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How CVS Conned Sebastopol
How CVS Conned Sebastopol
by John Eder, former Sebastopol City Council Member
Part 1 of 5
I served on the Sebastopol City Council from 2012 to 2016, during the period when many of the events described in this account took place. I have attempted to present this information in the most accurate, complete and factual manner possible.
Background
Longs Drugs was founded in Oakland in 1938. After growing to 521 stores, they were acquired by CVS in 2008. Longs had a store in the Redwood Marketplace in Sebastopol for many years prior to their acquisition. The store is owned separately from the remainder of the shopping center. CVS independently owned the store at this location, and has most likely either sold or leased it at this point.
Business Model Differences
Most of Longs Drugs locations were in shopping centers or downtown business districts, averaging around 30,000 square feet, and did not include drive through windows. CVS, on the other hand, has concentrated on creating new locations at heavily-travelled, high traffic count intersections, averaging around 15,000 square feet, with drive through windows being a standard feature. As a result, CVS is in the process of relocating as many of these shopping center stores as they can to busy corners, most being equipped with drive through windows.
As a sidebar, the largest competitor that CVS faces nationally is Walgreens. They have been battling it out with each other through the construction of new stores at high-visibility locations, often across the street or close by to one another. Currently, Walgreens is in the process of seeking approval to merge with Rite Aid, who has an existing store two blocks from the new CVS store in downtown Sebastopol. Thus, our downtown may be the next battleground for these warring corporations.
CVS Comes to Sebastopol
In early 2010, Armstrong Development (on behalf of CVS) submitted an application to the City of Sebastopol to develop a project consisting of a CVS drugstore (17,000 sq. ft.) and a Chase bank (3,800 sq. ft.) on the former two and a half acre Pellini Chevrolet site, which had been dormant since the end of 2008. The first proposal was stunning in its inappropriateness for Sebastopol. It was a generic, “as-seen-anywhere” suburban strip mall eyesore.
Only 15% of the site was designated for buildings, with the balance paved over for parking, far in excess of City requirements (this is still the case). In a nod to our expressed concern over concealing parking areas, the CVS store was oriented so that the parking was behind it, with blank stucco walls and the drive through window facing Screamin’ Mimi’s. It was apparent that the applicant had likely never spent much (if any) time here, getting a sense of our town. To the credit of the City, CVS was essentially told, “Nice try- come back with an acceptable proposal.”
Government Process 101
In my opinion, Sebastopol has a really disjointed process for project approval. The Planning Commission looks at projects from a land use perspective, separately and, sometimes, prior to, the Design Review Board, which looks at projects from a design/aesthetics point of view. Rarely are the two merged. The Planning Commission has been asked to approve a project without the ability to see what it will look like.
This occurred with the CVS project. I was at the Sebastopol Planning Commission meeting in May, 2011 (as a member of the public) when Commissioner Clare Najarian stated, “How am I supposed to approve a project that I have no idea what it even looks like?” A majority of her colleagues agreed, voting 4-2 for denial (the votes to approve coming from Commissioners Colin Doyle and Robert Green, the husband of then-Councilmember Kathleen Shaffer, a staunch advocate for the CVS project) of the Initial Study (IS) and Mitigated Negative Declaration (MND) prepared by City staff for this project (an IS and MND are the basic documents required under CEQA (California Environmental Quality Act), a state law). They are the easiest route to satisfying the requirements of CEQA for project approval; otherwise, an Environmental Impact Report (EIR), a potentially complex and expensive document, is required. Unfortunately, in the absence of direction from City staff at this meeting, the Planning Commissioners failed to develop adequate “findings” to legally support their denial. This floundering would come back to haunt the then-Sebastopol City Council.
Having abandoned their initial “Anytown, USA” generic building design, Armstrong Development hired a local architect, Kevin Kellogg, to produce a custom design for Sebastopol, in an attempt to give the project a “West County” vibe, with actual glass display windows and doors that faced our public streets. Oftentimes, the project seemed to be going backwards with each successive revision. Ultimately, the Sebastopol Design Review Board (DRB), after several meetings, denied the project due to design issues and lack of compliance with Sebastopol’s Design Review Guidelines. It was felt by them to be too modern and overbearing in its presence, and incompatible with our downtown core.
A Religious Calling
My initial interest in this project was piqued by the appearance of a notice from the California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control in a window at the defunct Pellini dealership, indicating that an application had been filed to sell alcoholic beverages on the site. I immediately started to closely monitor the proposed CVS project as a citizen. It was never my intent to stop this project- my goal was to help realize a better result.
I attended every meeting and provided the developer (and City) with numerous photos of highly successful and inviting multi-story mixed use developments (some, ironically, containing CVS drug stores…), often with a vintage appearance, as inspiration to create a place Sebastopol could be proud of. An assortment of retail spaces, residential units and service providers that successfully integrated visually with our town, while expanding our economic base- a walkable place where you could comfortably meet your friends, shop and hang out.
I advocated for a more efficient and intense use of the precious downtown land being consumed by this project. A higher return on the developer’s investment. A really cool place that just happened to contain a CVS drug store and a Chase bank, both as components, not as the centers of attention. All of these efforts fell on deaf ears. When it became obvious that the developers had no interest in intensifying the project, I turned my attention to attempting to improve the design of the buildings. The current building design reflects, in part, that effort.
Tomorrow, Part 2 starts with 'CVS Pushes Back'
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Thanks, John, for the beginning of communicating the history. Long's was so much better than CVS. I look forward to your other 4 parts.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
How CVS Conned Sebastopol
by John Eder, former Sebastopol City Council Member
Part 2 of 5
(See Part 1 here)
CVS Pushes Back
CVS likes to construct stores that conform to their standard designs as often as they can get away with, especially in towns with “lazy” or grateful, welcoming city governments. As a result, the resistance encountered in Sebastopol was pushing them way out of their “comfort zone”. The Armstrong representatives acted as if we were presenting the most outlandish requirements that they had ever heard. Their higher-ups were shocked that we were so demanding. They were polite, superficially compliant, but, most of all, slick. In the face of the continued rejection of their custom-commissioned “West County” design by a majority of the Design Review Board, Armstrong Development brought in higher management officials to threaten the DRB in a “good cop/bad cop” scheme, hoping that they would eventually capitulate. The Design Review Board remained resolute in its judgment.
Appeal Of Planning Commission Denial
Armstrong Development filed an appeal on behalf of CVS with the City Council to overturn the Planning Commission’s denial of the project. After determining that the Planning Commission had failed to develop adequate findings to support their denial (due to the lack of staff direction to do so), on July 5, 2011, the then-City Council voted 4-1 to uphold the appeal and approve the City staff-produced Mitigated Negative Declaration (MND) for the project, thereby clearing the way for it to proceed. Former Mayor Guy Wilson, Councilmembers Kathleen Shaffer, Michael Kyes and current Vice Mayor Patrick Slayter cast “Yes” votes. Current Councilmember Sarah Glade Gurney was the sole “No” vote. The late Michael Kyes eventually confided in me that he regretted his vote on this matter. Ironically, Patrick Slayter went on to later make the motion to approve a moratorium on new drive through facilities in Sebastopol, thereby triggering a costly lawsuit brought against Sebastopol by CVS. He also participated in and supported all aspects of the City’s defense efforts against the lawsuit.
The MND
To insure that a project is approved, a Mitigated Negative Declaration (based upon the Initial Study) can be written to conclude that a project either has “No Significant Impacts” or that all identified impacts can be successfully mitigated. If “Significant Impacts” are found and cannot be mitigated, then the project is either dead or on hold until an EIR is produced, and even then, approval is not assured. The conclusion of the MND prepared by City staff for this project was that all impacts noted could be mitigated- essentially, there would be no detectable difference between a dormant Chevrolet dealership and an operating CVS/Chase Bank.
After receiving the “green light” to proceed from the then-City Council, the weirdest thing happened- Armstrong/CVS went silent. It was a mystery as to why they didn’t aggressively pursue completion of the approval process. In this period, Armstrong had the primary approval required to move forward, and could have easily done so, getting everything that they wanted, including both of their coveted drive through windows. Instead, the now-fenced property went into a protracted period of decline, creating a massive eyesore in our downtown.
During the public comment period for the MND, a number of citizens, including me, had submitted, in writing, what we perceived to be obvious flaws in the City staff-prepared MND for this project. All of these concerns were essentially ignored by the City-seen as non-existent, not significant and/or easily mitigated.
The truly sad irony here is that it was eventually determined, after the appeal period had lapsed, and unbeknownst to the public, that the City’s MND contained a significant flaw, rendering it illegal. The approval tendered by the then-Sebastopol City Council for CVS, based on the City-prepared MND, was actually invalid and there was nothing that the City could do to remedy it at the point the problem was recognized.
