Best of Political Humor - January 2019 - Discussion

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

The Democrats are building their own wall. It’s a growing wall of big government statism, endless war, globalism, and higher taxes that race toward socialism.

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While I welcome your contributions from another point of view, Ray, I do ask that you also pay heed to the subject of this thread, as I do, which is Political HUMOR. So please select cartoons that at least attempt to be funny, even if the vast majority of our readers may not agree with you, or, sadly, see the humor. Or to put it another way, go ahead and poke fun at the {evil} left, not just restate your talking points in graphical format. :waccosun:

Political humor is by nature controversial. If we choose to judge what's funny in a political cartoon, maybe we just don't get it. Look at our current president. Can we all agree that the guy is hilarious? If you don't, maybe you're just a bit too serious? YES!

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

While I welcome your contributions from another point of view, Ray, ...

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Humor is entirely subjective, isn't it?

I often find the "humorous" cartoons posted on this board viscous, uninformed, one-sided and bitter. That said, I hope we can all still laugh at our own inherent prejudices and reflect on our feelings of moral superiority. And respect "diverse" points of view. We don't all need to think alike.

My interpretation of free speech includes the right to be offended by another's viewpoint(s) and still remain in dialogue, visual or otherwise, and in connection with each other on the basis of our common shared humanity.

Clearly my point of view is the minority in this forum, and I appreciate your openness and generosity in not censoring it.

Thanks, brother.

Hey Ray, I'm actually delighted to see these very well drawn cartoons that come with a right-wing perspective! It's a rare treat, where do you find them, send more! I love the sinister, deranged expressions on the faces of Schumer and Pelosi! But a few questions: What is the red stuff pouring through the open borders door? Who is S. King, in the picture on the wall? What is the upside-down star symbol on the other picture? What's wrong with Swedish socialism--do the Swedes feel oppressed? What's with the red "Russia Russia Russia" poster--do you think the Democrats are more into Russia than the Trumpsters?! And do you really think that Democrats are more into endless war than Republicans?? Please explain!

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...1_11-04-10.png


The Democrats are building their own wall. It’s a growing wall of big government statism, endless war, globalism, and higher taxes that race toward socialism.

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...1_11-04-36.png

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Thank you for your cartoon posts and refreshingly open attitude. Cartoons often use exaggeration to make a point humorous, and though I'm often on the other side of your political aisle, I enjoyed your perspective.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Humor is entirely subjective, isn't it? ...

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What do you mean by "viscous" ?

I basically agree with you that we don't all need to think alike, and that we should strive to remain in connection with each other on the basis of our common shared humanity. The problem arises when we left wingers see things such as cold blooded treatment of poor, desperate migrants, or brutal wars that seem to be solely in the interest of wealthy capitalists. It's like when you see someone being beaten up by thugs, it's not healthy to say well, we just have a different point of view from those people. If you have a loving heart you have to take a stand and oppose what you perceive to be brutality and oppression.

That said, I welcome any opportunity to discuss differences with people of a right wing bent. I'm truly curious to comprehend their mind set and feelings. Most people, including myself, only fraternize with people who share their attitudes and beliefs. I also think that most people harbor suppressed feelings of anger, which may enjoy the opportunity to put down and fight with people you have an excuse to dislike.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Humor is entirely subjective, isn't it?

I often find the "humorous" cartoons posted on this board viscous, uninformed, one-sided and bitter.

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DISCLAIMER: Do not try this at home...this is only meant for highly trained professionals...:):

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...1_11-34-35.png

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

DISCLAIMER: Do not try this at home...this is only meant for highly trained professionals...:):

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco..._11-34-35a.png

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So if I burn my fingers Trump won’t be my president???

Right...the design may need to be modified...but we'll ship it as is and fix it in V 2.0...it should be ready by the time your fingers heal...

And technically, if you're still alive, burnt fingers or not, and are an American citizen, like it or not, Trump is your President.

Never my president!
He is illegitimate.
Remember: Hillary is the rightful president!

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

...And technically, if you're still alive, burnt fingers or not, and are an American citizen, like it or not, Trump is your President.

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Sorry, it was a typo. I meant "vicious" - malicious and spiteful; not "viscous" - having a thick or sticky consistency. The consequences of late night pontification...

We do need to stay connected with our fellow humans through dialogue rather than diatribe. True dialogue includes the willingness of each participant to learn from and change opinions as a result of curiosity, open-hearted interaction and intent listening.

Personally, I don't align or identify myself as liberal, conservative, left wing, right wing, etc.. The forces that want power over us want us divided along those and many other lines; race, sex, religion to name a few. I am for spiritual independence and personal sovereignty.

An in depth discussion of the social and political ills you mentioned would exceed the limits of this board as they are complex, layered and not to be solved with slogans or pronouncements. It would require in person verbal intercourse, most likely with coffee, tea, beer, wine, kombucha, etc. involved.

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

What do you mean by "viscous" ?

I basically agree with you that we don't all need to think alike, and that we should strive to remain in connection with each other on the basis of our common shared humanity. ...

That said, I welcome any opportunity to discuss differences with people of a right wing bent. I'm truly curious to comprehend their mind set and feelings. ...

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While I disagree with your opinion, I respect your right to hold it.

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Posted in reply to the post by pdfender:

Never my president!
He is illegitimate.
Remember: Hillary is the rightful president!

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Not surprising that you believe the device pictured could result in death - scientific fact isn’t generally a strong suit for Trump supporters 

Not surprising that those suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome can't take a joke...or see humor that isn't at the expense of Trump.

No, using the device pictured wouldn't result in death. Before the beaker blew the metal would heat up and as jimmartha noted, burn your finger.

Clearly, you didn't find it any funnier than I find the political "humor" usually on wacco.

But if you want to stop believing and spreading FAKE NEWS, which is opinion as opposed to fact, Trump actually is, in fact, the President of the United States. You may not like that, you may think he is the devil incarnate, or you may have the OPINION that he is not your President but when you go to whitehouse.gov you will see that Donald J Trump actually IS the President. And as a matter of fact, if you are a US citizen, then technically, in fact not opinion or preference, he IS YOUR PRESIDENT.

You may also note that under the current laws Hillary lost the election in the Electoral College. She is not the President. You may think of her as YOUR president, but that is only delusion and denial of objective fact. I get it that you don't care for Trump, but if you're going to be a stickler for FACTS, you might consider looking at ALL the facts, not just the ones that fit your perceptual bias.

We may not agree on everything :-), but nice sparring with you. Have a Nice Day

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Posted in reply to the post by Jimnmartha:

Not surprising that you believe the device pictured could result in death - scientific fact isn’t generally a strong suit for Trump supporters 

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

No, but the manufacturing was outsourced to Mexico...it was designed by the Russians, stolen and manufactured by the Chinese, brought into the country illegally by MS-13 from Honduras and sold on Amazon from the UK...truly a global triumph!

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Of course you know that MS-13 originated in the USA and WE exported it to Honduras resulting in some of the refugee crisis at our southern boarder.

Ah, yes. One more reason to hate ourselves and America...when the rest of the world is so perfect.

Actually MS-13 was started by Salvadorean immigrants, most likely illegal, in Los Angeles as a response to their persecution by the Crips and Bloods. All three were products of the CIA (Cocaine Import Agency), living on the Urban Plantation of the Democrat Party in the ghettos of the inner city.

WE THE PEOPLE, didn't export MS-13 to Honduras, the Deep State shadow government of which the CIA is a large part, exported it under the presidencies of Clinton, the Bushes and Obama. All bought and paid for silver tongued globalist stooges spouting the seductive siren song of "surrender your freedom for safety"...America is evil...open / no borders...socialism is the solution for class disparities...and much more.

What's happening at the border now is not a refugee crisis, it's an invasion. It's not an organic group of refugees. Most of these "refugees" are being bused and trucked to the border by highly organized groups that don't have your or my best interests as their goal. The women and children are being used and are pushed to the front for the news cameras by the organizers of the invasion. Like Darth Vader in Star Wars, they use our compassion against us to defeat our resistance to their agenda.

But, of course, you can dismiss it all as a wild 'conspiracy theory' because you didn't hear it on CNN, read it in the NYT, or any of the other alphabet propaganda media. Brainwashed, bent over and participating in your own destruction. I say all this because I care about human dignity and freedom. Have a Nice Day.

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Posted in reply to the post by Jimnmartha:

Of course you know that MS-13 originated in the USA and WE exported it to Honduras resulting in some of the refugee crisis at our southern boarder.

