How should old lumberyard/tractor property on Sebastopol Plaza be developed?

[From The Gravenstein]

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What's that you say?!? Re-design Sebastopol?Downtown design issues are becoming a challenge. The amount of traffic filtering through our community because of a growing Sonoma county is just one problem we are all familiar with. But that brings with it development. There are a few properties downtown that could easily fall prey to fast-food or chain businesses that would turn Sebastopol into a wasteland of corporate mediocrity.

Sound extreme? May I remind you of CVS? So...

The City Council has recently formed a subcommittee of Councilmembers Sarah Glade Gurney and John Eder, and local Planning Consultant Marsha Sue Lustig and Architect Lars Langberg to engage the community in a proactive program designed to provide preferred development information to potential developers of the old downtown lumberyard site (the tractor place across from Screaming Mimi's) located at Petaluma Avenue and Depot St.

In other words - developers would design the property in a way determined by the community - YOU!

Urban Designer Lois Fisher of Fisher Town Design (that seems like a cool business), will present a short program of successful downtowns adjacent to plazas like ours. Then YOU will have an opportunity to weigh in on how YOU think the site should be developed. This information will be used to craft a Community handout about the design of this specific parcel, and presented to the City Council to consider our options.

This is a fun and interactive event that helps Sebastopol grow in a responsible and community-friendly direction.

And it includes YOU.

Bring your ideas. Bring your drawings. Bring your friends.

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I guess the idea of it being a lumberyard is out of the question, huh?

How about an artisanal lumberyard?

What if they put a wine tasting room/restaurant/art gallery in the lumberyard?

:Champagne::artist::Champagne::artist::Champagne::artist:

Not enough of those in the Barlow for you?

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Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole:

I guess the idea of it being a lumberyard is out of the question, huh?

How about an artisanal lumberyard?

What if they put a wine tasting room/restaurant/art gallery in the lumberyard?

:Champagne::artist::Champagne::artist::Champagne::artist:

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Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

Not enough of those in the Barlow for you?

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Turn it into a parking garage to alleviate Sebastopol's terrible parking problem

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Posted in reply to the post by navgal:

Turn it into a parking garage to alleviate Sebastopol's terrible parking problem

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How about a small parking area and the rest grass, park, trees.

Sebastopol doesn't have a terrible parking problem. The problem is that people are unwilling to walk a few blocks. The parking lots at the Vets/Art center always has some space. Please don't advocate for a parking garage at a prime location that can tie the older and new downtown together with thoughful planning.

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Posted in reply to the post by navgal:

Turn it into a parking garage to alleviate Sebastopol's terrible parking problem

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Posted in reply to the post by navgal:

Turn it into a parking garage to alleviate Sebastopol's terrible parking problem

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If I want to see a parking structure, I can just go to the scenic backside of the Santa Rosa Mall. It's the last thing that I want dominating our town. I can't think of anything more unfriendly and sterile than a central spot dedicated to cars instead of people. As we walk past it we can reflect on the fact that space dedicated to peds can be squeezed in without impingeing too much on that allocated for really valuable users like vehicles.

Anyone ask the Tractor guy how he feels? Maybe he would like to keep selling tractors.

I wonder how many tractors they sell. I seldom see any cars in the parking spaces. And the open yard is slowly turning into an unsightly junkyard.

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Posted in reply to the post by spam1:

Anyone ask the Tractor guy how he feels? Maybe he would like to keep selling tractors.

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Sebastopol in the days of my youth and early adulthood was a completely self sufficient town where you could buy anything necessary for your family, but it was also a drive thru town on the way to the River. There was always traffic in the summer and always a problem at the Pellini corner. It has been talked about for at least 50 years. This is just the latest group of folks addressing it.

