Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
The Sebastopol City Council is having a public hearing on a proposed ordinance regulating the establishment of chain or formula businesses. This is important! If it were in place we would not have had to battle CVS! However it is also tricky. How do you define a formula business? Is Copperfields (with its several locations) a formula business?? Do we want some (ie auto parts?) but not others? Should they be limited to certain parts of the town? Please send your comments to the council or better yet, attend the meeting and have your voice heard!
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Uh oh.
What about (gasp!) Whole Foods?
Every gas station except Fast Gas?
Safeway, Lucky, Rite Aid, Starbucks, Subway, Baskin Robins, O'Reilly Auto Parts, Mary's Pizza Shack, Hopmonk, 7-Eleven?
All must submit themselves to the tribunal for examination and an appropriate period of self-flagellation.
In other news: Apple Trees Restaurant has a for rent sign in the window. Who is to blame?
:worship::Dominatrix::Yinyangv:
07-05-2015, 05:45 AM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
The shops that are already there would be able to remain, including CVS in the Redwood Shopping Center.
Describing a small town discussion about what would meet the needs of our people--rather than the needs of corporations--as a "tribunal for examination and...self-flagellation" is insulting. Such a discussion is at the heart of democracy.
We should not expect to agree. But attempting to silence those who differ with one's own opinions with such language is not helpful. I have shopped at most of the places mentioned below, at one time or another, during my 24 years living here. They do not need to go, in my opinion. The issue is how do we grow, as we head into a rapidly changing world. GoLocal!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole:
Uh oh.
What about (gasp!) Whole Foods?
Every gas station except Fast Gas?
Safeway, Lucky, Rite Aid, Starbucks, Subway, Baskin Robins, O'Reilly Auto Parts, Mary's Pizza Shack, Hopmonk, 7-Eleven?
All must submit themselves to the tribunal for examination and an appropriate period of self-flagellation.
In other news: Apple Trees Restaurant has a for rent sign in the window. Who is to blame?
:worship::Dominatrix::Yinyangv:
07-06-2015, 08:17 AM
lindasw
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
How about "limiting" the amount of non-organic vineyards, boutique wineries and wine tasting rooms in this town? How about addressing the housing issues--lack of affordable housing, exorbitant rents and the fact that the real estate empires are allowed to set the pricing for outrageous home and properties, both for sales and for rentals? Pushing 31 flavors and taco bell out of town is not nearly as reprehensible as ignoring the Marin-ization of Sebastopol, where renters are now second- class citizens and our children who grew up here are unable to afford to stay.
Tossing out/blocking big chain stores seems frivolous by comparison to what our town (and county) has become in this housing crisis. Pretty soon, those people who pour your daily lattes, prepare your hot bar breakfasts and stock your beloved organic produce will be sleeping in their cars because they cannot afford to continue living in the town they have grown up in, or raised their families in and work in. The lure of quick weekend bucks with AirB&B, trendy little vacation rentals that used to be cottages for rent, rich east coast executives and dot Com kids scooping up any and all properties for "investments" seems like a greater crisis than blocking another non-local business from coming in.
We should be actively rallying for rent control in Sebastopol...and all of the lucky hipster homeowners who have succumbed to the current level of greed need to self-examine their levels of consciousness and activism..and, which of you beloved WF shoppers would even DREAM of trying or wanting to run your favorite addiction out of town on a rail? Riggght......chain stores are the least of the current, bigger problems in our formerly quaint little town, folks. Please wake up to the needs of your neighbors, friends and fellow activists...
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
The shops that are already there would be able to remain, including CVS in the Redwood Shopping Center...
07-06-2015, 10:21 AM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
From reading the following article in today's PD and the mean, anti-Sebastopol online responses, I am concerned that there will not be enough people at this Tuesday's City Council meeting at the Youth Annex to support our courageous City Council members on this necessary step. Please come. This is a very reasonable proposal that has been carefully thought-out.
Sebastopol city officials appear close to finalizing a new ordinance designed to prevent cookie-cutter retail and business establishments from taking root in their town, a place with a distinctive personality they’re trying to maintain.
Part of a yearlong effort that reflects, in part, widespread bitterness over the intransigence of drugstore giant CVS, whose plans for a downtown store resulted in a long-running legal battle finally being settled last year, the new ordinance has been in development over the past several months by the city Planning Commission, with council input.
It’s slated to go back before the council Tuesday night.
But so far, there’s been little engagement on the part of local residents, who, one critic argues, could find their access to low-cost goods limited if a sweeping version of the new rule is applied.
Bay Area attorneys John McNellis and Michael Powers, owners of the Redwood Marketplace shopping center on Gravenstein Highway, say the “formula” for most large national chains is discount pricing.
Applying a new rule throughout the city — rather than just downtown, where, McNellis said, “it can do some good” — might eventually force lower-income consumers to go elsewhere to shop, they said.
Given the lack of participation so far by voters, McNellis also wondered what was driving the effort beyond the fact that “it’s a fashionable movement across the country.”
There has, so far, been no outward demand for new restrictions from the public, he asserted.
But Councilman Robert Jacob said the council for many years has discussed limiting formula businesses, a practice that gained popularity with the advent of “big-box stores” that can outprice small businesses through high-volume sales.
Under then-mayor Michael Kyes, who died last year, the council in 2013 unanimously approved an interim moratorium on formula businesses that has since expired.
Jacobs said he wants to protect locally owned businesses that give back to their communities through support and sponsorship of city programs from being driven out of business. He said corporate retailers take money out of the community and deliver profits to Wall Street.
“For me, personally, I’m concerned about economy strippers and those businesses that close our local, small independent businesses,” he said.
A draft ordinance scheduled for a public hearing Tuesday night would restrict development of new formula restaurants, service or retail outlets throughout the city, defined as those with standardized features that make them “substantially identical to twenty-five or more other businesses in the United States.”
The interim moratorium and an earlier draft of the ordinance defined formula businesses as those having 10 or more similar establishments. Planning Director Kenyon Webster said it was loosened to accommodate regional retailers like Mary’s Pizza, which has 20 locations, and Sole Desire shoes, which has more than a dozen but was permitted in downtown Sebastopol under the interim measure because the stores are distinct in design.
“Standardized features” would include things like signage, decor, uniforms, color schemes, menus and trademarks, as well as a “standardized array” of services or in-store merchandise, at least 50 percent of which are from a single distributor with uniform markings, the ordinance states.
The ordinance would prohibit new formula restaurants in the city’s “downtown core,” a carefully defined area that includes the city center, the Barlow marketplace and events center, and several retail centers near downtown. It extends from Morris Street and the city limits on the east to Pitt Avenue and High street on the west.
The proposal would give the city additional discretion by requiring use permits for formula businesses in the downtown area that are not otherwise prohibited, and for such businesses outside the downtown larger than 5,000 square feet.
Offices, banks, gas stations, hotels and motels would be exempt from the ordinance.
There also would be exemptions for projects under 5,000 square feet located outside the downtown business core; projects already approved or developed; renovations of existing businesses, including expansion by as much as 15 percent or 1,500 square feet; and construction required to comply with fire, safety or disability access codes.
The challenge, said Jacob, is to devise rules that keep out chain restaurants, drugstores and other establishments that might jeopardize the downtown’s unique culture and put existing, locally owned businesses at risk — without thwarting economic growth.
He said the council has to determine, “what is the sweet spot for our community? What are the details of the ordinance that will most preserve our downtown core in a way that doesn’t stifle business?”
Tuesday’s council meeting starts at 6 p.m. at the Sebastopol Youth Annex, 425 Morris St.
You can reach Staff Writer Mary Callahan at 521-5249 or[email protected]. On Twitter @MaryCallahanB.
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by lindasw:
How about "limiting" the amount of non-organic vineyards, boutique wineries and wine tasting rooms in this town? How about addressing the housing issues--lack of affordable housing, exorbitant rents and the fact that the real estate empires are allowed to set the pricing for outrageous home and properties, both for sales and for rentals? Pushing 31 flavors and taco bell out of town is not nearly as reprehensible as ignoring the Marin-ization of Sebastopol, where renters are now second- class citizens and our children who grew up here are unable to afford to stay.
Tossing out/blocking big chain stores seems frivolous by comparison to what our town (and county) has become in this housing crisis....
it's not 'the' solution but it's still worth doing. Your other points are the main ones, though. Turning us into Oxnard isn't any solution. The quote about the chains' formula being low prices is right; they drive the prices down, which seems good, by driving costs (meaning mostly wages and benefits) down even farther - because of course the profits don't go down. It just furthurs the descent into a new feudal age. This isn't just here - rents are ridiculous even in places not being gentrified, wages are pathetic, benefits aren't common any more, "job security" is a weird historical phrase that won't be part of the language much longer. It's worth opposing those businesses that are designed to turn their employees into easily-replaced commodities. The trends that make those the most "successful" types of businesses are just wrong; the fact that they're considered "successful" means we as a culture don't measure success correctly. The parts of our culture that oppose such businesses are worth supporting, because that's where any real change will come from. Remember (well, not personally..) Manifest Destiny? God putting nature there for our exploitation?? Ideas like those were taken for granted as obvious. Hopefully the current views on what makes a successful business, or a good employee, will fade into history as well.
07-07-2015, 12:05 PM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Helen Shane just sent out the following, which includes some important talking points, for those of you who might come tonight. Please do consider coming. It is an important public hearing.
Formula Business Ordinance, Important Council Meeting Tonight
Tuesday, July 7, 6 pm., Youth Annex, Morris St.
I urge you to attend tonight.
There is more than the character and history of our town at stake in the passage or defeat of the Formula Business ordinance to be discussed here.
