CVS/Chase development proposal

At the last council meeting held re: the CVS developement, there was quite a bit of, not just concern, but outrage set squarely against this project. Those folks were told that this was an environmental impact meeting and that they would have a say at a later date. That "later date" never happened. The city council made the decision to exclude the citizens of Sebastopol and greenlight this project without any input from the people. Very discreetly, we're on a course to become another mall/town with more stores than we can shop at. With setbacks and codes being altered to please the developers, our city is slowly disappearing. We need guidelines as to developement in Sebastopol and people in office to enforce them, not bow down to corporate entities. What will happen to the smaller businesses that make this town what it is? Locally owned! Has anyone thought of the ramifications involved? Without public opinion, it is impossible to do so. You want another Santa Rosa? I say move to Santa Rosa. I'm sickened by the course our local "government" has taken. I fear we have crossed the Rubicon. If we are excluded in the process from the beginning. I see no reason to exclude ourselves from the results. Boycott CVS.

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

A few comments on previous posts:

1. The only way thoughts, comments or ideas can be useful is if they are framed in an understanding of the way the City works and what powers the City has to govern development. The City has limited power over a person's property rights and cannot stop a development for vague reasons. Our City government only has powers granted to it by our General Plan and Municipal Code (zoning). If they take action, they need to site the chapter and section of the code that gives them the power to do so. That's why the Planning Commission's decision was overturned. They didn't cite the specific reasons and their related authority in denying the application. Any action by the City to act otherwise will result in lawsuits that will cost a lot and the City will loose.

2. The Pellini property has been vacant for a long time and there are quite a few other large lots currently for sale right in the center of town. If an arts center or some other use is desirable, someone needs to start working on a plan to make it happen. Being reactionary isn't going to get us what we want and City Government does not have the resources to do it for us. Ideas are great but useless if no one can forward a plan, make commitments and start writing big checks. We need to shift out of "protest" mode and into "proactive" mode.

3. I know a lot of people do not support development, but that view is unsustainable. The only way to preserve the open spaces between towns and cities in Sonoma county is by increasing density in existing towns. Unfortunately, our zoning codes are backwards; they make it easiest to develop on the periphery of towns where land is cheapest and comes in big chunks. This results in sprawl that develops precious open and agricultural land and destroys our rural buffers between cities. We need to work to reverse our zoning laws to make it easiest to develop in the center of town and hardest to build on the outskirts.

4. Remember that we have to respond to the proposal that is on the table; CVS and Chase Bank. Our City does not have the authority to stop it outright, so the best we can do is demand that the design be really good. My opinion is that buildings need to be moved close together with a walkway between them, eliminating the parking lot between buildings and leaving the land to the South open for future development.

We have made significant progress, but are not done by a long shot. The current proposal has a MUCH better designed CVS building elevations. Now we need them to fix the suburban site plan (it still stinks) by moving the buildings together to remove the big parking lot gap between them, show us the corner of 12 & 116 and show us the Chase building.

Show up on August 3 and make a case for great design!

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It appears to me that the general outrage is about the intrusion of national and international corporate franchises. As you've correctly outlined the process and limitation cities have regarding private property, the system is set up to favor corporations that have the money to purchase prime real estate. Communities are left with no choice but to allow the corporations to move in, even criminal enterprises like Chase.

The question is, how can people take back their communities to build what the community needs and desires vs. big business that profits from, but has no concern for, the community? Corporations play a mean game -- like a combination of Monopoly and Chess. We are the the pawns who sometimes don't collect $200 but go directly to jail. But with some skill, pawns can checkmate a king. Where there is a will and organization there are possibilities for real change.

eeeeeow you are confused. It was at the Planning commission where the outrage was expressed and the PC said no to the project. It was then appealed to the Council. At the Council meeting, there were very few speakers against the project and many in favor. They DID accept input - it was a public hearing - announced here and in many other places. No one on the Council said anything about a later date - they were very clear that they were reversing the PC's decision. They did say that input would still be taken at the Design Review Board which is referenced in this thread. I was at this City Council meeting - were you? It doesn't sound like the same meeting.

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Posted in reply to the post by eeeeeeow:

At the last council meeting held re: the CVS developement, there was quite a bit of, not just concern, but outrage set squarely against this project. Those folks were told that this was an environmental impact meeting and that they would have a say at a later date. That "later date" never happened. The city council made the decision to exclude the citizens of Sebastopol and greenlight this project without any input from the people. Very discreetly, we're on a course to become another mall/town with more stores than we can shop at. With setbacks and codes being altered to please the developers, our city is slowly disappearing. We need guidelines as to developement in Sebastopol and people in office to enforce them, not bow down to corporate entities. What will happen to the smaller businesses that make this town what it is? Locally owned! Has anyone thought of the ramifications involved? Without public opinion, it is impossible to do so. You want another Santa Rosa? I say move to Santa Rosa. I'm sickened by the course our local "government" has taken. I fear we have crossed the Rubicon. If we are excluded in the process from the beginning. I see no reason to exclude ourselves from the results. Boycott CVS.

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Community, I will be speaking during public comment at 6pm on Tuesday, Aug. 2 at the CITY COUNCIL meeting at the Youth Annex. I encourage all of you to come and continue to keep this issue alive. The project has not been approved.
PLEASE consider attending the Design Review Board meeting as well, on Wed. Aug 3rd, at 4pm. at CIty Hall I will be speaking there as well.
If you want to have an affect you need to get the hang of how things work and get involved, wacco is a great network for information then we need to run with it.
I have been working on local issues for over 15 years and even when it looks like a done deal, don't give up, Many times we have been successful in the 11th hour.
We can do a boycott online petition adding to the over 500 signatures already opposing, "If you build it we won't COME!
We can do a referendum, We can start to picket and ask people to stop shopping there now and move there money out of Chase to local banks.
What are you willing to do? What are your brainstorming ideas?
See you at the meetings! Yours in truth, Magick

I will see you at the meetings! My wife and I have already moved our money to a local bank. That's a good idea anyway, re: the local economy let alone an action to send a message. It shoould happen across America. These larger banks certainly have no interest in the needs of small communities.

