redwood trees and depression

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

I can't confirm the science of "chemical secretion". I have been told that in the winter during the rains, the Pomo, Miwok and other tribes north of here, would not live in the Redwoods, and thought they were evil at that time.

Pure speculation here, but Black Mold is known to cause health problems, including depression. And damp, dark, cool, conditions promote its growth. That's why it is a problem, in the winter, for homes that don't get enough sunlight.

That's all I can recall.

My theory is that the dark shade of the redwoods exacerbate SAD (seasonal affective disorder). Not much light down there on the forest floor, even in summer. I am "blessed" with redwoods and I'm thinking of buying a light box to use next winter

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

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I heard about this back in the early 70's. I was living at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, it was guest season, and a man visited from Albion who said that he was feeling much better after getting out of the redwoods. He said that the California Native Ams. did not live in the redwoods & believed that they were inhabited by negative spirits. I have also heard that redwoods emit something toxic that prevents other trees from growing around them, this I heard from a naturalist. Barrie

Sylph you may be right about the darkness exacerbating SAD.

I found something interesting. The bark of all types of Redwoods countains about 70 % tannins.

"Redwoods cast deep shade and shed tannin-loaded duff, a combination that inhibits plants and repels insects."

https://www.metroactive.com/papers/c...ugs1-0139.html

According to the article about the only creature that scavenges the Redwood forest litter is the banana slug. The other animals don't eat these banana slugs, even when they are starving due to their tannin-loaded composition. Also, according to the article there is a lack of birds due to the insect repelling nature of the redwoods. This is also how the redwoods discourage competition from other plants. (This would also be a mold-inhibitor.)

So, I'm wondering if the high concentration of natural insecticide/herbicide also affects humans. These compounds are water soluble. Pure conjecture, maybe they are breathed in along with the misty air.

That's all I found. Just some thoughts.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barrie:

I heard about this back in the early 70's. I was living at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, it was guest season, and a man visited from Albion who said that he was feeling much better after getting out of the redwoods. He said that the California Native Ams. did not live in the redwoods & believed that they were inhabited by negative spirits. I have also heard that redwoods emit something toxic that prevents other trees from growing around them, this I heard from a naturalist. Barrie

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greetings, beings~

i have always felt a deep embrace, a cradling when in the midst of a redwood grove. many a time, i have felt safe enough to cry and let go when in their shadows. i'm not sure what "depression" is being defined as, but if it has anything to do with facing the sadness and unresolved shadows that live in us, i can imagine the redwoods' powerful mirroring and presence would put us in touch with that, which may feel "depressing." just my opinion, i think the "depression" felt is something that is already present, and allowed to be felt in such deep and tranquil places.

blessings~raven

I live about a 1/4 mile from Armstrong Redwoods Park. It is a very special place for me. I like to ride my bike there as well as hiking to certain spots that are like being in a great temple.
It helps me to get centered and I agree with sabathmaiden about the possibility of being in the presence of such giants of nature can be at least humbling which some people might interpret in various ways including a type of depressive mode.:Yinyangv:

Depression is defined as "Anger turned inward".

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Posted in reply to the post by sabbathmaiden:

greetings, beings~

i have always felt a deep embrace, a cradling when in the midst of a redwood grove. many a time, i have felt safe enough to cry and let go when in their shadows. i'm not sure what "depression" is being defined as, but if it has anything to do with facing the sadness and unresolved shadows that live in us, i can imagine the redwoods' powerful mirroring and presence would put us in touch with that, which may feel "depressing." just my opinion, i think the "depression" felt is something that is already present, and allowed to be felt in such deep and tranquil places.

blessings~raven

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Photolite,

Anger turned inward = depression. No doubt!

For those of who responded to a query about toxins secreted by redwoods, by responding with accounts of the surcease you gain from visiting them, me too. The beauty, quiet, peace and joy to be gained is palpable. But the replies about toxins were related to living among them, not just visiting them. I may have misinterpreted the question, but I thought it implied that too. That the concern was about long term exposure.

It's a particular form of New Age love bombing to reinterpret concerns about or claims of depression, as misinterpreted experiences of solitude, being humbled, etc.

Please investigate the psychological concept of projection, and reducing others pain, by only viewing it through the window of your own experience. I believe you wanted to be helpful, but diminishing things you want to deny as real, but for others is very real, is not a good technique.

While experience is central to who we are, and how we interpret it has a lot to do with what we experience, not everything can be fixed by just thinking the right thoughts, and feeling the right feelings.

Sometimes there are cause for our negative emotions, and painful experiences, which cannot be changed, simply by changing our attitude. And those who profess that we can, come off as incredibly insensitive, and oblivious to the lived experience of others.

They also come off as deluded Pollyannas in denial of reality, as some, if not most, people know it.

Sometimes it's, not "all good!"

Not trying to put you down or make you feel guilty, just expressing my response to some of the more "positive" replies, which I perceive as completely missing the point of the question, and the subsequent discussion.

Barry asked me privately a few days ago if I was unusually testy. Perhaps. As I write this I am waiting for my emergency supply dinner to cook, since I missed the window of open restaurants after the KRSH Backyard this evening. Low blood sugar. But my response to this thread has been considered over the past few days, at least a little in the midst of the information tsunami I've been riding in that time.

Be Cool, Stay Strong!

Well, I posed the original question, and I suppose I was referring to living in the redwoods rather than just visiting them. I very much appreciated the pertinent data and stories a few people responded with. I found it interesting and helpful. I was wondering if there was more scientific info out there, specifically about redwoods and depression, but my sense now is that there probably is not.

