Drinks tampered with at our bars

Hi, I'm a long time follower, first time poster. I have been hesitant about posting, but I can't think of another safe way to let people know what has been happening over the past month.

My husband and I were both the target of being drugged at a local pub on Main Street in May. I returned to this pub and was told by the daytime bartender than another couple had been targeted the week before at another Sebastopol bar. After that I learned a third couple was targeted (at the same pub I was at) and were actually followed home. I went to the police station to make a report and was told they were not going to do anything, not even make a stop into the bars, because "There's no proof" and "No one was hurt."

I really didn't expect an aggressive action on their part, but they are completely uninterested and frankly, I don't think they believed me. Anyways, I thought the next best thing would be to inform people locally. We can at least protect ourselves if the police can't or won't. I don't think there is a reason to name the bars outright, as it is happening multiple places, and I don't want to unnecessarily scar those businesses for an individual's indiscretion.

Sadly,
Trixie

Trixie,

I'm sorry to hear about this ...

The same thing happened to me but it was unattended coffee that was tampered with ... I ended up unconscious by the side of the road trying to make it to the emergency room ...

I thought that it was more whistle-blower retaliation since I had called the cops on criminals in my neighborhood ... I also discovered a meth house when looking for my stolen cat and reported that ... I've been attacked ever since and now I seem to be on some kind of community watch list as a criminal ... the ultimate in retaliation ...

I finally found a kind cop who is willing to look into this for me so I suggest that you try again with the police ...

an afterthought ... can the bartender who witnessed similar druggings go to the police with you?

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Posted in reply to the post by trixie01:

Hi, I'm a long time follower, first time poster. I have been hesitant about posting, but I can't think of another safe way to let people know what has been happening over the past month.

My husband and I were both the target of being drugged at a local pub on Main Street in May. I returned to this pub and was told by the daytime bartender than another couple had been targeted the week before at another Sebastopol bar. After that I learned a third couple was targeted (at the same pub I was at) and were actually followed home. I went to the police station to make a report and was told they were not going to do anything, not even make a stop into the bars, because "There's no proof" and "No one was hurt."

I really didn't expect an aggressive action on their part, but they are completely uninterested and frankly, I don't think they believed me. Anyways, I thought the next best thing would be to inform people locally. We can at least protect ourselves if the police can't or won't. I don't think there is a reason to name the bars outright, as it is happening multiple places, and I don't want to unnecessarily scar those businesses for an individual's indiscretion.

Sadly,
Trixie

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So sorry this happened to you Trixie. The police should respond with more concern. They say, "you were not hurt", but you were actually hurt, and they may be able to keep others from being hurt. Were your drinks on the bar or table left unattended? Do you think it was another customer or someone who works at the bar? I read an article about bar employees who were busted for drugging drinks (can't remember where or when it was-not in Sebastopol). Thanks for the warning.

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Posted in reply to the post by trixie01:

...My husband and I were both the target of being drugged at a local pub on Main Street in May....

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Thank you for your replies.

I don't think it was the bartender. That same bartender has been there every Saturday night since I started going there. We were drinking beer right out of the bottle which made me feel pretty secure about not watching it like a hawk. I feel I was hurt, certainly, and like most victims I feel a sense of guilt, even though I know that is completely irrational.

There is some good news however. I found someone else in the department who is sympathetic to this issue. That in itself makes me feel safer and my concerns validated.

Thank you again.

Trixie,
It would be helpful to know what you mean by being "drugged" at a bar. What happened? What kind of drug? What effect did it have? Did someone accost you? Your "warning" seems rather vague.

My "warning" seeming "rather vague" is an odd statement. I'm not a chemist, only a doctor, and can not for sure tell you what was put in my drink. I had dizziness followed by loss of recollection. Unless you are looking for a specific high I would only "warn" that I wouldn't want another person to inadvertently experience what I did. Would it matter if I took as guess as to what the drug was? Would you decide not to watch your drink? I'm not sure how much more helpful I can be other than to state, as many have before, to watch your drink.

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Posted in reply to the post by sambacat:

Trixie,
It would be helpful to know what you mean by being "drugged" at a bar. What happened? What kind of drug? What effect did it have? Did someone accost you? Your "warning" seems rather vague.

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Posted in reply to the post by trixie01:

I had dizziness followed by loss of recollection.

