Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

---

From Barry:

---

Efren's arraignment is set for this Friday, Aug 30th. I'm sure it is no accident that this is the day before the Labor Day weekend, a great time to bury bad news. No doubt that this was the work of Efren's lawyer, but was agreed to by the prosecutor, Cody Hunt, a Napa County deputy district attorney handling the case. The fishiness begins...

As I wrote earlier today in the Efren Returns! Now what about recall? thread, "My hope is that [Efren] will plead guilty to the misdemeanor of prowlingand that the felony burglary charges be dropped (he didn't "enter") so that he, the victim and the county can move forward."

Check out those legal definition links. They are surprisingly comprehensible!

I stand by my quote above. Sebastacat replied, copied below, raising doubt about whether he "Entered".

I'm completely fine if a plea bargain is reached for admitting guilt of a the misdemeanor of prowling, which it seems clear he was guilty of, and not being charged for burglary.

Regarding punishment, I'm fine with a relatively light sentence, as he has already be been punished quite enough. I'd like to see some required community service, perhaps speaking out about the dangers of alcohol, to both kids and the general public.

What do you think should happen at the arraignment?
Did he commit burglary (based on the news reports; ie did he "Enter")?
What should the punishment be?

Here's Sebastacat's reply to me earlier post:

---

From Sebastacat:

---

I wish to clear up something in a previous post made in response to mine.

From the Web site of the Law Offices of Hinkle, Jachimowicz, Pointer & Emanuel comes the following
information with respect to the definition of the crime of "Burglary":

"However a burglar breaks into a structure, they must also enter the structure in order to satisfy this element. The entry can be minimal; the burglar doesn't have to actually walk into a building in order to commit a burglary. Sticking a hand through a window counts as an entry sufficient to support a charge of burglary.

"It is also important to note that the entry has to occur without the consent of the person occupying the property."

I hope that this clears up the definition of the crime of "burglary."

And I'll stand by mine.

Once his hand passed the window line, he entered.

And let's not forget about "the rustling blinds."

Also, what you have cited here is the relevant statutory law.

But....let's not forget about the case law whereby the law has been interpreted.

You can't cite that here since that would be too voluminous to include!

We really have nothing to say about how the system will adjudicate this case. That is totally up to the prosecutor, Lawyers, and Judge... and possibly a Jury if it goes there. We are just the peanut gallery.
Kinda like reading about ancient Rome. : ))

We will all find out more in a few days when the glacially slow hand of justice sticks it's thumb up or down while blindfolded. Isn't it exciting?!
Tom

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat:

And I'll stand by mine.

Once his hand passed the window line, he entered.

And let's not forget about "the rustling blinds."

Also, what you have cited here is the relevant statutory law.

But....let's not forget about the case law whereby the law has been interpreted.

You can't cite that here since that would be too voluminous to include!

---

Well, I can guarantee YOU will be dismissed from the jury pool.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat:

And I'll stand by mine.

Once his hand passed the window line, he entered.

And let's not forget about "the rustling blinds."

Also, what you have cited here is the relevant statutory law.

But....let's not forget about the case law whereby the law has been interpreted.

You can't cite that here since that would be too voluminous to include!

---

And what makes YOU so sure?

.....

As far as burglary charges, I am sure Chris Adrian will twist, turn and dissect the law to his own best interest as it is what a lawyer like him will do for the type of clients he represents. What about prowling, lewd behavior in public and most despicable of all sexual assault. Remember that Efren just didn't get to her at the time before the cops arrived. Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it. I would ask that anyone going to Fridays meeting bring that up to the board of supervisors.

[I have moved my comments posted here earlier about this next delay of charging Efren to the new Carrillo Delays Until October 11 thread]

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by danargraves:

Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it.

---

I have a different point of view. Efren is a young man, no doubt suffering from "testosterone poisoning". It's an affliction shared by most of the gender at some point. It's one thing to have the urge and desire, it's another thing to act on it. Alcohol can anesthetize the "superego", allowing the "id" with its baser desires to come through.

I also note that Freud postulated that the id also contains a "death drive" which seems to also have been operative.

I sorta think that almost all men have "testosterone poisoning" (or the compulsion to propagate) most of their adult lives. It's called "thinking with your dick," and alcohol can certainly remove some of the restraints which keep some men from acting on the urges.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

I have a different point of view. Efren is a young man, no doubt suffering from "testosterone poisoning". It's an affliction shared by most of the gender at some point. It's one thing to have the urge and desire, it's another thing to act on it. Alcohol can anesthetize the "superego", allowing the "id" with its baser desires to come through.

I also note that Freud postulated that the id also contains a "death drive" which seems to also have been operative.

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by danargraves:

As far as burglary charges, I am sure Chris Adrian will twist, turn and dissect the law to his own best interest as it is what a lawyer like him will do for the type of clients he represents. What about prowling, lewd behavior in public and most despicable of all sexual assault. Remember that Efren just didn't get to her at the time before the cops arrived. Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it. I would ask that anyone going to Fridays meeting bring that up to the board of supervisors.

---

The increasing malice in this thread is disturbing. I have personally seen fairness, kindness, and concerned thoughtfulness from Chris Andrian over an extended period of time.

I would like to see Efren go through a restorative justice process where he must face his victim, hear exactly how he impacted her and her loved ones, as well as how he impacted law enforcement personnel and the community at large. The entire group, including Efren, could then agree on the best ways for Efren to make sincere amends to all who were affected, not just to the justice "system" or "the law" by having a judge decide what his punishment is.

Punishment doesn't work, if it did no one would commit crimes anymore.

Efren needs to deeply understand how he affected others with his behavior whether he was under the influence or not. That is the only way he can make REAL change. There needs to be ways for him to change so he doesn't make these kind of stupid choices again; ongoing participation in addiction treatment, perhaps 12 step meetings, counseling, mentoring, sexual harassment and violence against women education; all under supervision.

He is a young adult from a wonderful family and while I don't always agree with the decisions he makes, he's taken to this super responsible position with commitment and passion. He made a very sincere and heartfelt apology and admittance of guilt at his first board meeting and that is decidedly rare in our society. (Yes, he didn't do it right away, assuredly at the behest of his attorney, but that's the way our system is set up-it's adversarial to the nth degree and does not support people being accountable for what they do. It doesn't help to blame that on Chris Andrian -he's just doing his job within the parameters he is allowed) Efren deserves our forgiveness and support so he can give even more to his community. Punishing him by making him lose his job, sending him to jail, and stigmatizing him as irredeemable will punish the community as well.

