Nov 26, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed himself and lightly wounded two Border Policemen at the Erez crossing point in the Gaza Strip. The bomber joined workers waiting to be cleared for entry into Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 29, 2001 - Three people were killed and nine others were wounded in a suicide bombing on an Egged 823 bus en route from Nazereth to Tel Aviv near the city of Hadera. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 1, 2001 - 11 people were killed and about 180 injured when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem. A car bomb exploded nearby 20 minutes later. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 2, 2001 - 15 people were killed and 40 injured, several critically, in a suicide bombing on an Egged bus No. 16 in Haifa shortly after 12:00. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 5, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb shortly after 7:30 AM on King David Street in Jerusalem. A number of people waiting at a nearby bus stop were lightly injured. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Police are investigating whether the bomb, packed with nails and shrapnel, went off prematurely. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Dec 9, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb near a bus stop at the Checkpost Junction in Haifa shortly after 7:30 AM. About 30 people were injured, most lightly and suffering from shock. A second explosive device was found and detonated nearby. The terrorist was killed.

Dec 12, 2001 - Four people traveling in two cars were lightly wounded in an attack at 18:00 PM by two suicide bombers near the Gaza Strip community of Neve Dekalim.

Jan 25, 2002 - 25 people were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated explosives outside a cafe on a pedestrian mall near Tel Aviv's old central bus station at 11:15 AM on Friday.

Jan 27, 2002 - Pinhas Tokatli, 81, of Jerusalem was killed and over 150 people were wounded, four seriously, in a suicide bombing on Jaffa Road, in the center of Jerusalem, shortly before 12:30. The female terrorist, identified as a Fatah member, was armed with more than 10 kilos of explosives.

Feb 16, 2002 - Two teenagers were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. A third person subsequently died of his injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 18, 2002 - Policeman Ahmed Mazarib, 32, of the Bedouin village Beit Zarzir in the Galilee, was killed by a suicide bomber whom he had stopped for questioning on the Ma'ale Adumim-Jerusalem road. The terrorist succeeded in detonating the bomb in his car. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 27, 2002 - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up at the Maccabim roadblock on the Jerusalem-Modi'in highway Wednesday night, injuring three policemen.

Mar 2, 2002 - Eleven people were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

Mar 5, 2002 - Maharatu Tagana, 85, of Upper Nazareth was killed and a large number of people injured, most lightly, when a suicide bomber exploded in an Egged No. 823 bus as it entered the Afula central bus station. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 7, 2002 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the lobby of a hotel in the commericial center on the outskirts of Ariel in Samaria. 15 people were injured, one seriously. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 9, 2002 - 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded at 22:30 PM Saturday night in the crowded Moment cafe at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets in the Rehavia neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 17, 2002 - A suicide bomber exploded himself near an Egged bus no. 22 at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 25 people were lightly injured.

Mar 20, 2002 - Seven people, four of them soldiers, were killed and about 30 wounded, several seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus No. 823 traveling from Tel Aviv to Nazareth at the Musmus junction on Highway 65 (Wadi Ara) near Afula. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 21, 2002 - Three people were killed and 86 injured, 3 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing on King George Street in the center of Jerusalem. The terrorist detonated the bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers. The Fatah al-Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 27, 2002 - 30 people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The terrorist was a member of Hamas from Tulkarem, on the list of wanted terrorists Israel had requested be arrested.

Mar 29, 2002 - Two people were killed and 28 injured, two seriously when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2002 - One person was killed and about 30 people were injured in a suicide bombing in a cafe on the corner of Allenby and Bialik streets in Tel-Aviv. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 31, 2002 - 15 people were killed and over 40 injured in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 31, 2002 - An MDA paramedic was very seriously injured along with three other people at 17:00 Sunday afternoon in a suicide bombing at the emergency medical center in Efrat, in the Gush Etzion bloc south of Jerusalem.

Apr 1, 2002 - A police officer was killed in Jerusalem when a Palestinian suicide bomber heading toward the city center blew himself up in his car after being stopped at a roadblock. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 10, 2002 - Eight people were killed and 22 injured in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #960, en route from Haifa to Jerusalem, which exploded near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 12, 2002 - Six people were killed and 104 wounded when a woman suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge at a bus stop on Jaffa road at the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 7, 2002 - 16 people were killed and 55 wounded in a crowded game club in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv, when a suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge in the 3rd floor club, causing part of the building to collapse. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 19, 2002 - Three people were killed and 59 injured - 10 seriously - when a suicide bomber, disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.

May 20, 2002 - A suicide bomber, apparently bound for Afula, killed himself after Border Policemen approached him for questioning at a bus stop. There were no other injuries.

May 22, 2002 - Two people were killed and about 40 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.

May 23, 2002 - A bomb planted by terrorists exploded underneath a fuel truck at the Pi Glilot fuel depot north of Tel Aviv. The truck burst into flames, but the blaze was quickly contained.

May 24, 2002 - A security guard opened fire on a terrorist attempting to ram a car bomb into the Studio 49 Disco in Tel Aviv. The terrorist was killed and five Israelis slightly injured when the bomb exploded prematurely.

May 27, 2002 - A grandmother and her infant granddaughter were killed and 37 people were injured, some seriously, when a suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 5, 2002 - 17 people were killed and 38 injured when a car packed with a large quantity of explosives struck Egged bus No. 830 traveling from Tel-Aviv to Tiberias at the Megiddo junction near Afula. The bus, which burst into flames, was completely destroyed. The terrorist was killed in the blast. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 11, 2002 - A 14-year-old girl was killed and 15 others were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.

June 18, 2002 - 19 people were killed and 74 injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 19, 2002 - Seven people were killed and 50 injured - three of them in critical condition - when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem shortly after 7:00 P.M., as people were returning home from work. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 16, 2002 - Nine people were killed and 20 injured in a terrorist attack on Dan bus no. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel in Samaria. An explosive charge was detonated next to the bullet-resistant bus. The terrorists waited in ambush, reportedly wearing IDF uniforms, and opened fire on the bus. While four terror organizations claimed responsibility for the attack, it was apparently carried out by the same Hamas cell which carried out the attack in Emmanuel on Dec 12, 2001.

July 17, 2002 - Five people were killed - two Israeli and three foreign workers - and about 40 were injured, four seriously, in a double suicide bombing on Neve Shaanan Street near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 30, 2002 - Five people suffered light to moderate injuries in a suicide bombing at a felafel stand on Hanevi'im Street in the center of Jerusalem. The bomber, who was killed, apparently exploded prematurely.

July 31, 2002 - Nine people were killed and 85 wounded, 14 of them seriously, when a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus. The explosive device was planted inside the cafeteria, which was gutted by the explosion. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 4, 2002 - Nine people were killed and some 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of Egged bus No. 361 traveling from Haifa to Safed at the Meron junction in northern Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 5, 2002 - A bomb exploded in a car at the Umm al-Fahm junction in northern Israel, killing the terrorist and wounding the driver, an Arab Israeli resident of Nazareth.

Sept 18, 2002 - Police Sgt. Moshe Hezkiyah, 21, of Elyachin was killed and three people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Umm al Fahm junction. The terrorist, who was apparently planning to detonate the bomb after boarding a bus, set the charge off early when approached by the police for questioning. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 19, 2002 - Six people were killed and about 70 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb in Dan bus No. 4 on Allenby Street, opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsbility for the attack.

Oct 10, 2002 - Sa'ada Aharon, 71, of Ramat Gan was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board Dan bus No. 87 across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway (Route 4). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 21, 2002 - 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera. The bus had pulled over at a bus stop when the suicide bomber, from Jenin, driving a jeep, approached from behind and exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 27, 2002 - Two IDF officers and a non-commissioned officer were killed and about 20 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at the Sonol gas station at the entrance to Ariel in Samaria. The victims were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. The terrorist was identified as a member of Hamas.

Nov 4, 2002 - Two people - a security guard and a teenage boy, both recent immigrants from Argentina - were killed and about 70 were wounded in a suicide bombing at a shopping mall in Kfar Sava. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 21, 2002 - Eleven people were killed and some 50 wounded by a suicide bomber on a No. 20 Egged bus on Mexico Street in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem. The bus was filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, traveling toward the center of the city during rush hour. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 5, 2003 - Twenty-two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel-Aviv. The attack was apparently carried out by two members of the Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, with the help of the Islamic Jihad.

Mar 5, 2003 - Seventeen people were killed and 53 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus #37 on Moriah Blvd. in the Carmel section of Haifa, en route to Haifa University. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2003 - Over 40 people were wounded in a suicide bombing on the pedestrian mall at the entrance to the London Cafe in the center of Netanya. The bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 24, 2003 - Alexander Kostyuk, a 23-year-old security guard from Bat Yam, was killed and 13 were wounded, two seriously, in a suicide bombing outside the train station in Kfar Sava. Groups related to the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PFLP clamied joint responsibility for the attack.

Apr 30, 2003 - Three people were killed and about 60 peoople were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a beachfront pub "Mike's Place" in Tel Aviv. The Fatah Tanzim and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out as a joint operation. Investigation revealed that the two British Muslims involved in the suicide bombing were dispatched to perpetrate the attack by the Hamas military command in the Gaza Strip.

May 17, 2003 - Gadi Levy and his wife Dina, aged 31 and 37, of Kiryat Arba were killed by a suicide bomber in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 18, 2003 - Seven people were killed and 20 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus no. 6 near French Hill in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
A second suicide bomber detonated his bomb when intercepted by police in northern Jerusalem. The terrorist was killed; no one else was injured.

May 19, 2003 - Three IDF soldiers were lightly injured when a Palestinian on a bicycle detonated explosives next to a military jeep near Kfar Darom in the southern Gaza Strip. The bomber was killed. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 19, 2003 - Three people were killed and about 70 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Amakim Mall in Afula. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 22, 2003 - Nine Israelis were injured when a roadside bomb was detonated next to a bus near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip.