I am an advocate of the arts and of walking. I love that we have bicycle trails and a vibrant population that is on its feet and able to navigate their way around. But still, as one who drives as well as walks this town, it is obvious to me that Sebastopol DOES have a parking problem for those who are not able to walk the distance between the Vets Bldg lot and downtown. And there are many times when that lot IS full. Not always, granted. but many. It, also, DOES have a parking problem for those who spend a good amount of time trying to navigate their way through lots that are not particularly user friendly. The Whole Foods lot and the Sebastopol Plaza lot both come to mind. If, in fact, we want to keep our dollars inside our city limits, as we all say we do, then we need to come to terms with making it possible for shoppers to park easily near the businesses that we would have them patronize. There must be a balance struck. And I suggest that if a parking structure is NOT implemented sometime, somewhere near the downtown corridor, not only will we end up utilizing at least twice the amount of land to make parking lots, but we will continue to see our dollars drive to Santa Rosa to be spent.

I do not advocate for a Santa Rosa style cement behemoth to be plunked down in the middle of Sebastopol; we are too committed to the arts here to allow that to happen. I DO, however, think that this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Perhaps not at this location, but somewhere close to Main Street, more parking is necessary.

Balance, between all the factions that live here, is just what I seek. Cyclists are not the enemy. Walkers are not the enemy. And drivers of cars are not the enemy. We just need to figure this out.

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Sebastopol doesn't have a terrible parking problem. The problem is that people are unwilling to walk a few blocks. The parking lots at the Vets/Art center always has some space. Please don't advocate for a parking garage at a prime location that can tie the older and new downtown together with thoughful planning.

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a great place for Sebastopol Center for the Arts......or somewhere for teens to gather that is pleasant.

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Posted in reply to the post by caberens:

How about a small parking area and the rest grass, park, trees.

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Posted in reply to the post by cynctysings:

Balance, between all the factions that live here, is just what I seek. Cyclists are not the enemy. Walkers are not the enemy. And drivers of cars are not the enemy. We just need to figure this out.

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that's an accurate way to describe the issue. Balance is a terminal state, though - after things shift around, by definition it's in balance. The question is what's the heaviest contributor. That shouldn't be cars, and it shouldn't be the need to make access to downtown as easy as possible.

The way the Barlow has been developing, it's pretty clear that the daily population of Sebastopol will be much larger than it is today. "Keeping money in town" isn't the major issue. I doubt it is even for the owners of shops downtown. Unless there's a bigger constituency for turning Sebastopol into an outdoor mall than I think there is, problems with inconvenient parking should be somewhat welcomed. That would be a sign that the town is indeed an attractive destination but hasn't gone to extremes just to accomodate the maximum amount of visitors.

Outlying lots with trams, or rental bikes, are possible solutions too. All of these are less convenient than drive-thru or drive-to-the-door. The price of that kind of convenience is way too high.

I thought the tractor yard went out of business. No?
Tara
treasure

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

I wonder how many tractors they sell. I seldom see any cars in the parking spaces. And the open yard is slowly turning into an unsightly junkyard.

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and won't there be a ton of parking at the newly redesigned CVS across the street? just asking ...

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Sebastopol doesn't have a terrible parking problem. The problem is that people are unwilling to walk a few blocks. The parking lots at the Vets/Art center always has some space. Please don't advocate for a parking garage at a prime location that can tie the older and new downtown together with thoughful planning.

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What about an orchard, an urban food forest of sorts? Maybe with an outdoor community kitchen. I've always loved the outdoor wood burning oven at Community Market in Santa Rosa, though I believe it is underused. In Europe, it was common for people to cook, especially on big holidays, at community kitchens, sometimes at the local bakery, that sort of thing. Sign up to cook your holiday turkey, ham, leg of lamb, etc. there. I'm thinking of something like that, plus a lot of fruit trees, some citrus for the cooler months, plums, peaches, apricots and apples for summer and fall, etc.

Sculptures, too. And benches for lingering in the shade of the trees.

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Posted in reply to the post by spam1:

Anyone ask the Tractor guy how he feels? Maybe he would like to keep selling tractors.

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Ron Basso

No but I heard he came out to the Sebastopol Walks crew and said he wants to stay in business.

You have to admit it is rather an odd use for a property adjoining a downtown plaza.

A couple of things to keep in mind is that the city is interested developing the property further, to it's "highest and best use", that would create both additional tax revenue and, presumably, public benefits.

