Psychedelic Mushrooms Boost Mental Health

https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...searchers-say/

Psychedelic Mushrooms Can Boost Mental Health, Researchers Say


https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...-mushrooms.jpg
Medical research is getting a little groovier. In a new report, scientists declared that the active ingredient in hallucinogenic “magic mushrooms” had beneficial effects on test subjects who took the substance under a doctor’s supervision. What’s more, the effects lingered; 14 months after the experiment, more than half the subjects reported still feeling an increase in well-being or life satisfaction, in terms of things like feeling more creative, self-confident, flexible and optimistic [AP].
The experiment was one of the few conducted in the four decades since the government cracked down on hallucinogens, banning most research and listing them as a dangerous drugs. Researchers say the study marks another shift in policy, which could yield research with dramatic insights. “These drugs are no longer being confined to rats in test tubes,” said David Nichols, a Purdue University pharmacologist who was not involved in the study. “What we’re looking at is a largely unexplored technology for brain science — it was discovered in the 1940s, set the psychiatry world ablaze in the 1950s, and was aborted by widespread recreational abuse, the reaction of the media and its confluence with the Vietnam war” [Wired News].
In the study, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology [subscription required], researchers gave test subjects doses of psilocybin, the active ingredient in some wild mushrooms, and directed the volunteers to lie down, listen to classical music, and “look inward.” When the trip was over, many described life-changing mystical experiences of the sort typically reported by monks, saints and other devoutly religious. Even those who experienced fear or sadness rated the experience as spiritually important, and no one reported long-lasting negative effects [Baltimore Sun].
The report was accompanied by another article [subscription required] which laid out the guideline for safe and ethical research on psilocybin: The drug is only given to people with no history of psychosis or serious mental disorders, and psychological support is provided during and after the experience [Los Angeles Times]. The psilocybin researchers also stressed that they’re not encouraging people to take hallucinogens outside the controlled setting of a lab, and added that the powerful substances can provoke fear and panic.
While some researchers hope to use psilocybin for scientific inquiry into the nature of human spirituality, others have more objective medical goals. Researchers say they’ll conducting further studies to examine whether the mushrooms can help people with such wide-ranging ailments as obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and alcoholism, as well as people who are coping with a cancer diagnosis.

For an in-depth look at how hallucinogens have snuck back into the lab, check out DISCOVER’s recent story, “Could an Acid Trip Cure Your OCD?”
Image: Wikimedia Commons
Tags: drugs & addiction, hallucinogens, mental health
July 2nd, 2008 by Eliza Strickland in Mind & Brain

Jeff, these kind of non-scientific studies are considered anecdotal. But you knew that already.
Are you trying to get Don all riled up again?

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Jeff, these kind of non-scientific studies are considered anecdotal. But you knew that already.
Are you trying to get Don all riled up again?

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Actually, this is a report on a study that is quite scientific.

Something much more than anecdotal. This is about things that can be measured, are being measured and recorded.

Not a double blind placebo controlled study, but those don't really work with psychedelics, do they?

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Actually, this is a report on a study that is quite scientific.

Something much more than anecdotal. This is about things that can be measured, are being measured and recorded.

Not a double blind placebo controlled study, but those don't really work with psychedelics, do they?

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by scientist:

and directed the volunteers to lie down, listen to classical music, and “look inward.” When the trip was over, many described life-changing mystical experiences of the sort typically reported by monks, saints and other devoutly religious. Even those who experienced fear or sadness rated the experience as spiritually important, and no one reported long-lasting negative effects .

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LOL Jeff,
How were these mystical experiences measured and recorded?:hmmm:

ah, puppycock! i tried those sycodelicmushroooms when i was a younger man and they did not h i n g for my m i n d................

they d i d n u thi n g 444 mi my nd.....i reap peet...................... ............

..... i .......... .............. ........................ . . ...........


l.. ................. . . . . .......






.......... .................. i ...................... whaaaaaaaaa...........


.........nuth......................................ing...........................wow...

[quote=Braggi;
[SIZE=3]Psyche.............delic Mush.............rooms Can Boo...st Ment......al H....eal.th, R.................e...........se.........ar.chers ......Say[/size]

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

LOL Jeff,
How were these mystical experiences measured and recorded?:hmmm:

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It's not the mystical experiences, it's the sequelae. Did these experiences change their lives for the better? There are differences that can be measured. I don't think anyone expected major shifts, but some significant improvements do appear in the records.

The bottom line is that this substance brought some improvements to these subjects lives and that's a good argument to allow further legal testing.

-Jeff

OK, what are these differences that can be measured?

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Posted in reply to the post by Jeff:

There are differences that can be measured.

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What significant improvements appear in the records?

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Posted in reply to the post by Jeff:

but some significant improvements do appear in the records.

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Sequelae???? Jeff

Quote: Posted in reply to the post by Wikki: Singular sequela Plural sequelae sequela (plural sequelae) a disease or condition which is caused by an earlier disease or problem

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

It's not the mystical experiences, it's the sequelae. Did these experiences change their lives for the better? There are differences that can be measured. I don't think anyone expected major shifts, but some significant improvements do appear in the records.

The bottom line is that this substance brought some improvements to these subjects lives and that's a good argument to allow further legal testing.

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

OK, what are these differences that can be measured?

What significant improvements appear in the records?

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Did a wife beater continue to beat his wife after the experience? That can be measured and recorded.

Behavioral changes, MsTerry. Both subjective and objective changes. The objective obtained by questioning friends and family members.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

... Sequelae???? Jeff

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Wow. [See posts below]

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Did a wife beater continue to beat his wife after the experience? That can be measured and recorded.
-Jeff

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WOW , Jeff WOW, a wife beater???
why did you come up with this example ? Hmmmmmmm.......

As you admitted, this was not a blind or double-blind test, besides that, the participants more than likely were informed about the substance they were taking (they probable had to sign a release form) and it's effects (long-term and short-term).
In legal language it is called coerced testimony.
It is not objective, since they are anticipating some results.
The people that were recruited could not have been average or even an objective group of participants as a result.

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Posted in reply to the post by Article:

The drug is only given to people with no history of psychosis or serious mental disorders, and psychological support is provided during and after the experience

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Do wife beaters qualify with these guide lines?

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Posted in reply to the post by jeff:

Behavioral changes, MsTerry. Both subjective and objective changes. The objective obtained by questioning friends and family members.

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There was no mention of family being interviewed, only subjective interpretation

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Posted in reply to the post by Article:

14 months after the experiment, more than half the subjects reported still feeling an increase in well-being or life satisfaction, in terms of things like feeling more creative, self-confident, flexible and optimistic [AP]

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.

First meaning in dictionary, Sequela: A thing that follows, consequence. A perfectly good word for those long-term positive consequences of taking the mushrooms....But, I think I'll pass on them for now!

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Posted in reply to the post by Sylph:

[B] First meaning in dictionary, Sequela: A thing that follows, consequence ...

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Well, I thought I knew what that word meant. Both definitions. MsTerry threw me there. Thanks for the save Sylph.

