New Large Winery Proposed for Hwy 12 at Llano Road!

There is new large winery being proposed for 5150 Sebastopol Rd (Hwy 12) just east of Llano Road. The owner is Joseph Wagner of the WagnerFamilyofWine that founded the Caymus Vineyards of Napa 40 years ago.

It calls for a maximum production capacity of 500,000 cases of wine and 250,000 cases of distilled spirits . That would make it about the 15th largest winery in the county (see sonoma county winery approvals by capacity here)

The project includes over 85,000 square feet of buildings and 87 parking spaces. They are asking for 58 promotional events a year, including 6 with 300 person maximum and 4 with 600 person maximum that include outdoor amplified music.

Note that the entrance to the winery crosses the Joe Rodota multi-use trail. There is existing driveway that crosses the trail, but this project will make much heavier use of it.

The Sebastopol City Council will review their application at their Feb 3rd meeting and send their comments to the county the next day. If you have any comments or concerns be sure to attend the meeting and/or send your comments to the council. Of course, as always, I invite you to post your comments here as well. I'm sure at least a few the council members will be monitoring this discussion.

Here are the email addresses for the council:

[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

Do we need another winery? NO. The widened bridge on Highway 12 coming into Sebastopol is going to do enough damage to the Laguna. The environmental consequences of such a huge winery would be tremendous, as would its impact on traffic.

I have much more confidence in the Sebastopol City Council than in the Sonoma County Board of Supervisors to challenge this application. Attending the Feb. 3 meeting, which would be reported in the news would be important to get the word out that there would be significant challenge of this Laguna-threatening winery.
Shepherd

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

There is new large winery being proposed for 5150 Sebastopol Rd (Hwy 12) just east of Llano Road. ...

The Sebastopol City Council will review their application at their Feb 3rd meeting and send their comments to the county the next day. If you have any comments or concerns be sure to attend the meeting and/or send your comments to the council. Of course, as always, I invite you to post your comments here as well. I'm sure at least a few the council members will be monitoring this discussion. ...

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Do we need another winery?

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I don't see what "need" has to do with it. I do a lot of things the world doesn't need, and it's usually nobody's business.

If the goal is to return that part of the laguna to its natural state, then even things we need shouldn't be allowed there.

Shepherd, I don't know what we would do without your quick response to new considerations. This project sounds much like the WalMart expansion in RP. It looks to dwarf ANYTHING in town. What concessions would they need to make in order to get approval? I believe you are correct and we should show up to voice our early opinions about this threat to the Laguna and our way of life. Thanks for BEing a good neighbor!
Rev. BE :heart:

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Do we need another winery? NO. ...

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Following is more information about the proposed winery on Highway 12, from Rue Furch, former member of the Sonoma County Planning Commission. Comments need to be into the County at the address below by Feb. 4.

From: Rue Furch:

This is a request for a Use Permit and an Administrative Design Review for a new winery and distillery with an annual maximum production capacity of 500,000 cases of wine and 250,000 gallons of distilled spirits.


The project includes 57,000 sq ft of winery production area, 19,000 sq ft of distillery production area, 3,800 sq ft of administration area, and 6,200 sq ft of hospitality areas, with an outdoor tank farm, a covered crush pad area, fruit receiving area, and truck scale with 400 sq ft scale house, and public tasting and tours 7 days a week from 10 am to 5 pm with retail sales of wine and distilled spirits; and 58 agricultural promotional events per year (48 with 100 guests, 6 with 300 guests, and 4 with 600 guests) and participation in 4 industry wide events on 67.84 acres. The parcel is not under a Land Conservation Act contract.

The proposal is located at 5150 Sebastopol Road, Santa Rosa. The address is a little confusing, because this location is west of Sebastopol Road in Santa Rosa south of Hwy 12. The site was the former home and dairy of the Medeiros family, and subsequent uses.

Please respond to project planner, Traci Tesconi at [email protected] by February 4, 2015.

Feel free to forward this to anyone you think may be interested.

Have a great day, and thanks for noticing. This is truly getting out of hand.
Rue

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

The project includes 57,000 sq ft of winery production area, 19,000 sq ft of distillery production area, 3,800 sq ft of administration area, and 6,200 sq ft of hospitality areas, with an outdoor tank farm, a covered crush pad area, fruit receiving area, and truck scale with 400 sq ft scale house, and public tasting and tours 7 days a week from 10 am to 5 pm with retail sales of wine and distilled spirits; and 58 agricultural promotional events per year (48 with 100 guests, 6 with 300 guests, and 4 with 600 guests) and participation in 4 industry wide events on 67.84 acres.

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sounds like quite a few people will be working there too. And they could even commute by bike.

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The parcel is not under a Land Conservation Act contract.

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so why again is this a bad thing?

Industrial wineries and vineyards--with their monocrop--threaten humans, other critters, and the environment in many ways. Human, animal, and plant life NEED the basics, such as water, food, and shelter. By over-populating the planet with people and our needs, we threaten our survival, as well as that of other life forms. A moderate amount of wine is certainly appropriate. Wine rules Sonoma County, which can no longer claim to be fully democratic.

I bought my farm over two decades ago, before the price of arable land went up, due to the wine barons. Few young people today can afford to live in Sonoma County, much less farm. Even many locals need to leave in order to find places to rent, since prices are too high here.

The Laguna de Santa Rosa is a unique international environment. It is already polluted by Sebastopol and Santa Rosa wastes. Thoreau wrote that "swamps" protect small towns and the surrounding environment. The Laguna is more than a resource--it is a jewel, a treasure. It should not be further degraded by yet another industrial operation, the consequences of which would be huge on the wildlife. I could go on and on, but I wanted to get a prompt response out, and let other people add their concerns.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

sounds like quite a few people will be working there too. And they could even commute by bike.so why again is this a bad thing?

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Industrial wineries and vineyards--with their monocrop--threaten humans, other critters, and the environment in many ways.... By over-populating the planet with people and our needs, we threaten our survival, as well as that of other life forms..... Few young people today can afford to live in Sonoma County, much less farm. Even many locals need to leave in order to find places to rent, since prices are too high here.

... The Laguna is more than a resource--it is a jewel, a treasure. It should not be further degraded by yet another industrial operation, the consequences of which would be huge on the wildlife.

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ok, so it's not just this project - it's more that you feel any winery expansion is inappropriate. And that any development near the laguna is equally inappropriate. I think you're undercutting your position with the rent argument, though; a winery in the area will provide more jobs than it will raise rents - you're not implying a winery there will result in conversion of working-class housing to something that serves some more elite group, are you? True, there isn't enough low-cost housing but that's a bad reason to oppose creation of more jobs in the area. I think the wine business is a good one for jobs; better than orchards or electronic assembly shops.

I have some sympathy with the desire to keep this part of the county diversified-rural and low population. I just don't think it's an easy call. Light industry, which wineries are, is to me far preferable to more retail. I've said before that I like the southern entrance to Santa Rosa, with the proliferation of small businesses. Also, I don't share the displeasure with tourism that's so common here. We live in an area extremely attractive to tourists; if I didn't live here, I'd visit. And I do visit other areas that some of the locals probably wish they could keep for themselves. Maybe if given the opportunity to do it over, it would be great to leave vast swaths of the laguna undeveloped. There's a big wetlands between Davis and Sacramento that must have been beautiful before it was similarly partitioned.

My first response to this thread was a question about 'why this development' is bad. It doesn't sound like the specifics of this proposal are really the issue - it's more of a general objection, right?

I seem to remember that over in the Napa Valley they nixed any more wineries several years ago, because the whole area had suffered from, among other stuff, the 18-wheel traffic necessary to run a vineyard and winery.....

So far, I have only one big objection to this project, and that's the impact on the multi-use trail.

There are 40 acres of vineyards currently at the site which are irrigated with treated waste water from Santa Rosa. That vineyard will remain and will continue to be irrigated with waste water and no new vineyards would be added. There's nothing stated about their farming practices. I note that this week's North Bay Business Journal has an article called "Sonoma County grape growers release 100-year sustainability plan" so they appear to be paying at least some attention to their environment impact.

This project is really about the replacement and moderate enlargement of the already developed part of the site, along with the upgrade and conversion of a small single family residence. There is also a significant amount of parking being added. I'd want the parking to be permeable.

They state they will be using water from the onsite well for production. I think a careful analysis should be made of the net change of demand placed upon the existing well.

I think the impact of the substantial increased traffic that crosses the Joe Rodota trail is both a safety hazard and a significant reduction of the pleasant use of this part of the trail.

If this project is to go forward, I'd want to see the impact to the trail be mitigated by increased safety measures (Signage? Yellow crossbar added to the trail, like where it crosses Llano road?) While this will help to make it safer, it also reduces the quality of the experience of using the trail. To offset the impact of the public trail, I think a sizable financial contribution should be made to create or improve multi-use trails elsewhere in west county.