While it’s not part of the framework for such an ordinance, nor can it be, you should ask yourself this question:
Where do the profits from Formula Businesses go? Do they go to their corporate headquarters,located anywhere but in Sebastopol, or even in Sonoma County,
or,
as is the case in locally owned businesses, be banked in town, spent in town and support local community organizations.
So support of the Formula Business Ordinance is more than aesthetics, or character; it’s hard- nosed good business practice to support local, remain and retain local, to buy and sell local and support the local economy.
No formula or chain business presently in town will be displaced. We’re talking about the future.
The provisions of the ordinance as presented tonight have been court tested. They are, as the legal folks say, defensible.
If you want to protect our history and maintain our character, which have undoubtedly led you to either stay or settle here, come to the meeting and speak your piece. And, not incidentally, you might mention the need to support our local economy, too.
See you there.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
The Sebastopol City Council is having a public hearing on a proposed ordinance regulating the establishment of chain or formula businesses. This is important! If it were in place we would not have had to battle CVS! However it is also tricky. How do you define a formula business? Is Copperfields (with its several locations) a formula business?? Do we want some (ie auto parts?) but not others? Should they be limited to certain parts of the town? Please send your comments to the council or better yet, attend the meeting and have your voice heard!
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
My problems with this proposal are how much bureaucratic dancing there needs to be to make it effective (in the eyes of its authors) and its fundamental tenant, which is to ban things that are perfectly legal in the name of preserving a construct that has already been compromised. The first comparison that came to my mind was abortion clinics. While perfectly legal, many states have made them almost impossible to get, limiting choice in the most profound way possible.
Apparently we are all comfortable with the existing amount of corporate profits (and tax revenue) our town generates, but not one penny more. How many of you beautiful people would object to an Apple® store opening up down there at the corner of Wabi-Sabi and Blight (where CVS wanted to build their new store)? Be honest.:wink:
Is this about the construction of new buildings? Fine, make them adhere to whatever architectural covenants you think define our town (and I really look forward to reading those), limit signage, whatever, but make it consistent across the formula/non-formula spectrum.
If this is about "new" businesses, is it about "formula" businesses that want to open in a space that used to house a previous "formula" business? Foster's Freeze comes to mind. Or the capitalist aggression
of Sebastopol ACE® Hardware into two adjoining storefronts, driving the poor Video Store into its current tiny space.
If the Mary's Pizza Shack chain grows to 35 locations, what happens then? It has exceeded the success cap and must therefore apply for an indulgence from the rulers. If Pepsico buys the Mary's chain, what happens then? "Well, they're grandmothered in, nothing we can do".
The local shopping center type properties seem made for various franchises and chain stores and I think more of them in those locations are fine, and to ban them in favor of "local" business seems both capricious and dumb. They're convenient, but butt ugly and no amount of mom-and-pop is gonna change that.
As for the well-intentioned idea of keeping the profits generated in our town spent in our town, will there be some kind of litmus test as to the residence of the owners of these "local" businesses? How far away is too far away? Bodega Bay? Santa Rosa? San Francisco? Los Angeles? Where are they spending the money they're making off of us? You know where Barney Aldridge's company is based??? Ross! That's right! Ross! Whatta prick!
This purity business gets pretty tedious, huh? There's diversity and "diversity", I guess.
I'm all for keeping it local wherever I can, and try to support local business over the chains, but locally sourced AA batteries have been really hard to find.
:fairy::seb::heart:
07-07-2015, 02:56 PM
Mindful Negotiator
Limiting chains/formula business: focus on use and synergies, not business organization
I'm praying that Sebastopol's very real and precious higher awareness prevents this discussion from devolving into a falsely-split, destructive debate. For the community to thrive in harmony, it should remain a conversation.
For the better part of a century, the vitality of downtown centers grew from a balance of locally-owned businesses and the mega-stores of the day (Like Woolworth, for example, whose demise was mourned by many who hate chain stores; looking at that contradiction is worthwhile). Locals provided leadership and deep knowledge of community, while the chain-store anchors maintained continuity of a broad customer attraction. This integrated, synergistic, organic phenomena was largely swept away by the development of suburbs and regional malls in the 1950's and 1960's. It's taken half a century for most downtown districts to recover. Many have not.
Of the downtown centers that were reborn, many did so while remaining unique and true to their histories and denizens. Places as diverse as Charleston and San Luis Obispo rejuvenated and maintained their unique sense of place in part by inviting carefully selected large retailers into the matrix, with the advice and consent of the community. Studying the records of success stories like these is both instructive and heartening.
Be cautious about labeling and judging. Look for synergies among property uses that are compatible with community interests and values. Support diversity and avoid one-dimensional paths, such as the loathsome wine bar Disneyland that Napa has become.
I am very grateful to see the hard work done by the city and community on these issues. I'm grateful for the intense if sharply divided commentary on these pages. What I'm hoping for is that the spirit of collaboration, imbued with authentic open-mindedness, may guide our actions tonight and in future.
07-07-2015, 04:28 PM
Sara S
Re: Limiting chains/formula business: focus on use and synergies, not business organizatio
All this is really good, and this description especially rocks:
"the loathsome wine bar Disneyland that Napa has become"
Love it!
07-08-2015, 07:50 AM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
I was at the first hour of last night's public hearing on the ordinance and then left for the Farmer's Guild's Olympics down the road at the Sebastopol Grange--lots of fun. I hope some of you who stayed could report on what else happened.
Most of the seats were taken. Mayor Patrick Slayter started the meeting by clarifying that the media's use of the term "ban" to describe the proposed regulation is inaccurate. It seeks to "create restrictions and procedural requirements regarding specified 'formula' businesses," according to Planning Department Director Kenyon Webster. Vice Mayor Sarah Gurney added that the PD report that there has been a "yearlong" discussion was inaccurate. This issue has been discussed at public hearings and elsewhere for over two and a half years, including regarding CVS Pharmacy's desire to locate itself in downtown Sebastopol.
One of the highlights of the meeting was when City Councilmember Robert Jacob criticized the Council for not permitting Amy's Kitchen to move to town. So they went elsewhere. He advocated finding "a sweet spot" for such businesses.
The media also quoted some as contending that the benefit of corporations such as Wal-Mart is that they provide cheap goods. Magik and Patricia Dines responded that the external costs of those cheap products includes the child labor and low wages in countries where they are made. In Bangladesh factories making clothing have burned down, due to unsafe conditions, resulting the hundreds of women workers dying. They focused their comments on ethics.
07-08-2015, 01:19 PM
authenticeye
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
...Just to dovetail on what Shepherd provided; it was later clarified by council member Robert Jacob that the Amy's Kitchen restaurant project had the option of appealing the initial decision but chose not to. I suggest reviewing the meeting's video and find his exact quote to this element as I feel it is important that the public understands it was not a black/white decision that happened; and that had the project appealed the decision they likely would have been accepted.
In the end no vote was made but there was a unanimous opinion from the board to extend the ordinance to the whole of Sebastopol - from city limit to city limit. Which is great in my opinion - our town needs to begin to heal the divisive split in the town - the north side, the south side, downtown; for me it's about caring for the whole of Sebastopol and her future. Also they are considering exemptions on the four existing shopping centers; which makes sense.
The owner of Baskin Robbins was kind enough to share that ultimately the sales saw a decrease with the new presence of many other options in town.
Some other public comments included a concern for having to travel to Santa Rosa to shop at places like Target or Trader Joe's which provide for families of various socio-economic degrees. What these stores offer have value to families in Sebastopol and West County and their concerns were heard by the council.
Overall, the goal was to patch any holes in the ordinance to assure the City Council always had some say in the acceptance of any future proposed formula/chain stores.
There was some verbiage that needed to be edited by city staff, as well as editing the lines around the downtown core [map seemed to have been pre-Barlow]; from there the ordinance will likely have a final vote the next time it appears on the agenda.
:waccosun:
07-10-2015, 03:51 PM
Rustie
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Bravo and thank you Linda! While in all honesty I too would not be happy to see, nor would I encourage, big box/formula stores to be moving into any neighborhood, I wholeheartedly agree with your observations and perspective. The Formula Business Ordinance, in my opinion, is not accomplishing its implied intentions – localizing our economy and preserving our history. Our quaint little town is fast becoming anything but a model of “go-local” values. Maintaining our charm with the proper signage, country-side bike trails, coffee & wine bars, upscale organic restaurants, art studios, chakra tuning, psychic spiritual alignment and crystal shops is not exactly meeting the daily needs of the locals who live and work here. In fact, as Linda accurately pointed out, many who work here cannot afford to live here. Bottom line however, whether you live in town or just work here, is where do you go to purchase your essential goods and services? Most likely you get in your car and drive out of town into RP or SR where there is a Costco, Trader Joe's, Home Depot, Staples or a choice of two shopping malls housing a multitude of nationally owned stores with everything from socks to housewares with “working class” price tags. Net result – a very small portion of our “local” dollars earned are being recirculated locally. We are moving fast and furiously toward “any tourist town USA” and there's nothing local or environmentally friendly in that trajectory.
Albeit, all the quaint locally owned businesses selling overpriced non-essential goods and services will likely do well in Tourist Town Sebastopol but the same question prevails. Where do the profits go? I suspect most of our well-intentioned locals are spending a significant portion of their income on essential goods and services obtained from formula businesses and chain stores. Why do I conclude this? Number one, basic necessities are rarely locally obtainable, and number two, those that are, usually carry a price tag commensurate with the high cost of doing business in our town. Rents, both residential and commercial, are obscene. Job opportunities are next to none. Available work is predominantly low wage service sector positions, and many who work here can't afford to live here. Resultant effect, outsiders are buying up the bulk of our real estate and developing it into enchanting bed & breakfast facilities and tourist friendly wineries, breweries and elegant eateries. The locals, those left, will find themselves catering to the onslaught of sightseers who care little about our charming town and spectacular landscape except to the extent that it services their travel needs while burning massive amounts of oil seeking entertainment on their annual vacations.