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According to the cartoonist, the red stuff is blood, the blood of the Americans killed by illegal immigrants. The scene is a parody of the elevator scene from 'The Shining", by Steven King (S. King). The inverted pentacle is a symbol of Satan. Pelosi and Schumer are like the two evil children. It is saying that their press conference was a horror show.

As for your inquiry into Socialism: Socialism is all based on theft at gunpoint. Take from one class, give to another. To paraphrase Karl Marx, "The purpose of Socialism is to lead to Communism." It has always led to totalitarianism in the end. Sweden isn't at that end yet. To quote Margaret Thatcher, "Socialism is fine until you run out of other people's money." As in Venezuela. Sweden hasn't run out yet, but it is starting to due to unchecked Islamic migration from the Middle East and Africa. Give it another 10 years and let's see how great it is.

Russia: Trump has been harder on Russia, policy wise, than any of the globalist stooge presidents: Clinton, the Bushes, and Obama. Hillary and the Democrat administration were responsible for selling 20% of our uranium to Russia after generous donations to the Clinton Foundation. The DNC paid for the fake, still uncorroborated dossier, used to obtain FISA warrants by the Obama administration to illegally spy on the Trump campaign. The Deep State establishment Democrats AND Republicans are so desperate to get rid of Trump because he upset their power base that if they had any real evidence of the so called Russia collusion he would have been gone long ago. So, yes, I think the Dems are more into Russia. Just my opinion. I respect your right to live in an alternate reality :-)...

As far as endless wars go, Eisenhower's "Beware the Military Industrial complex" quote comes to mind. They buy politicians on both sides. Trump is bringing troops home from Syria and the Deep State Media screams. They didn't scream when Obama sent them there. They want war because it makes them money. They don't care about humanity.

If you have the courage and willingness to explore an idea that would mean, as the Firesign Theater says, "Everything you know is wrong.", search for this on youtube - "Q-Plan to Save the World." It poses an alternate to the Dem / Republican, liberal / conservative plan to divide the world. Of course it has been debunked by the Fake News media as a conspiracy theory, but, think for yourself. Don't let them tell you what to think. What if it is true? Can you expand your mind and change your perspective? Maybe. Either way, I respect you and wish you well. Namaste'

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

... But a few questions: What is the red stuff pouring through the open borders door? Who is S. King, in the picture on the wall? What is the upside-down star symbol on the other picture? What's wrong with Swedish socialism--do the Swedes feel oppressed? What's with the red "Russia Russia Russia" poster--do you think the Democrats are more into Russia than the Trumpsters?! And do you really think that Democrats are more into endless war than Republicans?? Please explain!

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Somebody drank the Koolaid.

So would you have felt the same if Trump had gotten almost 3 million more votes than Hilary, but still lost in the Electoral College? Just checkin' ! And do you agree that the Electoral College should be abolished in favor of a simple, straightforward majority---here in this supposed world bastion of Democracy?

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

...You may also note that under the current laws Hillary lost the election in the Electoral College. ...

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Hey Ray, how did you get all this amazing inside information about who these supposed refugees really are?

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

...What's happening at the border now is not a refugee crisis, it's an invasion. It's not an organic group of refugees. Most of these "refugees" are being bused and trucked to the border by highly organized groups that don't have your or my best interests as their goal.....

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How do you know all these things, Ray? What is your inside scoop?

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

No, but the manufacturing was outsourced to Mexico...it was designed by the Russians, stolen and manufactured by the Chinese, brought into the country illegally by MS-13 from Honduras and sold on Amazon from the UK...truly a global triumph!

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Dear me, Ray, that looks like an awful lot of blood! So how many Americans have been killed by illegal immigrants? I thought it was 6 last I heard, but perhaps you have a better source of reliable information. I had also heard that the murder rate among immigrants is lower than among American citizens, but maybe that's just hogwash from the immigrant-loving media I listen to.

I mentioned Sweden, but I have heard that Norway and many other European countries including Britain and Ireland also have government funded health care. Canada too. Is this true? So do you see signs that these counties are going down the tubes due to this socialistic folly? Are their citizens begging to do away with these medical systems and go back to a treatment for profit system like ours?

Islamic migration in Europe is indeed a problem, but isn't the source of the problem horrendous violence and oppression in their own countries?

As for Trump & Co's relationship with Russia, more and more alarming facts seem to keep bubbling up, and we'll just have to see how the Mueller investigation pans out. I must say, though, that Trump seems rather apoplectic about it already.

I certainly share your distaste for the Military Industrial Complex, and agree that both sides of the political isle are complicit in bloating it. But I think that the complaints about suddenly bringing troops home from Syria have more to do with leaving our allies unexpectedly hanging, as well as just even further abandoning the people of Syria to the tyranny of Assad and--once again--Russia!

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

According to the cartoonist, the red stuff is blood, the blood of the Americans killed by illegal immigrants. The scene is a parody of the elevator scene from 'The Shining", ...

As for your inquiry into Socialism: ...
Russia: ...
As far as endless wars go, ...

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Who drank the koolaid?

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

Dear me, Ray, that looks like an awful lot of blood! So how many Americans have been killed by illegal immigrants? I thought it was 6 last I heard, but perhaps you have a better source of reliable information. I had also heard that the murder rate among immigrants is lower than among American citizens, but maybe that's just hogwash from the immigrant-loving media I listen to.

I mentioned Sweden, but I have heard that Norway and many other European countries including Britain and Ireland also have government funded health care. Canada too. Is this true? So do you see signs that these counties are going down the tubes due to this socialistic folly? Are their citizens begging to do away with these medical systems and go back to a treatment for profit system like ours?

Islamic migration in Europe is indeed a problem, but isn't the source of the problem horrendous violence and oppression in their own countries?

As for Trump & Co's relationship with Russia, more and more alarming facts seem to keep bubbling up, and we'll just have to see how the Mueller investigation pans out. I must say, though, that Trump seems rather apoplectic about it already.

I certainly share your distaste for the Military Industrial Complex, and agree that both sides of the political isle are complicit in bloating it. But I think that the complaints about suddenly bringing troops home from Syria have more to do with leaving our allies unexpectedly hanging, as well as just even further abandoning the people of Syria to the tyranny of Assad and--once again--Russia!

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Know, nobody really knows. Unless you're actually there and see it for yourself we're all dealing with second, third, or more hand rumor. Even photos lie by implication and exclusion. For me, going off the beaten path, tuning out the corporate media, thinking a bit for myself, choosing what I want to believe are what I do.

OR, in the words of Frank Zappa:
“Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system. Forget about the Senior Prom and go to the library and educate yourself if you've got any guts. Some of you like Pep rallies and plastic robots who tell you what to read.”

These days, IMHO, the plastic robots are predominantly the Democrat Media Machine and their talking heads, all reading from the same script. Don't you ever notice that the same phrases and opinions masquerading as news appear on every channel you listen to / read? It's really a brilliant brainwashing tool.

HOWEVER, in the words of Zippy the Pinhead "But I didn't want my brain washed..."

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

How do you know all these things, Ray? What is your inside scoop?

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In terms of objective reality it matters not how you, I, or anyone else FEELS about it. I wasn't happy with Obama's treason for 8 years, but unfortunately at that time he was my president. Nothing I did changed that.

The United States is not a Demoracy, which is technically mob rule and mass bullying, we are a Representative Republic so the smaller states don't get bullied by the bigger ones.

Again, you may not like it, agree with it, or approve of it; but that is reality at the moment.

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

So would you have felt the same if Trump had gotten almost 3 million more votes than Hilary, but still lost in the Electoral College? Just checkin' ! And do you agree that the Electoral College should be abolished in favor of a simple, straightforward majority---here in this supposed world bastion of Democracy?

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Ray,
You really did drink the Koolaid.
You’re quite delusional.
Watching too much Faux news. Not news. Just bad entertainment.

Thanks for sharing. I feel the same way about you. Given this, how can we respect and relate with each other in spite of our differences of OPINION? We are human beings first, and political beliefs second, I hope.

That could make the world a better place, right?

Or we could just yell at each other, feel morally superior, say mean things to each other, etc...let's be the change we want to see.

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Posted in reply to the post by pdfender:

Ray,
You really did drink the Koolaid.
You’re quite delusional.
Watching too much Faux news. Not news. Just bad entertainment.

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You are entitled to your opinion. However, you write as if they were facts. You’re hiding in a cave.
Please educate yourself.

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Posted in reply to the post by pdfender:

You are entitled to your opinion. However, you write as if they were facts. You’re hiding in a cave.
Please educate yourself.