Also keep in mind that Ron Basso owns it. He was there at the meeting and I'm pretty sure he's not planning on donating it for a park, urban garden, small parking area with grass, or other un-economic or otherwise magical use.


On the other hand, to his credit, he genuinely seemed interested in having it put to good and appropriate use for being on the plaza, including having it be developed and occupied by local businesses rather than chains.

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The meeting was mostly about the physical design considerations for a successful plaza. The key new take-away that I left with was the careful consideration should be given to the slightly awkward connection between the plaza and McKinley Street, which is the natural connector to The Barlow.

In particular the NorthWest corner of whatever is built on the tractor property should have and additional setback (perhaps with outdoor cafe?) to help make the connection more inviting. I'm glad to see that the upcoming Village Building Convergence has targeted that corner for some love! :heart:

Recycled building materials and such like a beautiful recycle circus / Habitat for humanity Re-use store/permaculture hangout.

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Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole:

I guess the idea of it being a lumberyard is out of the question, huh?

How about an artisanal lumberyard? ...

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Lemme get this straight...the storing of old tractors and parts is an eyesore, but artsy-fartsy junk in the same place is OK. whatever.

How 'bout the Tractor guy just puts up a sign saying "tractor art for sale". And isn't selling old tractors -- recycling?

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Posted in reply to the post by AJL:

Recycled building materials and such like a beautiful recycle circus / Habitat for humanity Re-use store/permaculture hangout.

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Yes, balance is a terminal state. I, however, disagree that the main issue here is NOT the need to access downtown easily. For years now, it seems, the 'need' to keep cars at the edge of things has been the prevailing wisdom. And, for those of us who are ambulatory, that is an ok thing. But what about those of us who are less able to get around on foot than others? Are we not supposed to be a town that welcomes diversity and watches out for those with disabilities? Does this inclusion end when the ease of movement includes having to rely on motorized transportation?

I am not talking about drive thru or drive to the door accessibility, only reasonable distance. As for needing to keep money in town not being an issue, I think that polling the downtown merchants might bring a different answer. It is definitely an issue for those paying rent to keep stores open. And there is a huge difference between turning Sebastopol into an outdoor mall and having a reasonable amount of parking available.

I quite like the idea of edge of town parking with a more regularly scheduled transit system or even bike cabs... rental bikes for those who can't bike on their own.. as an alternative. Those both seem doable and able to serve ALL the residents, as well as the visitors. And, yes, the CVS will come with parking. Perhaps that will handle the parking issue without having to add any more cement to the downtown area. Whatever happens, I am grateful for this forum in which to give my opinion and read those of others. Thanks for that.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

that's an accurate way to describe the issue. Balance is a terminal state, though - after things shift around, by definition it's in balance. The question is what's the heaviest contributor. That shouldn't be cars, and it shouldn't be the need to make access to downtown as easy as possible...

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Posted in reply to the post by cynctysings:

I, however, disagree that the main issue here is NOT the need to access downtown easily. For years now, it seems, the 'need' to keep cars at the edge of things has been the prevailing wisdom. And, for those of us who are ambulatory, that is an ok thing. But what about those of us who are less able to get around on foot than others?

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to be flippant, that's why they call it a disability. It does make things harder. There are more limited ways of dealing with that issue, too - like limited handicapped parking in close. Or good bus service.

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I quite like the idea of edge of town parking with a more regularly scheduled transit system or even bike cabs... .

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creative, different solutions have to be tried unless we want to follow the path so many cities have. It's pretty clear what a big lump of cars does to the feel of a town. There's no way around that reality. the 'little bit pregnant' cliche starts to apply.

And now we can think of what to do with the new 4 "extra" parcels where CVS is building!

See today's PD about the 4 parcels: https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140702/articles/140709906

And Here: https://www.facebook.com/SebastopolTomorrow

And here: https://sebastopoltomorrow.org/

When our Sebastopol Walking group walked by the luberyard/tractor property on Saturday the owner came out and was VERY ANGRY!!! He heard mention of the 'idea' to plan a use for this property. He started yelling "I am not leaving here." I have a good business. We told him we were just discussing the options for the future and he was welcome to come to the meeting. He would NOT hear it!!! He got MORE ANGRY and kept yelling he is not leaving that location....and other resentments .... we moved on...
Jewelbridge

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

I wonder how many tractors they sell. I seldom see any cars in the parking spaces. And the open yard is slowly turning into an unsightly junkyard.

