Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???

While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."

A little etymological understanding is called for. The "pol" in Sebastopol comes from the Greek word "polis", for city (as in Acropolis, Persepolis or even Indianapolis), not from "pool"(as in Liverpool), the anglo saxon word for a contained body of water or puddle. Much as those of us who grew up in the 60s, influenced by the music of such Liverpuddlians as the Beatles, would prefer this association, it is simply wrong.

Although Sebastopol is a community that welcomes diversity in our expression we should take care that in adopting the false analogy from England we risk fouling the historical source waters of our linguistic tradition. Let us preserve our small town character!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson:

While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."

A little etymological understanding is called for. The "pol" in Sebastopol comes from the Greek word "polis", for city (as in Acropolis, Persepolis or even Indianapolis), not from "pool"(as in Liverpool), the anglo saxon word for a contained body of water or puddle. Much as those of us who grew up in the 60s, influenced by the music of such Liverpuddlians as the Beatles, would prefer this association, it is simply wrong.

Although Sebastopol is a community that welcomes diversity in our expression we should take care that in adopting the false analogy from England we risk fouling the historical source waters of our linguistic tradition. Let us preserve our small town character!

---

Puddlian or Polian? Confirming Larry's assertion for an etymological understanding of the name Sebastopol, the following is an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry about the Ukrainian City of Sevastopol, which I understand was an inspiration for the naming our town. Sebastopol means "venerable city".

Scott

Origin

The name of Sevastopolis (Modern Greek: Σεβαστούπολη, Sevastoupoli, old-fashioned Σεβαστούπολις, Sevastoupolis), or currently Sevastopol, was originally chosen in the same etymological trend as other cities in the Crimean peninsula that was intended to reflect its ancient Greek origins. It is a compound of two Greek nouns, σεβαστός (sebastós, Modern sevastós) ('venerable') and πόλις (pólis) ('city'). Σεβαστός is the traditional Greek translation of the honourable Roman title Augustus ('venerable'), originally given to the first emperor of the Roman Empire, G. Julius Caesar Octavianus and later awarded as a title to his successors.
Despite its Greek origin, the name is not old. The city was probably named after the Empress ("Augusta") Catherine II of Russia who founded Sevastopol in 1783. She visited the city in 1787 accompanied by Joseph II, the Emperor of Austria, and other foreign dignitaries.
In the west of the city, there are well-preserved ruins of an ancient Greek port city of Chersonesos, founded in the 5th^{[citation needed]} (or 4th) century BCE. The name means "peninsula" reflecting its location and is not related to the ancient Greek name for the Crimean Peninsula, Chersonēsos Taurikē ("the Taurian Peninsula").

Orthography and pronunciation of the name

• In English, the current prevalent spelling of the name is Sevastopol. The spelling Sebastopol was formerly used. In English it is /ˌsɛvəˈstoʊpəl/ or /səˈvæstəpoʊl/. Only the latter stress pattern is given in the standard English pronunciation dictionaries (Longman, Cambridge, Oxford).
• Ukrainian: Севастополь; Russian: Севастополь, pronounced [seβ̞ɑsˈtɔpɔlʲ] in Ukrainian and [sʲɪvɐsˈtopəlʲ] in Russian.
• Ukrainian: Севастопiль, Sevastopil is a phonetically correct, but less popular Ukrainian form;^[1]
• Crimean Tatar: Aqyar, pronounced aqˈjar
• Turkish: Akyar and Sivastopol
• Modern Greek: Σεβαστούπολη Sevastoupoli

ya can take your high minded lingo and shove it. the town was named for a bar fight. jus cuz the war at the time was imperial folly in the crimea, brit lordy wanna bees charging into certain death for a greek named town, don't erase the fact it was analy township fore that. jasper was irish, a drinker and a gambler, won big and lost bigger. we're all in the pool for sure, so take the pol out your ass fore you git smacked agin!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson:

While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. ...

---

Ya gotta luvit!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

ya can take your high minded lingo and shove it. the town was named for a bar fight. jus cuz the war at the time was imperial folly in the crimea, brit lordy wanna bees charging into certain death for a greek named town, don't erase the fact it was analy township fore that. jasper was irish, a drinker and a gambler, won big and lost bigger. we're all in the pool for sure, so take the pol out your ass fore you git smacked agin!

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson:

While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

ya can take your high minded lingo and shove it. the town was named for a bar fight. jus cuz the war at the time was imperial folly in the crimea, brit lordy wanna bees charging into certain death for a greek named town, don't erase the fact it was analy township fore that. jasper was irish, a drinker and a gambler, won big and lost bigger. we're all in the pool for sure, so take the pol out your ass fore you git smacked agin!

---

Hmmm....apparently Larry has pointed out (and re-opened?) a very old wound that I had no idea existed to this day in our little West County town. As a person of Irish descent myself I'm intrigued. Again from Wikipedia about the Crimean War:

Russia and the Ottoman Empire went to war in October 1853 over Russia's rights to protect Orthodox Christians. Russia gained the upper hand after destroying the Ottoman fleet at the Black Sea port of Sinope; to stop Russia's conquest France and Britain entered in March 1854. Most of the fighting took place for control of the Black Sea, with land battles on the Crimean peninsula in southern Russia. The Russians held their great fortress at Sevastopol for over a year. After it fell, peace became possible, and was arranged at Paris in March 1856. The religion issue had already been resolved. The main results were that the Black Sea was neutralised—Russia would not have any warships there—and the two provinces of Wallachia and Moldavia became largely independent under nominal Ottoman rule.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

the town was named for a bar fight.