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Thank you. So you mean it I disagree with your OPINIONS I am uneducated?

You seem to be parroting the Mainstream Mockingbird Media talking points that eliminate 90% of the facts and use the remaining 10% to fit a far left lunatic narrative. I've lived in Sebastopol and been in the "bubble".

If, as you stated, you believe that Hillary is your president, you may be the one living in a cave.

Consider this:

"In his 1841 book Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, Scottish journalist Charles Mackay chronicled the history of the phenomena we now see gripping the Resistance movement to the Trump presidency. Writing on national delusions, moral panics, economic bubbles, and herd behavior, Mackay observed, "We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first."

Mackay documents the manias that made traders turn tulips into the most expensive objects on earth in the mid-1600s, caused Christian communities in the American colonies to torture and execute "witches," and caused European nobles to sponsor alchemists to turn base metals into gold (and imprison them until they succeeded). Of these and many other episodes of mass hysteria, Mackay wrote, "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."

In the present madness commonly known as "Trump Derangement Syndrome," the Resistance is led, in order of influence, by Hollywood entertainers, New York City journalists, and Washington Democrat politicians. By any objective measure, all three groups have failed utterly at their primary jobs to entertain, inform, and lead – at least in any way that inspires, educates, or solves problems. Instead, the most notable features of these groups is their desperate need for attention (in an age of unprecedented media saturation) and their obsession with being seen as morally superior to us commoners – the latter to justify the former. Two ingredients combined to create the alchemy of madness now consuming our national politics."

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

And now for the rest of the story...


https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...1_22-19-01.png

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Snopes: Is This a Wall Around Nancy Pelosi’s Home?

SERIOUSLY???

You're Snoping this cartoon after some of the stuff you post?

It's humor, not a court of law.

Do we really need to rebut each other's humor?

...I thought the one of Hillary and Trump on the phone was the funniest of them all...

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Snopes: Is This a Wall Around Nancy Pelosi’s Home?

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

...You're Snoping this cartoon after some of the stuff you post?...

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maybe not "rebut", but think about what's purportedly funny about this. So, it's not funny. It's random, dada maybe, but by the epistemology of jokes (if there is such a thing -- that's a joke) it doesn't qualify as a joke. It's supposed to be funny because it catches people in a hypocrisy, but when there's no hypocrisy, there's no joke. Get it? There's a stereotype that the right has no sense of humor. It'd be nice to see that disproven. (the funeral one's actually pretty good....)

I agree that would be a great standard to apply to the Hate Trump Hysteria cartoons.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

maybe not "rebut", but think about what's purportedly funny about this. So, it's not funny. It's random, dada maybe, but by the epistemology of jokes (if there is such a thing -- that's a joke) it doesn't qualify as a joke. It's supposed to be funny because it catches people in a hypocrisy, but when there's no hypocrisy, there's no joke. Get it? There's a stereotype that the right has no sense of humor. It'd be nice to see that disproven. (the funeral one's actually pretty good....)

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

I agree that would be a great standard to apply to the Hate Trump Hysteria cartoons.

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I think people have repeatedly explained why the 'hate trump' is reasonable. His racism, dishonesty and lack of empathy are kind of a given, even to those who tolerate him, aren't they? So a political cartoon that illuminates those qualities of his does have a chance to be funny (in the limited sense of the term that applies to editorial cartoons). As far as 'hate trump hysteria', I suppose that's a thing, in that some people get pretty worked up over his excesses, but it's pretty rare and doesn't apply generally to people who react negatively to him. He's pretty provocative.

On the theme of why some of this stuff isn't funny - in the Pelosi/Trump cartoon below, the underlying conceit is that Trump is taking his stand for serious reasons and Pelosi is being frivolous. (It's pretty misogynistic, too. ) I suppose if someone actually believed that, this might be funny. Political cartoons can highlight that dynamic of a situation. But since that's a ludicrous thing to believe, it's not funny and certainly not funny enough to justify the misogyny in it. An offensive joke may be tolerable if it's also a funny joke, but offensive statements are usually just offensive.

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/attac...1&d=1548136994

Thank you for your comments. Very true. Unfortunately, a certain individual refuses to see the truth. I won’t mention any names Ray...cough cough).

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

I think people have repeatedly explained why the 'hate trump' is reasonable...

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No, I'm right. No, I'm right. No, I'm right. No, I'm right.

Maybe it's time for couple's counseling...

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Posted in reply to the post by pdfender:

Thank you for your comments. Very true. Unfortunately, a certain individual refuses to see the truth. I won’t mention any names Ray...cough cough).

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Well said, podfish!

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

I think people have repeatedly explained why the 'hate trump' is reasonable. His racism, dishonesty and lack of empathy are kind of a given, ...

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I think you raise a salient point, Ray. People in general have a lot of more or less suppressed anger that enjoys getting into a battle of insults. I'm more interested in trying to understand your mind and character. Wacco people tend to be on the left of the political spectrum, and even so it is not uncommon for them to get into internecine squabbles. I actually don't know any people that are not on the left, so you provide an interesting opportunity to get to know someone who is more on the right but is obviously intelligent and reaching out in this forum for communication and understanding. I'm glad to meet you, and I thank Barry for posting your cartoons and providing this opportunity.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

No, I'm right. No, I'm right. No, I'm right. No, I'm right.

Maybe it's time for couple's counseling...

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Sorry to be stupid, but I just don't get that first cartoon.
The second one, with Trump's red cloak of supposed "accomplishments", certainly provides ample opportunity for debate!

The last two I "get," but why does one guy in the last cartoon have a red cap? I thought that was a symbol of Republicanism.

And again, what's wrong with socialism? In a previous post I pointed out that many countries in Europe as well as Canada have it to some degree, and seem to be happy with it. But you never responded. This is basic!

Also, Occihoff, you forgot to mention the socialism (government-run programs for the benefit of all the citizens) we already have here: Medicare, Social Security, labor laws, the military, the Post Office, public safety, civil rights, etc. etc.

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

S...And again, what's wrong with socialism? In a previous post I pointed out that many countries in Europe as well as Canada have it to some degree, and seem to be happy with it. ...

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https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...4_10-18-48.png

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...4_10-22-20.png

How Much Aid Does U.s. Give To Central America? Trump Says He's Cutting Funding To El Salvador, Guatemala And Honduras Over Migrant Caravan

Ray drank the Koolaid.
Obviously he’s/ she’s an anti-Democrat.
Ugh!

How horrible we don't all think and believe the same...those damn others...why can't they be enlightened like me, after all I know the truth and what's right !!! :-)

Lighten up, it's humor...and besides it appears that there is enough koolaid to go around..perhaps we just drink different brands...

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Posted in reply to the post by pdfender:

Ray drank the Koolaid.
Obviously he’s/ she’s an anti-Democrat.
Ugh!

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Stop responding.
I refuse to go to battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
You speak b.s.
I’m over and done. Good bye.
Go bury your head in the sand. That’s where it is anyway.

I see, the story I make up from your responses is that you want the last word, and you want to be right. You want to be insulting and you justify your contempt for diversity of opinion and lack of humor with your transparent scarcity of substance. I'm ok with that. I respect your right to live your life as you choose. The good news is that Sebastopol is full of excellent therapists.

I make up that you feel morally superior when, in reality, you have expressed no intelligent ideas, only put downs and insults directed at me because I dared express an opinion different from the ones you have convinced yourself are acceptable.

If your idea of intelligent discourse is "Ray drank the koolaid", "you speak bs", and the battle of wits with an unarmed opponent comment are the best you can do, then, yes, by all means stop responding. No intelligent dialogue of ideas, no curiosity about anything because you know it all, just childish insults. I certainly don't derive my sense of self-worth from your approval.

As I sit here happily with my ice cold, 32 oz supersized mug of koolaid, I wish you well. Namaste'

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Posted in reply to the post by pdfender:

...I refuse to go to battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. ...

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I’m so happy to hear that there are plenty of therapists In Sebastopol. Hope you find yourself a good one.
But good luck. Nothing will change your spiritual bankruptcy.

ok, Ray, you sound reasonable. So how can you post some of the images you do? They speak to you somehow? for example, the cartoon of the poor across the wall from the rich. That's supposed to be an illustration of Democratic hypocrisy or something? They serve that koolaid at Fox, I gather, but I see why pofender goes there. Sure, the Dems are led by some wealthy people. So are Repubs. But it's extremely hard to demonstrate that the Repubs have improved anything for their poorer supporters, beyond feeding their emotions - resentment of "moochers", fear of the other, etc. The Repubs gladly lead crusades like that. The Democrats may not be as successful at raising the prosperity of the poor as they aim to be, but to claim it's all a pose on their part isn't based on much evidence, just on a sour view of human nature.