June 11, 2003 - Seventeen people were killed and over 100 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #14A outside the Clal building on Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 19, 2003 - Avner Mordechai, 58, of Moshav Sde Trumot, was killed when a suicide bomber blew up in his grocery on Sde Trumot, south of Beit Shean. The suicide bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 7, 2003 - Mazal Afari, 65, of Moshav Kfar Yavetz was killed in her home on Monday evening and three of her grandchildren lightly wounded in a terrorist suicide bombing. The remains of the bomber were also found in the wreckage of the house. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 12, 2003 - Erez Hershkovitz, 18, of Eilon Moreh, was killed and three people wounded when a teenaged Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself at a bus stop outside Ariel. Amatzia Nisanevitch, 22, of Nofim, died of his wounds on August 28.

Aug 19, 2003 - Twenty-three people were killed and over 130 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2003 - Nine IDF soldiers were killed and 30 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a hitchhiking post for soldier outside a main entrance to the Tzrifin army base and Assaf Harofeh Hospital. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2003 - Seven people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at Cafe Hillel on Emek Refaim St., the main thoroughfare of the German Colony neighborhood in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 4, 2003 - Twenty-one people were killed, including four children, and 60 wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist from Jenin in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 9, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber exploded himself at the DCO located at the entrance to Tulkarm. The bomber approached the reception window and exploded himself, injuring two IDF soldiers and a Palestinian.

Oct 15, 2003 - Three Americans were killed and one wounded at the Beit Hanoun junction in the Gaza Strip when a massive bomb demolished an armor-plated jeep in a convoy carrying U.S. diplomats.

Nov 3, 2003 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the West Bank village of Azun, near Kafr Qasem, when he saw Israeli security officials searching for him. One IDF soldier was lightly wounded. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade claimed responsibility for the failed attack.

Dec 25, 2003 - Four Israelis were killed and over 20 wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Geha Junction, east of Tel Aviv, near Petah Tikva. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 14, 2004 - Four Israelis - three soldiers and one civilian - were killed and 10 wounded when a female suicide bomber detonated a bomb at the Erez Crossing in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and the Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

Jan 29, 2004 - Eleven people were killed and over 50 wounded, 13 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus no. 19 at the corner of Gaza and Arlozorov streets in Jerusalem. The Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, naming the bomber as Ali Yusuf Jaara, a 24-year-old Palestinian policeman from Bethlehem.

Feb 22, 2004 - Eight people were killed and over 60 wounded, 11 of them school pupils, in a suicide bombing on Jerusalem bus no. 14A near the Liberty Bell Park. The Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, which was carried out by Mohammed Za'ul, from the Bethlehem area.
Mar 6, 2004 - Two Palestinian policemen were killed in a terror attack on the Erez crossing in northern Gaza involving rifle fire and suicide car bombs, including jeeps camouflaged as IDF vehicles. Two of the vehicles exploded on the Palestinian side of the crossing, and four terrorists were killed. There were no IDF casualties. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the military wing of Fatah all claimed responsibility.

Mar 14, 2004 - Ten people were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide bombing at Ashdod Port. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 17, 2004 - Border Policeman Sgt. Kfir Ohayon, 20, of Eilat was killed, three others wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up at the Erez Crossing. Hamas and Fatah claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

May 22, 2004 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated an explosive device at the Bekaot checkpoint in the northern Jordan Valley. The commander of the IDF checkpoint was lightly injured, as well as several Palestinians. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 11, 2004 - Sgt. Ma'ayan Na'im, 19, of Bat Yam, was killed and 33 wounded when a bomb exploded at a bus stop in downtown Tel Aviv at about 7 a.m. One person was critically wounded, four were moderately wounded, and the rest were lightly hurt.

Aug 11, 2004 - Two Palestinian bystanders were killed and 18 people were wounded, including six Border Policemen, when a bomb was detonated south of the Qalandiyah checkpoint at the northern entrance to Jerusalem.

Aug 31, 2004 - Sixteen people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12. The buses were traveling along Beersheba's main street, Rager Blvd, near the city hall. Hamas in Hebron claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 8, 2004 - A booby-trapped car exploded next to Israeli security personnel at the Baka al-Sharkiyeh checkpoint, near the Green Line border with the West Bank. The Palestinian driver of the car was killed in the blast. The Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 14, 2004 - A suicide bomber riding on a bicycle blew himself up near an armored IDF jeep at an agricultural gate, south of Qalqilyah, injuring two IDF soldiers.

Sept 22, 2004 - Two Border Policemen were killed and 17 Israelis wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist at the French Hill junction hitchhiking post in northern Jerusalem. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 7, 2004 - A total of 32 people were killed in terror bombings at two Sinai holiday resorts frequented by Israelis: 29 at the Taba Hilton and three at Ras a-Satan. Among the dead were 12 Israelis; over 120 were wounded.

Nov 1, 2004 - Three people were killed and over 30 wounded in a suicide bombing at the Carmel Market in central Tel Aviv. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Nablus claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out by Amar Alfar, 18, from Askar refugee camp in Nablus.

Dec 7, 2004 - St.-Sgt. Nadav Kudinsky, 20, of Kiryat Gat of the Oketz canine unit was killed by a bomb, along with his dog, when a booby-trapped chicken coup exploded northwest of the Karni Corssing in the Gaza Strip. Four soldiers were wounded in the exchange of fire while evacuating him. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 5, 2005 - A terrorist infiltrated the Erez crossing terminal in the Gaza Strip, activated an explosive device, hurled grenades and opened fire. An IDF force shot and killed the terrorist. The Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 12, 2005 - One Israeli civilian was killed and three IDF soldiers wounded when a bomb was detonated as a military vehicle patroled the route near Morag in the southern Gaza Strip. Two terrorists were killed by IDF forces. The area was booby-trapped with explosive devices, in addition to the bomb that exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 13, 2005 - On Thursday night, shortly before the closing of the Karni Crossing, terrorists activated an explosive device on the Palestinian side of the crossing, blowing a hole in the door through which Palestinian terrorists infiltrated the Israeli side of the crossing and opened fire at Israeli civilians. As a result of the explosion and during exchanges of fire, six Israeli civilians and three Palestinian terrorists were killed, and five Israeli civilians were wounded. Hamas and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed joint responsiblity for the attack.

Jan 18, 2005 - An ISA officer was killed, an IDF officer seriously wounded, and 4 IDF soldiers and 3 members of the ISA were lightly wounded in a suicide bombing attack at the Gush Katif junction in the central Gaza Strip. While search procedures were being carried out, the suicide bomber with explosives strapped to his body detonated himself. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 25, 2005 - Five people were killed and 50 wounded Friday night, when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside the Stage club on the Tel Aviv promenade at around 11:20 P.M., on the corner of Herbert Samuel and Yonah Hanavi streets. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 12, 2005 - Five people were killed and about 90 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself outside Hasharon Mall in Netanya. The bomber was identified as Ahmed Abu Khalil, 18, from the West Bank village of Atil. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 28, 2005 - A suicide bomber detonated himself outside the Beersheba Central Bus Station. Two security guards who stopped the bomber were severely wounded and about 50 people were lightly wounded or treated for shock. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 26, 2005 - Seven people were killed and 54 wounded, six seriously, in a suicide bombing at the Hadera open-air market. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 5, 2005 - Five people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Sharon shopping mall in Netanya. The terrorist detonated the bomb when he was stopped by security guards, one of whom was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 29, 2005 - Lt. Ori Binamo, 21, of Nesher was killed when a terrorist en route to carry out an attack in Israel detonated himself at roadblock set up near Tulkarm following an intelligence tip. A second intended suicide terrorist was also killed in the blast as well as the taxi driver and a third passenger. Three soldiers and seven Palestinians were wounded.

Jan 19, 2006 - Thirty-one people were wounded in a suicide bombing in a shawarma restaurant near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Jerusalem Battalions of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2006 - Four people were killed when a suicide bomber hitchhiker disguised as an ultra-Orthodox yeshiva student detonated his explosive device in a private vehicle near the entrance to Kedumim.

Apr 17, 2006 - Eleven people were killed and over 60 wounded in a suicide bombing during the Passover holiday near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv, at the Rosh Ha'ir shawarma restaurant, site of the Jan 19 bombing. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 29, 2007 - Three employees of a bakery in the southern city of Eilat were killed in a suicide bombing. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 4, 2008 - Lyubov Razdolskaya, 73, of Dimona was killed and 38 wounded - Razdolskaya's husband critically - in a terror attack carried out by a suicide bomber at a shopping center in Dimona. A police officer shot and killed a second terrorist before he detonated his explosive belt. A Hamas statement from Gaza praised the attack, calling it an "heroic act".

Mar 6, 2008 - Eight students of the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva in Jerusalem were killed when a terrorist armed with a Kalashnikov assault rifle infiltrated the yeshiva and opened fire in the library where about 80 people were gathered, mostly teenagers. Eleven others were wounded, three critically. The terrorist, a resident of East Jerusalem, was killed by an IDF officer.

May 14, 2008 - At about 6 pm an Iranian-made Grad rocket launched from the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip hit a busy shopping mall in central Ashkelon. 90 people were wounded, four of them seriously, among them a 24-year-old mother and her infant daughter.

July 2, 2008 - Three people were killed and over 50 wounded in a terror attack in Jerusalem. Driving a bulldozer on Jaffa Road between the Central Bus Station and the Mahane Yehuda market, the terrorist plowed into cars and pedestrians as well as two public buses carrying some 50 passengers. Police shot and killed the terrorist.