From the their application (which is quite accessible)

Existing Conditions

The site is generally flat with gentle (2% to 5%) slopes towards an existing drainage that runs
through the project site from east to west.The site contains three existing ponds
(approximately 2 acres) with associated equipment, three existing well, eight existing buildings
and approximately 40 acres of vineyard.The existing buildings are dilapidated and are a
detriment to the visual character of the area.

The buildings total almost 30,000 square feet and consist of:

x Single family residence approximately 1,200 square feet
x Concrete block building formerly used as a milking barn approximately 2,500 square feet
x Wood and steel building formerly used as a hay barn approximately 13,000 square feet
x Open sided pole barn used for cattle loafing and now for storage of agricultural
equipment approximately 12,000 square feet
x Well house approximately 450 square feet

The site is zoned LEA 100 B6 Z, F2 SR VOH, Land Extensive Agriculture with a minimum lot size of
100 acres.The zoning overlays consist of: no secondary unit allowance, floodplain, scenic
resource and valley oak habitat districts.The land uses to the south and east are rural
agricultural operations, to the west are commercial industrial properties and to the north is the
Joe Rodota Trail and Highway 12.

The existing vineyards are irrigated by treated wastewater provided by the City of Santa Rosa.
The existing ponds were formerly manure ponds for the dairy operation.The eastern most
pond has been converted to an irrigation pond to store the treated wastewater from the City.

Proposed Project

The proposed Dairyman project will remove the existing agricultural structures and replace
them with facilities that will be able to produce and market 500,000 cases of wine and 250,000
gallons of distilled spirits annually showcasing agricultural products such as apples and grapes
sourced from the local area primarily from the local area highlighting Sonoma, Napa, Lake and
Mendocino Counties.The existing single family residence will be remodeled and converted to a
two unit marketing accommodation and new residence will be built.The facility will have 32 full
time employees, 15 part time employees, and 5 seasonal employees.

Summary of Proposed Buildings

The proposed buildings will be setback from Highway 12 a minimum of 200 feet, will be a
maximum height of 45 feet and will provide screening of the tanks and receiving area from view.
The two large blending tanks are taller than the production building but are obscured from view
by trees in the foreground and by the production building.Landscaping will be used to screen
parking and buildings from Highway 12.

The agrarian style and color pallet of the buildings are in concert with the surrounding
agricultural area.The proposed lighting will be low and downward cast in order to avoid glare.
The lot coverage of the proposed facilities is below the 5% maximum allowance (see A101).The
winery production buildings will approximately 57,000 square feet in total and include the
following (for references see A102):

x 33,000 square feet for process equipment, barrel storage, case goods storage, bottling
and truck docks (2A and 2B)
x 5,000 square feet of cold storage (2C)
x 19,000 square feet of stainless steel tanks (2D)
The administrative building will be approximately 4,800 square feet and attached to the winery
building (3A).
The distillery buildings (4A, 4B, and 4C) will be approximately 19,000 square feet and attached
to the west of the winery building.
The hospitality buildings will be approximately 6,200 square feet in total and include the
following:
x 3,900 square feet tasting room with commercial kitchen, offices, restrooms and storage
space (1A)
x 1,100 square feet of detached tasting areas connected to the hospitality building by a
covered walkway (1B and 1C)
x 1,200 square feet marketing accommodation building with two units on the west edge
of the proposed improvements (1D). These accommodations are intended for use as
overnight accommodations for private guests such as distributors to promote Dairyman
products.No commercial use is proposed.

Exterior areas will include an exterior tank farm behind the production buildings, grape receiving
area, crush pad with shade cover, and a scale with an adjacent 400 square foot scale house.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

I seem to remember that over in the Napa Valley they nixed any more wineries several years ago, because the whole area had suffered from, among other stuff, the 18-wheel traffic necessary to run a vineyard and winery.....

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I believe (Sara) that you hit the nail on the head!
One hint of advice: Negotiate to mitigate.

I just received the agenda for the Feb. 3, Tues., meeting of the Seb. City Council at the Youth Annex on Morris, next to the Community Center. The winery is item # 7, under "Public Hearing: Discussion & Action." This means that the Council will make a decision on what to send to the Board of Supervisors, due the next day.

Each person present can speak for up to 3 minutes. The meeting itself starts at 6 p.m. There is one other Public Hearing before the winery, as well as a public comment time at the start of the meeting, when anyone can speak on any item not on the agenda. My rough guess would be that this item might start sometime between 6:30 and 7 p.m. I hope that a lot of people will go and testify. I will be at a Farm Guild meeting nearby at the Grange, which starts at 6 p.m., so I will do my best to be there for part of the discussion.

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

Negotiate to mitigate? That's how we got the Barlow. They first ask for too much and they don't get it, after many lengthy hearings and public concern. Then it comes back again, modest this time, and we're tired and looking at expensive litigation, and by golly, here it is, smaller but still huge. I'd say on this one: NO NEGOTIATION. :thumbsup:

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On December 30, 2014, Economist Martin Armstrong wrote "Wine Industry Confirms
Same Trend in Energy" which appears to be entering a "massive deflationary vortex
of economic decline."


https://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/...end-in-energy/


Armstrong has an extraordinary track record of economic predictions. Of course, it
remains to be seen. Commodity surpluses are growing around the world and prices
are dropping as demand falls off. It's conceivable, in the US we are at the peak of
the bull market in the wine industry and are first entering a significant contraction
and I mean, significant.

Bad bad bad for many reasons, but for me two stand out: 1. impact on the trail. 2. We don't want community separators filling up with this kind of thing. Open space means open space and many people worked long and hard to keep our county from being filled up with development, not the least of which was Bill Kortum. If he were here he'd be meeting with people to come up with a strategy to defeat this sucker. Not letting this happen is a way to honor his efforts.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

sounds like quite a few people will be working there too. And they could even commute by bike.so why again is this a bad thing?

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Barry, you will be hearing many objections to this monster.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

So far, I have only one big objection to this project, and that's the impact on the multi-use trail....

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Barry, you will be hearing many objections to this monster.

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I expect so. However so far, there hasn't been many specific complaints or issues raised.

If you guys want to stop this you better come up with some good reasons fast!

So far is seems like generic "whatever it is, I'm against it" :wink:

No Barry, this is not NIMBY. This is about keeping the integrity of open space and community separators. This is so new that people will have to take some time to analyze it further. The first reaction of NO is not frivolous, but from the experiemce of years of seeing these kinds of proposals which ofter succed in spite of public opposition.
I think our secret weapon, a very queen of wonky analysis, will be coming up with a succinct analyisis. And we'll see if our esteemed 5th District super can cast the pivitol no vote if it comes to that.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

I expect so. However so far, there hasn't been many specific complaints issued raised.

If you guys want to stop this you better come up with some good reasons fast!

So far is seems like generic "whatever it is, I'm against it" :wink:

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Dian has suggested a site check this Sunday for the winery proposed for 5150 Sebastopol Rd., which is Highway 12, slightly East of Llano Road. I would be available and suggest we meet there at 2:30, which would be after the Sebastopol Farmers' Market. Who else would be available at that time? There could also be additional times for small group or personal visits. I think that checking out the scene would be helpful for any testimony at the Seb. City Council this coming Tuesday and for when the application comes before the Board of Sups.

I have already drafted what I plan to say Tuesday. Artistotle writes that there are three kinds of appeals that can be made in speeches: logos (reason), pathos (emotion), and ethos (ethics). There are environmental scientists whom I have been with at recent meetings about the Laguna. I will leave it up to them and others to make the logos appeals.

I will be making appeals to pathos and ethos. I am a member of the Cunningham Marsh Preservation Committee, which fought off a major subdivision in the Marsh uplands about 15 years ago. Next to the Laguna, the Cunningham Marsh, in whose uplands I farm, is the second most unique wetlands in Sonoma County. It is part of the Blucher Creek Watershed, which supplies the Laguna with its best water, and is a tributary to the Russian River Watershed.

I plan to start with the brief poem "The Peace of Wild Things" by elder farmer Wendell Berry. I currently plan to then refer to Thoreau's comment that "swamps" help protect small towns. "Let a thousand flowers bloom."

Two important articles on the wine industry appear in the Press Democrat today. One is about a developer from China buying a large parcel in Sonoma Valley for millions of dollars, the link to which follows. The other is about wine baron Paul Hobbs agreeing to pay a $100,000 fine for damages he has done. He was threatened with a fine of millions of dollars. Sonoma County is increasingly becoming a magnet for the rich, whose wealth does not trickle down.

Chinese developer buys Sonoma Valley resort property

The $41 million purchase, of a 186-acre undeveloped site on the east side of Highway 12 near Lawndale Road, includes rights to develop a luxury resort and winery, along with a restaurant and almost a dozen high-end homes.