So that's just one example. But lots of the supposedly-humorous or illuminating cartoons you've selected (and I find this true of the annoying 'Lisa' the PressDemo uses as balance) really just are illustrations of right-wing tropes. I suppose if you have that world view, it's satisfying to see it echoed, but it's pretty tedious for anyone who doesn't like that flavor of koolaid. Occasionally some are illuminating of an alternate point of view, but only very occasionally. Still, they're free and pixels are available in big quantities. So go for it, I guess.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

ok, Ray, you sound reasonable. So how can you post some of the images you do? ...

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Hi. Perhaps you prefer a palate of "acceptable" images that don't offend your sensibilities and conform to your prejudices?

I post those images to provide a balance to the hateful, sometimes irrational, factually inaccurate, and one-sided cartoons on the board.

What, it's ok to demonize one set of ideas and never permit the expression of another? That is what happens in a totalitarian socialist utopia where people are imprisoned and executed as "thought criminals". Where books are burned and ideas suppressed.

One of the freedoms we still (somewhat, but no thanks to the Democrats) enjoy in America is the right to express ideas that may be repugnant to some people. Not to act violently, not to abuse people, but to freely express ideas. It's ok to glorify someone holding an image of Trump's severed head, but not ok to lampoon the sacred cow democrat party?

You don't have to agree with Trump to overcome the non stop onslaught of corporate controlled media propaganda demonizing him and accept that he is most likely a decent human being who is pursuing a path that is genuine and meaningful to him, even if it is diametrically opposed to your values and beliefs. (a blasphemous thought on wacco for sure)

I applaud Barry for permitting a balance to the far left hate Trump cartoons that have dominated this board.

I got tired of complaining to myself about the one sided nature of the political discourse here and took positive, peaceful action to expand the dialogue. Mostly I think they are funny. To each his own.

We may not agree on many things, but we can treat each other with civility, respect and love each other as fellow human beings, can't we? Hope so.

You'll recognize me at the next annual wacco picnic by my red MAGA hat, hillbilly outfit, and Build The Wall T shirt...but it will already be built by then...:-)

TTFN

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Hi. Perhaps you prefer a palate of "acceptable" images that don't offend your sensibilities and conform to your prejudices?....

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who said they're unacceptable? I just said they're stupid (to put it politely). Demonize? that's again hyperbole, resonant of the victimization felt by the self-proclaimed winners. We've failed to realize our hoped-for socialist utopia, I think you'd acknowledge.

I'd like to see someone expand the political discourse. Drawings that just present the tropes of the right, especially ones that are the least defensible tropes, are, as I said, annoyingly stupid. Not that I have anything against being annoying.

So for more examples, the one with the Statue of Liberty, pushing the idea that the left is all about 'free stuff', is a preach-to-the-choir Fox talking point. I suppose you could stretch and say that what benefits should be 'free' (access to roads, high school, police services) vs. paid for (colleges, water & power) is a legitimate issue. That's sadly not where the current discussions are going. So I call that one stupid. Strictly academically, I see more legitimacy in the one with the three Democrat geezers talking about the need for youth - or even the unfair one with the cash-filled truck heading south.

Humor may be in the eye of the beholder, but there are some widely-observed standards to judge it. We generally aren't as amused by potty humor as when we were two-year-olds, for example. It'd be nice, since you're trying to expand the range of political humor here, to give us the best, not just the stuff that appeals to the yahoo faction. And yeah, I'm not reluctant to claim to be able to tell the difference. I bet you can too, if you think about it.

Additional evidence that socialists have more fun:

News to me.

“If Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.”

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...5_14-17-56.png
What Does Socialism Have to Do with Sex?
By Rebecca Mead
January 16, 2019

... In “Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism: And Other Arguments for Economic Independence,” Kristen R. Ghodsee, who teaches Russian and East European studies at the University of Pennsylvania, seeks to counter this narrative, arguing that for all the crushing repression under a political system like that of the former East Germany, women in those countries enjoyed certain freedoms, both material and existential, that were and remain largely unavailable, or even unimaginable, to women in liberal democracies.

Ghodsee’s title is a memorable one, with its suggestion that under socialism women might all be having as much fun as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez pirouetting on a Boston rooftop. As in the Times Op-Ed from which the book originated, the title refers to the results of studies conducted in Germany from the mid-nineteen-eighties onward, which reported, among other intriguing findings, that eighty per cent of East German women always experienced orgasm during sex, compared to sixty-three per cent of women in West Germany. Ghodsee cites the work of a number of scholars of sexuality, who have addressed these topics in greater depth. But her own point is a larger one. “Unregulated capitalism is bad for women,” she writes. “If we adopt some ideas from socialism, women will have better lives.”...

Full article here

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Who drank the koolaid?

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Ray, I wish you would do me the honor of answering my questions rather than saying "who drank the koolaid?". Don't you think they are good, honest, and very basic questions, rather than the tit-for-tat put-downs that all too often tend to happen on this forum? I have appreciated the more straightforward responses you have given in the past.

Yes, I will answer your questions, several of which came after the koolaid comment.

I respect and take your questions seriously, and am not ignoring them. I am thinking through my responses in the interest of being thoughtful, constructive and as free of knee jerk platitudes and generalizations as possible so we can have a true dialogue, rather than a pissing contest. I do need a bit more time to assemble some background material I have in mind. Life goes on and family, etc. takes time. I am looking forward to genuine communication with you.

Thank you for reaching out. I look forward to a positive, ongoing discussion that has value beyond being right.

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

Ray, I wish you would do me the honor of answering my questions rather than saying "who drank the koolaid?". Don't you think they are good, honest, and very basic questions, rather than the tit-for-tat put-downs that all too often tend to happen on this forum? I have appreciated the more straightforward responses you have given in the past.

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So would the analogous "Republican Voters/Republican Politicians" cartoon show rich people on the left side, and even more stupendously rich people in giant mansions on the other side?

Or would the left side show burning shacks, lynchings, and a Klan rally??

Thank you, Ray.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Yes, I will answer your questions, several of which came after the koolaid comment.

I respect and take your questions seriously, and am not ignoring them. I am thinking through my responses in the interest of being thoughtful, constructive and as free of knee jerk platitudes and generalizations as possible so we can have a true dialogue, rather than a pissing contest. I do need a bit more time to assemble some background material I have in mind. Life goes on and family, etc. takes time. I am looking forward to genuine communication with you.

Thank you for reaching out. I look forward to a positive, ongoing discussion that has value beyond being right.

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That headline could just as well say "Sweden Thrives."

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

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No, it would be just the same!

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

So would the analogous "Republican Voters/Republican Politicians" cartoon show rich people on the left side, and even more stupendously rich people in giant mansions on the other side?

Or would the left side show burning shacks, lynchings, and a Klan rally??

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But that would not be as funny, we share more with Venezuela.

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

That headline could just as well say "Sweden Thrives."

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This article is pure liberal propaganda, the research behind it is an embarrassment to sociology and the author is walking it back big-time. Just think about it, did east German women try to put the bricks back?

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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:

Additional evidence that socialists have more fun:

News to me.

“If Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.”

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...5_14-17-56.png
What Does Socialism Have to Do with Sex?
By Rebecca Mead - January 16, 2019

... In “Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism: And Other Arguments for Economic Independence,” ...
Full article here

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Humor is not about judging, that how you lost yours.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

who said they're unacceptable? I just said they're stupid (to put it politely). Demonize? that's again hyperbole, resonant of the victimization felt by the self-proclaimed winners. We've failed to realize our hoped-for socialist utopia, I think you'd acknowledge.

I'd like to see someone expand the political discourse. Drawings that just present the tropes of the right, especially ones that are the least defensible tropes, are, as I said, annoyingly stupid. Not that I have anything against being annoying.

So for more examples, the one with the Statue of Liberty, pushing the idea that the left is all about 'free stuff', is a preach-to-the-choir Fox talking point. I suppose you could stretch and say that what benefits should be 'free' (access to roads, high school, police services) vs. paid for (colleges, water & power) is a legitimate issue. That's sadly not where the current discussions are going. So I call that one stupid. Strictly academically, I see more legitimacy in the one with the three Democrat geezers talking about the need for youth - or even the unfair one with the cash-filled truck heading south.

