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To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Activist and educator, Peggy Hall, shares her story of successfully lobbying her local County Supervisors/ Commissioners to strike down a mandatory face mask policy in Orange County, California.
Peggy says the local health emergency has been unlawfully prolonged so that her county may collect federal and state emergency funds, she says that this is fraud, and then she threatened to sue.
Deputy Health Director Nichole Quick recently resigned from her office after Peggy Hall and her supporters applied some pressure.
Peggy’s website aims to help other concerned citizens across the country to repeat her victory with an action plan, research and templates for letters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Qs...ture=emb_title
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ture=emb_title
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Other than being a royal pain in the face, masks don't really hurt us. They may not help stop the spread of the disease, but they surely don't contribute to it. On the other hand, there is a possibility that they may slow the spread down a bit. Who in their right mind, other than our inglorious leader, would be thoughtless enough to risk the health of those they come into contact with by not wearing a mask? Yes, money may be an issue, but so what? Given that she lives in Orange County, the home of the John Birch Society, I suspect she is motivated only by right-wing, non-thinking, ideology.
Old Granddad
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
O.G. - actually there are health downsides to mask wearing: the first I found just now is -
The results of the first randomized clinical trial (RCT) to study the efficacy of cloth masks were published in the journal BMJ Open.
The trial saw 1607 hospital healthcare workers across 14 hospitals in the Vietnamese capital, Hanoi, split into three groups: those wearing medical masks, those wearing cloth masks and a control group based on usual practice, which included mask wearing.
Workers used the mask on every shift for four consecutive weeks.
The study found respiratory infection was much higher among healthcare workers wearing cloth masks.
ScienceDaily: Cloth masks: Dangerous to your health?
and other studies, which can be found if you look. actually you can feel the effects easily after 15 minutes, right?
additionally, doctors have repeatedly referred to issues like decreased oxygen being problematic; cutting down normal exposure to airborne particles then being exposed to them putting greater strain on immune system response; etc.
and yes, these health deterrents are balanced against the degree of containment of spread they may offer.
Federal funds flowing to cities and states in relation to mandated masks is a factor which clearly skews medical decisions. So it's not just "so what"... money ought not determine LOTS of what's happening all around us, but certainly DOES, so they're not the right decisions, they're the profitable ones.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
It's no wonder we can't seem to control this virus. With fools like Peggy belching BS. If masks didn't cut infection why has every surgeon used one for the last 150 years. Every health department in every country is just fooling with you???? Every epidemiologist is wrong and some internet troll is right??
Use the brain God gave you.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
uh, michael:
Jude
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...8_13-57-53.png
Should You Wear a Mask to Prevent COVID-19?
Posted on: Tuesday, May 19th 2020 at 5:00 pm
Written By: GreenMedInfo Research Group
States are increasingly mandating the use of face masks in public places, but evidence suggests face coverings do little to reduce risk of illness and, in some cases, may even increase your likelihood of contamination.
As recently as February 29, 2020, U.S. Surgeon General Jerome Adams tweeted, “Seriously people — STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching coronavirus … ”[i]
Yet, in a dramatic about-face, weeks later the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said they recommend wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where social distancing measures are difficult to maintain, especially in areas with significant community-based transmission, and stated, “CDC also advises the use of simple cloth face coverings to slow the spread of the virus and help people who may have the virus and do not know it from transmitting it to others.”[ii]
At the state level, an increasing number of states have put in place recommendations and requirements for workers and customers to wear face masks in public. In Illinois, for instance, everyone is advised to wear a mask basically anytime they leave their home, including while shopping at grocery stores, getting food from drive thrus or curbside pickups, visiting a health care provider or traveling on public transportation.[iii]
In a statement released by the Illinois State Police, it’s stated, “Illinois State Police will work with local law enforcement to enforce this order but adhering to the order will save lives and it is the responsibility of every Illinoisan to do their part.”[iv] In other locales, like Harris County, Texas, it’s been said that failing to wear masks in public could result in a $1,000 fine,[v] an order that’s being challenged in court for being unconstitutional.[vi]
But as widespread advice to wear masks proliferates the U.S. — and a police state to enforce their wearing grows — the question remains: does wearing a mask really prevent the spread of COVID-19?
Face Masks Led to ‘No Significant Reduction’ in Virus Transmission
The idea of wearing a face mask, according to the CDC, is not so much to protect the wearer, but rather to benefit the population overall. If you’re infected with COVID-19 and don’t have symptoms, the theory is that wearing a mask could prevent you from inadvertently infecting someone else when you’re out and about.[vii]
Studies, however, don’t bear this out. In a May 2020 systematic review published in Emerging Infectious Diseases — a journal published by the CDC — researchers identified 10 trials that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing cases of influenza in the community. “In pooled analysis,” they stated, “we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks.”[viii]
This included a study of face mask use among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage — no major difference in the risk of influenza infection was found between the mask wearers and non-mask wearers. Two studies in university settings were also included, looking into the effectiveness of face masks among student hall residents for five months.
“The overall reduction in ILI [influenza-like illness] or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies,” the researchers found.[ix]
Surgical Masks, Cotton Masks Ineffective at Filtering SARS-Cov-2
A study of four patients with COVID-19 led to similar results — that wearing masks does little to block SARS-Cov-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.[x] Researchers asked the patients to cough five times into a petri dish while wearing no mask, a surgical mask and then a cotton mask. They swabbed the inner and outer mask surfaces afterward, finding that while most swabs from the inner mask surfaces were negative for SARS-CoV-2, all swabs from the outer mask surfaces were positive.
This raises two important points. First, as the study noted, “Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS-CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients.” Second, the fact that the outer surface was more contaminated highlights the problems that can occur if a person touches the outside of their mask — thereby contaminating their hands. It’s possible that air leakage around the edge of the mask allowed the outer mask to become contaminated, or that the small aerosols of SARS-CoV-2 were able to penetrate the masks.
Either way, “[t]hese observations support the importance of hand hygiene after touching the outer surface of masks,” according to the researchers, but the likelihood of the general public, including children, washing their hands every time they touch their mask is small. A 2010 study added that while some evidence suggests wearing masks or respirators when you’re ill may protect others, there is less evidence on mask wearing to prevent becoming infected, especially in real-world settings:
“In conclusion there remains a substantial gap in the scientific literature on the effectiveness of face masks to reduce transmission of influenza virus infection.While there is some experimental evidence that masks should be able to reduce infectiousness under controlled conditions, there is less evidence on whether this translates to effectiveness in natural settings. There is little evidence to support the effectiveness of face masks to reduce the risk of infection.”[xi]
If COVID-19 Is Aerosolized, Surgical and Cotton Masks Ineffective
The idea of cloth face coverings preventing transmission was based on the idea that COVID-19 is primarily spread via large respiratory droplets. Research now suggests, however, that SARS-CoV-2 may remain suspended in aerosols for up to 16 hours.[xii]
It’s also been found that COVID-19 particles may be as small as 1 to 4 microns in size,[xiii] while surgical masks only protect against particles larger than 100 microns.[xiv],[xv] Again, surgical masks are intended to protect the wearer against large droplets or splashes of bodily fluids, while protecting others from the wearer’s respiratory emissions.
Even the CDC states that surgical masks do “not provide the wearer with a reliable level of protection from inhaling smaller airborne particles and is not considered respiratory protection.”[xvi] On the contrary, an N95 respirator is a type of mask with a tight-fitting face seal designed for health care workers who may be exposed to hazardous small particle aerosols.
In the case of respiratory virus and influenza, rates of infection were double among those wearing surgical masks compared to those wearing N95 respirators.[xvii] This suggests N95 respirators offer some protection, but not only are they in short supply, they’re only typically worn by health care providers performing certain high-risk procedures.
Wearing a Mask May Increase Virus Transmission, Cause Adverse Effects
The Emerging Infectious Diseases review pointed out that in lower-income settings reusable cloth masks are more likely to be used than disposable medical masks due to cost and availability. Indeed, reusable cloth masks are what’s being promoted across much of the U.S., even though research is scarce into the use of such masks, and wearing them the “wrong” way could backfire.
“Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission,” according to the study.[xviii] Speaking with Forbes, Dr. Eli Perencevich, a professor of medicine and epidemiology at the University of Iowa’s College of Medicine, agreed:
“The average healthy person does not need to have a mask, and they shouldn’t be wearing masks … There’s no evidence that wearing masks on healthy people will protect them. They wear them incorrectly, and they can increase the risk of infection because they’re touching their face more often.”[xix]
“Wearing a mask is tricky,” he added, “because it can create a false sense of security. If you don’t wash your hands before you take off the mask and after you take off your mask, you could increase your risk.”[xx] There are some risks inherent to wearing a mask, as well, such as hypoxia.
One study found a decrease in the oxygen saturation of arterial pulsations (SpO2) and a slight increase in pulse rates among surgeons wearing a surgical mask, and the decrease was more prominent in surgeons over the age of 35.[xxi] The risks may be higher for N95 respirators, which may impede gaseous exchange and increase workload on the metabolic system, particularly in pregnant health care workers.
“The benefits of using N95 mask to prevent serious emerging infectious diseases should be weighed against potential respiratory consequences associated with extended N95 respirator usage,” researchers concluded.[xxii] Headaches,[xxiii] dizziness, shortness of breath and even reduced working efficiency and ability to make correct decisions are also common following prolonged usage of N95 respirators.[xxiv]
Even WHO Warns of Mask Risks
The World Health Organization (WHO), while recommending that people with symptoms wear a medical mask, states, “the wide use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not supported by current evidence and carries uncertainties and critical risks.” They also warn that the following potential risks should be taken into account:[xxv]
· Self-contamination that can occur by touching and reusing contaminated masks
· Potential breathing difficulties, depending on type of mask used
· False sense of security, leading to potentially less adherence to other preventive measures, such as physical distancing and hand hygiene
· Diversion of mask supplies and consequent shortage of masks for health care workers
· Diversion of resources from effective public health measures, such as hand hygiene
The potential benefits of mask wearing become even more dubious when it comes to the cloth masks now being widely used across the U.S. In a 2015 study led by Raina MacIntyre at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, 1,607 health care workers in Vietnam were given either disposable medical masks or reusable cloth masks that could be washed at home at the end of the day.[xxvi]
Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97%, compared to 44% for medical masks, and those who wore cloth masks were much more likely to be infected with a virus. The results were so poor that the study cautioned against the use of cloth masks in a health care setting, stating that moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration could increase infection risk, and researchers stated, “Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally.”[xxvii]
“There's just not a lot of evidence for cloth masks in the community,” MacIntyre told New Scientist.[xxviii] In Finland, meanwhile, COVID-19 restrictions are being eased without the recommendation for widespread mask wearing. Since research findings into the benefits of face masks vary, the government intends to conduct a detailed study before recommending that the general population wear them.[xxix]
While the evidence for wearing masks remains scarce, opposition to mask wearing is mounting among Americans, with reasons ranging from not believing it’s necessary to feeling it’s unjust for the government to force people to wear a face covering.[xxx] Such moral and ethical controversies are likely to continue, especially since masks may fail to protect people from illness as intended.
References/Footnotes for this article are here
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
FYI - I am renaming this thread "To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question"
(originally named: "Activist Peggy Hall Scores Victory in Orange County Against Face Masks")
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Goat Rock Ukulele:
It's no wonder we can't seem to control this virus. With fools like Peggy belching BS. If masks didn't cut infection why has every surgeon used one for the last 150 years. Every health department in every country is just fooling with you???? Every epidemiologist is wrong and some internet troll is right??