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Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles:

So I suppose smearing their shit on the walls of occupied apartments during the last wholesale destruction of Gaza was for the TV crews to record? (Operation Cast Lead)

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I said "Try" and "Usually". They certainly have a whole hell of a lot more oversight than the Palestinians. I'd love to see that on the news: A CNN crew imbedded with some PLO terrorists. Bloody effing hilarious... How about a UN observation crew... ROFL!

Come on Miles, for the umpteenth time: I've never said the Israeli's were either saints, nor perfect. But in comparison to the Muslims, they are pretty nice people on the whole.

Again Read the Koran, spend some time there and I guarantee your view will change. You can read all about it and make all kinds of judgements based on that, and in some circumstances that might work, or might be the only option, but if you are going to discuss Islam, you could at least read an old copy of the Koran (before they started to print special versions for Westerners). I can't believe that a person of your apparent intelligence would discuss the subject without reading the three (two really) books that are the cornerstones of the three religions. How can you possibly expect to understand a people who are so fanatical that they stop everything they are doing 5 times a day to pray towards Mecca, and who are so legalistic, without reading that which they base their lives around.

Mohammed says that if person will not convert to Islam, then it is better to send an him to paradise, than to let him live as an infidel.

The central precept of Islam is to work towards a completely Muslim World by any means possible. This is why they are so comfortable with killing any unbeliever that they happily strap explosives onto their own children and women.

The other central precept of Islam is that only men of Islam are truly human, women and children don't count, and a man can kill his own family if he so desires, and the law will do nothing about it.

It's simply a bloodthirsty religion, and it's adherents are trying to turn back the clock to 630AD, when they were feared and respected, and nobody but men of Islam counted.

I'm not saying that millions haven't been killed by people who have distorted Christianity and Buddhism, but at their heart, they both profess peace first and foremost. It's the people who have distorted them to their benefit who are to blame, not the religions themselves.

Islam does not, in fact as I have noted, it specifically advocates and even demands killing others who don't agree. That is a huge difference.

It's a sick and perverse thing, it talks about how you should try to be nice, but if that doesn't work, then you have the right to kill. Read it from an objective standpoint, and be prepared to be both shocked and scared (unless you're Muslim, then you're good to go...

As I have noted: I'll be back to refute most of the rest of your statements from the other day, with information from acknowledged objective sources.

Here, I'll paste the list of PLO bombings after the cease fire was signed back in 1993. This covers the period from 1994 to 2008, it's several pages long...

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Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

Final comment for you dear soul.
I'll quote what you said to me "reality isn't on your side".
In fact I do believe reality completely eludes you where this subject is concerned.
I'd love to see the news clippings from your Israeli Child skull fragment wounds too. Far too much drama in that story with out a shred of corresponding proof.
I'd hope you could produce something which makes at least a portion (however small) of your claims valid.
Baba

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You know, now you're insulting me. I'll tell you what YOU go find the articles, there were aplenty of them when the Purim Bombings took place back in 1996.

Yes it's an emotional thing for me. Duh!!!! What kind of heartless ass are you???

If you wanted to piss me off, this would do it, but I'm not going to play your GAME, I'm just going to tell you what happened as best as I can remember from 14 years ago, and maybe you will feel the pain too.

Out of curiosity I just checked Wiki, but they just list from the official Israeli archives which don't evidentially include those who were just injured or foreigners. The original news stories at the time listed several variations of the number of "unidentified foreigners injured". I'm guessing that there were probably a dozen or so of us foreigners that had "slight injuries", but I seem to remember 6 or 7 who were actually listed as "Injured" and 2 or 3 more that were listed as killed in that one bombing at the mall.

Understand that I didn't go to the hospital until a couple days later, and that there were a series of bombings going on for several days around Purim (the end of February, basically a week after my birthday. Maybe if you look hard enough you'll find a clipping with me name on it, it's not something I would want to keep, that's for sure

If you wiki Purim, (Purim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) you'll see why Muslims would want to use it as statement, it's about Lot's of people were killed, a whole lot more were injured, and many never made it into the papers. The hospitals were still full from an earlier series of bombings a few weeks prior. How many were killed total I'm not sure, but a couple hundred seems correct. Also there were many instances of small attacks that didn't make it into the papers. Muslims were killing and attacking Jews all over not just Tel Aviv, but all over Israel. This kind of crap goes on every year during the Jewish holidays and you can set your clock by them.

So, anyway...

I had been in Israel about a month with my girlfriend and we went to Tel Aviv to see her Jewish/American friend and her Jewish friends, who were going to join some other friend's and their children who were shopping for the celebration the next day. We were a couple hundred feet from the entrance to the big mall, diagonally across and down the major multi lane road, and had paused because of traffic and we were trying to decide which stores the kids wanted to go to first.

All the sudden people started yelling and running away from the road towards us, and a couple seconds later there was a huge, deep explosion that moved a lot of air and a lot of dust. It knocked me backwards and down, and about knocked the wind out of me. I got up and my first concern was my girlfriend and her friend's kids. I think we all had a few cuts and bruises but nothing worth going to the hospital over.

What we immediately realized is that while we had been talking, one of my girlfriend's friend's son had continued on down the road and had started across, which put him close enough to the bomber in the middle of the road, that he was effectively vaporized. I can't explain the shock, and just writing about it is making me cry. I really didn't know Ellie that well, but I had just been talking to her son about American Music and culture not a minute before (Gwenn Stefani I think), and then he was gone.

We went to our friends house, washed off the cuts and bruises, and I found the cut on my left leg. It didn't seem all that horrible, and I was in shock over what had happened. a day later it started to show signs of infection and I felt something in the cut, I tried to dig it out, but it hurt too much. I can't remember if it was the second, or third day, but it was finally oozing but halfway healed, so I went to the hospital (A clinic actually). They numbed it up, dug out the skull fragment, and gave me a couple of shots and some pills to take home. The nurse didn't want to tell me what it was that was stuck in my leg, and wouldn't let me see it, so I thought that odd because I was sure it was just some concrete or something, so I asked the doctor, and when she told me, I pretty much freaked out, because I flashed back on what my mind had been hiding which was seeing Elli's son disappear into the shockwave of the blast.

OK I'm done, you win, you got me pissed, you're an asshole, a complete fucking asshole for making me remember that.

Happy asshole????

If anyone is bent on world domination, it's the United States. We spend more on our military than all other nations in the world combined.

What Muslim country has military bases in over a hundred other nations like the U.S. does?

Can you name ANY Muslim nation that has a military base in ANY western nation? On the other hand, the U.S. has a military presence in almost every Muslim country.

1.6 billion Muslims live in every nation on earth. Millions live peacefully in all the western nations, including the United States. Muslims are the majority in over 50 nations. The only ones at 'war' with the west coincidentally live in countries that have property or resources the U.S. and Israel covet.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

You are beyond logic, did you not read one word I wrote? I never said there was a way to peace, in fact I said the complete opposite; There will never be peace until one party is annihilated...

---

HELLO, I said, "There's nothing crazier than people who think they're going to kill their way to peace", and you just reiterated it.

Karen, I'm wondering two things:
1. Is it your belief that the Muslims must be annihilated?
2. What do you make of the total lack of agreement with your position, here on WACCO?

kp

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by kpage9:

Karen, I'm wondering two things:
1. Is it your belief that the Muslims must be annihilated?
2. What do you make of the total lack of agreement with your position, here on WACCO?

kp

---

1) No, neither do I propose any such thing. I would hope that they can be educated away from their beliefs, but I also don't claim to have any answer to the problem either.

2) You are wrong, I have received a lot of gratitude, look at my posts. However I do note that the majority of Waccos are extremely leftist, and as I note in a couple of my posts, nowhere do you meet with such closed minds as with the extreme left and the extreme right.

OK wait, I'm going to change that. I'm a transsexual, and as such I've done a HUGE amount of research on the subject. Using this research I can easily demonstrate that transsexuals are in no way related to transgendered gays, we have absolutely nothing in common with LGBT. We simply have an unfortunate birth defect of having been incompletely sexualized in the womb. IE: The Chromosomes correctly determined our genitals to be one sex, but those genitals then didn't produce enough, or produced too much of the proper hormone, resulting in a brain that doesn't match the genitals.

When I explain this to extreme Right Christians, I have been invariably met with understanding, love and compassion, however when I explain this to Extreme liberals (especially LGBT) I am met with an attitude that I'm lost and I just need to embrace who I really am. I've had people from the extreme left get quite angry with me over this, and yet there is a preponderance of information that proves them wrong, starting with the whole European medical establishment and ending with (surprise) the AMA.

In fact I wont be surprised if I get a response to this right here.

To my mind this and many other examples lead me to beieve that the extreme leftists (Which most, but not all Waccos are) have some of the most closed minds of all Americans. I think the problem comes from political indoctrination during school. Very few instructors are anything but extreme leftists, and therefore they produce more extreme leftists. Hey, when you live in a World where you are paid to theorize and your theories are almost never challenged except by your same thinking peers, it's so easy to become convinced that you really do know what you're talking about.

"I was surrounded by some very intelligent people who all had higher degrees than I did and we were all in agreement, and you are going to try and tell me I'm wrong? Hah! I've known these things to be truths since I was 20 years old"...

American academia has been divorcing itself from reality more and more since the 40's. Only in the science departments do you find peer review that extends beyond academia, out into the real World.

If your 2+2 doesn't = 4, you are going to hear about it from other scientists in a big hurry.

This is why the concept that man is the major contributor to global warming gains so much traction in the media, but so little among the World's scientists.

There was recently a report "by 250 scientists" who support global warming. Well one would think that if it was as the article says it is "a life threatening problem" you could get more than 250 of the millions of scientists to sign on.

However, good luck with that. We all recognize global warming, that's not the issue, it's how much man has contributed to it that the majority of scientists disagree with. While the public is enamored with Al Gore and Polar Bears, the scientific community at large is not.