The problem of living in a small town is the possibility that the town is run by small minds. The improvements needed in Sebastopol are few. This corner considered for the CVS fiasco could use a facelift, no doubt. The factory/warehouse area not far from that corner is another example. But, these areas could be transformed into neighborhoods with walk streets with housing and a diverse collection of locally owned businesses. To take the easy way out and let big business pull the strings on our city council is something that, unfortunately happens all over America.

Build on what we already have: a community that cares. A community that is involved and proud of where we live.

One more thing: we will not forget this come election day.

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Posted in reply to the post by Magick:

Community, I will be speaking during public comment at 6pm on Tuesday, Aug. 2 at the CITY COUNCIL meeting at the Youth Annex. I encourage all of you to come and continue to keep this issue alive. The project has not been approved.
PLEASE consider attending the Design Review Board meeting as well, on Wed. Aug 3rd, at 4pm. at CIty Hall I will be speaking there as well.
If you want to have an affect you need to get the hang of how things work and get involved, wacco is a great network for information then we need to run with it.
I have been working on local issues for over 15 years and even when it looks like a done deal, don't give up, Many times we have been successful in the 11th hour.
We can do a boycott online petition adding to the over 500 signatures already opposing, "If you build it we won't COME!
We can do a referendum, We can start to picket and ask people to stop shopping there now and move there money out of Chase to local banks.
What are you willing to do? What are your brainstorming ideas?
See you at the meetings! Yours in truth, Magick

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Go to the meetings and voice your oppositiomn: 6pm on Tuesday, Aug. 2 at the CITY COUNCIL meeting at the Youth Annex.

I encourage all of you to come and continue to keep this issue alive. The project has not been approved.

PLEASE consider attending the Design Review Board meeting as well, on Wed. Aug 3rd, at 4pm. at CIty Hall I will be speaking

https://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7149/cvsrender5.png

See a new article posted on the WaccoBB.net home page by Paul Fritz, a local Architect, on the proposed design of the CVS development.

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Posted in reply to the post by eeeeeeow:

Go to the meetings and voice your oppositiomn: 6pm on Tuesday, Aug. 2 at the CITY COUNCIL meeting at the Youth Annex.

I encourage all of you to come and continue to keep this issue alive. The project has not been approved.

PLEASE consider attending the Design Review Board meeting as well, on Wed. Aug 3rd, at 4pm. at CIty Hall I will be speaking

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And if you can't make it to the Design Review Board - write to them before Wed. This has an impact - send them good ideas, not attacks:

DRB appointees:
Peter Schurch [email protected]
Zachary Douch [email protected]
Bob Beauchamp [email protected]
Lynn Deedler [email protected]
Ron Basso [email protected]
Alternate Lindsay Masset [email protected]

Let your views be known. We can still have an impact on the design and sustainability of this project. Landscaping, solar panels, car charging stations, recycled materials, zero waste construction, pedestrian entrances, etc.

If/when you speak, please be respectful and constructive. Angry insulting speeches only have the opposite effect. Believe it or not, almost everyone has the best interests of Sebastopol at heart - we just have different perspectives. Let's make ours really effective.

Here is the letter I wrote - write your own:

Dear Design Review board members,

I had hoped to be at the meeting Wed, but now I discover I cannot attend, so here are my comments. Although I am very unhappy that a project like this is going into the center of our little town, I realize we may not be able to stop it. Therefore, I am counting on you to make sure it is the very best design possible. Here are some of my priorities:

The design needs to fit in with the look and feel of our current downtown.
The two buildings should be next to each other to give more of a downtown pedestrian street feel.
If they could add even another building for a restaurant or something in the site plan, that would be great infill.
It should be built as green as possible: solar panels, sustainable materials, car charging stations.
The windows should be REAL windows that look into the store and the people inside, not those fake display windows they are proposing.
If there is any way to add a second story for housing or office space that would be a huge improvement.
Landscaping and benches and people gathering nodes and bike racks should be included.
Signage should be subtle and fit in with other downtown signage.
There should be a clear pedestrian entrance off the street.

Please consider these comments as you conduct your review.

Thanks very much,
Marty Roberts
Robinson Rd.

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Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:

And if you can't make it to the Design Review Board - write to them before Wed. This has an impact - send them good ideas, not attacks:

DRB appointees:
Peter Schurch [email protected]
Zachary Douch [email protected]
Bob Beauchamp [email protected]
Lynn Deedler [email protected]
Ron Basso [email protected]
Alternate Lindsay Masset [email protected]

Let your views be known. We can still have an impact on the design and sustainability of this project. Landscaping, solar panels, car charging stations, recycled materials, zero waste construction, pedestrian entrances, etc.

If/when you speak, please be respectful and constructive. Angry insulting speeches only have the opposite effect. Believe it or not, almost everyone has the best interests of Sebastopol at heart - we just have different perspectives. Let's make ours really effective.

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There will be a total of 3 store locations which are vacant at the Redwood Shopping Center after CVS relocates. Won't that current location become blight? How does the council plan to handle that?

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Posted in reply to the post by dominus:

There will be a total of 3 store locations which are vacant at the Redwood Shopping Center after CVS relocates. Won't that current location become blight? How does the council plan to handle that?

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Plus Rite Aid will probably be vacant soon when CVS drives them out. Maybe we should be focussing on how to redo that parcel and make it part of a pedestrian friendly downtown.

One main point that ought to still really be emphasized regarding this CVS/Chase thing is
the traffic. Bad enough they're putting in suburban sprawl, but drive-through means an untenable increase in car traffic at an already disproportionately congested intersection.
How do they propose to address the vast increase in cars trying to turn left and right from both sides of that development? The developers should not be allowed to simply drop a traffic bomb on our town and then walk away with a pile of cash but no accountability.

A little heavy on the Rite Aid comment - all of a sudden Rite Aid is the good guy?

But you do bring up an interesting point, Marty. Get in front of those vacancies! Where was all this community input while Pellini's was just sitting there? You can't do nothing and then cry foul.

I noticed a comment above regarding the "old warehouse area" across the street and what a blight it was and why could not not be mixed use with shops/retail. Sound familiar? I think that was a plan that got shot down.

If it was Whole Foods moving there would we still have this discussion? Trader Joe's?
Amy's Kitchen Restaurant?

This is zoned correctly - it should not be a popularity or community vote. Our input needs to be at different levels. If you want this town to be absolutely no corporate entities - then change it - but you cannot pick and choose what business you like on a piecemeal basis.