Use the brain God gave you.
I see that Jude went into great depth, before I could try to do that in a couple of lines :wink: - so to be contrarian again I'll point out one of the flaws in that analysis too:
Quote:
“Wearing a mask is tricky,” he added, “because it can create a false sense of security.
I'm not convinced that we have a good argument against them, if this is the worst thing that can be said.
One reason there's such confusion is that people aren't always making a distinction between what would be necessary to protect a surgeon as compared to what would protect someone strolling on the beach. There's been enough trouble getting people to make a distinction between protecting themselves vs. protecting others.
There's a big difference between a bicycle helmet and one used on the race course. There are big differences between masks. Also, people wear them sometimes when they're not really necessary - for example, when you ride a motorcycle across the pits they will penalize you if you don't wear your helmet. Covid masks seem pretty darn analogous. It may turn out that we rarely need them, and that the ones we commonly use aren't helpful in a situation where there's serious concentration of virus. But for now, speeds below 5mph and wear the damn thing.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Ok, let's look at some numbers, hindsight being 2020. These come from Kirk uhler, a county supervisor in placer, who has been threatened by Newsome and his crew for questioning state covid policy.
Sonoma, Napa, Marin, Yolo, Santa clara; masks required. 3 million people, 543 humans per square mile, 163 covid cases and 6 deaths per 100k population.
Solano, Sacramento, San Joaquin, Stanislaus, Merced; masks not required. 3.5 million people, 624 per square mile, 155 cases 5 deaths per 100k.
Mask requirement by this data set is meaningless. Kirk put this out a few days ago. Gavin just required masks throughout the state!
I think Newsome is doubling down on old unproven covid assumptions because he wants to keep the opening rolling. He's smart, doing stupid things, for good reasons.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
I see that Jude went into great depth, before I could try to do that in a couple of lines :wink: - so to be contrarian again I'll point out one of the flaws in that analysis too: ...
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
For Everyone's Information::heart:
After 2017 Fires, I did some research and discovered that the N100 masks were more effective that N95.
I let lotsa folks know, and I special ordered enough for them, friends and my family, through Friedman's.
Unfortuneately, Friedmans forgot to save the ones for me and my family!
So, I re-orderd some and meanwhile my daughter had ordered some on-line (which were more expensive than Friedmans, and I try to support local businesses).
Most articles and research I've seen lately about covid19, don't mention N100 .
I invite y'all to research this and share your discoveries!:heart:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I use p100 masks when the smoke is bad because they also filter organic compound pollutants. Most n95s and all n and p 100 masks have vent ports so that your exhale is unfiltered. So if you're asymptomatic they don't protect others.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by gaiasophia:
...After 2017 Fires, I did some research and discovered that the N100 masks were more effective that N95...
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Wow, thank you Rossman!
I'd never heard that before!
Now I don't know what to do...wear a cloth mask under an n95 and /or n100...
seems like the only alternative?
:heart:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
... Most n95s and all n and p 100 masks have vent ports so that your exhale is unfiltered. So if you're asymptomatic they don't protect others.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Did you mean P100 or N100 masks, Rossmen?
Gaia wrote about N100 masks.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Peggy stating that 'we are no longer in an emergency phase, that we are in a recovery phase' which is debatable
the way this recovery phase was kicked off was by Trump panicking and pushing for normalcy, days after the structures for containing the spread was getting established, digested and implemented by individuals, businesses, etc. then some state officials jumped on board. over the weeks Trump has come to almost discount that the virus is still alive in America. He has defied his own CDC policies. In suit, his followers follow, as do those having a hard time with the precautions. Understandable, no one likes the limits we have been adhering to. yet these very limits are what has brought the virus into containment and plateau-ed the escalation.
i am open to learning more about masks, their up-sides, their down-sides. like every beneficial thing, medicine can become poison if misused, & vice versa. we should be cautious about 'jumping on board' with any hypothesis. we are in a time of experimentation amongst other epidemics such as police brutality, Dreamers' rights, plus the economic disaster that is upon us, etc
yes, there are fraudulent, incredibly ignorant people in the system, like the ones misusing ventilators at Elmhurst, Hospital in NY.
the experimentation of daycares reopening, businesses taking steps to reopen, etc is an experimentation. we need to see the results of this before we make declarations about 'recovery.' this recovery process has been executed via experimentation, fueled by the fears of the president, pains of economic disaster, parents needing a break from the extra hours with their children that they are not used to handling, etc etc~ in some ways it is 'headless.' for the most part it is being constructed as best as possible, yet w/ such battles between federal and state set-ups for PPE, $, etc.
Malpractice needs to be called out~
if someone is milking the situation for money, that is wrong
but to state that all of the pre-cautions are useless
is throwing the baby out with the bath water
it's a big topic
how this Whole thing has been handled
has been very 'human'
ie. human error, trial & error
having an incompetent so-called 'leader'
w/ a CDC that has to tiptoe around his emotional fireworks,
thankful to the governors, mayors, health care workers, essential workers and citizens
who have taken the pre-cautions despite the discomfort, inconvenience, restrictions and risk to their lives and their families' lives
we are not out of the soup yet,
we are in unknown, unchartered waters still
we need to see the outcome Clearly
of this 're-opening'
masks have been one way of taking care of contagious spreading
we need to really get the facts straight on Masks
cotton masks were deemed inadequate from the beginning,
yet everyone started wearing them,
ignorantly
we need to evaluate When and Where
masks are needed,
which will be controversial
as is all of this~
and what kind of masks actually do the job
it won't be perfect
but we can improve
point is, Peggy, we are not in recovery yet,
Trump wants us to be,
we all would like that to be a reality
we started this 'recovery' thing
in the midst of the Spread.
Andrew Cuomo seems to be the clearest on his process and his thoroughness shown by NY's success rate
otherwise its been a zoo~
cases have "skyrocketed to 120,000" says Bernie in his email today, 6/21~
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Both, after the tubbs fires, then paradise burning, then kincade, and as a longtime construction worker, I've used a lot of masks. The numbers refer to % of certain size particulate filtering. The letters refer to additional filtering. The big problem with mask rating is fit. So when you get up to 95, seal becomes more important than the filter. That's why higher rated masks have a vent port. Think about breathing. When you take air in its easy to seal edges and pull through the filter. On the exhale, without a vent, you blow the mask off your face.
Today, as i did my business with unrated dust filter masks, since i gave my n95s to Sutter two months ago, my internal complaint was I can't breath. I checked myself for internalized racism, knowing that now, masks are more important for others. Earlier this day, I teased my father in law by calling him dad. I wished I could have hugged him, he's really care full, elderly and wise.
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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:
Did you mean P100 or N100 masks, Rossmen?
Gaia wrote about N100 masks.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Dr. Fauci Admits He LIED About Mask Safety!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq8iQ65p9B0
Question everything.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
i don't see / hear this as a lie
there are lots of disagreements
these days
i'm learning all about how to disagree
and respect the others' perception,
their right to perceive,
we
humans
are consistently in error,
we learn through trial & error
i believe he is telling the truth that supply for hospitals was already short
i don't understand why they did not look to the solution
which is to Mass Produce Efficient Masks
which still is not happening
Fauci is often put in tight spots
where the truth will upset the president or the people
i am a firm believer in telling the Truth
and only trust Honesty
Fauci's done a good job of speaking his truth,
simultaneously keeping his job~
the distance between him and Trump
allows for this,
at least for the time being
Trump disagrees with his administrators all the time,
he disagrees with the Constitution
and the laws often enough
in the beginning,
Burx and Fauci did not seem to see the need for masks,
this changed,
this is Life,
again i don't see Fauci as lying
He did not verbalize his reasons of concern for hospital staff,
still he did not lie
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Fauci himself acknowledges that he lied about the masks. That’s indisputable. Fauci felt it was for a good reason - to keep supplies available to the medical professionals who really needed them.
As our leading science advisor in this crisis, Fauci is required to tell the public the truth -- we don’t have enough masks for citizens now -- we must give everything to the health care workers until supplies are replenished. That would have made people aware that there were risks not wearing a mask. It’s basic information that Americans should have had so they can make informed decisions. What is NOT OK about telling the American public masks are not necessary (Beyond that it has obviously increased Covid-19's spread) it makes you doubt other things they are health advisors are putting forward. Keep in mind that America has a for profit medical system - we have to be hyper vigilant about their drugs and care they are offering.
Recently PBS FRONTLINE did an exposé on the Opioid bribery scam with Big Pharma. It’s a brilliant and compelling documentary and worth watching. You can better understand that all these agencies are often influenced by financial motivations. And that people died
because of their actions.
Fauci is meant to be a public figure, not influenced by conflicts of interests - but sadly he does have ties to big pharma and financial investments in the companies producing vaccines.
Most importantly we need to QUESTION everything. That is the point of Jimmy’s diatribe. We need to question whether the vaccines they release are safe. We need to question whether our health authorities are representing citizens or private corporations. Hundreds of thousands of people have been injured and killed by bad vaccines.
And finally if we are NOT allowed to question those in authority - and trust what they tell us - we are in trouble. That is the core of a true democracy.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
i don't see / hear this as a lie...
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Do Masks Really Protect Against Covid?
https://youtu.be/0HVapwIrdhE
If 80% of a closed population were to don a mask, COVID-19 infection rates would statistically drop to approximately one twelfth the number of infections compared to a live-virus population in which no one wore masks. Which explains why Japan (who did not do a lockdown, but the population wears masks) has only 577 deaths in their country to date.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
Fauci himself acknowledges that he lied about the masks. That’s indisputable. ...
Fauci does not use the term or idea of lying,
which is my disagreement
He admits to the reason he said masks were not necessary,
government officials, big pharma, etc etc
are 'people'
people come in all assortments
yes, we need to watch
and question
and investigate
yes, money is a motivation for corruption
yes, we need the Truth told
so that Trust can function
i still do not believe Fauci lied
or said he lied.
there is malpractice in nursing and medicine
and every other service, job on earth
because people hold these positions
and people are not always very evolved
not easy
not palatable
but earthly reality
Fauci has stuck by his knowing
about the virus, caution opening up, etc
despite complete disagreement from the so-called president
i respect and appreciate and trust him for this.
i also agree with how he sees all of that.
i like his caution~
as for vaccines,
i could not put one in my body,
my alternative is to eat well.
i've healed through Food,
from illness medicine has no clue how to heal.
Lifestyle, exercise, whole organic foods eaten via a system that knows how to feed the body
creates an immune system that is strong.
Americans are not a healthy lot typically~
just knowing how to eat
is huge
and rare~
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Critical thinking requires we look at a subject from multiple viewpoints and perspectives and not rush to conclusions based on personal political beliefs. Scientific inquiry is rigorous and on-going. It is not a place to rest but to continue your exploration ... it requires you work at it.
Unfortunately in America, we are taught to memorize information rather than question. Critical thinking is difficult but exciting. It opens up our imagination to a world of discovery and inquiry.
There is no doubt Fauci misled the public. He purposely lied about the need for masks. And undoubtedly this falsehood cost people their lives, who choose not to wear a mask (homemade or not) based on his advise. That's a serious problem - as the video shows a paper towel would have stopped transmission. We look to Fauci's leadership for guidance on best practices. This is not a small lie, it has huge implications for our collective survival. And if he lies about this - what else isn't he telling us?
Whether you trust him or not is irrelevant - it sounds like you are taking a stance based on political ideology which is worrisome. Considering what is at stake (our lives). Fauci should have told us the truth from the get go.
