Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

I am a member of the Sebastopol Design Review Board (DRB). We've recently reviewed a signage proposal for The Barlow. The proposed signs are fairly large, so will have a lasting impact the character of town. As your representative on matters of design, I would appreciate input as we prepare to make a decision on this matter.

Background - What is proposed are two large, hand painted signs; one on the East and one on the West sides of the Guayaki building.





The lettering and the "B" in the circle are proposed to be painted directly on the wall, not unlike the the way original "The Barlow Company" sign was applied to the old building.



My thoughts are as follows:

1. History - Large signs on buildings have history here. The old Barlow building (above) and Frizelle Enos (below) are two examples of buildings that have or had large graphics on them, and this way of making a building into a sign is (or was) common in the area. In general, like these types of signs, especially when they work with the building shape like Frizelle does.



2. Disclosure - I am educated as an architect, but practice graphic design and I specialize in signage and graphics in the built environment. I'm a bit biased ... I tend to like well done graphics, even huge ones, but I am also keenly aware of how graphics can affect the character of a place.

3. Nature of The Barlow - I tend to think of The Barlow as a part of Sebastopol rather than a "development" or "project", so I admit to bristling a little at the thought of large Barlow logos in the center of town. We don't have large "Downtown" or "Sebastopol" signs, so I am not sure I like the idea of large scale project or business names. That said, I'm not sure how to reconcile this with my affection for Frizelle Enos. Maybe the Barlow signs will, in time, become something we all feel connected to in a similar way.

4. The Barlow Needs More Visitors (?) - I don't have any hard data, but It's my understanding that some of the tenants in The Barlow are struggling and need more traffic. While I am very sympathetic to this, a development this large always takes time to fill up, establish itself and find it's groove. I'm not sure large scale graphics are going to speed up that natural process, and may have undesirable impacts to the larger community.

5. Sign Exceptions- We have a provision in our code that grants the DRB the authority to allow signs that are outside the limits of the sign code. I take the responsibility of approving the sign exception very seriously. Granting one can be very valuable to a business, so the community should expect a high value visual benefit in return.

Code allows sign exceptions for the following reasons:

1. The exception shall allow a unique sign of exceptional design or style that
will enhance the area or building, or that will be a visible landmark; or


2. The exception will allow a sign that is more consistent with the architecture
and development of the site; or site context; or is appropriate given
the nature of the business; or



3. The granting of the exception will not constitute the granting of special
privilege inconsistent with the sign limitations upon other properties in the
same vicinity and Zone District.

My thoughts on Sign Exception Items Above:
1. I am not convinced that this is an exceptional design. It might be said to enhance an otherwise plain, industrial building. It will definitely create a visible landmark for better or worse.

2. I might considered the design consistent with the architecture and the development of the site.

3. Allowing these signs would definitely give The Barlow a "special privilege".

6. Concern about precedence - I worry that, by allowing theses signs, we might open ourselves to liability when we try to regulate other sign exception applications. Would we be able to deny giant "Rite Aid" or "Citibank" signs?

7. Conclusion - I believe sign exceptions should only be granted when a proposed design is exceptional. Really fantastic. Something I can glance at and immediately say, "YES"!. It has to be something I think the majority of the community will be excited about. I have mixed feelings about this, which makes me want to say "No", so I would like to hear from you.

Please let me know your thoughts, and keep your eye on the DRB agenda for upcoming meetings if you would like to share your views with the board. It is not on the agenda yet, but I expect it to be soon.

Feel free to email me at the address below.

Thank you,

Ted Luthin

[email protected]

If I were Guayaki, I'd be pissed.
There's signage on the corner as people enter Sebastopol.
This just looks like the Barlow management, which has failed to fill it's spaces and attract enough shoppers to the businesses in the back, is hoping a giant billboard is going to change things.
Is this what you want to see everyday as you come home?

Thank you for your intelligent and honest assessment of the potential Barlow signeage, and for asking for input. I feel that the impact of these huge signs would be more negative than positive, and that as you suggest, it would set a precedent for other businesses like Citibank (CVS?) to be awarded huge signeage rights. I prefer to think of us as one town, and the huge signeage suggests separation to me. dg.

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

I am a member of the Sebastopol Design Review Board (DRB). We've recently reviewed a signage proposal for The Barlow. The proposed signs are fairly large, so will have a lasting impact the character of town. As your representative on matters of design, I would appreciate input as we prepare to make a decision on this matter.

Background - What is proposed are two large, hand painted signs; one on the East and one on the West sides of the Guayaki building.





The lettering and the "B" in the circle are proposed to be painted directly on the wall, not unlike the the way original "The Barlow Company" sign was applied to the old building.



My thoughts are as follows:...

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To continue on my previous post.
The Feed Store signs are an iconic part of honoring Frizelle Enos. The business has been a part of Sebastopol for over 80 years.
The Barlow is a new development. They have radically transformed the plant of old, and this sign (while in it's namesake) does not honor the plant or it's history. It represents the new development.

To my eyes the design samples posted make the buildings look like railroad cars or shipping containers; hardly inviting. But there is no reason that a beautiful welcoming, museum quality graphic or other artwork can't be found for the buildings.
Signs are part of urban reality and magnificent examples of their inclusion in cityscapes can be found throughout the world. Why not Sebastopol?
Your proposal is an opportunity for the city to present itself in a positive, memorable, and even fantastic light.

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

I am a member of the Sebastopol Design Review Board (DRB). We've recently reviewed a signage proposal for The Barlow. The proposed signs are fairly large, so will have a lasting impact the character of town. As your representative on matters of design, I would appreciate input as we prepare to make a decision on this matter....

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i really appreciate you asking for feedback here. i do think the lettering is too big, out of scale with the building, and totally boring. also, do you know why guayaki took down their beautiful signage a few years ago? that was far more fantastic and interesting than anything barney has chosen for the barlow. who does he want to draw in, and who does he want to chase away?