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That suggests at least one possibility for the identity of the mystery drug: alcohol.

That's really funny. You probably make rape jokes, too.

Victim shaming has no place in our community.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

That suggests at least one possibility for the identity of the mystery drug: alcohol.

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You're just being discredited dear ... you'll get used to it ... it seems to be a trend around here ...

No, there's no crime around here ... it's just in your imagination ... ( sarcasm )

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Posted in reply to the post by trixie01:

That's really funny. You probably make rape jokes, too.

Victim shaming has no place in our community.

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I, like others, had the same response to this post; blaming the victim. It is easy to make a glib comment like this when you haven't experienced the hurt someone else has. Maybe you want to make a joke, but it is not funny. I have known has least 2 women who have had their drinks spiked and have been taken somewhere and raped. I think it is important to others who want to share and inform us of a danger to ask questions and offer support instead of tearing them down (which is easy to do from your computer at home). It shows a lack of compassion.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

That suggests at least one possibility for the identity of the mystery drug: alcohol.

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Thank you for your kindness. I see cyber bullying is alive and well, even in west county where we are all "enlightened." It's ok though. I'm not too hurt about someone's "screen muscles."

Safe weekend everyone!

Trixie

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Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

You're just being discredited dear ... you'll get used to it ... it seems to be a trend around here ...

No, there's no crime around here ... it's just in your imagination ... ( sarcasm )

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Trixie, urlove, and arthunter--

Now that you've gotten your jollies publicly slapping me around with uncharitable assumptions/interpretations about my attitudes, and nasty mischaracterizations of my actions ("victim shaming", "cyber bullying", "screen muscles", "tearing...down", "lack of compassion"), would you be interested in trying to understand where I'm really coming from, or would that ruin your self-righteous fun?

Trixie, you said:

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You probably make rape jokes, too.

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I don't recall ever having made a rape joke, though I'd consider doing that if I ever heard one I thought was funny. I've certainly enjoyed dead baby jokes, exploding space shuttle jokes, and jokes about war, disease, disability, death, etc. If you think that indicates some insensitivity, lack of compassion or moral turpitude on my part, you just don't understand the psychology of humor. Many of us joke about horrid things as a way of processing our horror about them. I urge you to be more charitable in your assumptions about us.

So yes, my remark was an effort to elicit a chuckle, but it was only partly tongue in cheek. It was also a serious suggestion to consider the possibility that you folks could have had a bit more alcohol than you thought and mistakenly attributed your experience to having been drugged by someone else. Such mistaken interpretations happen commonly among sane and honest people; any good article on so-called "mass hysteria" (Wikipedia has one) will give examples of some of the more extreme manifestations, though your experience sounds less dramatic.

Am I saying that you weren't drugged by anyone other than yourself? No, I'm not. It's very plausible that you may have been. But you've given so little info about what did in fact happen that I have no idea whether your assertion is true. When you ingest a drug that commonly produces "dizziness" and "loss of recollection", then cite those symptoms as evidence of foul play--well, what kind of response do you expect? I am open to either interpretation: that you're right about having been drugged or that you're mistaken. Would you prefer that I be less open-minded, that I believe you on the assumption that you couldn't possibly be mistaken? If so, you ask too much. My expression of skepticism is not an insult or an attack. If you think it is, I urge you to do some introspection about your defensiveness.

I understand that lots of folks, mostly women, have been drugged and sexually assaulted. Of course I and all reasonable people are horrified by that. But it doesn't follow from that that every time someone thinks they've been drugged they're right. The fact that the presumed victims in this case include both a man and a woman seems to decrease the likelihood that it's that sort of thing. Of course, it's possible that if I knew more of the facts of the case I'd agree with you, but with the sparse info you've shared, I've no basis for certainty one way or the other.

Bottom line: Whether or not you were really drugged, I understand that thinking you were could be very disturbing and frightening. If my comment increased your suffering, I apologize. That certainly wasn't my intention. My hope was to give a little chuckle to those who could appreciate my comment as well as to encourage open-mindedness about the possible explanations of your experience. And if someone really is drugging folks around here, I hope he/she/they are brought to justice as quickly as possible!

Dixon,

Thank you for your reply.