---

Does anybody with knowledge of old local history care to elaborate on this?

Scott

On further Google research, here is something published last year in the Press Democrat about the origin of the naming of the town of Sebastopol. Apparently there may be more to this. At one point Yountville was also named Sebastopol. And then there's the whole Jasper O'Ferrell / Analy Township thing.

Scott

https://sebastopol.towns.pressdemocrat.com/2012/08/news/how-sebastopol-got-its-name/#postcomment

How Sebastopol got its name
Monday, August 6th, 2012 | Posted by
By ARTHUR DAWSON / Towns Columnist

Sebastopol’s original name was “Pine Grove.” In 1855, the town consisted of a few buildings that had sprung up where the trail running west from Santa Rosa crossed the one coming north from Petaluma. One of the first structures was a store owned by middle-aged immigrant John Dougherty.

Halfway around the globe, another crossroad sits at the tip of the Crimean Peninsula, where routes across the Black Sea meet. The Russians built a fortified port there in 1783 and called it “Sebastopol.”

During the Crimean War, British and French forces laid siege to Sebastopol. It took months, traveling by telegraph, ship and overland, for news to reach Pine Grove.

One day in Pine Grove, men named Stevens and Hibbs got into a fistfight. Hibbs sought refuge inside Dougherty’s store. Stevens tried to follow, but Dougherty wouldn’t let him. Stevens paced the road outside for hours while Dougherty kept an eye on him. Eventually Stevens left in defeat.

To the crowd that gathered, eager to see a fight, this was disappointing. They nicknamed Dougherty’s store, “Hibb’s Sebastopol.” When it came time to name the post office (Pine Grove was too common), someone suggested “Sebastopol.”

The town has come a long way from such beginnings. A declared “Nuclear Free Zone,” Sebastopol has sister cities in distant countries and hosts a National Peace Site at Ragle Ranch Park. Created by activists from around the world, the site features a pole reading “May Peace Prevail on Earth” in eight languages.

If anything, Sebastopol today seems inspired not by sieges and fistfights, but by peace and the idea of harmony among nations.

Arthur Dawson is a Glen Ellen-based historical ecologist. You can reach him at [email protected].

a bit about o'farrell can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasper_O%27Farrell, and the really interesting stories are for the true collector. he was a one to raise a toast too... the true name of this crossroads village i have somewhere, its pomo you know, on the trail north/south from the great bay to the river and east/west from the tulle grass to the small bay. by the time of the barfight the natives were laying low, first terrorized by mission slave raiders then slaughtered by us invaders.

there is a difference of story about how the fight went down. all agree it started in the saloon and spilled out to the street, but did all come out to watch fisticuffs at the crossroads or one party take refuge in the hardware/drygoods store while the other demanded they come out? we do know that someones comment, "it looks like sevastopol around here!" sparked imagination to rename this place. how was the last syllable pronounced? probably with diversity.

Somehow I thought that at some point the name of the town was Analy, after a place in Scotland that Jasper O'Farrell came from or near. Anyone?

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

how was the last syllable pronounced? probably with diversity.

---

A webpage on how to pronounce "Sebastopol" gave the last syllable as "pall". However, when I specified "Sebastopol, CA", the two pages I checked gave it as "pole", which is how I've always pronounced it. I guess the "pall" pronunciation may be correct for the Russian Sebastopol. What has always sounded sorta dumb to me is when folks pronounce it "pool", which sure can't be derived from the spelling by any pronunciation rules I've ever heard of. I reckon that's just another sign that we're living in the post-literate age.

There is certainly some truth in what my friend Larry says below. However, I still prefer Sebastopuddlians, as did the Press Democrat reporter and as do many of the rest of us who live here. Some, but not all of my reasons follow:

1. Language evolves, especially from British English into American English.

2. I like how Sebastopuddlians sounds. It brings a smile to my face to identify myself that way, which I will continue to do, in spite of the fear that it is "inflammatory" and divides the community. I honor, respect, and in some cases adore those who prefer "Sebastopolians." I prefer both/and rather than a false either/or.

3. I liked puddles, which we recently had, and which Sebastopuddlians evokes. Yea! I am not as much into poles.

4. As a child, I remember enjoying playing with language. It was fun, and I plan to continue with such play. A little bit of fire is not so bad, so I plan to flame on.

5. Rules are made partly to be broken, especially by contrarians. Stirring things up is our birthright. By the way, lets remember, when we call ourselves "Americans," that we are only one version described by that word. Many Latin Americans object to the use of "American" to refer to only people in the United States. They are also Americans. A more precise term--for those who want such precision in language--would be that we are North Americans; there are Central Americans and South Americans. (Sorry to go off on a language tangent.)

Beyond dualistic either/or thinking, there is dialectical both/and thinking. Beyond the polarizing right/wrong, there is right/right thinking, as my indigenous Hawaiian teacher Manu Meyer taught me. So Larry is certainly right, and the Press Democrat reporter and myself may also be right, as well as others of us.

Your "simply wrong," once again, friend Shepherd.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Larry Robinson:

While I agree with everything else Shepherd says here, I have to take issue with his use of the term "Sebastopuddlians" to refer to inhabitants of our beloved town. His use of this term is clearly inflammatory, once again deepening the divide in our community between those who think of themselves as "Sebastopolians" and those who consider themselves "Sebastopuddlians."