We also need to embrace the victim, support her as much as possible, find ways for her to feel safe again in her own home. This kind of experience can scar a person for life, even though he never got in the house or touched her. I've already seen evidence of blaming her for what Efren did, which is another way to re-victimize her. She would not be forced to participate in a restorative process; there are many ways that she could share how she was harmed by his behavior without meeting him face to face, although that is the most effective.

I too am disturbed by the increasing malice in this thread as well as the letters to the editors in both the Press Democrat and the Bohemian. We're supposedly a progressive area yet I continuously see people demanding revenge and spouting hatred. Our culture is not going to change to the one we want unless we each make the choice to stop judging and rushing to demands for punishment and vengeance.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by american dream:

The increasing malice in this thread is disturbing. I have personally seen fairness, kindness, and concerned thoughtfulness from Chris Andrian over an extended period of time.

---

I have watched this and similar threads here with chagrin, with many gross misconceptions and misinformation. As a retired deputy probation officer I have some knowledge about how the system works. First of all, @danagraves, if you were in trouble Chris Andrian would be one of the lawyer's best equipped to defend you fairly. The self-interest he has is in representing his client's best interest. That is his job, what is what he is paid to do, and he is good at it. For your information, in an adversarial court system that is how it works. And yes, all the clients he represents have something in common, they have been accused of a crime. Of course, unless their case is taken on pro per, they must also have enough money to afford his top shelf fees. Remember, all of us have a right to the best defense available when accused of any crime, whether it be from a high priced attorney or a dedicated and overworked public defender.

Secondly, though not necessarily implied by your particular post, all the conjecture in the world does not make evidence that will be admissible in a court of law. A felony must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Was there indeed a breach in the window screen, can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, since there were no witnesses, that a specific crime occurred and that Efren Carrillo was the perpetrator? Were there fingerprints? Did a hand go through the screen and actually enter the interior? Charges are filed in the form of a complaint. The next step is either a preliminary hearing or Grand Jury hearing where the prosecutor will need to prove: if there is enough probable cause to believe that a crime was committed; and if so, is there enough probable cause to believe that the defendant is the person who committed the crime. What results if both these are found to be true, is either an indictment or what is called an "information." It is quite common for defendants to either waive the preliminary hearing or to call no witnesses at the prelim, for strategic reasons.

At this point that both the defense and the prosecution are entitled to discovery where all the documents related the police investigation (police reports) and the defenses own investigation (such as depositions) will be shared. It is quite possible that at the present stage, the defendant and his lawyer have not viewed what the prosecution has.

Even if the defendant is "held to answer" at the prelim under this lower standard, any trial must prove the same accusations "beyond a reasonable doubt." So, in the end it will not be what Mr. Carrillo did, but what can be proven unanimously to a jury. Prosecutors do not like to lose any more than defense attorneys, though prosecutors commonly overcharge so that a lesser and included offense can be the result of a "plea bargain." But the bottom line is, prosecutors do not like to present cases which they know they cannot prove.

If misdemeanor charges are entered, these crimes, by law, must have been witnessed, either by the arresting officer or a private citizen (such as the alleged victim). So, if there is to be any misdemeanor conviction in this case, it will likely be the result of a plea bargain, but only after the felony accusation passes the prelim stage and the prosecutor believes he/she can make a case "beyond a reasonable doubt."

The most likely result in this case, considering the defendant's lack of prior criminal convictions, his remorse, and the fact that he has entered treatment, is a diversion program. That of course assumes that there is no evidence establishing more serious and provable behavior that has not yet been revealed.

Finally, alcohol (and drugs) neither excuse nor justify criminal behavior. However, they are factors as we all know, in misguided thinking that leads to criminal behavior. Therefore a defendant's willingness to eliminate alcohol and/or drug use can be considered by a judge at sentencing, or more likely in this case, in accepting an agreement by the prosecution, the defense and the victim, that this case would best be handled through the diversion process, which will result in charges being set aside if the program is completed successfully. I would suggest that this is also the solution that best serves the safety of the citizens of this community, known for progressive and compassionate thinkers more than the angry and vindictive voices we have been hearing lately.

An 8/29/13 article authored on the subject by Press Democrat staff writer Paul Payne is fair, well written and quite informative:

https://www.watchsonomacounty.com/20...-clear-friday/

Bob Bulwa

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by danargraves:

As far as burglary charges, I am sure Chris Adrian will twist, turn and dissect the law to his own best interest as it is what a lawyer like him will do for the type of clients he represents. What about prowling, lewd behavior in public and most despicable of all sexual assault. Remember that Efren just didn't get to her at the time before the cops arrived. Drinking is not the core problem, his attitude, disrespect and predatory behavior towards women is. Drinking is his secondary problem which accelerates it. I would ask that anyone going to Fridays meeting bring that up to the board of supervisors.

---

Thank you for your post, rbulwa. But...

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rbulwa:

since there were no witnesses"?

---

That's not necessarily true. Please see the first two Press Democrat articles on this subject. I believe that they did refer to the possibility that there were, indeed, witnesses to this incident.

Freud? How about Darwin? This male thing has been explained by many. Bottom line is most men learn and know where their brain is located but apparently not all. I would argue for better education so the part that does symbols (brain) over comes the other parts that do hormones. No, this incident was far from 'funny' but the hormone posts give me a chuckle. Only some men are guided by the lower brain, most know the boundaries and rules even when goaded by alcohol or ego. It is a primitive response, not a Freudian response. You have to be socialized to act appropriately. The older you get, the more structured to social values one usually becomes.The vast majority of men get this. But not all. One has to be conscious (develop ego and superego awareness ( Freud) to overcome Darwin's natural influence of the wandering hormone. Apologies to Freud and Darwin.
Ernieman

Thank you Robert for this bit of sanity!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rbulwa:

I have watched this and similar threads here with chagrin, with many gross misconceptions and misinformation. As a retired deputy probation officer ...