Barry, surmising that this new behemoth will degrade more of our community is NOT "whatever it is, I'm against it."

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

...So far is seems like generic "whatever it is, I'm against it" :wink:

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Sad to say, Barry, but progress can rarely ever be stopped. It’s (almost) unconstitutional to tell a landowner what they can or can’t do with their own piece of the American Dream, (Property). But, with all these large venues congregating here, they can easily pay for some needed, major infrastructures to support their industries, and the hotels that will profit as well. Everyone has their dues to pay, and these large scale industries can pay and write these costs off too. Think of all the water they will use while everyone else had to kill their lawns or plants to conserve water, but not them.

Also, as Sara S.clearly mentioned the “traffic” gridlock will become even more of a smog polluting issue with Sebastopol becoming a Destination during the summer months combined with the concerts on the River, etc. A trade off, compromise (from them) could help to mitigate this growing concern and problem at this entrance to both the River and the Pacific Ocean.

Yes, it is difficult to stop or even slow down "progress." On the other hand, there was Bill Kortum. He stopped the powerful PG&E in its tracks as it sought to put in a nuclear reactor plant in Bodega Bay. For more on this important history, the Sonoma County Museum may still have its show up on that. What a disaster to SoCo, especially West County, if Bill and allies had not stopped that progress.

As a former U.S. Army officer, I was one of millions who helped stop the American War on Vietnam. There are many examples where the people prevail, and some of those persons now live in Sonoma County.

Now it is up to us to stop this industrial alcohol processing factory from going onto Highway 12, thus damaging the wildlife and worsening traffic. That water should be for all, not just the wealthy.

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

Sad to say, Barry, but progress can rarely ever be stopped. It’s (almost) unconstitutional to tell a landowner what they can or can’t do with their own piece of the American Dream, (Property). But, ...

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One (or more) things to consider is that there is no guarantee that these industries will hire strictly from the Sebastopol Workforce. And, looking at today’s job market, the wages are not sustainable either. (Although) they all paint a rosy picture.
But, one big concern: (said tongue in cheek here) is I am positive there will be no, none, DUIs from these industries, nor any workplace accidents, so (positively speaking) they nor their patrons and employees would ever require the services of a local hospital either…

China has major problems with shadow banking and rehypothecation. Their stimulus program to build infrastructure in the form of malls, apartment buildings and so forth is an epic disaster and I believe has yet to fully play out. Their growth for 2014 is way down and will continue to fall. Wealthy Chinese are wanting to get their money out of China and are buying up houses and businesses. They're doing this everywhere not just in the US. If China gets desperate enough they might try to repatriot money and force the hand of many Chinese to sell homes and businesses to answer such a call.


My previous comment still holds. This expanding bull market in the wine industry can't and won't continue. When a decline ensues, it will be so significant, that people will still be talking about it a hundred years from now.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Yes, it is difficult to stop or even slow down "progress."

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Normally, I am not an anti-growth guy, but the scale of this project seems way beyond reasonable. 500,000 cases is a lot of vino. For the record, I was a builder for many years, but fought the O'reilly project as being out of scale (note: only 1/2 was built, it could be twice as big) and fought for minimum lot sizes in West County so I have been on both sides of this fence.

Since this site is already degraded from years of use, the use as a more commercial operation is not troubling.

My concerns would be:

Traffic: Putting that much traffic onto a high speed major highway without a stop light that is only two lanes is very problematic in my view, especially with events. Even turn out lanes do not solve this issue.

Waste Water: There will need to be on site treatment, which basically means ground water infiltration of LOTS of waste water.

The trail would be impacted.

While we have lots of wineries in the unincorporated areas, in my view, these should really be done in incorporated areas where there is infrastructure for water and waste.

Dan

At the moment, the greatest concern should be water. Wineries and vineyards are digging very deep wells. Deep enough to drain the aquifirs which we all depend on. In drought years, it's very short-sighted and poor planning to allow this to continue.


Bear in mind, wineries are the beneficiaries of a tax funded infrastructure paid for by the citizens.

On the front page of today's Press Democrat: "Chinese firm buys large Sonoma Valley parcel, including rights to develop it with vacation complex, winery, high-end homes". A long-time resident who was president of an alliance which filed a legal challenge to development a decade ago said "It raises red flags," adding that the developer won't care about the impacts on the local community. "They just want to make money" he said.

You can check out the site on Google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/51...b49941ee?hl=en

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Dian has suggested a site check this Sunday for the winery proposed for 5150 Sebastopol Rd., which is Highway 12, slightly East of Llano Road. I would be available and suggest we meet there at 2:30, which would be after the Sebastopol Farmers' Market. Who else would be available at that time? There could also be additional times for small group or personal visits. I think that checking out the scene would be helpful for any testimony at the Seb. City Council this coming Tuesday and for when the application comes before the Board of Sups....

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In the words of someone famous: OMG!

In the words of The Great One, Jackie Gleason: Scares me, and I ain't scared of nothin'

One question: Where are all those Trailmakers who were so hot to run their trail across Luther's sacred grounds? Are they gonna be down with trucks crossing that trail all day (or however often it actually will happen) and polluting the air there where the driveway will cross the Joe Rodota Trail.

One more question: Would it be possible for them to enter/exit this property from Llano? It would relieve the already-awful traffic problem on #12. Today I saw evidence of a bad crash right near the Grange and the auction place, and I thought I saw some debris at the actual intersection of #116 and #12. Then there was also apparently a stalled car and traffic backed up all the way to the cemetery on Bodega #12.

We are going to have more and more traffic delays for a while with the bridge project; when do these folks intend to start construction? When will the wine/other products be leaving the property in trucks, and what kind of trucks will those be?

I trust the Council will cover these and other kinds of considerations; after all, we voted for them because we believed they had our best interests at heart and would NEVER do anything to "cross" the people of Sebastopol and the thousands of people who travel these two highways and shop in our area.

What's in it for us? What concessions could possibly be offered that would make this a win-win situation? Obviously, a great deal of thought has already been put into this project; lets all be sure our thoughts are included!

Praying for Peace,
Rev. BE

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

I believe (Sara) that you hit the nail on the head!

One hint of advice: Negotiate to mitigate.

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At least one professional planner has agreed to meet with us today, Sun., starting at 2:30 at the proposed site of this huge winery, 5150 Hiway 12, where there is apparently a large cow, near Llano Rd. He could help us craft diverse comments that would appeal to first the Seb. City Council Tues. eve and then the Board of Sups when they have their hearing. Even if you do not plan to speak, please consider coming to either or both of these times to further educate ourselves.

In spite of the wine industry's power, this is one in which the public can prevail. For example, following is what one member of the Seb. Design Review Board has sent to the City Council:

"Greeting: This obscene, greed-based, oversized, frivolous, poorly located project will permanently disrupt the peace of our fine community. It will impose hundreds of vehicles directly onto our already overtaxed Hwy.12, with drivers who are primarily in various states of intoxication. It will, in addition, serve to exacerbate the already burgeoning cultural, moral issue of such excessive obsession towards the consumption of alcohol. It will serve no purpose of substance; the excess profits for the few, the few jobs for our citizens, the modest revenue for our coffers, will never compensate for the damage done to the quality, the welfare, the value of our current community."

However, we can only prevail if we mobilize a large number of people, including those who have not yet participated in attending or speaking at governmental meetings. Your presence could be like the snowflake which starts the avalanche.

Shepherd, thank you so much....

Backed up traffic on Hwy 12? And on Bodega Ave and Bodega Hwy? And just think, folks, this is WINTER! Wait until all the beachgoers get here again.......

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Following is more information about the proposed winery on Highway 12, from Rue Furch, ...

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Thanks for this Info Shepherd. What is not mentioned (by these wineries) is over the years and decades they will make/profit in the Billions, ($ with a B). What will they give back (now) to go forward with their plans?

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Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

Backed up traffic on Hwy 12? And on Bodega Ave and Bodega Hwy? And just think, folks, this is WINTER! Wait until all the beachgoers get here again.......

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5150. police code for crazy one on the loose. Danger to property, danger to others, and danger to themselves... you better call the cops before she goes 5150 on...Urban Dictionary

[They are asking for 58 promotional events a year, including 6 with 300 person maximum and 4 with 600 person maximum that include outdoor amplified music.

Note that the entrance to the winery crosses the Joe Rodota multi-use trail. There is existing driveway that crosses the trail, but this project will make much heavier use of it.]

Is that area (5150) a 2 lane stretch of Hwy 12 with a double yellow line? Isn’t it illegal to cross a double yellow line? Rev BE suggested to move this entrance to Llano Rd. I think that’s a splendid idea!

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

...
[They are asking for 58 promotional events a year, including 6 with 300 person maximum and 4 with 600 person maximum that include outdoor amplified music.