For many, it seems a huge waste to spend trillions worrying about CO2 emissions, when they believe that man is only responsible for (and able to effect either positively or negatively), an insignificant 2-3%.

No I'm not entertaining a discussion on CO2 emissions on Wacco, I once tried that and in response to lots of peer reviewed, I got lots of Al Gore style emotions and very little in the way of hard science. I'm just using it as a point.

People on the extremes of the left and right are people who are very emotionally connected to their ideals, and their minds are therefore by necessity, hard to sway, regardless of logic or truth.

Here's an letter I wrote to to a transsexual friend on facebook, that gives a pretty good idea of who I am, and as you can see, I'm pretty much an independent, even though I agree with parts of the left and right in about equal proportions.

I also by the way, represent the independent, self thinking people who control elections, and I have a little news for ya'all: Say goodbye to the Democratic control of Congress, and in fact if we can, we are going to impeach Obama (I'm not a lawyer, so I'll avoid the hows), and retroactively, Bush too if we can.

I'm personally not so sure that would be a good idea; Can you imagine Joe "When FDR watched the depression on TV....", Biden as President:

"Oops, I thought that red button was to order another scotch"...

Anyway (come on laugh...), here's me, and as you can see, I'm not such an evil person after all. I may argue voraciously here on the forum, but in my actual dealings with people, if I don't agree, I just shut up, listen, and love them anyway.

I will however note that the realist in me believes that not everyone is savable, and making the decision of whom to spend yourself on and whom to avoid, is one of the hardest decisions anyone can make.

Anyway, all my best Karen

Here ya' go:



Kelli, I so agree with you. This is why I keep preaching these things:

"Divorce yourself from LBGT, because they don't give a _____ about you as a transsexual (in fact on the whole, they neither understand nor like us), stand on your own feet, and demand your rights as a woman".

If you are pre-op: "Respectful, gently and graciously educate everyone you meet (especially other women who are more receptive and compassionate) that you are nothing more than a regular woman ("Just like you") who was born with a simple birth defect that you are in the act of correcting".

If you are post-op: "Respectfully, gently and graciously educate that you are just a regular woman who has recovered from a simple birth defect".

"Don't talk about anything to do with gay, transvestites, trans-gender etc.". If the subject comes up, respectful, gently and graciously steer it away from those subjects and onto something neutral.

"Whatever you do, don't argue with people's religious or political (One and the same) principals". Whatever you say will stick in their mind as being what is wrong with transsexuals and will negate any gains you have made". I'm not saying that you should roll over and play dead, just respectful, gently and graciously refuse to engage.

I am what might be called "The Christian Right", although that wouldn't really be correct, so I'll elaborate, because I'm sure that statement makes many people curious, but it also gives me a view into their minds that many don't see:

I am a spiritual person, and I try to make my higher power the center of my life. I try to live by the concept of: "Love your God, love yourself, and love your neighbor", because that's what Jesus was all about, according to the book written by the only person who was actually there: John

FYI: You will find no hate in the book of John, only love, understanding, peace, patience and tolerance, however you will also find that Jesus wasn't a wimp when it came to those who were abusive towards others. Regardless of your beliefs, you'll probably agree with those concepts, so why should we argue? Yet another: Go figure...

I'm a fiscal conservative, and I believe that charity starts with your family, extends out to your neighbors, and thus to your community and then to society at large. I temper this with the knowledge that "I can't save them all", for among other reasons, primarily, that many don't want to be saved. Socialism has financially broken every everyone who has tried it: From Russia, to Greece last week, to Spain, Italy and France this summer, everybody eventually learns that there is no such thing as a free lunch, that conformity enforces mediocrity and suppresses diversity and innovation, and that Thomas Jefferson was right about big government. (Hey, it only took 70 years, but bit by bit Germany is going to own Europe)

I believe that the Constitution has been trampled on by every President in the last 90 years in an exponential fashion (Yes, Starting with Woodrow Wilson and his sell out elite big money IE: Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Vanderbilts, etc. and their creation of the "Federal Reserve", as a means of controlling the economy, to FDR's house of cards entitlement programs and push for WWII, to Nixon, Bush and Obama's "Shut up, I know what's best for you", they have each gotten progressively worse than the last, but that's another discussion.)

I believe that people have a right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't cause serious trouble for other people, and this goes hand in hand with my belief that we need to be tolerant of other people and their beliefs as long as they are not being malicious, careless, or just plain stupid (This is obviously where it all gets subjective).

I guess I'm a "Liberal Conservative", or a "Conservative Liberal" (Politically I'm nominally a Libertarian, but...), but I can tell you that there are a lot of "me" out there, we're the ones that get labeled "Independent", and we are the ones that control elections (Now I'm a power hungry bitch...)

For once, I'm OK with the label society attaches to me, in fact I'm a little proud of being thought of as "Independent", as to me it means I think for myself, and I think everyone should question the extremes, as there's both good and bad to be found in both sides.

I say this because so many think the right is the enemy, and yet I have found just as much acceptance from the right as the left, IF, they are approached in a respectful, gentle and gracious way. If you go into a situation being confrontational from the beginning, don't be surprised when it ends the same way it started, just magnified.

I have talked to many extreme Christian Conservatives, and so far the only one who hasn't walked away with understanding and compassion for us so-called "Trans-women", is my own dear mother.

I have also talked to many extreme Liberals, and have found minds just as closed, and I have also been able to open most of them too, (although here I have found more resistance here to separating us from LGBT, go figure...Yes, to me the left is more closed, probably because in indoctrination in school.)

The key to it all has been to be respectful, gentle and gracious. LISTEN to their opinions, don't make fun of them, don't condemn them, don't act like some jackass male who knows it all (Something I still do on occasion). Be a gentle and gracious person, it's a wonderful trait, and people almost always respond positively to it (Note to self: If you practiced this more with mom, you might see better results).

Some minds are closed permanently, but actually their number is quite few when you practice the love that you profess.

I didn't think I'd be mad enough to engage you again Krazy Kat.
I neither like nor dislike trans-sexual people. I am wise enough to admit I know nothing about that subject. Only fools attack that which they do not understand.
If this is who you are, then this is who you are, and if it cannot be changed, ( or you have no desire to change should change be possible) you must be accepted....just as one accepts all aspects of nature.
As I remember..... Thoreau, and a few friends were once watching a powerful night storm......thunder clapping, lightening flashing, winds howling, etc. and one of the members of that group...no doubt hoping to sound expansive said: "Ah I accept nature"..to which Thoreau responded: "Well by God you'd better !".
One must accept certain things...but one must also combat that which is unnatural and intolerable...in this case your viscous attacks on all of Islam, and blind support of Israel.
Baba

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

1) No, neither do I propose any such thing. I would hope that they can be educated away from their beliefs, but I also don't claim to have any answer to the problem either.

2) You are wrong, I have received a lot of gratitude, look at my posts. However I do note that the majority of Waccos are extremely leftist, and as I note in a couple of my posts, nowhere do you meet with such closed minds as with the extreme left and the extreme right.

OK wait, I'm going to change that. I'm a transsexual, and as such I've done a HUGE amount of research on the subject. Using this research I can easily demonstrate that transsexuals are in no way related to transgendered gays, we have absolutely nothing in common with LGBT. We simply have an unfortunate birth defect of having been incompletely sexualized in the womb. IE: The Chromosomes correctly determined our genitals to be one sex, but those genitals then didn't produce enough, or produced too much of the proper hormone, resulting in a brain that doesn't match the genitals.

When I explain this to extreme Right Christians, I have been invariably met with understanding, love and compassion, however when I explain this to Extreme liberals (especially LGBT) I am met with an attitude that I'm lost and I just need to embrace who I really am. I've had people from the extreme left get quite angry with me over this, and yet there is a preponderance of information that proves them wrong, starting with the whole European medical establishment and ending with (surprise) the AMA.

In fact I wont be surprised if I get a response to this right here.

To my mind this and many other examples lead me to beieve that the extreme leftists (Which most, but not all Waccos are) have some of the most closed minds of all Americans. I think the problem comes from political indoctrination during school. Very few instructors are anything but extreme leftists, and therefore they produce more extreme leftists. Hey, when you live in a World where you are paid to theorize and your theories are almost never challenged except by your same thinking peers, it's so easy to become convinced that you really do know what you're talking about.

"I was surrounded by some very intelligent people who all had higher degrees than I did and we were all in agreement, and you are going to try and tell me I'm wrong? Hah! I've known these things to be truths since I was 20 years old"...

American academia has been divorcing itself from reality more and more since the 40's. Only in the science departments do you find peer review that extends beyond academia, out into the real World.

If your 2+2 doesn't = 4, you are going to hear about it from other scientists in a big hurry.

This is why the concept that man is the major contributor to global warming gains so much traction in the media, but so little among the World's scientists.

There was recently a report "by 250 scientists" who support global warming. Well one would think that if it was as the article says it is "a life threatening problem" you could get more than 250 of the millions of scientists to sign on.

However, good luck with that. We all recognize global warming, that's not the issue, it's how much man has contributed to it that the majority of scientists disagree with. While the public is enamored with Al Gore and Polar Bears, the scientific community at large is not.

For many, it seems a huge waste to spend trillions worrying about CO2 emissions, when they believe that man is only responsible for (and able to effect either positively or negatively), an insignificant 2-3%.

No I'm not entertaining a discussion on CO2 emissions on Wacco, I once tried that and in response to lots of peer reviewed, I got lots of Al Gore style emotions and very little in the way of hard science. I'm just using it as a point.

People on the extremes of the left and right are people who are very emotionally connected to their ideals, and their minds are therefore by necessity, hard to sway, regardless of logic or truth.

Here's an letter I wrote to to a transsexual friend on facebook, that gives a pretty good idea of who I am, and as you can see, I'm pretty much an independent, even though I agree with parts of the left and right in about equal proportions.