Sebastopol's history and character have very little resemblance to what we are actually preserving and creating when putting our attention toward limitations of chain stores and building bike trails. The history of Sebastopol is about farming. We had canneries, mills and a train running through the center of town creating & supporting local commerce. Sebastopol was a full service town complete with a wide range of stores, including Woolworths, addressing the needs of its residents. Where is our local butchery, chicken processing plant, creamery, cannery or mill? These are some of the vital industries necessary to support a go-local economy. Do you think you are buying local when you purchase Rosie's organic chicken from Petaluma Poultry? Think again, then ask yourself why they had to sell out to Perdue, an agribusiness entity that is consuming small farmers across the nation.
Retaining and supporting our local economy takes a great deal more thought and planning than restricting or limiting certain business types within our city limits. Where do the profits go is not the question to ask if you have neglected to build a community that has the ability to be self sufficient. Affordable housing, essential goods and services and efficient public transportation are cornerstones to developing a sustainable community with a strong localized economy. If you do not create a community that has the capacity to provide a local economy that supports the community's residents you have done nothing to keep dollars out of box stores and nationally owned formula businesses. Creating a tourist playground will not localize our economy, preserve our history or reduce our carbon footprint. If these are in fact our community goals it is my opinion that our time, energy and money would be far better spent developing a sustainable infrastructure rather than painting fish on sidewalks.....
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by lindasw:
How about "limiting" the amount of non-organic vineyards, boutique wineries and wine tasting rooms in this town? How about addressing the housing issues--lack of affordable housing, exorbitant rents and the fact that the real estate empires are allowed to set the pricing for outrageous home and properties, both for sales and for rentals? ...
07-10-2015, 03:57 PM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Mayor Patrick Slayter opened Sebastopol City Council’s July 7 public hearing on a proposed ordinance regulating formula businesses by correcting the use of the word “ban” in the media to describe it. “This has never been a discussion about a ban; it has been a multi-year discussion about how to guide development and retain local control.”
The ordinance’s goals include preserving Sebastopol as a “special environment” and to “protect its existing character.” The next step is for the Council to make revisions, based on the public hearing, and introduce it for a tentative decision.
“Any business can apply to the Planning Commission for a use permit. If it has ‘standardized architecture, color schemes, decor and signage,’ according to the ordinance draft, it may not be accepted,” explained City Manager/Attorney Larry McLaughlin.
“A business willing to customize itself to Sebastopol could be accepted. The application is reviewed, weighing its various elements, to determine whether enough of the characteristics of a formula business are present.” That determines whether “the business is, or is not, the type which the ordinance seeks to prevent,” McLaughlin added. Applications are considered on a case-by-case, individual basis.
The City intends to “create restrictions and procedural requirements regarding specified ‘formula’ businesses,” explained Planning Director Kenyon Webster.
Vice Mayor Sarah Gurney noted that public discussions and hearings have occurred over the last two and a half years. An interim ordinance was agreed upon in 2013.
Councilmember Robert Jacob lamented a previous City decision not to permit Amy’s Kitchen from locating in Sebastopol. He described that unique restaurant and was sorry that it went elsewhere. Jacob advocated helping find “a sweet spot” for it, as well as other businesses that would benefit Sebastopol.
Those opposing the pending ordinance contended that regulating cookie-cutter businesses, such as CVS Pharmacy, would reduce options to purchase lower-cost products.
Bay Area attorney John McNellis, co-owner of the Redwood Marketplace shopping center on the edge of town, testified. He noted that Chase and West America banks recently left that center, as did Baskin Robbins ice cream. “We now have three spaces for lease,” he reported.
McNellis added that if Lucky’s supermarket left the center, it would be a serious loss. He said that 1/3rd of Sebastopol residents make under $35,000 a year and depend on markets like Lucky’s and Safeway. The ordinance would apply only to new businesses.
Patricia Dines and Magick Altman spoke about ethics. They described the external costs of products, such as the child labor and low wages paid workers in countries where such products are made for corporations like Wal-Mart. Clothing made in Bangladesh’s unsafe factories, for example, have resulted in hundreds of women workers dying in fires.
Whereas the interim ordinance had a 10-establishment threshold, the current proposal prohibits businesses with more than 25 locations, except in shopping centers. This change accommodates small regional businesses, such as Sole Desire, a shoe store with 15 establishments, and Mary’s Pizza Shack, which has 20 establishments. Exemptions include formula businesses under 5,000 square feet outside the downtown.
“Councilmembers have a responsibility to protect the assets of our community,” noted Una Glass. “Sebastopol's biggest asset is its unique character and small town feel. This draws people and commerce to our community. At issue is how to protect this asset.”
At this week’s free weekly Wednesday summer concerts in Ives Park, Glass described the ordinance as “a reasonable compromise that can permit chain stores in shopping centers.”
07-10-2015, 06:24 PM
scamperwillow
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Thank goodness we don 't live surrounded by all that stuff! I don't think people live in sebastopol to be surrounded by big box chain stores. People that like that should live in Rohnert Park or Santa Rosa. Me, I love the town the way it is!
By the way, our own Sebastopol Hardware has started carrying socks and housewares and all kinds of other stuff.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
Most likely you get in your car and drive out of town into RP or SR where there is a Costco, Trader Joe's, Home Depot, Staples or a choice of two shopping malls housing a multitude of nationally owned stores with everything from socks to housewares with “working class” price tags. .
07-11-2015, 08:57 AM
Rustie
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
You have completely missed the point Marty. The concept is not that we should be surrounded by big box chain stores but rather that we need to build a locally sustainable infrastructure if we are genuinely attempting to localize our economy.
By the way, Sebastopol Hardware is a retailers co-op. The store owners are members of their national wholesale supplier, in this case Ace. The Ace Hardware Corporation is located in Oakbrook Illinois and currently takes in over $3 billion a year wholesaling merchandise to its members. This would suggest that when you are buying your socks and housewares at our “own Sebastopol Hardware”, you are sending a substantial chunk of your money to Illinois.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:
Thank goodness we don 't live surrounded by all that stuff! I don't think people live in sebastopol to be surrounded by big box chain stores. People that like that should live in Rohnert Park or Santa Rosa. Me, I love the town the way it is!
By the way, our own Sebastopol Hardware has started carrying socks and housewares and all kinds of other stuff.
07-11-2015, 08:40 PM
gypsey
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
As a retailers co-op, then I presume that in addition to local jobs, Ace Hardware also provides profits to local co-op members. So what's the issue?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
...By the way, Sebastopol Hardware is a retailers co-op. ...
07-12-2015, 07:28 AM
Shandi
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Just wondering if you ever go to Rohnert Park or Santa Rosa's big box chain stores for things that you can't find in Sebastopol? Do you find that Sebastopol stores are affordable for your income, with no need to go elsewhere? What stores do you frequent the most in Sebastopol for food and non-food items?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:
Thank goodness we don 't live surrounded by all that stuff! I don't think people live in sebastopol to be surrounded by big box chain stores. People that like that should live in Rohnert Park or Santa Rosa. Me, I love the town the way it is!
By the way, our own Sebastopol Hardware has started carrying socks and housewares and all kinds of other stuff.
07-12-2015, 07:38 AM
Shandi
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
"Truth" always shatters our illusions, but I always appreciate it! Thank you Rustie, for sharing your wisdom.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
You have completely missed the point Marty. The concept is not that we should be surrounded by big box chain stores but rather that we need to build a locally sustainable infrastructure if we are genuinely attempting to localize our economy.
By the way, Sebastopol Hardware is a retailers co-op. The store owners are members of their national wholesale supplier, in this case Ace. The Ace Hardware Corporation is located in Oakbrook Illinois and currently takes in over $3 billion a year wholesaling merchandise to its members. This would suggest that when you are buying your socks and housewares at our “own Sebastopol Hardware”, you are sending a substantial chunk of your money to Illinois.
07-12-2015, 10:06 AM
Barry
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
...By the way, Sebastopol Hardware is a retailers co-op. The store owners are members of their national wholesale supplier, in this case Ace. The Ace Hardware Corporation is located in Oakbrook Illinois and currently takes in over $3 billion a year wholesaling merchandise to its members. This would suggest that when you are buying your socks and housewares at our “own Sebastopol Hardware”, you are sending a substantial chunk of your money to Illinois.
This is going to be the case ("sending a substantial chunk of your money to" someplace else) for any retailer that sells non-locally made products, including Community Market and Copperfields.
07-12-2015, 10:17 AM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
I want to echo what sealwatcher says. I consider Sebastopol Hardware to be a real community asset. They contribute a lot to making Sebastopol what it is. For example, when Frizelle-Enos burned down, they added to their pet offerings. I support businesses such as this, which are already here. The new ordinance would be case-by-case, so such needed operations could be permitted. In our eagerness to keep out corporations such as Wal-Mart, we should be careful not to demonize all large businesses.
As we challenge the corporate wineries, we need to be careful to support businesses such as the Wine Emporium in downtown Sebastopol and the Sonoma Wine Shop on highway 116 south of town.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:
While our local Ace Hardware store is part of a retail co-op and certainly some percentage of products supplied by Ace returns to Illinois, it is hardly a Costco, Home Depot or Walmart. ...
07-12-2015, 11:28 AM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
After talking at last Wednesday eve's free concert in Ives Park, James Haug of the Wine Emporium and Downtown Association sent the following links to articles in the SF Chronicle about how they are handling limiting chains stores. I also appreciated the side walk sale yesterday that the downtown merchants organized. It was good to see people in the street supporting local stores.