An 8/29/13 article authored on the subject by Press Democrat staff writer Paul Payne is fair, well written and quite informative:

https://www.watchsonomacounty.com/20...-clear-friday/

Bob Bulwa

---

as a retired probation officer i would hope you know better. i am sure you dealt with many without the resources of efren. did you cut them a break or just do your job? i imagine the latter since you retired. i know you know better than i how the criminal justice system works. i think you just support efren because you like his politics ;...(

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rbulwa:

I have watched this and similar threads here with chagrin, with many gross misconceptions and misinformation. As a retired deputy probation officer I have some knowledge about how the system works.

---

Yes it is true that Efren is entitled to a proper defense as we all are, that is if we chose to commit such acts. We are all at choice and drunkenness is no excuse for such behavior. He is however entitled to come to his senses and get help to heal his heart. I wonder if Mr. Andrian would pull his magic if this was not a high profile case and remember many defenses are done not in the court room but elsewhere.

Mr Bulwa suggests that I am just full of BS just because he was a deputy P.O. and that he has the best perspective on this matter as he smugly implies. His job was to be involved with criminals in a system that ignores the women in most cases. In a culture where it is still "boys will be boys". His letter is in it's essence, only states he just has some conviction legal experience. I am glad he was a PO as we need people to be such. I have been on the front lines of this kind of thing for years with providing a short term shelter for abused women, cleaning up there damaged bodies and hearts, being with there frightened children, taking them to agents of shelters, dealing with the men involved sometimes at great risk. I have also coached the same men on better behavior and to help them find the place inside themselves that created the situation in the first place. This was known and supported by local law enforcement as well. Many of these men thanked me later for being there for them to help them recover. For the record it isn't always men that are the perpetrators. There are many women who are sexual predators as well.

As to punishment it would be great if this was handled in a tribal system as was suggested by a previous letter but that is just fantasy as we ( unfortunately) do not live that way today. Should he be let go of his job, YES! As a former employer I have experience with 2 men like that as well and what problems it cost my business. I had to fire them both. Efrin has shown himself not even to be aware of his issue with women as with his letter of contrition. It didn't even suggest his sexual behavior was a character flaw or even acknowledged, just his drunkenness. I am sorry I voted for him when I had.

There have been many opinions expressed here, including mine, about this matter as it affects all of us as a community, as a county and as a governed populace. This issue is just another example of how everyone needs to go deeper in our lives to educate ourselves with men and women being of equal worth even in the most hidden areas of thinking, speaking and actions and being responsible for it.

I may be wrong but I'm assuming that your comment about a "tribal system" was in response to my posting about a restorative justice process. If not, my apologies. If so, you need to get educated. Restorative Justice has been practiced right here in Sonoma County since 2001, with cooperation from the courts, probation, law enforcement, and the community. Since the very beginning, it was the most successful diversion program for youths and young adults, with success rates over 90%, satisfaction rates over 92% (law enforcement was 98%!), victim satisfaction rates over 90%, recidivism rates UNDER 10%. The next closest recidivism rate for a diversion program was somewhere around 40%.

I worked in this field for 10 years and worked on many many cases. I worked with young offenders who committed low level crimes, like shoplifting or vandalism, as well as very high level crimes, like vehicular manslaughter, and everything in between-arson, assault, burglary, cyber bullying, terrorist threats, graffiti vandalism (some with damages of thousands of dollars).

The main organization that brought Restorative Justice to Sonoma County is Restorative Resources, founded by two Sebastopol women, Jessalyn Nash and Janet Hughes, along with a small, but committed group of supporters including Judge Arnold Rosenfield and Judge Mark Tansil. All the police organizations in Sonoma County got on board, including CHP, all city police departments and Sonoma County Sheriffs Dept. Several of the smaller city departments refer cases directly to Restorative Resources.

The Restorative Justice process continues to be a very effective way to handle crime that serves everyone involved, gives the victim, law enforcement personnel, and the community a strong voice in how the case is handled, and reduces re-offending. IT IS NOT A FANTASY!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by danargraves:

As to punishment it would be great if this was handled in a tribal system as was suggested by a previous letter but that is just fantasy as we ( unfortunately) do not live that way today.

---

Thanks, Dan, for your enlightening post.

Your words, "if we chose to commit such acts," prove that you have a true grasp of the situation at hand
and, as far as I'm concerned, are some of the most salient and intelligent words that have been posted on this entire thread thus far.

No, Sebastacat, doesn't feel that you are "full of B.S." In fact, quite the opposite.

And they remind me of that life lesson which was instilled in me early on by my parents and others close to me:
You have to take responsibility for your actions. It's just a part of life.

But witness to what? WE don't know that yet. We will find out when the police report comes out.
It may be damning or it may just be that someone saw him outside in his undies.
Tom

I think what "we will find out when the police report comes out" is what the police decide to report.....

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by tomcat:

But witness to what? WE don't know that yet. We will find out when the police report comes out.
It may be damning or it may just be that someone saw him outside in his undies.
Tom

---

The North Bay Labor Council includes 65 affiliated unions and labor groups. This is a powerful organization which is well funded and discussing whether or not they will move ahead with a recall and put it up for vote to members. Even if Efren Carrillo remains in his position, I would imagine it will be difficult for him to command the same respect from his blue collar constituents which he enjoyed prior to this incident.

Restorative justice is working real well in neighborhood courts in San Francisco. They are increasing that systym there. I have experienced it and was very impressed.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by DreadTori:

I would like to see Efren go through a restorative justice process where he must face his victim, hear exactly how he impacted her and her loved ones, as well as how he impacted law enforcement personnel and the community at large.

---

Thank you! I think this topic of restorative justice needs alot of discussion and appreciate that it's being brought forth.

There is this incredible website about truth and reconciliation https://www.beyondintractability.org...reconciliation . Some may be familiar with what happened in S. Africa in 1995. There were a large number of activities which publically brought forth the atrocities of the apartheid era to be healed. Through reconciliation and the related processes of restorative and/or transitional justice, parties to the situation explore and overcome the pain brought on during the conflict and find ways to build trust and live cooperatively with each other. This is what we're going to need to change the paradigm of this warring world if we want to to survive into the future.

