Letter on Efren Carrillo sent to Sonoma County Democratic Party

I gladly accept your wager, Tom!

We'll have to be careful, though. Sebastopol police have been well known for staking out the Hopmonk and pulling over customers who get into their cars immediately after leaving that establishment. It might help If we park a few blocks away.

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

p.s. To Edward Mendoza...if indeed there is a recall (which I question the merit of) I would wager you two rounds to one at Hopmonk that a large majority would support our Supervisor Carrillo IF he cleans up his issues.

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I appreciated the graceful tone and content of Tom Lynch's 4:35 response yesterday. I think for Edward and Tom to share a good, local beer at Hopmonks would be a good idea, which is what lawyers taking contrary sides of a case have been known to do. As Edward does, I also park a few blocks away and then walk around after being at Hopmonks. Both Tom and Edward are long-time committed Sonoma County activists, both of whom I respect, though I have disagreed with both of them at times. If I would be welcome at such a sharing, I would certainly come. I hope that we can find more ways to disagree without being disagreeable or making personal attacks and come back together, win or lose on this particular issue. I will do my best to do so. We will have a lot to deal with in the future. No need to burn bridges and hold grudges because we disagree on some matters.

I hope the Board of Supervisors itself, or some group, will help get us out of this mess, and find an agreeable due process to having someone represent the most progressive and environmentalist district in the wonderful Sonoma County that we all love.

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

I gladly accept your wager, Tom!

We'll have to be careful, though. Sebastopol police have been well known for staking out the Hopmonk and pulling over customers who get into their cars immediately after leaving that establishment. It might help If we park a few blocks away.

Best,

Edward

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

To Edward Mendoza...if indeed there is a recall (which I question the merit of) I would wager you two rounds to one at Hopmonk that a large majority would support our Supervisor Carrillo IF he cleans up his issues.

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If you guys are really making this bet, you'd better explicitly define what "a large majority" means.

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

FDR election 1932:
57.4%. This was a landslide.

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So, Edward, by your own definition Efren won the 2012 election by a landslide with 58.4% of the vote, with Ernie Carpenter getting 28.3%, and Veronica Jacobi 13.1%. Why don't we sit tight until the facts of this strange situation come out fully? I wouldn't want to be pre-judged, would you? If Efren needs to go, then I will support his resignation, as any reasonable person should. By the same token reasonable people should calmly await the release of all the pertinent facts of this matter. The truth will come out, then and only then, is the time for you to yell "Off with his head!" if you must. I and most people, I believe, that time has not yet come.

Dear Jon Box,
“The truth will come out,” you say, so we should just "sit tight" for the legal system without also using the court of public opinion. I doubt that we will ever know the full truth, since Efren Carrillo's handlers now have even more than a month to be buying people off with their big bucks. It has not always been the case that "the truth will come out" in my nearly 70 years on this planet. You have much more faith in the legal system than I do to bring justice. I have more trust in mass movements, such as the civil rights, suffragettes that won the right for women to vote, the peace movement that ended the American War on Vietnam, those who ran Nixon out of office and those of us demanding that the 5 District have a Supervisor, sooner rather than later.

However, when the following things happen:

+ Armed thugs like George Zimmerman who kill unarmed black teenagers like Traython Martin, thus “getting away with murder,” as one juror admitted after the verdict, are locked up;

+ The first of the millionaire banksters are thrown in jail for crashing the U.S. economy, while benefiting themselves;

+ Texas executes a murderous corporation (now that the Supreme Court has decided that corporations are people);

Then I may gladly wait patiently, calmly for the many months without 5^th District representation that it might take, well into 2014, a court to decide about the facts of what happened when the police were called twice around at 3:30 a.m. by a scared young woman and they found Efren Carrillo “with his pants down" lurking around her house. This is not the first, or even second time, that Carrillo has been involved in such a scandal. Meanwhile we have no representation. Remember that old American Revolutionary slogan, "No taxation without representation?" Maybe we should stop paying our taxes until we get a 5th District representative. :) Then the courts would promptly jump on us.