As for more detail about the situation, I had less than two beers. This amount of alcohol would not render me unconscious. Another couple was targeted at another bar the week before we were. I'm not a criminal mastermind so I can't tell you why someone would target a couple instead of a single female. I also became unconscious quickly so I can't give you a play by play.

Secondly, in my career I have seen the unimaginable, to children, and others. At no time have I made a joke or a slur out of a psychological need to deal with those tragedies, or what it means that some of those tragedies were actually caused by another person. This is not based out of self righteousness; this was part and parcel of my extensive training. Yes, many people in stressful jobs use this as a coping method. This method of coping is inefficient at best, and harmful at worst. I want to be clear here, I'm not using that statement to judge you; it is based on my personal research of "near miss accidents" and the psychological aftermath, specifically dealing with life and death in the operating room.

Whether or not you believe me, well, that is up to you. We all make assumptions about the stories we hear every day. And what we vocalize about that story can and does have an effect. Staying open minded in this area as well would serve us greatly.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your comment.

Warmly,
Trixie

Edit: Ineffective, rather than inefficient. This type of response is not only slower to bring closure, it is actually less effective.

I think what most of us would prefer from other members here is that when someone says they are a victim of a crime, to assume that is true when considering whether or not to make a joke about it.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Trixie, urlove, and arthunter--

Now that you've gotten your jollies publicly slapping me around with uncharitable assumptions/interpretations about my attitudes, and nasty mischaracterizations of my actions ("victim shaming", "cyber bullying", "screen muscles", "tearing...down", "lack of compassion"), would you be interested in trying to understand where I'm really coming from, or would that ruin your self-righteous fun?...

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Posted in reply to the post by Amazonian:

I think what most of us would prefer from other members here is that when someone says they are a victim of a crime, to assume that is true when considering whether or not to make a joke about it.

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Your point is well-expressed and well taken.
Please note that my message that aroused such consternation in a few was a serious message which, I think, needed to be said. I chose to express it in a slightly sardonic way which I hoped would elicit a chuckle from those so inclined without, I think, being harsh. I suspect that my skepticism about Trixie's report would have aroused similar objections even it it had been expressed humorlessly. Your mileage may vary.

What victim of drugging knows the drug that was used? ... and what mature adult has trouble distinguishing an alcohol buzz from something more serious? ... can we please take these reports of crime seriously?

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Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

...can we please take these reports of crime seriously?

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If you think that taking reports of crime seriously means automatically assuming they're true, I must disagree with you. Lots of people have languished in prison or, worse, been executed because others have been insufficiently skeptical/open-minded about the reports. To me, taking a report seriously means considering various possibilities open-mindedly and rationally.

Two beers, especially two of the relatively high-alcohol "micro-brew" style beers popular these days would pretty well flatten me, cause dizziness and cause me to pass out within an hour or so. I'm very susceptible to the effects of hops. Wine doesn't do this to me.

Two pale "American-style" beers would just make me sick.

If I was a cop looking at this as objectively as possible, I would guess the drug in question was alcohol. There are two drugs commonly used to "spike" drinks in such a way that the person doing the drugging would attempt some kind of aggression on the drugged person. One is GHB which was sadly mislabeled "The Date Rape Drug" some decades back. GHB is quite rare these days on the street. I'd be interested to hear someone in law enforcement comment on recent reports of it. I haven't heard any. Something about GHB is that it is reported to have a strong salty taste so it can be slipped into a marguerita rather easily without detection. Beer? No way. It would ruin the taste of the drink and you'd know it immediately.

The other drug is more dangerous and sinister partly because it's a legal prescription drug: Rohypnol, commonly known as "roofies." This is a drug in the same family as valium and causes drowsiness and minor amnesia. Although this also was identified as a "date rape drug" the literature is quite thin on this. Actually, the real date rape drug is alcohol. My guess is this drug would have a bitter taste that could be easily detected in beer.

As to the original poster's experience nobody can say at this point. It's good that the police have been alerted because immediate action needs to be taken (urine samples) so tests can be performed to determine what drug was used.

At this point let's all be grateful no lasting harm was done.

Trixie, thanks for sharing your thoughts. A couple of comments:

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Posted in reply to the post by trixie01:

...I had less than two beers. This amount of alcohol would not render me unconscious....I also became unconscious quickly so I can't give you a play by play.

