Enforce the Smart Meter Ban in Sebastopol

Ok, I'll agree there are legitimate privacy and security concerns w/ SmartMeters. Both need to be addressed by legislation.

The body of science simply does NOT support evidence of real harms. The WHO has been researching the issue for 20 years, with over 25,000 studies published.

Another of the lefts version of the rights "climage change denial" - willfully ignoring the massive body of evidence to the contrary while latching onto the few scientists who hold a contrary opinion- and insisting "they" are the only ones who have it right.

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Posted in reply to the post by SonomaPatientsCoop:

Another of the lefts version of the rights "climage change denial" - willfully ignoring the massive body of evidence to the contrary while latching onto the few scientists who hold a contrary opinion- and insisting "they" are the only ones who have it right.

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That's not quite an accurate representation - though I do agree with you that the left should be far more conscious of how many of their attitudes, arguments and issues are mirrors of crazy stuff from the right. You'd be more on track if you were talking about anti-vaxx. It's being pretty well established that most of what we fondly call 'thinking' is more instinctual, trusting sources that for whatever reason resonates with our worldview. It's really not fair to say 'check the science' -- virtually none of us can do that accurately. You can often spot bogus science, but not always. There are what look to be credible sources who share the EMF concerns. As you point out, the concensus point of view is that these concerns aren't well enough established, but those who believe strongly in the precautionary principle (I don't...) can't be so easily dismissed as willfully ignorant cranks. Sadly to say, this is somewhat true of the climate-change deniers too. It's kind of the reverse of the precautionary principle there, though - well, maybe it's taking precautions that they don't lose any money. Like Upton Sinclair pointed out, it's often hard to accept new information that you think will be detrimental to your interests.

I think it's really important for those on the left to be very careful about how they talk about things like this. Every time I see someone talking about those wacky things 'libtards' believe without proof, I cringe - it's giving ammunition to those who would discredit progressive beliefs just when we need credibility the most. It's up to the good guys to be the voice of reason.

The WHO classifies EMF, including the kind of radiation smart meters emit as 2B (possibly carcinogenic) based on science linking cell phone radiation to gliomas, deadly brain tumors. How can that in any way be construed to mean no evidence of real harm?

From Joel Moskowitz, PhD Berkeley: "Two hundred and twenty-three scientists from 41 nations have signed the International EMF Scientist Appeal. All have published peer-reviewed research on electromagnetic fields (EMF) and biology or health. In addition, ten scientists who have published peer-reviewed research on related topics have signed this petition."
https://www.saferemr.com/2015/06/int...appeal-on.html

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Posted in reply to the post by SonomaPatientsCoop:

The body of science simply does NOT support evidence of real harms. The WHO has been researching the issue for 20 years, with over 25,000 studies published.

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Because there are no dates or information regarding the differences among units or manufacturing in these reports, you are paint with a broad brush. It's exactly like calling all the KOWS people bad and uncaring as a group due to the actions of one person. If these factors are codified into law in 'other countries' then the manufactures will make changes to make their products more safe. Why wouldn't they? Not everybody's out to get you!

Anecdotal evidence is not conclusive, either. I don't see the numbers, except for stupid highway patrolmen holding powerful radar units in their crotches for hours at a time. And Johnny Cochran.

And you've ruined any confidence I have in your information when you mentioned earlier that the main reason for the smart meters is to SPY ON US???
Good god, girl. you totally lost your credibility now.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

(buffalo springfield, 1968)

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Posted in reply to the post by Sasu:

The WHO classifies EMF, including the kind of radiation smart meters emit as 2B (possibly carcinogenic) based on science linking cell phone radiation to gliomas, deadly brain tumors. How can that in any way be construed to mean no evidence of real harm?

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I'm curious how you think you're going to get that kind of help from your smart meter. I've had one for 3 years and I don't get any more information about usage than I got with my old meter. I'm especially wondering why you think the meter will help you with waste. How would the meter know if you were wasting power?

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Posted in reply to the post by sqb:

I can't wait to get mine. It will help me keep track of power usage and waste. Gas too.

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Um... because I will can get information immediately on usage and know what I was using and how much I am paying at any given time.

Loads can be measured. The internet of things offers many devices that can get a signature by noting the load.
Just like a fitbit knows the difference between walking and stairs.

Welcome to the future!

I, however, will not get into a self-driving car in case you think I"m a blind futurist.

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Posted in reply to the post by rekarp:

I'm curious how you think you're going to get that kind of help from your smart meter. I've had one for 3 years and I don't get any more information about usage than I got with my old meter. I'm especially wondering why you think the meter will help you with waste. How would the meter know if you were wasting power?