Note that the entrance to the winery crosses the Joe Rodota multi-use trail. There is existing driveway that crosses the trail, but this project will make much heavier use of it.]

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The Impact: many of these concert goers (could be) staying in town at 1 of 3 major hotels: Fairfield, Sebastopol Inn and the Barlow Hotel, (and others). Where will they park all these vehicles, Rvs, etc.?
Will there be Shuttle Service dedicated to/from these Events?

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

Yep, I was thinking of the very same thing: 5150, cop code. That being said, environmental impacts demand no negotiation for this project. I'm really hoping to see reps from the enviro community jumping in on this. A suggestion has been made to request an extension of time for comment as a first formal action of those who oppose this. Surely an EIR will be called for? Haven't had time to peruse the application for the answer. Tuesday night should be interesting! In the meantime, Nancy, a long time seller at the farm market in Sebastopol, has died and we'll be there today at eleven to remember her. And finally, frankly, I'm really concerned about this fourth year of drought we're heading into. Cassandra-like, I think of wildfires, crop failures...

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All excellent points, sealwatcher. An EIR for sure!!!
Sorry to hear about your friend Nancy. My condolences.

The entire world debt has exceeded $223 trillion. Who do we repay?

The world economy is going to experience a dramatic downturn. The US is currently propping everyone up
but this can't continue. The wine industry is not impervious to such a downturn. Liquidity
will dry up (sorry for the pun.) Demand will disappear. It's myopic to think "full steam ahead, captain."
Businesses must have very deep pockets in order to survive a depression. Much of the expansion that
has occurred is less than 20,000 cases. Many of those businesses will be fighting for their lives.

This behemoth is running on the assumption that the economy will not suffer a contraction and that
those very same consumers will be there. I'm hard pressed to think that it will be.

Everything is connected.

Bill Shortridge, a grapegrower, just sent the following to the Sebastopol City Council. It is a good example, in my opinion, of how to appeal to the councilmembers. In a separate email, he said that the issue of all the waste water should also be addressed. Who might be willing to do that Tues.? Hope to see many of you today at the 5150 Hiway 12 site, starting at 2:30 and going on for as long as we need to.

It seems ludicrous that just after experiencing the driest January in California history, we are discussing another brand new winery that will extract at least 16 million gallons of water per year. I say at least, because I used the conservative figure of 10 gallons of water to yield 1 gallon of wine.

Unfortunately, in my research, I have not been able to verify my numbers (my numbers came from LaCrema winery when I worked there six years ago. They have since quadrupled their production). In fact, the lowest numbers I have been able to find are 29 gallons of water to make 1 GLASS of wine.

This includes everything from irrigating the vines to washing the tarmac on the crush pad. Please read this important article by Mike Dunne for the Sac Bee.

https://www.sacbee.com/food-drink/wi...le2622749.html

For this particular project, the proposed 500,000 case production would require 196,000,000 gallons of water per year pulled from the aquifer. That DOES NOT include the 250,000 gallons of distiller spirits they plan to make on top of the planned wine production. And believe me, like every other winery in the state, once established, this winery will seek to increase production.

It is my opinion that the entire state of California should place a moratorium on new vineyard and winery development, not just during the drought, but until we can determine what damage this industry (that I work in) does across the state. According to NPR, people in Paso Robles have to use paper plates to eat because they don't have the water to wash dishes OR take baths. Vineyard installation in that area has exploded, unchecked, without regard to the natural resources or the people who rely on them.

California has gone from an agriculture that has benefitted all to a monoculture that benefits a few; over 70,000 acres of wine grapes planted versus 12,000 of EVERYTHING ELSE.

This project sets a dangerous precedence and, in my opinion, would destroy the Laguna de Santa Rosa and open the door to more insensitive projects in an environment that cannot support them.

This project is wrong for Sebastopol. It is wrong for Sonoma County.

Best,

Bill Shortridge
Citizen

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

...brand new winery that will extract at least 16 million gallons of water per year....

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WOW! Shepherd, that's a real eye opener!

The following article on the huge amount of water needed to make wine is important.

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...1_11-31-45.png

Dunne on Wine: Water used to make wine becomes issue during drought

BY MIKE DUNNE - SPECIAL TO THE BEE
10/10/2014 12:41 PM

If you have one of those “Save Water Drink Wine” bumper stickers on your car, you might want to rip it off.

And not only because the wit is so lame.

The advice is erroneous. In this time of drought, a bumper sticker urging fellow motorists to “Save Water Drink Water” makes more sense.

After all, 29 gallons of water were used to produce that glass of cabernet sauvignon you look forward to drinking with tonight’s dinner.

That, at least, is the calculation of the Water Footprint Network, a nonprofit foundation in the Netherlands that advocates for more sustainable, efficient and fair ways to use water.

Mesfin Mekonnen, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Twente in the Netherlands, and a Water Footprint associate involved in compiling data, said via email that the 29-gallon figure was based on such factors as rainfall, irrigation and water used in cellars during winemaking.

In California vineyards and cellars, is 29 gallons of water to produce a single glass of wine a realistic estimate?

Continues here: https://www.sacbee.com/food-drink/wi...#storylink=cpy

Is there such a thing as : WINE FRACKING?

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

..
For this particular project, the proposed 500,000 case production would require 196,000,000 gallons of water per year pulled from the aquifer. ...

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This is not correct. There is an existing vineyard that is not being expanded. Furthermore the vineyard is irrigated with wastewater.

What is a concern, is the amount of additional water that will be required for the winery, including production and events. And the measurement would be the net change over the existing use.

Let's Drink to Wine Country

Oh yay!
Another winery, you say?
Bottles of wine line the grocery store shelves
Out of my price range
With fake French names from Chateau this and Chateau that
A veritable fruit punch called a "meritage"
What is this fixation on all things French?
We're in California
Surely the industry can at least celebrate
The very region it exploits to inebriate
I drink much less wine than back in the day
And am still turned off by all the clever names
Cartoon labels that scream from the aisle
"Look at me! Look at me!"
Like a spoiled child
Tasting rooms that are amusement parks
Funnel it's visitors through the gift shop
Then back on the booze cruise for the next stop
Don't you love it? Who wouldn't?
Water shortage?
It's a free country, and if I want to build a winery I will!
This is wine country, after all
I mean
People don't actually live here
They move here
Buy a parcel and install their dream
A vanity vineyard just upstream
Won't their peers be impressed
Their own name on a label!
Until
The dream loses its luster
And all that scarified goodness
Goes up for sale
Let's drink
To Wine Country...

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

This is not correct. ...

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You're right, Barry, this is not correct. What is not in dispute is that if this project goes through the sky will surely fall this time and our entire way of life will be gone forever. I just heard from a reputable source the drought will go on for another 14 or 15 years!!! Sometimes ya just gotta wonder.....

California has a history of extended droughts as long as 100+ years or more. See the link for: "The West Without Water." Lynn Ingram discusses the idea that all the rain that occurred in California in the 20th century might have been an anomaly.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/.../#.UwJ-6fldWao

https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520268555

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

You're right, Barry, this is not correct. What is not in dispute is that if this project goes through the sky will surely fall this time and our entire way of life will be gone forever. I just heard from a reputable source the drought will go on for another 14 or 15 years!!! Sometimes ya just gotta wonder.....

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Something to think about:

Some years back, the treated waste water was all being used to irrigate crops in the area.
With modern treatment, this stuff is actually pretty clean (at least good enough to irrigate grapes.)
The problem for the city was that they couldn't store it over the winter with the ponds that they had.

Instead of continuing to make this water cleaner and cleaner and providing it for irrigation, the City of Santa Rosa built a 48" pipe and massive pumping system to pump it to the geysers and throw it into the ground to make steam. This cost more money than anyone can imagine. I was against this because I felt the time would come that we would need all that water. Guess where we are now?

What could have been done is a system of smaller ponds on farm properties to store water in the winter and use it in the summer. Anyway, the way things were done, Calpine was able to keep pumping water into the ground (and creating earthquakes) and making power from the steam but now the water is all going elsewhere and not available locally. I'm not passing judgement on the Geysers power, but where are we going to get all the water in the future.

Another point: We have never developed ground water recharge systems. When we engineer something, it is always to get the water to run off as fast as possible. This is incredibly stupid. What we really should be engineering is how to get more water to stay and percolate into the ground (slowly). The soil, plants, rocks, bacteria, and fungi will purify water if given half a chance.

In the days before the white man destroyed the local ecology, the natives encouraged the beavers to build dams throughout the Laguna, each of which created a large lake. These lakes not only hosted incredible populations of fish, birds and mammals but also recharged the water table in the entire region.

Having said this, we can all do the same thing on a smaller scale by capturing rain water and releasing it later. The most simple capture is a swale, an area that holds runoff water and lets it soak into the soil. If your swale can percolate 100 gallons (only 14 cubic ft.) and it rains ten times over the year, you've put 1,000 gallons into the water table. Seasonal ponds capture large amounts of water and allow it to percolate into the water table, but need to be carefully constructed. Tanks can perform the same function but are relatively expensive. Small lakes could be even better.