A little etymological understanding is called for. The "pol" in Sebastopol comes from the Greek word "polis", for city (as in Acropolis, Persepolis or even Indianapolis), not from "pool"(as in Liverpool), the anglo saxon word for a contained body of water or puddle. Much as those of us who grew up in the 60s, influenced by the music of such Liverpuddlians as the Beatles, would prefer this association, it is simply wrong.

Although Sebastopol is a community that welcomes diversity in our expression we should take care that in adopting the false analogy from England we risk fouling the historical source waters of our linguistic tradition. Let us preserve our small town character!

---

Shepherd is simply right, friend Larry. Puddles are an endangered specie(s); as Sebastopuddlians, it is our duty, nay destiny, to protect, defend and enhance them whenever and wherever possible. Especially now, as they are so rare.
I also like the way "pud" sounds. Every linguist knows that a sound ending in a hard consonant, such as "d", is more emphatic, more powerful, than one ending in the soft "l".
Additionally, I love puddles; as a youth in the last century I went out of my way not to circumnavigate but to join them, with or without rain boots on, being careful all the while not to splash them out of existence.

So there.

:kidfight:

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Helen Shane:

I also like the way "pud" sounds. Every linguist knows that a sound ending in a hard consonant, such as "d", is more emphatic, more powerful, than one ending in the soft "l".

---

So, it's "Sebastopud"? :wink:

From an online slang dictionary:
pud Noun. The penis, or genitals. See 'pound one's pud'. :banana:

All seriousness aside, I agree that language benefits from play. However, by severing an historical etymological lineage, we diminish linguistic diversity and our lose connection to the deep roots of culture. Of the 6000 to 7000 languages in the world, linguists warn that between 50% and 90% are at risk of extinction by the end of this century.

Linguistic diversity is as vital to a healthy world community as biological diversity is to a healthy ecosystem.

I'd like to see our lovely town revert to the name it had when it was a peaceful Pomo Village: Batikletcawi.

Batikletcawi means where elderberries grow, far more auspicious than a moniker adopted after a bar fight during the Crimean war.

We pride ourselves on moving toward sustainability, so why not restore the name used by people who were truly and profoundly sustainable here for thousands of years?

I like Sandy's idea, as well as her painting. We live in an area historically famous for the growth of berries. The peaceful Pomo named our lovely town after berries, and then in the l920s it was apparently the most productive county in the nation when it came to berries. I understand that there were many berry co-ops back then and companion planting of berries among fruit trees. Since grapes are a kind of berry, it is currently the most lucrative berry county in the United States.

One language change that I want to highly criticize is the transformation of the natural "Redwood Empire" into the commercial "Wine Country."

Your Sebastopuddlian, berry-growing friend Shepherd

"pool" is how it was pronounced 60 years ago when i first heard it....back when Guerneville was given an extra syllable in the middle: "Grrneeville".

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

A webpage on how to pronounce "Sebastopol" gave the last syllable as "pall". However, when I specified "Sebastopol, CA", the two pages I checked gave it as "pole", which is how I've always pronounced it. I guess the "pall" pronunciation may be correct for the Russian Sebastopol. What has always sounded sorta dumb to me is when folks pronounce it "pool", which sure can't be derived from the spelling by any pronunciation rules I've ever heard of. I reckon that's just another sign that we're living in the post-literate age.

---

my fav pronunciation is seebasstoepull for its sheer headscratching humor. a town, named during a bar fight, during a war, best known by a poem, the charge of the light brigade? wacco is a faint ecco hear in westsoco.

maybe it could be added to the welcome signs, with pomo approval.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

best known by a poem...

---

What would that be?

"Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???"

How about Sebastopolacks? Think of all the good jokes we could come up with!

Reeealy Dixon, don't you think we have enough on our wacky wacco plates without borrowing trouble? As to changing the name from Sebastopol to something else, given my three Russian grandparents, I am very fond of the name Sebastopol and would like to keep it that.

Back to polians or pudlians. Can we stick to that and simply do a straw poll on how we citizens of west county wish to be known? In addition to all my foregoing reasons to want to vote for puds, rather than pols, I'd sooner be thought of as a genderless pud rather than a pol, as i poitician. Now, isn't that reason enuf. May not be purty, but it is substantive.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

"Sebastopolians or Sebastopuddlians or ???"

How about Sebastopolacks? Think of all the good jokes we could come up with!

---

Good idea. And I appreciate your adding, "with Pomo approval." Those small steps of respect are so vital.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

maybe it could be added to the welcome signs, with pomo approval.

---

Please lets stand up for Redwood Empire rather than Wine Country. Grapes, and wine, come and go. Redwoods are here forever.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

One language change that I want to highly criticize is the transformation of the natural "Redwood Empire" into the commercial "Wine Country."

Your Sebastopuddlian, berry-growing friend Shepherd

---

Sebastopals

Sebastopeople

Sebastopods

Sebastofools

Sebastopeeps

Sebastopoodles

Sebastopots

Sebastofoodies


This is fun but I’ll stop there....

How about "Sebastards"? Better to be illegitimate than a pud/putz?

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

So, it's "Sebastopud"? :wink:

From an online slang dictionary:
pud Noun. The penis, or genitals. See 'pound one's pud'. :banana:

---

How about uber chic Sebastopolitans? From where else but our fair city of Sebastopolis!

Sebastopuddlian birds, leaves, rain dances & bagged leaves

Little birds, big birds, soaring birds, ground birds—I see them out the large window in my redwood cabin in the trees, the air, and sometimes frolicking in the puddles. They remind me to play more and enjoy life.