I realize its painful to question and investigate. It requires intellectual prowess, openness and curiosity - which we have not been taught in schools. I think it is the core of most problems in our society. We wouldn't be so quick to take a stand - but actually study the problem in depth and then thoughtfully put together our ideas in a coherent and labored analysis.
Our opinions are meaningless in the face of what is true and what is false. Keep exploring - the universe is far more complex and mysterious than our flat world perspectives can contain.
"All environmental problems are caused by simplistic thinking in a complex cyclic world..."
- Monte Kirven (environmental educator who spearheaded the rescue of the Peregrine Falcon from near extinction)
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Krystal and Saagar: Fauci ADMITS LIVE government lied about masks to preserve supplies
Krystal and Saagar react to Dr. Fauci's interview where he admits health officials downplayed the importance of masks to save PPE for healthcare workers.
https://youtu.be/_2MmX2U2V3c
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
Critical thinking requires we look at a subject from multiple viewpoints and perspectives and not rush to conclusions based on personal political beliefs. Scientific inquiry is rigorous and on-going. It is not a place to rest but to continue your exploration ... it requires you work at it.
Unfortunately in America, we are taught to memorize information rather than question. Critical thinking is difficult but exciting. It opens up our imagination to a world of discovery and inquiry. ....
I realize its painful to question and investigate. It requires intellectual prowess, openness and curiosity - which we have not been taught in schools. ..
you know, you're not wrong, but critical thinking also requires a lot of self-examination. It's a pretty short walk from seeing those around you as unable to think sufficiently critically, to thinking that "there but for the grace of god go I". We all go with 'them', sometimes. Those who 'do research' have more tools to work with when making an evaluation, but even evidence that seems pretty good can lead to some really wrong conclusions. It's worth remembering that many who have reached an opposite opinion have the same strong confidence in the path they took to get there.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Japan is an interesting country. They were on it right away like south Korea, Taiwan Singapore and Hong Kong believing they could contain like sars1. And they have an amazing health care system which seemed to avoid killing people through aggressive ventilator use. They've had enough tests for contract tracing from the beginning and are vigilant about isolation and quarantine protocol. So they quashed spread quickly and have kept numbers low. There have been almost 1000 deaths.
The whole country masked up and like south Korea and Hong Kong there appears to be the beginning of a second wave. Singapore was hit the hardest, still masked and bringing numbers down. Poverty and population density make containment difficult there. Taiwan's containment and elimination effort still almost works.
In the us as we abandon other mitigation edicts mask requirements become more strident. Masks alone will have some slowing effect on the rapidity of daily case rise, I guess, in regions where significant heard immunity hasn't developed yet, like west county.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
Do Masks Really Protect Against Covid?
https://youtu.be/0HVapwIrdhE
If 80% of a closed population were to don a mask, COVID-19 infection rates would statistically drop to approximately one twelfth the number of infections compared to a live-virus population in which no one wore masks. Which explains why Japan (who did not do a lockdown, but the population wears masks) has only 577 deaths in their country to date.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
This article was in today's paper:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...logo152x23.gif
Sweden trying out new status: Pariah state
CORONAVIRUS » Scandinavian country’s neighbors close their borders to Swedes over infection increase
By THOMAS ERDBRINK
NEW YORK TIMES
Published June 22, 2020
Updated June 24, 2020
Every summer for the past 13 years, fans of Nordic culture have gathered on the Norway side of the border with Sweden for the outdoor festival Allsang pa Grensen, which translates roughly to, “Singsong Along the Border.”
But this summer, there will not be any Swedish singers in the live broadcast event, nor will there be any Swedish fans in the audience, singing and clapping along. This year, Swedes are forbidden to enter Norway.
And Norway isn’t the only Scandinavian neighbor barring Swedes, with some exceptions, from visiting this summer. Denmark and Finland have also closed their borders to Swedes, fearing that they would bring new coronavirus infections with them.
While those countries went into strict lockdowns this spring, Sweden famously refused, and now has suffered roughly twice as many infections and five times as many deaths as the other three nations combined, according to figures compiled by The New York Times.
While reporting differences can make comparisons inexact, the overall trend is clear, as is Sweden’s new status as Scandinavia’s pariah state.
“We will miss the Swedes this year,” said Ole Evenrud, a Norwegian pop star who goes under the stage name “Ole i’Dole,” or Ole the Idol, and is a regular performer at the festival in Halden, a Norwegian border town. “But I’m OK with the borders being closed. We have been pretty clever about the way we handled corona.”
Swedish officials, including the architect of the country’s measures to stop the spread of the coronavirus, Anders Tegnell, are not amused. They say Swedes have been stigmatized by an international campaign to prove Sweden was wrong and warn their neighbors that they are going to be much more vulnerable if a second wave of the virus hits in the fall.
“We are really confident that our immunity is higher than any other Nordic country’s,” Mr. Tegnell said during a news conference last week. He added that while Sweden was not striving for so-called herd immunity, the higher level of immunity “is contributing to lower numbers of patients needing hospitalization, as well as fewer deaths per day.”
Mr. Tegnell also said that infections in Sweden “had peaked,” and were now falling, a trend reflected in The Times’s figures.
Experts in the other Scandinavian countries say the higher immunity levels have not been proven through rigorous testing, and that such talk misses a major point.
“When you see 5,000 deaths in Sweden and 230 in Norway, it is quite incredible,” said Gro Harlem Brundtland, a former prime minister of Norway and the former director of the World Health Organization, during a digital lecture at the Norwegian Academy of Science and Letters in May. “It will take a lot to even out this difference a year or two into the future.”
Continues here
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
it's now being said,
via Zach Bush
that the virus has been tested to land on the outside of masks,
not remaining on the inside,
that masks therefore are a problem
best is to hear him speak on the virus
pl be open and willing to hear what he is saying,
he is a doctor with three degrees of medicine
and more
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...969#post235969
Viruses are not what we have thought they were,
there is more to their purpose
which is age-old
their airborne nature
means people do not transmit them
tho they can through moisture droplets,
but the viruses themselves
will travel via air
this is a radical change of stride
from the allopathic view
which many already know is limited
when it comes to dealing with Health, Nutrition and Consciousness Raising
pl be open to listen to someone who
has travelled the allopathic road
only to become depressed over the outlook of the landscape
which is more like a cancer
than a fertile field of abundant Life growing there
he boils things down to Farming
with the ability to create Rich Soils,
which can transform this country, this globe's Human Health
where all the big pharma, toxic energy load, high rate of health issues so many in this country endure
heals
it takes the willingness to Change
if we want Change
and to recognize
what so many already know
about the failed systems
we are running
social change
not political change
change which interfaces with other cultures and countries
stop relying on the political system
similarly to stop using militant police
find social systems that work humanely
to resolve problems
ETC
listen
Listen
a bit
Open
to Listening
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...969#post235969
thank you Jude
for posting Zach Bush's Work!!!!!!!
(this is not conspiracy theory, i promise)
until listening to this
i would not have Known,
Masks are not helping us,
they are a way to spread the virus,
tho the Virus
is not what we think it is
and
is not what is killing people,
pl learn about the true nature of Viruses,
Chemicals in our environment
are responsible for disabling people's health
along w/ the chemically sprayed foods they consume
and the lack of knowing how to eat
and what to eat.
what changed in China
was people getting off the streets, out of the vehicles,
air pollution dropped
when people stayed home
it was not social distancing or Masks
it is the chemical toxins we are daily employing globally
via vehicles, machinery, boats, planes, etc
+ how we farm
how we tend to our yards
via the main culprit
ROUND-UP
we got a lot of cleansing of our lifestyles
to do
Asap
and we can !!!!
pl listen to the link, to Zach Bush
:waccosun::heart:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Dear Rossmen, I do appreciate your participation on this forum, but would you puh-leese spell HERD immunity correctly? Many thanks. :-)
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
Japan is an interesting country. ...
Masks alone will have some slowing effect on the rapidity of daily case rise, I guess, in regions where significant heard immunity hasn't developed yet, like west county.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Love it!!! Always need a good laugh in these crazy times!! Thank you.!!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
UC Davis Study. Masks protect the wearer as well as the other guy. If this had been widely know at the beginning of this pandemic mask wearing would not even be the slightest issue. Many if not most people are basically selfish. If they knew mask wearing was protecting them to this degree you couldn't pry them off their faces with a crowbar.
https://www.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/...sk-65-percent/
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
To get useful self protection, your mask should have 2 layers of tightly woven fabric. One layer will greatly reduce your chances of spreading droplets, but provides significantly less personal protection.
The Venn diagram of people who are afraid of masks and those who fear vaccines has major overlap.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Goat Rock Ukulele:
UC Davis Study. Masks protect the wearer as well as the other guy. If this had been widely know at the beginning of this pandemic mask wearing would not even be the slightest issue. Many if not most people are basically selfish. If they knew mask wearing was protecting them to this degree you couldn't pry them off their faces with a crowbar.
https://www.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/...sk-65-percent/
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
haven't heard
of anyone
afraid
of masks~
have two progressive doctors
one who has backed away from allopathic medicine
after 19 yrs of study, chemotherapy research developer, teacher of medical students, & 3 medical degrees
who cites pollutants in our soil, farms, yards, air & water
as the reason for so many illnesses: kidney disease, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc
for being susceptible to hard core viral illness, such as Covid 19
his solution is to work with farmers
to find funding for them
to work from a chemical free paradigm
so that our food is actually healthy and strengthens us
rather than the opposite
he and another heart specialist who was in on heart transplants from the beginning
say masks do not stop viruses
one says his tests of masks reveal
that the droplets carrying coronavirus
goes through the mask and sits on the outside surface of the mask
making masks a vehicle for spreading Covid 19
i would not jump onto the phenomenon of Fear
and characterize
those questioning masks
as Fearful
they may have update true information
that is unpopular and hard to accept
due to the entrenchment of the tradition of the use of masks
the heart surgeon said
wearing surgical masks during surgeries
is only to keep bacteria from doctors' faces
from dropping into the wounds of patients on the operating table.
he said it does not mask or prevent virus from spreading,
rather that the mask Would allow
virus to move from the wearer
into the environment
the heart surgeon is Dr. Steven Gundry
the holder of three medical degrees is Zach Bush MD
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by geomancer:
To get useful self protection, your mask should have 2 layers of tightly woven fabric. One layer will greatly reduce your chances of spreading droplets, but provides significantly less personal protection.
The Venn diagram of people who are afraid of masks and those who fear vaccines has major overlap.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
....
say masks do not stop viruses
one says his tests of masks reveal that the droplets carrying coronavirus goes through the mask and sits on the outside surface of the mask making masks a vehicle for spreading Covid 19....
the heart surgeon said wearing surgical masks during surgeries is only to keep bacteria from doctors' faces from dropping into the wounds of patients on the operating table.
he said it does not mask or prevent virus from spreading, rather that the mask Would allow virus to move from the wearer into the environment
and, seat belts don't keep you safe either, if you don't crash all that hard. I'm sure there are different opinions among doctors, too - your guy seems to be oversimplifying a bit. There are also skin mites who shouldn't be jumping into the patient's innards either.
Of course part of this is theater - similar in some ways to the gyrations they put us through at airports. But theater is important to us. The correlation between not wearing masks and not maintaining distance, or following the other practices that help limit spread, is pretty high. Tell them they can go to the beach, and they mob the concession stands. A mask serves as a constant reminder to take other precautions too. And like seatbelts, occasionally at least they'll make a difference.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I've entered the fray of listening to both sides, various explanations given for positioning pro or con about masking, or what kinds, whether they are 'simply' ineffectual, or actually can make a wearer sick or sicker, breathing their own cooties... or sending them into the eyes.