I also by the way, represent the independent, self thinking people who control elections, and I have a little news for ya'all: Say goodbye to the Democratic control of Congress, and in fact if we can, we are going to impeach Obama (I'm not a lawyer, so I'll avoid the hows), and retroactively, Bush too if we can.

I'm personally not so sure that would be a good idea; Can you imagine Joe "When FDR watched the depression on TV....", Biden as President:

"Oops, I thought that red button was to order another scotch"...

Anyway (come on laugh...), here's me, and as you can see, I'm not such an evil person after all. I may argue voraciously here on the forum, but in my actual dealings with people, if I don't agree, I just shut up, listen, and love them anyway.

I will however note that the realist in me believes that not everyone is savable, and making the decision of whom to spend yourself on and whom to avoid, is one of the hardest decisions anyone can make.

Anyway, all my best Karen

Here ya' go:



Kelli, I so agree with you. This is why I keep preaching these things:

"Divorce yourself from LBGT, because they don't give a _____ about you as a transsexual (in fact on the whole, they neither understand nor like us), stand on your own feet, and demand your rights as a woman".

If you are pre-op: "Respectful, gently and graciously educate everyone you meet (especially other women who are more receptive and compassionate) that you are nothing more than a regular woman ("Just like you") who was born with a simple birth defect that you are in the act of correcting".

If you are post-op: "Respectfully, gently and graciously educate that you are just a regular woman who has recovered from a simple birth defect".

"Don't talk about anything to do with gay, transvestites, trans-gender etc.". If the subject comes up, respectful, gently and graciously steer it away from those subjects and onto something neutral.

"Whatever you do, don't argue with people's religious or political (One and the same) principals". Whatever you say will stick in their mind as being what is wrong with transsexuals and will negate any gains you have made". I'm not saying that you should roll over and play dead, just respectful, gently and graciously refuse to engage.

I am what might be called "The Christian Right", although that wouldn't really be correct, so I'll elaborate, because I'm sure that statement makes many people curious, but it also gives me a view into their minds that many don't see:

I am a spiritual person, and I try to make my higher power the center of my life. I try to live by the concept of: "Love your God, love yourself, and love your neighbor", because that's what Jesus was all about, according to the book written by the only person who was actually there: John

FYI: You will find no hate in the book of John, only love, understanding, peace, patience and tolerance, however you will also find that Jesus wasn't a wimp when it came to those who were abusive towards others. Regardless of your beliefs, you'll probably agree with those concepts, so why should we argue? Yet another: Go figure...

I'm a fiscal conservative, and I believe that charity starts with your family, extends out to your neighbors, and thus to your community and then to society at large. I temper this with the knowledge that "I can't save them all", for among other reasons, primarily, that many don't want to be saved. Socialism has financially broken every everyone who has tried it: From Russia, to Greece last week, to Spain, Italy and France this summer, everybody eventually learns that there is no such thing as a free lunch, that conformity enforces mediocrity and suppresses diversity and innovation, and that Thomas Jefferson was right about big government. (Hey, it only took 70 years, but bit by bit Germany is going to own Europe)

I believe that the Constitution has been trampled on by every President in the last 90 years in an exponential fashion (Yes, Starting with Woodrow Wilson and his sell out elite big money IE: Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Vanderbilts, etc. and their creation of the "Federal Reserve", as a means of controlling the economy, to FDR's house of cards entitlement programs and push for WWII, to Nixon, Bush and Obama's "Shut up, I know what's best for you", they have each gotten progressively worse than the last, but that's another discussion.)

I believe that people have a right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't cause serious trouble for other people, and this goes hand in hand with my belief that we need to be tolerant of other people and their beliefs as long as they are not being malicious, careless, or just plain stupid (This is obviously where it all gets subjective).

I guess I'm a "Liberal Conservative", or a "Conservative Liberal" (Politically I'm nominally a Libertarian, but...), but I can tell you that there are a lot of "me" out there, we're the ones that get labeled "Independent", and we are the ones that control elections (Now I'm a power hungry bitch...)

For once, I'm OK with the label society attaches to me, in fact I'm a little proud of being thought of as "Independent", as to me it means I think for myself, and I think everyone should question the extremes, as there's both good and bad to be found in both sides.

I say this because so many think the right is the enemy, and yet I have found just as much acceptance from the right as the left, IF, they are approached in a respectful, gentle and gracious way. If you go into a situation being confrontational from the beginning, don't be surprised when it ends the same way it started, just magnified.

I have talked to many extreme Christian Conservatives, and so far the only one who hasn't walked away with understanding and compassion for us so-called "Trans-women", is my own dear mother.

I have also talked to many extreme Liberals, and have found minds just as closed, and I have also been able to open most of them too, (although here I have found more resistance here to separating us from LGBT, go figure...Yes, to me the left is more closed, probably because in indoctrination in school.)

The key to it all has been to be respectful, gentle and gracious. LISTEN to their opinions, don't make fun of them, don't condemn them, don't act like some jackass male who knows it all (Something I still do on occasion). Be a gentle and gracious person, it's a wonderful trait, and people almost always respond positively to it (Note to self: If you practiced this more with mom, you might see better results).

Some minds are closed permanently, but actually their number is quite few when you practice the love that you profess.

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

I didn't think I'd be mad enough to engage you again Krazy Kat.
I neither like nor dislike trans-sexual people. I am wise enough to admit I know nothing about that subject. Only fools attack that which they do not understand.
If this is who you are, then this is who you are, and if it cannot be changed, ( or you have no desire to change should change be possible) you must be accepted....just as one accepts all aspects of nature.
As I remember..... Thoreau, and a few friends were once watching a powerful night storm......thunder clapping, lightening flashing, winds howling, etc. and one of the members of that group...no doubt hoping to sound expansive said: "Ah I accept nature"..to which Thoreau responded: "Well by God you'd better !".
One must accept certain things...but one must also combat that which is unnatural and intolerable...in this case your viscous attacks on all of Islam, and blind support of Israel.
Baba

---

Please, stop with the name calling. Normally I'd take "Krazy Kat" as a compliment, but I don't get the feeling you meant it that way.

This coming from the same person who so rudely doubted that I have been injured by a Palestinian bomb (Thanks again for making me relive that...).

As far as blindly supporting Israel, and universally condemning Islam, I have done neither, I have simply set forth the facts of the matter. These can be summed up as follows:

Israel has been the most attacked country in history, and in fact it's simply atrocious the number of PLO bombings that have happened in the last 20 years. Israel has tried over and over to negotiate with the PLO, and the PLO has again and again walked from the negotiations and resumed their bombing campaign. srael has behaved far better than Islam in their conflicts.

Islam's central precept is a totally Muslim World at any cost.

I have never said that Israel has behaved perfectly, and I have never said that every Palestinian is a bad person. The closest thing I have said to that, is (again) the central precept of Islam is a goal of a totally Muslim planet, and that otherwise peaceful Muslims share this belief with their more sociopathic members.

I'll add to this the simple fact that EVERYBODY wishes the World would operate on their terms, but most people don't believe that those who disagree with them should be killed if they will not convert.
Again, I don't profess to have an answer to this problem, because I don't see that there can be peace unless one of three completely improbable things happens:

1) Everybody converts to Islam
2) Islam exterminates all the Infidels
3) Islam decides they don't need to control the World, and starts getting along with everybody else (and not because they fear them).

As I note, there are what we call Muslims who don't believe in World domination, but they are not accepted by either the Sunni or the Shia, and are thus considered to be Muslim by neither.

Back to my favorite phrase: Go figure

BTW: You owe me an apology for behaving like an asshole as per your comments about my experiences in Israel, Your rudeness, name calling, implying I am a liar, malicious taunting and general lack of respect is beyond the pale, and you earned every bit of anger in my response. I have forgiven your rudeness and general lack of decency, but it's not forgotten.

You further compound it by again resorting to yet again calling me names.

I ask you: Is this how you behave when you don't agree with someone, but can't come up with any solid logic to support your position, because it's the mark of a sociopath.

May I respectfully suggest some therapy.

I did not make you relive anything Kat....you were quite willing to give an over abundance of detail with out the least provocation.
It's that over abundance of detail which leads me to believe nothing you say is true.
It's fairly obvious who needs therapy here, and it's not me.
Krazy Kat is a cartoon character from the 30's who was always throwing bricks. If you find that characterization insulting o.k....I'll apologize for that.
But certainly not for anything else.
Baba

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen the KAT:

Please, stop with the name calling. Normally I'd take "Krazy Kat" as a compliment, but I don't get the feeling you meant it that way.

This coming from the same person who so rudely doubted that I have been injured by a Palestinian bomb (Thanks again for making me relive that...).

As far as blindly supporting Israel, and universally condemning Islam, I have done neither, I have simply set forth the facts of the matter. These can be summed up as follows:

Israel has been the most attacked country in history, and in fact it's simply atrocious the number of PLO bombings that have happened in the last 20 years. Israel has tried over and over to negotiate with the PLO, and the PLO has again and again walked from the negotiations and resumed their bombing campaign. srael has behaved far better than Islam in their conflicts.

Islam's central precept is a totally Muslim World at any cost.

I have never said that Israel has behaved perfectly, and I have never said that every Palestinian is a bad person. The closest thing I have said to that, is (again) the central precept of Islam is a goal of a totally Muslim planet, and that otherwise peaceful Muslims share this belief with their more sociopathic members.

I'll add to this the simple fact that EVERYBODY wishes the World would operate on their terms, but most people don't believe that those who disagree with them should be killed if they will not convert.
Again, I don't profess to have an answer to this problem, because I don't see that there can be peace unless one of three completely improbable things happens:

1) Everybody converts to Islam
2) Islam exterminates all the Infidels
3) Islam decides they don't need to control the World, and starts getting along with everybody else (and not because they fear them).