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Posted in reply to the post by genihouston:

A little heavy on the Rite Aid comment - all of a sudden Rite Aid is the good guy?

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I wasn't saying Rite Aid was the good guy. I was replying to the post about vacancies. It is not likely our small town can support them both and CVS has a track record of driving out competitors. It just seems like the writing on the wall, that this will drive Rite Aid out and then we have another big vacant space in the middle of downtown. I, by the way, supported the North East plan - because it was a "Plan" that could foresee such things. Too many people thought that it was a development proposal which it was not - only a plan for the area.

One thing that should probably be added to the mix is lack of good in-store awareness at CVS. Several months ago, employees began finding empty bottles of wine and beer in their public restroom. It seems that a customer or customers took bottles into the bathroom, chugged the contents and then slipped out. On at least one occasion, a single individual drank two 750ml bottles of wine and a large bottle of beer in just a few minutes. This happened early in the morning, indicating serious alcohol problems. I spoke with one of the managers about this and that manager confirmed the details and said they'd had several people mention it to them. This situation was bad enough at the current location but at such as a busy intersection as is currently proposed could result in tragedy. At a minimum, members of the city council should be made aware of this situation.

For me, the issue isn't a matter of eliminating corporations entirely. The issue is what companies represent and are selling. I believe Whole Foods, Trader Joe's & Amy's are far better options for people and the planet because these companies make every effort to do business as non-toxically as possible. Not perfect, perhaps, but a lot better than the generic run of the mill CVS which sells a staggering amount of products from China. A friend of mine recently returned from a trip to China and told me that the pollution over there is terrible. We are in the mess that we are in this country and this world because so much of business is done without a sense of morality. CVS can put in solar panels, plant native species, etc. but the "outside" will not change the "inside." They will still sell a lot of junk which will make it's way into the landfill. They will still impact the traffic situation dramatically. They will still continue to do business as they always have.

This issue is a matter of morality and what we stand for as a community.

Sorry Marty! It did read like the entire response was to you - only first part and your good point! And I know you supported the Northeast project!

I was actually responding to several emails all at once.

And Dominus had good points above, too, however I throughly disagree with (Whole Foods, Trader Joe's & Amy's are far better options for people and the planet) . That's why I chose those three, very different, but that is a thread of a different color! :wink:

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Posted in reply to the post by genihouston:

A little heavy on the Rite Aid comment - all of a sudden Rite Aid is the good guy?

But you do bring up an interesting point, Marty. Get in front of those vacancies! Where was all this community input while Pellini's was just sitting there? You can't do nothing and then cry foul.

I noticed a comment above regarding the "old warehouse area" across the street and what a blight it was and why could not not be mixed use with shops/retail. Sound familiar? I think that was a plan that got shot down.

If it was Whole Foods moving there would we still have this discussion? Trader Joe's?
Amy's Kitchen Restaurant?

This is zoned correctly - it should not be a popularity or community vote. Our input needs to be at different levels. If you want this town to be absolutely no corporate entities - then change it - but you cannot pick and choose what business you like on a piecemeal basis.

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I find this discussion a bit ironic. Some of the very same people opposed to this project (not you Marty) were opposed to the Northeast Area Plan that would have made this a much more Sebastopol friendly project. The plan included incentives for green building, affordable housing, human scale architecture, public uses, etc. Buildings were to be located near the street and parking could have been put in structures away from high profile corners. The opposition, along with the council majority, thought that no plan meant no new development. They convinced many voters that a lack of a plan would keep things the way they are. Welcome to the real world.

So what happened tonight???? I wasn't able to be there. Details please? Will there be another meeting??

I was at the meeting & spoke, tho I didn't stay after the public comments. I believe Ms Mayor was there in the back. A member of the Planning Commission told me that for some reason their critical comments were not included in the minutes that went to City Council. The implication was that this may have resulted in the City Council approving the project.

All of the approx 15 or so people who spoke were opposed to either the "shopping center" design, Chase and CVS residing on this prominent site, or design details... with the exception of a local business owner who lives in Forestville and who liked the project.

I thought the most important comments were: desire for mixed use pedestrian oriented development, the green sustainable desire to save and rehab the Pellini building, design comments about the buildings & parking, and legal questions about the negative declaration and environmental issues.

People I spoke to said the Design Review could send it back to the Planning Commission, I think essentially rejecting it, and that the City Council could rescind their approval.

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Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:

So what happened tonight???? I wasn't able to be there. Details please? Will there be another meeting??

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Thanks Tommy! Anyone stay to the end? how did it end? Was the public comment period continued? Was it sent back to Planning Commission? What was the final result?

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Posted in reply to the post by tommy:

I was at the meeting & spoke, tho I didn't stay after the public comments. I believe Ms Mayor was there in the back. A member of the Planning Commission told me that for some reason their critical comments were not included in the minutes that went to City Council. The implication was that this may have resulted in the City Council approving the project.

All of the approx 15 or so people who spoke were opposed to either the "shopping center" design, Chase and CVS residing on this prominent site, or design details... with the exception of a local business owner who lives in Forestville and who liked the project.

I thought the most important comments were: desire for mixed use pedestrian oriented development, the green sustainable desire to save and rehab the Pellini building, design comments about the buildings & parking, and legal questions about the negative declaration and environmental issues.

People I spoke to said the Design Review could send it back to the Planning Commission, I think essentially rejecting it, and that the City Council could rescind their approval.

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Posted in reply to the post by oliviathunderkitty:

One thing that should probably be added to the mix is lack of good in-store awareness at CVS. Several months ago, employees began finding empty bottles of wine and beer in their public restroom. It seems that a customer or customers took bottles into the bathroom, chugged the contents and then slipped out. On at least one occasion, a single individual drank two 750ml bottles of wine and a large bottle of beer in just a few minutes. This happened early in the morning, indicating serious alcohol problems. I spoke with one of the managers about this and that manager confirmed the details and said they'd had several people mention it to them. This situation was bad enough at the current location but at such as a busy intersection as is currently proposed could result in tragedy. At a minimum, members of the city council should be made aware of this situation.

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Yikes! and that person actually "walked" out??

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Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:

Yikes! and that person actually "walked" out??

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Yes, that person actually walked out, got into a car and drove away. Frightening.