I also think it's important to look at ourselves and what these issues bring up for us all. Are we ready to really have peace or is it rhetoric or some future that isn't possible so we bang the drum and attach ourselves to some 'party' that will give us acceptance? What's it going to take to bring real peace if we're warring inside of ourselves and with others. I'm not saying that we shouldn't speak our truths and be present for what is important to us. But Inner exploration and release from our own shadow helps clear way so we can actually hold space in our families or community to create something different rather than punishment and retribution. These outdated modes are going to need to change its grip to move into real peace.

"Even though reconciliation mostly involves people talking to each other, it is not easy to achieve. Rather it is among the most difficult things people are ever called on to do emotionally. Victims have to forgive oppressors. The perpetrators of crimes against humanity have to admit their guilt and, with it, their arrogance." It's a process, but it needs to start now and in every situation.

And as a side note, forgiveness doesn't mean to forget what happened, but a release of being attached to whether another ever becomes accountable or admits what occurred. That person isn't the center of our peace. We are. The experience of true Forgiveness is an actual physical, emotional (and for me, spiritual) experience of bringing our own displaced energy and power back to ourselves that is running into another. We stop blaming, move out of the Drama Triangle (victim/rescuer/ persecutor/perp) and stop waiting for the other to wake up and get it. We take action in the present w/o carrying the other person with us. It's freeing beyond words. And a bigger picture is revealed in how that person or situation served us in a positive way in our growth, what we learned in the adversity. We can release this and it allows us to feel peace of mind...and quite possibly, an eventual peace in the world.

This article might have been mentioned before but it's worthy of reprint. https://visionthought.wordpress.com/...rican-culture/
“In the Babemba tribe of South Africa, when a person acts irresponsibly or unjustly, he is placed in the center of the village, alone and unfettered. All work ceases, and every man, woman, and child in the village gathers in a large circle around the accused individual.Then each person in the tribe speaks to the accused, one at a time, each recalling the good things the person in the center of the circle has done in his lifetime. Every incident, every experience that can be recalled with any detail and accuracy, is recounted. All his positive attributes, good deeds, strengths, and kindnesses are recited carefully and at length. This tribal ceremony often lasts for several days. At the end, the tribal circle is broken, a joyous celebration takes place, and the person is symbolically and literally welcomed back into the tribe.”

There are many cultures that use forgiveness as conflict resolution and to bring about justice. Whether Efron is stays on or is found guilty, we don't need to live in a prison cell of our minds in order for justice to occur and to feel peace in our lives.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by bodegahead:

Restorative justice is working real well in neighborhood courts in San Francisco. They are increasing that systym there. I have experienced it and was very impressed.

---

A beautiful concept, sharingwisdon, and an ideal to be taken seriously ...

I do wonder though, about the real possibility of this occurring. So often, aggressors are aggressive because of some inability to communicate about their pain ... not because of any fault in their character, but perhaps because of abuse in their own background which silences them and causes them to be distrusting and combative ... how can the community reach out to these people when they often hide this inner conflict?

Also, a lot of abuse in our world is ongoing and it's very difficult to forgive an oppressor for a situation which hasn't ended yet ... healing just isn't possible in the face of an attack ... when one is attacked the self-protection mechanism kicks in and defense and survival become the only reality ... how do we end these conflicts so that discussion and healing can actually take place?

Relatively small offenses, as in Efren's case, could definitely be forgiven, in my opinion ... but what about larger issues where family members are actually murdered? ... I know a local woman who claims that her child was murdered because of her political activism ... I don't know if this is true, but if it is, what possible resolution can she have? ... in cases like these, forgiveness is a tall order ...

Just my two cents worth ...

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:

Thank you! I think this topic of restorative justice needs alot of discussion and appreciate that it's being brought forth. ...

---

And therein lies the problem...

Many of us -- including me -- do NOT consider this to be a "relatively small offense."

And I'd wager to bet that the victim in all this -- the woman who was so terrorized by Efren's actions that she
felt compelled to call 9-1-1 twice to enlist police help -- is another.

And I will continue to speak out on behalf of the real victim in this case until true justice prevails, and I urge others to do so as well.

So far, the relative lack of acknowledgement for what she has gone through and is still having to endure as a result of Efren's conduct is appalling to me and many others with whom I have spoken personally.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

Relatively small offenses, as in Efren's case, could definitely be forgiven, in my opinion ... but what about larger issues where family members are actually murdered? ... I know a local woman who claims that her child was murdered because of her political activism ... I don't know if this is true, but if it is, what possible resolution can she have? ... in cases like these, forgiveness is a tall order ...

---

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat:

And therein lies the problem...

Many of us -- including me -- do NOT consider this to be a "relatively small offense."

And I'd wager to bet that the victim in all this -- the woman who was so terrorized by Efren's actions that she
felt compelled to call 9-1-1 twice to enlist police help -- is another.

And I will continue to speak out on behalf of the real victim in this case until true justice prevails, and I urge others to do so as well.

So far, the relative lack of acknowledgement for what she has gone through and is still having to endure as a result of Efren's conduct is appalling to me and many others with whom I have spoken personally.

---

Once again, Sebastacat, you are jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts. All we know is the woman called 911 twice, the second time to say the person knocked on her door and identified himself as a neighbor and left. Does that sound like she was terrorized? Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not heard from her or from the police. Why must you continue to assume Efren was up to something dark and evil and nefarious when you JUST DON'T KNOW? All the so called Efren defenders are saying is let's wait until the facts come out before making up our minds about this incident. Is that too much to ask for the so called "progressives" round here?

The facts that you have listed here are plenty for me to "jump" to a conclusion; if it had been my window, he might have been shot (yeah, I'm a gun-totin' Buddhist). I would not have had to be "terrorized" to shoot him, either.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

Once again, Sebastacat, you are jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts. All we know is the woman called 911 twice, the second time to say the person knocked on her door and identified himself as a neighbor and left. Does that sound like she was terrorized? Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not heard from her or from the police. Why must you continue to assume Efren was up to something dark and evil and nefarious when you JUST DON'T KNOW? All the so called Efren defenders are saying is let's wait until the facts come out before making up our minds about this incident. Is that too much to ask for the so called "progressives" round here?