Small Town Sebastopol (STS) Lawsuit
On August 8, 2011, a group of local citizens, the Committee for Small Town Sebastopol, filed a CEQA lawsuit against both the City of Sebastopol and CVS/Armstrong Development. Their suit contended that the traffic study performed for the project (upon which the recently-approved MND was partially based) was both flawed and inadequate, and that a full Environmental Impact Report (EIR), including an expanded traffic study, should be required by the City. They believed that an EIR would conclude that the project had impacts that were not capable of being mitigated, and, thus, should be denied by the City. It should be noted that the setting of a date for the hearing of this suit was delayed by CVS numerous times, ultimately ending in a CVS-requested settlement agreement.
Sebastopol eventually found itself as co-defendant with CVS in the STS lawsuit while simultaneously defending itself against the lawsuit brought by CVS. It is important to note that the City of Sebastopol did not initiate any litigation.
Appeal Of Design Review Board Denial
A second design for the CVS building was put forth by Armstrong Development. It incorporated a fake brick exterior, with detailing that gave it a “vintage” look, more in keeping with the feel of our downtown. While much more successful than the previous design, the Design Review Board continued to find the building and site plan lacking, and it was ultimately rejected by them.
Once again, Armstrong/CVS appealed the actions of a Council- appointed city advisory body to the then-City Council. The Council gave Armstrong/CVS final design approval on August 21, 2012. This cleared another large hurdle in the approval process. The vote was 3-2, with late Councilmember Michael Kyes and Councilmember Sarah Glade Gurney voting “No”.
A number of additional conditions were imposed by the Council, and it was agreed that the then-City Council would retain all future design approval authority. This move eliminated Sebastopol’s Design Review Board from the process from that point onwards. The result of the two major actions to date by the then-City Council (MND and Final Design approvals) was to seriously tie the hands of the succeeding Council to negotiate changes- the project was, in essence, approved and ready to move forward.
Tomorrow, Part 3 continues with The 2012 City Council Election...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
My appreciations to John for all he did as a Council member and for this part 2 history of the ongoing CVS struggle. I assume that Barry probably added the photos and appreciate his good work as a moderator to get these important stories to us and to illustrate them with appropriate graphics.
Speaking about important issues before the Sebastopol City Council, the Graton Day Labor Center is mobilizing workers to attend the Council meeting this evening at the Youth Annex on Morris Street. Please consider joining us there to support immigrant workers, Muslims, and others threatened with deportation. The meeting starts at 6 p.m.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Now that the store is in all we can do is try to mitigate some of the negatives. When I was younger I would have just taken my 22 rifle some late night and shot out those stinking glowing red signs. But I'm not like that anymore. Man those signs are jarring and horrible on a rainy night. They need to dim them down some at the very least.
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Re: How CVS conned Sebastopol
How CVS conned Sebastopol
by John Eder, former Sebastopol City Council Member
Part 3 of 5
(See Part 1 here)
(See Part 2 here)
The 2012 City Council Election
Five candidates ran for office in the November 2012 Sebastopol City Council election. It was essentially a single issue event- you were either a supporter or opponent of CVS. Two candidates, incumbent Councilmember Kathleen Shaffer and former Councilmember Kathy Austin, ran as supporters of CVS, with Robert Jacob and me running in opposition. Robert and I won seats on the City Council, thereby creating a majority on the Council critical of the project. The eerie silence from Armstrong/CVS continued after the election.
The Drive Through Moratorium
A prohibition on new fast food drive through facilities existed in Sebastopol at the time of the CVS project’s initial application. On December 18, 2012, the City Council initiated a moratorium on any new drive through facilities. This would allow them time to study the ramifications of an expansion of the existing prohibition on fast food drive through uses to include all drive through uses except gas stations, car washes and oil change facilities. The purpose of the moratorium was to preserve the existing status quo at the time of its imposition. Existing drive through facilities were protected, unless they ceased operation for a defined period of time.
It is established state law that cities are completely within their rights to amend their laws. What they cannot do is attempt to apply new regulations retroactively to previously-approved and vested projects. Many people incorrectly perceive that this is what the City Council did to CVS by invoking the moratorium and, ultimately, a prohibition against most new drive through facilities.
The reality is that Armstrong/CVS, due to their own inaction, had failed to achieve “vested rights” in the project. Having vested rights is defined as a legal status accorded to a project once the applicant has performed substantial work and incurred substantial costs after having obtained a building permit. Armstrong/CVS failed to achieve any of these requirements at the time the moratorium was implemented; thus, they had no right to expect immunity from any changes to existing City regulations. I am curious if Armstrong, being the savvy developers that they are, knew this when they sued Sebastopol.
Once the moratorium was initiated, the City was not obligated to process any additional permitting paperwork for any project that included a drive through component during the life of the moratorium. Thus, Armstrong/CVS was unable to proceed further at this point if they intended to retain the two proposed drive through windows. As before, they could have easily continued the permitting process, although no longer with the drive throughs.
A ban on all new drive through facilities (with exceptions as noted) was signed into law on Jan 6, 2015 by the Sebastopol City Council.
Merry Christmas, Sebastopol
“While visions of lawsuits danced in their heads…”
On December 24, 2012, representatives of Armstrong/CVS slid down the chimney at City Hall and served Sebastopol with paperwork initiating litigation against the City in state court. They accused the City Council of “depriving them of their civil rights”, seeing the moratorium as directed solely at their project. Thus began the legal confrontation, created by CVS, which ultimately cost the City of Sebastopol more than $360,000.00 to defend. The case was soon dismissed by CVS in state court, refiled by them in federal court on March 28, 2014 and eventually settled in September, 2014.
Negotiations Continue
On August 20, 2014, the City Council met with Armstrong/CVS to resolve final design issues.
At this meeting, CVS resisted the Council-imposed requirement for a second entrance at the corner of Sebastopol and Petaluma Avenues, citing security concerns. When confronted with photos of existing CVS stores with similar entry configurations, they agreed to the door, which is to remain open during all hours of operation.
From the beginning, CVS had insisted on a driveway on to Petaluma Avenue. The previous City Council had converted the driveway to an Emergency Vehicle Access (EVA) pathway, inaccessible to the public. The Council had also approved a provision that CVS could come back 90 days after opening to petition the City to convert it back to a driveway (this is still the case).
There is a major flaw with this (now existing) location. Emergency vehicles would need to take the most inefficient route possible, or drive opposing one way traffic on Petaluma Avenue to utilize it. At this meeting, an alternative EVA route was approved by the Council that led directly to the project site. This was fully resolved to the satisfaction of all involved, including the Fire Chief.
Finally, the Council was told by the Planning Director at this meeting that all signs for the CVS building would come back to the Design Review Board at a future date.
Sebastopol was now a defendant in two lawsuits. It should be noted that the members of the City Council directly participated in very few of the negotiations between the City of Sebastopol and CVS/STS. Negotiations were typically conducted between the City Attorney, with assistance from outside council, and the attorneys for CVS and/or Small Town Sebastopol. The Council provided direction to our attorneys, who took those proposals to the attorneys for CVS and STS.
During this phase, the Council proposed to CVS that the building be reconfigured from one to two stories, with the upper story occupied by City offices, library, housing, senior center, or any number of other uses. Part of the building was already configured to have a second story office area for the store. To our complete shock, they indicated agreement with this requirement. However, they were clear that they did not want next door/upstairs neighbors (as they have elsewhere), so the proposal was modified to only require an actual, useable, but unoccupied second story. The Council’s thinking was that, should CVS fail at this location, the building could be repurposed, including the possible division of the first story into several retail spaces, and the upper floor utilized for yet to be determined purposes.
Overall, I would say that the City Council succeeded in getting CVS to eventually agree to most of its proposals regarding this project during the negotiations.
Tomorrow, Part 4 starts with The Settlement
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Oh, if only every topic (here, or anywhere) could be covered like you have done here! Thank you so much.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
How CVS Conned Sebastopol
by John Eder, former Sebastopol City Council Member
Part 4 of 5
(See Part 1 here)
(See Part 2 here)
(See Part 3 here)
The Settlement
While negotiations were still in process, CVS approached both the City of Sebastopol and Small Town Sebastopol in May 2014 seeking a settlement of all litigation. As a result, on October 6, 2014, the City Council voted to authorize the Mayor to sign the Settlement Agreement that had been negotiated between Committee for Small Town Sebastopol, CVS and the City of Sebastopol.
Among the items contained in the agreement:
- All drive through facilities in the project are eliminated.
- The CVS building is to be redesigned to allow an actual functional second story, unoccupied at present, but suitable for future use.