Humor may be in the eye of the beholder, but there are some widely-observed standards to judge it. We generally aren't as amused by potty humor as when we were two-year-olds, for example. It'd be nice, since you're trying to expand the range of political humor here, to give us the best, not just the stuff that appeals to the yahoo faction. And yeah, I'm not reluctant to claim to be able to tell the difference. I bet you can too, if you think about it.

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

But that would not be as funny, we share more with Venezuela.

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'as funny' ?? it's not remotely funny, or clever. We share a bunch with both places, but not in any really significant ways. Sweden's more civilized than we are, but more Americans speak Spanish than Swedish. And Sweden's far more socialistic than Venezuela, so in that sense we are more like Venezuela. But our oligarchs have learned the lesson from the farmer with the three-legged pig: "a good pig like that, you don't eat all at once!"
So that's a key difference too.

(rest of pig joke on request...)

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

Humor is not about judging, that how you lost yours.

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'judging' is too simple.Humor isn't some magic ineffable quality. It can be looked at like literature or poetry. That's not 'judging', that's seeking understanding.

It really isn't funny to debate whether dem or pub policy is better for the poor, plenty of evidence on both sides. But to poke fun at American politics from all sides? What's not to laugh at?

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

ok, Ray, you sound reasonable. So how can you post some of the images you do? ...

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I disaggree, humor is a wonderful definition of magic. Of course understanding is part of it. I remember when I was in Mexico city shortly after 9/11. Great place for jokes when I really needed to laugh. Brought them back to the states, no one laughed, but they were really funny!

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

'judging' is too simple.Humor isn't some magic ineffable quality. It can be looked at like literature or poetry. That's not 'judging', that's seeking understanding.

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Would I argue with you who is more socalist, Sweden or Venezuela? Now that is funny!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

...And Sweden's far more socialistic than Venezuela, ...

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Clearly you have no sense of humor, glad you know there is help available.

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Posted in reply to the post by pdfender:

I’m so happy to hear that there are plenty of therapists In Sebastopol. Hope you find yourself a good one.
But good luck. Nothing will change your spiritual bankruptcy.

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Socialism is essentially theft at gunpoint by a self-appointed group of holier-than-thou maladjusted do-gooder tyrantrs who would rather force you to atone for your "crimes against the proletariat" than examine their own insane urge to have power over others. Would YOU pay 90% of what you make to the government if they didn't have more guns than you and threaten you with imprisonment if you don't comply?

How many refugees have you let move into your home? Or would you rather force someone else to have them in their backyard? Why can't America take care of it's own poor before importing illegal immigrants?

Karl Marx said, and I paraphrase, "the purpose of socialism is communism". We all know how that turned out.

Margaret Thatcher said, "Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money." Like they did in Venezuela. Try getting a Big Mac there :-). (I know, gmo non food, but it makes the point)

Over 100 Million people murdered by communist / socialist tyrants in the 20th century. No, that's not a Fox talking point, it's documented fact. Let's try that here...Sweden, Sweden, Sweden...the exception doesn't nullify the rule.

But then we were talking about humor...it's in the eye of the beholder! I should lighten up...

It seems fitting that those advocating socialism would have reasons why humor directed at them is wrong, while humor directed at patriots who defend human freedom is justified.

But I digress...this isn't all serious and heavy, it's under the heading of HUMOR. Look it up and have a nice day.

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

Would I argue with you who is more socalist, Sweden or Venezuela? Now that is funny!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Socialism is essentially theft at gunpoint by a self-appointed group of holier-than-thou maladjusted do-gooder tyrantrs who would rather force you to atone for your "crimes against the proletariat" than examine their own insane urge to have power over others.

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oh, we get to make our own definitions now? How 'bout: "Capitalism is essentially theft at gunpoint by a group of first-to-the-trough thugs who claim by force the proceeds of common goods like water and land?" Somehow I doubt you'd accept that characterization, but it's about as accurate and complete as your definition of socialism.

And the glib mention of "Why can't America take care of it's own poor before importing illegal immigrants?" as if people who call communitarian actions 'socialism' would support any programs for taking care of the poor? Am I being unfair? got some counter-examples for me?

And no-one has said anything about the 'humor' being directed at non-right-wing targets being wrong, just that it's not funny. I gave examples why. The only response I get is some amorphous "you just don't get it, you have no sense of humor". I beg to differ. If you can only say "it's funny 'cuz it's funny", it's probably not funny. It may take the humor out of a joke to explain it, but that doesn't mean the explanation was wrong.

RE "Over 100 Million people murdered by communist / socialist tyrants in the 20th century."
Um, as I understand it, Fascists, Nazis, and their cohorts in other conflicts had a pretty good run in the 20th Century as well. And they're still at it in this century.

And, Ray, "patriots who defend human freedom" depends on your point of view, doesn't it? "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson

IMO, people who make it into that 90% tax bracket have more wealth than anyone on the planet would ever need in order to live comfortably. In accumulating it, they have deprived not only the planet of a huge chunk of its resources (thereby bringing us to the not-so-pretty pass we're currently in environmentally), they have done so on the backs of and by exploiting the labor of the rest of humanity. Talk about "insane, maladjusted" people.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Socialism is essentially theft at gunpoint by a self-appointed group ...

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Ooooh, touchy, touchy!

Probably the main reason East German women didn't put the bricks back is that they are busily enjoying their new-found freedoms.

Interesting, though, that you would conflate building walls with sexual satisfaction. Sounds suspiciously familiar. :-)

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

This article is pure liberal propaganda, the research behind it is an embarrassment to sociology and the author is walking it back big-time. Just think about it, did east German women try to put the bricks back?

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In the interests of laying to rest (hopefully here, anyway) some of the Right Wing's favorite tropes about immigration, here is a recent article from The North Bay Bohemian called "Border Myths."

https://www.bohemian.com/northbay/bo...nt?oid=8031285

IMO Political cartoons are funniest when they poke fun at actual situations by offering a new or unexpected perspective on them. Promulgating lies and fabrications, which I see frequently in "cartoons" from the Right, just doesn't fall under the category of humor to me. More like propaganda/disinformation.

Thank you for that Bohemian article, Wisewomn. In regard to the discussion with our right wing friend Ray, I would point out that virtually none of us really knows directly the truth about any of this. All we know is what we read or see or hear on whatever media we absorb. If Ray, myself, or anyone else wants to dispute information or putative facts about anything--especially anything as remote from our direct personal experience as what's happening in Latin America--they need to hold their points of view with a certain epistemological humility.

If Ray disagrees with the purported facts presented in that Bohemian article, I think he needs to present his own facts and tell us how he knows them. I'm still waiting for him to tell us, for example, how he knows that the huge number of Americans killed by illegal aliens, as symbolized by the gush of blood pouring through the back door in that Pelosi/Schumer cartoon, is a true fact, as opposed to the putative fact I have heard that the number is not only very small, but less in proportion to the murder rate among US citizens.

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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:

... The North Bay Bohemian called "Border Myths."
https://www.bohemian.com/northbay/bo...nt?oid=8031285...

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But couldn't you substitute the word "Capitalism" for "Socialism" in that first paragraph and have it ring just as true? I guess we'd also have to change "do-gooder tyrants" to "greed-crazed tyrants," and "crimes against the proletariat" to "proletarian inferiority."

If paying 90% of my income to a humanisticaly oriented government still left me with many millions of dollars in my bank account, I would be delighted! That's because I care about the poor and don't feel good about "eating cake" while they starve. And I believe there are other compassionate Zillionaires out there that feel the same.

If, on the other hand, a huge percentage of my tax money were going to support war and world domination, I would feel terrible.

As for letting refugees move into my home, I was seriously considering that as an emergency measure for refugees of the great fire in Santa Rosa. But in reality it's never been a question of letting refugees move into our homes. Refugees find their own homes or, frequently, move in with relatives who are already here.

I absolutely agree with your question: "Why can't America take care of its own poor?" But I must point out that left-wingers tend to have much more compassion for the poor than right-wingers. That huge tax break for the rich recently forced into law by the Republican majority in both houses of Congress is an excellent case in point!

Yes, tyrannical regimes waving the banner of "Communism" have been horrible--yet another example of how an originally humanistic social philosophy gets perverted into its opposite by vicious, power-crazed psychopaths. Much like Christianity, don't you think? But "socialists?!" How many citizens have been murdered by the more or less socialistic governments of Sweden, Norway, Finland, and at least in recent history, Britain, Ireland, France, and Germany? Not to forget Canada! Is blood virtually pouring through their doors? Are their citizens champing at the bit to abolish their National Health Services? Really, in regard to the Western democracys, isn't the US the major holdout?