---

jbox:

No, I am not jumping to conclusions.

Let us not forget that there have been no corrections, changes, deletions, additions, clarifications or anything of the like to any of the facts which have been reported by any news publication thus far.

I do not dispute the fact that E.C. has a right to a defense. But I take exception to your insinuation that the victim's second 9-1-1 call was possibly made to revoke the first call.

Let us also not forget that according to at least one news account, the sexual-assault unit was called in by the responding officers. That, to me, attests to the seriousness of this matter.

Jbox, I've no desire to argue with you, and there's no need for you to get so wound up at me that you feel that you must use capital letters to get your point across. You and others have your opinions about this matter; I and others have mine.

And I will continue to beseech others to demand the truth in this matter - even if no trial is ever had.

But above all else, I will continue to hold good thoughts and pray for the person whom I feel has been impacted most adversely in this matter - the victim.

And nothing you or anyone else will ever write or say is going to change that.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

Once again, Sebastacat, you are jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts. All we know is the woman called 911 twice, the second time to say the person knocked on her door and identified himself as a neighbor and left. Does that sound like she was terrorized? Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not heard from her or from the police. Why must you continue to assume Efren was up to something dark and evil and nefarious when you JUST DON'T KNOW? All the so called Efren defenders are saying is let's wait until the facts come out before making up our minds about this incident. Is that too much to ask for the so called "progressives" round here?

---

Your comment is misdirected ... I think that you intended to address jbox with this comment ...

In my post I went on to discuss ongoing violence and murder ... compared to these crimes, Efren's crime was minor ... he ripped a screen, scared a woman, and then went to her door to introduce himself ... compared to ongoing violence against someone and murder, this is indeed a relatively small offense ....

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat:

Arthunter:

No, I am not jumping to conclusions....

---

You are indeed correct, arthunter.....

I apologize for the misdirection. Thanks for pointing that out.

Which just goes to show: Sebastacat isn't PURfect!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

Your comment is misdirected ... I think that you intended to address jbox with this comment ...

---

it is probable that mr. carrillo cannot say anything about the victim until the case is resolved. he did, however, move so the woman would not be threatened by his living in the neighborhood.

i did not vote for him either time, but i am surprised at the venom that is being spewed at him. as a feminist, i deplore his actions; but as a citizen, i would like him to have a trial before being sentenced in the court of public opinion.

Please be aware that there is an extremely high probability that this case will never go to trial, as the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea. So if you think that we are going to get at the truth of this matter ONLY if there is a trial in the matter, that may just be wishful thinking.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by soulange:

but as a citizen, i would like him to have a trial before being sentenced in the court of public opinion.

---

Here's another misconception about police reports.....sigh......

it's not a matter of "...what the police decide to report...."

Police reports are seldom released to the public; there are real laws on the books governing privacy. When I got them during the course of my work, every person's name who was involved was redacted to protect their privacy. Their contact information was redacted too. Police reports are usually very dry; they tend to report "just the facts" with very little, if any conjecture about motives or reasons why someone did something unless it was stated by someone. Officers simply have no time to write long-winded reports; they are no longer allowed much overtime; they usually spend the time between calls trying to input their reports into their on-board laptops. Police reports cannot be changed once they have been submitted to the system and printed out, but they can have additions as new facts reveal themselves.

Detectives' reports are a little different and in my experience, would sometimes have a questioning or pondering tone about what might have happened or why someone did something, almost like thinking out loud (but really into a computer). It depended on the detective too; some were very verbose and others were incredibly tight-lipped.

When I worked in restorative justice, we didn't even get the police reports with all the names and contact info there; we had to ask for the complete one from Probation.

I understand that regular folks who have had no contact with law enforcement, the courts, or probation departments have no idea what the norm is and it's human nature to try to figure things out, which often leads to making stuff up or jumping to conclusions, which often turn out to be false.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

I think what "we will find out when the police report comes out" is what the police decide to report.....

---

What I meant was that the policeman decides what to put in the report that he turns in with the perp.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by DreadTori:

Here's another misconception about police reports.....sigh......

it's not a matter of "...what the police decide to report...."

---

A perp is a person, entitled to all considerations of human dignity and I guarantee 100% of the ( perps) became so out of desperation.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

What I meant was that the policeman decides what to put in the report that he turns in with the perp.

---

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. For over 25 years, I've worked with adults who were physically and sexually abused in childhood. I've also written books on the healing of abuse. I have heard the darkest of the Dark. I deeply understand what it takes to both remember these often repressed experiences, and the levels of pain one goes through to heal from this. I also understand about dissociative disorders due to childhood abuse, which are often not correctly identified and cause some to act out in behaviors that reenact the abuse they received to the level it was experienced (or worse). Most people don't recognize these patterns.

I agree that those who are actively perpetrating and are extremely dissociative, like they both know they did something to harm another and parts of them don't have a clue, need an area away from mainstream society to support their healing, not shut them away in the Prison corporations or the Big Pharm snake pits that exist. And not all want to heal, but they are still humans even if their actions speak differently. We have lived in a world of objectifying others, seeing them less than, and this needs to stop as well.

I don't have all the answers, for sure, as my focus is on helping with the healing aspect of trauma, but I know that there are think tanks and extremely creative and workable solutions being presented. Many people are bringing forth their brilliance in creating new healing modalities and communities, awakening to inspirational ideas that are manifesting in form on a daily basis. I've just been introduced to ways that help with PTSD quickly which was developed by a Vet looking at how to shift this faster. I've known there are many ways intuitively and have actually witnessed this occurring in the work that I do many times, but I'm always open to new ideas and applications. It's a time of 'what can be possible that supercedes what has been', and where do I want to fit into this with others. We are in very challenging but also incredibly transformative times.

One of the big things I feel is important is that people really learn to talk to each other in respectful ways so listening and sharing of ideas is possible. We are often so quick to overtalk and not hear what is being said, without asking the questions to get clarity. We trigger, stop being present with the other person and blame. We become sarcastic and shaming towards others. It's then not a place where open dialogue can really exist. This is the persecutor spot on the Drama Triangle. We often judge others before we actually know where they are coming from (right...like hasn't this been the controversial theme with Efren... but then he wasn't willing to talk at first either...and I really got that his statement to the supervisors was a huge deal for him and for those who could really 'hear' what it took to admit what he did). I'm a strong advocate of NVC and other communication techniques that help people pull out of the Drama Triangle.