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

Why don't we sit tight until the facts of this strange situation come out fully? ... The truth will come out..

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I find it fascinating that many of the same people who over the years have posted their distrust of the police and the Press Democrat are calling for Efren's head because of what the police said as reported by the Press Democrat.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

... when the police were called twice around at 3:30 a.m. by a scared young woman and they found Efren Carrillo “with his pants down" lurking around her house. ...

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Thank you Edward, Shepherd, and All for your passionate concern for the future of Sonoma County...I disagree with some on the future path ahead; but respect your opinions and contributions. Always liked the toast, "Here's to you and here's to me and if perchance we disagree, then here's to you and here's to me" :toast:

Shepherd, Edward, Barry, John Box and whoever would care to join us, I would love to have the honor of sitting down at Hopmonk in the spirit of fellowship and concern for the future, and "discuss" the future. The first rounds on me :0) .

I would share a favorite scene from a favorite movie...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=4ylZzL__u1k

Favorite quote "Every little act of kindness is the hope of the world."
Doctor in "The Ninth Configuration"

How's next week after 5:00pm @ Hopmonk look for y'all??

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

I appreciated the graceful tone and content of Tom Lynch's 4:35 response yesterday. I think for Edward and Tom to share a good, local beer at Hopmonks would be a good idea, which is what lawyers taking contrary sides of a case have been known to do. As Edward does, I also park a few blocks away and then walk around after being at Hopmonks. Both Tom and Edward are long-time committed Sonoma County activists, both of whom I respect, though I have disagreed with both of them at times. If I would be welcome at such a sharing, I would certainly come. I hope that we can find more ways to disagree without being disagreeable or making personal attacks and come back together, win or lose on this particular issue. I will do my best to do so. We will have a lot to deal with in the future. No need to burn bridges and hold grudges because we disagree on some matters.

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

Shepherd, Edward, Barry, John Box and whoever would care to join us, I would love to have the honor of sitting down at Hopmonk in the spirit of fellowship and concern for the future, and "discuss" the future. The first rounds on me :0) . ...
How's next week after 5:00pm @ Hopmonk look for y'all??

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Works for me! In fact it's perfect, since I'll be there anyway for Tom Finch Group and Achilles Wheel show (a Barry's Pick! :thumbsup::thumbsup:) . I look forward to a friendly, open minded and interesting discussion, followed by some really great music! Thanks Tom!

Friday works for me.

Edward

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

How's next week after 5:00pm @ Hopmonk look for y'all??

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To all Posters:

Let us not forget that the Press Democrat endorsed Efren's campaigns both in 2008 and 2012.
Quite frankly, when this story first broke, I was surprised -- no, I take that back -- SHOCKED that
they even printed the story after giving him such strong back-to-back endorsements. I never thought I'd
live to see the day when they would do that.

And let us further not lose sight of the fact that the law-enforcement unions were among his biggest backers and
contributors to both of his campaigns.

Could it be that both this story -- and his conduct -- were simply too big to ignore?

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Dear Jon Box,
“The truth will come out,” you say, so we should just "sit tight" for the legal system without also using the court of public opinion. I doubt that we will ever know the full truth, since Efren Carrillo's handlers now have even more than a month to be buying people off with their big bucks. It has not always been the case that "the truth will come out" in my nearly 70 years on this planet. You have much more faith in the legal system than I do to bring justice. I have more trust in mass movements...

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Shepherd,

Please don't blithely toss out a few left wing platitudes which, although they may have some merit, seem trite and irrelevant in this context. The fact that the cops did show up, questioned Efren with full knowledge of who he is, decided his story didn't add up, then arrested him and put him in jail refutes what you just said. Then the PD screams out the story. Is this your dark establishment at work? If I were a cynic (well, more of a cynic), I might argue he landed in the slammer because he was a young Hispanic male. In fact, that is the reaction I would expect from the far left end of the spectrum. Instead, the far left calls for his resignation without giving Efren the benefit of the doubt until the full story comes out, or even constitutional due process. Very curious indeed. Not very progressive either.