-Jeff

It _was_ a double-blind test, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology.
https://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/...881108094300v1

To summarize, the volunteers, who were 'hallucinogen-naïve' (Isn't that a great way to say they don't use drugs :-) were given psilocybin (not actually mushrooms).

14 months later:
58% rated the psilocybin-occasioned experience as being among the five most personally meaningful experiences of their lives

67% rated it among the five most spiritually significant experiences of their lives ;

64% indicated that the experience increased well-being or life satisfaction;

58% met criteria for having had a ‘complete’ mystical experience.

No one reported long-lasting negative effects

It _was_ a double blind study.

The 'coerced testimony' argument is countered by the double blind study.

Participants did _not_ rate the placebo sessions as their peak experiences.

No one reported a long lasting negative effect. 64% of them said it "increased well-being or life satisfaction; "

Very very few things in life have that strong a positive impact, and that low a negative.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

As you admitted, this was not a blind or double-blind test, besides that, the participants more than likely were informed about the substance they were taking (they probable had to sign a release form) and it's effects (long-term and short-term).
In legal language it is called coerced testimony.
It is not objective, since they are anticipating some results.
The people that were recruited could not have been average or even an objective group of participants as a result.

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Sorry P3, but this does NOT qualify as a double blind test.
There was no control group as far as I can tell that never received the mushrooms and only the methylphenidate.

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

It _was_ a double-blind test, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology.
https://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/...881108094300v1

To summarize, the volunteers, who were 'hallucinogen-naïve' (Isn't that a great way to say they don't use drugs :-) were given psilocybin (not actually mushrooms).

14 months later:
58% rated the psilocybin-occasioned experience as being among the five most personally meaningful experiences of their lives

67% rated it among the five most spiritually significant experiences of their lives ;

64% indicated that the experience increased well-being or life satisfaction;

58% met criteria for having had a ‘complete’ mystical experience.

No one reported long-lasting negative effects

It _was_ a double blind study.

The 'coerced testimony' argument is countered by the double blind study.

Participants did _not_ rate the placebo sessions as their peak experiences.

No one reported a long lasting negative effect. 64% of them said it "increased well-being or life satisfaction; "

Very very few things in life have that strong a positive impact, and that low a negative.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Sorry P3, but this does NOT qualify as a double blind test.
There was no control group as far as I can tell that never received the mushrooms and only the methylphenidate.

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Well, so what? What's your problem? Do you propose there is a way to do a double blind study with mushrooms?

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Well, so what? What's your problem? Do you propose there is a way to do a double blind study with mushrooms?

-Jeff

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Well, well, now, now Jeff
Does that mean you will accept "science" when it suits your beliefs??

I am almost positive that you have not read the actual study - I know I didn't want to pay $30 to read it (doesn't information want to be free :-)

The claim in the abstract is ...

"We previously reported the effects of a double-blind study evaluating the psychological effects of a high psilocybin dose. This report presents the 14-month follow-up"

So their claim is that this was a double blind study. That claim is supported (but of course, not proved!) by the fact that their paper was
published in a peer reviewed journal in their field.

You don't agree with something involving this paper. I don't understand your objections, but I'd be curious to hear them.

The paper's conclusion supports my anecdotal experiences about the effect of hallucinogenic trips. Something about the study, or the results, or the reports on the study, does not support your world view, or, more probably, you are, like me, at times just an oppositional assxxxx :-) (the smiley is to soften the harshness of implying that you might at times act the axxhole, not to soften the admission that I certainly do at times act the role of the axshxoxe).

You are attacking the methodology of this peer reviewed paper. I _think_ that you are attacking the methodology because you do not agree with the findings.

I am pleasantly surprised by the findings, so of course i have an incentive to not question the methodology, but everything I can see implies that this is a legitimate paper, in which they used legitimate science, and found that (simplifying a little) that people like to hallucinate, and after they have, they remember the experience fondly.

Are there any parts of this whole thing in which you think we agree?

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Sorry P3, but this does NOT qualify as a double blind test.
There was no control group as far as I can tell that never received the mushrooms and only the methylphenidate.

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1) This _was_ a double blind study

2) 'Science' does not require double blind studies. Science, at least, what I consider to be 'Science' only requires that when you make statements of fact that there is a possible (even if not practical) way in which those statements can be falsified.

Due to his particular knowledge, I would love Zeno to either get my back on this, or for him to simply tell me I am wrong!

MsTerry - are you bothered by the possibility that shrooms may have a positive effect, is there another issue? Or are you simply being obstructionist?

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Well, well, now, now Jeff
Does that mean you will accept "science" when it suits your beliefs??

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If they claim a double blind, it should be a double blind, otherwise it will put the whole study into question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_blind_test

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Posted in reply to the post by Article:

Oral psilocybin (30 mg/70 kg) was administered on one of two or three sessions, with methylphenidate (40 mg/70 kg) administered on the other session(s)

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Posted in reply to the post by Wikki:

Double-blind describes an especially stringent way of conducting an experiment, usually on human subjects, in an attempt to eliminate subjective bias on the part of both experimental subjects and the experimenters. In most cases, double-blind experiments are held to achieve a higher standard of scientific rigour.
In a double-blind experiment, neither the individuals nor the researchers know who belongs to the control group and the experimental group. Only after all the data has been recorded (and in some cases, analyzed) do the researchers learn which individuals are which. Performing an experiment in double-blind fashion is a way to lessen the influence of the prejudices and unintentional physical cues on the results (the placebo effect, observer bias, and experimenter's bias). Random assignment of the subject to the experimental or control group is a critical part of double-blind research design. The key that identifies the subjects and which group they belonged to is kept by a third party and not given to the researchers until the study is over.
Double-blind methods can be applied to any experimental situation where there is the possibility that the results will be affected by conscious or unconscious bias on the part of the experimenter.

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

1) This _was_ a double blind study

2) 'Science' does not require double blind studies. Science, at least, what I consider to be 'Science' only requires that when you make statements of fact that there is a possible (even if not practical) way in which those statements can be falsified.

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The authors claim it was double blind. It was published in a peer reviewed journal, implying that the editors and review panel members agreed that it was double blind.

Why do you think it was not double blind? Are you focusing on procedural issues in order to move the discussion away from the point that this study found positive effects from using hallucinogens?

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

If they claim a double blind, it should be a double blind, otherwise it will pull the whole study into question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_blind_test

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

1)

MsTerry - are you bothered by the possibility that shrooms may have a positive effect, is there another issue? Or are you simply being obstructionist?

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P3, what bothers me with studies like this, is an applied generalization after studying 36 people. Out of the 36, roughly 20 had some effects that were noticeable, which caused people to jump on to this bandwagon.
Does that mean that the 16 didn't get it? Or does that mean Drugs and the like are a highly personal experience?
Just like alternative medicine works for some people, Allopathy does not work for everybody. There are no guarantees for medicine, and that has been my point all along.
Not many studies will have a 100% succes rate (even poisons don't), because we don't really know how the body works.

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

Why do you think it was not double blind?

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Oral psilocybin (30 mg/70 kg) was administered on one of two or three sessions, with methylphenidate (40 mg/70 kg) administered on the other session(s)

They were testing the effect of psilocybin, and so methylphenidate (Ritalin) was used for the control group.