I have had clients where family members were murdered. Through their deep inner strength, their amazing courage, and their awareness of not wanting to carry feelings of hatred, terror, despair as a life's burden, they chose to release into a process which allowed them to forgive those who did harm. It was so utterly sacred to be present for these situations. Again, it was a somatic, emotional, and spiritual experience for them. Let's not forget that there are lessons to be learned on both ends. And we are not responsible if the other learns them, just that we can experience peace of mind. The healing one doesn't even have to be in connection with the one who did harm or ever see them again (and many chose not to as it wouldn't benefit them in any way.) Once the lessons have been learned, they can be released. Decisions become a choice, not a 'Sophie's choice', when this healing process occurs. This is when the possibilities spring forth because there is a flow of energy that has opened up.

We can again look at what happened in South Africa during the apartheid period where people were tortured and murdered in front of others. Did you see the movie with Samuel L. Jackson, 'In My Country'? It was a story of admission, acknowledgment, releasing, redemption, about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It was so powerful!

If people truly understood that forgiveness is not what has been defined in an old world view of it and realize what it really is and entails, there might be more of a willingness to see how the outer world is reflecting already existing feelings within. I get that it’s a process, and it can take years depending on what happened, but it's still an energy of release moving in a direction of freedom...self liberation, and that's what we have to change first...ourselves. From there, the energy moves out into the world for expansion.

I appreciate that you asked the questions and hopefully others will join in with caring ideas. I may not participate that much, because I'm in the midst of writing another book about the healing of abuse. I care deeply about this world, but it has been in a Trauma Paradigm for way too long with a deep history of wars and the abuse. I have dreams that it can be a way better place once humanity has furthered its path of kindness and compassion. For me, that takes the path of forgiveness.

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
― Richard Buckminster Fuller

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

A beautiful concept, sharingwisdon, and an ideal to be taken seriously ...

I do wonder though, about the real possibility of this occurring. So often, aggressors are aggressive because of some inability to communicate about their pain ... not because of any fault in their character, but perhaps because of abuse in their own background which silences them and causes them to be distrusting and combative ... how can the community reach out to these people when they often hide this inner conflict?

Also, a lot of abuse in our world is ongoing and it's very difficult to forgive an oppressor for a situation which hasn't ended yet ... healing just isn't possible in the face of an attack ... when one is attacked the self-protection mechanism kicks in and defense and survival become the only reality ... how do we end these conflicts so that discussion and healing can actually take place?

Relatively small offenses, as in Efren's case, could definitely be forgiven, in my opinion ... but what about larger issues where family members are actually murdered? ... I know a local woman who claims that her child was murdered because of her political activism ... I don't know if this is true, but if it is, what possible resolution can she have? ... in cases like these, forgiveness is a tall order ...

Just my two cents worth ...

---

Thank you sharingwisdom, ... you give me hope ...

These are tough times and I sometimes think that we are just beginning to emerge from some kind of murky, emotional Dark Ages ... a time when most people were abused or discredited by programmed habits of judgement and insensitivity ... best to remember that we are all vulnerable human beings prone to emotional pain and defense mechanisms like addiction ...

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Efren's incident provoked some serious contemplation about compassion and forgiveness?... sometimes this seems like the hardest work on earth, but it sure would feel good to be on the receiving end of these gifts ....

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. For over 25 years, I've worked with adults who were physically and sexually abused in childhood. I've also...

---

Thank you, Sara S. for clarifying what you meant.

Police reports are incredibly dry; it's not really a matter of what the officer "decides" to put in it. There are rules around what he/she can report and how. I repeatedly found that I couldn't get a handle on what really happened until I talked with the officer, and I usually had a long list of questions about behavior, attitude, body language, tone of voice, etc. of the involved parties. Just like in the old Dragnet TV show back in the 70s, they only get to report "just the facts." Personally, I'd love to read the police report, but it probably wouldn't give me much info to go on, unfortunately.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

What I meant was that the policeman decides what to put in the report that he turns in with the perp.

---

Thank you, Sharingwisdom! You did honor to your name in this posting. I love to see this kind of deep, thoughtful response on these threads. I wonder are you familiar with Dr. Gabor Mate's work in Canada? I'm just reading his book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. It's a book I wish everyone would read.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. ...

---

Sebastacat, you are right that this will probably not make it to trial and it's true that the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea.

I want people to understand why that is the norm now. Like everything else in our society, courts are dependent on funding, usually from the federal, state, and county governments. And they have been deeply affected by the bad economy. There aren't enough courtrooms available for everyone to have a trial, plus for some people, taking a plea bargain is preferable to taking a chance on the outcome of a trial. So, it saves money to "plea out."

There is another reason why our courts are swamped by cases. Over the last 10-15 years, more and more mandatory sentence laws have been passed, usually because the government wants to appear "tough on crime." Remember in my earlier posts on this thread I talked about our natural proclivity to move into "revenge mode" and demand punishment? Well, we, the people, keep electing the people who talk the "tough on crime" language.

Unfortunately, the number of people sentenced to prison has risen dramatically. I routinely read of doubling and tripling of prison populations; look at our own state system, which is a mess at TRIPLE the level that is considered at capacity. The privatizing of prisons has contributed as well. (Leave it to Americans to find a way to make a profit off putting people in prison) I just read a statistic yesterday that stated that we have 5% of the world's population, but we have the highest rate of incarceration at 25%! That means that 25% of the people in prison in the world today are Americans. So much for "land of the free."

There is also the right to privacy, which may be invoked in a plea bargain where the defending attorney asks that records be sealed or only minimal information gets released. I don't think that's right, but it is what it is.

Personally, I'm not as interested in the facts of this case as much as I am wanting to see everyone involved have a voice, especially the victim and her loved ones, in the outcome. And, I would very much like to see all involved get whatever support they need to heal as much as possible, and be able to move forward in their lives. And that includes Efren.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat:

Please be aware that there is an extremely high probability that this case will never go to trial, as the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea. So if you think that we are going to get at the truth of this matter ONLY if there is a trial in the matter, that may just be wishful thinking.