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

I wonder how many tractors they sell. I seldom see any cars in the parking spaces. And the open yard is slowly turning into an unsightly junkyard.

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funny, I kinda like junkyards - gives us the rural, hillbilly look. I find too much flavor of a suburban paradise makes an area uninviting; signs of people's activities are interesting. I actually like the approach to Santa Rosa from the south on Santa Rosa Blvd -- so I guess I've just blown my credibility as a civic design critic, eh?

Well that's very nieghborly. I guess he knows that a bunch of scruffy walkers would not be buying a tractor anytime soon. Maybe a complaint to city planning about the junkyard would get his attention.
I did buy from them when they were in Graton, but I got bad advice and the wrong item and have'nt been back.

With all that said, the tractor owner has a perfect right to do business there. I don't think the city would do anything to get him out, but why is he so obviously threatened that he has to yell a a group of people? Not good for biz and I do not appreciate his behavior towards innocent people.

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Posted in reply to the post by jewelbridge:

When our Sebastopol Walking group walked by the luberyard/tractor property on Saturday the owner came out and was VERY ANGRY!!! He heard mention of the 'idea' to plan a use for this property. He started yelling "I am not leaving here." I have a good business. We told him we were just discussing the options for the future and he was welcome to come to the meeting. He would NOT hear it!!! He got MORE ANGRY and kept yelling he is not leaving that location....and other resentments .... we moved on...
Jewelbridge

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The problem with all of these decisions is that it boils down to taste. The taste of the urban planners, architects, developers, business owners and maybe the general public.

On the one hand, there is the charm of existing/older buildings with their patinas of age and range of shapes and materials that give a town its personality and style. These buildings are almost always replaced by the sad, cold geometry of modernist and post-modernist design dogmas. They are "planned developments" of generic ideas by architects and planners intent upon bending a community to fit their vision, rather than the other way around.

:firstplaceribbon:
Vocabulary Word of the Day

goes to Ted Pole for
simulacrum

A simulacrum is a representation
or imitation of a person or thing.[1]
The word was first recorded in the
English language in the late 16th century,
used to describe a representation,
such as a statue or a painting,
especially of a god.
By the late 19th century, it had gathered
a secondary association of inferiority:
an image without the substance or
qualities of the original....
[Barry]

Coupled with the developers lust for optimized profit-per-square-foot returns, the aesthetics of retail spaces are a challenge to any community grasping to hold on to the evaporating simulacrum of its history.

The results are often like The Barlow, which seems to me like it can't decide on whether it wants to be an office park or a concentration camp. The hard cold angles, the sameness of the buildings, and the uniformity of the signage all conspire to make for an utterly charmless neighborhood geared solely toward the retail experience. The area it replaced, chockablock with old metal warehouses of different colors and sizes might have, in a perfect world, been refurbished and upgraded, keeping the facades intact, split into individual spaces for retail, and kept the charm of being a "warehouse district" in a tiny farming town.

I think The Barlow will be nice in about fifty years, once age and rust have tempered the cold, shiny material and the vegetation has softened the geometry a lot. In other words, once it looks a lot more like the buildings it replaced and tries to conjure.

And the new design for the CVS Shopping Center evokes a similar disappointment. It appears to be the same brutal geometry of the off ramp retail you find in every town on 101 from Petaluma to Windsor. In "our" unique design it is painted in bland earth tones and set back from the sidewalk, creating a green space just large enough to be utterly useless. The lack of signage evokes an anonymous, creepy brutality that even the imported palm trees can't soften.

I look at the "before" picture of the old Chevy dealer and see a nicely differentiated set of spaces, where even the signage (bold and unsightly by current standards) helps to simultaneously break up the uniformity of the structures, and join them as a whole.