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

I am a member of the Sebastopol Design Review Board (DRB). We've recently reviewed a signage proposal for The Barlow. The proposed signs are fairly large, so will have a lasting impact the character of town. As your representative on matters of design, I would appreciate input as we prepare to make a decision on this matter...

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I think this definately fits into exception #2:

2. The exception will allow a sign that is more consistent with the architecture
and development of the site; or site context; or is appropriate given
the nature of the business.

This sign fits in perfectly with the site context of a large ugly industrial style. T

Tofu Larry

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

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thank-you for opening this issue up for discussion with the community. Here are my thoughts.

1. The Guayaki building needs some enhancement visually as it is not an attractive structure in my view as it currently stands despite several efforts at painting it over the years. It also could benefit by more visual integration into the surrounding structures.

2. I would suggest looking at the typography of the original Barlow company sign (that you included in your post) and modify the current Barlow font to reflect the history of the building that it would adorn. Painting the letters directly on the metal siding is a plus since that would integrate them into the structure rather than "sticking them" on the surface. The graphics enhance what is otherwise an undistinguished structure at best. I would also suggest allowing for a somewhat "decayed" look around the edges of the letters to suggest the historic aspect of the name of the structures, again to integrate the signage with the history of the town and its historic activities. All of these suggestions reflect the current look of the Frizelle Enos signage, characteristics that would not be reflected in a corporate plastic sign that Rite Aid or other business might attempt to have approved in the future. Just make sure that any future business signage is suited to the character of the town and the structure on which it it to be placed.

3. The addition of a mural to the side of the Guayaki Building reflecting the history of the site would provide an opportunity for local artists and educate visitors who have no idea why it's called "The Barlow" or the history beneath the surface.

My expertise is 40 years as a visual artist and former professor of studio art at a large San Francisco art college and 27-year resident and close observer of the Sebastopol area.

Posting signs within the Barlow complex is fine with me. Posting signs outside the complex should fit in with the existing look of the town. I would recommend signposts as an alternative of "billboards". Signposts would show visitors where to find the Barlow, as well as other Sebastopol locations.

Way way way too big. It's as out of scale as the winery that was just turned down. Please tell them NO.

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

I am a member of the Sebastopol Design Review Board (DRB). We've recently reviewed a signage proposal for The Barlow. The proposed signs are fairly large, so will have a lasting impact the character of town. As your representative on matters of design, I would appreciate input as we prepare to make a decision on this matter.

Background - What is proposed are two large, hand painted signs; one on the East and one on the West sides of the Guayaki building.





The lettering and the "B" in the circle are proposed to be painted directly on the wall, not unlike the the way original "The Barlow Company" sign was applied to the old building.

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agreed. the original barlow signs were plenty big. these are way out of scale. unless maybe as we age we need magnified signage.

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Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega:

Way way way too big. It's as out of scale as the winery that was just turned down. Please tell them NO.

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My thoughts? One word . . .
GROSS

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Posted in reply to the post by Tofu Larry:

This sign fits in perfectly with the site context of a large ugly industrial style.

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I agree, but I mean 'ugly' affectionately. It is an industrial style... so run with what you got.

Thank you for the interjection of humor - it helps soften my ire toward the Barlow.

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Posted in reply to the post by Tofu Larry:

I think this definately fits into exception #2:

2. The exception will allow a sign that is more consistent with the architecture
and development of the site; or site context; or is appropriate given
the nature of the business.

This sign fits in perfectly with the site context of a large ugly industrial style. T

Tofu Larry

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Just to be clear the Dairyman winery was not turned down, (if that is what you are referring to) only objected to by the public and our council, but this is not in our city's jurisdiction instead its under the control of the Board of Supervisors. This we need a concerted effort to stop.
People will need to go to meetings of different bodies like the Planning Commission etc.
Stay vigilant! We need to go to meetings enmasse as happened at the Sebastopol City Council.
Best, magick

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Posted in reply to the post by Bryan:

agreed. the original barlow signs were plenty big. these are way out of scale. unless maybe as we age we need magnified signage.

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One way to convert a sow's ear to a silk purse is through the use of tompe l'oeil (fool the eye) imagery.
Images below are just sample illustrations NOT proposed images.



Another avenue to consider is to enlist the skills of the Graphic Design department at the JC. The instructors there are always looking for challenging projects for their students. Contact Carmen Sheldon the head of the department at: [email protected], tel: 527-4909.

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Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega:

Way way way too big. It's as out of scale as the winery that was just turned down. Please tell them NO.

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I think that is a very interesting idea. It would probably put the Barlow more on the map than their idea, drawing people to see the mural and possibly similar projects in the district. That will be good for the stores there and for Sebastopol as a whole. I have met people who drove to Sebastopol from San Jose just to see the Amiot metal art. They likely spent money in town as well.

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Posted in reply to the post by Ronaldo:

One way to convert a sow's ear to a silk purse is through the use of tompe l'oeil (fool the eye) imagery.
Images below are just sample illustrations NOT proposed images....

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Hello Podfish,

I am sure that you understood that my response was meant as satire. Just to be sure that no one misunderstands me, I am not in favor of ugly, and this is ugly. It will not make a pleasant transition from the Dairyman industrial complex to the newly industrialized town of Sebastopol, not THE BARLOW. I agree with the suggestions of something with a bit of artistry and perhaps an aged look.

Tofu Larry

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

I agree, but I mean 'ugly' affectionately. It is an industrial style... so run with what you got.

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Posted in reply to the post by Tofu Larry:

Hello Podfish,

I am sure that you understood that my response was meant as satire. ...

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I did get that. Mine wasn't, though. A lot of people don't like the homogenized, plastic corporate look you expect with CVS and other chains coming into town. I don't really like the cutesy homespun artsy aesthetic that often goes along with crafty-type businesses all that much more. Just because Frizelle Enos's sign was old, it's ok but new ones like that aren't ok?? I miss the old tractor yard, too. I even like junkyards. And dive bars. And I let kids play on my lawn.