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This information is new to the discussion, and would seem to support your suspicion of having been drugged. But I'm puzzled as to why you previously mentioned "dizziness followed by loss of recollection" but didn't mention unconsciousness, a more serious effect.

Re: your comments about using humor to deal with difficult feelings--I too have considerable training and experience in dealing with traumatic events (MA in Counseling with years of experience working with extremely mentally ill folks). Note that I comport myself differently in a Wacco thread than I would in delicate professional situations. Anyway, my main point about that was that people's negative attributions to me for a mildly humorous remark ("victim shaming", "cyber bullying", "screen muscles", "tearing...down", "lack of compassion"), and such negative assumptions about purveyors of dark humor in general, are unfair, inaccurate, and nonconstructive.

Blessings;
Dixon

Dixon,

I assumed unconsciousness would be a given when I described this situation. I don't know of other drugging stories that didn't end in unconsciousness. Isn't that the point of drugging someone?

Anyways, I am reluctant to give exact details on a public forum where the perpetrator also has access. Why should he/she benefit from the details of my case so that that information can be used on someone else?

Trixie

Dixon,

Since you have so much experience in the world of psychology can you talk about the criminal mind? ... what motivates people to discard any moral compass? .... is there a way to help these people?

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Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

Since you have so much experience in the world of psychology can you talk about the criminal mind? ...

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I'm flattered that you'd solicit my opinion, but criminology isn't an area of expertise for me, so anything I say about it should be taken with even more grains of salt than usual.

I'm assuming that by "criminal" here you mean people who actually violate others (robbers, rapists, murderers, vandals, etc.) rather than people who are criminalized because they run afoul of oppressive "lifestyle laws" such as those against drug use, homosexuality, nudity, etc.

This is a question about human nature. To understand human nature, one must understand that any organism that survives does so because it is operating from a basic position of self-interest. It has out-competed other individuals and other species for food, living space, etc. It is these beings who live long enough to reproduce successfully. Someone who is both willing and able to beat up the next guy and steal his food, or to get his seed into as many wombs as possible through rape, is more likely to pass his traits on to the next generation than someone who is less aggressive. So traits such as aggressiveness, dishonest manipulativeness and self-centeredness are "selected for" in the process of evolution.

But, being a very social species, humans depend on the larger community for survival. So social virtues which allow us to support one another also have survival value and are selected for by evolution--traits such as empathy, love, selflessness, dependability, trustworthiness.

So you see we have a dual nature for good evolutionary reasons. The mixture of what we'd call "good" and "evil" is different from person to person and can manifest differently in the same person from time to time and situation to situation.

People who are predominantly self-centered, unrestrained by empathy or concern for others, are called psychopaths or sociopaths. I won't go into the difference between the two terms here; suffice it to say that to them, we other people are not full human beings with the same depth they have. Instead we are merely objects: resources to be exploited, obstacles to be avoided or destroyed, or nonentities to be ignored. Sociopathy/psychopathy can manifest in different ways, from the torturer/rapist/murderer for whom another person is merely an object of base gratification, to the corporate CEO and his/her political puppets who rape the planet more metaphorically (but ultimately no less brutally).

One thing to realize is that, for the most part, things like murder, rape and theft are not unnatural; they are entirely natural behaviors that evolved for reasons that make sense. (This does not mean we shouldn't try to decrease them, but it does mean that they won't disappear entirely any time soon.)

Along with the random variation in the apportionment of "good" versus "evil" traits, there are occasional mutations that twist people's brains with horrible results. For instance, while most mentally ill people are harmless, there is a subset of people with paranoid schizophrenia who are a bit more likely to kill for reasons that are essentially beyond their control. I personally have known--and liked--at least 3 people who have murdered while in the throes of psychosis. Also, Jeffrey Dahmer claimed to have been horrified and disgusted by his urge to rape, kill and eat people, but the urge was too string to resist. I suspect he had a brain glitch, some sort of crossed neuronal wires, so to speak, probably genetic.

There are also social factors that increase the likelihood of victimizing others. Again, I'm no criminologist, but my impression is that they include:

--Having been brutalized/traumatized by others, especially in the early formative years--If someone's early childhood experience is that there is no real love, but instead only people trying to fool and exploit others, their ability to engage in loving, caring relationships may be impaired to the point of sociopathy/psychopathy, though this does not happen in all such cases.