Oy.
But I do believe that harsh judgements of those doing the opposite thing (I include myself, until a week ago), fear of Otherness... and I believe that identifying with fear, engaging in DRAMA --IS harmful to our health, immune (and other systems), and sanity.
So perhaps for personal well being, we must choose the best practices we can, at any given time in this unfolding, and proceed with surrender. With respect for each other. As much kindness as we can muster. And keep sharing the findings.
I teach breathwork, mindfulness, gratitude: never have these been more necessary and beneficial for me.
I was also curious what Gundry's take was on masks... would like to hear more from other less-allopathically inclined voices. And love the conversatons on 'meta' levels, beyond the Dramas....
Blessings
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Here is some useful information on masks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StrB...8KPTaO0MNOD0wY
And here is a mask exemption form:
https://thedoctorwithin.com/facemask-exemption-form/
And here are more details about the laws regarding masks in California:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQR...d0&app=desktop
Thank you Yamah for your share :heart:
Dear Barry, PLEASE UNMASK the SUN already! It is full-on Summer & the Sun needs to Breathe!
With Love & deep Care for our community ~ :waccosun:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Here is a youtube page
on Dr. Steven Gundry's responses to Covid 19
i don't see the interview i recently watched,
will keep looking for it
and will send when found
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ry+on+Covid+19
:waccosun::heart:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by anaturalwoman:
...
I was also curious what Gundry's take was on masks... would like to hear more from other less-allopathically inclined voices. And love the conversations on 'meta' levels, beyond the Dramas....
Blessings
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Here is the Dr. Gundry video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbRfg6WU_eA
also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSKY4Oz9IXQ
in which he states
viruses will penetrate masks
he also speaks about Corona
being a cousin of the cold
and the point of whether it mutates or not
hope this is helpful
will say
Gundry's point about
reproduction,
making copies of ourselves
as the reason / purpose of one's life
does not resonate w/ me~
we are here to evolve,
develop ourselves,
reach our potentials
as humans
and as Divine beings,
which i sense is true for all sentient beings,
we do not differ,
we are on different roads of the journey,
each unique,
each common / universal,
simultaneously~
so i see Gundry as limited,
yet
aren't we all~
take from what is Intelligent,
what makes sense
and compost the rest,
that goes for myself as well, for sure~
at this point i find it hard to have a factual opinion
about what is True about Covid 19 & what to do ~
in the meantime
i wear a mask and social distance
and shelter in place most of the time
still i am very skeptical
of the medical loop:
pharmaceuticals owning chemical companies
spraying food
which destroys amino acid formation
which we need because our bodies do not produce amino acids,
the training of medical professionals
is basically on how to administer pharmaceuticals
once their patients are ill,
not on nutritious foods and lifestyles~
they learn about pathology,
not about Health~
meaning weak immune systems
due to food they are eating / unhealthy lifestyles.
these people then seek a system
that has created to a large degree
the illness/es
the pharmaceutical and medical professions
make a lot of money
and it does appear to be a loop
benefitting from illness
they are clearly creating
through chemical sprays, chemical therapies
whether they are conscious of this
or not
it is a deep and vast, rooted system
and will take
more Consciousness
to uproot and replace
which is underway
yet which needs a whole lot more work to establish
and overturn
what is destructive
(i had a healthy lifestyle
yet contracted a severe illness
it took a very specific way of eating
to enable my body
to heal itself
and it did!
miraculously,
thankfully
so it is not just about a healthy lifestyle and organic food
it is more calibrated than that
in order for the body to actually be able to execute its ability to clean and heal)
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Whenever I encounter an unmasked COVIDIOT I hold my breath for a good 10' on either side. These fools have a much higher chance of carrying the virus than average.
JAMA has this to say:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2768532
In this issue of JAMA, Wang et al present evidence that universal masking of health care workers (HCWs) and patients can help reduce transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infections.1 In the largest health care system in Massachusetts with more than 75 000 employees, in tandem with routine symptom screening and diagnostic testing of symptomatic HCWs for SARS-CoV-2 infection, leadership mandated a policy of universal masking for all HCWs as well as for all patients. The authors present data that prior to implementation of universal masking in late March 2020, new infections among HCWs with direct or indirect patient contact were increasing exponentially, from 0% to 21.3% (a mean increase of 1.16% per day). However, after the universal masking policy was in place, the proportion of symptomatic HCWs with positive test results steadily declined, from 14.7% to 11.5% (a mean decrease of 0.49% per day). Although not a randomized clinical trial, this study provides critically important data to emphasize that masking helps prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Dandelion:
...Dear Barry, PLEASE UNMASK the SUN already! It is full-on Summer & the Sun needs to Breathe!
With Love & deep Care for our community ~ :waccosun:
Thanks for the sentiment, Dandelion, but the mask stays on to protect the community :wink:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I am sure that nothing that I say here will be new or unique, but, ...
- Masks were designed to protect patients in operating rooms and work for short periods.
- Masks are useless outdoors.
- I have no issue with wearing them in stores where the store owners are subject to shutdown if they do not comply, but no where else.
- I have yet to see any decent evidence that they do anything on a large scale public setting such as the nation at large.
- There are already 100% cures to Covid that have nothing to do w/vaccines, and thus eliminate the need for vaccines, sorry Gates!!, Go find Dr. Buttar and Dr. Bartlett
- The only use for masks is to identify the folks that watch way to much MSM vs looking at independent facts by people doing the actual work, who are not policy makers or Fear-Porn promoters with a much smaller if any ax to grind and to create an unnecessary level of social division within our society and make it a lot more difficult to address each other in a friendly and community building type of manner.
Y'all have fun now!!!
Ken.
ps: Please try to see a little humor in this post, take Vit C, eat oranges, take Vit D and get lots of direct sunshine/exercise in this wonderful weather that we have here!!!
Spirulina is really good as well as a wonderful overall health and mood support in these nutty times!!!
Please take a breath and smile before flaming me for my insightful and light-hearted post, :)))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDSD...ature=youtu.be
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Goat Rock Ukulele:
UC Davis Study. Masks protect the wearer as well as the other guy. If this had been widely know at the beginning of this pandemic mask wearing would not even be the slightest issue. Many if not most people are basically selfish. If they knew mask wearing was protecting them to this degree you couldn't pry them off their faces with a crowbar.
https://www.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/...sk-65-percent/
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Amen!! (It's a heading.)
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
Thanks for the sentiment, Dandelion, but the mask stays on to protect the community :wink:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by kburgess:
I am sure that nothing that I say here will be new or unique, but, ...
- Masks were designed to protect patients in operating rooms and work for short periods.
- Masks are useless outdoors......
- I have yet to see any decent evidence that they do anything on a large scale public setting such as the nation at large.
- There are already 100% cures to Covid that have nothing to do w/vaccines, and thus eliminate the need for vaccines, sorry Gates!!, Go find Dr. Buttar and Dr. Bartlett
- The only use for masks is to identify the folks that watch way to much MSM vs looking at independent facts by people doing the actual work, who are not policy makers or Fear-Porn promoters with a much smaller if any ax to grind.
I am now going to take my red MAGA hat and AR15 out to the field and shoot some stray cats, dogs and baby birds!!!
I hope you're not shooting them within city limits.
in general though, I'll take issue with every one of your statements as too narrow and dogmatic. Not really all wrong, but ending up giving the wrong impression.
- 'designed for' isn't as singular as you imply. When developing a design, there are several uses considered when establishing the criteria it must meet. Ideally, there are many uses (read markets) for a given design. Those same masks are used to protect against other airborne hazards.
- 'useless' is again too blanket. You can make a case that the risks are quite low outdoors, but even that is not universally accepted.
- 100% cures, really! that are being ignored out of cussedness and blind faith in Gates?
- and, that's not the only use for masks. And even if it was the only intended use, they don't function very well for it. The correlation between mask use and media consumption is speculative at best. I bet plenty of them find random sources they trust as much as you trust yours, for about as good reasons.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
My main point here is that we are letting a lot of policy makers put in a level of fear and control within our lives that is completely against every aspect of normal, natural Common-Sense. Our bodies have handled disease for a LONG time before Dr Fauci and Birks stepped on to the scene, let alone our beloved Newsome. Eat good food and get the filth out of our bodies and heads, and we will live, and yes if you look at the cure rate that those doctors presented, it is very compelling!!!
Check the facts for yourself!!!
Yes we can pick apart the various points of the arguments, but it mainly comes down to finding productive solutions to a potentially real problem but non lethal, vs being afraid of the impacts of an inflated problem that does not really exist. Yes there is a virus, but it is not that dangerous and if we did not have the MSM pumping out their BS 24/7, it would all have blown over by now and we would not be in the mess that we are and will be in for the next several years getting out of it, and we may be in quite a mess from it all for quite a while!!!
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by kburgess:
My main point here is that we are letting a lot of policy makers put in a level of fear and control within our lives ...
it's not that I disagree so much with some of your observations, it's that I completely disagree with where they lead you. Picking at the details was one way to highlight that. But for the big picture: they are using fear as a tool because using reason hasn't shown the least bit of effectiveness. To the greater public, being allowed to go out for a drink is being allowed to jam together and shout over the music into the ears of a dozen nearby people. So the restrictions are broad and they're trying to eliminate any opportunity for the thoughtless to be careless. There's no doubt that this disease is serious enough to kill people in quantities that exceed wars and acts of terrorism, both of which also cause reshaping of daily life.
Ok, "no doubt" is too strong, clearly you doubt. And if everyone was healthy and lived good clean lives, they'd be safe. Want to point out that most people who die are unhealthy and old, both of those conditions being their own fault? Few people who downplay the hazard are willing to go there, but it's hard to not notice those elephants in the room (no pun intended).
An argument can be made that we tolerate lots of death for daily convenience, just basing off our transportation systems alone. We manage to accept a lot of death that is a consequence of our fondness of bad habits, too. So sure, try to weave Covid into that context. But just blankly saying "it's really not that big a deal" isn't helpful or accurate.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I cannot believe that there remains any question of the effectiveness of wearing a mask. It reminds me of my friends, family, and colleagues who say that they will not get sick because God is protecting them. Wearing a mask, keeping at least a 6' distance, washing hands, not touching face is what science is telling us to keep us safe. It's common sense at the very least, folks.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
right - stays on till there's a vaccine to protect the sun.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
Thanks for the sentiment, Dandelion, but the mask stays on to protect the community :wink:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
An awfully large number of people have died from this new disease, kburgess, and many others survive but remain with more or less crippling injuries. Are you quite sure that most of these people had failed to "eat good food and get the filth out of [their] bodies and heads"? On what evidence do you base your conclusions?
Yes, "our bodies have handled disease for a LONG time," but many people have died along the way! When a virulent infectious disease is new on the scene, and our collective bodies have had no chance to build up new resistance to it, many people die! Then those people who have a better natural immune response to it survive and produce more immune babies. Natural selection!
The question is, are you one of those naturally disease-resistant people? You never really know until you are one of those unfortunate people who get sick and test positive, or don't get sick yet test positive.
Good luck, my friend!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by kburgess:
My main point here is that we are letting a lot of policy makers put in a level of fear and control within our lives that is completely against every aspect of normal, natural Common-Sense. Our bodies have handled disease for a LONG time before Dr Fauci and Birks stepped on to the scene, let alone our beloved Newsome. Eat good food and get the filth out of our bodies and heads, and we will live, and yes if you look at the cure rate that those doctors presented, it is very compelling!!!