First off, thanks Ted for bringing us your concerns and cogent comments and asking for community feedback! :tiphat:

I'm thinking it's too big and I also don't like how the lettering is interrupted by the doors and window. It looks bad in the mockup, and you know it's going to look worse in reality with all the different surfaces.

Additionally I think the East facing wall is redundant since it is seen when entering town from the east and The Barlow already has an attractive sign near the Morris Street corner, as I remember.

Regarding size, I think a fair and tasteful guideline would be to limit the lettering to the size of the former sign ("The Barlow Co."). That's plenty big enough! And hopefully it would fit on the west facing side without obscuring the window, especially if it were shifted a bit to the north to fit under the smaller window. Limiting the size to the prior size might also help to defend against other businesses requests for such a large sign.

I'd be ok with just their big B logo (without The Barlow) on east facing side, even at the proposed size, but hopefully smaller, positioned on some flat wall.

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

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Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega:

I think that is a very interesting idea. It would probably put the Barlow more on the map than their idea, drawing people to see the mural and possibly similar projects in the district. That will be good for the stores there and for Sebastopol as a whole. I have met people who drove to Sebastopol from San Jose just to see the Amiot metal art. They likely spent money in town as well.

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There's the new mural in downtown, there's the street paintings, I think that a mural would be much better and able to express much more about the Barlow than just a giant logo.

What a clever idea, about limiting size to previous sign size! It seems there should be a limit to how many signs Barlow can have altogether... otherwise, we may come to be known as "Barlowtown" because that name and/or logo will appear so often and so prominently before the eyes of distracted drivers! The empty space on the corner where the "rescued" tree is now has The Barlow Hotel sign and The Barlow sign and another sign with names of businesses in the development is on the corner too. I AM uneasy about getting the signage issues for the city implemented prior to further development downtown, such as a Barlow Hotel and the CVS project or whatever else is coming at us fast-and-furiously. And we need much more parking space before we develop more "attractions" that will bring more traffic. I do pray for more creative ways of enjoying our lovely little town!

I also like the idea of having more "art" and artisans being able to do murals or installations that speak to the issues of the day or remind us of the wisdom of the past. There is not much color (except for all the cars!) and the proposed Barlow sign with that enormous "B" so the center doesn't feel at all user-friendly to me except for Community Market's front yard, which is the only thing attractive and user-friendly. It looks like that building would support a wonderful mural depicting Sebastopol's wonders or images of the birds of the Laguna or a dreamscape of what we want here in Peacetown... the possibilities are endless.

I appreciate the opportunity to comment on this issue!
Rev. BE :heart:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

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Regarding size, I think a fair and tasteful guideline would be to limit the lettering to the size of the former sign ...

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Sebastopol is not "newly industrialized!" What's new is this "quaint and quirky conscious community" that claims to want "small town charm," all the while forgoing the very elements that make a town self-sufficient....like INDUSTRY! We use to have an electric commuter train...couldn't get more "green" than that. Instead, now we have bike paths on old railroad tracks. We use to have a train going through the middle of town, carrying PRODUCT out to the world.

Now we want to attract outsiders to come and sip wine, eat "foodie" food, and stay in our fancy hotel to visit our agricultural museums. We use to have a cement plant, lumber yard, and apple processing plant.... now we have a wine tasting room, wine tasting room, distillery, brewery, wine tasting room. No wonder we need an "upscale hotel".... where else are people expected to sleep it off?!

The Barlow is an industrial complex, consider and treat it as such. Stop making the Barlow/Sebastopol into something it never was, never promised to be.... a retiree's entertainment center. There's Calistoga, Healdsburg, and Napa for that! Instead of making something that "looks old," how about considering creating things that actually last and become old. I'm not interested in living in a museum!

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Posted in reply to the post by Tofu Larry:

...I am not in favor of ugly, and this is ugly. It will not make a pleasant transition from the Dairyman industrial complex to the newly industrialized town of Sebastopol, not THE BARLOW. ...

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Sebastopol certainly wouldn't want to attract any of those pesky retirees to Sebastopol to some sinful sinful entertainment center! What do you suggest the age limit be?

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

... now we have a wine tasting room, wine tasting room, distillery, brewery, wine tasting room. No wonder we need an "upscale hotel".... where else are people expected to sleep it off?!

The Barlow is an industrial complex, consider and treat it as such. Stop making the Barlow/Sebastopol into something it never was, never promised to be.... a retiree's entertainment center. There's Calistoga, Healdsburg, and Napa for that! Instead of making something that "looks old," how about considering creating things that actually last and become old. I'm not interested in living in a museum!

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Your attempt at being clever and smart only goes to illustrate my point...again, "Instead of making something that "looks old," how about considering creating things that actually last and become old." That statement doesn't include people, it's about people . But "attracting" the likes of your photo-shopped illustration- no thank you!!! Your witticism demonstrates a lack of understanding as to the gravity and long-term impact a town geared solely towards recreation and tourism has on the future. It projects a growing desire towards a photo-shopped community, complete with pleasing graphics and murals, in lieu of substance. I want a town where the people who work here can afford to live here, and not just by working in the hospitality industry!! But even those employees are coming in from Santa Rosa, Rohnert Park, Petaluma. Even our own city workers have to come in from out of town! I want a town with a diversity of jobs that affords those workers the ability to buy homes here, raise their children here, grow old here! Not just serve glasses of Pinot and foie gras to the tourists staying at our fancy, high-end, corporate Hotel Barlow, and then retreat to wherever it is they came from, just like the people they serve. I want a town you don't have to photoshop.

Why are our schools having to redistrict again? Because "From 2000, when there were 1,262 students, just over half remained by 2013, when enrollment was 650 students." (Press Democrat February 12, 2015) What's this tell you? That we are loosing working-class families (young and old) and replacing them with disposable-income residents (young and old).... people who either don't work, don't work here, or they work here....just can't afford to live here. Why has a Barlow Tenant Association formed for the sole purpose of demanding an audit of the triple net fees? Because they're feeling the impact of the very problem of the Barlow; it was out-priced from the beginning to attract the appropriate tenants to make it what it was promised to be. Now it's having trouble being the tourist destination it wants to be. And we think a sign is going to fix the problem?!