--Poverty--If someone's desperate to feed themselves or their kids, they're more likely to plunder the local 7-11, even if they find it morally repugnant to do so.

--Membership in a social group that values crime--The classic example is membership in a street gang that values and honors robbery, rape, etc. Such membership is correlated with those activities. I would also point out that being a member of the police or military, or even a proud citizen of an imperialistic society, may predispose people to criminal behavior, especially if the social context is in denial of the criminality of it. Thus, people who condemn street gangs for plunder, rape and murder commonly wave the flag and cheer for "our troops", who do that stuff on an officially approved basis. War crimes are crimes, even if everyone in the community seems to be in denial. In general, I think nationalism and religious divisiveness, just to give a couple of examples, tend to lead to a "We're righteous; they're evil" narrative that can result in crimes against humanity.

--Social unrest and deterioration of the social fabric--This leads to more and more self-serving, sometimes quite nasty, behavior as people become more anxious about competing for dwindling resources and let go of the luxury of being concerned for their neighbor. Community consciousness is replaced by fear and competition. The fascinating book The Mountain People by anthropologist Colin Turnbull gives a horrifying example of extreme social disintegration in an African tribe, with resulting insensitivity and brutality.

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what motivates people to discard any moral compass? ....

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I've already addressed this some above, but let me point out that evil acts often do not reflect the lack of a moral compass; instead they reflect a poor choice of what moral compass to use. People mutilate their children's genitals, or throw acid in the faces of unveiled women, or engage in "honor killing", or slaughter or conquer other cultures because their chosen "moral compass" prescribes that behavior. So often it's not the lack of a moral compass that's the problem here; it's poor choices about what moral compass to use. (One of these days I'll devote at least one installment of my Wacco column "The Gospel According to Dixon" to moral reasoning.) Obviously, a common source of brutality based on bad moral compasses is religion. Steven Weinberg said it well: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

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is there a way to help these people?

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Well, for extreme psychopaths/sociopaths, I think it's more a matter of helping the rest of us by incarcerating or executing them to protect ourselves from them. Those who are stunted by having been traumatized in their formative years might possibly be helped by some appropriate counseling and understanding, though, speaking as one with an MA in counseling, I would warn that much (most?) of what's offered in the field is snake oil. Mental health treatment for those with psychotic disorders that may make them dangerous is needed, though it's hard to deliver it to people who are resistant to treatment, and hard to predict who will really act out violently.

Crime due to poverty could obviously be alleviated by creating a more equitable society with a better social safety net so people wouldn't have to rob the local 7-11 to feed their kids.

Re: social groups that value crime--we need to counter the social reinforcement that people get for committing crimes by shaming and ridiculing that behavior. No, dude, raping doesn't make you a real man, a cool guy; it shows you to be a pathetic scumbag. And no, joining the military and murdering Arabs so US corporations can make money doesn't make you a hero; it makes you a war criminal. Part of this behavioral approach involves recognizing that behaviors that are rewarded will continue and those that are punished will tend to extinguish. So punishment is important to constrain the behavior of those who are unconstrained by anything so quaint as empathy or conscience.

Re: deterioration of the social fabric--social unrest will not slow down as long as our lives continue to change radically faster than they ever have. Even positive changes create stress as we adapt to them, and then must adapt to our adaptations. What we need is a more community oriented consciousness with mutual support and love replacing out-of-control competition and material acquisitiveness as a source of comfort.

So, that's the short answer, arthunter. Arthunter...arthunter...? She fell asleep!

Dixon, thank you for taking the time to go into the depth of this question, and by pointing out actions that we, who think we have a rightious moral compass, may also be unwittingly contributing to criminal activity. For example, people who join the police force or military may enlist for a variety of reasons that they might consider "honorable", but we all know that is far from the truth.

Being part of a powerful group gives a sense of power to those who feel powerless. If this group condons using violence, it becomes an avenue to express accepted rage that may have come from cruel treatment as a child. People who grow up with neglect and violence, don't always turn out to be sadistic criminals. But many are injured both mentally and emotionally to a point of no return, and labeled as a person with psychosis of one variety or another.

In previous thread, there was a discussion about people being subject to acting on impulse rather than thinking first. It would seem that in some cases that must be true, as in those who are "not guilty by reason of insanity". So, when push comes to shove, and certain events have led up to unexpressed, built up rage, anything may be the tipping point to do violence to another person and or oneself. It may not have been planned at all, as in the cases of certain military-type strategies that we are all aware of.