Check the facts for yourself!!!
Yes we can pick apart the various points of the arguments, but it mainly comes down to finding productive solutions to a potentially real problem but non lethal, vs being afraid of the impacts of an inflated problem that does not really exist. Yes there is a virus, but it is not that dangerous and if we did not have the MSM pumping out their BS 24/7, it would all have blown over by now and we would not be in the mess that we are and will be in for the next several years getting out of it, and we may be in quite a mess from it all for quite a while!!!
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
richard,
the "awfully large number" is still an awfully small percentage of people who have it or have had it, many of whom didn't even know they did, that's how mild it can be.
doesn't it just make sense that older, sicker people (by and large) die when there's an added stressor?
i, like many round here, have made a life habit of optimizing my health, and avoiding doctors
except for emergencies, diagnostic tests or unique therapeutics. i get their input, then decide with other input.
allopathic medicine is relatively new, profit-driven and crude compared to the various other systems of healing which work with nature and subtle energies: Ayureveda, TCM, herbalists, etc.
i've also made friends with death, knowing that this is one realm of many and that my being has cycled in and will cycle out. that frees me to have less-to-no fear of dying.
a virus - no matter how pumped by the master fear porn mongers controlling the daily reports - simply does not hold the terror for me that it does for most people. ultimately we will all go, and i'm good with that.
being here in the meantime, it does behoove us to be healthy.
looking around at the typical american, though, for decades we've been amongst the unhealthiest on the planet, despite our wealth and 'high living standard'.
how many people got the flu (or whatever was going around) every year?
how many people got the flu shot and
how many got sick even with the fu shot?
our medical establishment is notorious costly and it is counter to its self-interest to keep people healthy. it is really effective at increasing its profits; look at any statistics you like. big pharma is (if not THE, then among) the top lobbyist in DC. but making us healthy, not so much.
what wonder is there that we have the current situation?
question is, on a personal level, what's your own style, now and for the last 40 years?
who's your doctor or person or system you turn to to return to optimum health?
who bears the wisdom and the responsibility?
then, collectively, what laws do you endorse which mandate 'public health"?
what mandates do you allow for what is required to be done to your body? another person's body?
have you thought about freedom and what that means, starting with your body? and for everyone?
of course it will be both the carrot (entrance to stores, events, etc.) and the stick (required vaccine papers for work, school, travel, etc.) as well as social shaming by those who will defend to their last breath their need to have everyone vaccinated for the overall good, despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
this would be a good time - never too soon for mass awakening.
the very best health and happiness to all, jude
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
richard,
the "awfully large number" is still an awfully small percentage of people who have it or have had it, many of whom didn't even know they did, that's how mild it can be.
if you have less than a 1% chance of dying any given day, you would likely not last the year. Math is incredibly misleading when people use it along with intuitive thinking.
"An awfully large number" stands on its own. Really, I think the odds aren't much of an issue. You can compare the number of deaths from Covid to any other cause of death in the country to decide if it's serious.
The response to the number of deaths is way out of proportion to the response to the number of deaths from, say, automobiles, that's true. But again, math is not your friend. It's easy to save lives by incremental improvements on cars. We haven't figured out yet how to keep Covid deaths to a dull roar
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
With good medical care, you have a fair chance of surviving the virus. OTOH, when hospitals are swamped, god help you.
Folks in Georgia are fucked:
NPR: Georgia Hospital Worker Sounds Alarm: 'I Have Never Ever Seen Anything Like This'
"They were lined up along the walls in the ER," a health care worker inside a Navicent Health-owned hospital in middle Georgia told GPB News. "We never have had an influx like that. Since the Fourth of July, it has just exploded."
Staff members did what they always do. They tended to patients as best they could. For the sickest patients, staff searched for available beds in nearby hospitals. In previous weeks, the health care worker said, COVID-19 patients typically got transported to medical centers about 70 miles north to Atlanta or 160 miles east to Savannah.
This week, there was no room. Desperate, the health care worker said, administrators began checking available hospitals in Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina and Florida.
Fun thing to do: Google *post covid syndrome* and see what you get. Take this article from the NYT for example:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/health/coronavirus-recovery-survivors.html
"Hundreds of thousands of seriously ill coronavirus patients who survive and leave the hospital are facing a new and difficult challenge: recovery. Many are struggling to overcome a range of troubling residual symptoms, and some problems may persist for months, years or even the rest of their lives. Patients who are returning home after being hospitalized for severe respiratory failure from the virus are confronting physical, neurological, cognitive and emotional issues."
For all the whining and fear mongering about how *dangerous* vaccines are on this list, in no possible scenario do vaccines kill 1% of the recipients, nor hospitalize another 20% - with various forms of enduring morbidity.
Yet some of you loudly proclaim your readiness to take your chances with the COVID-19 virus rather than get vaccinated if (and that's a pretty big if) and when a vaccine becomes available. The cognitive dissonance is mind boggling.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Very well stated
Thank you Jude :heart:
Here is some very helpful info on supporting the immune system:
(Vitamin D from the Sun being at the top of the list, so let's not cover it up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNXzBVyKNTk
Blessings to our community
&
To Truth Freedom & Health ~
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
richard,
the "awfully large number" is still an awfully small percentage of people who have it or have had it,...
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
richard,
uh, with a good immune system, you not only stand a "fair chance of surviving the virus"
but you'll barely notice that you've had it, like the majority of those with positive tests.
meanwhile:
have you watched Vaxxed 1 and 2?
have you given del bigtree a few hours of listen?
how about some of the many, many talks Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has on video?
or read anything which actually examines issues with vaccines, since you don't favor videos?
Do you simply prefer to hold your views that "vaccines are safe and effective" - THE marketing line given by BIG PHARMA, CDC, WHO, ETC. and parroted by each and every talking head on pretty much EACH AND EVERY TV STATION (I've misplaced that edited montage but it's there, oh yes it is).
here's a fun thing for you to do, richard: google 'vaccine harms' or vaccine deaths' or 'vaccine problems'.
You WON'T SEE much there - NOT because it doesn't exist but because IT HAS BEEN CENSORED. DELETED. REMOVED.
Everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship. WHY?
Why are Americans NOT ALLOWED to know and dialogue about any subject? For 'our own good'?
Could there possibly be an agenda for the censorship?
Everyone posting a video on YouTube saying anything critical about 5G KNOWS they will get deleted within the hour. WTF??? Could there be BIG MONEY INVOLVED? POSSIBLY???
...but back to vaccines...
it is somewhat surprising that you are still not fully clear that the 'development' of the vaccine is indeed going at WARP SPEED (Operation Warp Speed Selects Billionaire Scientist’s COVID-19 Vaccine for Monkey Tests June 02, 2020 | Science Magazine)
and that it will likely be given by military medics - WHICH HAVE BEGUN TO BE DEPLOYED TO TEXAS AND CALIFORNIA YESTERDAY, FRIDAY, JULY 17, 2020
hopefully, there'll also soon be a vaccine for 'mind-boggling cognitive dissonance' of which you can then avail yourself; not that i don't experience that as well, but i treat i just treat it naturally, given the *novel covid reality*.
relax, get some sun - and stay healthy, jude
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by geomancer:
With good medical care, you have a fair chance of surviving the virus. OTOH, when hospitals are swamped, god help you. ...
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Of course the odds are the issue. Because in this situation math is all we have. Everything else is bs. And fortunately the mathematical reporting is more awesome than evah! Depending on the country of course.
What's interesting is the mathematical analysis is stupid. Like yours. What's your point? Are you scared of dieing too? Deaths from covid are a gentle hum in soco. The closest I've gotten is a family branch of 13, they all got over it. The only death a police detective, but she lived in Napa.
What's more important is the fatality rate where herd immunity begins to develop. Depending on timing and policy it seems to be between .03% to .16%. Soco is at .0029%. More will die, and it could be me. I totally drive to much.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
if you have less than a 1% chance of dying any given day, you would likely not last the year. Math is incredibly misleading when people use it along with intuitive thinking.
"An awfully large number" stands on its own. Really, I think the odds aren't much of an issue. You can compare the number of deaths from Covid to any other cause of death in the country to decide if it's serious.
The response to the number of deaths is way out of proportion to the response to the number of deaths from, say, automobiles, that's true. But again, math is not your friend. It's easy to save lives by incremental improvements on cars. We haven't figured out yet how to keep Covid deaths to a dull roar
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
Of course the odds are the issue....
Disraeli had something to say about math. No, odds are not 'of course' the issue. Actually, we do have a lot more than math. It's one of several tools. And the 'stupid' is kind of out of place coming from you when your math analysis glides straight into anecdote, though to be fair, it's an anecdote with numbers.
What we have is a social situation where the medical system is being overwhelmed. It's not overwhelmed with automobile deaths. Remember back to the early days when they explained the idea of 'bend the curve'. If you recall the math there, the eventual number of cases was higher, but you spread the distribution over more time. It lowered the rate of serious cases, keeping it within range of the capabilities of the medical system to treat it.
It's not math because we're still arguing about how to adapt society to keep the case count low. We do have an ongoing argument like that regarding transportation. Seat belts, traffic regulations, vehicle design, all have been developed to improve safety. Math's used to measure the efficacy of different solutions.
Covid policy isn't to that point. People who don't wear seat belts still obey (sort of) traffic laws. The analogy with covid would be more as if we had a situation where we removed traffic laws. That actually has worked great in some small European towns, people behave more cautiously. So sure, we could adapt to the case where not all freeway traffic was going the same direction. The deaths would go down soon, as people adjusted.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
It's still an awfully large number, Judith! And many who survive are crippled with more or less problematic after-effects.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
richard,
the "awfully large number" is still an awfully small percentage of people who have it or have had it, many of whom didn't even know they did, that's how mild it can be.
doesn't it just make sense that older, sicker people (by and large) die when there's an added stressor?
i, like many round here, have made a life habit of optimizing my health, and avoiding doctors
except for emergencies, diagnostic tests or unique therapeutics. i get their input, then decide with other input.
allopathic medicine is relatively new, profit-driven and crude compared to the various other systems of healing which work with nature and subtle energies: Ayureveda, TCM, herbalists, etc.
i've also made friends with death, knowing that this is one realm of many and that my being has cycled in and will cycle out. that frees me to have less-to-no fear of dying.
a virus - no matter how pumped by the master fear porn mongers controlling the daily reports - simply does not hold the terror for me that it does for most people. ultimately we will all go, and i'm good with that.
being here in the meantime, it does behoove us to be healthy.
looking around at the typical american, though, for decades we've been amongst the unhealthiest on the planet, despite our wealth and 'high living standard'.
how many people got the flu (or whatever was going around) every year?
how many people got the flu shot and
how many got sick even with the fu shot?
our medical establishment is notorious costly and it is counter to its self-interest to keep people healthy. it is really effective at increasing its profits; look at any statistics you like. big pharma is (if not THE, then among) the top lobbyist in DC. but making us healthy, not so much.
what wonder is there that we have the current situation?
question is, on a personal level, what's your own style, now and for the last 40 years?
who's your doctor or person or system you turn to to return to optimum health?
who bears the wisdom and the responsibility?
then, collectively, what laws do you endorse which mandate 'public health"?
what mandates do you allow for what is required to be done to your body? another person's body?
have you thought about freedom and what that means, starting with your body? and for everyone?
of course it will be both the carrot (entrance to stores, events, etc.) and the stick (required vaccine papers for work, school, travel, etc.) as well as social shaming by those who will defend to their last breath their need to have everyone vaccinated for the overall good, despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
this would be a good time - never too soon for mass awakening.
the very best health and happiness to all, jude
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
"A fair chance of surviving the virus"? I'm not inclined to gamble with my health, Judith. It's really all I have!