Double-blind doesn't mean 'placebo,' double blind means neither the subject nor the experimenter knows which is the subject and which is the control.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Oral psilocybin (30 mg/70 kg) was administered on one of two or three sessions, with methylphenidate (40 mg/70 kg) administered on the other session(s)

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

P3, what bothers me with studies like this, is an applied generalization after studying 36 people. Out of the 36, roughly 20 had some effects that were noticeable, which caused people to jump on to this bandwagon.

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That is not an accurate summary of what was reported. Your number, 20, is 5 to 20% low, and the subjects who responded did not have 'some effects that were noticeable' they reported very significant responses.

23 of the 36 (63.8% - I suspect they rounded that up :-) 'indicated that the experience increased well-being or life satisfaction"

67% - 24 out of 36, rated it among the five most spiritually significant experiences of their lives ;

58% 21 out of 36, rated the psilocybin-occasioned experience as being among the five most personally meaningful experiences of their lives

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Does that mean that the 16 didn't get it?

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What other 16? Do you mean the other 12 who did not rate it among the five most spiritually significant experiences of their lives?

I could be wrong, but mathematically there is no way of knowing how much overlap there is between these different groups (21 of 36, 24 of 36, etc). 100% of the subjects could have had a major effect. The categories were not mutually exclusive.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

P3, what bothers me with studies like this, is an applied generalization after studying 36 people. Out of the 36, roughly 20 had some effects that were noticeable, which caused people to jump on to this bandwagon.
Does that mean that the 16 didn't get it? Or does that mean Drugs and the like are a highly personal experience? ...

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So don't be so bothered. Why are you applying a generalization? I don't think the authors did. I think they were looking for subjective effects from the participants as well as objective observations from family members. It's true the family members weren't interviewed in this follow up study, but they were in the original study and the family members verified the comments of the participants.

The participants were carefully screened which means they were not from the "general population." That makes them different and generalizations are difficult to make. There are no secret agendas here MsTerry, that I could see.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

... Just like alternative medicine works for some people, Allopathy does not work for everybody. There are no guarantees for medicine, and that has been my point all along. ...

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No no no. Psilocybin works for EVERYBODY except the brain dead. The after effects are what the researchers were investigating. This is one reason that double-blindness is kind of pointless in psychedelic studies. Everyone would know who got the real stuff.

"Allopathy" does work for everybody. If you break your arm and I set the bones and put a cast on it you will heal better than if you take a homeopathic "remedy." This is another case where double blindness is pretty pointless.

If the question is whether a vitamin A pill is a better treatment for the common cold than placebo, double blindness makes sense.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

...
Not many studies will have a 100% succes rate (even poisons don't), because we don't really know how the body works.

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If I give you enough lead or arsenic or nicotine or water you WILL die, 100%. There is an LD 100 for every substance known except LSD. Even that will kill you, I suppose, if you take enough to thin your blood to the point it no longer functions.

We know a great deal about how the body works. Just because you don't know doesn't mean science doesn't know.

Sure, there are a great many mysteries in medical science. But we've got the basics down pretty well. Perhaps you should try medical school, MsTerry. You might become a little more enlightened.

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

They were testing the effect of psilocybin, and so methylphenidate (Ritalin) was used for the control group.

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That is not what it says
Oral psilocybin (30 mg/70 kg) was administered on one of two or three sessions, with methylphenidate (40 mg/70 kg) administered on the other session(s)

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

. Your number, 20, is 5 to 20% low,

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P3, thanks for the "correction", I stated 'roughly 20', but if you think that 23, 24, 21 is the same as 25, I can understand your fondness for the mushrooms

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

The participants were carefully screened which means they were not from the "general population." That makes them different and generalizations are difficult to make. There are no secret agendas here MsTerry, that I could see.

-Jeff

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I recall reading reading that they were screened for being spiritual and or religious

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No no no. Psilocybin works for EVERYBODY except the brain dead. The after effects are what the researchers were investigating. This is one reason that double-blindness is kind of pointless in psychedelic studies. Everyone would know who got the real stuff.

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If it works for everyone the result would be the same, wouldn't it?

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"Allopathy" does work for everybody. If you break your arm and I set the bones and put a cast on it you will heal better than if you take a homeopathic "remedy."

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Jeff, you are comparing apples and oranges and you know it.
Allopathic remedies DO NOT work for everybody, if that was true, you could just call up any doctor, tell her what's ailing and voila, they give you the right remedy, which cures you instantly.
Do you really think you can claim that setting bones and putting a cast on is allopathy?

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If I give you enough lead or arsenic or nicotine or water you WILL die, 100%. There is an LD 100 for every substance known except LSD. Even that will kill you, I suppose, if you take enough to thin your blood to the point it no longer functions.

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Yes, Jeff, but my point is that the dose would be different for everybody. And you are talking about overdosing, which is not the same

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We know a great deal about how the body works. Just because you don't know doesn't mean science doesn't know.

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This is a pathetic statement, Jeff
Tell me then, what is it that makes the heart beat?

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Sure, there are a great many mysteries in medical science. But we've got the basics down pretty well. Perhaps you should try medical school, MsTerry. You might become a little more enlightened.

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My father was a bone setter, Jeff.
Does that enlighten you?

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

...
Tell me then, what is it that makes the heart beat?
...

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Phlogiston.

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Phlogiston.

-Jeff

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Is this a test?

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Eliminative materialism ... liminativist about the [[soul]]; modern chemists are eliminativist about [[phlogiston]]; and modern physicists are eliminativist about the existence of [[lumini ... ... pseudoscientific]] theories (such as that of the [[the four humours]], the [[phlogiston theory]] of [[combustion]], and the [[vitalism|vital force]] theory of lif .

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

...

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No no no. Psilocybin works for EVERYBODY except the brain dead. The after effects are what the researchers were investigating. This is one reason that double-blindness is kind of pointless in psychedelic studies. Everyone would know who got the real stuff.

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If it works for everyone the result would be the same, wouldn't it? ...

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As St. Terrence taught (if I remember His wording): "Five dried grams in silent darkness will flatten the most resistant ego."

The result is the same. :wink:

-Jeff

They used the same subjects as study and control groups. They then compared the subject's reported experiences and found that the subjects had much different experiences when they took the psilocybin than when they had ritalin.

Again, you keep attacking their methodology. This was a double blind study. Like all studies it is open to methodological discussion, but you appear to be denying what is simply true.

And your tactic has worked. I have lost all energy to explore what is fascinating about their results because of your insistence that they didn't do what they, and their peer reviewers, all say they did.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

That is not what it says
Oral psilocybin (30 mg/70 kg) was administered on one of two or three sessions, with methylphenidate (40 mg/70 kg) administered on the other session(s)

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I sure would like to know more about this study, especially how many subjects
were tested and whether they took the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality
Inventory) before and after. Psilocybin was always my favorite psychoactive
drug, for its ability to cut through all the rationalizations for doing things i hated
or not doing things i wanted to do. By the way, the photo doesn't show psilocybin
mushrooms, does it? I thought they were red with white dots.