- Left turns are prohibited into or out of Barnes Avenue off of Highway 12 (Sebastopol Ave).
- Solar panels are to be installed on CVS building roof.
- Five electric vehicle charging stations are to be provided, one at CVS, with four located elsewhere
- $150,000.00 is to be paid to Sebastopol and Small Town Sebastopol to compensate STS for legal costs, with the balance to be used for traffic mitigation measures (Note: the City is legally prohibited from recovering its legal expenses at any time, even if it prevails in a case). CVS admonished the City not to refer to this sum as “recovered legal fees”, for fear of the appearance of Sebastopol setting a precedent.
- Emergency Vehicle Access to be relocated on Petaluma Avenue to make it actually useable.
- Additional glass display windows to be provided on Highway 12 (Sebastopol Ave) face of building in lieu of solid brick wall.
- A greater setback for CVS building from the intersection of Hwy. 12 and Petaluma Avenue.
- Division of the project site into five parcels to allow future infill development at the site.
CVS Cons Sebastopol
A critical aspect of the Settlement Agreement for the City Council was the two-story CVS building design. The Council had made clear that they had three requirements for the second story: a load-bearing floor, an electrical service panel and a means of access (any other second story improvements were not the responsibility of CVS). Based upon negotiations, it was understood that these were to be provided. A line in City of Sebastopol Resolution 6007, dated October 9, 2014, in summarizing the terms of the settlement, refers to, “…provision of building features that would allow for a future second story for the CVS building…” Correspondence related to the negotiations had contained language such as “…true second story”, “A redesign of the CVS building including a second story…”, “Second story on the CVS building”, “…the second story have the opportunity to be used at some point in the future.”, “…a load-bearing floor on the second story of the CVS building…” Many more references to this essential item can be found elsewhere in relevant legal paperwork. It was clear that the City had received a commitment from CVS to build a two story building.
The City Council had requested updated, detailed drawings from Armstrong/CVS for months prior to the settlement, but we were told that they were not available. The City repeatedly requested cross-section drawings, as it was unclear exactly what CVS was proposing.
The requested drawings were finally received by the City Council on the day that we were due to sign the settlement Agreement, date stamped by the City as received on October 6, 2014 . The first thing noted by the City Council was the date on the drawings- August 15, 2014- two and a half months prior to the settlement date (contrary to CVS statements). The absence of cross-section plans was also noted. These were received electronically during the meeting where the signing of the Settlement Agreement, per the previous negotiations, was to take place.
While awaiting the cross-section plans, it was noted that the two story building elevations were now annotated “Glass in thickened parapet wall”, with an arrow pointing to the upper story windows. This was the first time that the Council had seen this annotation. The cross-section plans confirmed the Council’s suspicions. The upper story was fake- much like a Hollywood set. There was no roof above the first floor, the “thickened parapet” merely being first floor walls that extended upwards to hide the mechanical equipment on the first floor roof. The upper story windows are non-functional- in the completed building, their latches and hinges are on the exterior of the building. If they could be opened, they would open outwards. Lights are provided to give the appearance of the upper story being occupied at night.
At this point, it was obvious that the City Council and citizens of Sebastopol had been misled- conned, actually, by CVS. The Council indicated to our attorneys that the fake second story was a “deal-killer”- the settlement was off. We were informed by our legal team that if the settlement was not signed that day, CVS was prepared to go to court the following week to restart their litigation against Sebastopol, with an initial estimate of “next phase” legal costs of $500,000.00, and possibly more. While our attorneys felt that we would likely prevail in court, the Council realized that the City could not sustain continued litigation costs of this magnitude (don’t forget, per state law, the City cannot recover their legal costs, even if they prevail).
The next unilateral revision depicted in the CVS drawings was the relocation of the Emergency Vehicle Access (EVA) pathway, from a Council-directed functional location back to its original illogical location. This reinstated the ability of CVS to approach the City Council at a future date to easily reconfigure it back into a driveway off of Petaluma Avenue, which was perceived as a traffic hazard by the previous Council.
But their con didn’t stop here. The CVS building signs had yet to be reviewed or approved by the Council as of the date of the settlement. When this was brought to the attention of CVS, they responded, “The signs that you see on our drawings are the signs that you are going to get.”
The con continued. The second, smaller building in the project, which had always been slated for a financial institution and designed as such, was now labeled “Retail or Bank”, a change made without agreement from the City. This unilateral redesignation is significant. It opens up the possibility of a future conflict over this building’s use. Does CVS feel that it is “grandfathered” in regards to Sebastopol’s Formula Business Ordinance, passed into law after the settlement agreement? In the view of CVS, is this a potential already-approved fast food location without a drive through?
I can’t help but wonder if CVS pulled the last minute con on Sebastopol as a means to extract retribution over the loss of their drive through window.
Tomorrow, the series concludes with "The Future"
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
How CVS conned Sebastopol
by John Eder, former Sebastopol City Council Member
Part 5 of 5
(See Part 1 here)
(See Part 2 here)
(See Part 3 here)
(See Part 4 here)
The Future
The City Council fought tenaciously for the best and highest use of this very visible site, always seeking an improved result. Is the behavior of CVS as described herein something that you condone? In my view, this is implied if you patronize their new store. If you don’t agree with the actions of CVS in this matter, the best action that you can take is to boycott the store, and encourage all of your friends to do the same. This store serves a market estimated to be in excess of 30,000 people in Sebastopol and the West County. As you can see, it is going to take a lot of “word of mouth” to have an effect.
If you don’t agree with
the actions of CVS
in this matter,
the best action that
you can take is to
boycott the store
There are viable alternatives for prescriptions nearby, including locally-owned stores. Express your opinion with your dollars by withholding your business from the new store. Also, per the City’s Conditions of Approval, "It is noted that the application allows members of the public unrestricted parking in all on-site spaces." This means that the CVS parking lot is a free public parking lot. I encourage you to use it often while shopping elsewhere or visiting our downtown- no patronage of CVS is required.
Some have stated, “CVS had the right to buy the land and develop it.” This is true, but doesn’t the manner in which they went about it cause you to question whether or not you support their actions? Armstrong/CVS was combative from the very early stages and proved their lack of trustworthiness throughout this process, creating suspicions that linger still. Close monitoring is required to insure that they actually meet their commitments to Sebastopol.
Others claim that the drive through ban discriminates against the disabled, the sick, parents with children, etc. To this I respond, “Just use the Sebastopol drive through pharmacy that you have always used.” Their typical response is, “We’ve never had one.” Somehow, since Sebastopol was incorporated in 1902, we have survived without a drive through pharmacy. There are alternatives. Forestville Pharmacy, for example, will deliver to your home in Sebastopol for a nominal charge.
My hope is that the new store, due to poor access issues, traffic congestion and active opposition, will become an “underperforming” location for CVS, leading to its closure. While they may operate the store at a loss for a while, possibly to demonstrate their disdain for Sebastopol and our neighbors, sooner or later it could draw the attention of higher management. CVS is slated to shutter 70 locations in the first part of 2017. Could the new store find itself on a corporate “hit list” sometime in the future? You can personally increase the chances of that happening.
I am told that the fake two story building cannot be economically reconfigured for a true upper story. If true, Sebastopol is stuck for the foreseeable future with a Hollywood set on one of our most prominent corners. It is likely that this building will need to be demolished to make way for a more intense and appropriate use of this precious land in our urban core.
Conclusion
For years, every time that I passed the dead Pellini dealership, I intuitively knew that it was going to be developed, and, given its size, likely by a deep-pocketed developer who wouldn’t necessarily have the best interests of our town as their first priority. I, along with many others, was “asleep at the switch”. Preoccupation with my own life allowed me to ignore the looming potential of inadequate, substandard development at this site. Sebastopol could have gotten out in front of this project by visioning the future use of this property, and then taking the steps necessary to insure a successful result. They couldn’t afford to purchase the property, but they could have crafted parameters that would have provided a potential developer with a statement of our expectations. As a result of this experience, the City of Sebastopol took a more proactive route with the former Diamond Lumber Yard/Sebastopol Tractor Supply site adjacent to the Plaza. That process resulted in the current proposal for the Sebastopol Hotel. While many people are not pleased and worry, with justification, about the gentrification of Sebastopol, in my opinion, this process worked and the result is a success. For some time, there were unsubstantiated rumors that an Applebee’s Neighborhood Grill and Bar was going to be developed there. True or not, you can imagine all of the possibilities that would be much worse than the proposed hotel.