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I'm not sure what you're saying. What existing devices interface with the smartmeter? How will that be of help to you

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Posted in reply to the post by sqb:

Um... because I will can get information immediately on usage and know what I was using and how much I am paying at any given time.

Loads can be measured. The internet of things offers many devices that can get a signature by noting the load...

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Posted in reply to the post by sqb:

I, however, will not get into a self-driving car in case you think I"m a blind futurist.

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I'm looking forward to them - now horses, hell if I'd ever get on one of those.

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Posted in reply to the post by rekarp:

I'm curious how you think you're going to get that kind of help from your smart meter. I've had one for 3 years and I don't get any more information about usage than I got with my old meter. I'm especially wondering why you think the meter will help you with waste. How would the meter know if you were wasting power?

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You do realize there are currently (and an ever increasing) number of products that interface with Smart Meters?

You can set your washer/dryer to run when energy demand (and cost) is low. Water heaters that can adjust their hold temperature based on demand/cost/and when you are liekly home to actually use that hot water.

Having lived off grid for ~15 years of my life- consciousness of your energy use is THE factor in reducing your energy use. And smart meters, and the growing reality of connected technologies can play a major role in reducing energy consumption- and reducing the use by the grid of the most polluting forms of power production that are used to meet peak needs.

Yes- you and I may not have most, or any of these devices at the moment. But, like it or not- it is the future. And it will not only save energy, it will help reduce the construction of new power plants.

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Posted in reply to the post by sqb:

I, however, will not get into a self-driving car in case you think I"m a blind futurist.

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In fact, if you were a blind futurist (you might prefer the term sight challenged) you would be very appreciative of having a self driving car, I would expect. Also if you were aged and infirmed.

I am not going to turn off my router. Why would I?

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Posted in reply to the post by Sasu:

Wi-fi routers can be turned off, and normally their strength and range are less than smart meters. Smart meters cannot be turned off. In apartments there are often multiple meters on one building wall.

Sebastopol banned smart meters because of their effects on the community. We believe the city should be advising residents to use hardwired routers, and wired connections to protect children, communities and nature.

I have spent seven years in proceedings on smart meters at the California Public Utilities Commission. I researched 65,000 emails between PG&E and the CPUC on smart meters. From this experience, I firmly believe surveillance is the main reason smart meters are deployed.

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I noticed, when I lived in a very conservative area of California, that the opposition had to do with privacy. Unless I have an illegal indoors marijuana grow area, I was not worried. I suppose someone could tell if you were home by your electricity usage. This is actually used by the power company to balance the grid. We in northern California, may ask why. In southern California on hot days, the burden from air conditioners is extreme. Even though I don't have gas, I don't use my electric heat that much and I suspect others also don't. As for health concerns, this is the unscientific edge of the left along with being anti vaccination. The left and the right have problems with science they don't agree with. Science is not something you agree or disagree with, it just is science. If you disagree, go to the lab and prove it wrong. But vaccination and exposure to radiofrequency radiation is settled science. (I suspect the word "radiation" is the problem here)

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Posted in reply to the post by SonomaPatientsCoop:

Ok, I'll agree there are legitimate privacy and security concerns w/ SmartMeters. Both need to be addressed by legislation.

The body of science simply does NOT support evidence of real harms. The WHO has been researching the issue for 20 years, with over 25,000 studies published.

Another of the lefts version of the rights "climage change denial" - willfully ignoring the massive body of evidence to the contrary while latching onto the few scientists who hold a contrary opinion- and insisting "they" are the only ones who have it right.

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I used to live in a very conservative town in Calfornia. We never elected the nut-right to the city council. The folks were conservative Republicans but not from the Tea Party. They were businessmen and pragmatic. Unfortunatley I noticed when I moved into Sebastopol that there were some nut left people on the board. I would have welcomed Sonic having wireless throughout the town. At least nothing has been said about vaccinations but they should have checked to see who is in charge of utilities before trying to ban Smartmeters.

How interesting. If I buy an on-demand water heater (I live in an all electric place) I will look for that feature. I am on 100% Green from Sonoma power but it still affects the grid.

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Posted in reply to the post by SonomaPatientsCoop:

You do realize there are currently (and an ever increasing) number of products that interface with Smart Meters?

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The point being the WHO classifies radiation as a 2b carcinogen based on science. Radiation is radiation, the FCC calls it radiation. This is not based on anecdotal evidence.