Yes, I think of them as puddle-paddling Sebastopuddlian birds. You can call them Sebastopolian birds, if you like, but it is not as endearing, in my opinion.

Some of them will soon be flying away to the South, migrating. I will miss them. I do get irritated by the woodpecker who keeps drilling holes in my cabin. And those predatory jays, trying to dominate. But it is all good. It is all good, as well as miraculous. You are all good, even those of you who think I am so “wrong.”

While recently playing at the dog park with my companion, a Catahoula leopard hound--whom some call the Louisiana swamp dog--a poodle came up. Her owner explained that poodle is German for puddle, which I consider another good reason for my self-identity as a Sebastopuddlian. I will not label you “wrong,” “inflammatory,” “divisive” or anything else negative if you self-identity as a Sebastopolian. May we live in peace, with a sense of humor.

By the way, if any of you have bagged leaves, I can come pick them up around Sebastopol and Cotati. I can even provide you bags. I use them for mulch on my boysenberry crop. I can also use manure, wood chips, wool, grass clips, and other organic matter free of twigs and branches. Since I need to then unbag them, I do not have the energy to put them into bags.

May the puddles soon return, or we will have a worse water shortage. I have been doing a Sebastopuddlian rain dance, which I hope works. I hope that you “poles” out there find ways to honor our needed puddles. :)

Let a thousand Sebastop......live--dialectical both/and, rather than dogmatic either/or.

Excellent! And Sebastapoliticos lean to the left...

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Victoria Street:

How about uber chic Sebastopolitans? From where else but our fair city of Sebastopolis!

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

best known by a poem...

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

What would that be?

---

It's a little piece of writing with fancy wording, sometimes rhyming.
Anything else I can clear up for you? Big Smile

I say it different ways at different times, depending on my mood. I've always liked the 'pool' sound the best... and I just have to laugh when I use it and get the odd looks :Yinyangv:
...and yes, I admit to using 'Frisco' on occasion, just for fun :wink2:

Tom

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by kpage9:

"pool" is how it was pronounced 60 years ago when i first heard it....back when Guerneville was given an extra syllable in the middle: "Grrneeville".

---

Okay, that's it. No F'in way will I accept the F word for San Francisco, where I was born and raised. Your use of it raises grave doubts on your judgment and intellect and sense of decorum, so I now consider your posts on the subject of Sebastopudlians invalid and not even worthy of consideration. Never mind winking. It won't wash and does nothing to soften your words or their intent.

I have better things to do than joust with fools, :shitstorm: whom I do not suffer gladly. I am donning my huff and leaving...until further notice. (my that felt good...I've been waiting for a chance to use this graphic).

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by tomcat:

I say it different ways at different times, depending on my mood. I've always liked the 'pool' sound the best... and I just have to laugh when I use it and get the odd looks :Yinyangv:
...and yes, I admit to using 'Frisco' on occasion, just for fun :wink2:

Tom

---

Frisco, Frisco, Frisco !
There! That felt good ! :nod:

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Helen Shane:

Okay, that's it. No F'in way will I accept the F word for San Francisco, where I was born and raised. Your use of it raises grave doubts on your judgment and intellect and sense of decorum, so I now consider your posts on the subject of Sebastopudlians invalid and not even worthy of consideration. Never mind winking. It won't wash and does nothing to soften your words or their intent.

I have better things to do than joust with fools, :shitstorm: whom I do not suffer gladly. I am donning my huff and leaving...until further notice. (my that felt good...I've been waiting for a chance to use this graphic).

---

I tend to agree with Shepherd, although I had kind of assumed from experience that the distinction was seasonal...:wink:

(Summertime = Sebastopol

Wintertime = Sebastopuddle)

THe name "Sebastopol" translated from Greek origin means 'place of respect'.....

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by applefan:

Please lets stand up for Redwood Empire rather than Wine Country. Grapes, and wine, come and go. Redwoods are here forever.

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

What would that be?

---

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade‎

The Charge of the Light Brigade

Half a league, half a league,
  Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death,
  Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
  Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
  Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
  Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
  All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
  Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
  Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
  All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
  Noble six hundred!

having lived there for decades, I've always thought of it as San Francity ... tho I seem to recall Herb Caen, king of three dots, referring to SamPan City ...

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by tomcat:

Frisco, Frisco, Frisco !
There! That felt good ! :nod:

---

Sebastopolites

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

Sebastopolites

---

Thank you, Edward!

how about just plain "Wacco's"!!!

from a Bizzerkelian
who thinks some ones are taking themselves Toooo seriously!

The problem with labels is it takes a lot of work to scrub the last one off...

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade‎

The Charge of the Light Brigade

---

Huh! I hadn't known that the poem came out of that war.

What's the analogy of the Light Brigade in our fair city? :waccosun:

The local constables could be Sebastapopos.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Glia:

How about "Sebastards"? Better to be illegitimate than a pud/putz?

---

The only people I've ever heard use 'Frisco' were either tight ass republicans or total rubes.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Helen Shane:

Okay, that's it. No F'in way will I accept the F word for San Francisco, where I was born and raised. Your use of it raises grave doubts on your judgment and intellect and sense of decorum, so I now consider your posts on the subject of Sebastopudlians invalid and not even worthy of consideration. Never mind winking. It won't wash and does nothing to soften your words or their intent.

I have better things to do than joust with fools, :shitstorm: whom I do not suffer gladly. I am donning my huff and leaving...until further notice. (my that felt good...I've been waiting for a chance to use this graphic).