There has been lots of wild speculation about what could have happened, silly conspiracy set-up scenarios involving cointel and perhaps even reptilian overlords and the Trilateral commission and yada yada yada ad nauseum ad infinitem. Here's one for your consideration: the second 911 call was the woman saying never mind its my neighbor, he identified himself, everything's OK and no need to send the police. Maybe this happened, maybe not, but if it did it will come out when the facts of this case are released. Efren may just be guilty of being an idiot while drinking. I have been guilty of that many times, especially when I was much younger.

You may not believe this but I am on the fence on this issue. If Efren was truly up to no good and the facts warrant his resignation or dismissal, I will support that. The fact that this had dragged on for a month and Efren wants 2 more weeks to get his shit together does not sit well with me. It troubles me that no information is forthcoming from the police, the DA, the woman involved, and especially Efren himself. It is starting to stink. I emailed Susan Upchurch that Efren has to be upfront about what went down and if he tries to bullshit the public it is not going to be pretty. We are going to get the truth, Shepherd, you watch. But until then you do nobody any good by pre-judging the situation.

As soon as a person argues with a universal term like "most people", I am suspicious of everything that follows.

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Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza:

...But most people want Carrillo to relinquish the charge of representing us because he is unfit to be supervisor...

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Yes, Efren did win the 2012 fifth-district-supervisor's race with 58.4 percent of the vote.

Conceded.

Which just goes to prove what I've been saying for years now: Once they're in the chair,
it practically takes a crowbar -- or a scandal -- to pry them out.

Jbox,

Let me say again that there is nothing silly about the suspicion of Cointelpro tactics within the political arena .. it's a program that is meant to take down politically active minorities, among others, .... this is one of the most effective tactics ( quoted from the following article ) ... "dissemination of false accusations ( which resulted in people being fired from jobs and tenured professors being sacked )" ....

https://rense.com/general28/thesonofcointelpro.htm

By all accounts Cointelpro is alive and well, in fact it's actually thriving given the loose constraints of the Patriot Act ... the recent spying scandal only supports this observation ...

This program is so ruthless in it's destructive objectives, and affecting so many Americans, that the matter is now under investigation by the United Nations Department of Torture ... honestly, knocking off someone like Efren would be a piece of cake ...

You see while we have been working hard to achieve brotherly love and wholesome non-toxic living, the military has been working hard to develop techniques to control human behavior ... this is a recent interview with Robert Duncan which might be enlightening ... it's long but fascinating, a real eye-opener for those concerned with government manipulation of politicians and political groups ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4yvuUZtxEE

I'm not saying that this is what happened to Efren, it's only one possibility out of many, but since we are locked in debate about this very bizarre political event, then it can't hurt to educate oneself about the very real threat of government manipulation and how that science has progressed ....

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

There has been lots of wild speculation about what could have happened, silly conspiracy set-up scenarios involving cointel and perhaps even reptilian overlords and the Trilateral commission and yada yada yada ad nauseum ad infinitum.

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The Sonoma County Democratic Party issued a statement today that included:

"If the details of this case have thus far been portrayed accurately, we believe that Supervisor Carrillo's behavior fails to meet the standard of conduct we expect from our elected officials, and he should resign."

I agree!

Here is the article in the Press Democrat:

https://pressdemocrat.com/article/20...lo-resignation

Press Release: Sonoma County Democratic Party Statement on Supervisor Efren Carrillo’s Arrest

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August 14, 2013

(Santa Rosa, CA) The Sonoma County Democratic Party (SCDP), at the August 13 meeting of its Central Committee, approved release of the following statement on the arrest of Sonoma County Supervisor Efren Carrillo:

As a Central Committee, we believe elected officials need to be held to a very high standard. For a Supervisor to be arrested is always a matter of serious concern. In this case, the circumstances described by the Santa Rosa Police Department that led them to recommend charging a sitting Supervisor with a felony raise grave concerns for the victim.