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Socialism is essentially theft at gunpoint by ...

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Are you saying that the Far Left Cartoons usually seen on this board don't promulgate exaggerations, fabrications, distortions and lies?

We could deconstruct each lie, implication, hateful viewpoint, etc. of each other's points of view as expressed in these cartoons,,,but I'd rather just laugh, which is the point of these cartoons...

HUMOR. Just sayin', people get a bit sensitive when their sacred cows, no, I'm not referring to Pelosi, are bludgeoned.

What? It's ok to trash Trump, but not Pelosi? It's ok to show Trump supporters as idiots but not ok to portray illegal immigrants as people wanting "free stuff"?

Also, the Bohemian is hardly an impartial source. They are predominantly far left and, because of the paradigm effect, they only see the things that support their preconceived ideas and reject the rest.

That said, I thought the article was very well written.

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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:

...IMO Political cartoons are funniest when they poke fun at actual situations by offering a new or unexpected perspective on them. Promulgating lies and fabrications, which I see frequently in "cartoons" from the Right, just doesn't fall under the category of humor to me. More like propaganda/disinformation.

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The greatest enemy of socialism is Reality.

The reality is that human nature will pull certain people toward individualism and success, and others toward laziness and collectivism. The tension between the Makers and the Takers ALWAYS leads to socialism's ultimate collapse.

Is socialism more morally altruistic than the evil, greedy capitalist warmongering seen in the west?

GREED? What's more greedy than to take something from someone else something that you haven't earned?

Capitalism takes place through voluntary transaction. Socialism can only occur at gunpoint.

You either pay taxes to the government, or they send in scary people with guns to take you away.

As long as the people having their stuff taken away are in the minority, and the majority feel they will get to benefit from more taken stuff, you'll always be able to win that decision by a popular vote and claim the moral high ground.

As for Sweden, it is a complex picture, not just "socialism works there" simple solution for simple minds. The real story is the exact opposite of a "socialist success story".

The real story is that they cut big government, just like Trump has, because it stifles economic growth.

They also cut government spending, through an austerity plan. Sweden's debt was cut from 73% of GDP in 1996 to 37% in 2011. In the US, BOTH parties have increased spending and debt exponentially during that period.

Sweden also reduced it's subsidies for medical and dental care. In 2011 Obamacare called for a whole new class of subsidies. Not apples and apples.

Sweden does have high taxes, but they tax EVERYONE, not just the rich. They have an essentially flat tax rate. We have a system that taxes the rich at much higher rates. If we want to imitate Sweden's system we need to tax the middle and lower classes MORE.

In 1994, Sweden began implementing the following measures designed to reverse this trend:

• Reduce Regulation
• Reduce Government Spending
• Reform their Welfare Programs
• Shrink their Government

Redistribution of wealth is accomplished by taxation of EVERYONE, not just the rich.

Personal income is taxed at a rate of 61.85 percent, plus a 7 percent social security tax rate for employees. On top of these taxes, Sweden also has a 25 percent consumption tax. For these sacrifices of financial freedom, this is what Sweden offers their citizens in benefits:

• Pension
• Health care
• Unemployment Insurance
• Education through Ph.D. Level
• Child Day Care
• Very generous leaves of absence from work with benefits including: education up to 6 months, starting your own company up to 6 months off, parental leave up to 16 months with 80 percent of your pay during time off
• 16 public holidays (10 of these holidays are Christian-based, even though just five percent of the population are regular church attendees).

Proponents of socialism mostly want to tax "other people", not themselves. Fanning resentment of the rich is a manipulative tool used to enforce mob rule bullying of those who have earned more money, mostly through providing more service to more people than the poor.

True, there are those who have gained their riches through dishonest means, but they are mainly politicians. How did Nancy Pelosi achieve a 120 million net worth on a Congressperson's salary?

Most of the "rich" people I know have worked hard, sacrificed leisure and delayed gratification for many years to get to where they are. Is it "fair" to take more of their earnings and give them to others who have not produced or sacrificed?

If you want to hold Sweden up as a model of "socialism works" you need to look at the whole picture and ask yourself is you, yourself, are willing to pay that level of taxes.

Namaste'

P.S. the Nazi's were the National SOCIALIST Party, remember?...they started with the same rhetoric we're hearing today in this country about resenting the rich, social justice, etc..

Then when they got power, they executed the useful idiots who supported them, and anyone else who they believed posed a threat to their power.

Just the way the Establishment Corporate Democrat Mainstream Media-Hollywood complex is attacking Trump, who isn't engaged in foreign conquest, but in restoring the damage done to America by all the Globalist puppet presidents starting with Bush #1 through Obama.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

P.S. the Nazi's were the National SOCIALIST Party, remember?...they started with the same rhetoric we're hearing today in this country about resenting the rich, social justice, etc..

Then when they got power, they executed the useful idiots who supported them, and anyone else who they believed posed a threat to their power.

Just the way the Establishment Corporate Democrat Mainstream Media-Hollywood complex is attacking Trump, who isn't engaged in foreign conquest, but in restoring the damage done to America by all the Globalist puppet presidents starting with Bush #1 through Obama.

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yeah, it's "just the way". I hardly see a difference.

There are a few huge flaws in where your logic takes you. You make zero accommodation for the way 'society' (not coincidentally, the root of the term "socialism") co-operates for the common good. We're prairie dogs, not badgers.

You also accept the concept of 'earned' way too easily. Wealth is accumulated in lots of ways, and few of them really reflect any moral value -- and the right-wing concept of 'earned' is steeped in moralism. Work is seen as a moral value, and there's a naive conflation of accumulating money with work. Any casual analysis can see that's not remotely true. The idea gets tortured to explain that somehow Trump and Zuckerberg are really working hard, they're morally superior and deserving of what they 'earn' because, uh, they're smarter? better? deserving of inherited wealth? Somehow dealing with this economic distortion is labeled 'theft'. That's about as well reasoned as is using home economics as a model for how a nation deals with its economy. But the right falls into that fallacy too -- think how often deficit spending is seen as equivalent to accumulating credit-card debt.

The reality is that we do mostly share our moral values, but for many, they don't have this fetishization of independence and self-reliance. It's a sick fetish for several reasons: first, it's not really lived by the people ho hold the fetish most. It's easily seen that those living in red states, with lots of government support, either still believe they're totally self reliant, or feel inadequate because they're getting some community support. "Keep your government hands off my medicare!" is the cry from that group.

The earth's wealth was there before us, and those who monopolized it early have little moral claim to depriving their fellow citizens from accessing it. Sure, those who've developed it and made it more valuable deserve an extra sip off the top, but they often act Aesop's dog in the manger, denying others the benefit of it mostly because they just can. My favorite foil, Zuckerberg, stumbled into an area that someone in my field was going to stumble into anyway, but there's a huge advantage in being first. And he's lucky enough to get the volume multiplier. Ford had to acquire materials, build plants, hire people, and get a sizeable amount of money from his customers. Zuck has something that scales to zillions of people for free, doesn't take many people to produce, and takes so little from each person that most of the earth's population can pay him a bit. A kindergarten teacher has less than a couple of dozen kids, few if any of whom have any wealth of their own. So her earnings pale to his, or Henry's. Maybe that's fair, but to the multiple that it is??


The other weird thing about the right is how uncritical of these memes they get from Fox they are. Almost any libtard knows that the Euro states tax everyone heavily, and also support free market businesses. They know that's part of the picture when they point at the benefits such countries offer their citizens. They also know it's not an unbridled success story, and that government health care, (for one example), has its ups and downs and takes constant tweaking.

But damn, the right just tosses out one hyperbolic critique and then walks away from the problem. 'Crisis at the border'? 'moochers getting free stuff'? even 'medicare for all costs too much'? So that means we ignore the human suffering that drives the immigrants, the fate of poor children and families (and yeah, even winos and psychos), and the one that bugs me the most, the health care needs of other humans in our own cities that can't be met? The Republicans have never made solving any of those problems a priority in any way that was noticed by the people suffering from them. Sure, trickle-up might do it, somehow if all the money goes to those at the top they may act like Gates or Buffet and share it. But I haven't seen it yet.

So yeah, Ray, that's why so many in this county find the selfish and uncaring policies of Trump and the rest of the Republicans, really for the last century with few exceptions, kind of abhorrent.