How crops are managed can also make a big difference. If you spray weed killer on your grapes in the winter, you are not only putting it into the streams when it rains but are causing the rainwater to run off instead of being caught in the weeds and infiltrating. Planting cover crops helps capture water and infiltrate into the soil. I personally think it is crazy to poison the soil every year so that nothing will grow.

Sorry for the long rant...

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Posted in reply to the post by dominus:

California has a history of extended droughts as long as 100+ years or more. See the link for: "The West Without Water." Lynn Ingram discusses the idea that all the rain that occurred in California in the 20th century might have been an anomaly.

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Following are my rough notes from today's meeting at the proposed winery site. I send it with the request that you make comments on how I might improve it before sending it out to the Sebastopol City Council, editors, and others tomorrow, probably in the morning. What would you suggest that I change, add, or delete? What might a better title be?

Since the public just heard about this large project, which seems to be on a fast track, I want to get something out to decision makers soon. "Time is of the essence." Thanks for any help.

Proposed winery visited on Hiway 12

A group met on Feb. 1 at the site for the proposed large winery on Highway 12 and Llano. Ironically, its address is 5150, which is the police code for someone crazy. Having 57,000 sq. ft of winery production area, a capacity of 500,000 cases of wine and 250,000 gallons of distilled spirits, with up to 48 promotional events a year with as many as 300 people a time, on 68 acres is indeed crazy. The hazards it would present to the unique Laguna and the humans who travel that urban separator between large town Santa Rosa and small town Sebastopol are numerous.

The last-minute gathering was attended by individuals who have participated in various groups, including the Rural Alliance, Sunshine Walkers, Cunningham Marsh Preservation Committee, Blucher Creek Watershed Council, the Sebastopol Grange, Sunshine Walkers, and the Numina Center for the Arts and Spirituality. A planner bought a copy of the application to the Permit and Resource Management Department PRMD).

We spoke mainly about what to say to the Sebastopol City Council at its Feb.3, Tues. meeting, which begins at 6 p.m. at the Youth Annex on Morris Street. The public hearing on the winery is scheduled as # 6 on the agenda, so it may start as early as 6:30. Since each member of the public will have only 3 minutes to speak at that meeting, following are some of the issues we discussed at our gathering. Feel free to bring any of these up at the City Council meeting, as well as in letters to PRMD planner Traci Tesconi ([email protected].) Those comments are due by Feb. 4.

The planner at the meeting made a number of criticisms of the application, including but not limited to the following:

1. It was filed Jan. 14, giving little time for a thorough study of the matter, followed by a response. Such a detailed application would benefit from more time by the agencies to which it was sent, and the public, which only more recently heard about the application. It appears to be on a fast track.

2. The application leaves too many issues unaddressed.

3. Though the application was sent to various agencies, it was not sent to the Water District. Water is certainly one of the crucial issues that must be addressed.

4. The application would benefit from an Environmental Impact Report (EIR).

Among the issues we discussed and plan to bring up at future meetings and articles are the following:

1. Location, Location, Location. The unique Laguna de Santa Rosa, where this industrial alcohol-processing factory would be located, is ignored in the application, and hence becomes “the elephant on the table.” That Laguna is an international treasure for fish, other animals, plants, and humans that expands over 30,000 acres and is part of the Pacific Flyway. For more visual evidence one could visit the wetlands exhibit currently at the Sebastopol Center for the Arts.

2. Water. A Sacramento Bee article reports that 29 gallons of water are needed to make one glass of wine. By taking that excessive amount of water for wine, in a time of drought, what would that mean for the nearby wells that depend on that water, as well as the wildlife? What about the sewage and waste that would be generated in that unincorporated area?

3. Traffic. With the recent addition of The Barlow and the pending downtown CVS Pharmacy in Sebastopol, this would add to the already snarled traffic. It would also reduce the urban separator between large town Santa Rosa and small town Sebastopol.

“This sounds like a Central Valley Project,” one farmer said. It is certainly not local, but represents what could be described as the “Napazation” of Sonoma County.

“Shooting for the moon” is how another person described the application, in order to play “the good developer,” appear to compromise and then end up with what they really wanted.

Among the strategies discussed was the need to request that the County extend their deadline, thus giving the public more time to study and respond.

Shepherd, I love it that you (and others?) took action; I can hardly wait for the report. I really appreciate the way you give details (like the large cow) and bring to our awareness things we couldn't possibly imagine!
Rev. BE :heart:

... and all the local folks who will be coming to visit the new Barlow development, check out all the new shops (or not) and go to Hole in the Wall for lunch...
Rev. BE :heart:

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Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

Backed up traffic on Hwy 12? And on Bodega Ave and Bodega Hwy? And just think, folks, this is WINTER! Wait until all the beachgoers get here again.......

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It seems to me "we" must do something about the parking situation in our downtown area very soon. There is just no way for people to get out of their own way! And emergency vehicles can't get to emergencies without creating other emergencies on the way! We sure don't need any more of these huge projects in the mix on our endangered highways! Perhaps Nancy had it right:
Just Say No!
Rev. BE :heart:

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

The Impact: many of these concert goers (could be) staying in town at 1 of 3 major hotels: Fairfield, Sebastopol Inn and the Barlow Hotel, (and others). Where will they park all these vehicles, Rvs, etc.?
Will there be Shuttle Service dedicated to/from these Events?

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Posted in reply to the post by Victoria Street:

Let's Drink to Wine Country

Oh yay!
Another winery, you say?...

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Awesome Poem here, Victoria, and so very true:

People don't actually live here
They move here
Buy a parcel and install their dream
A vanity vineyard just upstream
Won't their peers be impressed
Their own name on a label!
Until

I know I am a little late to this discussion, but Sarah did not hit the nail on the head, as was mentioned in an earlier post. In fact she missed the nail entirely.

If this area of Sonoma County has any one lasting (historically) identity, it is that of larger scale ag production. 18-wheeler traffic was a very common thing here up until the closure of many of the apple processing plants in the 1970's. My grandfather was a long-haul truck driver for one of these companies hauling Apple Time products across the U.S. Before that it was prune production. that dominated the area with processing plants as well.

But- unlike the central valley, while we had larger centralized processing of agricultural products, the growing of these products was very much de-centralized, allowing small family farms to participate. a 2-5 acre farm was much more common than the 1000+ acre farm, more commonly tied in with "Big Ag." If anyone has had the opportunity to go through the historical membership records at the Grange Hall (which I have) you will see hundreds of names of small farmers on the rolls, many of which maintained orchards which sold their goods to the larger processors.

The irony is, most of you who comment negatively on agricultural expansion (wine grape or otherwise) came to live here in between the large ag cycles (prunes to apple to wine grape to ???) and never experienced what is was to live in Sebastopol during one of these ag boom cycles (Which was the majority of the time this town has existed). You will have a very difficult time changing one of the largest economic drivers of this part of the county until you come up with some type of viable alternative- which has yet to happen. Even when O'Rielly attempted to build here, he was spoken about in the same negative light. Harming another potential reality for this town.

Remember, you came to an area steeped in larger-scale agricultural production. Larger-scale agricultural production did not come to you.

Lets all practice calling it apple country, instead of wine country. maybe if everybody......

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

Awesome Poem here, Victoria, and so very true:

People don't actually live here
They move here
Buy a parcel and install their dream
A vanity vineyard just upstream
Won't their peers be impressed
Their own name on a label!
Until

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Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:

Remember, you came to an area steeped in larger-scale agricultural production. Larger-scale agricultural production did not come to you.

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I did.. that's true. I suppose that's one of the reasons I challenge the impulse to defend what we have now, and to turn it into something even better tuned to what lifestyle I want for myself. It's not just wacco - these days, it's difficult to get spokesmen for alternative perspectives to show up on any forum, because of the well recognized tendency to gather with and listen to those one agrees with (or is similar to).

There's a lot to criticize in the way ag has been run, though, and a lot of other things have changed in the area besides an influx of previously-urban people. Maybe this facility shouldn't exist at all, but personally I hope we end up with a project that's a positive addition to the area. Although it would be cool in some sense to have the laguna restored to its state of a few hundred years ago, in the balance I'm glad that won't happen. This is a good area for people to live in. We just have to make sure that stays true.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:

...Remember, you came to an area steeped in larger-scale agricultural production. Larger-scale agricultural production did not come to you.

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You are so correct Sebtown. What makes this Project different (in my opine) is:

1) AsVictoria stated in her poem (here):
"Look at me! Look at me!"
Like a spoiled child
Tasting rooms that are amusement parks
Funnel its visitors through the gift shop
Then back on the booze cruise for the next stop
Don't you love it? Who wouldn't?
Water shortage?
It's a free country, and if I want to build a winery I will!
This is wine country, after all
I mean...”