The City of Sebastopol had a solid case, and, based on the courts’ tendency to rule in favor of cities in similar cases, it was felt that we had a very high probability of prevailing in court. The cost, however, would be staggering. It was also felt by the City that the Committee for Small Town Sebastopol (STS) may have found the “smoking gun”- a flawed traffic study. Had an EIR with a more thorough traffic study been required, it likely would have divulged the inability of the CVS project to legally comply with CEQA due to traffic impacts, thereby killing it. It was also felt by the City that the settlement overture from CVS was motivated primarily by the STS lawsuit. It likely was of greatest concern to CVS, as they may have recognized the extent of their exposure to a loss in court should the case ever be heard. Unfortunately, STS was unable to continue to challenge CVS due to the enormous potential costs involved. The only other plausible explanation for their request for settlement discussions was recognition by higher management at CVS of the costs and time delays that had been incurred by them to that point. It is thought that CVS conceivably spent the better part of a million dollars on litigation to this point, with additional significant costs yet to come.
While the City Council fought hard, in the end we were outspent, out lawyered, out maneuvered and out smarted by CVS. This is what they do for a living. They fight battles in many communities like ours, and even the slightest appearance of a victory by the “little guy” is unacceptable to them, as it gives courage to their current and future foes.
Finally, as I stated in my farewell remarks when leaving the City Council last December, I truly feel that City staff and two successive City Councils failed the citizens of Sebastopol on many levels in this matter, and for that I am sorry.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
So there's the whole story, according to former City Councilmember John Eder.
To recap, the city had an existing moratorium on drive through windows for fast food restaurants at the point of CVS's initial application was filed. The city then extended the moratorium to all new drive throughs after the project was approved but before it had "vested rights". CVS then sued the city and eventually reached a settlement with the city that included a requirement for a "functional second story" which would make the building more suitable for future uses should CVS move out.
CVS waited to supply the final design until the day the agreement was to be signed, and the design did not include a functional second story, along with other design aspects that had been agreed on but not delivered, plus attempting to re-designate the abandoned Chase bank as "Retail or Bank".
CVS threatened the city to continue to pursue their lawsuit, even though it was destined to fail, with their big corporate budget unless Sebastopol signed the agreement that day. The city caved under financial pressure.
Now what do you think? Will you shop at CVS? Will you boycott or accept it?
And how do you feel about the building, parking lot and traffic effects??
Seems like lots of people are making left turns on Hwy 12 into the parking lot. Is that causing trouble??
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Barry,
Thanks for putting up with me on the telling of this account. It is important that as many people in Sebastopol and the West County know what a crappy corporate neighbor they have with CVS...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I never understood the logic or science that the City has on drive throughs. Certainly one for a pharmacy is a better use than for fast food places. Which all have them. If it's greenhouse gasses, what about all the cars idling into and through town every day, hundreds.
I always felt that those folks who wanted a park or a more "appropriate" use for the site should have done something about it.So we have CVS.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Thanks John for a clear and concise presentation, both facts and analysis. I hope it helps other towns battle this corporate rapist. My only critique is for the word conned. Screwed is more apt. Cvs waited, planning their moment, then twisted the city over and shoved it in.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by John Eder:
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I agree, Sebastopol was outsmarted by CVS. I do think John and co-council owes us a Mea Culpa. After all it was us voters who got conned into thinking that we would be protected against this behavior by their election. Instead we now have a precedent and open invitation to more harm by other big companies to come to town and do the same.
Why weren't there penalties or retainers build into the permit process to overcome these kind of confrontations? Where was the due diligence, I doubt this was the first time CVS has done this.
I also would like John to explain why you would force a builder to build a 2nd story that they didn't want, but telling them that it would help the City in case the store fails.... Is that Sebastopol's welcome to our town now? It's akin to telling a teenager that they can only buy a van since they might get pregnant and then they would need it for their kids.
:2cents:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
... My only critique is for the word conned. Screwed is more apt. Cvs waited, planning their moment, then twisted the city over and shoved it in.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Bob,
You seem to be blaming the victim, in this case John and others on the City Council. They fought heroically against one of the largest, most powerful, wealthy corporations in the world. They and we lost, but not because we did not try. We lost because at least one City Council member, Kathleen Schaefer, sided with CVS and Chase Bank at that time, seeking their benefits. She wanted to be mayor. She was defeated in the following election and quickly moved away in disgrace. John represented the majority of us, and still does.
We were not "outsmarted." We are a small town and we were out-spent. John is out there weekly with his Boycott CVS signs. And you? We were not "conned," as you say. We were well-represented by John and others, who did the best that they could, under the circumstances. There is no "open invitation to more harm." We will continue to fight. Join us, rather than blame the victims.
BOYCOTT CVS! RUN THEM OUT OF OUR SMALL TOWN!
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Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
I agree, Sebastopol was outsmarted by CVS. I do think John and co-council owes us a Mea Culpa. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Victims? Maybe more like sheep that were led astray Shepherd? How were we well represented if CVS did what it wanted to do? Come on, they didn't do their due diligence. If they had and used good legal counsel, they could have put all kind of penalties or retainers build in to the permit process with a building that was obvious over their head. It DOES create an open invitation for anyone with deep pockets to THREATEN to sue the town and get what you want.......
I've seen John out there and admire that he continues to fight, not so sure what he's fighting though, does he want another empty store there? His presence actually has the opposite effect. It attracts attention to the store that to the casual observer looks closed with those dark tinted windows. At least that's what it looked like to me.
So we didn't get an unoccupied 2nd story, is that really a crime? The added traffic is a joke. The most perilous traffic situation in Sebastopol is right in front of WF! I don't see anyone protesting that intersection or admonishing WF that they don't have enough parking for the size of the store, but I bet anyone who drives in Sebastopol has a story about a close encounter in that stretch of traffic turmoil.
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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
Bob,
You seem to be blaming the victim, in this case John and others on the City Council. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Are you aware you are writing about two city council configurations? And do you get the legal restrictions governmental authorities have in us? If you did your critique would be far more entertaining. Cvs has strongarmed a wasteland into the heart of our town and the people who fought to mitigate it (with demonstrable positive effect), you chose to trash. Please try to make your point again. I really do think you might have something worth the time to read.
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Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
Victims? Maybe more like sheep that were led astray Shepherd? How were we well represented if CVS did what it wanted to do? Come on, they didn't do their due diligence. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Yes, Ross, the 2nd council was voted in to FIX the CVS deal!
Yes, Ross, I'm aware of the legal restrictions governmental authorities have in US. Have you ever pulled a building permit, Ross? Did you feel restricted or did you feel the town was restricted?
So now tell me, Ross, how Sebastopol can FORCE an owner of a store to put up a 2nd story it's not going to use??? Would they have to pay taxes for that? Would they be forced to develop it? is that what you mean by " legal restrictions governmental authorities have in us"?
Right now this is a personal vendetta for John who has stated that he wants CVS to fail!
What good would that do for Sebastopol, please tell me that, Ross. I think that would be entertaining.....
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
Are you aware you are writing about two city council configurations? And do you get the legal restrictions governmental authorities have in us? If you did your critique would be far more entertaining. ... Please try to make your point again...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
John, my apologies for my hastily written reprimand. After rereading your final conclusion it appears that we have come to the same conclusion a) The council could have been more pro-active and " they could have crafted parameters that would have provided a potential developer with a statement of our expectations"
b) The city of Sebastopol did not do due diligence, "I truly feel that City staff and two successive City Councils failed the citizens of Sebastopol on many levels in this matter, and for that I am sorry."
John, I never questioned your integrity or dedication to the project, just the experience or competence to take on the big boys.
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Posted in reply to the post by John Eder:
How CVS conned Sebastopol
by John Eder, former Sebastopol City Council Member
Part 5 of 5
...
Conclusion
For years, every time that I passed the dead Pellini dealership, I intuitively knew that it was going to be developed, and, given its size, likely by a deep-pocketed developer who wouldn’t necessarily have the best interests of our town as their first priority. I, along with many others, was “asleep at the switch”. Preoccupation with my own life allowed me to ignore the looming potential of inadequate, substandard development at this site. Sebastopol could have gotten out in front of this project by visioning the future use of this property, and then taking the steps necessary to insure a successful result. They couldn’t afford to purchase the property, but they could have crafted parameters that would have provided a potential developer with a statement of our expectations. As a result of this experience, the City of Sebastopol took a more proactive route with the former Diamond Lumber Yard/Sebastopol Tractor Supply site adjacent to the Plaza. That process resulted in the current proposal for the Sebastopol Hotel. While many people are not pleased and worry, with justification, about the gentrification of Sebastopol, in my opinion, this process worked and the result is a success. For some time, there were unsubstantiated rumors that an Applebee’s Neighborhood Grill and Bar was going to be developed there. True or not, you can imagine all of the possibilities that would be much worse than the proposed hotel.