I also appreciated Mad Miles's "testy" post, which I experienced as an indirect expression of support. I didn't mean to "personalize" my question, but I acknowledge that I was asking largely for myself (though I'm not depressed now, thanks), and one or two of the "redwood positive" responses did strike me as containing a subtext of "Deal with your stuff and stop blaming the trees." It also seemed to me that some people felt called upon to defend the poor redwoods from my potentially defaming question.

I wasn't disturbed by those posts; I figure people get triggered in various ways, and hey, chainsaws are a reality too. Who knows? Blame the redwoods for a bleak mood today, stand by while they clear cut tomorrow?

Anyway, thanks Mad Max for calling it on the new agey love bomb-y stuff. I think there was a little of that. I can't imagine, for example, why someone would post "depression is defined as anger turned inward" as if that tidbit might be remotely helpful to someone who's depressed, much less an answer to the question that began this thread. Sorry to pile on, Photolite, but what was your point?

Great discussion.

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

... I can't imagine, for example, why someone would post "depression is defined as anger turned inward" as if that tidbit might be remotely helpful to someone who's depressed, much less an answer to the question that began this thread. Sorry to pile on, Photolite, but what was your point?

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Photolite, was merely answering the "question" raised in a prior post, which he quoted: "i'm not sure what "depression" is being defined as,". The answer to that question is: depression is defined as anger towards inward. That simple answer is rather profound and true, IMO.

"as if that tidbit might be remotely helpful"
I have experienced a rather serious depression, as I am sure that a surprisingly large percentage of you have, too. :tear: For me, bringing awareness of that definition during that painful time, and seeing that it was true, was helpful . It didn't make it go away, but it began to create a chink in that oppressive structure. It was one important lifeline back to sanity and health.

ah. I see. Apologies to Photolite! :):

Hola Waccobbidlyboodlies!

After my last reply to this thread, a couple of my fellow board moderators contacted me privately by email expressing their concern about the force of my words. Their suggestions for moderating them were quite reasonable and I considered doing so. But those words are put out here already, and they were closely considered by me. So revision seems a bit tardy.

Instead I want to emphasize that anything and everything I write here is just my own opinion. I make no claims to universal truth. Nobody appointed me high arbiter of truth in waccobb-landia. I'm just speaking/writing on behalf of myself, and anybody who happens to agree with me. The latter part is on them/you, I am the only person responsible for what I write here. (And I guess Barry for providing the forum, for which I thank him/you once again!)

Here's the main part of what I wrote my fellow moderators at 11:35 p.m. yesterday:

On the issue of "I" statements versus general statements. That's both a stylistic and philosophical choice. "I, I, I, I, I" comes off as self involved and at the same time tentative. I start too many of my sentences with I and it gets monotonous. If I was writing for professional publication (i.e. Gettin' paid) I would work on varying things more. I try, but with all the other tweaking I do before posting, sometimes getting rid of the I's is too much effort.

When making statements about others, yes, it is best to be explicit that I am stating my own opinion.

But in reality, anything we say is always our opinion, and nobody else's. Not everybody reads it this way, but in writing I encourage my students to get away from the I and make categorical statements. They come off as stronger and more confident. Often when a novice writer starts every paragraph, every sentence, every claim with, "I believe" or "I think" or "In my opinion", I cross it out and make the sentence declarative without the self reference, and write in the margin, (We know, you wrote this.)

***********************

Sometimes my style of utterance has been interpreted as arrogant. If anyone reading this is firmly convinced that I am, well, I doubt there's much I can do at this point to change your mind.

But I'm a very self-critical person. And there have been substantial periods in my life where my constant self-scrutiny has led to emotional paralysis. Thankfully, with the help of family, friends and professionals I've learned to moderate my own inner critic.

As with Barry, I've been depressed at times. Dysthymia was my psychiatrists diagnosis. I do not, and have not felt that way for over a decade. But I haven't forgotten what it's like.

So, in part my previous response to this thread was prompted by those memories. Along with experiences I've had as an activist, dealing with others presuppositions and some with an unfortunate tendency to minimize the painful experiences of others.

But again, this is just my view, as always. It is not in any way a claim to universal truth. I find the idea of universal truth to be highly suspect, for many reasons, and it's not an area that I spend much time on when thinking about the human condition.

And finally, Keep those Damn Chainsaws away from our beloved Redwoods!!!!

Especially if you're a God Damned Socialist seeking to corrupt and destroy our sacred ways here in America (U.S.)!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

Hola Waccobbidlyboodlies!

After my last reply to this thread, a couple of my fellow board moderators contacted me privately by email expressing their concern about the force of my words.

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You know, I am surprised by this. I am very sensitive to flaming, and also find it absurd when people on discussion boards get all angry with each other for having differing opinions. Isn't that the whole point of discussion?

Honestly, MM's previous post didn't strike me at *all* as requiring interference from moderators, or any sort of admonishment--it was hardly as feisty as some of the things I've seen here in the past, and I hardly think feisty is a bad thing. I found it well-phrased and even
unnecessarily apologetic; even though I may not have agreed 100% with everything he said. That is my opinion, and I state it with the full knowledge that obviously others here have a different one.

I find it really puzzling that he was contacted by moderators for a post that mild. In fact, I find it disturbing....if he's not entitled to express freely his opinion here, when he did not overtly try to insult anyone in any boorish way, I have gravely misunderstood the purpose and the pleasures of this forum. I have been away from it for some time, so perhaps there is a backstory that I am missing; but really, let's put our skins back on and stand tall like redwoods in a strong wind.

leela8,

Thank you for your kind and supportive words. And I realize your response was to make a point about others, not primarily to buck me up. But you did. (And I don't really need it, I'm fine, but it's still nice.)