Thanks to all who attended the design review meeting and spoke their concerns about the CVS project. I think the community's comments were heard and, judging by the comments of the committee, taken seriously. I stayed until the end and heard all of the committee members comments. Many of them echoed our concerns and I think gave the applicant the impression that they were far from having an acceptable solution.

It is important that we all attend these meetings and stay to hear what our representatives have to say. It's one thing to speak and hear community input, but if we don't stay, we don't know if we are heard. Leaving the meeting takes the heat off and makes the board members think we just came to vent. If we wont invest the same amount of time as the board members, our level conviction will be questioned.

It's important to understand that this was a "Preliminary Review", not a response to a formal application or proposal. Since this was a preliminary review, no action was taken or decisions made by the committee. My understanding is that the applicant will take the input from the meeting and revise their plans to respond to the comments or not, depending on how much weight they place on each suggestion or comment. They will then make a formal application. That means that this process is really just beginning. We need to continue to voice our concerns and make sure the next version responds to our input, especially once a formal application is made. That's when it will really count.

Since this project conforms to our lame zoning and our General Plan is fairly vague, my opinion is that design review is our best opportunity to demand an outstanding project. The challenge is that our design review committee typically deals with fairly minor issues on smaller projects and is not used to having to comment on larger issues like urban design and is not accustomed to wielding significant power. We need to continue to support and encourage their efforts in a positive way and let them know that we support their desire for a truly outstanding project on this property and nothing short of outstanding will do. Like I said when I spoke, if this project doesn't make our downtown significantly better, it isn't good enough.

Thanks for your report! Did they say when they will be back again? Did you get a sense of what things in particular they were wanting improvement on?

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

Thanks to all who attended the design review meeting and spoke their concerns about the CVS project. I think the community's comments were heard and, judging by the comments of the committee, taken seriously. I stayed until the end and heard all of the committee members comments. Many of them echoed our concerns and I think gave the applicant the impression that they were far from having an acceptable solution.

It is important that we all attend these meetings and stay to hear what our representatives have to say. It's one thing to speak and hear community input, but if we don't stay, we don't know if we are heard. Leaving the meeting takes the heat off and makes the board members think we just came to vent. If we wont invest the same amount of time as the board members, our level conviction will be questioned.

It's important to understand that this was a "Preliminary Review", not a response to a formal application or proposal. Since this was a preliminary review, no action was taken or decisions made by the committee. My understanding is that the applicant will take the input from the meeting and revise their plans to respond to the comments or not, depending on how much weight they place on each suggestion or comment. They will then make a formal application. That means that this process is really just beginning. We need to continue to voice our concerns and make sure the next version responds to our input, especially once a formal application is made. That's when it will really count.

Since this project conforms to our lame zoning and our General Plan is fairly vague, my opinion is that design review is our best opportunity to demand an outstanding project. The challenge is that our design review committee typically deals with fairly minor issues on smaller projects and is not used to having to comment on larger issues like urban design and is not accustomed to wielding significant power. We need to continue to support and encourage their efforts in a positive way and let them know that we support their desire for a truly outstanding project on this property and nothing short of outstanding will do. Like I said when I spoke, if this project doesn't make our downtown significantly better, it isn't good enough.

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Posted in reply to the post by Pterosapiens:

Most likely this was one or two people too young to buy booze legally, or someone in need but unable to afford it going in, grabbing a bottle or two and then going into the bathroom and transferring the contents into one or two of those metal or plastic water bottles made for hiking or biking - I doubt anything was drunk on the premises, way too risky.

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Actually, this is not the case at all. The alcohol was indeed consumed on the premises by someone well over the age of 21 with a very serious alcohol problem. I know one of the individuals who did this and have verified the accuracy of the accusations. I wouldn't divulge their personal information, of course, and I don't know how many others may have done something similar. But I do know about this one, know that it was on more than one occasion, know that the alcohol was consumed on premise and know that the individual drove away after consuming it. This took place in August, 2010, and possibly in September, as well.

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Posted in reply to the post by Pterosapiens:

I doubt anything was drunk on the premises, way too risky.

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Don't bet on it! When I used to work in mental health and took a mental health client from the residential facility to the dentist's office, the mouthwash bottles in the dentist's bathroom turned up empty real quick. My client was drinking all the mouthwash for the alcohol in it. We had to get special "mouth rinse" without alcohol for the residential facility. And it's not just mentally ill people who do this.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Don't bet on it! When I used to work in mental health and took a mental health client from the residential facility to the dentists's office, the mouthwash bottles in the dentist's bathroom turned up empty real quick. My client was drinking all the mouthwash for the alcohol in it. We had to get special "mouth rinse" without alcohol for the residential facility. And it's not just mentally ill people who do this.

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Eeeeeeeew!

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/images/logo2.gif
Sebastopol group files suit demanding traffic study for new pharmacy
BY BOB NORBERG
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
Published: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 at 5:41 p.m.


A Sebastopol group has filed a lawsuit challenging the City Council action that lets a CVS Pharmacy proposal proceed without a full environmental impact report.

The suit alleges that the council did not take into consideration traffic that would be generated by a pharmacy and bank, both with drive-through service, and by two other planned projects.

“They try to do these things like islands,” said Helen Shane of The Committee for Small Town Sebastopol. “In a town of 7,800 population, it doesn’t work.”

The suit asks that the City Council’s decision be nullified and the proposal be sent back to the city’s Planning Commission until a full environmental impact report is done.

The suit was filed Monday in Sonoma County Superior Court.

Armstrong Development Properties Inc. of Sacramento proposes building a 14,576-square-foot CVS Pharmacy and a 4,327-square-foot Chase Bank branch at the site of the vacant Pellini Chevrolet dealership.

It would be a $10 million project on 2.4 acres in one of Sebastopol’s most prominent locations and at one of Sebastopol’s busiest intersections.

The existing CVS Pharmacy in the Redwood Market would move to the new location. It would be a smaller store than the existing pharmacy, but have a drive-through window.

The project generated controversy when it was heard by the Planning Commission, which on June 14 decided there should be a full impact report.

After a four-hour public hearing on July 5, the City Council sided with the developer and voted 4-1 to allow the project to proceed without a full environmental impact report. Councilwoman Sarah Gurney opposed the action.

The suit contends that the pharmacy and bank branch will generate additional traffic which needs to be studied in detail.

In addition, the suit contends that traffic study should include an analysis of traffic associated with two projects that are still in the proposal stage.