[quote=Braggi;63213]https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/8...searchers-say/
Psychedelic Mushrooms Can Boost Mental Health, Researchers Say
Medical research is getting a little groovier. In a new report, scientists declared that the active ingredient in hallucinogenic “magic mushrooms” had beneficial effects on test subjects who took the substance under a doctor’s supervision. What’s more, the effects lingered; 14 months after the experiment, more than half the subjects reported still feeling an increase in well-being or life satisfaction, in terms of things like feeling more creative, self-confident, flexible and optimistic [AP].
“What we’re looking at is a largely unexplored technology for brain science — it was discovered in the 1940s, set the psychiatry world ablaze in the 1950s, and was aborted by widespread recreational abuse, the reaction of the media and its confluence with the Vietnam war” [Wired News].
In the study, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology [subscription required], researchers gave test subjects doses of psilocybin, the active ingredient in some wild mushrooms, and directed the volunteers to lie down, listen to classical music, and “look inward.”
The report was accompanied by another article [subscription required] which laid out the guideline for safe and ethical research on psilocybin: The drug is only given to people with no history of psychosis or serious mental disorders, and psychological support is provided during and after the experience [Los Angeles Times]. The psilocybin researchers also stressed that they’re not encouraging people to take hallucinogens outside the controlled setting of a lab, and added that the powerful substances can provoke fear and panic.
While some researchers hope to use psilocybin for scientific inquiry into the nature of human spirituality, others have more objective medical goals. Researchers say they’ll be conducting further studies to examine whether the mushrooms can help people with such wide-ranging ailments as obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and alcoholism, as well as people who are coping with a cancer diagnosis.
For an in-depth look at how hallucinogens have snuck back into the lab, check out DISCOVER’s recent story, “Could an Acid Trip Cure Your OCD?”

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Posted in reply to the post by Moon:

... By the way, the photo doesn't show psilocybin
mushrooms, does it? I thought they were red with white dots.
...

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You're thinking of Amanita muscaria and they don't contain psilocybin. They do contain muscarole, ibotenic acid and in minor amounts a few other psychoactives. Most people don't find them very much fun, but some do. If you'd like to eat them without the attendant "high" you can boil them for about five minutes, drain, and then use like any other edible mushrooms. I'm told (by experts) that they're delicious prepared that way.

There were 36 psychonauts and I'm not sure what tests they were given. I've not read the full study but I'm looking forward to it.

Somebody search the MAPS website. I'm sure the study will be posted there and available for free.

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Moon:

By the way, the photo doesn't show psilocybin
mushrooms, does it? I thought they were red with white dots.

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Not to quibble (there's already been enough of that in this thread) but psilocybin is a substance, not a type of mushroom. In fact, most types of mushrooms have psilocybin in them, even the ones in the Safeway produce bins. A few varieties tend to have higher levels of psylocybin in them than other varieties. Red shrooms are probably the most well known. For instance there are some golden-colored varieties that are quite potent .

Thanks for the interesting post Jeff! Though the study had a small sampling, there was quite a significant majority of participants who remembered good effects. I'd say it's worth sampling a thousand or two subjects, to better define a stronger trend.

Though a common effect of psilocybin is a strong feeling of euphoria, I thought that the researchers' instructions which, "directed the volunteers to lie down, listen to classical music, and “look inward." may have unnecessarily complicated the study. Would the same effect have been achieved by administering some other euphoric? I would think that it would be more productive to study the longterm effects of the drug itself, if the volunteers were given no instructions at all about what to think, or do, or expect.

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Well, I thought I knew what that word meant. Both definitions. MsTerry threw me there. Thanks for the save Sylph.

-Jeff

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I think Sequela is more of a clinical than a casual term, hence
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
A sequela, (pronounced /sɨˈkwiːlə/, plural sequelæ) is a pathological condition resulting from a disease, injury, or other trauma. Chronic kidney disease, for instance, is sometimes a sequela of a food-borne illness; post-traumatic stress disorder may be a psychological sequela of rape.
Typically, a sequela is a chronic condition that is a complication of an acute condition that begins during the acute condition. This is in contrast to a late effect.
Sequelae of traumatic brain injury include headache and dizziness, anxiety, apathy, depression, aggression, cognitive impairments, personality changes, mania, psychosis. These may also result from ECT (Electro convulsive therapy).
There are also sequelae which occur as a result of treatment for a disease. For instance, one sequela resulting from chemotherapy used to treat cancer may be "toxic peripheral neuropathy", a painful chronic condition which is usually controlled with medication. Not everyone who is treated with chemotherapy develops toxic peripheral neuropathy but it may occur when a bactirium has effected a biothermic rythmatic condition such as choronary heart disease.

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Posted in reply to the post by Tars:

Though a common effect of psilocybin is a strong feeling of euphoria, I thought that the researchers' instructions which, "directed the volunteers to lie down, listen to classical music, and “look inward." may have unnecessarily complicated the study. Would the same effect have been achieved by administering some other euphoric? I would think that it would be more productive to study the longterm effects of the drug itself, if the volunteers were given no instructions at all about what to think, or do, or expect.

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I agree the amount of coerced testimony with more than likely 'leading' questions such as; "would you consider this a mystical experience?", takes away from the end results.
36 people is hardly enough to qualify for a far reaching conclusion.

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

They used the same subjects as study and control groups. They then compared the subject's reported experiences and found that the subjects had much different experiences when they took the psilocybin than when they had ritalin.

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I haven't even questioned the use of Ritalin!
Why did they chose Ritalin as a placebo?
Ritalin is akin to speed, and can create anxiety.
Hell, almost anything would be euphoria after Ritalin.

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

As St. Terrence taught (if I remember His wording): "Five dried grams in silent darkness will flatten the most resistant ego."

The result is the same. :wink:

-Jeff

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Saint Theresa said no such thing!

Ok, ok, I'm OCD about language, but sequela has the other meaning besides the pathological one:
https://www.answers.com/topic/sequela?cat=health

1. A pathological condition resulting from a disease.

2. A secondary consequence or result. (in my dictionary this is the first meaning)

The wikipedia article is a stub of the Disease article, so of course, it's all about disease. (Wiki is not a dictionary, nor is it perfect): Typically, a sequela is a chronic condition that is a complication of an acute condition that begins during the acute condition. This is in contrast to a late effect.
For instance and in context:
Long-Term Sequelae of Premarital Intercourse or Abstinence ... cautiously. Long-Term Sequelae of Age at First Intercourse To test the ... further in the Discussion. Long-Term Sequelae of Context of First Intercourse To investigate .

In any case, after rereading the study, I see nothing to lose and much to gain by studying this interesting substance:
"What’s more, the effects lingered; 14 months after the experiment, more than half the subjects reported still feeling an increase in well-being or life satisfaction, in terms of things like feeling more creative, self-confident, flexible and optimistic"

Jeff was right all along! You're both right!

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

1) MsTerry - are you bothered by the possibility that shrooms may have a positive effect, is there another issue? Or are you simply being obstructionist?