---

I must say that I appreciate the humor, play, and fun that has risen in response to this discussion. We need to get beyond labeling mere differences as meaning that the other person is wrong, mean, or divisive. I love the English language--though I prefer the more romantic Spanish--and it is fun to play with it, rather than merely accept where things started. After all, we are in the 21st century.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by David MySky:

The local constables could be Sebastapopos.

---

I think San Francisco is the most interesting city in the United States. I also think that St. Francis of Assisi, that lover of animals, was the most interesting Catholic in history. Let's not forget that San Francisco was named after him.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by gardenmaniac:

having lived there for decades, I've always thought of it as San Francity ... tho I seem to recall Herb Caen, king of three dots, referring to SamPan City ...

---

You got that right! I do recall a now-deceased local labor leader in SF, otherwise known as "The City", pronounced it Sarancisco, but that was only because he had to speak around his cigar. Other than that, anyone with any class, intelligence or street cred called it San Francisco. No need for a nickname, or to shortalize, as one does with L.A.
So that's it, then, right?

It's San Francisco, and it's Sebastopudlians.

Happy Thanksgiving :htday4: and Happy Chanukah as well, the latter aka Hanaka.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by David MySky:

The only people I've ever heard use 'Frisco' were either tight ass republicans or total rubes.

---

That seems rather harsh. I hope we are all still just joking around here...
Anyone who says Frisco is disrespectful for the city is just trying to be condescending to the person that used the word.

The City was originally called Yerba Buena, Yerba Buena was renamed San Francisco on January 30 of 1847. San Francisco is known by many names now and who knows what it could be changed to in the future. Rappers call it Sco.

Many folks who didn't have such 'nasty labels' thrown at them have used Frisco, such as the "Frisco Bay Sports Club" and "Frisco bay volleyball". Otis Redding sings about heading for the Frisco Bay in his song "Dock Of The Bay". There is even a movie called Hell on Frisco Bay, a 1955 American crime film. Then there is the Sister Sledge song, "He's the Greatest Dancer" where Frisco is used.

Frisco is The proper term to use for "San Francisco" when you want to annoy uptight "Friscans".

As for Sebasto... Fill it in with whatever you feel is right for the moment, or be uptight. Your choice.

I rest my case.
Have a great anksgiving. (oh no! Is that a typo, or is he now dissin Thanksgiving?)

Tom

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by David MySky:

The only people I've ever heard use 'Frisco' were either tight ass republicans or total rubes.

---

Now, Tom, while we are just joking as to the seriousness of the crime, "we", and that is of course the royal "we" are not amused. It does seem disrespectful, and song singers and movie makers notwithstanding, native San Franciscans such as myself do not appreciate the F word. Fyi, Herb Caen, I will remind you, was a native Sacramentan, or Sacramentonian, or Sacramolian who dubbed his own native city Sacamenna; he called San Fransisco "Baghdad by the Bay", but never called it the F word.

I stand firm. Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Chanukah as well and to all a good night.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by tomcat:

That seems rather harsh. I hope we are all still just joking around here...
Anyone who says Frisco is disrespectful for the city is just trying to be condescending to the person that used the word.

---

I agree with your idea of a name. My niece's two kids are part Pomo. Lovely painting.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...7_22-11-48.png

I'd like to see our lovely town revert to the name it had when it was a peaceful Pomo Village: Batikletcawi.

Batikletcawi means where elderberries grow, far more auspicious than a moniker adopted after a bar fight during the Crimean war.

We pride ourselves on moving toward sustainability, so why not restore the name used by people who were truly and profoundly sustainable here for thousands of years?

---

This was posted on another BB I used to follow:

"Almost EVERYONE in Bayview, Tenderloin, and Fillmore call it "Frisco". So maybe it's the clueless, borderline racist yuppie (probably trying to pretend he's local by not calling it Frisco, despite the irony that mostly locals call it Frisco) that avoids calling it by that name?"

Any term can be used with pejorative overtones, and these change with time and punctuation. So let me wish a "happy Thursday to all turkeys" ... and "happy Thursday to all, turkeys"

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by tomcat:

That seems rather harsh. I hope we are all still just joking around here...
Anyone who says Frisco is disrespectful for the city is just trying to be condescending to the person that used the word...

---

"I'd like to see our lovely town revert to the name it had when it was a peaceful Pomo Village: Batikletcawi."

so would that make us batik-ers? batikis?

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by forveterans49:

I agree with your idea of a name. My niece's two kids are part Pomo. Lovely painting.

---

Language is many nuanced. Not to offend anyone God forbid, my experience is that locals who pronounced it Sepastopool were either from England or said it with that air of English superiority.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Conly:

how about just plain "Wacco's"!!!

from a Bizzerkelian
who thinks some ones are taking themselves Toooo seriously!

The problem with labels is it takes a lot of work to scrub the last one off...

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by gardenmaniac:

This was posted on another BB I used to follow:

"Almost EVERYONE in Bayview, Tenderloin, and Fillmore call it "Frisco". So maybe it's the clueless, borderline racist yuppie (probably trying to pretend he's local by not calling it Frisco, despite the irony that mostly locals call it Frisco) that avoids calling it by that name?"