I think the nerve I may have hit was that part of my post took on what for some here may be received wisdom. I'm speaking of, "The Secret", "The Law of Attraction."

A few years ago, we debated its validity here. It was a fine debate with good points made from many directions. While I agree that ones intention shapes ones behavior and that shapes the results we achieve from a mysterious combination of circumstance, chance, serendipity and actual things we do in the world that create desirable outcomes for ourselves (by the latter I mean things like networking, communicating, working to make things and to make money, creating and sustaining relationships, etc.)

But I do not believe that a miraculous force, based on the laws of quantum physics, brings us the things we desire, if we just want them enough. If that's the mechanism, or process, whatever anyone wants to call it, I think it's ludicrous. I gave up depending on prayer to God, back in my late teens. If when I die, I still have consciousness, and I find myself in a face to face conversation with ?, I'll have a lot of questions. She/he/it/they have a lotta 'splainin' to do! (Think Ricky Ricardo, "Luciiieeee, you gotta lotta ...)

From what I read here, what I hear in real face to face conversations, what I get from other sources, there are quite a few people on this board, and around and about this region, who do think that way. On the entire planet, obviously.

So those people and I disagree. I'm cool with it, the ones I know personally and like, I love dearly. The ones I know here, or are merely acquainted with in "meat world" I love as much, if not more than the rest of humanity. It's really not a problem, for me.

In the later responses to marcwordsmiths original post, I saw some versions of that magical thinking being expressed. That, along with those responses not really being relevant to the question or the discussion (my opinion, of course! It really goes without saying.) irked me. So I wrote why. After thinking for a couple of days about whether or not to even mention it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my speculation is, that my response irked those who think really, really wanting something, with the purest of intentions, will be instrumental in making it happen, per se, without other actions being necessary. For me, the desire is just the beginning, and acting "in the world" is a necessary and contingent factor in making good things happen for ourselves, or for anyone else. That's what's been my experience.

So, as for just, "hoping to manifest x, y or z."? Talk is cheap! Until someone makes you pay for it.

(Perhaps this thread needs to be split, to separate the process discussion from the toxic majestic redwoods discussion. Much as I love them, perhaps the trees nefarious fluff is directing our behavior as we write here? The trees are god damn Socialists!!! I knew it!)

The Feud is playing Bear Republic in Healdsburg this evening, and I've three days of newspaper to read and primping to do. I'm out.

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

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Blame it on the Redwoods. :hmmm:
If you experience the wonder of solitude at any point in your life, things do come up. Sit with them and leave the Redwoods to the wind.
Namaste

hey lydeeyah, that was a truly a useless, condescending comment. Sit with that.

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Posted in reply to the post by lydeeyah:

Blame it on the Redwoods. :hmmm:

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Call me crazy but I hadn't noticed anyone ascribing blame. I had noticed the original poster
making an earnest inquiry for scientific evidence to support anecdotal and historical reports that there might be a biological correlation to the incidence of depression and living in proximity to Redwood trees.

I personally found it an interesting avenue of research, as I had not considered it before, nor had I heard that First Nation peoples had eschewed living near them. As a mighty friend of trees since my childhood (they teach me things--profound things), I admit however to being averse to living within a forest of redwoods. It *does* wreak havoc with my physical health (which is challenged) and I always attributed it to the Dark and Damp effect. I had never thought there could be more to it.

It would indeed be interesting to know if there is a chemical or pollen they emit, or some other organism that lives with them symbiotically or parasitically that depresses a human's system be it immune or otherwise.

I lived for some time in Santa Fe, NM, and the wonderful piñon trees there annually cause half the residents to become absolutely miserable during pollen season, whether you live near them or not. While there is much sneezing and watering of the nose, much puffiness of the eyes, and much purchasing of tissues, no one holds it against the trees or holds rallies against them.

I think there is often some confusion about stating or seeking facts, and the desire to appear in all ways positive-minded. A fact is not in and of itself negative--it is one's reactivity to said fact which carries the negativity or positivity.

Ghandi was in no way inclined to deny or suppress commentary regarding the injustices in India during his time. It was in fact his boldness in facing and declaring those negative realities that allowed his commitment to ahimsa such power. But I digress! The point is no one on this thread has said anything politically or morally or spiritually negative about the redwoods! For heaven's sake, the guy was just askin' a question! Sheesh!

Gosh, marcwordsmith, I bet you never imagined your simple query would spark such fervor!

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leela8 wrote: "Call me crazy but I hadn't noticed anyone ascribing blame. I had noticed the original poster making an earnest inquiry ... I lived for some time in Santa Fe, NM, and the wonderful piñon trees there annually cause half the residents to become absolutely miserable during pollen season, ... I think there is often some confusion about stating or seeking facts, and the desire to appear in all ways positive-minded. A fact is not in and of itself negative--it is one's reactivity to said fact which carries the negativity or positivity. ... Ghandi was in no way inclined to deny or suppress commentary regarding the injustices in India during his time. It was in fact his boldness in facing and declaring those negative realities that allowed his commitment to ahimsa such power...The point is no one on this thread has said anything politically or morally or spiritually negative about the redwoods! For heaven's sake, the guy was just askin' a question! Sheesh! Gosh, marcwordsmith, I bet you never imagined your simple query would spark such fervor!