The City of Sebastopol had a solid case, and, based on the courts’ tendency to rule in favor of cities in similar cases, it was felt that we had a very high probability of prevailing in court. The cost, however, would be staggering. It was also felt by the City that the Committee for Small Town Sebastopol (STS) may have found the “smoking gun”- a flawed traffic study. Had an EIR with a more thorough traffic study been required, it likely would have divulged the inability of the CVS project to legally comply with CEQA due to traffic impacts, thereby killing it. It was also felt by the City that the settlement overture from CVS was motivated primarily by the STS lawsuit. It likely was of greatest concern to CVS, as they may have recognized the extent of their exposure to a loss in court should the case ever be heard. Unfortunately, STS was unable to continue to challenge CVS due to the enormous potential costs involved. The only other plausible explanation for their request for settlement discussions was recognition by higher management at CVS of the costs and time delays that had been incurred by them to that point. It is thought that CVS conceivably spent the better part of a million dollars on litigation to this point, with additional significant costs yet to come.
While the City Council fought hard, in the end we were outspent, out lawyered, out maneuvered and out smarted by CVS. This is what they do for a living. They fight battles in many communities like ours, and even the slightest appearance of a victory by the “little guy” is unacceptable to them, as it gives courage to their current and future foes.
Finally, as I stated in my farewell remarks when leaving the City Council last December, I truly feel that City staff and two successive City Councils failed the citizens of Sebastopol on many levels in this matter, and for that I am sorry.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
The threat of a lawsuit against KOWS Radio and the City Council was also the deciding factor in KOWS loss on the issue of building an antenna. This, unfortunately, is the trump card played by wealthy groups.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Yes i do have significant experience building and pulling permits, even development. It a crazy game. I don't know if the city had the right to require the structure have a developable second strory, they certainly tried. And i think in the long run it would be good for both town and company. Why cvs chose to play the bully endgame to avoid this requirement i don't know, but its a clear example why so many communities struggle with cvs.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
...Have you ever pulled a building permit, Ross? ...
So now tell me, Ross, how Sebastopol can FORCE an owner of a store to put up a 2nd story it's not going to use???....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I will never shop there and will encourage my friends and contacts to do the same.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
LOL this reminds me of a friend of mine who lives on Hurlbut. She protested the Longs/Lucky shopping center and was very active in trying to prevent the development and encroachment on her neighborhood. She vowed to never shop there and kept her word for a couple of years until she realized that it was costing her money and time to go elsewhere and she slowly started to go whenever it was convenient until the protests were all forgotten.
Tell me applefan which stores are you going to shop at instead?
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Posted in reply to the post by applefan:
I will never shop there and will encourage my friends and contacts to do the same.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Mr. O'Foole,
Welcome to Wacco. I have compiled a list of alternatives to CVS for applefan and everyone else, shown below. These should more than adequately meet your needs as well, Bob.
Pharmacy alternatives to CVS in Sebastopol and the West County:
1.) Rite Aid Pharmacy 218 N. Main Street Sebastopol (707) 829-3007
Store Hours: 8 am-9 pm Pharmacy: 9 am-9 pm (9 am-6 pm Sat/10 am-6 pm Sun)
2.) Safeway Pharmacy 406 N. Main Street Sebastopol (707) 823-1937
Store Hours: 24/7 Pharmacy: 9 am-8 pm (9 am-5 pm Sat/Sun)
3.) Forestville Pharmacy 6652 Front Street (Highway 116) Forestville (707) 887-2268
Store and Pharmacy Hours: 9 am-6:30 pm (M-F) Store Hours: 9 am-5 pm (Sat/Sun) Pharmacy Hours: 10 am-5 pm (Sat) Closed Sun (They deliver to Sebastopol and the West County for a nominal charge.) Local business.
4.) Lark Drug Pharmacy 16251 Main Street Guerneville (707) 869-9055
Store and Pharmacy Hours: 9 am-6:30 pm (M-F) Store Hours: 10 am-6 pm (Sat) 11 am-3 pm (Sun) Pharmacy Hours: 10 am-4 pm (Sat) Closed Sun Local business.
5.) Safeway Pharmacy 16405 Highway 116 Guerneville (707) 869-0613
Store Hours: 24/7 Pharmacy: 9 am-7 pm (9 am-5 pm Sat/Sun)
If at all possible, GO LOCAL- keep your dollars in our communities.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
LOL this reminds me of a friend of mine who lives on Hurlbut. She protested the Longs/Lucky shopping center and was very active in trying to prevent the development and encroachment on her neighborhood. She vowed to never shop there and kept her word for a couple of years until she realized that it was costing her money and time to go elsewhere and she slowly started to go whenever it was convenient until the protests were all forgotten.
Tell me applefan which stores are you going to shop at instead?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Yeah, I figured you would recommend safeway. Here's an article so you know what you are supporting now John...
https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/03/...-make-changes/
Just making sure you want to support the gun lobby, John!
Now, the grocer is in the hands of a savvy private equity group that is perhaps best known not for its supermarket holdings but for its stake in gun and car companies and military contractors. Cerberus owns the country’s largest gun company, Freedom Group, and in 2003 bought two of the largest rental car companies — Alamo and National. Then in 2007, it bought Chrysler, the car company that two years later required a taxpayer bailout.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
And Rite-aid/Walgreen, are they any better than CVS?
https://nationalpainreport.com/story...s-8823345.html
Walgreens' management noted that it also would seek to merge some Rite Aid locations into Walgreens stores and viewed Rite Aid stores as "generally inferior" to Walgreens stores, Mushkin wrote.
"Perhaps even more important is that after listening to management, we expect that as Rite Aid's leases come up for renewal, (Walgreens) would look to actively prune Rite Aid's store base," he said.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
John, I have a few more questions for you.
Were you on the City council when Whole Foods took over the video store? Was there a traffic impact study done or required at the time of the expansion? As I mentioned before The WF traffic congestion is a major obstacle in downtown Sebastopol. Will this ever be addressed or just accepted? CVS is NOT downtown but on the outskirts with minimal foot traffic (there are no other walk-in stores on that side)
Who allowed the mess that is the Barlows? To have a "shoppingcentre" with cars driving through it while they could have created a pedestrian haven/ open space in the center with building surrounding it instead. What it is now, is pedestrians dodging cars to get from one store to another. The barlows could have been a major open air event/ hang out space in town instead we got What?
So John what I'm saying is that maybe CVS is not the problem but the building permit/planning/design people in Sebastopol are the real problem. Ask Ross what it takes to pull a permit if you don't believe me.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
To be clear. KOWS and the City of Sebastopol WERE sued! KOWS voluntarily withdrew it's application out of consideration for the city. It is very likely KOWS would have prevailed on the merits of the case. However the station and the city simply didn't have the money to spend to defend themselves. Especially after what happened with CVS. As it turned out the plaintiff was able to extort concessions from both the city and the station regarding ever trying to reapply for a permit at the same site. Remind you of anyone? Sad!
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
...And how do you feel about the building, parking lot and traffic effects??
Seems like lots of people are making left turns on Hwy 12 into the parking lot. Is that causing trouble??
John, Barry?
I thought there was to be no left turn allowed into CVS from West-bound Hwy 12?! It is a problem. There's back up there for the signal at Petaluma Ave and Hwy 12 and it's hard enough to get through that intersection during high usage times. I'm concerned that drivers will try getting around cars stopped there for a left-hand turn and more traffic jams will occur (and frustration, too).
And a side question about the moratorium on drive-throughs: I asked at the library why they don't have a drop-box for those of us that just have books and media to return. As it is, the parking near the library is so impacted that I am often circling 2 or 3 times before finding a spot to park and am sometimes idling while I wait for a spot to clear. I could walk to the library, but I am often dropping off my books as part of a full day of work and errands an it's right along my route.
The librarian I asked about a drive-by drop box told me it is considered a drive-thru and would not be allowed. Wouldn't it help with traffic congestion and flow and pollution if the library had a drive-by drop box? I imagine this issue has been explored before . . .
Thanks guys,
Terriann
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, in spite of the claim by one person. One can get backed up for a long time and further than Llano Rd. to the East, and pass the library to the West. Traffic alone should be enough to condemn CVS, a pharmacy which should be helping heal people, rather than make our lives worse.
BOYCOTT CVS!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Tiann:
John, Barry?
I thought there was to be no left turn allowed into CVS from West-bound Hwy 12?! It is a problem. There's back up there for the signal at Petaluma Ave and Hwy 12 and it's hard enough to get through that intersection during high usage times. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, ...
Yeah Shepherd, I guess before CVS opened up there was NO traffic problem on that one lane intersection into town????? Does the Barlow traffic add to the congestion of the one lane feed into town???