Those are the Barlow Project, which calls for a farmers market, artist studios and children’s playground, and the proposed Laguna Vista housing project, which calls for a 145 housing units.

The greenhouse gas emissions from all that traffic would also worsen climate change and may cause flooding and environmental damage, the suit contends.

City Attorney Larry McLaughlin defended the City Council action.

“From staff’s point of view, we don’t agree, we do believe that proper analysis was done,” McLaughlin said.

A spokesman for Armstrong Development Properties was not available Tuesday.

Does anyone know when this is coming back to Design Review?

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Who are we Sebastopol?

by Magick Altman

Published: Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:52 PM PDT
Are we a community that just gives in when the corporate world puts the screws on? Will we still pretend to feel good about ourselves bicycling to work in the traffic jam caused by drive-thru windows at CVS and Chase as they suck the money out of our town?

Is the General Plan just a bundle of ‘aspirations’ or the constitution of a small town that has laid down policies and goals to maintain our integrity?

Towns across the country are fighting CVS: check out www.newrules.org. We need to lead the way by fulfilling our destiny as a model of a locally owned, sustainable economy.

Every day so many people come to me and say what can we do about CVS? People sense the domino affect about to happen. We stopped the last attempts to remake this town in the Northeast area, NEAP, by upholding our General Plan, (GP), which is our constitution. The GP is a carefully crafted legal document that took years to make by citizens with wisdom and foresight.

During hearings on the NEAP a split surfaced in our community that was used by CVS to divide and conquer.

But I don’t think we are really so far apart in what we want.

Actually, most people that opposed NEAP would agree that density has its advantages when it creates space for local, sustainable businesses and truly affordable housing.

But growth in and of itself is no longer a good thing. Water supply and level of service costs can no longer be numbers that are fudged by paid consultants.

We need to get down to reality here. We are meant to be a model not a smug little town that praises itself for recycling and solar that is placed on corporate generic outlets that pay lousy wages here and whose products are made by children in Southeast Asia.

While the Pellinis have been stalwarts of our town it is truly sad that they turned away two highly respected and innovative local businesses as soon as they had a “Big Fish” on the line. Ned Kahn, a world-renowned artist, and The Maker’s Fair, owned by O’Reilly, would’ve been ideal.

So do we actually want to support local flavor with a global vision or is that just a branding that we paid $50,000 for to fool ourselves into thinking we care?

It is time for the Council to revisit this project and galvanize all the experience of city staff to find a way to legally defeat this proposal.

Send it back to the courageous Planning Commission and work as a team to write the findings. We already have Scott Stegeman’s excellent document, Helen Shane and Paul-Andre Schabracq’s clear examination of accumulated affects, Holly Hansen’s testimony about the completely inappropriate nature of this proposal and the voices of so many others.

Our council needs to stop fearing lawsuits. Fear is not a place to act from; it is where you go to give up.

And let’s brainstorm and use all the tools in our toolbox. How about a boycott: “If They Build It We Won’t Come”? The SESAW committee already had over 600 signatures against it, lets make it 6,000 including all of West county’s shoppers. CVS will cut their losses and go take its predator practices somewhere else.

And when they do, we can tell that town how to get rid of them, until town-by-town we say no to everything that is wrong with this world today.

And then when we shop in our farmer’s markets and see young people staying in our community we can feel we’ve done the right thing. We can offer cheap housing and financial support for incubator businesses and have rooftop gardens watered with greywater systems.

We can daylight creeks, practice permaculture, and bring in classrooms of students to learn the methodology to take this model into the world.

Miracles are made with the courage to simply do what’s right when what’s wrong is staring you in the face.

Lets come together and make beauty, grow great food, dance to homegrown music and make our words mean what they say.

Magick is a Sebastopol resident and can be reached at [email protected] for additional information.

Enliven downtown, attract eco/edu tourists and empower youth with useful skills for the future:

Maybe we should provide scientists, engineers, tech leaders and art/science innovators funding incentives for running for political office. Phil Harriman, Robert Porter, Ned Kahn, Dale Dougherty, Bill Seidel, Dan Smith and many more local residents may have more gumption, practical ideas and solutions for local and regional issues than many of our elected officials. Certainly Sonoma County fares better than most when it comes to practical innovations; from the water agency’s solar advocacy to the county supervisors daring dive into chicken sh__ power. At least they are trying! Too bad we can’t find a way to purchase the Pellini property and put it into the hands of the innovators mentioned above. A hands-on Insitu U. – A training and demonstration Exploratorium Maker Facility with dormitories and learning environment for youth from our own region and beyond. The ongoing projects could be on display for all to see right on the main corner and entrance to Sebastopol. A fun place to play, make and show! With a well thought out financial plan, it might be possible to issue a corporate or even municipal bond to purchase and build a facility that attracts visitors from outside the region. If a stable income stream can be developed over time it can then support a bond. Could an ‘Exploratorium North’ with a ‘Maker Place’ attract a growing revenue stream and enliven our economy?
Daniel Osmer, Realtor

It is so frustrating to continually read and hear the "fact" spouted when they have no bearing on the truth. Go ahead, give you opinion, but don't lie or exaggerate to get your point accross.

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Posted in reply to the post by Magick:

While the Pellinis have been stalwarts of our town it is truly sad that they turned away two highly respected and innovative local businesses as soon as they had a “Big Fish” on the line. Ned Kahn, a world-renowned artist, and The Maker’s Fair, owned by O’Reilly, would’ve been ideal.

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Read the current edition of the Sonoma West Times & News to get the real truth, directly from the Pellinis'.
Anyone could have just asked them.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Magick:

So do we actually want to support local flavor with a global vision or is that just a branding that we paid $50,000 for to fool ourselves into thinking we care?

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The City of Sebastopol and certainly not the quoter is not pay for $50,000 for a branding program. The Sebastopol Area Chamber of Commerce, a membership organization supporting Commerce contracted the program for $48,000 for which the City contributed $10,000.

An email has been circulating that Marshalls is now coming to town to replace CVS in the Redwood Market. Heck, it may be true, but I also heard Olivers and Ross are coming.
What's a small town girl like me to believe?

Activism is powerful - it is useful - it is necessary - but not when you distort the truth to get there.