It is not enough to talk about what we oppose; it is important to also be positive and suggest solutions, as GoLocal does. I think that we have a wonderful City Council and appreciate all the good work that they do.
Dear Shepherd,
Great running into you yesterday. I’m glad you have an interest in limiting chain stores in Sebastopol. San Francisco has an ordinance on chain stores.
Here are two SF Chronicle articles about it I read which may be of some help when the city council draws up their regulations.
I’m cc’ing Sarah Gurney on this, too.
Best wishes,
James Haug, The Wine Emporium, Inc, 125 North Main Street, Sebastopol, CA 95472
707-823-5200, www.the-wine-emporium.com
07-12-2015, 08:17 PM
lindasw
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Oh yes! Please! Let's all be sure to support the ongoing Napa/Healdsburg-ization of Sebastopol! More, more, MORE wineries, more unregulated poisons sprayed by the guys in tyvex at 4:30am, MORE vineyards sucking up more of our dwindling water resources! Let's just take out all of the small businesses and the remaining couple of apple orchards and make it All About The Grape! But we will join hands and put on our Activist Hats to fight, fight fight to keep a Wal-Mart or any other non-local, chain businesses from darkening our doorsteps.... I am soooo confused!! But, at the same time, Sadly, I get it...
07-13-2015, 11:49 AM
Jacob Rich
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Ontario was considering a moratorium on Drive Thru's and instead tougher regulations were approved. Article- "The Death of the Drive Thru?". Also from the article, "San Luis Obispo, a city of about 45,000 people on California’s central coast, has banned construction of new drive-thrus since the early 1980s."
07-13-2015, 05:14 PM
Mindful Negotiator
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Here's another interesting lesson from progressive Slotown, as the locals call San Luis Obispo.
In the 1990's, the historic downtown was brilliantly revived by local leadership who saw potential synergies between local merchants and specialty chain stores. This effort was spearheaded by SLO local retailer Tom Copeland, who repositioned a blighted, long-empty department store. The famous SLO Thursday night farmer's market is the primary marketing vehicle for downtown, drawing enormous traffic weekly from all over. It is a true community event, every week.
The downtown revitalization was so successful that the nearby regional mall actually closed, making way for some big box retailers that met regional needs. But these were positioned out on 101, miles away from downtown, where those uses belong.
20 years later, downtown San Luis Obispo is not only thriving, it honors local history, character and values. Local merchants and community spirit dominate the landscape. Rural character and the liberal orientation of a college community helped make these thing happen.
Critically, divergent groups who rarely agreed on policy issues pulled together in this effort. More than anything, their goal was to preserve SLO's unique sense of place, while offering goods and services for the entire community. They succeeded.
07-13-2015, 07:46 PM
podfish
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
Here's another interesting lesson from progressive Slotown, as the locals call San Luis Obispo. .
it's a great example of what can be done. There are significant differences between SLO and Sebastopol, so there will need to be some fresh ideas, but the principles hold true.
Their big difference (I won't call it 'advantage', because we don't know that yet) is that it's the biggest town in the region between Paso Robles and Santa Maria - and really, between Santa Barbara and Salinas. So it's a natural hub and can easily draw people to things like their farmers' markets. Big-boxes work well on 101 because that's the easiest way to serve the area; the extra trip to downtown isn't an asset for those who just want quick discount shopping.
Here, we have a full-fledged city, Santa Rosa, acting as a natural hub for the area's services. Sebastopol will need to mix its roles. It's a little larger than other west-county towns, so it can host services that draw people in, but save them from going into the more crowded city, but more 'charming' than the bigger city so we draw people and activities out from SR. It's a trickier situation but brings some advantages of its own.
07-13-2015, 07:59 PM
Shandi
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Thank you Roger, for sharing this wonderful solution in San Luis Obispo. What a great use of a long vacant dept. store. That's true visionary leadership! Having the energy of the community college was a definite plus.
Positioning big box stores near the freeway makes perfect sense, and that seems to be what we actually have in Petaluma, Rohnert Park, and Santa Rosa. It doesn't seem necessary or practical for Sebastopol to have big box stores. The traffic is difficult already. I'm sure that people who live in Sebastopol don't mind driving to get things they can't get or can't afford at the boutique shops in town.
Seems like Tom Copeland or someone like him would be an excellent advisor/consultant.
07-13-2015, 10:17 PM
authenticeye
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Well, out of curiosity I did some googling about Tom and wanted to share some articles before he gets elevated to high in this discussion.
The Court Street shopping Center tenants in SLO include more national chain stores than small local businesses. There is Aveda, Pottery Barn, Sephora ... etc. In 2013 Mr Copeland sold his properties to a real estate investment company, Jamestown which released him from approx $50million in debt.
From an article written in 2009 he wasn't much of a favorite in town - honestly sounds like an investor Sebastopol is familiar with in a similar light ~ not mentioning names ~ ...
I often visited SLO, even considered living there before I came to know Sebastopol - it's a lovely town and even has one way streets running around their downtown center. So I can speak clearly to the number of national stores that fill their shopping centers and downtown streets...as well appreciate how green they kept their downtown center with trees bordering sitting areas and the beautiful landscaping done along the creek.
So I am left asking, what are the "up and coming" sustainably minded, family supportive next generation stores in our country?
There must be some that would be fitting to invite to Sebastopol....
Let's keep the dreaming alive :waccosun:
07-13-2015, 10:48 PM
Mindful Negotiator
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Thanks for the update. It's hard to condense a twenty-year history in these postings. Tom Copeland re-purposed a single property that was the focal point of the entire downtown at a critical time, more than 20 years ago. He later faced difficulties, but they were mostly caused because his family sporting goods business, which had grown into a regional chain, was put out of business by...Big Box giants like Dick's Sporting Goods.
The comments I made about synergies among local tenants and chain stores in SLO referred to the downtown as whole, not the single property that Tom repositioned. His efforts were instrumental in the creation of a legacy that is remarkable if looked at holistically, despite the remarks of later critics, many of whom have political motivation in casting aspersions (sound familiar?).
I spent nearly 30 years studying commercial landscapes from Maui to Manhattan, and helping animate obsolescent properties as an antidote to development of green spaces. I often mediated tensions and disputes among diverse constituencies who were conflicted about controversial projects. There is an art, and also a science, to doing these things. Commercial success and community welfare are not mutually exclusive; it is possible to achieve both while honoring local values and helping small businesses thrive.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by authenticeye:
Well, out of curiosity I did some googling about Tom and wanted to share some articles before he gets elevated to high in this discussion. ....
07-14-2015, 06:09 AM
Shandi
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Roger, thank you for sharing an intimate perspective that can only be seen from a position of involvement that you had in this situation.
It seems that your extensive experience could be extremely valuable in Sebastopol. Hope you find a way to get involved here, and share your obvious gifts and talents.
07-15-2015, 09:40 AM
Rustie
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
The only Ace coop members are other Ace store owners of which I believe there are none locally other than the one store in Sebastopol. To my understanding there are several other Ace stores throughout the county, not sure if that constitutes “local” for you or this thread. And by the way, all stores in our town, formula or not, are also providing local jobs.
So what's the issue? Clarity – we're talking about restricting formula stores and it is my understanding that one of the purposes of this proposal is to further our efforts to localize our economy. From this view, Ace Hardware is neither a demon nor an angel. Fact: a significant portion of your dollars spent at our local Ace are sent out of state. Additionally, they have only 3 CA distribution centers. The closest one to Sonoma County is 125 miles, the other two are each a little shy of 450 miles away. Most everything you buy off the shelves at our Ace Hardware has traveled a minimum of those distances to get here.
Sealwatcher is correct, Sebastopol Hardware is locally owned but as an Ace member it is a part of and bound by the Ace corporate structure. It's similar to a franchise but they run their operation with some notable differences, in particular they seem not to be as strict regarding store policies and appearances. I believe they are an up front buy-in and they do not collect franchise fees or royalties. The corporation derives its ongoing revenues as a distributor to its retail dealers. Ace has warehouses throughout the US, as I cited above, there are only 3 in CA. It is from these Ace distribution centers that all retail owners purchase and receive their merchandise.
Barry is absolutely correct in pointing out that any merchant stocking their shelves from suppliers outside of our local area are sending a portion of our dollars outside of our community. So the question then becomes what percentage of a retailers inventory is sourced outside of our community, county, state and country? Another important question in my opinion would be how far is the merchandise traveling to get to us?
Please understand, I'm not hitting on Ace, our local store or the corporation, I'm only responding to a comment that appeared to me to have been expressed in ignorance. These observations are not judgments they are relevant facts to the conversation and as such worthy of examination. Is Ace better than Costco? That would depend on what you are trying to accomplish. For instance if you are interested in local jobs my understanding is that Costco pays well above minimum wage, provides excellent health benefits and promotes from the inside. On the other hand they are a publicly traded corporation and their list of top investors is not so appealing. Then again the top investor list of Costco does not look much different then that of Whole Foods, an establishment that I would venture to say takes a significant portion of our local dollars.
It seems to me that what has been lost and/or perhaps never clearly answered is what exactly are our goals? I believe that is it of value to open our eyes and peek behind the curtain if we want to make informed decisions and achieve our visions. However, not until we get clarity on what exactly we are trying to accomplish can we set a plan in motion. What I see, and this is just my opinion, is a lot of mixed messages, hodgepodge concepts and gross contradictions of intentions vs actions.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by gypsey:
As a retailers co-op, then I presume that in addition to local jobs, Ace Hardware also provides profits to local co-op members. So what's the issue?