Industry claims of smart meters saving money and reducing waste are untested, unproven and have been debunked. How they they possibly save energy when they are transmitting all the time, needing battery replacements, and not even working right?

If you really care about climate change, care about health, care about privacy, care about grid security you will educate yourself further, and not just be contented with industry soundbites.

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Posted in reply to the post by sqb:

Because there are no dates or information regarding the differences among units or manufacturing in these reports, you are paint with a broad brush.

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Sorry, I'm a little confused. How can industry claims be debunked if they are untested? Thanks.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sasu:

...Industry claims of smart meters saving money and reducing waste are untested, unproven and have been debunked. ....

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"Untested" meaning the industry and CPUC approved the deployment of smart meters without proving they would really save energy, save money etc.
EMF engineer Michael Neuert who has been testing for EMF's in our area since the 80's wrote this paper. Concerns Regarding Expected Energy Savings from PG&E Smart Meters https://emfsafetynetwork.org/wp-cont...ers-Neuert.pdf

Here's a video showing how the smart meter is using energy even with all the power to the house off.

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Posted in reply to the post by Peacemaker:

Sorry, I'm a little confused. How can industry claims be debunked if they are untested? Thanks.

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This video doesn't prove anything. The meter is powered by the incoming line, as is whatever communication method it uses. For all I know, it could be using 'carrier current' where a small signal is being sent back through the power line itself, not through the air. Y'know, like those old X-10 controllers you used to use to turn lights off and on.

The power companies have been considering carrier current technology for years, even at one point considering offering internet service this way, competing with the telephone and cable industry.

The LCD display shown was washed out with ambient light. We'll have to take the videographer's word for whatever was on the display, if it showed some kind of change or movement, it's probably what happens when the meter is hooked up with no load. At any rate this is a guy guessing, not science..


so much BS, so little time. (=Bad Science - what did you think I meant?)

What would be more useful is someone with a broadband spectrum analyzer (like the one that broadcast field engineers use) to stand outside an operating house with a SM... and display the frequencies and amplitude.

please. You are hurting yourself now...

Radiation is radiation? Nope. I am not an engineer but there are decided differences between ionizing radiation (Gamma Rays, Alpha and Beta Particles) and radiofrequency, infrared, visible light and ultraviolet.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sasu:

The point being the WHO classifies radiation as a 2b carcinogen based on science. Radiation is radiation, the FCC calls it radiation. ....

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Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NTSejgsjTc
One with spectrum analyzer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL2JQ0FbgvU

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Posted in reply to the post by sqb:

What would be more useful is someone with a broadband spectrum analyzer (like the one that broadcast field engineers use) to stand outside an operating house with a SM... and display the frequencies and amplitude.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sasu:

The point being the WHO classifies radiation as a 2b carcinogen based on science. Radiation is radiation, the FCC calls it radiation. This is not based on anecdotal evidence.

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Yes. The same can be said for the smoke detectors in your house. And many, many other things where an aspect is deemed potentially harmful.

The difference being- based on science- harmful levels (and to be honest, well below harmful levels) are heavily regulated.

You do realize everything from water to oxygen are extremely dangerous, even fatal, at levels above what is deemed, and regulated, as safe?

FYI- SmartMeters use the GSM 2 standard. Arguably the biggest concern with them- if you search for the Chaos Conference Smart Meter Hacking, from Guernsey in 2016- it's pretty arbitrary to take over control of a smart meter- indeed, a whole neighborhood of them. They authenticate to the tower- the tower doesn't authenticate to them. So all you need is a simple GSM 2 transmitter with a stronger single then the tower they report to. At which point- you can change billing. See the power used and get a pretty good idea if someone is home or not. Cut the power- including alarms. Or- overload the power causing an explosion or fire at the meter/panel. Highly unlikely- but pretty arbitrary to do.

Oh- btw- my real point was- the information- and the science is all out there. If people bothered. But instead, we have misinformation and bad science being spread by people who get their "news" and their "facts" from Facebook et al...

Norm Alster exposes the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) in a paper published by Harvard University. “Captured agency: How the Federal Communications Commission is dominated by the industries it presumably regulates.” https://bit.ly/FCCcaptured Alster calls on the FCC to acknowledge there may be wireless health risks, to back off wi-fi promotion, to acknowledge children and pregnant women may be more vulnerable and more. Excerpts:

Perhaps the best example of how the FCC is tangled in a chain of corruption is the cell tower and antenna infrastructure that lies at the heart of the phenomenally successful wireless industry.