You can try to twist my word "retiree" into an issue of "ageism," but anyone with a spark of intelligence knows that my word refers to those who do not need work! Privilege, entitlement, even success, can come at any age! I want a town that functions for all ages, all income brackets, and for that to happen, we need industry beyond just tourism. That's what the Barlow promised to be, but is not! So make the sign as useful as the shipping/receiving tucks need to be able to find it, because The Barlow is suppose to be 80% industrial use!!!!! Not a community art project.

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Posted in reply to the post by Ronaldo:

Sebastopol certainly wouldn't want to attract any of those pesky retirees to Sebastopol to some sinful sinful entertainment center! What do you suggest the age limit be?

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"…a retirees entertainment center" as used in your negative context is an ageist statement. You can wiggle all you want I found it offensive.
Attacking my use of Photoshop to illustrate the silliness of your statement does not make it any less ageist. Although you find my wit and cleverness to be negative qualities, thank's for the compliment!
Photoshop is a sophisticated tool and has many uses, railing against it shows your narrow understanding of its uses. You condemn the pen for the words it writes.

"Not a community art project" insults those who have been actively involved in them. Read of some of the world wide community art projects that Lily Yeh has been involved in as an example:
https://bit.ly/1DS2qFf

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Posted in reply to the post by Ronaldo:

Sebastopol certainly wouldn't want to attract any of those pesky retirees to Sebastopol to some sinful sinful entertainment center! What do you suggest the age limit be?

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

I want a town where the people who work here can afford to live here, and not just by working in the hospitality industry!! ... I want a town with a diversity of jobs that affords those workers the ability to buy homes here, raise their children here, grow old here! .

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Nancy, I agree with those thoughts absolutely. But I'm not clear what flows from that. I've only been here 15 years, but my impression is that industry & variety of employment wasn't chased out by boutiques & coffee shops but by the fact that the enterprises were no longer economically viable. In your view, is Sebastopol pursuing policies that prevent the kind of economy you'd like to see.

I can see an argument being made that "development" for many people ls a four-letter word and that a downtown asphalt plant would face a bit of opposition, but I can't quite see that letting stuff be butt ugly is going to promote the local economy. Will chasing out the tourists bring in other enterprise? Do you have a sense of what the practical options are for the kind of economy you envision?

As for the Barlow design, It's so brilliantly awful that it almost escapes its own event horizon (cf. black holes) to achieve a kind of poetry of dummydom. Certainly it will attract attention and lots of exclamations of "Huh?"

Cheers—
Conrad

HINT: We're already here!
Rev. BE :heart:

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Posted in reply to the post by Ronaldo:

Sebastopol certainly wouldn't want to attract any of those pesky retirees to Sebastopol to some sinful sinful entertainment center! What do you suggest the age limit be?

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The thing I find so interesting (not shocking, given the history of the Barlow shopping center, but interesting) about this proposal is the sheer audacity of the proposal itself. I am assuming it is the old business tactic of asking for waaay more than what you actually want, so that you can appear to be "reasonable" when you magnanimously agree to "less".

The previous signage, "The Barlow Co.", that they use as a benchmark, wasn't that nice to begin with. Brutal, oversized and dull, the only thing it had going for it was nostalgia. And that is the weakest of attributes for anything.

So, whoever designed this proposed signage obviously bought into the whole myth that the Barlow is its own aesthetic ecosystem, pretty much defined by sterile geometry, a minimalist signage system, and a fanatical dedication to the "Wine Country Lifestyle™" (a bit of marketing jargon I can't believe anyone other than real estate agents can utter with a straight face). And, that this person or committee believed that such garish and ham-fisted attention getting would actually attract people. This is the act of someone who believes that if they simply shout loud enough, people will pay attention to them.

I see the end result of this as CVS moving into the Barlow. Kills two birds with one perfectly manicured stone.

Others on this thread have brought up the issues of what kind of town we'd like S'pol to be. An upscale tourist economy or an actual rural town with an agriculturally-based one. Having lived in tourist towns, I prefer the latter. Tourist towns have a way of coming to hate tourists. They drive too slow or too fast, ask too many dumb questions, drive up prices and encourage the development of new properties at the expense of the old ones.

I've weighed in on this in other threads, so I'll try to avoid repeating myself, but as much as a rural, reality-based town might appeal to some of us, it appears that the pure economics of what Sebastopol is will prevent that from returning, barring some national calamity. There are simply too many people willing to take up the role of small businessperson selling upscale goods and services to vacationing rubes drawn to this beautiful little patch. If there was as much money to be made selling overalls, udder balm and baling wire, the Barlow would be a whole nuther animal (probably more like the wonderful buildings it tore down). And the endless cycle of buy a building, renovate it, up the rents, pay more in taxes on the re-appraisal, up the rent, tenant moves out, up the rent... simply isn't going to help return the town to something Nancy and I, and apparently a few others would prefer.

Hell, even Valley Ford seems too precious nowadays.

:smileymassage::plumber:

Conrad,

Certainly nothing is stagnant and the reason for how we got here and the answers to where we go from here are broad and complex, some within our domain, some totally outside. But for the sake of discussion, let's take Calson's Department Store as an example. Now mind you, I was a kid, buying my school uniforms, blouses for my grandmother, socks for my dad, and visiting Santa Clause, but I also remember at this time that the new Santa Rosa Downtown Mall was being built. It was The Barlow of the 80's; new, shiny, broad-reaching, attractive, et. al. I remember weighing the pros/cons to going to Carlson's to get what I needed v.s. being able to spend the whole afternoon entertained at the mall with my friends (arcade, soft pretzels, Hello Kitty store, salons....) AND get my uniform, blouses, socks, and see Santa. And then look what happened, not only to the SR mall, but to malls all across the country... the late 90's/early 2000's happened. Suddenly we would give our pinky toe to have Carlson's back instead of going to the gang-infested dive that the mall had become.