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Just to get back to the mythology about the First Nation people and redwood trees, for a minute. First of all, in those times we are talking an unbroken virgin forest of old growth trees along the coast from Big Sur all the way up to Oregon. I doubt any of us can imagine that. They didn't go there not because of "evil spirits" but because there was no reason to except for awe. There was no game there. Anything they might have wanted to hunt or gather was in the canopy high overhead and out of reach. Little grew on the forest floor in the shade of those massive trees so there was just no point of spending time there. Those trees were sacred to them, however, and they were horrified when the white men began to cut them down. Now the oak meadows just inland were rich with acorns, herbs, game and the rivers and streams and ponds were full of fish, turtles, waterfowl. Why bother with the forest? All this talk of evil spirits was yet another white man's misinterpretation become urban legend.
The black mold came with the white man as well. His habit of building the same kind of sealed box structure (that traps moisture, dust and spores) well suited for parts of Europe no matter if it's out in a field or under a grove of trees, in a desert or in a rain forest and bringing "proper" things from Europe that had the mold spores all over them.
The First Nation people didn't live in permanent housing like that, they'd move around with the seasons, like the bird and animal people.

A psychologist character in Iris Murdoch's novel The Message to the Planet states, "Yet all men [sic], even you, carry within their minds some sharp thorn, some bud of cancerous pain, which perhaps will never be activated, but from which, very rarely, they receive some instant spasm of incomprehensible anguish."

On the other hand, Robin Williamson, formerly of the Incredible String Band, wrote in his first song, October Song, "I used to search for happiness, I used to follow pleasure/But I found a door behind my mind, and that's the greatest treasure."

And doesn't the Bible say something about the kingdom of Heaven lying within?

Oddly enough, I think all of these statements are true.

Well, this thread has gone walkabout! It's what I love about this medium. I'm suffering from a deep emotional wound (beyond the usual ones!), newly struck, that I'm waiting to reveal to the world of waccobb. I would prefer Barry to deliver the news. I'm not sure I can do it without spreading the trauma and pain. Barry?

I'm off to the last few sets at Accordion Fest, see you there! Flaco plays at 6:00!!!

And I hear the jets in the background. I've some thoughts (duh!?) which I might put on the appropriate thread, if I can get over the trauma that I'm being such a drama... (king?) about.

'Zout!

Yep, its sort of obvious,
being in dark damp places for long periods of time will make you feel gloomy. the american indians were just stating the obvious...they called them spirits, we call it depression.

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

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:treehugger:There is NO QUESTION about whether Redwood Trees can cause depression! During that wind storm about 2 weeks ago, I awoke to discover our backyard redwood tree had dropped a big limb directly across my Kiwi Kayak, cracking its middle and rendering it useless. After I discovered what had happened, I was bummed all day. And as if that wasn't enough, the remainder of the huge limb made a sizable dent in my back yard - which, of course, is a depression of another kind.
stephen (I have pictures to prove it)

Aw gosh, you might have to trade that old wrecked kayak for a mystery train! :wink:

Well Landpaths has the Grove of Old Trees, a magical grove of old growth redwoods, on Fitzpatrick Lane off of Joy Road. When I am feeling funky, depressed or just generally out of sorts I go there and being there does wonders. I find the place calming, renewing and healing.

For me its a temple.

Gary Abreim

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Posted in reply to the post by sharonvirtue:

Yep, its sort of obvious,
being in dark damp places for long periods of time will make you feel gloomy. the american indians were just stating the obvious...they called them spirits, we call it depression.

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I had heard that redwoods, like the ocean give off negative ions - which are mood elevators!

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

Depression is defined as "Anger turned inward".

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Depression is your being telling you it wishes for something important to change.

Finally! An explanation for Guerneville.

:urgtgslpy::frogdance::wink:

inre: the evil spirits in the redwoods? I wonder if that isn't a misunderstanding.. it is kinda depressing to be in a place that is dark and damp most of the time.. I know some wonderful places to visit, with redwoods and beautiful creeks and waterfalls, but I know I'd be sad if I never got any direct sun for most of the year and most of the day.. I would hesitate to live there, as much as I love the redwood forest. My "spirits" would be low, for sure..

As was noted, a redwood forest doesn't really sustain much life, other than redwood trees, and maybe few ferns and other adapted plants. Only a few hundred years ago, the land around here was so diverse in habitat, and so abundant with game.. many places, but not so much in the redwoods..

I have heard that Native Americans believed there were evil spirits in the Sonoma Valley, and that they preferred to live in the hills.. seriously, I think the valley was probably very boggy and not too pleasant, and at least in modern times, it's really bad for allergies here, in the summer..

But it just occurred to me that the real evil spirits might have been the Christian "Brothers", or other "illegal immigrants", who enslaved them, took away their children, (for "education"), and their languages; who gave them diseased blankets that ended up killing most of them off.. who are "we" to claim to understand their reasons for living anywhere, when we made it impossible for them to continue to live here?

Scott.

:Yinyangv: In honor of Native Americans, please put into perspective what is simple and well known. Native Americans had an instinctive awareness of all things in nature. Their's was to respect and take only what was necessary to be with the unity of earth and sky. Tribal people revered nature and God :waccosun:.

Trees are the standing monuments to remind us of our smallness on the planet. They represent what we are not.
Where I reside is a forest way up north in California. Here giant Redwoods and enormous evergreen trees are abound and fill the spaces of the sky. In rain or shine these giants emit a soothing comfort with their dark green blanket over us, whispering quiet conversations. Their grace and beauty is astounding. Without complaint these giants absorb carbon and take up noxtious impurities spewing 24/7 from humanity. In return the trees give the gift of oxygen, the breath of life back to us.
---And still, in all that is good about the trees, some would believe trees cause (them) illness.
Forgive me, but some find fault with anything outside of self.