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PeriodThree, my understanding is that "MsTerry" is another name used by the troll formerly known as "ThePhiant", so that she can continue her trolling here on Wacco. She has certainly hooked you. I learned to stop feeding trolls in general and this one in particular, which is why I never respond to her provocations anymore. I recommend to you and everyone reading this to just ignore her.

Dixon

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

That is not an accurate summary of what was reported. Your number, 20, is 5 to 20% low, and the subjects who responded did not have 'some effects that were noticeable' they reported very significant responses.
23 of the 36 (63.8% - I suspect they rounded that up :-) 'indicated that the experience increased well-being or life satisfaction"
67% - 24 out of 36, rated it among the five most spiritually significant experiences of their lives ;
58% 21 out of 36, rated the psilocybin-occasioned experience as being among the five most personally meaningful experiences of their lives
What other 16? Do you mean the other 12 who did not rate it among the five most spiritually significant experiences of their lives?
I could be wrong, but mathematically there is no way of knowing how much overlap there is between these different groups (21 of 36, 24 of 36, etc). 100% of the subjects could have had a major effect. The categories were not mutually exclusive.

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Part of the "double blind" issue is not who took what, but the quantifiable outcome. How many were "spiritual" prior to the drug? How does one measure ANY of that, other than the participants subjective notions TO THE QUESTION itself. "Quality of life"? Come on now!
And yes, taking drugs has more components of life changing issues than last nights meal or a glass of water, but there are no "double blind" ways to determine such.
Don might know wife beaters who've taken drugs, do you think they've stopped beating their wives? I think not.
And 14 months.....why not 16? Did the stats change after 18? The methodology IS the question at times.

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Braggi wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...s/viewpost.gif
As St. Terrence taught (if I remember His wording): "Five dried grams in silent darkness will flatten the most resistant ego."The result is the same. :wink: -Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Saint Theresa said no such thing!

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No, he wrote St. TERRENCE, that guy that drinks outta the brown paper bag that hangs out at the bus stop. He took some drugs and it changed his life, don't cha' know!

Dear Dixon,


Rather than having a valid opinion, you are resorting to an ad hominem attack for no apparent reason.
The fallacy in your thinking becomes clear when you realize that Barry removes or bans people who are disturbing the board.
Now if you have anything to say regarding the discussion at hand, that would be great.
Otherwise I have to assume that you try to suppress intelligent inquisition by calling people names and steering the subject at hand into a collision course.
A troll-like behavior..................

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

PeriodThree, my understanding is that "MsTerry" is another name used by the troll formerly known as "ThePhiant", so that she can continue her trolling here on Wacco. She has certainly hooked you. I learned to stop feeding trolls in general and this one in particular, which is why I never respond to her provocations anymore. I recommend to you and everyone reading this to just ignore her.

Dixon

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Posted in reply to the post by Tars:

Not to quibble (there's already been enough of that in this thread) but psilocybin is a substance, not a type of mushroom. In fact, most types of mushrooms have psilocybin in them, even the ones in the Safeway produce bins. A few varieties tend to have higher levels of psylocybin in them than other varieties. Red shrooms are probably the most well known. For instance there are some golden-colored varieties that are quite potent . ...

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Well, stop quibbling and go back to mycology school Tars. Amanitas don't have psilocybin whether red, white or golden. There are only a few varieties that do. Paul Stamets, arguably the world's foremost mycologist, wrote a book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Psilocybin-Mu.../dp/0898158397

Read up.

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Lenny:

... Don might know wife beaters who've taken drugs, do you think they've stopped beating their wives? I think not. ...

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Actually, there are quite a few of them in the ayahuasca churches in South America. They give "testimony" similar to 12 steppers. Read up Lenny. Might learn something if you open that crusty ol' brain. :wink:

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Moon:

... Psilocybin was always my favorite psychoactive
drug, for its ability to cut through all the rationalizations for doing things i hated or not doing things i wanted to do. ...

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Thanks for sharing that Moon. Works for me the same way. There are those who experimented who weren't prepared to do that work and missed that benefit. Those folks just "got stoned" and missed out on the enlightening possibilities.

Set and setting are quite meaningful. So taught St. Timothy.

-Jeff

Yes, Paul is quite a guy
Didn't he use mushrooms to eat up "toxic waste"?
Jeff, are you knowledgeable enough to lead edible mushroom walks?

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Well, stop quibbling and go back to mycology school Tars. Amanitas don't have psilocybin whether red, white or golden. There are only a few varieties that do. Paul Stamets, arguably the world's foremost mycologist, wrote a book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Psilocybin-Mu.../dp/0898158397

Read up.

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

There are only a few varieties that do.

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Quite a few, actually. Psilocibyn is a common substance in a large range of mushrooms. Your statement would be more accurate if it said, "There are only a relatively few varieties out of the millions of types of existing fungi that do contain enough of the agent to induce a significant hallucinogenic effect in humans."

I'll pass on reading your preferred source for information, the whole topic isn't important enough to me to devote that amount of time to it. Besides which, there are a multitude of "experts" on the subject, readily available on the web. Please do continue your studies about the subject.

A partial list, just to demonstrate that there are more than "just a few" varieties:

Agrocybe farinacea Hongo, Conocybe cyanopus, Conocybe smithii, Copelandia bispora, Copelandia cambodgeniensis Copelandia cambodgeniensis is probably the most potent of the Copelandia species. Is very common on Oahu Island in Hawaii., Copelandia cyanescens
Copelandia magic mushrooms are of the Cyanescens variety (nick-named: Hawaiian) will give a very intense and wild trip, very confronting. The effects are very strong and suitable for experienced trippers only. The trip can last for 8 hours. From www.thefane.org: Copelandia occurs on soil and dung in Florida, Louisiana, Hawaii, Central America, Brazil, the Philipines and Eastern Australia. It is cultivated on cow and buffalo dung on Bali.
Copelandia tropicalis, Galerina steglechii, Gymnopilus luteofolius, More info: https://www.mykoweb.com
Gymnopilus spectabilis More info: https://www.mykoweb.com
Gymnopilus purpuratus, Inocybe aeruginascens, Inocybe haemacta, Inocybe corydalina var. erinaceomorpha, Panaeolina foenisecii, Panaeolus africanus, Panaeolus antillarum, Panaeolus sphinctrinus, Panaeolus subbalteatus,