As Democrats, we believe that everyone should be able to feel safe in his or her community, and this especially extends to women feeling safe in their own homes. We can only imagine how afraid the woman who called 911 – not once, but twice – must have been. The person who was arrested as a result of those calls was Efren Carrillo. The Santa Rosa Police Department stated that they found him dressed only in his underwear and socks.

As Democrats, we also believe in the due process of law. Affording legal protection to the accused is at the heart of our democracy. Efren Carrillo is entitled to present his defense in a court of law. However, if the details of this case have thus far been portrayed accurately, we believe that Supervisor Carrillo’s behavior fails to meet the standard of conduct we expect from our elected officials, and he should resign. Like all citizens, Supervisor Carrillo has the right to publicly defend himself.

Getting a little defensive, Shepherd, when people disagree. I have to say that in our few meetings, you literally ran away from me when I disagreed with an emotional interpretation.
Perhaps a hard time with disagreement? Maybe not. We don't have all the facts.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

Your accusatory language like "lynch mob" is hardly "reasonable." There is no attempt to lynch anyone but to pressure an elected official to stop hiding and speak up. We voters deserve that. Efren Carrillo is obviously hiding something. I am angry and do not intend to "cool" until he resigns or is recalled. What is reasonable is that Mr. Carrillo speak to his constituency, rather than hide from us. He was caught with "his pants down," literally, as other politicians have been, figuratively. He is no longer believable. I do not intend to be silenced by your name-calling.

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I agree with this ... thanks for posting it ...

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Press Release: Sonoma County Democratic Party Statement on Supervisor Efren Carrillo’s Arrest

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Today's long Press Democrat article on the Dems decision last night includes the following paragraphs by the party chair Stephen Gale, which distinguish between "a legal standard" and a "standard of conduct," which is what I and others have been trying to argue. Taking "a position sooner rather than later," seems important, so that the 5th District will have a representative. It is also important "to stand with the woman involved," said Julie Combs, which we have been arguing. The vote was 17 to 3 to ask Carrillo to resign, which may represent the sentiments of a wide part of Sonoma County.

That article is worth reading, in spite of the fact that it appears in a newspaper owned partly by one of Efren Carrillo's main financial and political sponsors, the powerful Doug Bosco.
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“The threshold is really not a legal standard. It’s a standard of conduct,” Gale said. “We’re extremely concerned based on the information that’s available so far.”
Some central committee members said they felt the party needed to stake out a position sooner rather than later.
“I think it was important to stand with the woman involved and say that if this is accurate, he should resign,” said Julie Combs, a Santa Rosa councilwoman who serves as an alternate on the central committee and who participated in the meeting.

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Posted in reply to the post by arthunter:

I agree with this ... thanks for posting it ...

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Efren Carrillo's support among the Latino community also seems to be eroding, according to the following paragraphs in today's PD article.

"Before the meeting, the committee received about a dozen letters from individuals and organizations, Gale said. Most called for Carrillo’s immediate resignation, including one from the Sonoma County Latino Democratic Club, Gale said.
The Latino club is set to take up the issue itself next week, Gale said."

As Democrats, we also believe in the due process of law. Affording legal protection to the accused is at the heart of our democracy. Efren Carrillo is entitled to present his defense in a court of law. ... Like all citizens, Supervisor Carrillo has the right to publicly defend himself.

Amen! ... all other actions are an attack on our constitutional rights and democracy ...

Hi Ya'll

OK, Barry, Edward, Shephard, Jon, Sebastacat, et cal...Hopmonk Tavern, Friday Aug,23rd...First rounds on me :).

L

Tom Lynch
..looking forward to a collegial discussion:banana:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Works for me! In fact it's perfect, since I'll be there anyway for Tom Finch Group and Achilles Wheel show (a Barry's Pick! :thumbsup::thumbsup:) . I look forward to a friendly, open minded and interesting discussion, followed by some really great music! Thanks Tom!