Any term can be used with pejorative overtones, and these change with time and punctuation. So let me wish a "happy Thursday to all turkeys" ... and "happy Thursday to all, turkeys"

---

No one that is a true SAN FRANCISCAN or for that matter a true Northern Californian would ever use the term frisco that is pure heresy. Our family has lived in San Francisco for more one hundred and twenty years no member ever called it that ugly slang. You don't know what your talking about.

honest--"pool" is how it was said by everyone half a century ago.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by tommy:

Language is many nuanced. Not to offend anyone God forbid, my experience is that locals who pronounced it Sepastopool were either from England or said it with that air of English superiority.

---

Frisco…Sebastopolian

Thanks garden maniac, I was thrown by the statements that locals never call it Frisco. Parts of my family have lived in "the city" from the 1890's, and we always called it "Frisco" or "the city". We were from the Fillmore, Potrero, Mission, and Tenderloin areas. Hmmm. Maybe it is partly a "class" thing. Having first lived in Sebastopol in 1973, I have mostly referred to myself as a "Sebastopolian".

no need to shoot the messenger, I was sharing something I read elsewhere, not my personal opinion ... as a 40 year, albeit first-generation resident, I'm inclined to simply call it The City, capital T, capital C, which I most likely picked up reading Herb Caen.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Beverly Schenck:

No one that is a true SAN FRANCISCAN or for that matter a true Northern Californian would ever use the term frisco that is pure heresy. Our family has lived in San Francisco for more one hundred and twenty years no member ever called it that ugly slang. You don't know what your talking about.

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Beverly Schenck:

No one that is a true SAN FRANCISCAN or for that matter a true Northern Californian would ever use the term frisco that is pure heresy. Our family has lived in San Francisco for more one hundred and twenty years no member ever called it that ugly slang. You don't know what your talking about.

---

So, on the basis of what your family and their friends call San Francisco, you're willing to make absolutistic generalizations about what every San Franciscan calls that city? Or are you saying that anyone who calls it Frisco isn't a "true" San Franciscan? (If the latter, see the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.) And apparently you think that those who've reported on this thread their experience of "Frisco" being used commonly in some regions of the city are terribly misguided or...what? Lying? Stupid? Crazy?
I hope you're joking, Beverly, because I'd hate to think you're that much of a dipstick.

My favorite name for the town is "So-pass-the bowl"

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Beverly Schenck:

No one that is a true SAN FRANCISCAN or for that matter a true Northern Californian would ever use the term frisco that is pure heresy.

---

Urban legend.. promoted by Herb Caen

it's pretty hard to support claims about how people talked fifty or more years ago; memories aren't typically that reliable!!
written words last, though.

Quote:

---

(Richard) Everett did research. He found that when San Francisco really was a port, every salty dog called it Frisco. It was an affectionate nickname. Jack London wrote about the "Frisco Kid," Woody Guthrie called it Frisco in his 1941 "Ballad of Harry Bridges.""I am of Frisco ... the foghorns, the ocean, the hills, the sand dunes, the melancholy of the place. I love this city," William Saroyan wrote once.
His play, "The Time of Your Life," was set in a waterfront saloon. And it won a Pulitzer.
However, Everett said, the real San Franciscans, the ones that counted, looked down on the waterfront and its denizens. "It was a place to avoid," he said. "Full of low-brow, Barbary Coast types."

---

that was from the Chron...

and other people have been writing about it too..

and I found this claim: 'As can be verified by many 1890s San Francisco newspapers in the microfilm file of the San Francisco Main Library, use of the term FRISCO was once an accepted daily custom by advertisers. '
but also this:
'In 1905 the legislature of California appealed to President Theodore Roosevelt and the United States Post Office Department to discourage the practice of designating the Golden Gate city “Frisco” in addressing mail. The nickname has been vigorously condemned as an abomination by press and radio and by various civic organizations in San Francisco. This campaign against the word attracted so much attention at one time that the St. Louis and San Francisco Railway, commonly known and widely advertised as the “Frisco Line,”- was obliged by public opinion to omit that term from its advertising and office window display in San Francisco. '

tennyson wrote the poem a month after the battle and it was an instant hit (for the time, it took a few weeks to be printed in papers around the world). perhaps this poem is what inspired the local wags watching a fight in 1854. it is the one thing that has retained public memory from the Crimean war, besides the name of this town. there was probably more reporting about the siege of sevastopol, since it went on for a year. the siege as the inspiration for naming this town supports the version of the fight where one party holed up in the drygoods store. what fascinates me is how one persons comment renamed a sleepy crossroads. must have been a lot of drinking and storytelling going on!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Huh! I hadn't known that the poem came out of that war.

What's the analogy of the Light Brigade in our fair city? :waccosun:

---

Gee this thread has been as entertaining as NetFlix (before it crashed)

Speaking of L.A......... Why do so many blondes live in L.A.?



It is easier to SPELL!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Helen Shane:

Y.... Other than that, anyone with any class, intelligence or street cred called it San Francisco. No need for a nickname, or to shortalize, as one does with L.A.....

---

Way back in 1979, (before Sebastopol was cool) there were a few members of our commune who, upon contemplating the weekly trip to town to do laundry at Boomers, actually referred to the town as... Sebastopits.

It was kind of a redneckish town back then (or seemed so to us)... My, how things have changed!
Now, the town is much more... Sebastocool :snoopydance:

Tom

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by jimcorbett22:

My favorite name for the town is "So-pass-the bowl"

---

Unfortunately, most people wouldn't know how to pronouce this.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:

I'd like to see our lovely town revert to the name it had when it was a peaceful Pomo Village: Batikletcawi.