How can you downplay the severity of this epidemic? We've never seen anything like this in your and my many decades of life! The whole world is on it's knees! Hospitals are overwhelmed! Economies are collapsing! And there's no relief in sight!
As for vaccines, I've been inoculated with many ever since childhood. I never got the diseases--thank god!-- and I've never developed any side effects from the vaccines. I only know of one person who has a horror story connected with vaccination. Are you one of those people who believe you have been harmed by vaccination?
I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.
How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?
And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?
I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.
I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend. But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
richard,
uh, with a good immune system, you not only stand a "fair chance of surviving the virus"
but you'll barely notice that you've had it, like the majority of those with positive tests.
meanwhile:
have you watched Vaxxed 1 and 2?
have you given del bigtree a few hours of listen?
how about some of the many, many talks Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has on video?
or read anything which actually examines issues with vaccines, since you don't favor videos?
Do you simply prefer to hold your views that "vaccines are safe and effective" - THE marketing line given by BIG PHARMA, CDC, WHO, ETC. and parroted by each and every talking head on pretty much EACH AND EVERY TV STATION (I've misplaced that edited montage but it's there, oh yes it is).
here's a fun thing for you to do, richard: google 'vaccine harms' or vaccine deaths' or 'vaccine problems'.
You WON'T SEE much there - NOT because it doesn't exist but because IT HAS BEEN CENSORED. DELETED. REMOVED.
Everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship. WHY?
Why are Americans NOT ALLOWED to know and dialogue about any subject? For 'our own good'?
Could there possibly be an agenda for the censorship?
Everyone posting a video on YouTube saying anything critical about 5G KNOWS they will get deleted within the hour. WTF??? Could there be BIG MONEY INVOLVED? POSSIBLY???
...but back to vaccines...
it is somewhat surprising that you are still not fully clear that the 'development' of the vaccine is indeed going at WARP SPEED (Operation Warp Speed Selects Billionaire Scientist’s COVID-19 Vaccine for Monkey Tests June 02, 2020 | Science Magazine)
and that it will likely be given by military medics - WHICH HAVE BEGUN TO BE DEPLOYED TO TEXAS AND CALIFORNIA YESTERDAY, FRIDAY, JULY 17, 2020
hopefully, there'll also soon be a vaccine for 'mind-boggling cognitive dissonance' of which you can then avail yourself; not that i don't experience that as well, but i treat i just treat it naturally, given the *novel covid reality*.
relax, get some sun - and stay healthy, jude
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
It does seem futile to argue with people not interested in doing the work of researching vaccines deaths and injuries.
It is OK to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus AND question the drug companies business and long and corrupt track record. Don't forget vaccines are a 52 billion dollar a year business - the only for profit business that has NO liability and full indemnity since the vaccine ACT of 1986.
As the Shakespeare would stay, "Something is rotten in Denmark."
Here's my friends vaccine database - he is a long time silicon valley IT specialist and is brilliant. He created this for free and maintains it daily. He is constantly restoring data that goes missing and is in close relationship with the government team who supplies the data on their end - he calls them regularly to get that information restored. He built algorithms that made sense out of the mass of useless data and runs a neutral website (neither for or against vaccines with such clear and easy to find information). It's a work of art: https://medalerts.org/
Explore and learn and then make up your mind.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
"A fair chance of surviving the virus"? I'm not inclined to gamble with my health, Judith. It's really all I have!
How can you downplay the severity of this epidemic? We've never seen anything like this in your and my many decades of life! The whole world is on it's knees! Hospitals are overwhelmed! Economies are collapsing! And there's no relief in sight!
As for vaccines, I've been inoculated with many ever since childhood. I never got the diseases--thank god!-- and I've never developed any side effects from the vaccines. I only know of one person who has a horror story connected with vaccination. Are you one of those people who believe you have been harmed by vaccination?
I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.
How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?
And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?
I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.
I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend. But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
It does seem futile to argue with people not interested in doing the work of researching vaccines deaths and injuries.
It is OK to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus AND question the drug companies business and long and corrupt track record.
...
As the Shakespeare would stay, "Something is rotten in Denmark."
Explore and learn and then make up your mind.
this is true, it's futile. And a lot of it is because people aren't arguing about facts, but about how to weigh them and what the simple, behavioral conclusion is.
Of course amateurs can't argue with experts on an even basis about the details. It's an easy way for an expert to cut short a discussion, too - trot out some arcane knowledge that leaves the opponent disarmed. I might have used that technique once or twice. But one thing to note: even experts often end up agreeing to disagree.
When the argument leads toward people making a decision about their behavior, though, many of the issues raised are not overly helpful. Can we all agree that for-profit medicine is a really bad idea? and that no-one can trust big pharma, or government, for that matter, to have nothing but their best interests at heart. Thanks.
Now, the real question. Do we disdain vaccines because of the arguments against them? Will digging deep into "the research" lead us to the conclusion we should just eat more strawberries instead?
Personally, I don't accept the apparent conclusion that several people on the anti-vax side of discussions here seem to have reached. I don't think it's likely that vaccines are a fake-news hoax that are useless at best and dangerous at worst.
However, people who are doing research, exposing the problems, are doing a valuable service too; it's a major reason why safeguards do exists. So props to them on that, but if that leads them to refusing all vaccines, I suspect it's going to hurt not only them but it'll negatively impact the potential beneficiaries of vaccines too.
Now, that being said, I'm not going to necessarily jump at the first vaccines either, and if someday a medical mistake or a poorly-vetted vaccine kills me, I won't be shocked -- I'd be pissed that they weren't better regulated.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
richard,
uh, with a good immune system, you not only stand a "fair chance of surviving the virus"
but you'll barely notice that you've had it, like the majority of those with positive tests.
kind of a "one true Scotsman" there. If you don't survive, Richard, it'll be on you if you don't!
Jude, this is where the big numbers stand on their own. There are thousands to hundreds of thousands of people who have died or are going to suffer life-long negative impact on their health. They don't really give a damn if it's a small percentage, or if they should have just had a better immune system, the morons. Why didn't they figure that out?
Go ahead and argue that it's too costly on society to save these people, because they're a small percentage of the population. It's an honest point of view. A few Trumpy politicians were bold enough to say it, but none stuck to it under pressure.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
now that you mention it, peter, an ungodly percentage of our sky-high medical costs are spent on
the very-end-of-life care.
this, of course, in a culture which fears death and desperately strives to extend life every last moment, regardless of tubes, beeping machines, drastic procedures, by any means available.
yet, as Budha recognized, old age, sickness and death are our inevitable demise - or 2 outta 3, but death is always there.
there is a lot to be said for self responsibility for our health; if someone smokes and drinks all their life, do 'we' pay for lung and liver replacement - IF that's even possible... right?
epigenetics is the study of how genes are affected by how we live. that's a real thing.
same genes, different health outcome. and yes, certainly, there is the context - polluted environments causing cancers, COPD, etc., and also illness that just 'comes' ...so not clear cut but ABSOLUTELY much of our health is in our daily choices throughout our lives, which account for that good immune system, in the larger context of our (relatively) vital body, at whatever age.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
...if someday a medical mistake or a poorly-vetted vaccine kills me, I won't be shocked -- I'd be pissed that they weren't better regulated.
uh, peter, there are better options than being 'pissed off after you're dead' or seriously harmed by a vaccine.
you could watch, listen to or read the material on the subject of vaccines.
NB: WE ARE NOW LIVING IN INCREASINGLY CENSORED TIMES, WHERE INFORMATION COUNTER TO THE PREVAILING NARRATIVE (ESPECIALLY VACCINES) IS CONSTANTLY DELETED. WHY IS THAT? EXPLORE. EXAMINE. LEARN BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY.
after becoming more knowledgeable, you'd make more informed decisions about when and if you wanted to have a vaccination - or any medical procedure.
your body, your choice.
the more you know, the better your choices.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
richard: the "fair chance of surviving" was in response to richard ely's post.
regardless, your mind is made up, clearly there's no need to spend time to learn, etc.
you'd have to think.
responding is obviously a waste on all fronts.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
"A fair chance of surviving the virus"? I'm not inclined to gamble with my health, Judith. It's really all I have!
How can you downplay the severity of this epidemic? We've never seen anything like this in your and my many decades of life! The whole world is on it's knees! Hospitals are overwhelmed! Economies are collapsing! And there's no relief in sight!
As for vaccines, I've been inoculated with many ever since childhood. I never got the diseases--thank god!-- and I've never developed any side effects from the vaccines. I only know of one person who has a horror story connected with vaccination. Are you one of those people who believe you have been harmed by vaccination?
I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.
How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?
And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?
I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.
I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend. But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Zach Bush MD, who i so gratefully and fortunately connected with through your post Jude, weeks ago, says we are about 2% genetic, the rest is the micro-biome, made of viruses (yes, viruses, as viruses he says, are not living organisms. they areInformation which tag onto RNA, that support us, give us downloads for our evolution, survival, etc.) so we are made 98% of micro-biome: viruses, parasites, bacteria, fungi~ we have only 2/3 the genetics of a flea, Zach says. He said, when he misplaces his car keys or is late for an airplane flight, he thinks to himself, 'well i only have 2/3 the genetics as a flea.' His emphasis is on the health of the micro-biome, in the gut / intestines for building immunity. He does not reccommend probiotics because he says we have 30-40,000 positive bacteria or probiotics in our micro-biome, so to feed oneself 2-4 types of probiotic continually subverts the existence and building of diversity of probiotics in the gut. He speaks beyond where most nutritionists and doctors are coming from.
epigenetics is the study of how genes are affected by how we live. that's a real thing.
same genes, different health outcome. and yes, certainly, there is the context - polluted environments causing cancers, COPD, etc., and also illness that just 'comes' ...so not clear cut but ABSOLUTELY much of our health is in our daily choices throughout our lives, which account for that good immune system, in the larger context of our (relatively) vital body, at whatever age.[/QUOTE]
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.
I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.
Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!
Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?
Old Granddad
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
this is the BEST response to this thread YET!
And I agree 100% on the systemic rot that the two party system has created. It's a divide and conquer game to its core - and we all fell for it for lack of knowledge of history. Our government is based on corporate ownership of our representatives. All of them are beholden to monied interests. Nothing will ever go back to normal.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OldGranddad:
I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.
I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.
Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!
Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?
Old Granddad
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OldGranddad:
Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?
Old Granddad
the first part, probably not - how would you envision that going?
the second, I hope you're right, that we'll work together for the benefit of all. But if, as I suspect, when you say "by working together" you mean stop arguing and just wear their damn masks, it's not going to happen because of anyone's compelling argument here. What do you imagine would change the minds of people who are doing serious research to justify why the current restrictions are misguided? They're smart enough to counter any argument; there are enough ways to interpret data to support any doubts they have about the mainstream conclusions.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I think that there are many people who just love to argue and fight and assert their Rightness! I confess I can get a bit caught up in that myself, OldGranddad. Then I pull back and realize damn, I've only got a few years left on this incredible planet, and I've got a lot of firewood to cut for the cold season, and things that need fixing in my body and life!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OldGranddad:
I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.
I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.
Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!
Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?