07-15-2015, 10:00 AM
Mindful Negotiator
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Spot on! Seeking clarity is a beautiful thing. It makes compassion-based solutions possible.
One of my mediation mentors is William Ury, co-author of the legendary negotiation tome Getting to Yes, and its recent sequel, Getting to Yes with Yourself. Bill likes to ask, "Do you want to debate? Or would you rather have a conversation?"
Clarity emerges from compassionate conversations, framed by constructive boundaries and supported by objective evidence about the topic under discussion.
It would be splendid to pull the contributors to these posts together, in real time and space I mean, to promote a safe (constructive and respectful) and informative dialogue about community objectives.
You know, lovely Sebastopol faces enormous changes potentially far more threatening to its unique rural and social lifestyle than a deservedly dreaded CVS, wine bar amusements or "formula" stores. The rapid escalation of home values is driving equally swift demographic change. Sophisticated retail leasing people call this "psychographic transformation." I've seen this happen elsewhere. I've watched community groups skirmish about small things while missing the tidal wave that drowns everyone in its path.
I don't want that to happen to our precious community. Let's have a conversation about clarity.
Thanks, Rustie, for moving me to pen this morning.
07-15-2015, 01:17 PM
Shandi
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Rustie always gets to the details that are mostly overlooked by statements coming from impassioned community members who are fearful of losing what they love and cling to, from the past. This is a complex matter, and I doubt if those who are proposing a ban on "formula" stores, have studied all the various facets.
Isn't Whole Foods a "formula" store that continues to be supported by the community? Is there any store in Sebastopol that only sells items (food or non-foods) that are made locally in Sebastopol, or at least in Sonoma County? I'm not that familiar with the town retailers, so I don't know.
I would propose a questionnaire to determine what most residents seem to want, as an initial way to get some clarity. I do like your idea about coming together to for a "compassionate" conversation, although I also believe there's a benefit to guiding people to think about the issues beforehand.
You would be the perfect person to lead such a gathering. I'd like to know how many would be open to participating in the process you speak of. That way, you'll have an idea if there would be a dozen or 10 dozen participants.
Thank you Roger and Rustie for being assets to this community, among others.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
Spot on! Seeking clarity is a beautiful thing. It makes compassion-based solutions possible. ....
07-15-2015, 04:01 PM
Rustie
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Thank you so much to ask the question and begin the dialog – what does a localized sustainable infrastructure look like? Big question, but the first question that needs to be addressed is what do we want our community to look like when we're finished? If we want a high-end, upper class, white-collar professional community that is quaint and supports all things “local” then in my opinion we just keep traversing the path we are on. Perhaps we would consider some restrictions on tourist related businesses like country-side bike tours, wine tasting facilities, hotels, B&B's and vacation rentals. Short of that however Sebastopol is currently considered one of the top white, yuppie, overpriced communities in the North Bay. Adding restrictions on formula stores may not dramatically reduce the local dollars that leave our pristine town but we will certainly appear to be very local-minded.
If on the other hand our community is seeking to reduce our carbon foot-print, breath life into our current lip-service mantra of “diversity” and support our working class sector, a localized sustainable infrastructure is an all-encompassing social proposition.
If you think of a community or social structure as a part of our natural environment and then superimpose the permaculture model you begin to understand the working relationships and mutual benefits of the whole. I'm no expert nor do I have the answers. I think this is going to take all of us – ideas, skills, knowledge, expertise and most importantly, a willingness to participate.
It appears to me that we would want to begin with our daily life necessities. In my opinion that includes: Food & Water, Fuel & Energy, Transportation, Housing and Essential Goods & Services. Many of these areas overlap in function and envisioning the whole rather than the individual part is necessary to complete the design.
A broad brushstroke picture might begin with rent control, urban farming, public transportation, water reclamation and food & fuel processing. Our city and county need to be providing economic incentives and investing our tax dollars into programs that will encourage and create the necessary infrastructure to localize and sustain. For instance, the millions of dollars that have been proposed for parks and bike paths might be better spent constructing swales throughout our country-side & planting trees in an effort to control erosion and capture water. The reclamation rate of water from a single established tree is astounding. Additionally swales will dramatically recharge our water table and increase our vegetation. Roof top rain catchment could be mandatory with programs to subsidize the implementation costs. We might also consider adopting programs to encourage gray water systems and rethink our sewers.
Our water; where and how we source it, use it and discard it are fundamental elements of our infrastructure. It is of course directly tied to our food. As a society it is the responsibility of us all to wisely manage our water and to let our officials know that water security is among our top priorities.
Obviously food is also a primary element of a sustainable infrastructure. In my opinion, we could do a lot better localizing our sources. To begin with we might consider changing our current in-town zoning to allow for urban farming. This would include the raising of animals. In addition to chickens & rabbits, which I believe are allowed, folks could raise one or two small breed pigs, meat goats, milk goats, or possibly a cow on a larger parcel. This is not the big picture answer but for those who would like to raise their own food we should not be preventing this valuable option with short-sighted zoning and unreasonable laws. If you looked at what could be accomplished with urban neighborhood farming co-ops you would be impressed. Each family does not have to provide entirely for themselves. An organized cooperative effort could increase productivity by working together to grow food for an entire neighborhood. Those folks who lack the interest &/or ability to participate in the direct farming effort could provide alternative resources, skills and services in exchange for their groceries. These are just ideas but in my opinion what absolutely needs to change are the zoning laws that prevent us from implementing our own creative solutions to our current food crisis.
The bigger picture in our food infrastructure is farming. This includes produce, dairy, meats & fish. As I continue to learn about the rise and fall of our local farming industry I begin to see a reoccurring pattern. Short version – we are losing our local ag because we no longer have the necessary support systems to keep this industry alive and in our community. Without our local processing plants our small farmers can not survive. The Barlow promised to house a butchery and creamery. My understanding is that those were points of negotiation when seeking approval for the project. What happened, where are these businesses? They don't exist because the rent at the Barlow is too high. So now we shop and dine at our new Barlow remembering the history of our old Barlow. Sipping our new vine wines we neglect to notice the loss of these fundamental businesses that are essential to a local economy.
This brings us to rent control. As illustrated above exorbitant rents are a determent to encouraging vital businesses as well as reasonable consumer prices. You can keep box stores out but you can't keep local dollars in. If you don't provide essential goods and services at reasonable competitive prices your residents will shop elsewhere. In addition to commercial rents needing to be dramatically curbed so do residential rents. If we continue to price ourselves out of reach to our young and working class members of society we will certainly stagnate. Diversity in age, economics, race, culture, skills and education are necessary if you intend to build a thriving resilient community.
Fuel, energy and transportation are also an integral part of the whole. Sonoma Clean Power has taken a huge leap for us in regards to sourcing our energy. Solar and other renewables are gaining ground. Storage and distribution are becoming the weak link – all in due time – that's an enormous undertaking.
Public transportation in Sebastopol is nothing short of a joke. I'm speechless as to how little attention is directed toward this obvious flaw in our environmentally friendly, go-local movement. How can we take ourselves seriously debating the loss of local dollars to chain stores while we sit stuck in traffic burning petrol-chemicals and lining the pockets of the oil industry, none of which are locally based. What are the options? Provide reliable, efficient public transportation. Electric buses are not a dream – they exist – easily attainable in many sizes and at a variety of cost points.
Another thought might be an alternative fuel. My vote would be ethanol. Consider this – fields of high sugar/starch crops, corn is one example. Use this for your biomass in your ethanol stills. The spent mash is a high value feed for your livestock, easily digestible and more nutritious than hay, grazing or non-fermented grain. The Co2 from the fermentation process can be pumped into a greenhouse to increase plant growth and the heat captured in the process of running your still can be stored in the form of water for later use. The ethanol produced is of course a fuel that can be used in farm equipment, vehicles, buses, and if necessary as a source of heat. All elements of this cycle can be accomplished in our local community.
Bottom line, if we truly want to localize our economy we need to be producing our necessities, right here locally. Food and textile processing plants would be a must and could certainly be located in our Barlow, as they once were. What about the old apple packing/processing plant that now sits mostly vacant? Blacksmiths, welders, cobblers, seamstresses, people with these skills and talents exist and live in our community. Why are we not tapping into our own local resources and creating a real local economy? Tooling up to create something like this would require outsourcing and investment but once the infrastructure is in place we would have a significant jump start toward an actual localized sustainable economy.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:
Rustie, how do you see a locally sustainable infrastructure? Let's conceptualize what that would look like. I've been living in county for forty years and have seen the changes. They started with the building of Warm Springs Dam.
07-15-2015, 07:49 PM
Shandi
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
What a sensible, realistic, intelligent response to an extremely complex matter! I'd love to see you and Roger head up a community conversation, with those who indicate a willingness to participate in this critical dialogue.
As I've mentioned, I don't live in Sebastopol, and have no desire to. It's not my kind of place as a low income senior. I'd just be driving to Rohnert Park or Santa Rosa for needed goods and services. In Rohnert Park, everything I need is within a two mile radius, with good traffic flow and lots of options for getting where I want to go. At this stage of my life, economy and convenience are priorities, along with choices of nature all around me.
After having a business in Hawaii for 12 years, I still prefer Rohnert Park, then returning to Hawaii. It may look like paradise from a distance or on a vacation, but in reality it's far from that. Only those who've lived there would know what I'm talking about. Nice weather and beautiful sunsets don't make up for the highest cost of living combined with lowest wages. Many degreed professionals work 2-3 tourist jobs to survive, and there's an over abundance of massage therapists, healers, etc. just like in Sebastopol, barely surviving.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
Thank you so much to ask the question and begin the dialog – what does a localized sustainable infrastructure look like? ...
07-16-2015, 11:20 PM
nancypreb
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:
People that like that should live in Rohnert Park or Santa Rosa.