Pluteus salicinus From www.thefane.org: This mushroom grows throughout North America on dung and well manured grounds in the Spring through the Fall. The cap has a cinnamon brown band around the edge. It has a blackish purple sporeprint. It is widely distributed in North America, South America, Europe, middle Siberia, Africa, and the Hawaiian archipelago.
Psilocybe arcana, Psilocybe aucklandii, Psilocybe australiana
Psilocybe aztecorum, Psilocybe azurescens Psilocybe Azurescens (or blue psilocybe) is a very potent species, if not the most potent of all the psilocybin mushroom species. The Psilocybe Azurescens is only for the very experienced psychonaut. It is the psilocybin that colors them azur (blue). The Azurescens is quite difficult to cultivate, what explains that they are hard to come by.
Psilocybe baeocystis, Psilocybe bohemica From "New Aspects of the Occurrence, Chemistry, and Cultivation of European Hallucinogen Mushrooms", by Jochen Gartz:
These mushrooms were already found in Czechoslovakia near Sazava in 1942. They blue consistently after bruising and spontaneously in the age. The fruit bodies grow up to 15 cm high on humus and wood chips in the woods. The species is widespread in Czechoslovakia (9) and it will probably be reported from many other European countries in the next years. Recent finds in Austria and Germany support this claim. The analysis of fruit bodies revealed psilocybin, baeocystin and in some cases psilocin. Psilocybin levels varied from 0.11% up to 1.34% by dry weight (9). The content of psilocybin and baeocystin was highest in the caps of the mushrooms. Psilocybin content flucatuates between 0.2 and 1.4 % in dried Psilocybe Bohemica.
Psilocybe brasiliensis, Psilocybe caerulescens From www.thefane.org: Also referred to as the Landslide mushroom. Gordon Wasson's first ingestion of the sacred mushroom consisted of Psilocybe Caerulescens received at a velada conducted by Maria Sabina in Huatla de Jimenenez, Mexico on the night of June 29/30, 1955. The Landslide Mushroom can be found in late spring and summer on disturbed land throughout central Mexico. It is also reported in Venezuela and Brazil.
Psilocybe caerulipes, Psilocybe columbiana,Psilocybe cubensis Cubensis is the most popular of the psilocybe magic mushrooms. Cubensis is quite potent and relatively easy to grow. Probably it is the most cultivated psychoactive mushroom.
Psilocybe cyanescens,

From: mycoweb.
Pileus: Cap 2-4.5 cm broad, convex, becoming nearly plane with a low umbo; margin striate, often wavy, sometimes upturned in age; surface smooth, sticky when moist, hygrophanous, brown, fading to yellow-brown or buff; flesh thin, brittle in age, bruising blue.
Lamellae: Gills adnate to seceding, close when young, subdistant in age, pale cinnamon brown, becoming dark grey-brown, edges lighter than the faces, mottled from spores at maturity.
Stipe: Stipe 3-6 cm tall, 3-6 mm thick, equal to sometimes enlarged at the base, the latter with conspicuous thickened mycelium (rhizomorphs); surface white, smooth to silky, bruising blue; veil fibrillose, forming a superior, evanescent hairy, annular zone.
Spores: Spores 9-12 x 6-8 µm, elliptical, smooth, with an apical pore; spore print purple-brown to purple-grey.
Habitat: Scattered to gregarious on woody debris, leaf litter, and wood chips; fruiting from late summer in watered areas to mid-winter.
Edibility: Hallucinogenic.
Comments: Psilocybe cyanescens is recognized by a chestnut-brown, striate, wavy-margined cap that soon fades to yellow brown or buff, and blue-staining fruiting body. Because of its hallucinogenic properties, it is sometimes the subject of experimentation, a potentially dangerous practice because of toxic look-alikes in Galerina, Conocybe and Inocybe.

Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa

Psilocybe fimetaria

Psilocybe heimii

Psilocybe hispanica

Psilocybe hoogshagenii

Psilocybe liniformans var. americana

Psilocybe mexicana From www.thefane.org: Reported to grow in limestone regions at elevations between 4,500 and 5,500 feet in southern Mexico and Guatemala. It fruits from June until October and is found among moss or herbs along roadsides, humid meadows, cornfields, and also in the neighborhood of deciduous forests. Psilocybe Mexicana was collected along with other species by the Wassons and French mycologist Roger Heim during several field trips to Mexico around 1958. Heim's assistant Roger Cailleux managed to grow this and other species in the laboratory. Professor Heim sent the dried specimens to Albert Hofmann and his colleagues Arthur Bracke and Hans Kobel who successfully extracted and subsequently identified the chemical psychedelics, psilocyn and psilocybin, at the Sandoz laboratories in Switzerland
Psilocybe natalensis

Psilocybe pelliculosa

Psilocybe portoricensis

Psilocybe quebecensis

Psilocybe samuiensis

Psilocybe sanctorum

Psilocybe semilanceata Liberty caps is another (common) name for Psilocybe Semilanceata. These magic mushrooms grow abundant in the wild in moderate climat zones. Lots of psychonauts in the UK go hunting for Liberty Caps in early fall (Sept / Oct). Liberty caps are medium potent. From www.thefane.org: Also known as Liberty Cap named after the Phrygian headgear worn by certain liberators during the French revolution. The headgear was also a popular symbol during the American revolution against Britain. The Liberty Cap grows in north temperate areas and is quite plentiful on the Emerald Isles of Ireland where it is commonly referred to as Pookie. It is mentioned in Thomas Keightley's The Fairy Mythology (1850) as "those pretty small delicate fungi, with their conical heads, which are named Fairy mushrooms in Ireland, where they grow so plentifully." It also grows in England as well as northwest U.S. and British Columbia and has been reported in the northeastern U.S., St. Petersburg, other parts of Europe, South Africa, Chile, northern India, Australia, and Tasmania. It fruits in grass particularly in sedge grass in the damp portions of fields during the Fall but does not grow on dung like its cousin Isidore.
Psilocybin and baeocystin content (%) in 3 dry samples of PS. Source: Jochen Gartz Psilocybe sierrae


Psilocybe silvatica

Psilocybe stuntzii

Psilocybe subaeruginosa

Psilocybe subcubensis

Psilocybe tampanensis The Tampanensis magic mushroom is also known as the truffle or philosophers stone. This magic mushroom will give you a philosophical, happy and visual trip. The Tampanensis magic mushroom can last as long as 6 hours. They look very different from the other magic mushrooms.
Psilocybe uxpanapensis

Psilocybe weilii

Psilocybe xalapensis

Psilocybe zapotecorum

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Yes, Paul is quite a guy ...

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Arrrg! I just messed up my coffee cake because I'm trying to follow this thread at the same time as baking! (And listening to one of my favorite Loreena Mckennitt songs at high volume while dancing around.)

Yes, Paul is one of the most loving, generous, spiritual people I know of.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

... Didn't he use mushrooms to eat up "toxic waste"? ...

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Thanks for the opportunity to plug his latest book: https://www.fungi.com/books/stamets.html

It's a wonderful read.

Here's a link to a video I haven't seen yet, but he's a riveting speaker, so I imagine it's well worth watching: https://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/...the_world.html

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

... Jeff, are you knowledgeable enough to lead edible mushroom walks?

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My daughter and I often go out in search of "all that the rain promises." I was newsletter editor of SOMA News for a few years. I learned a lot in that capacity.

https://www.somamushrooms.org/

Shall we plan a Waccobb foray in the fall?

-Jeff

PS. Charmoon, of Wild About Mushrooms, arranges forays throughout the year. https://www.wildaboutmushrooms.net/

He also offers some of the best prices on dried mushrooms you'll find anywhere. Check out his morels. Yummy!

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Posted in reply to the post by Tars:

Quite a few, actually. Psilocibyn is a common substance in a large range of mushrooms. Your statement would be more accurate if it said, "There are only a relatively few varieties out of the millions of types of existing fungi that do contain enough of the agent to induce a significant hallucinogenic effect in humans." ...