Old Granddad
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Instead of responding to the points I made in my post, you put me down as someone whose "mind is made up" and unwilling to learn and think. This is an unfriendly and unhelpful way to relate, Judith.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
richard: the "fair chance of surviving" was in response to richard ely's post.
regardless, your mind is made up, clearly there's no need to spend time to learn, etc.
you'd have to think.
responding is obviously a waste on all fronts.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Please don't think the problem is the two party system. No matter how many parties we have, things will always be bad if we have the corruption. We can make the two party system work, or any number for that matter, if we change our course and head in a better direction.
Old Granddad
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Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
this is the BEST response to this thread YET!
And I agree 100% on the systemic rot that the two party system has created. It's a divide and conquer game to its core - and we all fell for it for lack of knowledge of history. Our government is based on corporate ownership of our representatives. All of them are beholden to monied interests. Nothing will ever go back to normal.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
In other countries, wearing a mask is not even a debate. It is common sense. Aside from that, cleaning our own space and home is necessary; we use garden hose https://totalguide.org/best-garden-hose/ at home.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Suppose we just ignored the mask problem and made face to face meetings for masks only or meetings with proper distancing for those with no masks and virtual meetings for everyone to discuss problems that may have a solution? I agree with you, it's an emotional issue and too difficult to resolve in our lifetimes. But, if the non-maskers are wrong, the issue will resolve itself.
Old Granddad
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
the first part, probably not - how would you envision that going?
the second, I hope you're right, that we'll work together for the benefit of all. But if, as I suspect, when you say "by working together" you mean stop arguing and just wear their damn masks, it's not going to happen because of anyone's compelling argument here. What do you imagine would change the minds of people who are doing serious research to justify why the current restrictions are misguided? They're smart enough to counter any argument; there are enough ways to interpret data to support any doubts they have about the mainstream conclusions.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
What does that phrase, "common sense" mean. I've never observed anything that sounds like that it my long lifetime!
Old Grandad
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Posted in reply to the post by Wunderkind:
In other countries, wearing a mask is not even a debate. It is common sense.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Not only that, Occi, her remarks are also true of herself. :-)
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
Instead of responding to the points I made in my post, you put me down as someone whose "mind is made up" and unwilling to learn and think. This is an unfriendly and unhelpful way to relate, Judith.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
ok, richard, here ya go, my responses interspersed in bold font:
"I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.
I challenge your receptivity and exposure to "anti-vaccers"... the term is tinged derogatorily, like 'conspiracy theorists'...
please share how many documentaries you've watched, articles and books you've read, interviews, etc. to come to your assessment of their having the "ring of paranoia".
If/since you haven't, you've no basis for your opinion - except what you've gotten via big pharma controlled media.
How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?
Endless deleted videos, accounts, entire websites with vast resources, gone. On vaccines and other topics.
Not knowing indicates you haven't been very aware and active online. Do others not know this? It's the new book-burning.
i'm not taking the time tonight to collate a list. LOTS THERE, or rather GONE.
a few on the topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtrdPulxDtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsd57EYyH_0
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...nd-censorship/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIBKsqQ-irc
And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?
I spend considerable time researching, and am not willing to do your research for you, to prove to you something which is abundantly clear to myself and the (few) others who are assiduous enough to explore and learn - in addition to just listening to the "radio while cooking and eating".
Neither NPR nor KPFA have been broadcasting the information which comes through the internet, via many sources I proffered weeks ago, on a list and then individually, for about 5 MONTHS now:
Del BigTree, London Real, Bet-David, Dr. Thomas Cowan, Ty and Charlene, Dr. Zack Bush, Dr. Christiane Northrup, Michel Chosudovsky, RFK Jr., etc., etc., etc.
I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.
I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend.
But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.
THIS, ABOVE, IS WHAT TRIGGERED MY (SOMEWHAT ANNOYED) FIRST REPLY: that you "refuse to take the many hours and explore the many sources of information" which I do
- yet you're "sure" and flummoxed by the existence of "other sources...that disagree" - implying that there's simply no way forward to know what's what... so that's that.
That is exactly where the intelligence part comes in, admittedly after putting in the time you've already said you refuse to...
DISCERNMENT. LOGIC. PATTERN RECOGNITION. AMASSING INFORMATION. HEARING THE RING OF TRUTH. SEEING THE VIDEOS OF DOCTORS AND PATIENTS, CHILDREN AND PARENTS, EX-CDC AND PHARMA AND FDC AND WHO, FROM DIFFERENT CONTINENTS AND LABS. Utterly fascinating, profoundly affecting, shocking and activating.
You've written that you found my initial reply "unfriendly and unhelpful". Perhaps this is more helpful.
And now that I've taken the time to reply to some of your questions will YOU now be taking the time to actually put your attention on some of the resources offered here? or will chopping wood, and other necessities continue to preclude your looking, listening, giving a true hearing to what this is about, hmmmm? Frankly, I'd bet on the latter, which is what summoned my considerably briefer reply.
But hope springs eternal. Ball's in your court. Love, Jude
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
Instead of responding to the points I made in my post, you put me down as someone whose "mind is made up" and unwilling to learn and think. This is an unfriendly and unhelpful way to relate, Judith.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
actually, barbara, sometimes there is a difference -
not ALL one observes about another is always projection.
(; >))
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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:
Not only that, Occi, her remarks are also true of herself. :-)
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Very Interesting Assessment (if true) on the (questionable) Value of Masks written by Harvard medical professional/s
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...lHcbrYjO-zPZdg
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
Very Interesting Assessment (if true) on the (questionable) Value of Masks written by Harvard medical professional/s
well, that's not quite what that's about. It's got a little editorialization on whether we should all wear masks or not - it's primarily about what's needed in a medical environment. They mention 'normal' outside use in passing, not referring to any actual studies. They're a little too casual as they dismiss their value.
But again, I think people are basing their ideas on different sets of assumptions. I'm perfectly willing to accept as a plausible assertion. They state the obvious - typically you need a 'significant exposure' to catch Covid19, then say "the chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal." Sure, true enough.
If we all maintained social distancing and stayed outdoors or in well-ventilated public space, there would probably be hardly any transmission. But that's not the world we're in. Note they don't define 'passing interaction'. There's also the issue that people who aren't wearing masks are forcing others in their surroundings to accept their judgement,that there really is no danger and it's all overblown. Also, we often force people to take precautions that aren't justified. You really think that just because I'm blowing 0.08 after a couple of beers that I'm still not a safer driver than you at your best? Well, the nanny state won't let us find out, will they? At this early stage of the pandemic, that's the context to look at the mask requirements in.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Hello dear believers and non believers,
We can no longer claim ignorance of the facts. We now know a lot about this virus that we didn’t know at the beginning of the pandemic. The main things are asymptomatic rates of infection, primarily airborne transmission, and the fact that people are most infectious prior to the onset of symptoms. It is time that we adjust our behavior to reflect this new knowledge.
Now, let's talk about who is getting sick with Covid. In our greatly affluent and Anglo community here in Sonoma County (West County for sure), the majority of the people getting sick are Latinos...documented, undocumented, first, second, third generation, Spanish speaking and non Spanish speaking, English speaking and non English speaking. This includes a large indigenous population mostly from Mexico and fewer from Guatemala. I know because I work with them as well as for an organization that tracks the statistics in Sonoma Co. These are our brothers and sisters who plant, grow and harvest our food, tend to the animals that we consume, tend to our elders, children, and our gardens. They work in our restaurants, bars, and hotels.
Keeping this in mind, I will continue to obey the law by wearing a mask, & keeping a social distance... for their sake and for mine.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
It's still an awfully large number, Judith! And many who survive are crippled with more or less problematic after-effects.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by viajera:
Now, let's talk about who is getting sick with Covid. In our greatly affluent and Anglo community here in Sonoma County (West County for sure), the majority of the people getting sick are Latinos...... These are our brothers and sisters who plant, grow and harvest our food, tend to the animals that we consume, tend to our elders, children, and our gardens. They work in our restaurants, bars, and hotels.
Keeping this in mind, I will continue to obey the law by wearing a mask, & keeping a social distance... for their sake and for mine.
that's true, and it's an unstated assumption behind a lot of the arguments that are saying masks aren't effective enough to bother with.
It is indeed true, even more effective than wearing a mask is having someone else take the risks for you. Too many of us have limited our exposure, so unless masks are hugely effective, we don't really need them all that much -- for ourselves. But for those who can't help but have frequent exposure, it's different. And there, it's true, masks aren't good enough for someone to protect themselves. It behooves the rest of us to do what we can to limit their exposure -- and saying we don't think we're putting them at much risk, isn't really good enough. We don't bear the same potential cost, it's being pushed to people who don't get much say.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Your off topic! Thanks:), however you have opened up a whole new Cassandra can of worms, thankyou. Personally I think we all work together all the time. Even when we actively kill each other. Our species, whether we like it or not, hold the fate of earth in our hands. Not life of course, but us and many others (species).
So the question is, putting it all together, is wearing masks good for the planet? If we kill off the old and sick, which could be you and me, is that better? Clearly most of us will survive, and this moment will be judged historically. Does our future historical judgement matter? A=B=C no.
So mask wearing doesn't matter? On a personal level yes. My partner wants me to wear a mask to keep family and her patients safe. But she's way more social than me, and suffers. And as an alternative practitioner she knows more about this than me.
What am I supposed to do? I enjoy talking to trees more than people. Masks are not something the native big ones give a shit about. So yeah I wear a mask. Because I can.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OldGranddad:
I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.
I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.
Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!
Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?
Old Granddad
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Yet, there's a whole lot of people as educated or more educated than you who believe that there is considerable value in wearing masks. Dr. Fauci is a good example. Should I believe him or you? I could waste days, months, and years of my life studying both sides of this issue, but in the end I would have to make a choice about which supposed experts seem to make the most sense.
Do you really believe that there is no benefit whatever in wearing masks? Do you yourself refuse to wear one? If it turns out there is a benefit in wearing masks, but enough people refuse to do so, then any benefit gained by the mask-wearers in regard to wiping out this epidemic will be vitiated, and it will just go on and on and on.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
ok, richard, here ya go, my responses interspersed in bold font:
"I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.
I challenge your receptivity and exposure to "anti-vaccers"... the term is tinged derogatorily, like 'conspiracy theorists'...
please share how many documentaries you've watched, articles and books you've read, interviews, etc. to come to your assessment of their having the "ring of paranoia".
If/since you haven't, you've no basis for your opinion - except what you've gotten via big pharma controlled media.
How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?
Endless deleted videos, accounts, entire websites with vast resources, gone. On vaccines and other topics.
Not knowing indicates you haven't been very aware and active online. Do others not know this? It's the new book-burning.
i'm not taking the time tonight to collate a list. LOTS THERE, or rather GONE.
a few on the topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtrdPulxDtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsd57EYyH_0
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...nd-censorship/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIBKsqQ-irc
And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?
I spend considerable time researching, and am not willing to do your research for you, to prove to you something which is abundantly clear to myself and the (few) others who are assiduous enough to explore and learn - in addition to just listening to the "radio while cooking and eating".
Neither NPR nor KPFA have been broadcasting the information which comes through the internet, via many sources I proffered weeks ago, on a list and then individually, for about 5 MONTHS now:
Del BigTree, London Real, Bet-David, Dr. Thomas Cowan, Ty and Charlene, Dr. Zack Bush, Dr. Christiane Northrup, Michel Chosudovsky, RFK Jr., etc., etc., etc.
I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.
I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend.
But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.