If CVS were to leave and another store, like WF for instance, would move in there you would be OK with that left turn? What you are doing is making very selective observations and only apply them to CVS and then you try to paint me as the sole looney because I'm not one of your sheep.
Maybe you didn't live here before WF moved in, and I'm the only who remembers the old health food store but it never was such a mess as it is now! Right now the WF traffic can back up to the CVS intersection and it has on numerous occasions!
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Yes sealwatcher, it IS progress and growth that brings WF and CVS and the Barlow to town. The funny thing is that the sheeple on Wacco only see CVS as the problem. It is not!
John, (the City Council) played poker with CVS and they lost. John had all the aces in his hand but when CVS raised their hand, he folded. He could have stopped their bluff, but he didn't and now he wants his money back.
That's not how the game is played.
They didn't do a proper traffic study and now he wants to rewrite the rules and blame CVS. CVS got away with almost everything they came for and now John is butthurt and he gets the troops riled up for what? Everybody is following lockstep because it is so easy to blame big money?
John had a chance to do something about CVS and he didn't. Stop making excuses for a small town mind with no clear vision of what it wants to be! The hopscotch developments across the bowling alley are another example of another disaster planning for Sebastopol. Wake up! :2cents:
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Like every American story these days, there are layers to unfold so as to accomplish a broader and more inclusive perspective of things.
CVS, unlike Rite Aid and Safeway have chosen NOT to benefit from tax "inversion"....the legal tool that supports American company mergers with overseas firms thereby allowing significant tax avoidance. They also don't sell cigarettes anymore....
They may be corporate America, but are they the lesser of evils?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Well if you're a NRA member support the gun lobby and military contractors, you will definitely feel at home at Safeway! see my earlier post.
Rite Aid/Walgreen DOES have a European foothold for tax reasons! from their own site;
Walgreens Boots Alliance is the largest retail pharmacy, health and daily living destination across the USA and Europe. Walgreens Boots Alliance and the companies in which it has equity method investments together have a presence in more than 25* countries and employ more than 400,000* people. The company is a global leader in pharmacy-led, health and wellbeing retail and, together with the companies in which it has equity method investments, has over 13,200* stores in 11* countries as well as one of the largest global pharmaceutical wholesale and distribution networks, with over 390* distribution centers delivering to more than 230,000** pharmacies, doctors, health centers and hospitals each year in more than 20* countries. In addition, Walgreens Boots Alliance is one of the world’s largest purchasers of prescription drugs and many other health and wellbeing products.
Please see my earlier post. :wink2:
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I still don't understand why we're thrashing around about CVS, a fait accompli, when the hotel project is going to be a huge, huge traffic problem at the same place, and can possibly still be affected by public outcry. We are wasting out time wringing our hands about something that cannot be undone, while this new threat can be mitigated, possibly.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Ohana:
...CVS, unlike Rite Aid and Safeway have chosen NOT to benefit from tax "inversion"....the legal tool that supports American company mergers with overseas firms thereby allowing significant tax avoidance.
Rite Aid, which was bought by Walgreens who merged with Alliance Boots of the UK, has chosen NOT to use the inversion strategy to avoid US taxes. More info here. Safeway is using inversion.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
LOL, Diane you don't make sense. You're not supposed to bring forth logical arguments that debunk the notion that CVS is the problem. You will be branded as the lone voice who has no standing in this community. The hotel will gridlock that intersection at times, but don't forget they will have a 2nd story! :wink:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Diane Darling:
I still don't understand why we're thrashing around about CVS, a fait accompli, when the hotel project is going to be a huge, huge traffic problem at the same place, and can possibly still be affected by public outcry. ....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
This is sufficient reason for any conscious person to use Rite Aid. I have been using it for decades now and always found it just fine (hate the new layout of the Seb store, but WTF, eh?). Let's face it folks, our most powerful vote is our dollars, so transfer your prescriptions to Rite Aide or stop whining right now.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
Rite Aid, which was bought by Walgreens who merged with Alliance Boots of the UK, has chosen NOT to use the inversion strategy to avoid US taxes.
More info here. Safeway is using inversion.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
...If CVS were to leave and another store, like WF for instance, would move in there you would be OK with that left turn? ...
I would not support a left turn on Hwy 12 into the current CVS location for any high volume store (such as WF). I don't know if a left turn was allowed when it was a Ford(?) dealership, but that had much lower visitation. A big ticket/low volume business would be appropriate there.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
So your point is that the left hand turn is the problem, not CVS?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
I would not support a left turn on Hwy 12 into the current CVS location for any high volume store (such as WF). ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
4 stories. Please get your facts and logic straight. Here we have a wider community forum to discuss development issues in sebtown, read by powers that be. The traffic study for cvs was flawed, just read it. The one for the hotel is of similar quality, too small a scope, with optimistic assumptions. Traffic engineers are dogs, eager to please.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
... The hotel will gridlock that intersection at times, but don't forget they will have a 2nd story! :wink:
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
So your point is... groups make mistakes and any member involved should fall on their sword instead of sharing info and next steps?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
...John, (the City Council) played poker with CVS and they lost. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
:confused:
Are you saying there will be no 2nd story for the hotel ross? I don't think that's possible since it will be 4 stories high.
Traffic study for CVS was illegal according to John. Do you know something more we don't know? :hmmm:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
4 stories. Please get your facts and logic straight. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
:hmmm: Ross is your point that one person's POV (John's in this case) is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and everybody should just follow lockstep? It sure seems that the established order on this site wants to drown out some critical observations because I'm a newbie here (not in life)
John logic is flawed to put it mildly.
Two simple questions for you, Ross, and if you are willing to answer them, I'll tell you why he's barking up the wrong tree!
- If CVS had a 2nd story and it were developed for businesses or stores would that attract more or less traffic to that corner?
- I think John was on council for the hotel (not sure) but tell me will the hotel attract more or less traffic to that corner?
Two simple questions, I'd like to hear your logic.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
So your point is... groups make mistakes and any member involved should fall on their sword instead of sharing info and next steps?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I agree that more building on the old pellini lot would be potentially more beneficial for the town. More traffic? Depends whats there. I think the hotel is too high, not sure about the traffic, don't trust the study done, too simplistic, in different ways than the cvs and barlow ones. I appreciate john for his honesty and willingness to play here. I learned a lot from his telling of the sebcvs story and take his warnings of future cvs moves with grave concern.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
... Two simple questions for you Ross ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I'm getting lost in your reasoning Ross. So let me spell it out for you.
1) Regardless of what kind of business is in the 2nd story of CVS it WILL increase traffic with delivery, workers, service and if it is retail it would potentially DOUBLE the CVS traffic.
2) the hotel, same thing an increase of traffic with delivery, workers, service and guest checking in and out and going on trips.
John is out there saying that CVS is creating the traffic problems; this is not true!
Traffic has been a problem for years on that corner.
People turning left into CVS is a new problem, but there are other businesses before CVS where people turn left in to as well. Will that be prohibited as well? If traffic is an issue, he should ask for a new traffic study and request strict enforcement and signage to prevent any potential conflict.
Merely seeking to close down CVS doesn't do anybody any good, city will lose tax, people lose jobs and Sebasto will have another empty eyesore. It's vengeful because he lost, but it's bordering juvenil
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
.... More traffic? Depends whats there....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I don't know where you live but, in Sebastopol, the traffic around Whole Foods is worse and much more dangerous than anything around CVS. I've been nearly hit I can't count how many times because people coming from the Barlow or the road the police station is on don't seem to realize that the main road has no stop sign at that bend. Idiot drivers just pull out with no safe room to do so.
Not to mention the pedestrians who are nearly hit every 5 minutes as cars just speed around the bend and pull into the Whole Foods parking lot without looking.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods,...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
https://waccobb.net/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Shepherd wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/image...post-right.png
The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, in spite of the claim by one person.
And then there is two....
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by vlondi:
I don't know where you live but, in Sebastopol, the traffic around Whole Foods is worse and much more dangerous than anything around CVS....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/pr...quote_icon.png Shepherd wrote: https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/pr...post-right.png
The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, in spite of the claim by one person.
And then there is three....
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:
In my experience, the traffic at both these places is bad enough to cause me to take a circuitous route from my studio at Burbank Heights to get to either WFM or Community Market. How circuitous? Well, I'm a back roads driver naturally but going around Morris Street from Analy will get me there. Starting out by crossing carefully and watchfully at Bodega onto Nelson is just the start. We have a huge traffic problem here now and I really can't see what can be done. CVS and the Barlow have simply made it worse than before. Maybe that overpass over the Laguna IS a reasonable idea.:wink2:
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Tiann:
John, Barry?