Man, one of the longest wacco posts EVER I bet!

Nice post. For contrast, this may be one of the shortest wacco posts :-)

Glad you've decided the proper way for the whole of humanity to conduct itself.

Meanwhile, in Mexico;

In case you are not following real news,

Federal prosecutors, while cross examining the witness and relatives of El Chapo, uncovered that the recent past President of Mexico, Enrique Pena Nieto, took over $100 million in bribes from the cartel.

He is now naming names of US Politicians who were also taking bribes, and immediately the Feds are trying to seal the testimony from the public.

I wonder which American politicians were/are taking bribes from the cartel?

Could it be the same ones fighting to not have a border wall?

How do so many of them become multi millionaires on their senate and congressional salaries?

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Nice post. For contrast, this may be one of the shortest wacco posts :-)
Glad you've decided the proper way for the whole of humanity to conduct itself.

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so what conduct do I recommend that you disagree with?? and exactly what conduct do I recommend, anyway? I didn't see that part of my own post, I guess.

You've yet to directly respond to anything any of the other posters have said; you've just offered more generalities. There are several specific things from several of us. For example, I've explained why some of the cartoons you've posted don't work - wanna tell me why I'm wrong on any of them?

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

I wonder which American politicians were/are taking bribes from the cartel?

Could it be the same ones fighting to not have a border wall?

How do so many of them become multi millionaires on their senate and congressional salaries?

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uh, maybe? If they're not, if instead it's the usual suspects on the Repub side, do you have some inference to draw about them? If you show me any corrupt dems, I'll be happy to condemn them too. How 'bout (yea, whattaboutism..) the private prison industry and border guards union? Does that have any Trumpy connection? and just as important, would any Foxy people care?? Us libtards would care a lot to find out which of our socialist representatives actually are supporting cartels.

Ray, instead of generalizations, please give some specific examples of Far Left Cartoons on this board that present fabrications, distortions and lies. As for exaggerations, well of course!

Also, what do you think is factually incorrect about that Bohemian article?

And please respond to the questions I have raised in my posts! I have probably wasted too much of my precious time typing these questions, but it has all been in the hope of getting some real communication with you. At least you dealt with Sweden, and I thank you!

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Are you saying that the Far Left Cartoons usually seen on this board don't promulgate exaggerations, fabrications, distortions and lies?...

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This cant about illegal immigrants to the US wanting "free stuff" drives me crazy! It ignores the terrible persecution at the hands of armed gangs, the ineffective and even malign governments, the hopeless poverty, and the suffering endured by malnourished men, women, and children as they plod so many hundreds of miles to get to our supposed bastion of freedom and compassion, only to get clobbered on the border by our wall of governmental inhumanity!

When my maternal grandparents came here on the boat from their poor and beleaguered Jewish stedel in Russia, desperately seeking a better life for themselves and their children, they were uplifted by the welcoming sight of our Statue Of Liberty. "Give us your poor, forgotten, etc..." Remember that? They worked hard, mastered broken English, and ended up putting their three sons through college. (Although their three daughters--including my mother--had to raise their own tuition!)

Maybe we should replace the Statue Of Liberty with the statue of an armed guard saying "Get the hell out of here if you're not white, European, Christian, and fairly rich!"

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

This cant about illegal immigrants to the US wanting "free stuff" drives me crazy!

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me too. But I don't see it applied just to immigrants. You're right, though, I do hear "if I was illegal I'd get free healthcare/food/childcare" as if being illegal was an advantage.

But in general, I hear them express concern that undeserving people of all types want free stuff - college education, etc. I think it's tied up in the over-emphasis on self-reliance people have, and their weird identification of self-worth with control of money. Personally, I'd be happier if I never handled money again in my life. Lots of the best things in life don't come about as result of a cash transaction. But some people don't value things if they don't pay for them, and value them more if they pay more. I see it, and kind of get it, even if it seems kind of lizard-brain primitive to me.

This fixation on money hurts their thinking in lots of ways -- it makes people identify with really rich people who in fact have no relationship to money in the way their admirers do. They don't spend it on things, they control things with their wealth. But somehow a lot of people think these uber-wealthy share their world view, regardless of evidence to the contrary. I don't think many of them have ever had any contact with that world. (and yes, I've had enough for at least a slightly educated opinion...)

The best sex in former east Germany was probably right after the wall came down. All that pent up energy released!

Then the grinding reality of capitalism as the country reunited, having to pay for everything. Perhaps the authors premise that the golden age of east german women's sexual satisfaction was in the socialist construction of gender equality is influenced by the heady days of liberation?

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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:

...Probably the main reason East German women didn't put the bricks back is that they are busily enjoying their new-found freedoms....

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Yes I agree, this whole discussion of political humor has gotten way too serious. I find politics in the us fundamentally funny, because there is virtual consensus between the two parties yet they pretend difference. I find this kind of hypocrisy hilarious. And then we elect a funny looking, crass talking showman clown as leader! Who says the same bs, yet politic followers think it's different!

Please don't understand me as cynical. I love both people and our politics and find it all endlessly facinating and entertaining.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

...But then we were talking about humor...it's in the eye of the beholder! I should lighten up...

It seems fitting that those advocating socialism would have reasons why humor directed at them is wrong, while humor directed at patriots who defend human freedom is justified.

But I digress...this isn't all serious and heavy, it's under the heading of HUMOR. Look it up and have a nice day.

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The point, podfish, is that your explanation of a joke denies your sense of humor of it, because it is so judgemental. For example the trump pelosi stare down joke. Easy to diss as misogynistic, but... does Nancy do botox? Never occurred to me before and it sure looks like it. And she deserved the ribbing for her lame moral high ground stance, she is an accomplished pol, a true sausage grinder. And trump, although of course the funnier looking of the two, deserved credit for sticking to his signature issue, whatever you or I think of it. You're a smart guy, why not use some of your subtlety to laugh?

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

...And no-one has said anything about the 'humor' being directed at non-right-wing targets being wrong, just that it's not funny. I gave examples why. The only response I get is some amorphous "you just don't get it, you have no sense of humor". I beg to differ. If you can only say "it's funny 'cuz it's funny", it's probably not funny. It may take the humor out of a joke to explain it, but that doesn't mean the explanation was wrong.

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

The point, podfish, is that your explanation of a joke denies your sense of humor of it, because it is so judgemental. ...

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no, that's not the point to draw from the post.

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...1_12-50-27.png

Think of beer. Sure, I suppose I could enjoy a cold Coors -- but it's not really beer. There's a lot of good beer out there and it's easy to explain why Coors doesn't qualify. Doesn't mean some people don't enjoy Coors and dislike real beer but it also doesn't mean I have to concede that it's just a matter of taste.
.. and knowing why Pliny is good beer doesn't detract from enjoying it (assuming I get to try some someday!)

I take your point, rossmen. People can get caught up in the struggle to be RIGHT. At the same time, the issues we are debating are truly matters of life and death. I daresay we waccovians, while we may or may not be prosperous by middle class American standards, are rich as Croesus compared to the people all over the world and even in our own country who are being clobbered by desperate poverty! I realize that you are well aware of this. So the arguments between Leftists and Rightists has tremendous real world implications.

I think what we are hearing from Ray and other right-wingers boils down to a belief that in general people who make a lot of money really deserve it because they are smarter and work harder for it, and they resent having so much of it taken away--basically stolen--by Big Daddy and given to lower class people who are just too lazy and inferior to earn their own keep. Their conception of socialism is using Big Government to rob the successful, superior people, to transfer their wealth to the masses of inferior failures.

This attitude, of course, overlooks the fact that the vast majority of people work very hard, every day, at jobs like office work, teaching, manufacturing, nursing, street cleaning, etc, etc, etc. And given the out of control rising costs of housing, childcare, etc, many of these workers are struggling to make ends meet. At the same time, many other people are making vast incomes through investment, successful businesses, high-end professional work, and--like Donald Trump--inherited wealth combined with ruthless and shady dealing.

I thank Ray for studying up and giving his analysis of the Swedish governmental system. Even with all the problems he enumerates, I have to say that for all the benefits that Swedes accrue through their high taxes it sounds to me like a pretty good deal!

And I think that the ultimate question Ray needs to tackle is: do the citizens of Sweden, and all the other countries that have a democratic socialist government, wish they could trade in their system for ours?

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

Yes I agree, this whole discussion of political humor has gotten way too serious. I find politics in the us fundamentally funny, because there is virtual consensus between the two parties yet they pretend difference. I find this kind of hypocrisy hilarious. And then we elect a funny looking, crass talking showman clown as leader! Who says the same bs, yet politic followers think it's different!