I just want to clarify that in the article I did not state what kind of interest was shown by Ned Kahn and O'Reilly as you can see by the quote you mentioned. Yes, I am aware that the Chamber paid the larger portion of the branding costs and I should've been more clear about that. There was no intention to deceive and your clarification is correct.
I stand by my article and the principles that were stated therein. I support respectful dialogue.

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Posted in reply to the post by genihouston:

[
It is so frustrating to continually read and hear the "fact" spouted when they have no bearing on the truth. Go ahead, give you opinion, but don't lie or exaggerate to get your point accross.

Quoted: While the Pellinis have been stalwarts of our town it is truly sad that they turned away two highly respected and innovative local businesses as soon as they had a “Big Fish” on the line. Ned Kahn, a world-renowned artist, and The Maker’s Fair, owned by O’Reilly, would’ve been ideal.

Read the current edition of the Sonoma West Times & News to get the real truth, directly from the Pellinis'.
Anyone could have just asked them.

Quoted: So do we actually want to support local flavor with a global vision or is that just a branding that we paid $50,000 for to fool ourselves into thinking we care?

The City of Sebastopol and certainly not the quoter is not pay for $50,000 for a branding program. The Sebastopol Area Chamber of Commerce, a membership organization supporting Commerce contracted the program for $48,000 for which the City contributed $10,000.

An email has been circulating that Marshalls is now coming to town to replace CVS in the Redwood Market. Heck, it may be true, but I also heard Olivers and Ross are coming.
What's a small town girl like me to believe?

Activism is powerful - it is useful - it is necessary - but not when you distort the truth to get there.

---

I for one like the idea of a Marshall's or Ross coming to town. Maybe they are chain stores, but wouldn't it be nice to have some affordable clothing for sale here in town without having to drive around to get it? And underwear!

Quote:

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An email has been circulating that Marshalls is now coming to town to replace CVS in the Redwood Market. Heck, it may be true, but I also heard Olivers and Ross are coming.
What's a small town girl like me to believe?

Activism is powerful - it is useful - it is necessary - but not when you distort the truth to get there.

---

We may think that clothes are less expensive until you look at the hidden costs

1) Cheap labor in poor countries means 12 -16 hour days, in unhealthy factories often including child labor where any attempt to organize is met by firings and often blacklisting.

2) Corporations extracting nature's riches and producing materials choose countries with lax environmental laws that perpetuate pollution and degradation of nature and the people in these exploited areas do not see any financial returns, only the corporations.

3) The use of fossil fuels to transport the products all the way across the world is wasteful, polluting and unsustainable.
There are people right here making clothing, some from recycled materials, who are not transporting long distances, exploiting labor or the environment.

Not to mention the exploitation of the labor force in the stores and the lack of a service because there are so few employees all they have time for is restocking and cleaning.

So what is the the real cost in human lives and our beautiful world?
Think about it...Can we pretend any longer not to know?

I know that people reading this are not intentionally being apart of this tragedy I know you are at heart good people please just think about.

We need to look at our values and the REAL cost of cheap products.

If you have any doubts about this just check the labels and research the companies and note where they are made. Liz Claiborne is a classic example.

Here is a summary of the conditions of a company that manufactures for Liz Claiborne
Doall Factory Conditions (Summary) Korean owned company in El Salvador....

• Systematic and widespread violation of basic human and worker rights.
• 13-to-15-hour workshifts; 85-to-92-hour work weeks.
• Forced Overtime--often from 6:45 a.m. to 10:30 p.m.--mandatory all-night shifts; working seven days a week. Typically, one worker had just three days off in a nine-month period. Workers complain that their feet swell up due to the excessively long hours--most take a "No Doze" stimulant to stay awake.
• 60-cent-an-hour wages: The 60-cent-an-hour wage is well below subsistence levels, meeting only 51 percent of the basic basket of goods necessary to survive in relative poverty, and only 27 percent of what it would cost to live poorly, but with a modicum of decency (though, of course, without luxuries or savings.)
• Pregnancy Tests--New workers are tested and fired if they are pregnant.
• Bathroom visits are strictly monitored, and limited to two uses per day.
• No sick days are given, even to a mother whose child is seriously ill. Permission to use the Social Security health clinic is almost never granted.
• High production goals, which are arbitrarily raised; pressure to meet those goals. Supervisors yell and curse at the workers.
• Fear and intimidation--At the first sign of a grievance the leaders are fired. At the mere hint of a union, those suspected are immediately, and illegally, fired.
• Eighteen workers were fired on August 5 for daring to protest being forced to work overtime on a major national holiday--also, Doall suspected these workers might attempt to organize a union.
• At least five organizing drives at Doall factories have been crushed with illegal firings.
• No worker had heard of the Liz Claiborne Code of Conduct--and certainly no explanation was ever given to the workers regarding their basic rights that the code is supposed to guarantee. Visits by North American company representatives are staged events. The factory is cleaned ahead of time. Workers are pre-chosen by Doall managers to speak with the North Americans. No attempt has ever been made to meet with workers in a safe location, where they would be free to speak.
• Enormous Exploitation--The young Salvadoran women at Doall are paid just 84 cents for every $194 Liz Claiborne jacket they sew! The sewers wages equal just 4/10ths of 1 percent of the sales price of the Liz Claiborne jacket.
• Systematic and widespread violation of basic human and worker rights.
• 13-to-15-hour workshifts; 85-to-92-hour work weeks.
• Forced Overtime--often from 6:45 a.m. to 10:30 p.m.--mandatory all-night shifts; working seven days a week. Typically, one worker had just three days off in a nine-month period. Workers complain that their feet swell up due to the excessively long hours--most take a "No Doze" stimulant to stay awake.
• 60-cent-an-hour wages: The 60-cent-an-hour wage is well below subsistence levels, meeting only 51 percent of the basic basket of goods necessary to survive in relative poverty, and only 27 percent of what it would cost to live poorly, but with a modicum of decency (though, of course, without luxuries or savings.)
• Pregnancy Tests--New workers are tested and fired if they are pregnant.
• Bathroom visits are strictly monitored, and limited to two uses per day.
• No sick days are given, even to a mother whose child is seriously ill. Permission to use the Social Security health clinic is almost never granted.
• High production goals, which are arbitrarily raised; pressure to meet those goals. Supervisors yell and curse at the workers.
• Fear and intimidation--At the first sign of a grievance the leaders are fired. At the mere hint of a union, those suspected are immediately, and illegally, fired.
• Eighteen workers were fired on August 5 for daring to protest being forced to work overtime on a major national holiday--also, Doall suspected these workers might attempt to organize a union.
• At least five organizing drives at Doall factories have been crushed with illegal firings.
• No worker had heard of the Liz Claiborne Code of Conduct--and certainly no explanation was ever given to the workers regarding their basic rights that the code is supposed to guarantee. Visits by North American company representatives are staged events. The factory is cleaned ahead of time. Workers are pre-chosen by Doall managers to speak with the North Americans. No attempt has ever been made to meet with workers in a safe location, where they would be free to speak.
• Enormous Exploitation--The young Salvadoran women at Doall are paid just 84 cents for every $194 Liz Claiborne jacket they sew! The sewers wages equal just 4/10ths of 1 percent of the sales price of the Liz Claiborne jacket.
• No visitors are allowed at the Doall factories, which operate behind locked metal gates, barbed wire and heavily armed guards.