Certain (legal) medications can alter mental perceptions in a way that would create a belief in a "conspiracy". I know someone who suffers from this delusion, and has recently tried to kill himself. I've watched the effects of the prescribed medications, and even warned his doctor, but there was no response or no change in the prescriptions. Of course, it's not just the medications, but his inability to "connect the dots" or to see how his behavior creates certain consequences. So, his position is one of "blame".

He wasn't neglected as a child, had a stay at home mom, a dad who was a high school principal, and also a POW who never spoke about his experiences. His mom and dad were married over 50 years, until his father died of cancer. To look at a picture I took of them several years ago, with his brother, sister, and mom, you would see what appears to be a happy family. But as a photographer, I look beyond the surface, and see that each person stands apart from the other. There is no touching, until I ask them to get closer. This reveals a family "out of touch" with each other. This is the sad, but deeper truth. What happened in this family is unknown. Each sibling is estranged, with a thead of hate between them. I have no doubt that if they were in close proximity, violence would errupt.

When one brother took the other one in recently, after a foreclosure, I watched the tensions mounting, and knew there would be a breaking point. Fortunately, the event of a "murder-suicide" didn't happen, more than likely because of an inner struggle between rage and morality. The decision to kill oneself was chosen, but thwarted by an alert to the police, and that brother is now in a psych ward for observation. I don't know what the outcome will be. I'm unable to rescue this person as I have in the past, and he now considers me a "conspirator". His gun was taken, and he's penniless, so fortunately he can't buy another one. He's in a lock down ward until whatever the next step is in the process.

I'm taking one day at a time, trying to continue on with my life as planned, and not allow even a tiny bit of fear to enter my heart. I have some pre-cautions in place, and am willing to defend my life if necessary.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

I'm flattered that you'd solicit my opinion, but criminology isn't an area of expertise for me, so anything I say about it should be taken with even more grains of salt than usual.

I'm assuming that by "criminal" here you mean people who actually violate others (robbers, rapists, murderers, vandals, etc.) rather than people who are criminalized because they run afoul of oppressive "lifestyle laws" such as those against drug use, homosexuality, nudity, etc...

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Thank you Dixon, for taking the time to share your thoughts on the subject. Your reply is excellent ...

I've studied a bit of psychology myself in college, where I became fascinated by the discussions about free will ( Pavlov, etc. ) Recently, I've become interested in world politics and the supposed power grab by the 1%, Somehow, I think that these two subjects are related as I and others are noticing more crime in the country … the militarization of our police and the possible corruption of our citizens, politicians and courts... in other words massive manipulation possibly based on principles of punishment ( incarceration ) and rewards ( money ) ala Pavlov.

I have read that those in power … shadow government or the 1%? … have a formula for weakening our country … something that I would have seriously questioned at an earlier time and dismissed as “conspiracy theory “ but now I'm not so sure … the formula goes something like this …

Buy up media ( done )
Put pressure on the economy … ( done )
Divide and conquer … introduce prejudice … men vs. women, right vs. left, religious wars, etc. … get the people fighting amongst themselves …pit neighbor against neighbor … ( done? )
Destroy the moral fiber by promoting seriously addictive drugs and attitudes which justify crime … ( done ? )
Promote fear ( the War on Terror ) and introduce legislation to protect citizens which erodes personal freedoms ( th e Patriot act ) … ( done )
Increase surveillance and control dissent ( done )
Increase propaganda, confusion and distraction ( done )
Control education options ( done ? )
Establish a citizen watch group to bring down those who question authority ( done? )
Destroy health, mental clarity and motivation by promoting toxins and radiation in food, water and air ( done? )

Now going back to crime … you mentioned several reasons that people would indulge in crime … Aside from true mental illness, most of these reasons seem to involve a loss of personal power.