With respect to what has been said in this thread, I beg to differ and know that it is my opinion. You do not have to agree.
What I would think is that Native Americans were most interested in useful elements emitted from trees - sources of medicinal healing remedies. That is not to say that saddness was off the charts. I am sure Native people experienced times of great depression with experienced poverty, death and natural events. Sadness plays an essential role in the nature of humanity.

Humans are greatly affected by their environment. Am I naive in thinking that depression stems from sources, not from an unknown chemical that emits from Redwood trees? Is it so bad to reject the dependance of so many lined up at the pharmacy, to dismiss their inability to seek any sort of self-healing. The sobs of desire for more soak them in finding more reasons for depression.

Why do people need new venues to blame for moods, now under tall trees?

No, I am not mean spirited, nor am I Republican. In and out and everything in-between is to make self claimed choices and participate in the events of life.
Extremely rough times fall on each of us at one time or another. A survivor, it's healing from within, together in song with personal strength, intelligence and an ability to see the trees through the forest.

As some are tired of one thing or another, so I am tired of the whining.
Seek and you shall find links to places of depression: i.e. google depression@someplace else.

Don't blame trees for your woes.
Rather, the Redwood trees should blame humanity for their demise and the grave destruction humans have brought to the Redwoods - worthy of a good cry direclty under their bows.
Have you visited the bare acreage, stripped of wood? Do you know that large trucks still haul Redwood trees to market? See the daily show on Hwy 101. For me, an extremely sad and depressing event.

Redwoods don't make it to the front pages, but live a pure and simple life. If left to their nature they can grow and lavish our planet far beyond our own existance.:heart:

I hope your reply was to other posts, Lydeeyah.. I certainly agree with all you have said below.. trees are sacred to me, as well, and I think it would be presumptuous to imagine that I know how native Americans related to nature, except that I believe they honored all aspects of nature.. as I try to do. We all have a right to our own viewpoints, IMO, and we each must choose our own path. There is no "right" solution to individuals' problems or concerns. I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss meaningful subjects with intelligent and respectful peers.. We live in a complex and rapidly changing world, and I think we need to try to communicate and understand each other, in order to create some kind of sustainable path, forward!

I would be depressed, by the way if redwood trees were removed.. and I too am saddened by the insensitive removal of trees along Hwy. 101 and other road projects. I think Caltrans should be required to plant several new trees to replace each mature tree that they cut down! At least that would be a gesture towards sustainability. Instead they want to widen highway 101 up north, to allow yet more trucks and car traffic. It's a classic case of lop-sided thinking, IMO.. ; /

Scott.

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Posted in reply to the post by lydeeyah:

:Yinyangv: In honor of Native Americans, ....

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Two evil spirits I know of are the big branches which come crashing down and the tannin which eats holes in my truck paint. But then one evil spirit that abides in dougie firs is the splat in a high wind after the ground is thoroughly saturated. Unless you propitiate the spirit of trees they can be quite vengeful. There are ancient rituals involving the spirits of redwood rooters which only the people who came before Indians knew.

Here's something I'll bet we can all agree is NOT so depressing:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...04-08_1035.png

400 Acres of Ancient Redwoods Saved More than 400 acres of old-growth redwood forest on the northern coast of California are now protected. Over the past two years, the Center for Biological Diversity has been challenging logging plans that would have destroyed some of California's last remaining old forest. The area most recently in danger, known as the Noyo River Canyon in Mendocino County, has just been bought by the preservation organization Save the Redwoods League -- meaning the Center won't have to stay in court to protect these amazing trees. The area will continue to provide safe habitat for many years to come for numerous threatened and endangered species, including the marbled murrelet, a shy, seafaring bird that relies on old-growth forest for nesting.
Read more in the Martinez News-Gazette and San Francisco Chronicle.

From the Center for Biological diversity.

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Posted in reply to the post by chollie:

Two evil spirits I know of are the big branches which come crashing down and the tannin which eats holes in my truck paint. But then one evil spirit that abides in dougie firs is the splat in a high wind after the ground is thoroughly saturated. Unless you propitiate the spirit of trees they can be quite vengeful. There are ancient rituals involving the spirits of redwood rooters which only the people who came before Indians knew.

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Am I apropriate to go all the way back to the originator of this thread? anyhow I will, because It's my turn to speak.

As far as "Evil" spirits are concerned, are we humans not the determiners of what is evil? A tree drops its branches when it is done with it, or it was diseased, a natural phenomena. You might even think that the benevolent forces were "sharing" with you, because in the ancient of days, a little wood was all that was needed for structure or firewood for warmth. In the days before big saws and trucks for hauling, the only wood that was used was what the trees didn't need anymore.

As far as the tannin that eats through the paint.... mmm. is not the intruder the paint itself? Perhaps you are viewed as the enemy? Or your choice of machine/truck/paint. I've seen where homes, cars, trailers are covered with debris from the trees, and (we) view that as evil interference, yet WE are the interference, the plague that was never here before, the mutated versions of destructors that once were beneficiaries of the longevity of the planet.

If I was a tree, I would be incredibly vengeful, knowing that (through my extensive root structure that connects me to every tree in the woods) day by day, my home, my colleagues my friends, cut down butchered tortured and destroyed. I would find some way to change molecularly my very cells to help my Mother Planet (plan E.T.) (plant) (plant it) to destroy the cancer (humans)that seems to plague the planet, has already destroyed half (the middle east and Africa WAS once a lush, green place, with "the cedars of Lebanon" beyond compare) now look at it, a desolate wasteland, with the remaining pitiful creatures barely scrabbling for survival. Is this what we want??