Again, this is a situation where the actual forms of the "old" buildings were superior to the ones that replace them in terms of human scale, personality, and history.

But then, that's just my taste.

And when "we" decide what to do with the tractor lot, whose taste will prevail?

:dance::kneel: :Yinyangv:

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

funny, I kinda like junkyards - gives us the rural, hillbilly look. I find too much flavor of a suburban paradise makes an area uninviting; signs of people's activities are interesting. I actually like the approach to Santa Rosa from the south on Santa Rosa Blvd -- so I guess I've just blown my credibility as a civic design critic, eh?

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Nah, I think you might be on to something. I propose a lumberyard for that location. As the regional hub for west county the need for a lumberyard is apparent. Why go to Santa Rosa? Perhaps Friedman's will see their way clear to an outpost in Sebastopol. Except for Berry's Sawmill out in Cazadero there is no decent lumberyard in west county. Rise up against the suburban mall model!! Yeeccchhh!! I'm also a wee bit weary of the tidy tech-y enlightened look of The Barlow.

I'm a bit confused about the "fun event" announced for planning re. the lumberyard/tractor site. I certainly see the point of long-range planning for the downtown area, and doing so for the Pellini site prior to shit hitting fan might have prevented lots of headaches. But unless I'm mistaken, there's a business operating there. Are we intending to establish a precedent for targeting properties that are in use for the sake of pushing developers to find "better" uses? How about a dog-grooming salon where Main Stage West is doing that useless theatrical stuff, or Payday Loans in place of Mimi's?

Cheers, in a puzzled sort of way—
Conrad

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Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole:

On the one hand, there is the charm of existing/older buildings with their patinas of age and range of shapes and materials that give a town its personality and style. These buildings are almost always replaced by the sad, cold geometry of modernist and post-modernist design dogmas.

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as I drove south today through Petaluma, I noticed the contrast of what straddles 101 near Washington with what the old fairgrounds/racetrack area used to be like. Now it's nice pastel slabs of stucco giving a softened corridor effect. At least they've figured out not to make unbroken 30-foot tall panels running for hundreds of feet. But you still see occasionally-broken-up 30 foot tall panels for hundreds of feet. I suspect that it wouldn't take much for that look to overtake our downtown as well. I agree with the feeling that the Barlow needs aging/weathering - certainly when it was empty it did seem pretty harsh too. But I'm very thankful for the lack of stucco.

Dian - see you there!

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Posted in reply to the post by Dian Hardy:

On another note, I'm going with friends to hear Judy Collins tomorrow night at SSU. (Shocking to realize she's my age!)

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That entire property belongs to Ron Basso. The tractor place is only using part of it. I am guessing he is renting space from Basso. Most of the property is a falling down mess. That is not what I want facing my main plaza in town. Basso will be developing it at some point whether the tractor guy likes it or not. This planning meeting was to get a sense of what the community would like to see there. The plan is to create a brochure that the city will give to potential developers with ideas that the community can support. This is hopefully to avoid a long protracted battle like the one with CVS so developers can have an idea in advance what is acceptable to the community.

Lois Fisher gave an excellent presentation about town plazas all over the world to give us ideas. As I've often said before, best to get involved in this stuff rather than whine from the sidelines on Wacco. (No offense intended to anyone.)
Marty

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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:

I'm a bit confused about the "fun event" announced for planning re. the lumberyard/tractor site. I certainly see the point of long-range planning for the downtown area, and doing so for the Pellini site prior to shit hitting fan might have prevented lots of headaches. But unless I'm mistaken, there's a business operating there. Are we intending to establish a precedent for targeting properties that are in use for the sake of pushing developers to find "better" uses? How about a dog-grooming salon where Main Stage West is doing that useless theatrical stuff, or Payday Loans in place of Mimi's?

Cheers, in a puzzled sort of way—
Conrad

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Well podfish, I like junkyards also, considering I do junk art. Junkyards have thier place, but maybe not right in the middle of town.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

funny, I kinda like junkyards - gives us the rural, hillbilly look. I find too much flavor of a suburban paradise makes an area uninviting; signs of people's activities are interesting. I actually like the approach to Santa Rosa from the south on Santa Rosa Blvd -- so I guess I've just blown my credibility as a civic design critic, eh?