Now if the true psychopaths in this world, and most people would agree that this applies to the 1%, want a willing army of citizens to do their dirty work, then not only would they promote a loss of personal power by increasing those factors which create this condition ( poverty and education options ), but they would also take advantage of this loss of personal power by offering to replace it … by joining the military for example … a lot of guys join the military because their options are limited and they want to support their country … this gives them a sense of personal power which is real and verifiable … however, if that commitment to their country is abused and they are actually used to suppress countries for the sake of their resources instead of their supposed threat to our country, then they've been lied to …

This is manipulation based on limited options ( for example the availability of education ) and propaganda and successful manipulation destroys free will … once again, another way to manipulate people is to impoverish them … a man with no money and two children to feed will do anything, you've said so yourself …. so money is a huge control factor …. this is obvious ...

Now let's bring this back to crime in Sonoma County or crime and corruption anywhere in our country … fear is the greatest of motivators … if you can convince citizens that they are in danger then they will overlook things like militarized police … if you can convince activists that they will be destroyed if they speak out, then they will remain silent … if you can convince people that there are terrorists lining up to kill them then they will allow breaches of our constitution …

As I've said before, I believe that there is a war on for your mind, and it's not America at fault but rather the people in the shadows who are trying to control her for their own selfish gains … I'm not anti-government, far from it ... there are many good people in government trying to stop all of this, ….I'm anti-corruption and anti-manipulation and I believe that this is a real problem and that crime might play a role in this manipulation ….

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

I'm flattered that you'd solicit my opinion, but criminology isn't an area of expertise for me, so anything I say about it should be taken with even more grains of salt than usual.

I'm assuming that by "criminal" here you mean people who actually violate others (robbers, rapists, murderers, vandals, etc.) rather than people who are criminalized because they run afoul of oppressive "lifestyle laws" such as those against drug use, homosexuality, nudity, etc...

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I'm kind of surprised that you haven't had a slew of tickets for your activism in the past few years. Will you fight this ticket? Is this the first "corrupt" ticket you've gotten? Hopefully other activists will step up and reveal their experience with being ticketed unjustly.

Shandi, I did mention a ticket that I got at the end of this post but I deleted that paragraph realizing that it didn't really relate to what I was saying ... is the ticket corrupt? ... well I had just been counseling another activist about the same thing when I got it so that was a little weird ... also, I drive like an 80 year old nun mostly because of the damage done to my car and this includes stopping at all stop signs ... I can't prove that the ticket is corrupt because there were no witnesses so I'll probably just pay it and if it was indeed to teach me a lesson then it's a small price to pay for freedom of speech .... the activist that I was counseling posted her ticket online and thanked the police for keeping her motivated ...

Of more concern is the fact that I took my car to my mechanic today because of very low brakes and he was surprised to see that the sensor wires that give you warning of low brake fluid appeared to be cut ... his words not mine ...

you know I suspect that whoever's doing this wants me to report these things to scare off other activists ... another reason that I deleted that section ...

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

I'm kind of surprised that you haven't had a slew of tickets for your activism in the past few years. Will you fight this ticket? Is this the first "corrupt" ticket you've gotten? Hopefully other activists will step up and reveal their experience with being ticketed unjustly.

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There IS a simple solution: Don't go out to the bars and drink. I haven't had a single sip of alcohol since October of last year, and I'm not missing it. I've never pulled an Efren due to alcohol, either. I just don't drink in general, not that I've had a problem with it in the past...no DUI's, just prefer not to drink.

Last alcohol was a single beer I bought at the grocery store, got home and opened it up and drank it. Nobody poisoned me, no one tried to tamper with it...and I enjoyed a beer.

A great suggestion, but not really a "simple solution". Going to bars or restaurants or cafes or any place where alcohol is served, and people drink, is part of a "lifestyle" that is actually common. So, people aren't going to change their lifestyle to prevent the low probabiliy that their drink may be tampered with.

Your logic is that if you don't drink alcohol anywhere but home, you don't have to worry. I guess no one would bother spiking a soft drink or Kool Aid.....or would they? Seems like I remember non-alcoholic drinks being spiked with LSD, etc. in the 60's.

If we don't drive, we'll reduce our risks of an auto accident, but I don't think many people are willing to do that either.

Just being alive is risky, and everytime we step outside, we're exposing outselves to the unknown, which includes predators. Even if we don't go out, things can happen to us from our own carelessness or a roommate's, or a visitor's who may not be familiar with our routine.

Awareness and vigilance is our fundamental defense. I think men may be more trained in this than women. If I go to a restaurant with my son, he always faces the door, so he can see who's coming in. He's not paranoid, just vigilant.