2) This is wine/alcohol production that can and will cause serious driving situations with all the Events expected at this location at Hwy. 12 and (IF) a vehicle crosses the highway at the JR Pathway, then has to break for pedestrian traffic, this could cause an accident. Planning for the future is key here. The population has exploded to 8 billion people. (IF) Sebastopol can do some wise planning today; it can better manage all these people as well as the expected traffic while still maintaining its unique charm too.

3) Sebastopol is the Gateway to the Pacific Ocean. This is the magnet, the epicenter of attractions. Let’s plan it safely, sustainably, and wisely, (is all I’m asking).

Thank you for your articulate perspective. From my perspective, the time you speak of has passed. We have a population problem on our planet with over 7 billion people with a life expectancy of close to 80 years. Additionally, we have a climate which is heating up. Also, we have a drought which could prove to be epic in that it's conceivable that it could persist not just for 2 or 3 years but 200 or 300 years. We all are faced with sharing the land and water and that includes wildlife. Many wineries who are growing grapes in Napa are corporate owned and live outside the area. We have the very same situation developing here in Sonoma County. Anytime there is a corporation which is owned by some entity outside the local area, it's easy to think that they will practice the very same good neighbor behavior that an owner might if local. That isn't always the case. Big agriculture hasn't always been such a positive experience.

You are quite right in that a new economic model must be developed which addresses our changing conditions.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:

...
Remember, you came to an area steeped in larger-scale agricultural production. Larger-scale agricultural production did not come to you.

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Posted in reply to the post by farmerdan:

Something to think about:

Some years back, the treated waste water was all being used to irrigate crops in the area....

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very informative Dan.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
It’s time to take a long and hard look at our current habits and become better, more responsible Stewards of this land and Water than we have been in the past.
Today, (most of us) are more environmentally conscious of what it takes to be good stewards, from beginning, to middle, to end use. No longer will we allow big business to dictate to us their wasteful and polluting mandates: (Remember when they said cigarette smoking was healthy and doctor recommended?) Well, we proved them wrong too.
This is where the proverbial rubber meets the road.

Tim

This thread has many thoughtful comments worth our consideration. I am going to add one that is, I know, a bit eccentric. I posted a similar consideration last year regarding the celebration of two small expansions of wineries that were defeated. It was a rare instance of that kind to celebrate.

My consideration is this: if you are against the expansion of wineries, and alcohol production, perhaps it would be a timely moment to look at one's own usage of alcohol. It is the drug of choice in the U.S. And growth in this industry is propelled primarily by consumption. In Sonoma County the wine industry is the major economic driver and that is because so many people are driven to consume it. Advertising displays alcohol, and wine, consumption as something sophisticated and culturally advanced. It is actually difficult to avoid wine; it is offered everywhere.

The active ingredient in wine and alcoholic beverages is ethanol; a highly toxic chemical that causes extensive damage to the human organisim. There is simply no way around this. On an individual level ethanol damage effects the immune system, the brain, and depletes the body in general. On a sociological level, alcohol consumption is a primary factor in violent altercations and accidents. On an economic level, the land use for alcohol takes away from food production (wine and alcoholic beverages are not food, as they provide no nourishment); this, in turn, raises the price of food by limiting the productive land available for food production.

As I mentioned, this is a personal eccentricity of mine; to be opposed to alcohol consumption in Sonoma County definitely marginalizes you. Just to be clear, I am not a 12-stepper, nor have I gone through a period in my life of extreme alcohol consumption. I do not have alcoholics in my immediate family. My concern with the issue of alcohol initially emerged from observing how people behave when drinking and not liking what I saw. And I didn't like the way it effected me as well. I mention these aspects because the tendency is to think that someone who is opposed to alcohol as being an ex-addict, or something similar. This effectively changes the subject from alcohol itself to someone's personal history.

In closing, I'd just like to suggest that if you find the expansion problematic, perhaps you might want to consider your own participation in alcohol usage. As someone who has refrained from alcohol for decades now, I can attest that it is possible to do this and that the benefits of putting alcohol aside are considerable.

You all bring up good points, but they just re-enforce my argument. If you want the change you say you want- YOU have to be it. You can't keep saying "I wish someone would build/create/invent/allow for... " Real life is happening in real time. While you may want things a certain way, there are current entities that are prospering and expanding and planning all the time. This winery proposal just did not happen yesterday. The people behind the project have been building this idea for years.

I am not saying I don't agree that the old ag was the right ag. I am saying it was the ag of this area and is steeped in tradition. To undo it will take an immense amount of effort, full of individuals with a common vision, substantial capital and political influence (this is how the sausage is made)

Sitting on the sidelines and critiquing will not bring the change you desire. If you want to build a better future, pick up a shovel and start digging that foundation.

Wine will have its last days here as well. Replaced by legal weed, olives or whatever. Sebastopol had its chance at having a mini silicon valley and creative culture, but the squandered that opportunity by folding its arms and complaining about those who came to bring some type of change.

What future do you want to see?
Who is able to create that future?
Are you prepared to get behind this effort?

If you don't have real answers to those questions and are able to create change, you will be steamrolled by the current plan that is playing itself out as those entities have already done this work and are now pushing to make their plans a reality.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:

You all bring up good points, but they just re-enforce my argument. If you want the change you say you want- YOU have to be it. ...

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I would like to make it clear (as I stated in the beginning) that I am not against any proposed developments. After all, I have developed many large projects myself in my 38 year career in construction. What (I) am trying to do here is to use the current information that we have in this 21st century while planning ahead for the 22nd century. There is an old carpenter’s saying: “Measure twice, cut once.” That applies here too, (in this stage of planning). This Project does affect Sebastopol, its visitors and Sonoma residents alike when it comes to traffic mitigation, quality of life as well as our personal joys.

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Posted in reply to the post by dominus:

...Many wineries who are growing grapes in Napa are corporate owned and live outside the area. We have the very same situation developing here in Sonoma County. Anytime there is a corporation which is owned by some entity outside the local area, it's easy to think that they will practice the very same good neighbor behavior that an owner might if local. That isn't always the case. Big agriculture hasn't always been such a positive experience. ...

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While foreign owned corporations can indeed be problematic (but necessarily), this venture is owned by a 5th generation Napa winemaker (https://www.coppercane.com/?age-veri...ea2e483#/about). I imagine some of you may consider Napa a foreign country. :wink:

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Posted in reply to the post by applefan:

Lets all practice calling it apple country, instead of wine country. maybe if everybody......

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That is just silly. We live in one of the world's best grape growing areas and Sonoma County produces some of the world's finest wines accordingly. Apples can be grown anywhere, and let's face facts, apples are nowhere near as economically viable a crop as grapes. I see nothing wrong with grape growing, it sure beats the drab suburban sprawl that would be one alternative. We should celebrate living in wine country, I certainly do. And I enjoy local wine very much. So many teetotaleers on wacco, I woulda never thunk....

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

That is just silly. So many teetotaleers on wacco, I woulda never thunk....

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Sorry jbox, I would have enjoyed your comment better without this name calling. Lets all try to stick to the problems at hand rather than devolve down into the pits over this issue before us all.

This is not a black and white, all or nothing issue. I do agree with Shepherd and the folks in the wine industry who he's spoken with, that this is the Napification of Sonoma County. Just look at what happened to Healdsburg, where I grew up. The country folk/bohemian community there was forced into a major transition, as Healdsburg suddenly became the new haven for wine country limo tours, restaurants that many locals themselves can't afford to eat at, and weekend homes for the wealthy. We should be concerned! And we should definitely ask them to get an estimate of the environmental impact!

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

That is just silly. We live in one of the world's best grape growing areas and Sonoma County produces some of the world's finest wines accordingly. Apples can be grown anywhere, and let's face facts, apples are nowhere near as economically viable a crop as grapes. I see nothing wrong with grape growing, it sure beats the drab suburban sprawl that would be one alternative. We should celebrate living in wine country, I certainly do. And I enjoy local wine very much. So many teetotaleers on wacco, I woulda never thunk....

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

Sorry jbox, I would have enjoyed your comment better without this name calling. Lets all try to stick to the problems at hand rather than devolve down into the pits over this issue before us all.

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Sorry about using poetic license. And, for the record, what was the name-calling exactly?

"So many teetotaleers on wacco"

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

Sorry about using poetic license. And, for the record, what was the name-calling exactly?

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

"So many teetotaleers on wacco"

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I will try to use politically correct platitudes from now on - NOT!

Calling someone a "Teetotaler" is derogatory? Since when? That accurately captures anyone who does not partake in alcohol. Do you have an alternative nomenclature you feel more comfortable with? Cause on the flip side, I take great offense to posts by numerous folks here who equate the wine industry with catering only to alcoholics who are out of control with their poison that does great harm. There are many of us who not only use alcohol in moderation, but enjoy the numerous science confirmed health benefits that comes from regular use.