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Point taken.

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Well podfish, I like junkyards also, considering I do junk art. Junkyards have thier place, but maybe not right in the middle of town.

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Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:

Most of the property is a falling down mess. That is not what I want facing my main plaza in town.

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I hear this sentiment from a lot of people. But I think that your, or my, or anybody's aesthetic preferences are, or should be, irrelevant to what someone does with his/her private property. When the "community" is allowed to make aesthetic rules, old stuff with an individualistic or lived-in look/feel tends to be replaced by soulless, slick, homogenized stuff--what I call "corporate culture". Whether you like that stuff or not, I'd argue that the property owner's right to have it his/her way should trump other people's aesthetic preferences. (I do support the community's right to enforce anti-pollution and anti-noise rules etc., but that's a different issue.)

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Well podfish, I like junkyards also, considering I do junk art. Junkyards have thier place, but maybe not right in the middle of town.

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I'm tempted to suggest that the middle of town might be the best place for a junkyard. Seeing what happened to the stuff we bought years ago, then discarded, might make us more thoughtful about what and how much we buy today.

I wish they'd take down the cyclone fence around the lovely antikeey tractor/lumberyard. it's hard to see the cool funky old stuff when you're driving by.

There seems to be an implied theme that you can fight reality in this thread.

A couple of spaces in the Barlow I like are eating outside, & looking at the green grass at the Community Market - the view & the food is much more appealing than the same chicken & dal & parking lot view at Whole Foods, tho Whole Foods does have a more appealing parade of unusual people & attire. Also sipping tea outside at Taylor Maid, eating outside at Woodfour, or Zazu if you can find something beside beef & pork on their menu.

This has the seeds of a great idea. First, I must say that I fully support the tractor sales guy and feel sad that he may feel people are trying to push him out. He should come first.

But, onward.

What if the cyclone fence were replaced by trees and/or big planter boxes and then some of the space he does not use served as an outdoor museum of sorts celebrating our agricultural heritage. Some public art could be commissioned to honor apples, grapes (yes, grapes, they have long been a part of this place), hops, olives and more, with old equipment and such. I've seen similar displays in Chile (not in public places but on large estates) and they work beautifully.

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Posted in reply to the post by tommy:

I wish they'd take down the cyclone fence around the lovely antikeey tractor/lumberyard...

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Dixon, have you heard of planning? zoning? design review? The community DOES get to have a say on what is constructed in the center of their community. I shudder to think what we'd have without those regulations. For one thing, CVS would have been allowed to build their very first ugly shopping mall design in the very heart of our downtown. AND create worse traffic nightmare than we already have.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

I hear this sentiment from a lot of people. But I think that your, or my, or anybody's aesthetic preferences are, or should be, irrelevant to what someone does with his/her private property. When the "community" is allowed to make aesthetic rules, old stuff with an individualistic or lived-in look/feel tends to be replaced by soulless, slick, homogenized stuff--what I call "corporate culture". Whether you like that stuff or not, I'd argue that the property owner's right to have it his/her way should trump other people's aesthetic preferences. (I do support the community's right to enforce anti-pollution and anti-noise rules etc., but that's a different issue.)

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This could be wonderful Michele, but I am guessing the property owner is hoping to make a bunch of money selling that prime real estate. What I would love to see is two or three story buildings with residences on the top floors and retail and eating places on the first floor - with lots of outdoor dining. Having people live downtown would add a lot of life to the area. Especially at night when things are so dead. Affordable apartments that young people and seniors could afford.

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Posted in reply to the post by oliviathunderkitty:

...What if the cyclone fence were replaced by trees and/or big planter boxes and then some of the space he does not use served as an outdoor museum of sorts celebrating our agricultural heritage. Some public art could be commissioned to honor apples, grapes (yes, grapes, they have long been a part of this place), hops, olives and more, with old equipment and such. I've seen similar displays in Chile (not in public places but on large estates) and they work beautifully.

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Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:

Dixon, have you heard of planning? zoning? design review?