But the Carlson family had gotten older, no longer needed to run a store, and didn't want/need to compete with the mall and/or the impact it had had, and there was no one to take their place. Meanwhile, Swain's Wood's and apple orchards were being sold and developed because that's where the money was... housing. People who came to visit Sebastopol, fell in love, and bought those houses. The Barlow facility shut down because orchards and woods had became homes and we didn't know to care whether our apples were coming from Washington or Mexico, sprayed with pesticides and trucked thousands of miles. "Organic," "Carbon Footprint," and "Whole Foods" weren't buzz words yet.

And now here we are, trying to undo the unstoppable momentum of decades past, feeling more entitled than responsible, wanting "rural, quaint, small, sustainable, organic, GMO-free, local" et. al., all the while justifying, relying, depending upon the Wine and Tourism money machines, because like the tech industry to the valley, casinos to Indian Nations, Disney to Orlando.... it's what's going to save us, economically! Without it we are bankrupt, so let's embrace it, nurture it, support it, grow it.... and the cycle continues.

As for the City and their policies, you ask a good question. First, I wonder if people even know or remember what the Barlow was promised to be.... WHY it was approved for a "remodel" in the first place. Then, I'm frustrated and unclear as to why there is not the same outcry that was felt with CVS debacle every time the City makes yet another exception for Barney and the Barlow. Is it his cool manner or the warm fuzzing feelings we get from painting pretty things on asphalt that makes us forget about the realtors office, hair salon, fitness club, or the four buildings being inhaled by a Hotel because of the exception that was given to the M Zoning, but only for the Barlow. Meanwhile, we debate as to whether or not there should be a Farmers Market in this facility that 1. PROMISED there'd be one when the city approved the industrial "remodel" and 2. was meant to be the focal point of local agricultural (historically and for the future). Do we not remember that the Barlow was sold as the stepping stone for our market vendors who wanted to expand and grow their business. Instead of wondering "where's the creamery?" we appear to be more concerned about whether there's a fountain to dip our toes in on Sunday and a place for our drum circle.

You're question to me (if I understand correctly) is..."What do you suggest we do, Nancy?!" First, we can't achieve anything if we don't have our priorities clear, straight, and magnanimous. From this, and several other thread discussions, it appears as though "we" do not, or.... there appears to be fewer folks like me and more of the "other".... or are there?! I'm very clear, I don't want a tourist town for the sake of revenue, which is ironic considering how many visitors I have at my house on a daily basis. But even there, Patrick Amiot and I are great examples of two people who just started doing what we were doing, happy to share, but not driven by who we might attract. And THAT'S what we should be demanding of the Barlow and the City officials who approve what happens there. If the Barlow and this community was more focused on what the Barlow was DOING, not who it was "Attracting" and "Accommodating," I'd feel like we'd be miles ahead of where we are now. I'm not anti-tourism so much as hard-nosed about what it is we're building that people might want to see. People go to the Barlow to eat and drink, not to experience or to be educated by what is "happening."

And yes, it is the Planning Commission and the City Council that continues to make exception after exception after exception, approving inappropriate businesses because the Barlow "needs to be successful," but at what cost. I do go to the meetings, I do make my opinions known, all the "regulars" know me, and I am usually a lone voice in a relatively vacant sea, probably just tolerated as one of the town loons. And I genuinely like our City Council and Planning Commissioners... there's really only one or two exceptions... and I'm clearly the only one vocally adamant about the agricultural history, industry, and integrity of this town, particularly with respect to the Barlow, but I can't do it alone. So, either the masses just don't agree with me, or they're unaware of the issues, or they do agree but not interested in being vocal about it because it all feels so defeated anyway, or people really just don't care because they have different priorities all together.

"Pretty" doesn't create substance any more than substance has to be inherently ugly, but if I had to choose, I would take "ugly" if it meant we were demanding productive sustainable industry. You can always paint over an ugly sign, it's a lot harder to undo the tenants! (CVS)

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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:

Nancy, I agree with those thoughts absolutely. But I'm not clear what flows from that. I've only been here 15 years, but my impression is that industry & variety of employment wasn't chased out by boutiques & coffee shops but by the fact that the enterprises were no longer economically viable. In your view, is Sebastopol pursuing policies that prevent the kind of economy you'd like to see. ...

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Great post Nancy. My partner & i have been discussing the lack of "light industry" that we thought was what the barlow would be about, a mix, or what is there & "light industry".
if you post to this thread i will make the next council meeting, so there will be at least 3 voices, bringing a friend.

(locally focused on rehabilitating, training and re.homing rescued horses, and working to make the infrastructure solid for the community of volunteers who finds this work healing for them, as well as the horses. horses are 2nd to wine, in terms of $ spent in the agricultural community. sebastopol, along with santa rosa & petaluma, have the largest number of horses per capita--over 26,000 in the county)

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

Conrad,

Certainly nothing is stagnant and the reason for how we got here and the answers to where we go from here are broad and complex, some within our domain, some totally outside. But for the sake of discussion, let's take Calson's Department Store as an example. ...

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Sebastopol is becoming.......Wait... what was this thread about again?
Ohh yeah...

Barlow Signage - Seeking Community Input on Proposed Signs

Thank you to all who took the time to respond to this post. I really appreciate all the thoughtful comments I received both on this thread and privately. This issue is coming before the Design Review Board this Wednesday, March 4 at 4:00 at City Hall. We would all benefit from hearing the voice of the community at the meeting.

Thanks again,

Ted

Here are a couple less extreme options that were proposed as alternate options for the east facing side:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...2_13-06-41.png

I would be fine with the second one, above.


And here's one for the west facing side:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...2_13-09-14.png

This is still a little large for me, but way better than the one originally offered here.

Please let us know what happens at the meeting, Ted!

Still seems way overly large to me. Compare to Guayaki sign.

Joy

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Here are a couple less extreme options that were proposed as alternate options for the east facing side:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...2_13-06-41.png

I would be fine with the second one, above.