Add to this the current destruction of Japan, and now that is infringing on our sacred air space... The ancients rituals, which is needed, has been all but been obliterated by the morals and ideals of the crusaders and the bloodthirsty warriors who "cleansed" the "infidels" out of the world to prepare the world for the almost an accomplished takeover, in which the natural resources of the planet are stripped to the means of a planet as a desolate, place of disease and hunger, if not in pieces.

The true caretakers of this world were hunted down, as a peaceful people, unarmed, by code and creed. If anyone know hows to contact these beings, or cares, perhaps transmissions could be made to salvage what may be left of this planet when we have had our day.(something say to speak to the crystal skulls at it's time) and Let those of us who point our fingers and say something is "evil" remember that we have three fingers pointing back at ourselves, and remember that we were first here to care for the planet, not to destroy, and before science got involved, things were OK, but now, since the atom has been split, things definitely not been the same. (Speaking of spirits I wouldn't want to be a entity particle-ized and endlessly searching for my other parts, searching for wholeness) I think that many of us are seeking that in these times? how about you?

Thank you for the opportunity to speak my opinion, I hope it help someone, somehow.

Reading your long note reminds me of something I once read from Eckhart Tolle. My attempt to paraphrase: he was explaining about some of his experiences on the a path towards spirituality. One day he found himself traveling in a car, his mind was criticizing another driver who was upset ,saying something like 'he's less spiritually attuned than I, doesn't understand how peaceful he could be if he was more like I'. Then Tolle laughed at himself, seeing that he too was just as upset about the other driver being upset, neither were at peace. I find it to be an ongoing challenge to share our thoughts without criticizing anothers awareness or making our personal awareness appear to have greater importance. My beliefs are we are all in this together, as a Native American friend said to me years ago "we're all Indians now". When I listen to trees they are accepting and continue to improvise and grow in the most difficult situations. I find it interesting you would be a vengeful tree....see how different all of our perceptions are!

And it was a joke!

(I'm referring to Post #32 in this thread. Barry emailed me privately to chastise me for not specifying. Did anybody not understand which post I was referring to?)

Wonderful!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by tacitus:

The grove was set to be cut when a number of activists came together and with neighbors fought the good fight and saved the trees. No one was more amazed than we were at our success! Research by Rick Coates and Janet Greene brought forward the concept of the redwoods holding fog moisture, creating the microclimate we now understand is part of the heritage of these western hills. Perhaps the positive feelings you have there are the residue of thankfulness of the trees to those who saved them from the chainsaws. (And that's as woo-woo as I'm gonna get!)

Dian

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This is an interesting discussion. Diverse outlooks all within our personal spheres of reference. We all have experience with the redwoods in various ways.
I have such respect for the wood it gives. I've found boards of old growth on the beach that were weathered on some out-building for ages, got caught in a flood and hurled along by a rushing river. After some time in sea-salt water it gets tossed onto the beach and bakes in the sun for days/ months. And still when I pick it up this board of perfect wood is true. No warping, no twisting. My respect for the wood is huge, but there is no WAY I would cut down an old growth tree or even a mature tree for my use. Salvage is where my respect will take me. However I will say that I lived in an old farmhouse for 20 yrs that was built of old growth wood (sigh). Most of the old ones around here are.

But back to the topic of adverse reactions from the trees themselves, I'll bet that could be very subjective. For example, as much as I love butterflies and offer my garden to them as much as possible, I have found the Butterfly Bush to be extremely dangerous to me personally. The pollen or fuzz or something from it, worse from the old blooms, catches in my throat and a few times I simply could not breathe. I blithely planted one close to my old house and had to trim it back all the time and it always was a dicey job.
I joked that it was trying to kill me and I should tear it out, but I never did. Soft heart or soft head, yeah I know what my dad would say...
I would guess that the redwoods themselves are elixir to some and anathema to others. That is the way these days.
We can all respect them. It doesn't mean we can all thrive in their midst. Me? No thank you. I would want these fantastic redwoods at my back and oak trees and a vista in front of me. Viva Northern California!

I just found this interesting article about propagating ancient redwoods and thought it would make a nice addition to this thread..

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/u...gewanted=2&hpw

It talks about cloning and planting thousands of "copies" of ancient redwoods.. for the purpose of carbon sequestration, oxygen production, forest renewal, etc.. Whether it's a hundred percent thought out or not, it sounds like a positive step.. (one possible downside is cloning, vs. natural propagation would result in less diversity, hence less resistance to pests? )

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Posted in reply to the post by hales:

I just found this interesting article about propagating ancient redwoods and thought it would make a nice addition to this thread..

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/u...gewanted=2&hpw

It talks about cloning and planting thousands of "copies" of ancient redwoods.. for the purpose of carbon sequestration, oxygen production, forest renewal, etc.. Whether it's a hundred percent thought out or not, it sounds like a positive step.. (one possible downside is cloning, vs. natural propagation would result in less diversity, hence less resistance to pests? )

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I haven't kept up with this thread, as interesting as it is, but would like to offer something, having studied and taught a course in redwood ecology. A couple of worthwhile references on redwood biology, ecology, and human interactions therewith (these don't explore the psychology, spirituality, or metaphysics of redwood groves, however) are The Redwood Forest, edited by Reed Noss (Island Press, 2000), and Coast Redwood: A Natural and Cultural History, edited by John Evarts and Marjorie Popper (Cachuma Press, 2001).

Caution is certainly appropriate in discussing planting clones (and the carbon sequestration industry has become another corporate racket): humans have already altered ecosystems, locally and globally, by cloning species such as Monterey pine and Monterey cypress and propagating the genetic clones for horticultural and timber-harvesting purposes. These 2 species are rare in their respective, very restricted, native geographical ranges, yet clones of both have "naturalized" and are spreading in coastal ecosystems in northern California (Monterey pine is also an ecologically "invasive" -- I won't define this word now -- tree in New Zealand and other places).