Wow. Judgmental much? And we like to not think of ourselves as elitists. I think that people who live in "conscious communities," or any other kind of over glorified hippie condo, should live in Lake County.... or at least anywhere else but near me. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it when you put it that way, does it?! (Btw, I actually have absolutely no issues with Three Acre Wood, but I do have an issue with your attitude towards "People like that," people who are usually poor, struggling, often times of the darker complexion, and of the younger generation.) But I am glad for this...when the subject of bike paths and turning the lumber yard into a live/work development with cute little coffee shops below and apartments above comes around again, I can announce, "Marty Roberts votes 'no' because she 'love(s) the town the way it is!" Thanks for your contribution to the discussion, Marty.
From Barry:
Here's Marty's full quote for reference:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:
Thank goodness we don 't live surrounded by all that stuff! I don't think people live in sebastopol to be surrounded by big box chain stores. People that like that should live in Rohnert Park or Santa Rosa. Me, I love the town the way it is!
Which was in response to this portion of Rustie's post:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
... Most likely you get in your car and drive out of town into RP or SR where there is a Costco, Trader Joe's, Home Depot, Staples or a choice of two shopping malls housing a multitude of nationally owned stores with everything from socks to housewares with “working class” price tags. ....
From Nancy:
Let me help you with providing context Barry.... Rustie's quote was
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
Our quaint little town is fast becoming anything but a model of “go-local” values. Maintaining our charm with the proper signage, country-side bike trails, coffee & wine bars, upscale organic restaurants, art studios, chakra tuning, psychic spiritual alignment and crystal shops is not exactly meeting the daily needs of the locals who live and work here. In fact, as Linda accurately pointed out, many who work here cannot afford to live here. Bottom line however, whether you live in town or just work here, is where do you go to purchase your essential goods and services?.. Most likely you get in your car and drive out of town into RP or SR where there is a Costco, Trader Joe's, Home Depot, Staples or a choice of two shopping malls housing a multitude of nationally owned stores with everything from socks to housewares with “working class” price tags. ...
In other words.... If your daily needs, your essential goods and services, are more than country-side bike trails, coffee & wine bars, upscale organic restaurants, art studios, chakra tuning, psychic spiritual alignment and crystal shops, or you can't afford the price point of Milk & Honey, or Global Village and Karma don't suit your stye or needs, well then, according to Marty, you shouldn't live in Sebastopol. Rustie's point is that our basic goods and services are both limited and cater to the affluent. I'm pointing out the discrimination that some people here have towards those who must seek out "'working class' price tags".... you know, "People like that."
07-16-2015, 11:39 PM
nancypreb
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
The famous SLO Thursday night farmer's market is the primary marketing vehicle for downtown, drawing enormous traffic weekly from all over. It is a true community event, every week.
To bad everyone fought the farmers market being at the Barlow, as was the original conception and plan! Instead, everyone wanted to keep it in the small, little, crowded plaza, a tiny fraction of what the Barlow could have hosted. (Or, some might argue, the needs of one single manager was put before the best interest of the needs of the farmers or the town.)
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
The downtown revitalization was so successful that the nearby regional mall actually closed, making way for some big box retailers that met regional needs. But these were positioned out on 101, miles away from downtown, where those uses belong. 20 years later, downtown San Luis Obispo is not only thriving, it honors local history, character and values. Local merchants and community spirit dominate the landscape. Rural character and the liberal orientation of a college community helped make these thing happen.
Sooo, move box stores out into the boonies, in the rural-turned-commercial areas, so that the "rural character" can remain in the heart of the urban setting. Yeah, that makes total sense! That's not the definition of urban sprawl at all!
I'm clearly failing to see how using SLO as an example is suppose to be helpful for Sebastopolians or Sebastopol.
07-17-2015, 08:17 AM
Mindful Negotiator
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Thanks for pointing out confusion in my description. Let me clarify. In SLO, the box stores were placed in a long-developed zone next to the 101 reeway, not in the "boonies." They replaced the failed regional mall. The better tenants in the mall, both local stores and specialty chains (like apparel shops) moved back downtown, which they had left years before.
The rural portions of central SLO county surround both the areas where the big boxes and downtown are located. While developed and home to a college, SLO retains the elements of a rural community, because it is. Just like Sebastopol. In SLO, the college's historic specialty in agriculture is an important bulwark of agrarian thought and lifestyle, even as it has grown into a diversified modern institution.
A tangential point is that outside of grocery or drug stores, no big box stores are likely to consider Sebastopol for a location. They need more people and big highways. They are already out on 101.
Thanks also for seeing the importance of SLO's farmers market. It represents community values while being an extraordinary marketing and commercial event, particularly since it is a weekly extravaganza. The entire downtown area, the main street and several blocks of side streets, is closed to traffic. The market includes street fair elements, entertainment and TONS of BBQ and other great victuals. It offers something for everyone; a family affair. Pretty much all the local merchants, foodies and retailers, put something on the street on market night. This is the best kind of institutional marketing for everyone involved, & it's wholesome, healthy and fun!
It is never too late to reconsider or have a conversation about subjects like these. What I'm trying to do is point to things that work elsewhere, which also support diversity, community, & especially the convergence of rural life with "downtown." These are the things that preserve a "sense of place."
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:
To bad everyone fought the farmers market being at the Barlow, as was the original conception and plan! Instead, ...
07-17-2015, 02:07 PM
nancypreb
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Thank you for the measured response and clarification. Your point regarding the relocation of the box stores makes much more sense now.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
Thanks for pointing out confusion in my description. Let me clarify. ...
07-17-2015, 02:18 PM
Mindful Negotiator
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
My pleasure! Thanks for helping me get it right!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:
Thank you for the measured response and clarification. Your point regarding the relocation of the box stores makes much more sense now.
07-17-2015, 03:46 PM
Rustie
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Why are we still spinning our wheels about where we put the box/chain stores. If the chain store issue is as stated, about a local economy then it doesn't matter where you put them. If we do not start producing essential goods and services in our community at a cost that our working class sector can afford we will have done nothing to localize your economy.
A once a week farmers market is a great community gathering but it's not getting the job done. If the goal is about a local economy the questions still need to be asked. Where's the meat coming from for those tons of BBQs and the milk, wheat, fruits and juices for all the pastries, pastas, smoothies, etc? If it's grown here where is it being sent to get processed? It's as though there is an elephant in the room and no one wants to talk about it.
Perhaps the goal here is not about creating a local economy, which I have suspected all along. The issue seems to be how do we look like we're very cool and local-minded. It's all about the look. Take the garment off the rack, put it on and thus you embody it..... OK – let's keep the chain stores out, the crystal shops and hand-made silk scarves in and encourage more wine, beer and latte bars because we all need a hip place to sit and look cool with our smart-phones while we shop at Amazon for all the items we did not snag up at the weekly farmers market.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
... Let me clarify. In SLO, the box stores were placed in a long-developed zone next to the 101 freeway,...
07-17-2015, 04:50 PM
podfish
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
...Perhaps the goal here is not about creating a local economy,...
that's not really fair. "The goal here" has morphed a lot - it's maybe turning into a bit of a discussion of what goals we should have as a regional community.
But the post that started it all was goal-free. It was a heads-up about a public hearing and an encouragement for people to attend. So the subject at the start was pretty narrow - it was centered on whether or how to limit 'chain' retailers, which includes a discussion of how to identify qualifying businesses.
The diversion into a broader discussion is great, and that's the one where the elephant is. Why start making this one about the cool kids vs. the hipsters vs. the posers vs. "people like that"? This ordinance is only a piece of the bigger room at the zoo. It's not just step one of a program that would require everything from zoning changes to tax policy changes to major infrastructure changes. And of course major political changes.
07-17-2015, 06:39 PM
Barry
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Rustie:
..Perhaps the goal here is not about creating a local economy, which I have suspected all along. The issue seems to be how do we look like we're very cool and local-minded. It's all about the look.,,,.
Yes, it is about the "look" to some degree. I want to keep Sebastopol's local, funky, dare I say "organic" feel. I don't want to see chain store after chain store downtown, as is the case in many places. Part is the actual appearance, both the architecture and signage. But it's also about the range of goods and services being offered, having the owners being community members and having the business represent/embody their/our values, and not some hedge-fund owned east coast corporation that's focused on this quarter's bottom line.
Then there's the economics. While any store that buys and sells non-local items, sends the wholesale price for the item out of the community, many of the business supplies and services they need (ie accounting, marketing and advertising :wink:, business planning, insurance, ingredients, etc ) are sourced locally as well as the profits stay local.
There's definitely a place for chain and big box stores, but it isn't in downtown Sebastopol! CVS is welcome to stay in Redwood Marketplace, but not downtown.
07-17-2015, 07:04 PM
Shepherd
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Economics has certainly dominated the conversation. There are important ethical issues as well. For example, when I go into Community Market to re-use their berry flats, the workers seem happy and welcome me, as they do at Andy's Market. So I leave happy. Whole Foods, on the other hand, does not pass such useable (and expensive) packaging on to those of us who operate small family farms. So if I had to buy that packaging, I would have to pass the costs on to customers.
I enjoy taking guests to Sebastopol to Screamin' Mimis for ice cream. It is such a great family place. People like the ice cream and the local ambience. I would like to attract people here who appreciate such things. For example, I had two certified permaculture designers camping out on my farm this summer while picking berries. They have now moved to a neighbor's barn, where they can build their tiny home. Another woman from the Seattle area put a notice on Wacco that she wants to locate her tiny home that is being built somewhere down here. So I wrote her and connected her to my permaculture friends. Such networking is one of the many things that build communities. It is enhanced by local shops, rather than CVS.