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I agree with you. I think it's excessive and not attractive at all. But then I don't have to see it, since I don't live in Sebastopol. I guess that's their particular font, but it doesn't have much artistic appeal, in my perspective. Well, I'll stop being nice....I think it lacks class; instead it seems crass and void of beauty.

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Posted in reply to the post by joybird:

Still seems way overly large to me. Compare to Guayaki sign.

Joy

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While I was getting a coffee at Hardcore today I was talking with the folks behind the bar, and one is a major fan of the genuinely artistic kinds of young people's "graffiti art" done on everything from the skateboard rink in town to railroad cars.

This art is genuinely industrial in origin and form. The words "The Barlow" and even "Sebastopol" could be worked into it.

Odd as the suggestion will first seem, and I admit I feel a little odd in even making it, because it is light years different from the art I do, (which is detailed pen and ink) excellent work of that nature would

1. Be far more memorable and enjoyable than the designs we are being urged to accept

2. Does not deny the Barlow's industrial architecture, but rather exhibits an art form uniquely wedded to it.

3. Would be a eye catching addition to those entering Sebastopol on 12 from the east.

4. Has a kind of resonance with the fine metal sculpture our town is becoming noted for.

Those who immediately throw up their hands thinking of gang graffiti should take the time to think about the more well done examples of this art- which is of a nature that it could change frequently as new art is added to it. I would suggest that those who specialize in doing quality work of this sort at least be asked for their proposals. No commitment- but see what our younger generation can come up with. We might be very pleasantly surprised.

examples: https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1479&bih=917&q=good+railroad+car+art&oq=good+railroad+car+art&gs_l=img.12...1984.5877.0.8295.21.9.0.12.12.0.136.929.6j3.9.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.62.img..7.14.942.D6SuP6K1wPM#tbm=isch&q=graffiti+art&imgdii=_https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/...s/cleardot.gif

Hi all,
Just want to say I think the big yellow B looks like a sports team symbol. I'd make a motion to remove the Yellow B and go with simple, architectural lettering consistent with the buildings' sleek profile.
Cheers,
Lucia

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...2_13-09-14.png

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Especially seeing how that tree in the Sebastopol Liquor Store parking lot will be blocking the "B" to the word "Barlow". It would be wiser to place it further to the left so it is clearly read with out future request for a tree removal to assist with the Barlow's "aesthetics". :Yinyangv:

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Posted in reply to the post by Sweet1:

Just want to say I think the big yellow B looks like a sports team symbol. I'd make a motion to remove the Yellow B and go with simple, architectural lettering consistent with the buildings' sleek profile.

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That B may be their logo, and I bet they paid plenty for it.....or maybe not. Graphic artists usually charge big bucks for simple logos like this. I remember when I had an ad agency business, we charged $5,000 for a simple logo and font that was created on the computer.

This font reminds me of a newspaper masthead or a feed store. It just seems so incongruent with Sebastopol, and other signage around town. If they have to stick with it because it's their logo font, maybe if they put a frame around it, with yellow in the background, like their logo, it might help. And smaller would be an improvement! Half the size would still be legible.

The problem with graffiti art is that it's not that legible. I always thought that about "Hardcore". When designing signage, it doesn't seem wise to sacrifice legibility for creativity. It is common to get very creative with signage, logos, etc. and I think it has more to do with ego gratification than having a legible result. But don't we want to be able to read signs? Can anyone relate to seeing a sign that was beautiful, but you couldn't read the words? I see it all the time. It seems counter productive.

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Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega:

While I was getting a coffee at Hardcore today I was talking with the folks behind the bar, and one is a major fan of the genuinely artistic kinds of young people's "graffiti art" done on everything from the skateboard rink in town to railroad cars. ...https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/...s/cleardot.gif

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That's a valid point Shandi, but some is much more legible than others. That is why I linked to those many examples and also why, if I were exploring this possibility, I'd ask anyone making a proposal to submit a mock up so legibility would be obvious (or not). If it's hard to read I'd agree that would make it a deal breaker.

Ironically, my conversation at Hardcore arose because their daily quiz was done in graffiti art that was both well done and hard to read!

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

The problem with graffiti art is that it's not that legible.....

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Part of the problem with small mock ups on paper is that when you're close to something it's usually more legible. The best part of the BARLOW mock up is that it's sized to scale, so we can really see what it will look like.

In my print/ad business I had people coming in with their mock ups for business cards, bumper stickers, signs, etc. Many times the art was larger than it would ultimately be. So, I took their art, and reduced to the actual size, so they could see how illegible it would be. I never just took an order without this kind of evaluation, as many printers and sign makers do. They're not concerned with the resulting legibility. You can see examples of this everywhere.

The customer who develops their own artwork is even more attached to it, so it can be difficult convincing them. I found that my visual method really worked, so they could SEE the truth! With bumper stickers, I'd get it to the size they wanted, then go outside with them, and tape it the car bumper, and have them walk back several feet to see what it would look like. This always worked!

So, having an actual size mock up is really the way to go, and easy enough to do on the computer.

I just have my doubts as to how much the community input will be considered.

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Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega:

I'd ask anyone making a proposal to submit a mock up so legibility would be obvious (or not). If it's hard to read I'd agree that would make it a deal breaker.

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Wise words, I agree that any design seriously considered by presented so we can see it the same way we see the current mock-ups. I also have my doubts any of this discussion will matter. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. We might as well make the case for considering alternatives.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

Part of the problem with small mock ups on paper is that when you're close to something it's usually more legible. ...

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I think the current design for the Barlow signage (the design - as in the font and the B, not the size and placement) is in keeping with the general design aesthetic of the Barlow development. I know many of you don't appreciate that aesthetic, but again I think it is in keeping with it's light industrial + art nature (which seems to be slipping away - who wudda thought?).

The Design Review Board will be meeting tomorrow, Wednesday, at 4pm at the city hall (next to the library). If you are interested in this matter I suggest you attend. The agenda is here and the staff report is here and here.

I presume the meeting will concentrate on the size and placement of the signs rather than the "design" of the logo. If you are interested in trying to change the logo, that's more of a question for the developer, Barney Aldridge. You can reach him via the Contact Us option on the Barlow website.