Grape juice is a terrific drink!!!

And I'm Totally Teetotaler!!!:wink:

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

...I see nothing wrong with grape growing, it sure beats the drab suburban sprawl that would be one alternative. We should celebrate living in wine country, I certainly do. And I enjoy local wine very much. So many teetotaleers on wacco, I woulda never thunk....

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

...And we'll see if our esteemed 5th District super can cast the pivitol no vote if it comes to that.

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ROFL - Efren "I took cellphone video but didn't peek" Carillo has been bought and paid for by big business.
He'll spout the same old 'but they make jobs' line, then vote however big business tells him to vote.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:

Calling someone a "Teetotaler" is derogatory? Since when? That accurately captures anyone who does not partake in alcohol. Do you have an alternative nomenclature you feel more comfortable with? Cause on the flip side, I take great offense to posts by numerous folks here who equate the wine industry with catering only to alcoholics who are out of control with their poison that does great harm. There are many of us who not only use alcohol in moderation, but enjoy the numerous science confirmed health benefits that comes from regular use.

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In my humble opinion, this "Subject" is about this site development and its impact on (local) society. This "Project" is not about Alcoholics or non-alcoholics and they do not belong in a serious discussion regarding the traffic situation we currently have at hand. (imho) these nomenclatures are nothing more than a distraction, which if continued will divide us all.

OOPS!

Seems I made a mistake in my calculations (although I think it was a typo). It seems I did Joe Wagner a favor.

The article I based my calculations on was Mike Dunne's Sacramento Bee article listed above by Shepherd.

In that article, Mike claims that it takes 29 gallons of water to make 1 glass of wine. Let's say 4 glasses per bottle - that's 116 gallons per bottle.

12 bottles per case - 1,392 gallons of water.

500,000 cases - 696,000,000 gallons of water.

Even if they irrigate there crops via manure pond on site, it won't put a dent in the 696,000,000 gallons of water being required by that winery to produce the 500,000 cases of wine.

Oh. BTW, this does not include the 250,000 gallons of distilled spirits they are going to produce.

Sorry for the error. The winery would've thanked me.

B!

Regardless of how we feel about certain individuals, I think that it is best to work with all of them to get results. The last vote of the Board of Sups, including Mr. Carillo, was 5-0 against a winery. It is hard to predict what they will do. But demonizing them and bringing in their dark sides is not likely to get their votes, which is what I want.

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Posted in reply to the post by Imagery:

ROFL - Efren "I took cellphone video but didn't peek" Carillo has been bought and paid for by big business.
He'll spout the same old 'but they make jobs' line, then vote however big business tells him to vote.

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Posted in reply to the post by eeeeeeow:

OOPS!

Seems I made a mistake in my calculations.
...
And we are left with 320,000,000 gallons of water being required by that winery to produce the 500,000 cases of wine. Not the 196,000,000 I originally included in my letter. I will be sending this revise to everyone....

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Uh, I bet the winery will source grapes from all over the county and probably the state. Plus I bet most of the acreage is already in production. So the argument that producing all 500,000 cases with grapes grown on site as your post suggests will draw down the Laguna aquifer just doesn't hold water. The facility will use water to run the plant but not the zillions of gallons you say, right?

On the contrary. This is what it would take regardless of where the grapes are grown. Take notice during harvest; no water is used to move grapes around the state and irrigation is only counted on the estate in question. Wineries use HUGE amounts of water from hosing down the crushpad to cleaning bins to watering down Syrah. I have seen estimates above $39 gallons per glass. And, it's not a zillion gallons as you state. It is at least 320,000,000 gallons IF you exclude their irrigation plan, which seems to have used 376,000,000 gallons of water in 2014. THAT'S WITHOUT A WINERY ON PREMISES. So to answer your closing question - Wrong. This project could easily be the end of the Laguna.

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

Uh, I bet the winery will source grapes from all over the county and probably the state. Plus I bet most of the acreage is already in production. So the argument that producing all 500,000 cases with grapes grown on site as your post suggests will draw down the Laguna aquifer just doesn't hold water. The facility will use water to run the plant but not the zillions of gallons you say, right?

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Posted in reply to the post by eeeeeeow:

On the contrary. This is what it would take regardless of where the grapes are grown. Take notice during harvest; no water is used to move grapes around the state and irrigation is only counted on the estate in question. Wineries use HUGE amounts of water from hosing down the crushpad to cleaning bins to watering down Syrah. I have seen estimates above $39 gallons per glass. And, it's not a zillion gallons as you state. It is at least 320,000,000 gallons IF you exclude their irrigation plan, which seems to have used 376,000,000 gallons of water in 2014. THAT'S WITHOUT A WINERY ON PREMISES. So to answer your closing question - Wrong. This project could easily be the end of the Laguna.

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This is not correct. :wink:

From the article you posted earlier:

Quote:

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As to water that vintners use in their wineries, that total is comparably small, though it also can range widely. Vintners and people who study the trade agree that 2 to 6 gallons of water customarily is used in wineries alone for every gallon of wine that is made, though that total can be as low as half a gallon and as high as 20 per gallon of wine. Much of that water is for cleaning hoses, oak barrels, fermentation tanks and the like, with the variation due to such factors as the kind and number of vessels and the frequency with which wine is moved from one tank to another.

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and from the PD article:

Quote:

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water conservation practices employed in Rutherford that have significantly reduced the volume of water used in wine production to a point well below the industry standard, Wagner said.

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So, using round numbers, let's say a case of wine is 2.25 gallons (calling a 750 ml wine bottle .75 quarts (which is pretty close; so (12 bottles per case x .75 quarts per bottle) is 9 quarts per case. Divide that by 4 quarts by gallon and your 2.25 gallons per case.

So then 500,000 case x 2.25 gallons/case x say 6 gallons of water per case (see quote above) is 6,750,000 or 6.75 million gallons. Clearly more than a drop in bucket, but just 2% of your 320,000,00 (320 million) gallons figure above.

So next round is on you, Bill! :toast:

I totally agree, Jim. I also am a teetotaler by choice. I've never seen the attraction/charm of getting/being loud and stupid, which is what usually happens at alcohol-fueled gatherings. In my less charitable moments, I regard them as ritualized alcoholism.

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Posted in reply to the post by Jim Wilson:

...My consideration is this: if you are against the expansion of wineries, and alcohol production, perhaps it would be a timely moment to look at one's own usage of alcohol. ....

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

This is not correct. :wink:
...
So next round is on you, Bill! :toast:

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Make mine any Zinfandel by Wine Guerrilla in Forestville. Thanks, Bill!

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/home/3...plan-for-large

WOW!!!

Well, of course we need a complete, untampered, detailed EIR and time for public digestion and comment before anybody can decide anything based on the TRUTH and not opinions, hopes or fears! I am just wondering how these people expect to get to and from the property with all the bridge construction traffic tieup... are they anticipating a helipad? All those event-goers are not going to just sit in traffic in their limos or tour buses like us poor folk... there must be something up their sleeves that I don't yet know about. There must be some other access to this property either now or planned for the future. Anybody know anything? :hmmm:
Rev. BE :heart:

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Posted in reply to the post by norcalredtail:

This is not a black and white, all or nothing issue. I do agree with Shepherd and the folks in the wine industry who he's spoken with, that this is the Napification of Sonoma County. Just look at what happened to Healdsburg, where I grew up. The country folk/bohemian community there was forced into a major transition, as Healdsburg suddenly became the new haven for wine country limo tours, restaurants that many locals themselves can't afford to eat at, and weekend homes for the wealthy. We should be concerned! And we should definitely ask them to get an estimate of the environmental impact!

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It seems to me that the true issues here, are the impacts the creation of this huge winery may have:

l.massively increased traffic on Hwy 12 close to Sebastopol
2.more accidents likely with tipsy drivers coming from tastings
3. substantially increased water use at a time when water needs to be conserved
4. Healdburgization of Sebastopol: making our town more elite, expensive, catering to the rich even more than is already happening
5. Upping the land values? isn't this a possibility? Do we ordinary folks who are already struggling with outrageous land values and high rentals really want a pricy new winery just outside town?

Don't we have enough wineries already in Sonoma County? And - this location seems nuts to me.
Very very wrong site, not to mention the need for it at all, which I seriously doubt. And I like wine!

Shuttle service for 300 people to attend tastings and concerts, etc.? How will that shuttle get through the traffic? This just doesn't add up, to me. :hmmm:
Rev. BE :heart:

One good thing: By the time this nightmare could come true, we will have a no-wait ER to process all the accident victims, those having allergic reactions to the products, etc.