Coast redwood ancestors (as well as those of its closest living relatives giant sequoia and dawn redwood) once, millions of years ago, were dominant trees in what is now the northern hemisphere. The 2 California natives are now restricted to habitats that were once more prevalent on Earth, and as such, are called "relict" species, and depending on how climate changes in the future, may continue to lose appropriate habitat for their continued evolution and survival. Planting redwood trees outside the native range of the species is perhaps not such a great idea, certainly debatable at best, and planting clones raises many other issues, including those noted, such as reduced disease resistance and other ecological incompatibilities. Unfortunately, replacing the redwood or (your favorite ecosystem name here) ecosystems that have been lost is not nearly as simple as planting trees, pulling weeds, or preserving them in parks.

The near-complete human pillage of old-growth redwood trees and the resulting devastation of the ecosystems they define is one of the great, tragic follies, rather crimes, of the "development" and "civilization" of California. The magnificence of the trees and the complexity of the redwood ecosystem have been dwarfed by the unrelenting stupidity and hubris of humans. The destruction of these trees is just another in a seemingly endless list of human psychoses. On one hand, while I find the solace or inspiration afforded by a redwood stand personally worthwhile, I also find more than adequate justification for directing righteous anger towards those who slaughter for profit -- and, in closing, this goes for the criminally insane purveyors and promoters of nuclear power and weapons. The Earth is our only temple, and its trees and ecosystems are as close to a god as I'll ever get.

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Posted in reply to the post by tacitus:

... And the defense point that made the difference was the concept of fog drip, researched by Janet Greene and Rick Coates. ...

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"Fog drip?" Is that the erroneous notion that redwood trees somehow harvest water from the air and this adds up to a net rainfall increase? The only person who could think that is one who's never lived among redwoods. (Or one who never paid attention.) Redwoods suck up an amazing amount of groundwater. They are giant beings and need a lot of water. I've lived in a redwood forest for 16 years now and never have I ever seen a single drop of water coming off of redwood leaves unless it's raining. I live in an area that doesn't get as much fog as some others in Sonoma County, so your mileage may vary, but one thing I have noticed in the summer is this: my spring will slow down considerably during the daytime while the thirsty redwoods suck up a lot of groundwater. At night when their thirst is less the flow of the spring will double or triple.

I love my redwoods but I can tell you for certain they are net water users, not producers. And they do not drip water when it's foggy. Not in my experience in my forest.

-Jeff

Yes, Redwoods suck up a lot of water from the ground. They also get much of their water from fog. It is not physically possible for a tree to lift all the water it needs to its highest branches. Redwoods need to get some of their water from the air. If there is any dipping going on, its probably from fog condensing on the outside of a tree, not coming from inside the tree.

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

"Fog drip?" Is that the erroneous notion that redwood trees somehow harvest water from the air and this adds up to a net rainfall increase? The only person who could think that is one who's never lived among redwoods. ...

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When I moved to the farm that I created 24 years ago in the Sebastopol countryside, I planted many redwoods, for various reasons. Though they do take water from the ground, they also bring moisture down from the sky. They also provide habitat for insects, most of which are beneficials. They eat the few insects that are pests.

Plus that, they provide redwood fairy circles, into which I invite my students, boysenberry customers, and families and schools for farm tours. Having been raised partly in a Panamanian jungle, I like being surrounded by trees, which have a magical impact that we mere humans often do not really understand. Plus that, they provide the oxygen that we and other life forms need to survive. Reaching up to the sky, as redwoods do, helps me deal with depression during this time of Trump attacks.

I moved here to live in the natural Redwood Empire, not the commercial Wine Country. PLANT REDWOODS!

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Posted in reply to the post by Nendahwaab:

Yes, Redwoods suck up a lot of water from the ground. They also get much of their water from fog. ...

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yup, it rains under my redwoods in woodacre when it is merely fogging elsewhere.

People who fear darkness may find the redwoods depressing. On the other hand, mystics, like St. John of the Cross, write about "the dark night of the soul." Poets like David Whyte write about "sweet darkness." Depressed Americans may go to overly bright malls to be inspired by shopping, shopping and strangers. I have descents, which are not fun, but are often followed by an ascent.

Some of the military veterans in a group I am in--especially those who dropped napalm--have forms of "light trauma," especially if they saw children go up in flames. Others of us have "sound trauma." I like it when the many redwoods on the land that I share with them dance with their partner, the wind, as they are doing right at this moment. I consider the sound that this couple produces to be a form of spiritual singing. Oh, blessed moment, here in the cherished Redwood Empire. Long after the humans have done their fire-power damage, may the redwoods, oaks, and other life forms outlive we terrorist, destructive two-footeds.

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Posted in reply to the post by lydeeyah:

...Am I naive in thinking that depression stems from sources, not from an unknown chemical that emits from Redwood trees? ...

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Interesting comments, Wacco family!

I am the mother of a Native American daughter.
Many years ago, she came home from kindergarten one day and told me she had learned that all the Indians/Native Americans were dead...to which I replied, "What about papa, and yr grampa, and all the People we saw at the Pow Wow yesterday?"
My point here is that people (including many wonderful people who've posted in this thread)
frequently speak of Native Americans in the past tense (Native Americans thought, believed, etc.) ...just thought I'd mention that...
and of course not all Native Americans thought/believed or think/believe the same thing.

Actually, the same is true for those with European ancestry, or ancestors dwelling anywhere else in ancient times.
All of our ancestors were deeply connected to Nature. Some of us still are...