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Posted in reply to the post by Gus diZerega:

I also have my doubts any of this discussion will matter. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. We might as well make the case for considering alternatives.

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I, too, agree it is too large! And I, too, suggested art installation(s) to attract attention, not distract from the very first impression many people will have of The Barlow and related businesses.
Rev. BE :heart:

Much of the unpaid consulting work on this thread, in well-meaning attempts to apply personal/communal aesthetics to commercial space, is concerned with how a blank space can be filled. Wherever it falls on the spectrum of unabashed commercial signage on one end to community-based "art" in service to marketing on the other, what happens on the walls of that metal building will contribute to the incessant visual clutter that makes up most of the Hwy. 12 approach to town.

What is the need the owners of the space are trying to fill with this that couldn't be accomplished with bolder sculptural signage at the entrance to the parking lot in front of Community Market? It already has the "B", a list of businesses and is relatively kind on the eyes as these things go. They could simply add "The Barlow" as a text element, even make it all a bit bigger, and it would still function properly as signage that works with the visual flow and scale of the street.

As for the building itself, I don't envy the Barlow management having to navigate the shoals of community tastemakers deciding what they can and cannot do with the property they own. Still, they kinda brought this on themselves.

That said, I am extremely leery of any "graffiti-style" mural, and for a variety of reasons. Primarily because the thing that makes graffiti interesting is its "unofficial" (i.e. criminal) nature. At least the old-school tagging and throw-ups from the 70's. Graffiti has, like so many things, succumbed to the old Warhol dictum "if you repeat something often enough, it loses its meaning". "Graffiti-style", taught in schools, shown and sold in galleries, and marketed as fonts to designers, continues to stagnate in its content, methods of depiction and execution. The few exceptions to this are Banksy and his school of politically-charged, issue based defacers, who I imagine wouldn't be caught dead (or otherwise) creating "approved" work.

The other part of a graffiti-based sign is that, like all graffiti, it encourages defacement. Needless to say this is an unwelcome cost to any business, and it will create even more jarring clutter to the area.

To a lesser extent, the same could be said of another mural. While I really, really like the Coyote mural downtown (and maybe even more it's flip side on the inside wall of Sprint Copy Center - if you haven't seen it, go check it out), I know that the image is not for inherently commercial purposes. It is also, as murals go, contemplative in nature as well as content, and has miraculously managed to somehow avoid being tagged. The process for achieving a similar result on the side of the Barlow building is iffy, if similar sites in other towns are any indication. Incorporating "art" into commercial signage is difficult, at best. At least for the art.

And the idea of using "Art" (you know, art with a capital A) virtually insures mediocrity. The commissioning of the art will be for works that serve the interests of The Barlow, period. Look at almost any office park, shopping center, or commercial building in the United States, the sculpture outside and the artwork inside is intended to decorate the space. And god help us, not another Amiot sculpture.

Publicly-funded artworks often are more visually interesting and conceptually challenging because they are free from commercial restraints. Not always, certainly, but more often than those on a more privately-funded footing.

But this is a commercial property, subject to malleable community laws. And while I would certainly prefer a blank wall, gently falling to the laws of wabi-sabi, simultaneously softening the area and enhancing the presence of the structures around it, I know there will only be a message to look at.

You are here. Here is ours. Parking for customers only.


:sunshine::juggle::argument:

(Elizabeth here) --

Ted, thanks for this thoughtful and articulate post. When I think of delightful visual art in conjunction with Sebastopol, I think of the Coyote mural on the blank side of Odd Fellows, and the mural on the library parking lot's Main-Street side, and of course all the wonderful little vignettes on everything from Mimi's to Rosemary's Garden to the carp swimmming up from the Cookie Company. I understand your comment about "graffiti" and "illegal", but none of the things I have just listed smack of that. I have often bought a greeting card from a local artist just because it's (a) local, and (b) makes me smile. To me, that's the essence of what I love about Sebastopol.

And let us all raise a glass to Patrick Amiot, who has made this all go viral.

Quirky, colorful, accessible, friendly, warm. The murals are more curvaceous, while the metal art is more angles and edges, but both have a sense of humor and make you want to hug the maker.

Can the Barlow have a sense of humor? The current signage is sleek and spare (and doesn't tell me where to find ANYTHING), but it fits the buildings. That's OK by me. We're a multi-faceted little town here. But it seems that part of the wild resistance to Chase/CVS was their corporate sterile face. An honest grin, wrinkles and all, trumps a Botox mask, as far as I'm concerned.

Aside from the ginormous size, I don't have a problem with the proposed font and yellow logo of the Barlow. I think it lends a contemporary air - clean and modern. I think the above photo example of the smallest size is good. It's not the sign - it's the building that is ugly. It really needs some trees, some vines, some life! What this big metal box surrounded by a parking lot lacks is soul. Warehouses that morph into other uses/businesses are aesthetically successful when it happens organically over time - years of people leaving their creative fingerprints on the space. The Barlow is all ass backwards. New metal buildings trying to "funkify' overnight - like some over sized Martha Stewart "shabby chic" project...

Wow, this is a long thread.
What happed at the mtg?
I miss the beautiful mural that used to grace the entrance to the Guayaki Cafe.
Did the DRB require that to be removed or barlow mgmt?
Putting back up the original font without the circle in the original place seems most appropriate to me.
Otherwise, just say no to what they proposed.
I don't think a counter proposal is necessary or appreciated.

The Barlow sign came before the DRB this past Wednesday. Three alternative sizes and locations for the large logo were proposed for consideration. After considerable discussion, the Board denied the application in a split vote 3 to 2.

After hearing from lots of people in this forum and others in the community including in my neighborhood downtown, I voted against the proposal. My main concern was the potential this had to affect the character of town in a way that many may find objectionable. Although I personally like the idea of large scale graphics, I am not sure the majority of the community agrees with my personal taste in this case, so felt that opposing it was the correct thing to do.