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Of course I have. Do I detect a note of sarcasm in your question?

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The community DOES get to have a say on what is constructed in the center of their community.

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It certainly does. I'm saying that the community has the right to overrule the property owner based on real concerns about things like traffic problems, but not on aesthetic grounds. Aesthetic judgments are subjective, and there is no way a plot of land could look that wouldn't look good to some folks and bad to others. The property owner should not be overruled on aesthetic grounds alone.

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I shudder to think what we'd have without those regulations.

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Your shuddering is your problem. A property owner's right to decide what to do with his/her property should not be abrogated to keep you from shuddering. And if the property looked the way you want it to look, someone else would be shuddering at that.

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For one thing, CVS would have been allowed to build their very first ugly shopping mall design in the very heart of our downtown. AND create worse traffic nightmare than we already have.

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Reasonable concerns about practical issues like traffic are fundamentally different from aesthetic preferences.

Funny how these conversations keep morphing (is that a word?) and I enjoy it as long as things don't turn nasty and mean as in the Palm drive ranting. Anyway, about aethetics. I'm not an archetect or a planner, but I don't think its asking too much for a building for in some way reflect the surroundings. FL Wright did that, but then that was then.

An example is the "file box" house on high street, which in a modernist city would fit right in, but doesn't reflect the craftman cottages all around it. I don't buy the aethetics is subjective arguement.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Of course I have. Do I detect a note of sarcasm in your question?

It certainly does. I'm saying that the community has the right to overrule the property owner based on real concerns about things like traffic problems, but not on aesthetic grounds. Aesthetic judgments are subjective, and there is no way a plot of land could look that wouldn't look good to some folks and bad to others. The property owner should not be overruled on aesthetic grounds alone...

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

An example is the "file box" house on high street, which in a modernist city would fit right in, but doesn't reflect the craftman cottages all around it.

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If you're implying that there's some sort of reasonable social obligation to "fit in" visually, and especially if your position is that that presumed obligation is important enough to trump a property owner's self-determination -- well, you certainly haven't made your case.

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I don't buy the aethetics is subjective arguement.

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Then could you give an example or two of aesthetic judgments that are objective?

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

If you're implying that there's some sort of reasonable social obligation to "fit in" visually, and especially if your position is that that presumed obligation is important enough to trump a property owner's self-determination -- well, you certainly haven't made your case.

Then could you give an example or two of aesthetic judgments that are objective?

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you're making two orthogonal arguments here. The first of your observations is political/social. The other is semantic - and I'd say that aesthetics are arbitrary, but I wouldn't say subjective. People use specific aesthetic principles that can be clearly expressed - whether that's enough to call them 'objective' is the semantic question. The 'subjective' part seems to me to be whether you agree with a specific aesthetic, not inherent in the definition of an aesthetic itself.

Richard, is this morphing enough???

I'm not implying any of that, but a community has an obligation and a right to require some responsible actions of a property owner, otherwise zoning we mean nothing and we could have junk yards, bars, car repair, hotels etc. any where.
Aethetic judgements are niether objective or subjective, but more along the lines of community sensibilities.

Anyway Dixon, swat something back if you wish, but I'm leaving town. The conversations been fun.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

If you're implying that there's some sort of reasonable social obligation to "fit in" visually, and especially if your position is that that presumed obligation is important enough to trump a property owner's self-determination -- well, you certainly haven't made your case.

Then could you give an example or two of aesthetic judgments that are objective?

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Ya got me, I'm way in over my head. I'm going at right angles??? Arrrggg, I'm morphing. Yes, aesthetics are difinitely arbitrary, and communities can have horrible tastes, or not.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

you're making two orthogonal arguments here. The first of your observations is political/social. The other is semantic - and I'd say that aesthetics are arbitrary, but I wouldn't say subjective. People use specific aesthetic principles that can be clearly expressed - whether that's enough to call them 'objective' is the semantic question. The 'subjective' part seems to me to be whether you agree with a specific aesthetic, not inherent in the definition of an aesthetic itself.
Richard, is this morphing enough???