Personally, I don‘t believe that just because something can be done it should heedlessly be allowed. Murder, rape and Ponzi schemes are all doable but subject to prohibition and regulation. Government regulators have the responsibility to examine the consequences of new technologies and act to at least contain some of the worst. Beyond legislators and regulators, public outrage and the courts can also play a role but these can be muffled indefinitely by misinformation and bullying. Norm Alster

More on the inadequacy of the standards.

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Posted in reply to the post by SonomaPatientsCoop:

The difference being- based on science- harmful levels (and to be honest, well below harmful levels) are heavily regulated.

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You can watch the smart meter film "Take Back Your Power" for $3.95, or watch trailers here:
https://takebackyourpower.net/

having seen this film twice, i highly recommend that everyone see it - most certainly those engaged in this discussion.
i believe that the conversation will be VERY changed as a result of becoming aware of the information presented in it. the issues are far wider than they seem.
best, jude

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Posted in reply to the post by Sasu:

You can watch the smart meter film "Take Back Your Power" for $3.95, or watch trailers here:
https://takebackyourpower.net/

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Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:

having seen this film twice, i highly recommend that everyone see it - most certainly those engaged in this discussion.
i believe that the conversation will be VERY changed as a result of becoming aware of the information presented in it. the issues are far wider than they seem.
best, jude

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"Pictures or it didn't happen" is one of my favorite new figures of speech, but really, text is the medium of choice for presenting a reasoned argument. Video is a better tool for propagandists because of the way people react more emotionally to it, so that alone taints it a bit. It's inherently low-bandwidth information, too. Having it behind a paywall makes it even less suitable. Transcript somewhere? I'm at least mildly curious to see what's claimed as so compelling.

this film was shown in sebastopol a week or so ago, for $10 donation.

if you aren't willing to spend 4 bucks on viewing it 'in the comfort of your own home' you are clearly not sufficiently interested in the topic to pursue further discussion.

it has won about 6 awards from varied places. just watch it. sheeeeesh. jude

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Posted in reply to the post by Sasu:

Norm Alster exposes the .. (FCC)...Excerpts:

Perhaps the best example of how the FCC is tangled in a chain of corruption is the cell tower and antenna infrastructure that lies at the heart of the phenomenally successful wireless industry.

Personally, I don‘t believe that just because something can be done it should heedlessly be allowed. Murder, rape and Ponzi schemes are all doable but subject to prohibition and regulation.

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the earlier post about GSM arbitrary takeover kind of baffled me.. but this is taking us the rest of the way to full-blown conspiracy theory. Of course nearly all regulatory agencies are way too entwined with the business they regulate. Typically, the businesses have more to gain and lose, along with more money to spend, so therefore more interest and direct involvement with the process, than do many of those in the public that benefits from the regulation. That's easily taken as given. The model of the pig & the chicken regarding a stereotypical American breakfast applies - the chicken's involved, but the pig's committed! (There's a pleasant symmetry between the symbol of the pig and the corporation, too.) So they're going to push their interests - but there's nothing hidden about that. The rest of it, though? that's totally circular logic. The 'fact' that cellphone towers are harmful is demonstrated by the fact that the wireless industry-influenced FCC allows cellphone towers?

and the graceful slide from corruption in the FCC to rape, murder and, uh, Ponzi schemes kinda baffles me too.

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Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:

if you aren't willing to spend 4 bucks on viewing it 'in the comfort of your own home' you are clearly not sufficiently interested in the topic to pursue further discussion.

it has won about 6 awards from varied places. just watch it. sheeeeesh. jude

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the discussions on this topic aren't intended just as diversions, at least on the parts of several of the posters. Presumably one 'side' (horrible term, really) is pushing for allies and trying to convince the unconvinced. I'll reiterate my point - advocacy by video, especially paid video, is far less effective than text. But sure, it rallies the team pretty well.

so "podfish" (podfish?) for you, text is the only acceptable / highly preferable form of information?

and if i sent a link to a book, which you'd then need to order (that means $, yes), days for delivery,
and then hours spent reading it,
then be able to reference pages, and it's references, would that be more to your liking? how is that better?

this option costs LESS time AND money. it is VERY WELL DONE, garnering numerous awards, as i mentioned.

if text is your forte, go ahead: read a few books and/or a few dozen/hundred/thousand articles, studies, etc.
report back with your conclusion. or not.

it's what the filmmakers have done.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

the discussions on this topic aren't intended just as diversions, at least on the parts of several of the posters. Presumably one 'side' (horrible term, really) is pushing for allies and trying to convince the unconvinced. I'll reiterate my point - advocacy by video, especially paid video, is far less effective than text. But sure, it rallies the team pretty well.

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