This means being aware of your surroundings, people in the immediate environment, and if you're in an enclosed area, where the exits are. These are the basics, but there are many other elements to awareness, that can help protect you. I would encourage everyone to know what they are.

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Posted in reply to the post by Imagery:

There IS a simple solution: Don't go out to the bars and drink. ...

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Did we not learn anything from 9/11? Becoming prisoners to fear helps no one.

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Posted in reply to the post by Imagery:

There IS a simple solution: Don't go out to the bars and drink....

Last alcohol was a single beer I bought at the grocery store, got home and opened it up and drank it. Nobody poisoned me, no one tried to tamper with it...and I enjoyed a beer.

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Your thought is right in line with a great quote, " The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

When people give up this vigilance imagining the laws of the day will protect them, they become prey to the lions and tigers and bears, oh my

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

Just being alive is risky, ...

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Vigilance is right. If the police can't do it, someone needs to bring justice in their own hands and catch this conniving culprit in the act. There's no way that this person or persons should get away with poisoning innocent patrons of a bar, and terrorizing a community.

Any crime of this nature should be a top priority for the local police force.

There needs to be awareness, and people constantly watching out for this horrible activity and deed.

Even if it boils down to video surveillance, this type of awareness is a necessary tool towards capturing an ongoing threat to public wellbeing.

Also, no one talked to you, no one smiled at you while you drank your safe beer at home. It's not about the drink, it's about the conviviality. You can have a coke at a bar or a mineral water.

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Posted in reply to the post by Imagery:

There IS a simple solution: Don't go out to the bars and drink. I haven't had a single sip of alcohol since October of last year, and I'm not missing it. I've never pulled an Efren due to alcohol, either. I just don't drink in general, not that I've had a problem with it in the past...no DUI's, just prefer not to drink.

Last alcohol was a single beer I bought at the grocery store, got home and opened it up and drank it. Nobody poisoned me, no one tried to tamper with it...and I enjoyed a beer.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

A great suggestion, but not really a "simple solution". Going to bars or restaurants or cafes or any place where alcohol is served, and people drink, is part of a "lifestyle" that is actually common. So, people aren't going to change their lifestyle to prevent the low probabiliy that their drink may be tampered with.

Your logic is that if you don't drink alcohol anywhere but home, you don't have to worry. I guess no one would bother spiking a soft drink or Kool Aid.....or would they? Seems like I remember non-alcoholic drinks being spiked with LSD, etc. in the 60's...

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I agree, you can't live a life filled with fear. Things happen. I always sit facing the door as well. I thought it was only those who associate with drug dealers or Mafioso who did that. I think it's a good idea. Vigilance.

I have gotten a plethora of tickets in the past 2 years. Now I always take pictures with my cell phone. The law is if the officer gets anything wrong on the ticket, it is dismissed. Like if they say your VIN number is not visible, take a picture of it and go to traffic court.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

I'm kind of surprised that you haven't had a slew of tickets for your activism in the past few years. Will you fight this ticket? Is this the first "corrupt" ticket you've gotten? Hopefully other activists will step up and reveal their experience with being ticketed unjustly.

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I think that falls into the category of I can diss my mother but don't you dare to. My family has often used humor to deal with horrible things but I wouldn't think it was funny if you presumed to say it.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Trixie, urlove, and arthunter--

Now that you've gotten your jollies publicly slapping me around with uncharitable assumptions/interpretations about my attitudes, and nasty mischaracterizations of my actions ("victim shaming", "cyber bullying", "screen muscles", "tearing...down", "lack of compassion"), would you be interested in trying to understand where I'm really coming from, or would that ruin your self-righteous fun?...

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Posted in reply to the post by eric:

Vigilance is right. If the police can't do it, someone needs to bring justice in their own hands and catch this conniving culprit in the act. There's no way that this person or persons should get away with poisoning innocent patrons of a bar, and terrorizing a community.

Any crime of this nature should be a top priority for the local police force.

There needs to be awareness, and people constantly watching out for this horrible activity and deed.

Even if it boils down to video surveillance, this type of awareness is a necessary tool towards capturing an ongoing threat to public wellbeing.

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Oh yes, let's have mandatory video surveillance at all bars, that way there is no way in hell anyone can slip a mickey in anyone's drink. Yep, uh huh, it's just happening toooooo often.