---

I looked up Dr. Mate, and interestingly, Amy Goodman, from 'Democracy Now' did an interview with him so anyone who is interested can get a feeling for this man's work. https://www.democracynow.org/2010/2/3/addiction I'm impressed with his understanding of the correlation between abuse and addiction. I appreciate that he showed how things are set up against the infant in their socio-economic and environmental backgrounds that affect the brain chemistry from the start and their development. I've written similarly. I'm wondering if he is aware that the brain chemistry imbalance actually starts in utero through the hormones released by the mother in her stress...probably does.

I also wonder if he might be aware that there are technologies and modalities that can stop the drug use rather than setting up a system where there is an allowance of the addiction. Healing the trauma is very important, of course, yet the physiological addiction needs a space to be eliminated. In fact, there is a clinic in Canada that works with lasers to stop addiction. I had a friend's husband stop his drinking this way. https://www.alphalaserinfo.com/ Perhaps a step at a time. I appreciate you sharing this.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by DreadTori:

Thank you, Sharingwisdom! You did honor to your name in this posting. I love to see this kind of deep, thoughtful response on these threads. I wonder are you familiar with Dr. Gabor Mate's work in Canada? I'm just reading his book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. It's a book I wish everyone would read.

---

i disagree, pleas are the 90%+ norm for decades back because this is the way the punitive justice system works. is there any chance efren would choose to engage restorative practices in his criminal proceedings? in our justice system it is his choice which i imagine his lawyers advise him against since he is a power player with advantage. the obvious choice would be for him to step away from representing wacco land to focus on his personal issues with drinking, women and power. i don't see how he has any political future without doing this.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by DreadTori:

Sebastacat, you are right that this will probably not make it to trial and it's true that the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea.

I want people to understand why that is the norm now. Like everything else in our society, courts are dependent on funding, usually from the federal, state, and county governments. And they have been deeply affected by the bad economy. There aren't enough courtrooms available for everyone to have a trial, plus for some people, taking a plea bargain is preferable to taking a chance on the outcome of a trial. So, it saves money to "plea out."

There is another reason why our courts are swamped by cases. Over the last 10-15 years, more and more mandatory sentence laws have been passed, usually because the government wants to appear "tough on crime." Remember in my earlier posts on this thread I talked about our natural proclivity to move into "revenge mode" and demand punishment? Well, we, the people, keep electing the people who talk the "tough on crime" language.

Unfortunately, the number of people sentenced to prison has risen dramatically. I routinely read of doubling and tripling of prison populations; look at our own state system, which is a mess at TRIPLE the level that is considered at capacity. The privatizing of prisons has contributed as well. (Leave it to Americans to find a way to make a profit off putting people in prison) I just read a statistic yesterday that stated that we have 5% of the world's population, but we have the highest rate of incarceration at 25%! That means that 25% of the people in prison in the world today are Americans. So much for "land of the free."

There is also the right to privacy, which may be invoked in a plea bargain where the defending attorney asks that records be sealed or only minimal information gets released. I don't think that's right, but it is what it is.

Personally, I'm not as interested in the facts of this case as much as I am wanting to see everyone involved have a voice, especially the victim and her loved ones, in the outcome. And, I would very much like to see all involved get whatever support they need to heal as much as possible, and be able to move forward in their lives. And that includes Efren.

---

I very much appreciate this discussion. My point of view as a practitioner of Reichian work leads me to add that we should make a vital distinction between forgiveness on what we might call a spiritual or philosophical level, and forgiveness on a bioenergetic or physical level. On the philosophical level I would say that we are all driven to feel what we feel and do what we do by forces such as genetically determined personality tendencies and early family conditioning, plus what happens to us as we go on in life. From this standpoint it is meaningless to blame. We are what we are and do what we are impelled to do. From this standpoint even Hitler (always a favorite example!) was a victim, a victim of his own personality which led him to victimize others. We can feel compassion for this man who started out, like all of us, as an innocent child, whose painful experiences gradually turned him into a hateful psychopath. We can pity him even as we loathe him and the suffering he wreaked on others.

On the bioenergetic or physical level, however, when we are abused or victimized we get angry, and the earlier it starts in childhood and the longer the abuse continues, the deeper and more ingrained in our emotional and physical being the anger becomes. This anger is not dissipated by higher philosophical attitudes of forgiveness. We may succeed in suppressing conscious feelings of rage, but the suppressed impulses live on in characterological defense mechanisms and chronic physical tensions that can create all kinds of problems. This physiologically ingrained anger can only be ameliorated by actual physical and emotional release, and this requires courage, commitment, and focused effort. I say these things not as a theoretician but out of direct personal experience.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. For over 25 years, I've worked with adults who were physically and sexually abused in childhood. I've also written books on the healing of abuse. I have heard the darkest of the Dark. I deeply understand what it takes to both remember these often repressed experiences, and the levels of pain one goes through to heal from this. I also understand about dissociative disorders due to childhood abuse, which are often not correctly identified and cause some to act out in behaviors that reenact the abuse they received to the level it was experienced (or worse). Most people don't recognize these patterns.

I agree that those who are actively perpetrating and are extremely dissociative, like they both know they did something to harm another and parts of them don't have a clue, need an area away from mainstream society to support their healing, not shut them away in the Prison corporations or the Big Pharm snake pits that exist. And not all want to heal, but they are still humans even if their actions speak differently. We have lived in a world of objectifying others, seeing them less than, and this needs to stop as well.

I don't have all the answers, for sure, as my focus is on helping with the healing aspect of trauma, but I know that there are think tanks and extremely creative and workable solutions being presented. Many people are bringing forth their brilliance in creating new healing modalities and communities, awakening to inspirational ideas that are manifesting in form on a daily basis. ...

---

Rossmen, I don't know how far back the plea deals go in our history; I only know about what I saw while working with that system. You may be correct. I do know that plea deals have increased in the last twenty years, but as I said in my posting, so have mandatory sentences & so has the number of people who have been incarcerated.