In August and September 1998, the National Labor Committee arranged several meetings in safe locations with Doall workers, who provided the following information on factory conditions. The workers were very afraid, explaining they could be fired for speaking to us. The National Labor Committee has been tracking conditions at Doall since 1995, at which point we informed Liz Claiborne of the numerous serious violations. The company took no real action.

Yours in truth, Magick

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Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:

I for one like the idea of a Marshall's or Ross coming to town. Maybe they are chain stores, but wouldn't it be nice to have some affordable clothing for sale here in town without having to drive around to get it? And underwear!

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Even if everything you say is the gospel truth your still missing the point. Its not up to the city council and the planning commission to make consumer decisions for everyone. If people agree that the store is a bad actor then they won't shop there and the business will fail. Prohibition doesn't work and its an affront to people who are perfectly capable of making their own choices.

Mark

I was not referring to the decision making process of Sebastopol when I was speaking of the exploitative practices of the corporate world. But on that note, Sonoma is considering a big box ban and Community Impact Reports are also an tool in the local toolbox. You might want to research these options. The Living Wage Coalition can be of help.
I was asking us to consider our relationship to "cheap imports" of free but not fair trade. I do advocate boycotts as effective methods to choose, as a community and a people, what kind of world we want to sustain.
Now, will you consider the information I related about the sad reality of cheap merchandise?
Saw a great bumper sticker today, 'Non-judgment day draws near', may we learn compassionate action and find common ground, I am willing, and learning and growing in this direction...can we help each other?

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Posted in reply to the post by banjoguy:

Even if everything you say is the gospel truth your still missing the point. Its not up to the city council and the planning commission to make consumer decisions for everyone. If people agree that the store is a bad actor then they won't shop there and the business will fail. Prohibition doesn't work and its an affront to people who are perfectly capable of making their own choices.

Mark

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This sure does sound awful! What country is this in?

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Magick:

We need to look at our values and the REAL cost of cheap products.
If you have any doubts about this just check the labels and research the companies and note where they are made.
Liz Claiborne is a classic example.
Here is a summary of the conditions of a company that manufactures for Liz Claiborne
Doall Factory Conditions (Summary) Korean owned company in El Salvador....

Systematic and widespread violation of basic human and worker rights.
13-to-15-hour workshifts; 85-to-92-hour work weeks.
...

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The title of this thread is "CVS/Chase development proposal". While the issues of working conditions in other countries, the power of large corporations, people drinking in store bathrooms, what chain store(s) may be coming to our town, etc. are all important and deserve to be discussed, it looks like we may have taken our eye off of the ball. While the debate continues over issues that have very little, if any, tangible impact on the future of this project, the developers proceed forward with their plans to break ground.

It would seem as if most people would generally fall into one of five categories regarding the proposed CVS/Chase development:

1.) Ardent supporter- there are more than you may think, and they can be formidable, especially with friends in high places.

2.) Ardent opponent to any development in Sebastopol- what are you doing to actively stop the progress of this proposal?
Complaining on this forum is of little impact. While it may feel righteous, it won't stop the bulldozers. Are you supporting
($) the lawsuit against the City Council approval of the project that seeks to have an EIR completed for the project?

3.) Ardent opponent to this specific development in Sebastopol- what are you doing to actively stop the progress of this
proposal and/or bring a realistic, economically-viable alternative up for consideration? Again, complaining here is of little
impact- watch out for the bulldozers. Are you supporting ($) the lawsuit against the City Council?

4.) Cautiously resigned to the high likelihood that this project will get built- what are you doing to work towards maximizing
it's potential aesthetically, functionally and environmentally? At least when it is built, some influence of the community
may be incorporated into it.

5.) Apathetic- otherwise occupied, "whatever...."

None of these positions is "better" or "more correct" than any of the others; we are all different. We must all ask ourselves what we are doing to actively promote our beliefs in a manner that has a tangible impact on this project. I do not believe that either the Sebastopol City Council or Armstrong Development Properties, Inc. will be dissuaded from moving forward as a result of discussions regarding the evils of cheap underwear. They may actually appreciate that we, as a community, appear to be so distracted from their ongoing activities.

In my view, it comes down to taking one of four courses of action: Join the fight to stop it, join the fight to change it to a different/better project, join the fight to make it the best project that it can be, or sit back and watch the wrecking ball, either through apathy or support for the project...

perhaps writing about the evils of cheap underwear is option number 2. it is interesting to talk to the employees of cvs, who used to work for longs, about their experience of the change. you seem to have a clear understanding that option 2 is tilting at windmills, and option 3 is helpful for your prefered option 4.

i prefer option 2, perhaps because of my imby status, i prefer to bike to get cheap booze and depends for my dad. of course downtown isn't too far away, but the traffic! mostly i'm just trying to get to the other side of town!

the corporate bigbox reality of cvs is an issue here, even if civic planning is a poor tool for envisioning a sustainable world. when you trash allies? its back to hurting those you love the most...

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by downtown facing dog:

The title of this thread is "CVS/Chase development proposal". While the issues of working conditions in other countries, the power of large corporations, people drinking in store bathrooms, what chain store(s) may be coming to our town, etc. are all important and deserve to be discussed, it looks like we may have taken our eye off of the ball. While the debate continues over issues that have very little, if any, tangible impact on the future of this project, the developers proceed forward with their plans to break ground.