As I note, there are what we call Muslims who don't believe in World domination, but they are not accepted by either the Sunni or the Shia, and are thus considered to be Muslim by neither.

Back to my favorite phrase: Go figure

BTW: You owe me an apology for behaving like an asshole as per your comments about my experiences in Israel, Your rudeness, name calling, implying I am a liar, malicious taunting and general lack of respect is beyond the pale, and you earned every bit of anger in my response. I have forgiven your rudeness and general lack of decency, but it's not forgotten.

You further compound it by again resorting to yet again calling me names.

I ask you: Is this how you behave when you don't agree with someone, but can't come up with any solid logic to support your position, because it's the mark of a sociopath.

May I respectfully suggest some therapy.

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by babaruss:

I did not make you relive anything Kat....you were quite willing to give an over abundance of detail with out the least provocation.
It's that over abundance of detail which leads me to believe nothing you say is true.
It's fairly obvious who needs therapy here, and it's not me.
Krazy Kat is a cartoon character from the 30's who was always throwing bricks. If you find that characterization insulting o.k....I'll apologize for that.
But certainly not for anything else.
Baba

---

Who can discuss anything with you. I don't give you enough details, I'm lying, I give you detail, I'm lying. Sounds completely pre-judged as to me, as in prejudiced.

Your rudeness knows no bounds.

I gave you details because I thought it might make you a little more human, it's not something I really wanted to do, it's not something I like to relive. As you can see, it's a hurtful memory to me.

You contradict yourself: You say I relived it, but you say it's not true. How can both be true?

Hey, I don't care if you believe it, it doesn't change the fact that it happened (Just like your Thoreau story in an isometric way, but it does make the whole thing a waste of my energy and emotion.

Thanks for that too, you're a real winner

Your mind is Soooo closed, it's amazing to me.

If you don't like a truth, you just deny it, and clim the other person is a liar. Obama should hire you to write his speeches...

I know who Krazy Kat is, and yes, I took it as you meant it.

All I can say is WOW....

Some thoughts on this tormented thread:

>>>you could at least read an old copy of the Koran (before they started to print special versions for Westerners).
Is it the case, then, that people who believe so literally in the authority of the Koran have put out an edition that intentionally distorts the Koran? I would have thought extremist Muslims would kill them for having done so.
If there's a concrete source for this information, it suggests to me the same kind of controversy over intention and translation that besets Biblical translators, undoubtedly driven in part by political or religious biases but also by serious scholarly-based differences. But in that case there would seem to be some disunity among the Elders of Islam.

>>>For the umpteenth time: Read the Bloody Koran... (and bloody it is) >>>Islam's central precept is a totally Muslim World at any cost.

And I've also read the Pentateuch & Old Testament. From these I glean the information that all Jews are required to stone to death homosexuals, disobedient children, adulterers, and a considerable number of the population of Sonoma County; that if God so orders, they are to annihilate every non-Jewish man, woman, and child in cities they claim as theirs; that they are especially Chosen among all races on Earth... etc. Now, the Jews I know aren't like that at all, so I guess there must be a few exceptions.
True that Judaism isn't a "universal" religion in the same sense as Christianity or Islam and hence doesn't have the same long, bloody history of aggression.

>>>Well actually the Jews DON'T strap bombs to the backs of their children or fire rockets indiscriminately into urban areas like the Palestinians do, That's called terrorism.

Terrorism is a tactic used by people with political objectives but without the armaments required by conventional warfare. Getting blown up by a rocket fired indiscriminately by Hamas or discriminately by the Israelis wasting the inhabitants of a building to possibly kill one guy -- well, I'd call either one pretty terrifying.
There was a post on this thread at some point asking for instances where Western powers used terroristic methods in "non-warfare" situations. Do I understand, then, that irebombing Tokyo, Dresden, and dozens of Japanese cities prior to Hiroshima isn't terrorism because it's in a war that we've declared? To Hamas et al, it's a war whether or not Israel chooses to declare it so, and they use the means they have.
Horrible means, I agree.

>>>I never said there was a way to peace, in fact I said the complete opposite; There will never be peace until one party is annihilated.

It seems to me that that's the premise that keeps the extremists of both sides in power, certainly what resulted in the assassination of Rabin. The only logical implication is extermination. As Col. Chivington said before Sand Creek, "Nits make lice."
But I'm afraid that I agree with the assessment that it's very hard to see a way out. Israel has been pushed further and further into a South African-style siege mentality -- both by Palestinian violence and by the Greater Israel faction who won't settle for anything less than the boundaries of David's empire. And the Palestinians will not give up. Maybe in 50 years they'll come to a compromise, as has sorta happened in Northern Ireland, if there's not an atomic war first.
And for better or worse, Israel has become America's 51st state, though the only one with an independent army and foreign policy. I do worry about that, though maybe that's only because I'm one of those naive Leftists.

Peace & joy, or fear & trembling, as you wish--
Conrad

Great post, and don't forget, the bible says good Jews should beat their uppity slaves, even to the point of death!

"Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."

--Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America
What the Bible says about slavery

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:

Some thoughts on this tormented thread:

>>>you could at least read an old copy of the Koran (before they started to print special versions for Westerners).
Is it the case, then, that people who believe so literally in the authority of the Koran have put out an edition that intentionally distorts the Koran? I would have thought extremist Muslims would kill them for having done so.
If there's a concrete source for this information, it suggests to me the same kind of controversy over intention and translation that besets Biblical translators, undoubtedly driven in part by political or religious biases but also by serious scholarly-based differences. But in that case there would seem to be some disunity among the Elders of Islam.

>>>For the umpteenth time: Read the Bloody Koran... (and bloody it is) >>>Islam's central precept is a totally Muslim World at any cost.

And I've also read the Pentateuch & Old Testament. From these I glean the information that all Jews are required to stone to death homosexuals, disobedient children, adulterers, and a considerable number of the population of Sonoma County; that if God so orders, they are to annihilate every non-Jewish man, woman, and child in cities they claim as theirs; that they are especially Chosen among all races on Earth... etc. Now, the Jews I know aren't like that at all, so I guess there must be a few exceptions.
True that Judaism isn't a "universal" religion in the same sense as Christianity or Islam and hence doesn't have the same long, bloody history of aggression.

>>>Well actually the Jews DON'T strap bombs to the backs of their children or fire rockets indiscriminately into urban areas like the Palestinians do, That's called terrorism.

Terrorism is a tactic used by people with political objectives but without the armaments required by conventional warfare. Getting blown up by a rocket fired indiscriminately by Hamas or discriminately by the Israelis wasting the inhabitants of a building to possibly kill one guy -- well, I'd call either one pretty terrifying.
There was a post on this thread at some point asking for instances where Western powers used terroristic methods in "non-warfare" situations. Do I understand, then, that irebombing Tokyo, Dresden, and dozens of Japanese cities prior to Hiroshima isn't terrorism because it's in a war that we've declared? To Hamas et al, it's a war whether or not Israel chooses to declare it so, and they use the means they have.
Horrible means, I agree.

>>>I never said there was a way to peace, in fact I said the complete opposite; There will never be peace until one party is annihilated.

It seems to me that that's the premise that keeps the extremists of both sides in power, certainly what resulted in the assassination of Rabin. The only logical implication is extermination. As Col. Chivington said before Sand Creek, "Nits make lice."
But I'm afraid that I agree with the assessment that it's very hard to see a way out. Israel has been pushed further and further into a South African-style siege mentality -- both by Palestinian violence and by the Greater Israel faction who won't settle for anything less than the boundaries of David's empire. And the Palestinians will not give up. Maybe in 50 years they'll come to a compromise, as has sorta happened in Northern Ireland, if there's not an atomic war first.
And for better or worse, Israel has become America's 51st state, though the only one with an independent army and foreign policy. I do worry about that, though maybe that's only because I'm one of those naive Leftists.

Peace & joy, or fear & trembling, as you wish--
Conrad

---

The abused child grows up to be an abusive adult. Is that relevant to what is happening in Israel? Noam Chomski doesnt answer that question but he knows his history and has a valuable P.O.V.
Kat, this is especially 4 u.

The Real Threat Aboard the Freedom Flotilla

By Noam Chomsky

June 08, 2010 "In These Times" - -Israel’s violent attack on the Freedom Flotilla carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza shocked the world.

Hijacking boats in international waters and killing passengers is, of course, a serious crime.

But the crime is nothing new. For decades, Israel has been hijacking boats between Cyprus and Lebanon and killing or kidnapping passengers, sometimes holding them hostage in Israeli prisons.

Israel assumes that it can commit such crimes with impunity because the United States tolerates them and Europe generally follows the U.S.’s lead.

As the editors of The Guardian rightly observed on June 1, “If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a NATO task force would today be heading for the Somali coast.” In this case, the NATO treaty obligates its members to come to the aid of a fellow NATO country—Turkey—attacked on the high seas.

Israel’s pretext for the attack was that the Freedom Flotilla was bringing materials that Hamas could use for bunkers to fire rockets into Israel.

The pretext isn’t credible. Israel can easily end the threat of rockets by peaceful means.

The background is important. Hamas was designated a major terrorist threat when it won a free election in January 2006. The U.S. and Israel sharply escalated their punishment of Palestinians, now for the crime of voting the wrong way.

The siege of Gaza, including a naval blockade, was a result. The siege intensified sharply in June 2007 after a civil war left Hamas in control of the territory.

What is commonly described as a Hamas military coup was in fact incited by the U.S. and Israel, in a crude attempt to overturn the elections that had brought Hamas to power.

That has been public knowledge at least since April 2008, when David Rose reported in Vanity Fair that George W. Bush, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and her deputy, Elliott Abrams, “backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.”

Hamas terror included launching rockets into nearby Israeli towns—criminal, without a doubt, though only a minute fraction of routine U.S.-Israeli crimes in Gaza.