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Ya got me, I'm way in over my head. I'm going at right angles??? Arrrggg, I'm morphing. Yes, aesthetics are difinitely arbitrary, and communities can have horrible tastes, or not.

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it was Dixon's independent arguments I was referring to.... I just wondered if you'd appreciate the morph.

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Yes, aesthetics are difinitely arbitrary, and communities can have horrible tastes, or not.

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One person's "horrible taste" is another's beauty, and, unlike in the world of objective facts, there is no basis for saying one is wrong and the other right.

Can't resist weighing in on this. Aesthetics are both subjective and objective. There are objective factors that all can agree on and then there's the personal overlay of whether or not we like something. I can recognize good quality in things I don't like--food, music, architecture, design, whatever--and, if I am honest, can also admit that something I like isn't necessarily objectively good. It's the difference between the personal and the professional. Critics--good critics, who approach their topic with professionalism--do it all the time. Everyone can learn to make the distinction, at least to some degree.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

One person's "horrible taste" is another's beauty, and, unlike in the world of objective facts, there is no basis for saying one is wrong and the other right.

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I did talk to the tractor shop owner. I called him immediately upon learning about the workshop. I asked, "Are you looking to go out of business, or be relocated?" He gave an adamant, "No!" I also learned that that site was vacant for 13 years before he moved into it. He poured over $80,000 into the building just to be able to open his doors. Now, after three years, he's finally recovering from the recession, and looking to start displaying tractors again. (Remember that recession, all you "junk yard" critics?! Some people are still just recovering from it.)

I also attended the workshop. The presentation by Loise was quite informative and should be applied... to the General Plan Update! Which is where this pet project of Sarah Gurney's belongs! The city should not be in the business of brokering selective private investors' properties, doing the leg work to deliver net profits on a silver platter. In fact, there's a lot that Ron Basso could do right now to improve that property according to Loise. 1. Make the west side of the building the storefront (much like Napa Auto Parts finally did). 2. open up that gated area for customer parking, where tractors could/should also be displayed. The city doesn't need a brochure to attract a new developer to achieve these to simple and impactful adjustments.

Then, leave it alone!! Sebastopol USED to be a practical town. With a lumber yard, cement yard, apple processing facility... but no more. Instead we want cafes, high end hotels, and community gardens, holding festivals and parades celebrating an agriculture industry of the past, the practicalities of which (like the need for tractors and parts, lumber, and processing facilities) we don't want to actually SEE because they bring sights, sounds, and smells that are too displeasing to some. We are sending a message to potential investors, "Buy land, leave it to waste away, and we'll deliver your capital gains on a silver platter by brokering the sale for you," and to business owners and potential tenants we're saying, "Start your business here, and once you're on your feet, we'll kick the stilts out from under you for someone/something better!"

There's nothing wrong with thinking about this property and the business that occupies it, but it belongs as part of the General Plan Update process, not a pet project of one council member. And there are those on this special committee who are also on the GPAC, who were also on the hospital BOD, who should be spending their time and energy putting together a plan and brochure to attract someone to open the hospital they closed!!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by spam1:

Anyone ask the Tractor guy how he feels? Maybe he would like to keep selling tractors.

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Meddling is not innocent. Ever see the "Goonies?" Or how about the new movie "Earth to Echo?" The premise of these films are based on developers coming in and destroying peoples homes to put in something "better." It starts with something so seemingly "innocent," but it always comes down to people's lives/livelihoods vs profits! He has every right to be angry. Where do you live and work? What should we do with your home or place of business- certainly something better and far more pleasing than what your doing with it now. That's how HE feels!

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Posted in reply to the post by Richard Nichols:

Well that's very nieghborly. I guess he knows that a bunch of scruffy walkers would not be buying a tractor anytime soon. Maybe a complaint to city planning about the junkyard would get his attention.
I did buy from them when they were in Graton, but I got bad advice and the wrong item and have'nt been back.

With all that said, the tractor owner has a perfect right to do business there. I don't think the city would do anything to get him out, but why is he so obviously threatened that he has to yell a a group of people? Not good for biz and I do not appreciate his behavior towards innocent people.

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