I have no idea if Efren or his attorneys would be open to a restorative process. As an adult it would not be his choice; it would have to be the judge's choice. He or his attorneys could ask for it, but there is no guarantee that the judge would approve or that the victim would agree to participate. Victims have all the rights in restorative justice(RJ for here on out) and none of the obligations that the guilty person has. That is because RJ is very focused on preventing re-victimization, which happens often in the punitive and adversarial system we have now. Sometimes, in my work, it was the victim who asked for RJ after hearing about it somewhere. Wouldn't it be interesting if this woman victim involved would ask for it? My understanding is that Restorative Resources can work with individuals up to and including 26 years of age. Efren is 31? 32? If the judge on this case was open to it, he or she could recommend it as part of the plea deal or terms of the sentence or probation.

New Zealand has begun doing adult cases after over 25 years of the entire juvenile justice system being restorative. If there was a political will, that could happen here. If the community demanded it, it could happen here, but Americans are unfortunately still stuck in adolescent revenge and punishment fantasies. They believe that punishment works to deter crime because our political leaders (I use that word very loosely) tell them that constantly. What's that quote about repeating a lie enough times, people believe that it's the truth?

There's also huge money in building and maintaining prisons, lots of jobs & services that support it; entire towns are "prison towns" the way that they used to be "company towns." Susanville here in California is an example of that, but there are lots more all over the country. The privatizing of prisons is very profitable now; why would anyone want to support restorative justice? There's no money in it. And like I've said before on this thread, leave it to Americans to make a profit on incarcerating its citizens.

I don't have all the answers about what needs to happen in this particular case. It's obvious that Efren has some serious issues with alcohol and possibly around inappropriate and predatory behavior towards women.
Because I come from a compassionate place rather than a punitive place, I just want to see everyone involved be supported in whatever way they need so that they can heal as much as is possible and be able to move forward with their lives.

If Efren is guilty of attempted sexual assault then the question that needs to be asked is what happened to him that this is something he would accept as okay to do?

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

i disagree, pleas are the 90%+ norm for decades back because this is the way the punitive justice system works. is there any chance efren would choose to engage restorative practices in his criminal proceedings? in our justice system it is his choice which i imagine his lawyers advise him against since he is a power player with advantage. the obvious choice would be for him to step away from representing wacco land to focus on his personal issues with drinking, women and power. i don't see how he has any political future without doing this.

---

i also don't know the exact stats for criminal cases filed and also experience the trend being more plea resolutions. my guess is the underfunding of public defenders has the most to do with it. the stats are hard to come by because da's keep them secret. ravitch hasn't released any data. i read the 90%+ statistic recently in an article advocating for jury trial as the basis for the us justice system.

the restorative justice process i am most familiar with is restorative circles. new zealand family councils are similar to what restorative resources does for juveniles here in sonoma county, they are requested by either the offender or involved authorities.

what i would love effren to do is hold a public forum to address his actions with the community. restorative resources, recourse and world work facilitators, all active restorative practitioners here in sonoma county, could design a format. the peace and justice center and nvc community might provide additional support for all voices being heard.

true restorative practice requires the willingness for honesty and deep self reflection. it is both infinitely more difficult and rewarding than punishment biased justice. it is part of the work we as a society need to do to survive and thrive through an increasingly rapid state of change. effren has a chance here for inspirational leadership. i just don't think he has the balls.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by DreadTori:

Rossmen, I don't know how far back the plea deals go in our history; I only know about what I saw while working with that system. You may be correct. I do know...

---

I wonder if you missed the point of what I wrote as the process of forgiveness in my explanation of it, Richard. I wrote it in two postings so maybe you didn't see the first one. I said it IS a process of release, so I don't disagree with you. I wasn't being ungrounded or pollyannish about this at all. I understand what it takes to uncover the depths of feelings and issues in abuse and then allow for the release, but forgiveness is not separate from this...it is the process of release that can go through many levels until there is no charge toward the situation or person, like a plug pulled out of a socket. a complete discharge, and a higher level of awareness of the entire situation is experienced. I invite you to re-read what I wrote for clarity.

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by occihoff:

I very much appreciate this discussion. My point of view as a practitioner of Reichian work leads me to add that we should make a vital distinction between forgiveness on what we might call a spiritual or philosophical level, and forgiveness on a bioenergetic or physical level. On the philosophical level I would say that we are all driven to feel what we feel and do what we do by forces such as genetically determined personality tendencies and early family conditioning, plus what happens to us as we go on in life. From this standpoint it is meaningless to blame. We are what we are and do what we are impelled to do. From this standpoint even Hitler (always a favorite example!) was a victim, a victim of his own personality which led him to victimize others. We can feel compassion for this man who started out, like all of us, as an innocent child, whose painful experiences gradually turned him into a hateful psychopath. We can pity him even as we loathe him and the suffering he wreaked on others.

On the bioenergetic or physical level, however, when we are abused or victimized we get angry, and the earlier it starts in childhood and the longer the abuse continues, the deeper and more ingrained in our emotional and physical being the anger becomes. This anger is not dissipated by higher philosophical attitudes of forgiveness. We may succeed in suppressing conscious feelings of rage, but the suppressed impulses live on in characterological defense mechanisms and chronic physical tensions that can create all kinds of problems. This physiologically ingrained anger can only be ameliorated by actual physical and emotional release, and this requires courage, commitment, and focused effort. I say these things not as a theoretician but out of direct personal experience.

---

Sharingwisdom, I'm sorry to say I never saw your post, but I imagine it was a good one. I try not to get too dragged in to these discussions because I have so many other things I must do, and these posts can get so engrossing!

Quote:

---

Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:

I wonder if you missed the point of what I wrote as the process of forgiveness in my explanation of it, Richard. I wrote it in two postings so maybe you didn't see the first one. I said it IS a process of release, so I don't disagree with you. I wasn't being ungrounded or pollyannish about this at all. I understand what it takes to uncover the depths of feelings and issues in abuse and then allow for the release, but forgiveness is not separate from this...it is the process of release that can go through many levels until there is no charge toward the situation or person, like a plug pulled out of a socket. a complete discharge, and a higher level of awareness of the entire situation is experienced. I invite you to re-read what I wrote for clarity.

---

Efren was charged with the misdemeanor of "peeking" today. I have started a new thread called "Efren charged with "misdemeanor peeking" in General Community to discuss this. I am closing this thread.