In June 2008, Israel and Hamas reached a cease-fire agreement. The Israeli government formally acknowledges that until Israel broke the agreement on Nov. 4 of that year, invading Gaza and killing half a dozen Hamas activists, Hamas did not fire a single rocket.

Hamas offered to renew the cease-fire. The Israeli cabinet considered the offer and rejected it, preferring to launch its murderous invasion of Gaza on Dec.27.

Like other states, Israel has the right of self-defense. But did Israel have the right to use force in Gaza in the name of self-defense? International law, including the U.N. Charter, is unambiguous: A nation has such a right only if it has exhausted peaceful means. In this case such means were not even tried, although—or perhaps because—there was every reason to suppose that they would succeed.

Thus the invasion was sheer criminal aggression, and the same is true of Israel’s resorting to force against the flotilla.

The siege is savage, designed to keep the caged animals barely alive so as to fend off international protest, but hardly more than that. It is the latest stage of longstanding Israeli plans, backed by the U.S., to separate Gaza from the West Bank.

The Israeli journalist Amira Hass, a leading specialist on Gaza, outlines the history of the process of separation: “The restrictions on Palestinian movement that Israel introduced in January 1991 reversed a process that had been initiated in June 1967.

“Back then, and for the first time since 1948, a large portion of the Palestinian people again lived in the open territory of a single country — to be sure, one that was occupied, but was nevertheless whole. …”

Hass concludes: “The total separation of the Gaza Strip from the West Bank is one of the greatest achievements of Israeli politics, whose overarching objective is to prevent a solution based on international decisions and understandings and instead dictate an arrangement based on Israel’s military superiority.”

The Freedom Flotilla defied that policy and so it must be crushed.

A framework for settling the Arab-Israeli conflict has existed since 1976, when the regional Arab States introduced a Security Council resolution calling for a two-state settlement on the international border, including all the security guarantees of U.N. Resolution 242, adopted after the June War in 1967.

The essential principles are supported by virtually the entire world, including the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic States (including Iran) and relevant non-state actors, including Hamas.

But the U.S. and Israel have led the rejection of such a settlement for three decades, with one crucial and highly informative exception. In President Bill Clinton’s last month in office, January 2001, he initiated Israeli-Palestinian negotiations in Taba, Egypt, that almost reached an agreement, participants announced, before Israel terminated the negotiations.

Today, the cruel legacy of a failed peace lives on.

International law cannot be enforced against powerful states, except by their own citizens. That is always a difficult task, particularly when articulate opinion declares crime to be legitimate, either explicitly or by tacit adoption of a criminal framework—which is more insidious, because it renders the crimes invisible.

hi karen - i was just reading this article a bit ago. very insightful. thanks for posting such an astute point of view. the whole flotilla tragedy is difficult to deal with still. i participated in three demonstrations in sf last week. rousing and heartbreaking at the same time. hopefully it will turn out to be the exposure that israel cannot recover from.

kind regards,
pnicholson

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen:

The abused child grows up to be an abusive adult. Is that relevant to what is happening in Israel? Noam Chomski doesnt answer that question but he knows his history and has a valuable P.O.V.
Kat, this is especially 4 u.

The Real Threat Aboard the Freedom Flotilla

By Noam Chomsky

June 08, 2010 "In These Times" - -Israel’s violent attack on the Freedom Flotilla carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza shocked the world.

Hijacking boats in international waters and killing passengers is, of course, a serious crime.

But the crime is nothing new. For decades, Israel has been hijacking boats between Cyprus and Lebanon and killing or kidnapping passengers, sometimes holding them hostage in Israeli prisons.

Israel assumes that it can commit such crimes with impunity because the United States tolerates them and Europe generally follows the U.S.’s lead.

As the editors of The Guardian rightly observed on June 1, “If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a NATO task force would today be heading for the Somali coast.” In this case, the NATO treaty obligates its members to come to the aid of a fellow NATO country—Turkey—attacked on the high seas.

Israel’s pretext for the attack was that the Freedom Flotilla was bringing materials that Hamas could use for bunkers to fire rockets into Israel.

The pretext isn’t credible. Israel can easily end the threat of rockets by peaceful means.

The background is important. Hamas was designated a major terrorist threat when it won a free election in January 2006. The U.S. and Israel sharply escalated their punishment of Palestinians, now for the crime of voting the wrong way.

The siege of Gaza, including a naval blockade, was a result. The siege intensified sharply in June 2007 after a civil war left Hamas in control of the territory.

What is commonly described as a Hamas military coup was in fact incited by the U.S. and Israel, in a crude attempt to overturn the elections that had brought Hamas to power.

That has been public knowledge at least since April 2008, when David Rose reported in Vanity Fair that George W. Bush, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and her deputy, Elliott Abrams, “backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.”

Hamas terror included launching rockets into nearby Israeli towns—criminal, without a doubt, though only a minute fraction of routine U.S.-Israeli crimes in Gaza.

In June 2008, Israel and Hamas reached a cease-fire agreement. The Israeli government formally acknowledges that until Israel broke the agreement on Nov. 4 of that year, invading Gaza and killing half a dozen Hamas activists, Hamas did not fire a single rocket.

Hamas offered to renew the cease-fire. The Israeli cabinet considered the offer and rejected it, preferring to launch its murderous invasion of Gaza on Dec.27.

Like other states, Israel has the right of self-defense. But did Israel have the right to use force in Gaza in the name of self-defense? International law, including the U.N. Charter, is unambiguous: A nation has such a right only if it has exhausted peaceful means. In this case such means were not even tried, although—or perhaps because—there was every reason to suppose that they would succeed.

Thus the invasion was sheer criminal aggression, and the same is true of Israel’s resorting to force against the flotilla.

The siege is savage, designed to keep the caged animals barely alive so as to fend off international protest, but hardly more than that. It is the latest stage of longstanding Israeli plans, backed by the U.S., to separate Gaza from the West Bank.

The Israeli journalist Amira Hass, a leading specialist on Gaza, outlines the history of the process of separation: “The restrictions on Palestinian movement that Israel introduced in January 1991 reversed a process that had been initiated in June 1967.

“Back then, and for the first time since 1948, a large portion of the Palestinian people again lived in the open territory of a single country — to be sure, one that was occupied, but was nevertheless whole. …”

Hass concludes: “The total separation of the Gaza Strip from the West Bank is one of the greatest achievements of Israeli politics, whose overarching objective is to prevent a solution based on international decisions and understandings and instead dictate an arrangement based on Israel’s military superiority.”

The Freedom Flotilla defied that policy and so it must be crushed.

A framework for settling the Arab-Israeli conflict has existed since 1976, when the regional Arab States introduced a Security Council resolution calling for a two-state settlement on the international border, including all the security guarantees of U.N. Resolution 242, adopted after the June War in 1967.

The essential principles are supported by virtually the entire world, including the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic States (including Iran) and relevant non-state actors, including Hamas.

But the U.S. and Israel have led the rejection of such a settlement for three decades, with one crucial and highly informative exception. In President Bill Clinton’s last month in office, January 2001, he initiated Israeli-Palestinian negotiations in Taba, Egypt, that almost reached an agreement, participants announced, before Israel terminated the negotiations.

Today, the cruel legacy of a failed peace lives on.

International law cannot be enforced against powerful states, except by their own citizens. That is always a difficult task, particularly when articulate opinion declares crime to be legitimate, either explicitly or by tacit adoption of a criminal framework—which is more insidious, because it renders the crimes invisible.

---

Eyewitness Report

Countering Israeli Propaganda

* Countering Israeli Propaganda* : ICH - Information Clearing House

Great BBC interview!

BTW, Barry, why is this in the censored section? This information shouldnt be suppressed.
Thanks for your reply.
Karen

hi karen. i watched this interview and it is very good. i did watch it again here and i am glad that you posted it. thanks. i too wondered why it is in the censored area. i thought it was okay to talk about israel now. there has been so much exposure lately it is a little late to try and censor conversation or criticism. israel israel israel israel israel israel. see? nothing happened. it really is okay. in fact it is absolutely vital.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Karen:

Eyewitness Report

Countering Israeli Propaganda

* Countering Israeli Propaganda* : ICH - Information Clearing House

Great BBC interview!

BTW, Barry, why is this in the censored section? This information shouldnt be suppressed.
Thanks for your reply.
Karen

---

Hey Karen and PNicholsen,

(I can imagine readers here thinking, "MadMiles?!, again? Why can't he just STFU and let others have a say!!!")

Anyway, if you read the early part of this thread, you'll see Barry's post explaining why he moved it to Censored&Un-Censored, things got "too heated".

One way around this would be to post it as a new thread starter.

I'm often amused about how threads from two or three or four years ago, get renewed by additions, often by new "wacoons" (Love it too!). The "To Kill A Mockingbird" debate that came back to haunt us, is one example. Maybe we need a thread listing the perennial topics found here?

Waccobb.net, where conversations never finish and arguments from years ago can be renewed at will!

(Barry, if this slogan goes on the banner I want credit and a cut of the moolah... Just sayin')

Cheers,

I don't really understand what is meant by "too heated". Apartheid and genocide are difficult topics but as taxpayers and citizens of the USA, we are all complicit in this travesty of justice. We need to understand both sides very well to see that a just resolution is found.
How can words online be too heated? People may become too heated and maybe Barry was feeling too heated but words are just characters on a screen. I urge a rational discussion of the facts here. Calm down, try to understand what is going on in Palestine from a Palestinian perspective before you make a decision. (hint: You wont find the Palesitnians' P.O.V. on CNN.)

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles:

Hey Karen and PNicholsen,

(I can imagine readers here thinking, "MadMiles?!, again? Why can't he just STFU and let others have a say!!!")

Anyway, if you read the early part of this thread, you'll see Barry's post explaining why he moved it to Censored&Un-Censored, things got "too heated".