I thought there was to be no left turn allowed into CVS from West-bound Hwy 12?! It is a problem. There's back up there for the signal at Petaluma Ave and Hwy 12 and it's hard enough to get through that intersection during high usage times. I'm concerned that drivers will try getting around cars stopped there for a left-hand turn and more traffic jams will occur (and frustration, too)....
Terriann,
Regarding your question about left turns into/out of the CVS project from/on to Highway 12:
The Mitigated Negative Declaration/Initial Study for the CVS project incorporates the AECOM (traffic engineering consultants) Transportation Impact Study, dated March 16, 2011. This study was commissioned and adopted by the Sebastopol City Council immediately preceding the one upon which I served.
The report discusses the intersection of Barnes Avenue (herein referred to as “the driveway”) and Sebastopol Avenue (Highway 12), concluding on Page 32: “Thus, it is recommended that a right-in/right-out restriction for the Project driveway on Sebastopol Avenue be implemented.”
It further states, “The recommended right-in/right-out restriction on Sebastopol Avenue driveway can be implemented through physical barriers and traffic channelizing devices such as barrier wall systems, wide raised medians, non-traversable curb islands, and traversable raised curb systems. For example, a barrier wall system can be implemented between opposing travel lanes on Sebastopol Avenue in order to restrict left turns into and out of the driveway. Barrier wall systems are effective for deterring violations, but the driveway can also be designed with a channelizing concrete island to further deter left-in/left-out turns.”
It concludes that, “A barrier wall system would create a barrier between westbound and eastbound on Sebastopol Avenue, which would restrict westbound vehicles from crossing over to the eastbound travel lanes in order to make a left turn into the driveway. Similarly, the barrier would restrict northbound vehicles from making a left turn out of the driveway. The concrete island would restrict maneuverability to allow entry/exit from/to the eastbound direction.”
Caltrans submitted a letter to the City of Sebastopol on September 20, 2012 that agreed with the need to place a restriction on left turns at this location.
At present, no indicators (signs, pavement markings, etc.) have been installed on westbound Highway 12 that left turns into the project are not allowed. A “No Left Turn” sign and a “Right Turn Only” pavement marking have been installed on Barnes Avenue where it intersects Highway 12.
It should be noted that there is no center turn (or “refuge”) lane at this location, as there is serving the businesses immediately east of it. Therefore, all left turn movements into/out of Barnes Avenue are from/into the westbound traffic lanes.
The City of Sebastopol, in its Conditions of Approval, required right turns only out of Barnes Avenue. It further states that the City shall monitor this location for issues with left turns into Barnes Avenue from Highway 12. Should they be deemed “…a substantial circulation issue…” the City may require signs or physical roadway restrictions. It is unclear if Caltrans ceded jurisdiction to the City at this location.
I continue to be in communication with both the City of Sebastopol and Caltrans regarding this matter.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I have to agree with others that the very worst congestion and diciest traffic is at the WF cluster****. Traffic at the CVS junction has been particularly bad, both east and west, on Hwy 12 for years. There has been a noticeable uptick since the completion of both The Barlow and Community Market. Those blocks between Gravenstein Station and CVS have upgraded considerably in recent years and generally are inviting more traffic of every sort.
I haven't noticed many cars in the CVS lot yet but have noticed the right turn onto 12 east is moving more quickly with the restoration of the turn lane and the occasional car turning into the CVS lot, thinning out the traffic at the light . I've yet to encounter a problem due to someone turning left into the lot from 12 west.
There are lots of reasons to dislike CVS, but I fail to see traffic being among them.
As to design, I find the building to be a generic red brick monolith that may strike the "middle gray" of architecture. Though I don't care for it, I could easily find several examples I find more offensive within a block.
Finally, what were the viable alternatives to this? The old Pellini building had become unsightly. Who else ever really stepped up acquire the property and who would be able to use the property, with architecture that everyone loves to hate, if CVS were to be successfully chased away?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/pr...quote_icon.png Shepherd wrote: https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/pr...post-right.png
The left and right turns from Highway 12 into CVS are far worse than the traffic outside Whole Foods, in spite of the claim by one person.
And then there is four....
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by photolite:
I have to agree with others that the very worst congestion and diciest traffic is at the WF cluster****. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Funny how photolite says exactly the same as what I have been saying over several posts and gets a thumbs up from Barry right away, same as Shepherd who chastised me, gets a thumbs up, as he tried to single me out as a one person conspirator for mentioning the WF mess.
Maybe that's how the old boys network works on this site..
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I like the idea of a classy new hotel in Sebastopol … someplace a bit more appealing than the Main St Saloon, to have a drink.
As to traffic concerns, I can't see how a 66 room hotel would generate the traffic that retail would. Of course if it's well designed & run, people may visit the restaurant more.
Sadly, nothing stays the same. As a 40 yr resident of California, I have always observed the nearly continuous development pressure, for more housing & businesses. This is the nature of the desirability of California, & the Bay Area, & Sebastopol. It's part of what gives this area it's vitality & energy. Surely, we wouldn't want to build a wall around Sebastopol, would we?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
So your point is that the left hand turn is the problem, not CVS?
CVS is also a problem, both for how they dealt with the city and their evil corporate past, and just the notion of having a corporate big box (or medium, in this case) as part of our downtown.
Yes, Whole Foods is also downtown, but they got there as a result of a buyout.
Thanks to John's, and the rest of the council's, efforts, the building isn't all that bad. The building and the traffic impacts have been the most important aspects for me.
At this point, I'm ready to bury the hatchet and I think the community should, too. As Diane points out, the battle is over and there are other more worthy issues to attend to (although I support the hotel project).
Still, I don't intend to shop there, though, but I'm not going to protest it.
What I do think is worthy, though, is holding them to being a good corporate citizen by supporting the various community-based initiatives that rely on business donations. This goes for other corporate businesses, as well. I'd like to see people/organizations post when they have approached the corporate branches for contributions and report what they gave (or didn't). I believe CVS has not given back to our community much.
Regarding traffic issues around the plaza and WF, I think the biggest problem there is the slow throughput caused by the hard right turn at Main Street. I think we should explore easing that corner (ie removing the "point") to improve traffic flow:
https://www.WaccoBB.net/forums/wacco...3_19-22-03.png
Of course, the sidewalk, crosswalks and signal would need to be re-relocated. The WF cross walk, Laguna Parkway, and the South East crosswalk also interrupt traffic, but if traffic could flow more easily when it is time for it to flow, I think it would help alot.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
What I do think is worthy, though, is holding them to being a good corporate citizen by supporting the various community-based initiatives that rely on business donations. This goes for other corporate businesses, as well. I'd like to see people/organizations post when they have approached the corporate branches for contributions and report what they gave (or didn't). I believe CVS has not given back to our community much....
great idea Barry to ask people to post when a local business steps up and donates to the community.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
Funny how photolite says exactly the same as what I have been saying over several posts and gets a thumbs up from Barry right away, same as Shepherd who chastised me, gets a thumbs up, as he tried to single me out as a one person conspirator for mentioning the WF mess.
Maybe that's how the old boys network works on this site..
What a bummer you feel that way. For a few years now Barry has politely and sincerely answered every idiotic question I asked and helped me maneuver this site. He's professional, personable and extremely fast to respond.
Margot
Frog Flats Ranch
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I agree! JH
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by thea71096:
What a bummer you feel that way. For a few years now Barry has politely and sincerely answered every idiotic question I asked and helped me maneuver this site. He's professional, personable and extremely fast to respond.
Margot
Frog Flats Ranch
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Margot, I'm glad to hear that Barry helps you out, but that was not what my post was about.
My sentiment is about how I'm being marginalized by old timers like Shepherd and Ross because I point out the fallacies in John's thinking and actions. That's seems to be a no-no, time to circle the wagons on this site.
Shepherd identified me as a lone observer of WF problems, I knew I wasn't but Barry and others showed Gratitude for that post.
Isn't it funny how Barry has now started a new thread with the title;
Improving traffic flow by Whole Foods
wonder were he got that idea, from Shepherd maybe....
If you go to that thread, you'll see that John (who ignored my previous questions for him) responds, Shepherd responds and probably more of the old boys clan will.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by thea71096:
What a bummer you feel that way. For a few years now Barry has politely and sincerely answered every idiotic question I asked and helped me maneuver this site. He's professional, personable and extremely fast to respond.
Margot
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
John, I know you wont reply to me but I'm writing this more for the greater good of Sebastopol.
The way to solve the L-turn into CVS would be simple. Right now, John being the most active in bringing down CVS, is petitioning for a complete ban into CVS or any other future store. A physical barrier would make that feasible. The reason that it would make the traffic flow better is a fallacy. The problem that it doesn't address is the strange lane change that follows where you think you're going straight up Bodega, but then it turns out you're stuck in the L-turn lane onto Main. My proposal would make the traffic flow better in all lanes.