---

Getting back to the original thread question of whether the "correct" reference for Sebastopol residents is "Sebastopolians" or "Sebastopudlians", I would like to see a better defense from those who advocate the use of "Subastopudlians" than I've seen so far. (BTW, I have no doubt that Larry purposefully started this thread with a clearly mischievous but yet humorous intention to get a controversy going among our controversy-obsessed community, which has not disappointed.)

So far the "Sebastopolian" camp has some solid cred going for it. Clearly the town was named after "Sevastopol" on the Crimean Peninsula in Ukraine because of the that city holding out under a year-long siege, which won many admirers world-wide while it was happening, including, apparently, enough of the residents of this area in west Sonoma County, which at the time was named "Pine Grove", so that they agreed to change the name of their place to be that of a distant Crimean city. (Incidentally, around that same time there were four other towns in California named "Sebastopol", including what is now Yountville, but only our town kept the name over time, perhaps, I suspect -- and this is total speculation -- because of our proximity to the Russian outpost of Fort Ross and local Russian history, which includes the naming of Mt. St. Helena...despite the historical antagonism between Russian and Ukraine). Side note: Sevastopol also held out heroically under Axis (Nazi) attack during World War II.

Nobody contests that there is a clear connection with the name "Sevastopol" and the Greek word for "city" which is "pol" (not "pool"). Translations of the meaning of our town's name vary from "venerable city" to "respected place". But, one might ask, where is the etymological justification for referring to our town as "Sebastopool"? And, therefore, a reference to its residents as "Sebastopudlians"? The "pool" - "pudlian" link is directly connected with Liverpool in England, with "puddle" being a derogatory pun of "pool" by Liverpool's detractors, as was previously noted in the original posting of this thread. (Just look all this up on Google.) So why, I ask, are some Wacco-ites defending an historical pejorative reference to our beloved place?

But, granted, there is a certain intimate, insider familiarity with saying the term "Sebastopudlian". I confess I use the term quite a bit myself. So, I propose this: only locals (and those who are honorary locals) have proper license to refer to Sebastopol residents as Sebastopudlians. It's a self-deprocating but yet endearing term that should be reserved for use by local folks only. And only among ourselves. (I propose this while, at the same time, not intending to create any unfriendly polarity between "insiders" and "outsiders"). It's more like how a family might accept internal deprecating language among each other but not exactly take kindly to others using the same language.

To the world we are "Sebastopolians". And we will defend that term as most San Franciscans bristle at the use of the term "Frisco". (Weighing in on that one: I am a fifth generation-born Bay Area native, with family members who lived in San Francisco for generations. Not to dismiss those who have other direct experience, but in my family it was always considered a sign of a non-native to refer to San Francisco as "Frisco".)

So we are Sebastopolians. If you have earned some local cred (however that is defined) then you may refer to ourselves as Sebastopudlians, without appearing to be somewhat rude. In an endearing and loving way, of course.

Locally yours,

Scott

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Sereniti:

Gee this thread has been as entertaining as NetFlix (before it crashed)

Speaking of L.A......... Why do so many blondes live in L.A.?

It is easier to SPELL!

---

than S.F. ??? oh, Frisco...

as part of the english speaking world i doubt there was admiration round here for the russians in sevastopol holding out against the english french turks and whatnot. don't believe the spin on the city site. you don't know what you're writing about. the towns name is a joke during a fistfight, pure and simple. it was told again and again for almost 50 years till incorporation. it's still a joke, so we can say the name however we like. if you don't think its funny reach down deep and pull the pole out : )

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Scott McKeown;173966]Getting back to the original thread question of whether the "correct" reference for Sebastopol residents is "Sebastopolians" or "Sebastopudlians", I would like to see a better defense from those who advocate the use of "Subastopudlians" than I've seen so far. (BTW, I have no doubt that Larry purposefully started this thread with a clearly mischievous but yet humorous intention to get a controversy going among our controversy-obsessed community, which has not disappointed.)

So far the "Sebastopolian" camp has some solid cred going for it. Clearly the town was named after "Sevastopol" on the Crimean Peninsula in Ukraine because of the that city holding out under a year-long siege, which won many admirers world-wide while it was happening, including, apparently, enough of the residents of this area in west Sonoma County, which at the time was named "Pine Grove", so that they agreed to change the name of their place to be that of a distant Crimean city. (Incidentally, around that same time there were four other towns in California named "Sebastopol", including what is now Yountville, but only our town kept the name over time, perhaps, I suspect -- and this is [I]total[/I] speculation -- because of our proximity to the Russian outpost of Fort Ross and local Russian history, which includes the naming of Mt. St. Helena...despite the historical antagonism between Russian and Ukraine). Side note: Sevastopol also held out heroically under [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sevastopol_%281941%E2%80%9342%29:

Axis (Nazi) attack during World War II[/URL].

...

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

as part of the english speaking world i doubt there was admiration round here for the russians in sevastopol holding out against the english french turks and whatnot. don't believe the spin on the city site. you don't know what you're writing about. the towns name is a joke during a fistfight, pure and simple. it was told again and again for almost 50 years till incorporation. it's still a joke, so we can say the name however we like. if you don't think its funny reach down deep and pull the pole out : )

---

Right.