I thank all of you who shared your opinions on this forum and through private correspondence.

Ted

For the signage to be truly appropriate and organic with the architecture of the Barlow, I would suggest that it consist of huge block letters, the full length of the tin walls, saying SARDINES.

To placate nature-minded folks, they might add some murals of tiny fish delighted with the prospect of being eaten.

(I'm proposing this only in a mid-morning impulse of snark. The fad for "Industrial Chic" design irks me, but I have a high tolerance for irk.)

Cheers—
Conrad

i think perhaps you have divined the meaning of barlow. and the fish, brilliant! are we not just fodder for corporate feeding? wither or not, we are eager to (be) consume/d...

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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:

For the signage to be truly appropriate and organic with the architecture of the Barlow, I would suggest that it consist of huge block letters, the full length of the tin walls, saying SARDINES....

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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:

For the signage to be truly appropriate and organic with the architecture of the Barlow, I would suggest that it consist of huge block letters, the full length of the tin walls, saying SARDINES.

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mmm.. I did eat some very tasty sardines there once. And it's very strange that somehow they are now a food fad, but the roasted brussels sprouts were awesome too...

YAY finally someone remembered the GUYAKI Mural! It WAS beautiful , and I was appalled when I heard Barlow required it to be removed so they could set a new "post industrial tone" for Sebastopol. YUK to that kind of yuppy thinking or Bauhaus,whatever its simply phony art I dislike the super practical architecture ,Cold impersonal and almost prison camp, If it wasn't for the nice gardening. I get that its become a cool new place for things like community market and the bakery etc ,we adapt. and what IS that huge fireplace? ostentatious three tons of masonry for the homeless to keep warm? could build a log cabin around it???

The current "sign" is adequate and also ugly I always think that perhaps Patrick ought to come down at night with a can opener and change it into one of those Cartoon "Minions" and how appropriate .because it's "minions" we've become who can not stand up to corporate values,as I see it Sebastopol compromised a chance to have something that could have been a landmark of amazing buildings integrated with nature,and instead got an alter to mans power over nature.
Bring back the Guyaki Mural!! and $&^*76^ the corporate needs.

I think we should get Rolin! who is rumored to have decorated the OLD Hardcore after its abandonment , to re decorate the entire Barlow I will supply all the paint and art materials necessary ! there needs to be towers and mosaics ,and spiral staircases that go no where, and a few airplanes or upside down busses

Unfortunately that would REALLY put Sebastopol on the map,and its hard enough to get in to town west bound on a weekend already , perhaps barlow will put in a heliport??
In my humble opinion ,barlow has lowered the bar...and by the way..Isn't that kind of a dumn name..they should have called it the Morris! didn't a guy named Morris found Sebastopol?

what happened at the meeting? lets guess... corporate $$ leads the way??object all you want ,here comes the big bang sign
oh
I have a B K in art,62 years producing and teaching art, I have been a sign-maker ,Currently playologist and palace builder.

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Posted in reply to the post by AJL:

...What happed at the mtg?
I miss the beautiful mural that used to grace the entrance to the Guayaki Cafe.
Did the DRB require that to be removed or barlow mgmt?...

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Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog:

YAY finally someone remembered the GUYAKI Mural! It WAS beautiful...

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Wow. So THAT's what happened to the beautiful mural? That really sucks.
Well - once California legalizes recreational pot (and it will...) some of those empty, unrented warehouses would make some awesome grow houses, not to mention cannabis tasting rooms...

Yeah and what happened to the Patric Amiot sculpture that used to sit on that corner by the amazing tree?
I suggest that sculptures and fun paintings all around is our nature,more that "oh wow a half industrialized cow and chicken farm town". And where is the Native American presence in all this?

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Posted in reply to the post by Victoria Street:

Wow. So THAT's what happened to the beautiful mural? That really sucks...

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Well done Ted;

I like huge graphics too ,like an enormous alligator would be good ,or a relining female big foot.

But i set the bar to low

N

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Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog:

Yeah and what happened to the Patric Amiot sculpture ...

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I am late to this thread and so I might be sharing thoughts that have already been discussed, but usually architects and planners for this type of development (as it was described and touted, not necessarily executed), have a plan for the public space including signage, art and landscaping.

While I am far from a neocon when it comes to public spaces, I don't understand how this design enhances Sebastopol's identity at all or how it got approved. Public art is an important piece as is signage--visual design. It needs to be congruent with the overall architecture of the site AND the values and identity of the community. To me, there is a design disconnect between the Barlow and the community and I am wondering how this will be resolved.
Just my 2 cents!

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Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog:

Yeah and what happened to the Patrick Amiot sculpture that used to sit on that corner by the amazing tree?
I suggest that sculptures and fun paintings all around is our nature,more that "oh wow a half industrialized cow and chicken farm town". And where is the Native American presence in all this?

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Apparently the signage applicants don't understand the meaning of "no" -
They are appealing to the City Council tomorrow - May 5th - item #4 [click for appeal document]

And.. in order to see the vote swing in their fairway the council will need to allow TWO sign exceptions to meet the zoning provisions.

The DBR comments and analysis are on page 3.
This may further yet warrant some public attendance and comment towards the City Council.
The agenda noted there have been no public comments against the appeal application as of yet.

I'm all for seeing a brilliant mural on that building !
Be sure to write the City Council your thoughts as shared in this discussion thread!
:waccosmile:

As the previous post stated, this item is being appealed to the City Council tomorrow (Tuesday), May 5 at 6:00 pm. I urge you all to show up and let your Council know your thoughts. You know my opinion ... these huge signs will essentially rename our town "THE BARLOW". I've had my turn to speak. It's time for the Council to hear from you, their community.

Thanks,

Ted

After the DRB decision, and because Portland has a prior claim to "Keep _____ Weird", how about a large banner that says--"Keep Sebastopol Elitist and Entitled"???

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

The Barlow sign came before the DRB this past Wednesday. Three alternative sizes and locations for the large logo were proposed for consideration. After considerable discussion, the Board denied the application in a split vote 3 to 2....

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