07-17-2015, 08:05 PM
luke32
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
... and besides, we need that chain link fence to post signs on
07-18-2015, 02:06 PM
Rustie
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
Point well taken Podfish – in that spirit the original post should not have had any further comments. It was in fact simply a notice about the upcoming public hearing and an appeal for folks to attend. The subject as you have aptly stated was narrow, specifically centering on whether or not and/or how we should limit chain stores. Accepting the limitations of the narrow subject I propose that it would be negligent to discuss whether or not chain stores should be restricted without determining why we would be considering such a proposal. In that spirit I believe that it is well within the bounds of the post to be discussing our goals. If in fact our goals are unclear or ill-defined then it is, in my opinion, the proposal that is the diversion. Why would we consider moving forward with an ordinance if our objective is vague at best?
Once the objective is defined, which I'm not sure it has been, the responsible next step is to determine if in fact the proposed ordinance will effectively accomplish its objective. It is from this perspective that I have posited all of my comments.
It appears from the posts here on Wacco that there are several intended goals for this proposal. Go local, preserve our history, maintain our ambiance, and foster ethics. I'm on board with all of these objectives. In the long run however I don't believe that this ordinance will effectively accomplish any of them. Meanwhile the wine and hotel industries are moving quickly to capture our beautiful West County as another bustling hot tourist trap. That having been said, and in an effort to be fair, I propose that we move forward quickly. Let's pass this ordinance then stop wasting time with window dressing. A sustainable local economy that will preserve our history, landscape and ambiance will be a huge undertaking. If that is truly what we want I suggest we get busy.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
...the post that started it all was goal-free. ...
07-21-2015, 11:57 AM
Peacetown Jonathan
Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY'S
I think that banning formula stores in our small, vibrant and LOCAL downtown is important and support the Council's effort to do so. That said, I am less concerned about what happens outside the downtown core, like what goes into the shopping center next to Lucky's Supermarket, far from the pedestrian downtown.
What does concern me is the seeming inability of our city Council to understand and integrate the practice of attracting desired businesses through zoning variances. There was a big article in today's PD here about the huge success of the new Amy's Drive Through. Amy's first looked at Sebastopol, as described below. It would have brought hundreds of thousands of dollars of new tax revenue to our community from all those healthy food lovers who are crowding into their new restaurant in Rohnert Park. I hope that the Council can understand that in the future, although there might be a ban, there should be exceptions to such rules, made by our Council, such as for an expansion of a regional store or business that offers special benefits (Amy's).
I co-authored an article about how this works--and what happened with Amy's in Sebastopol-- for the North Bay Business a few years ago, that can be seen in its entirety here. This excerpt on variances and Amy's:
Special treatment for local business belongs in a city’s planning toolset. It’s perfectly legal for city officials to consider various factors when responding to requests for zoning variances. We elect our council members to be responsive to the economic and social needs of our community—not to assure the Walmarts of the world that their armies of lawyers and lobbyists will be treated the same as local, small businesses. If a city desires a specific outcome, like preserving local jobs or encouraging local ownership, our elected officials have every right to reserve the “carrot” of a zoning variance to those new projects that deliver these outcomes.
For instance, many of the new public mini-parks in New York City were funded through zoning variances, letting buildings go a little higher than they’d have been allowed under existing air rights regulations. Over the past few decades, the city traded air space for hundreds of millions of dollars worth of public space on the ground, typically to the delight of communities.
A compelling example of local officials failing to use their variance granting powers to help the local economy was Sebastopol’s experience with Amy’s Kitchen during the summer of 2011. Petaluma-based Amy’s, one of the largest employers in Sonoma County, selected the Pasta Bella site at 796 Gravenstein Highway as the launch site for its pilot healthy fast food restaurant. Former Planning Commissioner Bob Green recently explained that although he felt “everybody in Sebastopol would love to have” the nation’s first organic Amy’s fast food restaurant, he believed he had no choice but to turn down the application because of a 1990’s general plan ban on restaurant drive-throughs. Green reflected that to approve Amy’s “wouldn’t really be fair” to the McDonald’s franchises of the world.
In other words, he felt bound to not consider public interest economic considerations like local ownership, living wages and benefits, sales tax generation, the fact that this drive-through would scarcely impact traffic because it was in the outskirts of town, and the public health advantages of organic food. Responsive government would have considered these factors and granted a variance to Amy’s. Instead, Amy’s was turned away and the site is now vacant.
07-21-2015, 09:20 PM
authenticeye
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Thank you Jonathan for sharing that excerpt in this thread - it better prepared me as I attended the City Council meeting earlier this evening.
On the agenda was an informational item to address the current state of the north end of town and how properties are zoned. Much was discussed in regard to the level of involvement the Council can take with proposals made. Vice Mayor Gurney wove into the conversation toward the end a question asking whether there had been a window of opportunity for the council back in 2011 to appeal the design review boards decision to the City Council themselves for a further review. Staff affirmed that could have taken place..... there was much surprise amongst the council to this response and they requested that they need to know that kind of information [ability to appeal for further review].
So looking back, there is the question to who was sitting on the Board in 2011 and had they the knowledge to this role they could have played... and there is the element of greater perspective - what was happening in 2011 ~ where was CVS in the city dialogue?
Had its presence just begun to stir the waters of the public's concern for Sebastopol's future, the desire to slow down [Cittaslow was just landing in town]...
I propose that the City write a letter to Amy's inviting them to open a second location [minus the drive thru] in Sebastopol. Sure, Sebastopol missed being the pilot site for their growth, yet I'm sure Amy's has already new ideas in how they want their next location to look and function. ~*~ :waccosun:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
I think that banning formula stores in our small, vibrant and LOCAL downtown is important and support the Council's effort to do so. That said, ...
07-22-2015, 10:51 AM
scamperwillow
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
I love the idea of having an Amy's here in town, but did you read about the hundreds of cars idling in line waiting for their food? Not too good for the climate I would say. Why not a sit-down Amy's - or one of those old fashioned drive-in's where you park and wait in your car and a waiter/waitress comes out to take your order. Maybe on roller skates! Remember those? I think the PC/council made the right decision in favor of climate protection - sad as it is to see those tax dollars going to Rohnert Park.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
...What does concern me is the seeming inability of our city Council to understand and integrate the practice of attracting desired businesses through zoning variances. There was a big article in today's PD here about the huge success of the new Amy's Drive Through. Amy's first looked at Sebastopol, as described below....
07-22-2015, 11:41 AM
Mindful Negotiator
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Scamperwillow illuminates what should be, or might be, a central point of policy consideration. Core values is more important than business size or formula classifications.
In requiring drive though locations for their business, Amy's shows a conflict in values. And perhaps their true colors. They are appealing (in large part) to superficially green & healthy, but instant-gratification lifestyles to make a profit, while contributing to bad environmental and property use policy. Do we want to support that model?
Progressive, environmentally conscious policy should prohibit drive through uses of any kind, whether they are an owner-operator selling flowers grown in Sebastopol, or Starbucks.
Let's avoid labeling and focus on use, values and purpose.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:
I love the idea of having an Amy's here in town, but did you read about the hundreds of cars idling in line waiting for their food? Not too good for the climate I would say. Why not a sit-down Amy's - or one of those old fashioned drive-in's where you park and wait in your car and a waiter/waitress comes out to take your order. Maybe on roller skates! Remember those? I think the PC/council made the right decision in favor of climate protection - sad as it is to see those tax dollars going to Rohnert Park.
07-22-2015, 12:03 PM
Ted Pole
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
In requiring drive though locations for their business, Amy's shows a conflict in values. And perhaps their true colors. They are appealing (in large part) to superficially green & healthy, but instant-gratification lifestyles to make a profit, while contributing to bad environmental and property use policy. Do we want to support that model?
Progressive, environmentally conscious policy should prohibit drive through uses of any kind, whether they are an owner-operator selling flowers grown in Sebastopol, or Starbucks.
Let's avoid labeling and focus on use, values and purpose.
The logical conclusion of which is banning parking lots, because people use them instant gratification buggies to get there. People should walk or bike or take bio-diesel mass transit everywhere, and if they can't then stay out of Sebastopol. Or, at least the "historic downtown district". The rest of you rubes out by Fircrest and Fiesta and the urp (choking on my own vomit for just a sec) 7-11? Go crazy.
Would there be indulgences granted to those in electric vehicles? What about Hybrids?
While I agree with the sentiment of having some kind of ecotopian village, the realities of its authoritarian nature are disturbing.
:Yinyangv::heart::recycle:
07-22-2015, 12:49 PM
Shandi
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Roger, I'm curious what Amy's reply would be, and if anyone can claim to not want instant-gratification, besides us "superficially green and healthy" residents and visitors in Rohnert Park. One thing we'll never know is where the unexpected onslaught of Amy's first customers live. Did anyone here go?
I hadn't seen their location, so I thought it was "just" a drive thru, but after seeing the pictures, I realized that they also had a sit down restaurant. I'll check it out at some point.
As a disabled senior, there are times when a drive thru really helps with banking or getting a quick bite to eat when blood sugar is dropping. (Although personally I avoid fast food places, and restaurants in general. I prefer having more control over what I eat.) And for those who have children, it can prevent the stress of getting the kids out of the car safely, and controlling them once they're in the fast food environment.
There's always different perspectives on anything, like the story of the 3 blind men describing the elephant. Here's another view to consider: Without the drive-thru, establishments would need a bigger building to accommodate larger lineups. They would also need more parking. Both impact the carbon footprint of the establishment.