Got no disagreement from me about the name coming from a fight and a subsequent joke about it. But there is also some more to it. For example, among many other sources, according to a well-researched paper published in 2009 by John Cummings titled, "The Origin of the Name Sebastopol", which you can read here, there was indeed a considerable amount of local admiration for the Russians holding out against the English and others. Just one example (and from that paper linked above) below is a description of an event in San Francisco celebrating the siege of Sevastopol, with quotes from a correspondent for the Petaluma Journal in 1855:

While everybody enjoyed themselves immensely, the correspondent described the picnic at South Point as being more like “an Irish Fair.” “Torn coats, black eyes and bloody noses were prominent and wine bottles, loaves of bread and fowl flew around among the combatants.” “A roast chicken struck Council Dillon in the breast.” The activity at the picnic occurred among the flags of the participants. The picnic event committee apologized to the guests in the San Francisco morning paper for the actions of the picnic celebrants, and the apologetic article also stated that a crowd of at least 5,000 people had carried American and Russian flags and to show their sympathy for the Russians by marching to the residence of the Russian consulate and his family in San Francisco. (The estimate of 5,000 people was a very large crowd considering that the stated crowd was about one tenth of the entire population of San Francisco at the time.)

Incidentally, if there was no admiration for the Russians holding out round here then why were three other Northern California towns named Sebastopol right around that same time? Were there multiple coincidental fights and jokes with no connection whatsoever to the Russian city that was so prominent in the news at that time?



All this is really beside the point. I'm still waiting for an explanation of the source of the pronunciation "SebastoPOOL" (and with it the Liverpudlian pun reference to a puddle). It's agreed that local legend has it that the town name came from a fight. (Can’t yet find confirmation it was a bar fight, but that would seem to make sense if there was a bar here at that time.) Regardless, it still confirms the name coming from the Russian (at the time) city of Sevastopol, because, as the story goes, one of the fight combatants held out in a store and the joke referenced the holding out as in the siege of Sevastopol. But it's still "SebastoPOL,” with the Greek root word "pol" (or "polis") for "city".

So I'm just curious, where does the "pool" come from? Is it simply a mispronounced colloquialism that spontaneously emerged at some point in the past? (With apparently some rather ardent local supporters still today.) Or is there some other reason for it?

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Scott McKeown:

So I'm just curious, where does the "pool" come from? Is it simply a mispronounced colloquialism that spontaneously emerged at some point in the past? (With apparently some rather ardent local supporters still today.) Or is there some other reason for it?

---

I'll go with mispronounced colloquialism...

I've lived in the west county for 22+ years, and have for most of that time, in mid-winter, jokingly referred to it as Sebastopuddle. Like I said before, it depends on the season.:wink:

perhaps the area was waccoland then too. the irish rioted in boston against the civil war draft and there were many here who supported succession before during and after the civil war. it is a natural human repugnance to those who enforce authority and spout correctness. this pidgin lingo we try to communicate with is new and evolving in our own lifetimes. while it is wise to know as many forms of it as possible, it is classicist, racist, natavist and ignorant to insist on proper form. why do we dismiss the language of others? why make them less than?

so the word is that the new post office at the crossroads, the general store where one party took refuge from saloon fisticuffs and was shielded by the proprietor, had been labeled pinegrove. this was institutionally confusing as there were other pinegrove po,s in norcal. the joke spread widely enough so that the new label, (the name of the retreating person) sebastopol, was the best way to get the mail delivered. why pool? perhaps it depends on where you came from and who you identify with, as well as how much you are in touch with the need to play : )

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Scott McKeown:

Right.

Got no disagreement from me about the name coming from a fight and a subsequent joke about it. But there is also some more to it. For example, among many other sources, according to a well-researched paper published in 2009 by John Cummings titled, "The Origin of the Name Sebastopol", which you can read here, there was indeed a considerable amount of local admiration for the Russians holding out against the English and others. Just one example (and from that paper linked above) below is a description of an event in San Francisco celebrating the siege of Sevastopol, with quotes from a correspondent for the Petaluma Journal in 1855:

While everybody enjoyed themselves immensely, the correspondent described the picnic at South Point as being more like “an Irish Fair.” “Torn coats, black eyes and bloody noses were prominent and wine bottles, loaves of bread and fowl flew around among the combatants.” “A roast chicken struck Council Dillon in the breast.” The activity at the picnic occurred among the flags of the participants. The picnic event committee apologized to the guests in the San Francisco morning paper for the actions of the picnic celebrants, and the apologetic article also stated that a crowd of at least 5,000 people had carried American and Russian flags and to show their sympathy for the Russians by marching to the residence of the Russian consulate and his family in San Francisco. (The estimate of 5,000 people was a very large crowd considering that the stated crowd was about one tenth of the entire population of San Francisco at the time.)

Incidentally, if there was no admiration for the Russians holding out round here then why were three other Northern California towns named Sebastopol right around that same time? Were there multiple coincidental fights and jokes with no connection whatsoever to the Russian city that was so prominent in the news at that time?



All this is really beside the point. I'm still waiting for an explanation of the source of the pronunciation "SebastoPOOL" (and with it the Liverpudlian pun reference to a puddle). It's agreed that local legend has it that the town name came from a fight. (Can’t yet find confirmation it was a bar fight, but that would seem to make sense if there was a bar here at that time.) Regardless, it still confirms the name coming from the Russian (at the time) city of Sevastopol, because, as the story goes, one of the fight combatants held out in a store and the joke referenced the holding out as in the siege of Sevastopol. But it's still "SebastoPOL,” with the Greek root word "pol" (or "polis") for "city".

So I'm just curious, where does the "pool" come from? Is it simply a mispronounced colloquialism that spontaneously emerged at some point in the past? (With apparently some rather ardent local supporters still today.) Or is there some other reason for it?

---