THIS, ABOVE, IS WHAT TRIGGERED MY (SOMEWHAT ANNOYED) FIRST REPLY: that you "refuse to take the many hours and explore the many sources of information" which I do
- yet you're "sure" and flummoxed by the existence of "other sources...that disagree" - implying that there's simply no way forward to know what's what... so that's that.
That is exactly where the intelligence part comes in, admittedly after putting in the time you've already said you refuse to...
DISCERNMENT. LOGIC. PATTERN RECOGNITION. AMASSING INFORMATION. HEARING THE RING OF TRUTH. SEEING THE VIDEOS OF DOCTORS AND PATIENTS, CHILDREN AND PARENTS, EX-CDC AND PHARMA AND FDC AND WHO, FROM DIFFERENT CONTINENTS AND LABS. Utterly fascinating, profoundly affecting, shocking and activating.
You've written that you found my initial reply "unfriendly and unhelpful". Perhaps this is more helpful.
And now that I've taken the time to reply to some of your questions will YOU now be taking the time to actually put your attention on some of the resources offered here? or will chopping wood, and other necessities continue to preclude your looking, listening, giving a true hearing to what this is about, hmmmm? Frankly, I'd bet on the latter, which is what summoned my considerably briefer reply.
But hope springs eternal. Ball's in your court. Love, Jude
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
richard,
i took the time to respond in detail to you, though i believed it pointless, as i wrote in conclusion.
your response here has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with with my response.at least try.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
Yet, there's a whole lot of people as educated or more educated than you who believe that there is considerable value in wearing masks. Dr. Fauci is a good example. Should I believe him or you? I could waste days, months, and years of my life studying both sides of this issue, but in the end I would have to make a choice about which supposed experts seem to make the most sense.
Do you really believe that there is no benefit whatever in wearing masks? Do you yourself refuse to wear one? If it turns out there is a benefit in wearing masks, but enough people refuse to do so, then any benefit gained by the mask-wearers in regard to wiping out this epidemic will be vitiated, and it will just go on and on and on.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I think my response was absolutely germane, and once again you have refused to answer my questions (you know, those things with question marks after them). Your post was little more than a list of all the massive sources of information and opinion you believe in and want me to study, and I told you why I'm not inclined to wander into that morass.
Instead of flooding me with all your trusted expert sources, I would rather have you state succinctly just what it is that you believe and why.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
richard,
i took the time to respond in detail to you, though i believed it pointless, as i wrote in conclusion.
your response here has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with with my response. at least try.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
this is a no-win discussion: when i present the ample basis for my views, you don't care to examine it ("...wander into that morass") but repeatedly insist that i say what i believe and why.
when i do, you write that others "as educated and more educated" have different views, though you don't offer the studies, articles, etc.
once again, i will say: it is clear to me that vaccinations are extremely problematic; that censorship is rampant and strategic. since you will not do your own exploration, there is no point in further discussion.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
I think my response was absolutely germane, and once again you have refused to answer my questions (you know, those things with question marks after them). Your post was little more than a list of all the massive sources of information and opinion you believe in and want me to study, and I told you why I'm not inclined to wander into that morass.
Instead of flooding me with all your trusted expert sources, I would rather have you state succinctly just what it is that you believe and why.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
this is a no-win discussion: when i present the ample basis for my views, you don't care to examine it ("...wander into that morass") but repeatedly insist that i say what i believe and why.
when i do, you write that others "as educated and more educated" have different views, though you don't offer the studies, articles, etc.
once again, i will say: it is clear to me that vaccinations are extremely problematic; that censorship is rampant and strategic. ....
If you substituted 'potentially' for 'extremely' in the last sentence I clipped, I'd have no argument. I understand if you don't feel like bothering with yet more links; I certainly am not promising to read them. But.. I really find the information density of video to be way low, it's a great medium for advocacy but poor for information. The only link I saw that was to print was one that took me to an article:
"How Bill Gates Controls Global Messaging and Censorship"
which kind of gives away its slant - it comes down to attempting to show these people aren't trustworthy. It would be nice to have a list of a few print sites that are a bit more focused on the details of the research itself, ideally with a little bit of an attempt to address what level of confidence its conclusions deserve. Possibly this isn't worth your while, but figured I'd ask anyway.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
i myself like seeing and hearing the people in videos - full range of doctors, scientists, parents, children, teachers, etc. and the documentaries are very powerful. But some like reading; since you're clearly literate and capable of searching for yourself, if you're sincerely inquiring i do wonder why you haven't bothered, but here's the first link that i've found searching for you:
http://www.chiropractic.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1200-studies-The-Truth-Will-Prevail-3.pdf
here are links to 1200 hundred studies.
also: https://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Whist.../dp/1634509951
and more to be found with a little effort, if deemed necessary.
i find continuing this thread emotionally exhausting but worth it if you actually read at least some of this.
it is simply not possible to dismiss the amassed work.
looking forward to your assessment.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
If you substituted 'potentially' for 'extremely' in the last sentence I clipped, I'd have no argument. I understand if you don't feel like bothering with yet more links; I certainly am not promising to read them. But.. I really find the information density of video to be way low, it's a great medium for advocacy but poor for information. The only link I saw that was to print was one that took me to an article:
"How Bill Gates Controls Global Messaging and Censorship"
which kind of gives away its slant - it comes down to attempting to show these people aren't trustworthy. It would be nice to have a list of a few print sites that are a bit more focused on the details of the research itself, ideally with a little bit of an attempt to address what level of confidence its conclusions deserve. Possibly this isn't worth your while, but figured I'd ask anyway.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
i myself like seeing and hearing the people in videos - full range of doctors, scientists, parents, children, teachers, etc. and the documentaries are
very powerful. But some like reading; since you're clearly literate and capable of searching for yourself, if you're sincerely inquiring i do wonder why you haven't bothered, but here's the first link that i've found searching for you:
http://www.chiropractic.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1200-studies-The-Truth-Will-Prevail-3.pdf
there are links to hundreds of studies.
looking forward to your assessment.
ok, since you ask for an assessment:
I will follow some of these links over the next few days, but.. i was immediately dismayed by the title "Truth will prevail" and the cover photo of a white baby. This is clearly advocacy, but the author is clearly passionate about his perspective and it looks like there's a nicely dense argument being made. So thanks. As for videos, I agree they're often powerful, but they aren't typically informative -- unless the person watching is a bit of a blank slate. So for example, the BLM videos coming out work pretty well to make white people aware of things they may have been ignoring, but if you've been at all engaged in your culture, or have any sense of history, there's no new information there. Video's there more to motivate than inform.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
By "ample basis" do you mean your lengthy list of experts who agree with you?
What's the point of offering you "the studies, articles, etc"? You know as well as I do that your anti-vax view is in the minority; you even said that yourself in a previous post. For every expert you present, there will be another expert who disagrees.
What's wrong with repeatedly asking you to succinctly say what you believe and why? I'm offering you a chance to explain your views about vaccination. I'm truly curious, Judith! Instead of flooding me with expert references and taking an adversarial attitude as if we're trying to win a debate, why don't you just give me a brief overview of the harm you believe has been caused by vaccinations?
You did not reply to my statement that I and many other people had already had many vaccinations as children right on up to yearly flu vaccinations as adults, mostly with no apparent ill effects. And thank god we did not contract the horrible diseases for which we were protected! What's wrong with that?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
this is a no-win discussion: when i present the ample basis for my views, you don't care to examine it ("...wander into that morass") but repeatedly insist that i say what i believe and why.
when i do, you write that others "as educated and more educated" have different views, though you don't offer the studies, articles, etc.
once again, i will say: it is clear to me that vaccinations are extremely problematic; that censorship is rampant and strategic. since you will not do your own exploration, there is no point in further discussion.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Judith, I'm re-sending this post because I feel that it deserves a response!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
By "ample basis" do you mean your lengthy list of experts who agree with you?
What's the point of offering you "the studies, articles, etc"? You know as well as I do that your anti-vax view is in the minority; you even said that yourself in a previous post. For every expert you present, there will be another expert who disagrees.
What's wrong with repeatedly asking you to succinctly say what you believe and why? I'm offering you a chance to explain your views about vaccination. I'm truly curious, Judith! Instead of flooding me with expert references and taking an adversarial attitude as if we're trying to win a debate, why don't you just give me a brief overview of the harm you believe has been caused by vaccinations?
You did not reply to my statement that I and many other people had already had many vaccinations as children right on up to yearly flu vaccinations as adults, mostly with no apparent ill effects. And thank god we did not contract the horrible diseases for which we were protected! What's wrong with that?
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:
Judith, I'm re-sending this post because I feel that it deserves a response!
I'm not sure I agree it deserves a response. Is there any doubt about what those of us post here believe, or why? And it's not obvious that there is a succinct way to explain 'why'. Like Richard Feynman said when asked if he could give a simple explanation of magnetism, the answer is likely to be "sorry, a simple one doesn't exist".
Personally, I think I understand why from her posts. I'm sort of interested in seeing if I can find one of them that convinces me, someday.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...c-coronavirus/
Masks work. Now we need to pay attention to when and where, and which kind.
It’s not whether to wear face coverings we should be considering. It’s the specifics about use and type.
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Mask mandates work. In South Carolina, locales with mask mandates had a 46 percent greater decrease in covid-19 cases than locales without mask mandates. In Kansas, counties that adopted mask mandates had a striking reduction in cases.
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The profusion of homemade face masks, although they may encourage use and engage volunteers and communities in production, obscures important differences in effectiveness. If an N95 or surgical mask isn’t being used, a tightfitting mask with three layers consisting of cotton or cotton-synthetic material is next best.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Ok... let's put all the experts in the field as well as those that somehow "earned" a PHD aside for a moment and look at the facts logically.
We know that Covid is mostly spread by aerosolized droplets.
We know that people- when they talk, yell, sing, sneeze, cough, etc spread these droplets to one degree or another.
We know, that a face covering (and increasingly those of specific types) , will indeed help stop the spread of these droplets to others.
So...wtf was the question of the original post?
And, let's let look at the first two posts from the person that started this thread, shall we?
Despite the claims - Karen, oh excuse me... I think her name was Peggy... I'm sorry but the OC Public Health Official Nichole Quick did not resign because your claims were "right"... she resigned- as many public health officials have. around this country during the pandemic, because they were tired of the death threats, of having to be given a protective detail by the Sheriffs, tired of "protests" outside their houses, tired of themselves and their family being harassed and threatened.
I'll admit- I applaud these health officials around our nation that have resigned. When your job is to protect the people in your area- and these people prove themselves to be unworthy of protection... yes, walk away.
As to the 2nd post by the "OP" (I believe it's the 4th post? ... the study in Vietnam about masks has no relevance (no surprise it was posted as if it did). That study was about protecting the wearer of the mask- not about protecting others.
I find it pretty deeply disturbing that the vast majority of the anti-maskers come from "the (far) right", with the remainder tending to come from the very far left. On many, many issues- it seems the far right and the far left often have more common then than the traditional left/right dichotomy.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Time will tell wether masks work. Past real studies show they have efficacy in surgical settings but less real knowledge in public spheres. In now required masking seems to have real impact in slowing spread of inevitable exposure to covid. But is this more an aspect of economic privilege? Is it better to ask questions, or pontificate without naming credentials? I have none besides curiousity.
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Posted in reply to the post by socoexpat:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
And why do you demonize questioners as far left or right? Reads like you don't like questions. What about sweden? No masks, death by million stalled at less then 600, and still doing better than their oil rich offspring norway economically. Reads like you have a polical economic personal agenda. I can name mine, can you?
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Posted in reply to the post by socoexpat:
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