I do think that Sebastopol has a lot to consider with respect to businesses, and core values are important. Unfortunately, they're already suffering from some businesses that seem to have only one core value, of profit. But I'll bet that many residents support these businesses, without a second thought. Isn't that instant gratification, with no thought to the impact of their purchase? Would they be considered "superficially green and healthy"?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
Scamperwillow illuminates what should be, or might be, a central point of policy consideration. Core values is more important than business size or formula classifications....
07-22-2015, 02:39 PM
Mindful Negotiator
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Ted Pole & Shandi:
Oh my. Thanks for reminding me that exaggerating-to-make-a-point has unintended consequences! :wink: My point was about the dangers of labeling, and making policies based on them. And there I went and labeled to make the point.
It's my view that local policy should be about people, landscape, compatible uses and community values. It should focus on conduct, not the form of organization. We should look beyond "personalities" to principles.
So I try to avoid attaching conclusions or judgments to words words/phrases without context. Pertinent examples here might be "chain/formula stores;" "developer;" "landlord;" "tenant;" "corporation;" "sole-proprietor." Doing so just isn't terribly useful in my experience, and is often bigoted.
So I support the ideas behind the formula store ordinance, especially the focus on preserving community landscape and values. I am skeptical that the ordinance will work well or be fair. Yet I'd rather see something like it in place, than no controls at all.
For those who are still reading, I spare you the long version history on drive-thrus. They are great out on I-5, or other empty places where a pod of retail can serve travelers. They don't work in congested areas. Developers of shopping centers do not like them, because they hurt economics. Primarily because the drive-thru lane takes away parking spaces. Busy centers need more parking (yes, some with electric hook ups!)
It is true that seniors, the mobility-impaired and harried parents benefit from drive-thrus. But that need can be met with technology (product delivery apps) and additional customer service resources.
To Shandi's point about seniors, the following may be of interest. About 20 years ago, the big drug store chains all started shifting to drive-thru locations, to better serve their senior and disabled customers. Sure, they had their eye on profits. But let's give the devil her due-these chains identified an authentic need among a much-neglected group, and acted to meet it.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:
Roger, I'm curious what Amy's reply would be, and if anyone can claim to not want instant-gratification, ...
07-22-2015, 08:05 PM
podfish
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole:
The logical conclusion of which is banning parking lots, because people use them instant gratification buggies to get there. People should walk or bike or take bio-diesel mass transit everywhere, and if they can't then stay out of Sebastopol.
no, the logical conclusion along that line of reasoning would be banning cars.
I missed using some Latin, too - reductio ad absurdum ... optima ratio vicere!
07-23-2015, 12:37 AM
meherc
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
I hesitate to even respond to this comment as I've been saddened to see how often disagreement here gets labeled as ignorance or obvious closed-mindedness if the topic is controversial. And I don't want to get hit. But I believe that the laws should be applied evenhandedly. If zoning rules prohibit drive-ins, it doesn't mean I get to exclude drive-ins that I like and quash the rest. Amy's is a very nice company, I'm sure, but not EVERYBODY loves Amy's, and not everyone would applaud a variance for them as this comment implies.
I'm glad we have council members like the one referred to who see that you can't make a law and apply it selectively - MacDonald's is out and Amy's is in just because you like them. No one gets to decide that their food is what the community should be eating or their employment standards meet what some one decides are the correct standards and you should let the "good" companies slide through. Some one is going to be making the choice of which company is good and which is bad. . That's like free speech. It doesn't just apply to speech that you agree with; it applies to ALL speech.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
...What does concern me is the seeming inability of our city Council to understand and integrate the practice of attracting desired businesses through zoning variances...
07-23-2015, 07:46 AM
podfish
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by meherc:
I hesitate to even respond to this comment as I've been saddened to see how often disagreement here gets labeled as ignorance or obvious closed-mindedness if the topic is controversial. And I don't want to get hit. But I believe that the laws should be applied evenhandedly. ... . That's like free speech. It doesn't just apply to speech that you agree with; it applies to ALL speech.
I'll try to disagree politely then!
I don't think it's the same as free speech at all. "The laws" aren't all of equal weight. Since i-am-not-a-lawyer (sorry, the common internet acronym is too silly) I'm not sure, but I think zoning ordinances aren't the same type of 'laws' as those regarding assault, for example. Free speech isn't a law either - it's a right. There's no way to apply rules identically because 1) people are involved and 2) situations differ.
If 'rules' are applied capriciously then you don't have rules, but when decisions are made with deliberation and consider a broad context, you get better decisions. In that sense, the rules are guidelines which outline the boundaries. The whole idea of judges came about because exercise of judgement is essential - later, when 'laws' were introduced by Hammurabi and Prince John (unwillingly) they never claimed that made judges obsolete.
I still don't want a damn drive-through, though.
07-23-2015, 05:30 PM
Peacetown Jonathan
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Roger, I appreciate your insight into this.
I hear what you are saying about their conflict in values, and bad environmental policy of drive thrus in general. It makes a good point. But I think they are looking at it very differently, in this great big balancing act that is our lives.
I could understand how Amy's aspiration may be to transform the entire fast food industry. From their perspective, probably, every customer who goes to them for vegetarian food is NOT going to McDonalds or Burger King of KFC, whose factory farmed MEAT consumes enormous quantities of energy and resources to produce, as well as misery for sentient beings.
If we look at what is being replaced and how it impacts our planet and public health, Amy's fast food is an enormous step in the right direction to provide a healthy (for humans and our planet) alternative to a very destructive reality. Not just for we health foodie few, but for the unconverted burger chomping many.
This could be historic. And it would have made me proud to have seen this history begin here in Peacetown, USA, instead of having our city government treat this highly principled local business as though they were a Burger King outlet. This is a sin of omission (not commission), or error, that I propose we change in our local government. Petaluma-based Amy's, with this extraordinarily well funded and well conceived project, raising mega sales taxes, while paying living wages and health care benefits, with an environmentally progressive approach to fast food, was treated as though they were a Burger King outlet. I see this as a problem. Do our elected representatives, or Planning Commission members, or City Planning department people?
As for the one size fits all no drive thrus ever: location, location, location = traffic, traffic, traffic. Amy's initial location was along the highway near Fircrest. It is not a pedestrian downtown location. Unlike CVS, at the traffic crossroads of West County, it would not have caused major traffic congestion. We have a ban on drive thrus, which is good, but variances are legal. They exist so that, on rare occasions, we can make exceptions. When considering exceptions, our elected officials need to take into account location, neighborhood, pedestrians/cyclists, traffic, and more.
Then weigh the costs against the benefits, and come up with a Go Local solution in which our community wins. :yinyang:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
Scamperwillow illuminates what should be, or might be, a central point of policy consideration. Core values is more important than business size or formula classifications.
In requiring drive though locations for their business, Amy's shows a conflict in values. And perhaps their true colors. They are appealing (in large part) to superficially green & healthy, but instant-gratification lifestyles to make a profit, while contributing to bad environmental and property use policy. Do we want to support that model?
Progressive, environmentally conscious policy should prohibit drive through uses of any kind, whether they are an owner-operator selling flowers grown in Sebastopol, or Starbucks.
Let's avoid labeling and focus on use, values and purpose.
07-23-2015, 07:01 PM
Shandi
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
Just as Scamperwillow is "sad" to lose Amy's to Rohnert Park, I'm "glad" they're here, and obviously I'm not in the minority, considering the unexpected throngs of people on opening day. (I wouldn't begrudge anyone getting something that would benefit them, even if it meant that I didn't get it.)
My housemate had been driving around the location off and on, wondering when it would open, but he never mentioned it to me until the day after they opened. He's vegan, and is thrilled that Amy's is here. He said "Now, there's someplace I can take people to eat healthy food, and I can pick up lunch on my way into work." Sebastopol has plenty of healthy places to eat; now Rohnert Park has one.
All my life I've heard the term "exceptions to the rule", but unfortunately for Sebastopol, this wasn't a consideration. I wish there were such "hard fast rules" for the wine industry that seems to have free reign to take whatever they need for their precious grapes, with little thought of the consequences to the community. Why do they get away with so much that's against the interests of the community? Do the big fines make up for their greed? Are there vested interests with those who authorize the wineries? It seems to take a huge outcry from residents to halt plans that are obviously dangerous and disrespectful to the area. I'm glad to see this is happening.
07-23-2015, 07:10 PM
Shandi
Re: Limit Formula Stores BUT Allow Variances for Amy's-like biz: BIG MISTAKE SEB LOST AMY
I like your thinking and view about local policy. And, of course about the dangers of labeling. It's a tough one, and I think we all do it from time to time.
Drive thrus are successful because there's a need, or rather a desire for ease and comfort...the American way. As you mentioned, the big drug chains saw the need, and successful business models are based on finding a need, and filling it.
Delivery services would be great, but most have a surcharge attached, except for Kaiser's prescriptions.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by RogerAMossEsq:
...It's my view that local policy should be about people, landscape, compatible uses and community values. It should focus on conduct, not the form of organization. We should look beyond "personalities" to principles....
08-24-2015, 08:06 PM
Barry
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
The Sebastopol City Council will be having a public hearing on a revised draft ordinance governing formula businesses (aka "chain stores) in Sebastopol at their meeting on Tuesday, September 2nd.
You can see the staff report here which includes a very approachable discussion of the considerations and limitations proposed.
08-26-2015, 04:14 AM
ramkumar90
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
All this is really good, and this description especially rocks:
"the loathsome wine bar Disneyland that Napa has become"
Love it!
08-31-2015, 10:01 PM
Barry
Re: Seb. City Council to consider limiting chains/formula business
The Sebastopol City Council will be having a public hearing on a revised draft ordinance governing formula businesses (aka "chain stores) in Sebastopol at their meeting on Tuesday, September 2nd 1st.
You can see the staff report here which includes a very approachable discussion of the considerations and limitations proposed.