As well as other things, I am a tree lover, hugger and a singer-to-trees.
I lived many years in the Occidental forest on a small mountain and very much miss those trees...
I now live in downtown Santa Rosa under a redwood , sequioa and another giant (I think humans call that one a cypress ). My neighbor calls this an urban forest.
Oddly, I my small garden did better there in the forest than it does here ---the buildings block the sun here.

My dear PomoMiwok friend, Dennis Barela (singer, culture bearer, and ceremony leader) told me that his people did not live under the trees. I think he said something like, it's considered 'bad medicine'.

I think it is a question of balance, like most things.
And what season: hot bright summer or cold dark winter?

It can be depressing to be sun-light deprived; I enjoy that it stays light longer here in Santa Rosa.

Yet I find that I feel tired, when I walk from the sunny street to my rather dark little cottage--
I think it has to do with my body feeling like it is later/getting close to darkness, ie. resting time.
Then if I walk back out to the sunshine I feel much more awake!

But, of course--it is so much cooler in the shade on these hot days, which is such a sweet gift!

I have a friend whose young child was killed at a birthday party as he was running and playing, when a huge branch fell on the child...

Most often, I have experienced so many times when trees dropped their branches, just missing the places where the people were--garages rather than bedrooms, cars rather than living rooms, etc.

My experience living in a canyon in Rio Nido many years ago (rather than up high in Occidental), was that we frequently had loooooong respiratory problems, even though my young children and I led an extremely healthy life style.

When we moved away from there, surprise!
I discovered that the foam pads we'd been sleeping on the floor upon, had mold on the underside!

I Love Love Love Natura and the Trees and Darkness as well as Light, and soooo miss the forest, though I Love the Trees I live with now.

I often wonder about how the Trees feel about people living in wooden houses, etc.
Imagine if Trees lived in houses and used things (like paper and pencils and chopsticks) made of human beings. Hmmmm...

Here's a song I offer to you, from my Heart to your Hearts.
Sing it to the tune of "O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree", anytime of year...
Now is Summer Solstice time, and it would be Lovely and Powerful to sing to the Trees you live with:

"O Precious Trees! O Precious Trees! We honor you, we Thank you! (repeat)
(chorus)
You give us food, and paper too,
You warm our homes, We build with you.
O Precious Trees! O Precious Trees! We honor you, we Thank you."

(Feel free to make up some new words too--maybe,
"O Bless-ed Trees!", or "O Sacred Trees!" or "O Treasured Trees!" or "You give us shade, sweet air, too...")

There is a huge 100 year old oak at Isis Oasis in Geyserville.
I liked to take groups of children there, when we were studying ancient Egypt.

The last time I was there, the Priestess Lorien was still alive in her human body.
She gave us each a turn to use a stethoscope, to listen to the Heartbeat of that powerful old oak.
I'd never thought of that before!
And yes--I could easily hear the pulse of that powerful tree!
The trees' water is like our blood, pulsing thru our beings...

Wacco family,
I honor you, I Thank you!
With Kindness,
Dusty
aka gaiasophia
Now--I hope you step outside and start singing!

I just remembered 3 other contributions that redwoods make to nature:

1. Redwoods are acidic. My boysenberries thrive on acidic soil, so I use redwood droppings to make the soil more acidic. We just trimmed some low-hanging branches for a camp-out space for some pickers. This is the time of year when we pick and sell boysenberries. So redwoods contribute to healthy foods; people and other life forms have been eating berries for centuries. Yum! Yum! They are particularly good for men to reduce the risk of prostate cancer, as is eating tomatoes.

2. For years, I have taught classes within the container of a fairy circle, within which children and adults have felt the power, beauty, and authority of redwoods, which are awesome.

3. However hot it is in the boysenberry field, one can always find shade in the redwood circles, a good place to rest and eat, especially when it hits 100 degrees, as is scheduled for tomorrow.

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Posted in reply to the post by gaiasophia:

Interesting comments, Wacco family! ...

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Good evening,
I am so grateful for your response to this post, it showed me that there are others out there you have similar thoughts!! Thank you so very much!
Namaste

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Posted in reply to the post by sabbathmaiden:

greetings, beings~

i have always felt a deep embrace, a cradling when in the midst of a redwood grove. many a time, i have felt safe enough to cry and let go when in their shadows. i'm not sure what "depression" is being defined as, but if it has anything to do with facing the sadness and unresolved shadows that live in us, i can imagine the redwoods' powerful mirroring and presence would put us in touch with that, which may feel "depressing." just my opinion, i think the "depression" felt is something that is already present, and allowed to be felt in such deep and tranquil places.

blessings~raven

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

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I've been a counselor and psychotherapist for more than a decade and here's my take on this issue:

Sunshine and bright skies do enhance mood as far as I've seen.

Darkness, dark days, bad weather (and perhaps reduced sunlight if someone's home is totally surrounded by big trees like redwoods) does tend to contribute to darker feelings for many but not all people.

Some people suffer from SAD (seasonal affective disorder) and bright light helps to reduce symptoms.

Also, many folks are greatly inspired by the majesty, glory and beauty of big old redwoods...

I hope this is helpful!
Best Wishes,
Hannah Caratti, LMFT
www.counselingyogameditation.com
707-494-7470

I planted Redwoods all around my house for all the reasons in these posts pro and con. So that makes me neutral . Right? At peace with everybody including myself, .......but more importantly the Trees....

We have lived in a former "skid row' along the river for 40 years now and have planted 13 redwood trees that are slowly redefining the property...love the grove they are creating...peaceful and essential habitat for our wild neighbors. This is a legacy we find optimistic not depressive.