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Thanks for backing up my statements. Note that nearly all of these varieties belong to a very small family of mushrooms, genetically speaking. It's also worth noting that out of the tens of thousands of varieties found in splendid profusion in northern California, only one or two of those mentioned in your post are found in any quantity at all, and those are easily misidentified as noted.

To those reading Tars' list and wanting to go hunting for the "good ones," forget about it. Much safer to find a grower and acquire them from an experienced source. I do a lot of mushroom hunting but I never even bother to look for the "ones that turn blue." Also note, there are many mushrooms that turn blue that have none of the "magic" you might be looking for. Some of those will make you quite ill.

-Jeff

PS. Note there were no Amanitas of any kind on your list, Tars.

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Shall we plan a Waccobb foray in the fall?

-Jeff

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:thumbsup:

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Braggi wrote:
Shall we plan a Waccobb foray in the fall?

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

:thumbsup:

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Only if you agree to go and honestly identify yourself.

-Jeff

You mean, just you and me in the wild?

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Only if you agree to go and honestly identify yourself.

-Jeff

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:

Thanks for sharing that Moon. Works for me the same way. There are those who experimented who weren't prepared to do that work and missed that benefit. Those folks just "got stoned" and missed out on the enlightening possibilities.

Set and setting are quite meaningful. So taught St. Timothy.

-Jeff

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Jeff, I am shocked, shocked, to learn that you indulged in a healing process before its benefits were established by peer-reviewed scientific studies. Isn't that what you castigate others for doing?

Where's the scientific study of "set and setting"? Or are we now to accept the testimony of the saints?

I do think you change your standards of argumentation to accommodate your own experience, Jeff. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that; I just wish you'd allow the same slack to others.

Hummingbear

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Posted in reply to the post by Hummingbear:

Jeff, I am shocked, shocked, to learn that you indulged in a healing process before its benefits were established by peer-reviewed scientific studies. Isn't that what you castigate others for doing? ...

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Heh heh heh. No, that's not what I do nor is it what I did.

I "indulged" in a method that every informed person knows works and that was relatively inexpensive for me.

See the differences? :):

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Posted in reply to the post by Hummingbear:

... Where's the scientific study of "set and setting"? Or are we now to accept the testimony of the saints? ...

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There is a vast literature supporting the validity of set and setting (and you know it). Much of that is "scientifically" validated which provided a valid background for the study under discussion. St. Timothy was a pioneer in the field, again, as you know. See also Stan Grof's work. ... many others.

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Posted in reply to the post by Hummingbear:

... I do think you change your standards of argumentation to accommodate your own experience, Jeff. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that; I just wish you'd allow the same slack to others.

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That's your opinion, old friend. I think I remain pretty consistent. I have awe and respect for reality and I hope to experience a whole lot more of it before I die. I wish the same for others. Sometimes I need help separating reality from fantasy. I try to return the favor when I can.

-Jeff

:lol2:

[quote=decterlove;63236]
they d i d n u thi n g 444 mi my nd.....i reap peet...................... ............
..... i .......... .............. ........................ . . ...........
l.. ................. . . . . .......
.......... .................. i ......................
.........nuth......................................ing...........................wow...

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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi;
[SIZE=3:

Psyche.............delic Mush.............rooms Can Boo...st Ment......al H....eal.th, R.................e...........se.........ar.chers ......Say[/size]

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

PeriodThree, my understanding is that "MsTerry" is another name used by the troll formerly known as "ThePhiant", so that she can continue her trolling here on Wacco. She has certainly hooked you. I learned to stop feeding trolls in general and this one in particular, which is why I never respond to her provocations anymore. I recommend to you and everyone reading this to just ignore her. Dixon

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You are on to something, Dixon.
When a smart women comes along and stands up to others and speaks for herself with reason, facts AND compassion but fiercely, I usually call her names and besmirch her character as well. Really gets to the issue at hand. Really! Ok, maybe, maybe not. Know what I mean?
I didn't think so. This part is not even worth the :2cents:

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Ah, Lenny, Lenny, Lenny--what are we gonna do with you? For some reason, you would like to jump to the unsupported and uncharitable conclusion that I object to our local troll for all the wrong reasons. Allow me to pop your bubble with some facts:

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Lenny, there you have it! Isn't Dixon Brilliant when it comes to facts!

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Posted in reply to the post by PeriodThree:

I am almost positive that you have not read the actual study - I know I didn't want to pay $30 to read it (doesn't information want to be free :-)

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See attachments.

Lenny,
Dixon doesn't like to be contradicted in public especially not by a woman. Since I have exposed the fallacy in his rigid thinking a few times, he has made it a policy to form a possie against me.
But I love him anyways, and I hope that some day he'll find the woman he deserves.

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Posted in reply to the post by Lenny:

You are on to something, Dixon.
When a smart women comes along and stands up to others and speaks for herself with reason, facts AND compassion but fiercely, I usually call her names and besmirch her character as well. Really gets to the issue at hand. Really! Ok, maybe, maybe not. Know what I mean?
I didn't think so. This part is not even worth the :2cents:

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Oooops! Somehow I accidentally sent that one before it was finished. Sorry, folks! Here's the finished version:

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Lenny:

You are on to something, Dixon.
When a smart women comes along and stands up to others and speaks for herself with reason, facts AND compassion but fiercely, I usually call her names and besmirch her character as well...

---

Ah, Lenny, Lenny, Lenny--what are we gonna do with you? For some reason, you would like to jump to the unsupported and uncharitable conclusion that I object to our local troll for all the wrong reasons. Allow me to pop your bubble with some facts:

When she was known as ThePhiant, I tried on a number of occasions to reason with her, assuming that she was arguing in good faith. This assumption was partly due to the fact that often her posts are entirely reasonable. What happened was that I found myself getting more and more frustrated with her, quite beyond the usual frustration we get in trying to reason with those we may disagree with.

Analyzing what was going on and looking back over her responses (both to me and to others), I saw the pattern: She would quite consistently draw inferences that really weren't implied, even though she's intelligent enough to know better, and then needle the person whose message she had thus distorted. Other times she would seize upon some minor point and get as much juice out of it as possible, needling the person for as long as she could induce them to continue the conversation. Other times, she launches unfounded attacks on someone she wants to get a rise out of. If you look through her archived posts, you will see these trollish behaviors quite consistently, mixed in with some entirely reasonable posts.

Being fairly new to Internet chatlists, I didn't know much about trolls until trying in good faith to reason with ThePhiant/MsTerry taught me to recognize the smell, and now I have learned not to respond to their provocations. (If you have any doubt about her blatant attempts at provocation, her post #60 in this very thread will give you the most recent of many examples).

Be assured, Lenny, that I'm not alone in seeing her as a troll. In fact, she was banned from Wacco for her trolling, but got around the ban through the dishonest expedient of using other pseudonyms. Why do you think she calls herself MsTerry (mystery)?

Lenny, I can understand that, as something of a right-winger on Wacco, you could feel a kinship with whomever seems to agree with you. But that doesn't mean that my objections to MsTerry are based on the bad reasons you'd like to assume, and I must say it's a bit obnoxious for you to jump to such insulting conclusions about my motivations, and to publish them publicly.