One way around this would be to post it as a new thread starter.

I'm often amused about how threads from two or three or four years ago, get renewed by additions, often by new "wacoons" (Love it too!). The "To Kill A Mockingbird" debate that came back to haunt us, is one example. Maybe we need a thread listing the perennial topics found here?

Waccobb.net, where conversations never finish and arguments from years ago can be renewed at will!

(Barry, if this slogan goes on the banner I want credit and a cut of the moolah... Just sayin')

Cheers,

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen:

I don't really understand what is meant by "too heated". Apartheid and genocide are difficult topics but as taxpayers and citizens of the USA, we are all complicit in this travesty of justice. We need to understand both sides very well to see that a just resolution is found.

---

Karen,

I agree with you, except.

Did you read Karen the KAT's early posts on this thread? They are highly volatile, racist, zenophobic. And replies to her were almost as combative. So Barry moved it to C&Un-C.

If I moderated this board she would have been booted and her posts dumped into oblivion. There's no way they comply with the requirement to be respectful and "conscious" here. Except that I'm a historian so I think the record should be preserved, if only to document the crazed views of some on this issue.

Given the conflict itself, and the risks to all involved (nukes, oil, human rights, etc.) it's no surprise that opinions get heated. Yes, we need to discuss it. As respectfully, rationally and productively as possible. But with history like this, don't get your hopes up!

Again, if you don't want your contribution to be in the C&Un-C category, just put it in a new thread. It's quite easy, and your post won't carry the burden of shit disturbance from this thread.

I started this thread a long time ago. I was surprised and delighted when years later, it drew out a vocal Zionist for us to examine. I think that was highly instructive, don't you? I love the title of this thread which is also a very illuminating website, btw. In the interest of continuity, i'm going to continue posting my responses here. Too bad it cant be two places at once.

To answer your question, no i didnt read much more than a paragraph or two of Kat's. That's all I wanted, actually. I havent read 95% of the thread to this day. Tell me, did any of the following data come up in the thread?
(fromhttps://www.ifamericansknew.org/)

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed September 29, 2000 - Present
124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)	https://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/children.gif

Israelis and Palestinians Killed September 29, 2000 - Present
https://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/deaths-index.gif	1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured September 29, 2000 - Present
8,864 Israelis and 39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information.) Unfortunately, our sources have not updated these statistics in quite some time. We are working to find more up-to-date sources.	https://www.ifamericansknew.org/imag...ries-index.gif

Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel and the Palestinians Fiscal Year 2009
https://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/usaid.gif	During Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians. (View Sources & More Information)

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians 1955 - 1992
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Sources & More Information)	https://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/un.gif

Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees
https://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/prisoners.gif	1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Sources & More Information)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes 1967 - Present
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. (View Sources & More Information)	https://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/homes.gif

Current Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land
Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Sources & More Information)	https://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/settlemnts.gif

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles:

Karen,

I agree with you, except.

Did you read Karen the KAT's early posts on this thread? They are highly volatile, racist, zenophobic. And replies to her were almost as combative. So Barry moved it to C&Un-C.

If I moderated this board she would have been booted and her posts dumped into oblivion. There's no way they comply with the requirement to be respectful and "conscious" here. Except that I'm a historian so I think the record should be preserved, if only to document the crazed views of some on this issue.

Given the conflict itself, and the risks to all involved (nukes, oil, human rights, etc.) it's no surprise that opinions get heated. Yes, we need to discuss it. As respectfully, rationally and productively as possible. But with history like this, don't get your hopes up!

Again, if you don't want your contribution to be in the C&Un-C category, just put it in a new thread. It's quite easy, and your post won't carry the burden of shit disturbance from this thread.

---

[quote=Karen;117066...Tell me, did any of the following data come up in the thread? ...[/quote]

Nope. At least not in such graphically, well displayed detail. Thanks for the resource.

I learned something last night. Since the 1980's it has been illegal for any tax reporting U.S. entity to boycott Israel. Apparently it's called the Ribicoff Amendment. The BDS movement (a term I only recently learned, I'm not as connected as I thought, back in the day we just referred to our South Africa anti-apartheid movement as "divestment") hasn't been advertising that fact.

I haven't looked it up and read the details, but if you're on the board of, say the Sacramento Food Coop like my sister, and being asked to withdraw funds from Israel, it turns out to be important to know!

It doesn't apply to individual consumer boycotts.

...

Here it is, half an hour later. Just read this:

Occupied Palestine: Good News and Bad

Lendman sure has a beef with the PA (see the end of his compilation) but this is a good summary of recent developments.

Thanks for telling me about the Ribicoff amendment. We are inextricably linked to Israel and all they do.

Thank you for the great website, Global BDS Movement , too! I encourage other people check it out.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles:

Nope. At least not in such graphically, well displayed detail. Thanks for the resource.

I learned something last night. Since the 1980's it has been illegal for any tax reporting U.S. entity to boycott Israel. Apparently it's called the Ribicoff Amendment. The BDS movement (a term I only recently learned, I'm not as connected as I thought, back in the day we just referred to our South Africa anti-apartheid movement as "divestment") hasn't been advertising that fact.

I haven't looked it up and read the details, but if you're on the board of, say the Sacramento Coop like my sister, and being asked to withdraw funds from Israel, it turns out to be important to know!

It doesn't apply to individual consumer boycotts.

---

this is what I like to see! :thumbsup:


Will a “Jewish Flotilla” Break the Gaza Blockade?

(Thankfully, Kat,
...the “Jewish community” doesn’t walk in lockstep...)

JERUSALEM (JTA) — A coalition of international Jewish organizations sympathetic to the Palestinians will send a flotilla to Gaza to try to break Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-run strip.
The “Jewish Boat to Gaza” will sail next month from an undisclosed location carrying passengers from the United States, Germany and Britain. At least one passenger is reported to be a Holocaust survivor.
American Jews for a Just Peace announced last week that it will serve as the U.S. coordinator for the Jewish boat. The other groups participating in the flotilla include “Judische Stimme” (”Jewish Voice” for a Just Peace in the Near East) and Jews for Justice for Palestinians, a British organization.
Glyn Secker, a British Jew and a longtime activist, will serve as captain. No weapons will be on board, according to the American Jews for a Just Peace website.
“Organizers are requesting that the Israeli government, the British government, the German government and the Obama Administration guarantee safe passage for the boat, its passengers and cargo,” according to the announcement.
The boat will take schoolbags and books, donated by German schoolchildren; musical instruments and art materials for the Gaza Community Mental Health Program; nets and tackle for fishermen; and medicines and small medical equipment.
According to the website, the principles of the mission are “To protest against and challenge the blockade of Gaza”; “to protest against Israel’s continuing occupation and settlement of Palestinian land, and the Israeli government’s self-evident intention of annexing much of that land”; and “to make clear that the current policies of Israel are not representative of all Jews and that there are thousands of us who wish to say ‘Not in our name.’”

This would not only be a difficult convoy for the Israeli government to handle aggressively but it would also serve as a powerful symbol that the “Jewish community” doesn’t walk in lockstep — that there is a vast gulf separating Jews who believe in self-governance and the principle of universal human rights and “pro-Israel’ hawks.

well, this should be an interesting development. with all the world watching....

i hope it does happen. i hope they do not back down. i can understand why iran backed down, but i think the flotillas need to keep coming. and this would be an exceptionally significant passenger list.

safety and success beyond expectations to this and other endeavors to free palestine.

thank you, karen.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Karen:

this is what I like to see! :thumbsup:


Will a “Jewish Flotilla” Break the Gaza Blockade?

(Thankfully, Kat,
...the “Jewish community” doesn’t walk in lockstep...)

JERUSALEM (JTA) — A coalition of international Jewish organizations sympathetic to the Palestinians will send a flotilla to Gaza to try to break Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-run strip.
The “Jewish Boat to Gaza” will sail next month from an undisclosed location carrying passengers from the United States, Germany and Britain. At least one passenger is reported to be a Holocaust survivor.
American Jews for a Just Peace announced last week that it will serve as the U.S. coordinator for the Jewish boat. The other groups participating in the flotilla include “Judische Stimme” (”Jewish Voice” for a Just Peace in the Near East) and Jews for Justice for Palestinians, a British organization.
Glyn Secker, a British Jew and a longtime activist, will serve as captain. No weapons will be on board, according to the American Jews for a Just Peace website.
“Organizers are requesting that the Israeli government, the British government, the German government and the Obama Administration guarantee safe passage for the boat, its passengers and cargo,” according to the announcement.
The boat will take schoolbags and books, donated by German schoolchildren; musical instruments and art materials for the Gaza Community Mental Health Program; nets and tackle for fishermen; and medicines and small medical equipment.
According to the website, the principles of the mission are “To protest against and challenge the blockade of Gaza”; “to protest against Israel’s continuing occupation and settlement of Palestinian land, and the Israeli government’s self-evident intention of annexing much of that land”; and “to make clear that the current policies of Israel are not representative of all Jews and that there are thousands of us who wish to say ‘Not in our name.’”

This would not only be a difficult convoy for the Israeli government to handle aggressively but it would also serve as a powerful symbol that the “Jewish community” doesn’t walk in lockstep — that there is a vast gulf separating Jews who believe in self-governance and the principle of universal human rights and “pro-Israel’ hawks.

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I found Nicholas Kristof's column in today's PD to be pretty good. It's about the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

I am a big fan of his, because he's the only major U.S. commentator consistently defending human rights around the world, exposing the most egregious violations and exploring viable solutions to Third World development problems.

Recently on waccobb.net he was derided for being, "just a biased journalist," (my paraphrase) I found that ridiculous since the only bias I can find in his work is as a humanist. What a terrible form of discrimination!?

I guess that would make him a speciesist, except I recall him addressing threats to the African Wild Dog, so even that charge doesn't hold up.