And why is it that we Waccovians just learned about this really recently? I really want to know how all these projects (CVS, Multi-Use Trails, The Barlow) all get so far developed before we hear about them? Then the pressure is on to object strenuously within a very short time when all details are not known and there are many questions... it doesn't seem a prudent way of communicating with the populace.
Rev. BE :heart:

Thank you Shepard for your thoughtful inclusion of your community, the notes and your time and energy. Irony indeed about the 5150.

If our community came out so uproariously about responsible bike path planning, and if we slowed the cvs thing, I suspect we can slow down the installment of a project that is just too big for said location. Living by the Laguna de Santa Rosa, (and having lived on the other side of Llano Rd by the Laguna de Rohnert Park) I know for sure the creatures most impacted by this proposed project are the birds.

The sucking of the water by the Casino has already been a huge issue for the family farmers around the south of Sebastopol. There was big money and big power w/ that project. Let's hope the big power is with the people who want to preserve the heritage of farming communities and people who are ecologically concerned with preserving our wild. '

When we go forth, facing the opposition, we must think of the Eagle on the Muppet Show. You know him, right? Putting down "Conservationists" even though he's an endangered species? This is who we are dealing with I'm afraid. For comic relief, see this 6 second clip... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1sWCEHWShw

We need an EIR- that is for certain! Water is THE most crucial element to consider.
Thank you!

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Following are my rough notes from today's meeting at the proposed winery site. ...

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From re-reading the winery application, some of their events will be up to 600 people! Someone mentioned the option of entering the winery from Llano Rd. That would require making a new road through this vulnerable area, which would be an environmental disaster. The traffic issue alone should be enough to stop this monstrosity, as the North County people were able to stop the Guy Fieri winery, winning last month by a 5-0 vote of the Board of Supervisors. They had 150 people at the hearing. If we had that many people at the Seb. City Council meeting this evening, we could turn this application down.

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Posted in reply to the post by AllorrahBe:

Shuttle service for 300 people to attend tastings and concerts, etc.? How will that shuttle get through the traffic? This just doesn't add up, to me. :hmmm:
Rev. BE :heart:

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In most Commercial Developments such as this there are concessions made (for) the Cities. Some developers are Required to build (X amount) of Low Income Housing, or provide (X amount) of parks as an addendum to their original projects. Does anyone have any info on this requirement?

I'm a transplant! I also like a good cheap red, occasionally. I'm not against - even for - change as long as it's positive, and therein lies the conundrum, as "change" is such a loaded, subjective term.

A very formative lesson in my life regarding change goes back to my years in the 60's and 70's growing up in Lahaina, Maui. Cane fields, quiet beaches and a handful of resorts were beautiful and "quaint", but didn't offer jobs to young people who would leave the island after high school - and never come back. Tourism was the answer, and the 70's saw a development boom like none other. Hotel's and condo's went up at a furious pace. "Designed" hastily by offsite developers who had never even visited the sites, some waterfront developments had windows not facing the ocean or trade winds, but parking lots!

Within a very short time, Maui-land turned into a great example of what not to do. Direct flights to Kahului, a ferry, and road expansion insured a bumper to bumper experience - even to Hana. With an infrastructure bursting at its seams, timeshare salesmen accosting you on the street in between the cheap trinket shops and trendy burger joints, one can decide for ones self if change, in this case, was worth it. And for whom? In my opinion, these are the questions that truly need serious consideration. Because there's no going back.

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

In most Commercial Developments such as this there are concessions made (for) the Cities. Some developers are Required to build (X amount) of Low Income Housing, or provide (X amount) of parks as an addendum to their original projects. Does anyone have any info on this requirement?

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3 more Points to consider:
1) If we take the (average #s) of concert goers, (approx. 300) per event, and used the (approx. amount) of 2 passengers per vehicle, and multiplied this (loose figure) of one exit and one entrance per vehicle (to this site) that equates to approx. 300 trips over the JR Trail (pathway) and on/off Hwy 12, per day, not including the concert trucks (can have up to 5 big rigs each) for (the bands staging, equipment, etc.,) plus wine production traffic, grapes in, bottles out. In my view, that would be a huge burden on both this Trail and the unmonitored (traffic signal) traffic onto Hwy 12.

2) Remember the Bees? What we need more of is Biodiversity here. Would this owner plant other crops as well to give the Bees this diverse diet they need to survive?

3) Also, would this owner, (as Farmerdan suggest) provide the place for a water holding pond? Would this owner dig a small lake to retain more rainwater to recharge the aquafer there?

The livability of the village of Mendocino was destroyed in the Seventies by the mega-rich coming in, buying up the town to make tons of money. I was there: it was awful. The town was murdered.

The hippies were cleaned off the streets, street musicians were banned, the town was sanitized, commercialized - and became simply a place for pricy boutiques, uber-expensive restaurants and not much else. The library was thrown out, nearly all real stores were closed down: bought up for trinket stores full of plastic sea lions and t-shirts or pricy imported glass junk. Work sites where lovely crafts (pottery, carved wood, candles, painted fabrics) lost their leases and craftspeople were driven away, unable to find, much less afford, the high rents. I lost my massage studio; it was torn down when the owner sold the land for a rich tourist's second home. Lower and middle income folk had to move out due to massive rent increases.

This is already happening in Sebastopol, but it will become much worse if folks don't continue fighting like hell to provent Sebastopol from becoming another phony town as Mendocino has become. It broke my heart when Mendocino was destroyed by greed - I'd hate to see this happen here too. Allowing a giant winery to be created anywhere this fair and lovely town would be a huge step towards destroying it's livability.
It must be stopped!

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Posted in reply to the post by Victoria Street:

I'm a transplant! I also like a good cheap red, occasionally. I'm not against - even for - change as long as it's positive, and therein lies the conundrum, as "change" is such a loaded, subjective term. A very formative lesson in my life regarding change goes back to my years in the 60's and 70's growing up in Lahaina, Maui. ...
...Because there's no going back.

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I agree with some others on this post that the key issue that could severely impact our lives--and Sebastopol businesses--is added traffic on this tiny, already congested, two lane road. And create hazards for we humans on our precious Joe Redota Trail.

I am also concerned about waste water and the impact on the laguna, and agree with Farmer Dan that the best solution would be to build this huge winery in "incorporated areas where there is infrastructure for water and waste."

Our local government's legal tools here seem to me to be environmental, traffic, and public licensing to serve liquor.

The first and most litigation proof lever is public liquor licensing. As a first step, Sebastopol's Council can, in its letter to the Supervisors, strongly urge the County not to authorize ANY public tasting room or wine sales or events at this location.

Insist that this be off the table. Because this road is over-trafficked already, with no capacity to mitigate.

This in itself may make the deal economically less feasible and cause the project to fold.

Next, there is the environmental mitigation for waste water and water usage. Protecting the laguna is essential. The County could demand an extensive study on what this looks like and would cost and make this a requirement.

Hold fast to these strategic requirements, and this winery may never be built. And if it is built under these strict mitigating conditions, its negative impact would be severely cut back.

Check this out. How much water are we using?


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/..._n_839189.html

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Posted in reply to the post by eeeeeeow:

On the contrary. This is what it would take regardless of where the grapes are grown. Take notice during harvest; no water is used to move grapes around the state and irrigation is only counted on the estate in question. Wineries use HUGE amounts of water from hosing down the crushpad to cleaning bins to watering down Syrah. I have seen estimates above $39 gallons per glass. And, it's not a zillion gallons as you state. It is at least 320,000,000 gallons IF you exclude their irrigation plan, which seems to have used 376,000,000 gallons of water in 2014. THAT'S WITHOUT A WINERY ON PREMISES. So to answer your closing question - Wrong. This project could easily be the end of the Laguna.

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I'm going to be at the City Council with my 8 year old daughter to take a stand for keeping our community in Sebastopol sustainable. That's what we are about in this community, and the winery expansion is not a good fit for this vision. Read Shepherds post below for the meeting info.

Blessings,

Christine Dufond

There seem to be varying numbers on water use, but they are all huge. Bill used 29 gals, I used 31. Based on the number, 31 per glass, used in piece below, this is what it is for the winery

31 gal per glass X 4 glasses per bottle x 12 bottles per case x 500,000 cases = 744 million gal.

This number might include bottle, label making and cardboard box making, all offsite, but not does include the distillery part of the proposal.

I suspect the developer will say not so, or tell us that they use environmentally sustainable practices.
What we really need is someone like Jane Nielson to give a real picture of what this might mean to groundwater supplies and neighboring wells and how far away effects might be.

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Check this out. How much water are we using?


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/..._n_839189.html

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I've started a new thread for this proposed project now that the Sebastopol City Council has heard and responded, starting with an excellent article about the meeting by Shepherd Bliss. Please direct all future comments about this project on the new thread. I am closing this thread.

If you'd like to receive instant email updates of new posts to that thread, click the gratitude button on Shepherd's article.

See the new thread here.