Dixon

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Allow me to pop your bubble with some facts:

When she was known as ThePhiant, I tried on a number of occasions to reason with her, assuming that she was arguing in good faith. This assumption was partly due to the fact that often her posts are entirely reasonable. What happened was that I found myself getting more and more frustrated with her, quite beyond the usual frustration we get in trying to reason with those we may disagree with.

Analyzing what was going on and looking back over her responses (both to me and to others), I saw the pattern: She would quite consistently draw inferences that really weren't implied, even though she's intelligent enough to know better, and then needle the person whose message she had thus distorted. Other times she would seize upon some minor point and get as much juice out of it as possible, needling the person for as long as she could induce them to continue the conversation. Other times, she launches unfounded attacks on someone she wants to get a rise out of. If you look through her archived posts, you will see these trollish behaviors quite consistently, mixed in with some entirely reasonable posts.

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Dixon, I'm really sad and sorry you are peeing on the memory of our beloved ThePhiant!

ThePhiant died of late stage breast cancer, as you should know. MsTerry is a friend of her, who ThePhiant allowed to live in a trailer on her property, west of 116, with a view on our Laguna de Santa Rosa.

This is all well documented in peer reviewed literature.

If you do a more thorough text analysis of MsTerry's postings - a skill we should be Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher grateful for, who applied it to great effect in his debunking of Jesus's Life and other Don Don tales - you will agree with me that ThePhiant and MsTerry are two intelligences - the first widely superior to the second; unless of course MsTerry got in bed with "braggi" and had her "mental health" "boosted" with too much of a good thing, the psilocybin elixer.

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

Lenny,
.......I hope that some day he'll find the woman he deserves.

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And here I thought you were nice!

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Ah, Lenny, Lenny, Lenny--what are we gonna do with you? For some reason, you would like to jump to the unsupported and uncharitable conclusion that I object to our local troll for all the wrong reasons. Allow me to pop your bubble with some facts:

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It is not my habit to swear on this site, so please excuse me for using a Shakespearean word, but if you were a woman calling you a "cunt" would be appropriate for your condescending attitude at the beginning in your above reply. You don't know me that well to do so.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

When she was known as ThePhiant, I tried on a number of occasions to reason with her, assuming that she was arguing in good faith. This assumption was partly due to the fact that often her posts are entirely reasonable. What happened was that I found myself getting more and more frustrated with her, quite beyond the usual frustration we get in trying to reason with those we may disagree with.
Analyzing what was going on and looking back over her responses (both to me and to others), I saw the pattern: She would quite consistently draw inferences that really weren't implied, even though she's intelligent enough to know better, and then needle the person whose message she had thus distorted. Other times she would seize upon some minor point and get as much juice out of it as possible, needling the person for as long as she could induce them to continue the conversation. Other times, she launches unfounded attacks on someone she wants to get a rise out of. If you look through her archived posts, you will see these trollish behaviors quite consistently, mixed in with some entirely reasonable posts.

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I've had similar experiences in exchanges with a few folks on this site, and that is the nature of this medium. Inferences are drawn, some correct, some less so, others to clarify the writer's point. If you detect patterns as you note above, then you simply call it out as you see it, agree to disagree, and end that exchange. The "needle" part is all ad hominem and is easily brushed aside. As it "needles" you, then that is not THEIR problem.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Being fairly new to Internet chatlists, I didn't know much about trolls until trying in good faith to reason with ThePhiant/MsTerry taught me to recognize the smell, and now I have learned not to respond to their provocations. (If you have any doubt about her blatant attempts at provocation, her post #60 in this very thread will give you the most recent of many examples).

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You have an interesting choice in language, "needle" "smell" and the fact that you "know" that SHE and some other woman are one-in-the-same. It's just my observation.
I am thankful for not meeting with this other ThePiant entity as I find to many posts and folks a waste of my electrons, and like you, I don't need the aggravation. But as far as Ms Terry, I've never found her to have the characteristics you so well describe. Now of course I can be wrong, and often am, but so far, WITH the exception of Don (whom she should marry) she has not done what you've written. And I believe I've tangled with her a bit (enough to respect her.along with a few others here), and she's shown none of what you write. So I have to really wonder about you.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Be assured, Lenny, that I'm not alone in seeing her as a troll. In fact, she was banned from Wacco for her trolling, but got around the ban through the dishonest expedient of using other pseudonyms. Why do you think she calls herself MsTerry (mystery)?

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She named herself that 'cause it's a COOL NAME, no?
Unless you are a moderator, how do you know that banned person and she are the same?
And if you ARE a moderator,then you're a cad for outing her to me, the public.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Lenny, I can understand that, as something of a right-winger on Wacco, you could feel a kinship with whomever seems to agree with you. But that doesn't mean that my objections to MsTerry are based on the bad reasons you'd like to assume, and I must say it's a bit obnoxious for you to jump to such insulting conclusions about my motivations, and to publish them publicly. Dixon

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There is an expression in the chatlist world that, as a newbie you may be unfamiliar with. It goes something like this:
BWAHAHAHAAHAH!
and it is usually directed at the respondent party, like you in this case.
But let me clarify that rude expression.
While I may feel a certain electronic affection for Ms Terry, I also have a "kinship" with those that call me out of my comfort zone to clarify my own thoughts, and those include those that find my posts worthy of comment, which include Zeno, Period Three, Braggi, Valley Oak, and a few others.
And while I am obnoxious, I did not "jump" to the conclusion posted, as you laid a direct line to it. While I find her intelligent, factual, reasoned, humorous, and compassionate, you may find her to be a troll. We differ and there it ends, and in my opinion you really should check yo' self!

It is amazing that when you write nice things to people, some are willing to use it against you.
I do wish him well, I admire his verbose verbiage, it's just that he needs a woman in his life to create some balance about life.
Am I wrong for saying that or just for thinking that?

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Posted in reply to the post by Lenny:

And here I thought you were nice!

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Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry:

I do wish him well, I admire his verbose verbiage, it's just that he needs a woman in his life to create some balance about life.
Am I wrong for saying that or just for thinking that?

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The poor boy has been bitten by the Polly Baggi Bug. Since then ... Well, yes, we're all wrong for even thinking that!

PS quién bien te quiere te hará llorar!

Lennie, sometimes you make me shake with laughter. :thumbsup:
Especially when you drop all the polish,

Dixon is a good guy, been around for a long time. He writes so well that it can be convincing even if you don't agree. His caveat is that he wants to convince and convert, rather than agree to disagree.

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Posted in reply to the post by Lenny:

I
She named herself that 'cause it's a COOL NAME, no?
Unless you are a moderator, how do you know that banned person and she are the same?
And if you ARE a moderator,then you're a cad for outing her to me, the public.

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Mateo 5:4 "Bienaventurados los que llorar, porque ellos serán consolados".

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Posted in reply to the post by Zeno Swijtink:

PS quién bien te quiere te hará llorar!

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I now have a copy of "Psilocybin can occasion mystical experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance" by Griffiths, R R, et al. 2006, Psychopharmacology, 187: 268-283.

Let me know privately if you wish to read this.