It would seem as if most people would generally fall into one of five categories regarding the proposed CVS/Chase development:

1.) Ardent supporter- there are more than you may think, and they can be formidable, especially with friends in high places.

2.) Ardent opponent to any development in Sebastopol- what are you doing to actively stop the progress of this proposal?
Complaining on this forum is of little impact. While it may feel righteous, it won't stop the bulldozers. Are you supporting
($) the lawsuit against the City Council approval of the project that seeks to have an EIR completed for the project?

3.) Ardent opponent to this specific development in Sebastopol- what are you doing to actively stop the progress of this
proposal and/or bring a realistic, economically-viable alternative up for consideration? Again, complaining here is of little
impact- watch out for the bulldozers. Are you supporting ($) the lawsuit against the City Council?

4.) Cautiously resigned to the high likelihood that this project will get built- what are you doing to work towards maximizing
it's potential aesthetically, functionally and environmentally? At least when it is built, some influence of the community
may be incorporated into it.

5.) Apathetic- otherwise occupied, "whatever...."

None of these positions is "better" or "more correct" than any of the others; we are all different. We must all ask ourselves what we are doing to actively promote our beliefs in a manner that has a tangible impact on this project. I do not believe that either the Sebastopol City Council or Armstrong Development Properties, Inc. will be dissuaded from moving forward as a result of discussions regarding the evils of cheap underwear. They may actually appreciate that we, as a community, appear to be so distracted from their ongoing activities.

In my view, it comes down to taking one of four courses of action: Join the fight to stop it, join the fight to change it to a different/better project, join the fight to make it the best project that it can be, or sit back and watch the wrecking ball, either through apathy or support for the project...

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Mark,
While "technically true", your point is naive, in my opinion.

Saying that "people are perfectly capable of making their own choices".. that "it's not up to the City and the planning commission to make consumer decisions for everyone" implies that there is no need for zoning or planning, just let the people decide by shopping or not shopping at a place. This would conceivably end up with a hodge-podge of drive thru fast food places at major intersections, X rated porn shops and marijuana dispensaries near schools, cheap soviet-style apartment buildings, etc. Unfortunately, one of the liabilities of capitalism is that those who want to make money will build the cheapest most profitable crap in the busiest places to maximize their return. Those buildings last for years and years, with people wondering "Why did the government ever allow this junk to be built here?"

Just look at Rohnert Park. The downtown is a Safeway and CVS store. Why do you think Sebastopol has much more appeal, and higher real estate values than Rohnert Park? Unfortunately, this CVS/Chase project would make this town more like Rohnert Park. Not to offend anyone who lives or likes Rohnert Park, however it's obvious it was developed for greed and not the benefit of those who live there.

The function, appeal and character of a town is from good design and planning. This CVS/Chase project nurtures the greed of the owners, developers, and corporate entities of Chase and CVS.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by banjoguy:

Even if everything you say is the gospel truth your still missing the point. Its not up to the city council and the planning commission to make consumer decisions for everyone. If people agree that the store is a bad actor then they won't shop there and the business will fail. Prohibition doesn't work and its an affront to people who are perfectly capable of making their own choices.

Mark

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A CVS move to the Pellini lot will ultimately contribute to a loss of pedestrian traffic and small town ambiance in downtown because "big boxes" have a way of destroying the landscape as well as smaller competition. More big boxes, more cars, more trash in our landfills - the end result is always a "no where place."

As a community, it's important that we come together in a singular vision rooted in morality so that we can create a downtown which will thrive in the next few years and not become a place that people pass through on their way to "somewhere better."

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow:

This sure does sound awful! What country is this in?

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You name it -- The "3rd world" is the plantation to exploit for cheap labor for the US (us) to take for granted.

The Design Review Board will hear the developer's new proposal on the CVS/Chase project again on Wednesday, 10-19-11 at 3:00 at the City Hall. Comments from the audience are welcome.

Thanks for the heads up Peter. Is there any advance preview of what they are proposing?

Here's the latest on the CVS:

The DRB meeting will be at Parkside School, 7450 Bodega Ave, on Wednessday, Oct 19th at 3:00. It's at a larger venue because more people are expected to come. The final review of the CVS/Chase project won't come up until after 3:30 because there are two smaller items before it on the agenda. You can download the latest CVS/Chase plans from the City's website.

Hope to see lots of people there. Peter

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Peter Schurch:

Here's the latest on the CVS:

The DRB meeting will be at Parkside School, 7450 Bodega Ave, on Wednessday, Oct 19th at 3:00. It's at a larger venue because more people are expected to come. The final review of the CVS/Chase project won't come up until after 3:30 because there are two smaller items before it on the agenda. You can download the latest CVS/Chase plans from the City's website.

Hope to see lots of people there. Peter

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Here's a link to the staff report: https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/sites/de...t_10.12.11.pdf

I didn't read the entire thing in detail but scanning, I did not see anything about green/energy saving requirements. What about solar and car charging stations and so forth. I hope these will be conditions applied to approval, if approval is to occur.

CVS and Chase are back at design review this Wednesday, October 19 at 3:00pm. You can read their letter, view plans and see the staff report supporting the project at the link below:

https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/page/special-projects

The overall project design and site plan has not changed in any significant way. They either did not hear the recommendations of the community and the review board, don't care, or think we have forgotten. It is still essentially a suburban pad development plunked into our downtown. They have added some Dwell magazine details, but I am so tired of box shaped buildings with unfinished metal, concrete board and horizontal wood passing as modern architecture I cancelled my subscription months ago. CVS still turns it's back on our most visible intersection and the two buildings are still separated by a parking lot that fronts one of our most important streets. If you agree that we have enough parking lots front-and- center in this town and that buildings downtown should have shop entries, storefront windows and address pedestrians more than cars, you need to show up Wednesday and say so. That's what our General Plan says. Please show up and let them know that any project in our town has to make Sebastopol undeniably better and that bad is not even close to good enough.

Email our design board members, give them your support and thanks for their efforts, let them know your feelings, and show up Wednesday. Our design review board members need our positive support and encouragement in order to make demands of these developers and their architect, so please help them out.

I would love to be part of a large turn-out of people representing the desire for downtown Sebastopol to grow with more local stores, not corporate chain retail.
To help get as many people there on Wed. as possible, can someone please post the address where the design review will be held. I don't know where to go, but I want to be there!
Thank you, thank you...