Please don't understand me as cynical. I love both people and our politics and find it all endlessly facinating and entertaining.

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I'm sorry, rossmen, I appreciate your posts, but putting a woman or anyone down for worrying about their looks is just too much for me.

As for Pelosi's "lame moral high ground stance," whatever the deficits of the Democratic Party, I say at this point we're damn lucky to have such an "accomplished pol, a true sausage grinder" back in power!

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

The point, podfish, is that your explanation of a joke denies your sense of humor of it, because it is so judgemental. For example the trump pelosi stare down joke. Easy to diss as misogynistic, but... does Nancy do botox? Never occurred to me before and it sure looks like it. And she deserved the ribbing for her lame moral high ground stance, she is an accomplished pol, a true sausage grinder. And trump, although of course the funnier looking of the two, deserved credit for sticking to his signature issue, whatever you or I think of it. You're a smart guy, why not use some of your subtlety to laugh?

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Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

...but putting a woman or anyone down for worrying about their looks is just too much for me.....

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To be fair... and to speak more about "looks" more than "worrying about their looks"... I/we make fun of Trump's looks all the time... orangeness, hair, weight, small hands, pursed lips, long tie, etc.... so by the same token, I wouldn't disqualify comments/cartoons that reference Nancy's looks as any more inappropriate.

I actually thought the botox cartoon was pretty funny, regardless if she has used botox or not... just that it juxtaposed the two notions of "blinking".

Ray, I know I'm not the only one who would appreciate it if you would provide links to the sources of your statements, here and elsewhere. Thanks.

Interesting you ask me for sources and not the extreme left assertions that fill this dialogue.

Are you sincerely interested in exploring an alternative viewpoint, or attempting to find rebuttal talking points?

This is a real question, not snark ;-)

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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:

Ray, I know I'm not the only one who would appreciate it if you would provide links to the sources of your statements, here and elsewhere. Thanks.

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Also, my request is that you speak for yourself only and let "others" speak for themselves.

Asserting that there are 'others' or 'many' when you make a request is disingenuous and could be seen as your own lack of confidence in making a direct request for yourself and instead attempting to hide in the "crowd".

Unfortunately, the written word leaves room for the reader to imply the emotion behind the written statement. I am asking this of you in a calm, peaceful, open emotional tone, not in anger, arrogance or disdain. Really

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Also, my request is that you speak for yourself only and let "others" speak for themselves.

Asserting that there are 'others' or 'many' when you make a request is disingenuous and could be seen as your own lack of confidence in making a direct request for yourself and instead attempting to hide in the "crowd".

Unfortunately, the written word leaves room for the reader to imply the emotion behind the written statement. I am asking this of you in a calm, peaceful, open emotional tone, not in anger, arrogance or disdain. Really

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well, maybe a little arrogance and disdain, though I'm sure you don't mean to feel that way. Your indirect psychoanalysis, that she's got a lack of confidence, shows that. Oh, I'm sorry - "could be seen as" by some imaginary others. You know, "people say...". Where else have I seen that pattern recently?

I think she's on safe ground when she says 'others'. I'll cop to being one. You're also still deflecting the request from at least three of us (maybe where she gets the idea that there are 'others'). You put out Fox memes, like the unsubstantiated hints that there are payoffs being hidden, with zero interest in exploring their credibility. Notice that all you've gotten from the lefties here are requests for more detail. You haven't bothered to go there, except with some pre-emptive refutation in case any of us believed that Sweden was a socialist paradise - a position that no-one holds. Even if all we want are talking points to rebut, so?? if they're valid, maybe we can't rebut them so easily.

I'm interested in knowing the sources of your information, Ray. Believe it or not, I do have acquaintances of your political persuasion and they are hard-pressed to provide legitimate (oh, I know you're going to pounce on that word!) sources for their statements. Rebuttal has nothing to do with it but credibility does. I have even found common ground with them a few times.

Frankly, Breitbart News and The National Enquirer and others of that ilk don't qualify as legitimate sources of information, IMO. Too much of their stuff is either made up or incomplete.
I doubt that there's is anything you could tell me that I haven't already heard and discussed with them.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Interesting you ask me for sources and not the extreme left assertions that fill this dialogue....

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I used the word "others" because, as you well know but have chosen to ignore, others here have asked you for elaborations and references and you have steadfastly refused to supply them. You have also provided extensive quotes without attributing their sources.

What you seem to be doing here is making this personal (my "lack of confidence," "hide in the crowd," etc. ), a common tactic when one has nothing more to offer that is relevant to the discussion.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I wrote this myself with no help from anyone.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

Also, my request is that you speak for yourself only and let "others" speak for themselves....

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The main question I asked was why do you not challenge the sources for the far left versions of reality and then challenge mine. I am "whacking the hive" in the hopes that people will question their assumptions and consider alternative viewpoints.

Also, you make assumptions about my political persuasion. I am not a democrat or republican, liberal or conservative. I am an independent thinker who looks at issues from many angles and draws my own conclusions. You seem to be saying, "some of my best friends are not far left liberals..." :-)

To summarily dismiss any source of information that does not align with your preconceived beliefs is to participate in your own brainwashing by a powerful establishment media machine that does not have your best interest in mind. They have the preservation of their own power in mind.

How do you think Diane Feinstein's husband's company got their contract for the Smart Train? How did they get the Billion dollar contract for the california train to nowhere? Didn't read bout it in the Chronicle, so it's not true?

How about Nancy Pelosi and her son's involvement in the fraudulent environmental study that allowed housing to be built on the toxic waste rich Hunter's Point shipyard in San Francisco? The Bohemian didn't cover that? curious...must be right wing propaganda. That information was published by an African American neighborhood newspaper in the City and immediately buried by the local and national, democrat owned media.

Where do you get your news that lets you be so certain about your beliefs? It's called FAKE NEWS because it omits 90% of the story that doesn't fit the narrative being pushed. The main criterion these days for a "credible" story is does it make Trump look bad. Anything that doesn't parrot that theme simply gets ignored and remains unpublished.

Interesting that you do not list your sources of information while asking for mine. Is something "credible" because you hear it on msnbc, or read it in the New Yorker, or the NYT?

Your closing comment doesn't convince me that any effort to site sources would make much difference...after all, you've heard it all before, right?

While I'm being intellectually aggressive, I in no way disrespect you as a person or mean to demean your humanity. In fact, I respect each individual's right to believe as they will. Probably, if we met at a party (like maybe the wacco picnic), and didn't discuss these issues we would most likely enjoy each other's company.

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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:

I'm interested in knowing the sources of your information, Ray. ...

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There you go again, Ray: distract, dodge, and divert. Is that what "intellectual aggression" is? Not unlike Trump with his tax returns, etc.
I'm not challenging your sources because you haven't provided any.
I make no assumptions about your political persuasion. In fact as you describe yourself, it jibes perfectly with the people I know, which is why we agree on some points. You are making assumptions about my political persuasion, aren't you?
I don't need to ask for sources for other opinions provided on this site because they are either provided or I've seen them elsewhere.

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Posted in reply to the post by ray50sfo:

The main question I asked was why do you not challenge the sources for the far left versions of reality and then challenge mine. ...

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So why do Swedish men move to America? (I actually know three here in sonoma county) Because they fell in love with American women...

Yes the truth is often funnier than jokes.

Imagine if pelosi had blinked, hard to do because it wasn't much of a contest. We would have almost the same federal budget as we will have, maybe a few billion more for the boarder, weeks, probably months sooner! But with so much less drama, what fun would that be?

Debating us policy is more about death than life, we are the number 1 killing machine since like Hiroshima.

I like to think that I don't care about money and aspire to be poor, ever since I dropped out of berkeley and lived as a hermit learning to be happy sleeping on rocks and eating weeds. Then i fell in love, kids came, very expensive, needed money, still helping raise 7th and 8th with third woman 40 yrs later and I'm rich by any reasonable standard. Sure I work hard but really I'm incredibly lucky, wood knock.

I find one of the most interesting national comparisons to be between Sweden and Norway. According to one of my Swedish friends, Sweden gave Norway it's independance, since I don't know the history, the way I understand this is through an old Swedish movie I saw a long time ago about a Norwegian farmer. The character was sweet, clueless, doltish. The energy with which he said it I ascribe to the discovery of north sea oil, which funds a wonderful county, top of every list, with services close to star trek level.