By not allowing a right turn onto Petaluma ave, and directing the traffic to McKinley before Petaluma Ave via Morris or Depot or Barlow, It takes traffic off of 12 and the CVS intersection.
You end up with TWO lanes, the right lane would be for straight to Bodega traffic, the left lane would be for left turns into Barnes AND Main street.
To see CVS fail, would also mean other stores there will fail. Is that in the best interest of Sebastopol?
Think about it John, are you interested in what's good for Sebastopol in the long run or what's good for you in the short run in getting back at CVS?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by John Eder:
Terriann,
Regarding your question about left turns into/out of the CVS project from/on to Highway 12:
The Mitigated Negative Declaration/Initial Study for the CVS project incorporates the AECOM (traffic engineering consultants) Transportation Impact Study, dated March 16, 2011. This study was commissioned and adopted by the Sebastopol City Council immediately preceding the one upon which I served.
The report discusses the intersection of Barnes Avenue (herein referred to as “the driveway”) and Sebastopol Avenue (Highway 12), concluding on Page 32: “
Thus, it is recommended that a right-in/right-out restriction for the Project driveway on Sebastopol Avenue be implemented.”
It further states, “
The recommended right-in/right-out restriction on Sebastopol Avenue driveway can be implemented through physical barriers and traffic channelizing devices such as barrier wall systems, wide raised medians, non-traversable curb islands, and traversable raised curb systems. For example, a barrier wall system can be implemented between opposing travel lanes on Sebastopol Avenue in order to restrict left turns into and out of the driveway. Barrier wall systems are effective for deterring violations, but the driveway can also be designed with a channelizing concrete island to further deter left-in/left-out turns.”
It concludes that,
“A barrier wall system would create a barrier between westbound and eastbound on Sebastopol Avenue, which would restrict westbound vehicles from crossing over to the eastbound travel lanes in order to make a left turn into the driveway. Similarly, the barrier would restrict northbound vehicles from making a left turn out of the driveway. The concrete island would restrict maneuverability to allow entry/exit from/to the eastbound direction.”
Caltrans submitted a letter to the City of Sebastopol on September 20, 2012 that agreed with the need to place a restriction on left turns at this location. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I think this is a terrible idea. Left turns on busy highways without a turn lane? And most local drivers coming west on 12 turning north already take the alternative routes.
Please take critique of your ideas and people not responding to you a little less seriously. The only person with any real power here is barry, and the worst he can do is kick you off, not a big deal and some would say a badge of honor! I for one welcome your participation on waccobb.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
John, I know you wont reply to me but I'm writing this more for the greater good of Sebastopol.
The way to solve the L-turn into CVS would be simple. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Ross, the lane would be the L-Turn lane, just like it it is right now turning onto Main.
I'm irked by the hypocrisy of some lost sheep...
Im just an Ol' Foole, Ross
I thought this site was more for diversity, but me thinks it's more about follow the leader
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
I think this is a terrible idea. Left turns on busy highways without a turn lane? ....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I rarely use 12 to get into town. I come down Healdsburg and go back on Petaluma or Bodega. So yesterday night I decided to check it out and see what the problem is. With the streets empty it is plain to see for everybody what the problem is!
From John; "It should be noted that there is no center turn (or “refuge”) lane at this location, as there is serving the businesses immediately east of it. "
Let me repeat that; It should be noted that there is no center (left) turn lane , as there is serving the businesses immediately east of it.
WOW, go out there and see for yourself the hypocrisy from people blaming CVS for the traffic problems. If the L-turn (refuge) were to be extended only a few yards there would be no problem! Why should Benedetti and all the other businesses benefit from a refuge lane and CVS not? To focus only on putting up a barrier to Barnes is like spreading Trumpian, self-serving disinformation.
Not only does it create a dangerous situation from people wondering how to get to CVS, it's a mockery of what is in the best interest and safety of Sebastopol in the long run.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by John Eder:
...
Caltrans submitted a letter to the City of Sebastopol on September 20, 2012 that agreed with the need to place a restriction on left turns at this location.
At present, no indicators (signs, pavement markings, etc.) have been installed on westbound Highway 12 that left turns into the project are not allowed. A “No Left Turn” sign and a “Right Turn Only” pavement marking have been installed on Barnes Avenue where it intersects Highway 12.
It should be noted that there is no center turn (or “refuge”) lane at this location, as there is serving the businesses immediately east of it. Therefore, all left turn movements into/out of Barnes Avenue are from/into the westbound traffic lanes....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Hmmm. Interesting observation indeed.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
...
Let me repeat that; It should be noted that there is no center (left) turn lane , as there is serving the businesses immediately east of it.
WOW, go out there and see for yourself the hypocrisy from people blaming CVS for the traffic problems. If the L-turn (refuge) were to be extended only a few yards there would be no problem! Why should Benedetti and all the other businesses benefit from a refuge lane and CVS not?....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
It's not that simple. The current center turn lane stops far enough back for about 16 cars to be in a 2nd lane and be ready to turn left on Main street at the following intersection. If the center turn lane was extended so that people could turn left into CVS, there would be room for about 8 cars. Maybe Caltrans, or whoever is responsible for this intersection, thinks there is a capacity issue for traffic moving through the intersection. I can imagine gridlock where the cars wanting to turn left on Main back up through the Petaluma Avenue intersection and block the single lane that allows cars to go straight through or right on Petaluma Avenue.
Caltrans might have guidelines, but a traffic engineer could figure it out.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
...Let me repeat that; It should be noted that there is no center (left) turn lane , as there is serving the businesses immediately east of it.
WOW, go out there and see for yourself the hypocrisy from people blaming CVS for the traffic problems. If the L-turn (refuge) were to be extended only a few yards there would be no problem! ...
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Rekarp, I have to refer you to my previous post, where I suggested to prohibit a right turn onto Petaluma.
If you watch the traffic flow coming from 12, you'll see that the right turn onto Petaluma is what's causing most of the delays NOT the L turn!
"My proposal would make the traffic flow better in all lanes.
By not allowing a right turn onto Petaluma ave, and directing the traffic to McKinley before Petaluma Ave via Morris or Depot or Barlow, It takes traffic off of 12 and the CVS intersection.
You end up with TWO lanes, the right lane would be for straight to Bodega traffic, the left lane would be for left turns into Barnes AND Main street."
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rekarp:
It's not that simple. ...
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Are you suggesting that traffic be routed through the Barlow?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
...
By not allowing a right turn onto Petaluma ave, and directing the traffic to McKinley before Petaluma Ave via Morris or Depot or Barlow, It takes traffic off of 12 and the CVS intersection....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
Karp, Traffic for the Barlow through the Barlow, it was so wonderfully designed for that.....
Traffic for Whole Foods/downtown could be diverted through Morris.
Traffic for the Hotel/ Mimi could use Depot or maybe Brown
This would take a lot of traffic of that intersection and make it safer too.
What is your suggestion, Rekarp?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rekarp:
Are you suggesting that traffic be routed through the Barlow?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
So Barlow traffic can already use Morris. If Whole Foods and downtown traffic turns right on Morris, would they go through the Barlow, or go Laguna Park Way past the police station and take a right at Whole Foods?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
...Traffic for Whole Foods/downtown could be diverted through Morris....
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
What is your suggestion rekarp?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rekarp:
So Barlow traffic can already use Morris. If Whole Foods and downtown traffic turns right on Morris, would they go through the Barlow, or go Laguna Park Way past the police station and take a right at Whole Foods?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I'm just trying to figure out if your idea is better than what we have right now. I don't think it's a good idea to route non-Barlow traffic through the Barlow.
Until the bridge is complete, it's hard to say exactly how bad the traffic problem will be.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Bob2:
What is your suggestion rekarp?
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
If you look at a Google map, you'll see hat there is an actual street after Morris and before Depot. It has no name but is on the map. It looks like the Barlow has confiscated this public thoroughfare, maybe John can educate us on the history. This would be my ideal entrance to WF if it is public domain. I remember it as a wide back alley for trucks back in the days . It really is all in the sign posting and the Barlow should welcome traffic through there, it's good for business! :wink:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rekarp:
I'm just trying to figure out if your idea is better than what we have right now. I don't think it's a good idea to route non-Barlow traffic through the Barlow.
Until the bridge is complete, it's hard to say exactly how bad the traffic problem will be.
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Re: How CVS Conned Sebastopol
I frequently turn right on Morris to go to Whole foods - misses all the town center congestion.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rekarp:
So Barlow traffic can already use Morris. If Whole Foods and downtown traffic turns right on Morris, would they go through the Barlow, or go Laguna Park Way past the police station and take a right at Whole Foods?