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I appreciate the invitation of Tom and his framing of it as "a collegial discussion." I want to put the discussion of the Efren Carrillo situation behind us. So I have a request that we discuss other matters. For example, what we have in common, rather than what separates us, such as the love of Sonoma County. My proposal for what I would like to discuss, which I realize may not be of interest to all, would be the following. What other than Mr. Carrillo's unfortunate situation would the rest of you like to discuss? I particularly want to avoid name-calling and personal attacks, on Mr. Carrillo or anyone else.
Shepherd, also known as Santiago

Got manure?

There are few things more important to me than politics. Manure is one of them. So I would love to converse with Tom, “Manure Man, “ about that subject, Edward, Barry, sebastacat, Jon, Sandy, and others over beers at Hopmonk. This may not interest most of you, except the other farmers and gardeners. For my part, I would like to avoid talking about the Efren Carrillo situation, and thus get into a debate.

Tom has done us a favor by bringing the word “manure” into public discourse, as playwright Eve Ensler did with her play “Vagina Monologue.” We can now say both words in public, at least here in our beloved Sonoma County. I am actually more interested in gender politics and manure than I am in electoral politics. I consider Eve Ensler, whose work has been translated into many languages and performed in over 100 countries, to be the greatest living playwright in the English language.

During my last 20 years here at Kokopelli Farm I have used tons of the following manures: chicken, horse, llama, goat, sheep, and rabbit. My favorite is composted chicken manure, since it has the most nitrogen.

Horse manure is the most easily available for free, but it has the most seeds, which become weeds. So cow manure is better, since they have more stomachs and break the seeds down more. Digesting is good.

I use lots of manure, leaves, wood chips, grass clippings, and other organic mater to fertilize, mulch and compost my organic berries. So if you have too much of any of them, lets communicate and consider how to get what you have from your place to my place, which is slightly south of Sebastopol, up Bloomfield Rd., a few minutes from Hardcore Coffee.

I realize that this is more manure details than most of you want, but I want to make my priorities clear.

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

..looking forward to a collegial discussion:banana:

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Dear Shepherd,

Looking forward to a broad range of discussions...my particular interest is "intergenerational equity"...I'm looking for a better term on this one.

Basically we are in the midst of a debacle of epic proportions, whereas we have failed to set aside near enough to fund the retirement obligations of our public servants, and now as a consequence there are massive cuts in all the essential services government once was able to provide for generations.

The next generation are being burdened more and more to fund obligations the first wave of retiring baby boomers created without funding them, and the social consequences are disastrous. Of all 58 County's in the State, Sonoma County is perhaps in the worst condition.

L

Tom L

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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:

So I have a request that we discuss other matters. For example, what we have in common, rather than what separates us, such as the love of Sonoma County.

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“It's important to show restraint and not rush to judgment at such an early stage in the process,” said Eric Koenigshofer, a former county supervisor, central committee member and political adviser to Carrillo. “Nobody really knows what happened yet.”

Really, Barry. We can do better.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

The Sonoma County Democratic Party issued a statement today that included:

"If the details of this case have thus far been portrayed accurately, we believe that Supervisor Carrillo's behavior fails to meet the standard of conduct we expect from our elected officials, and he should resign."

I agree!

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I've not seen anyone argue against standing with the woman involved. I believe we all agree with that so you've no right to claim any ownership to that position.
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Regarding Combs' comment, "if this is accurate, he should resign,” Combs goes on to say "We can't go further than that right now because it's a big "if". Efren has the right to due process. He has a right to state his side", which is what I and others have been arguing.

You continue with "That article is worth reading, in spite of the fact that it appears in a newspaper owned partly by one of Efren Carrillo's main financial and political sponsors, the powerful Doug Bosco." So I infer that the PD is worth reading when you agree with it, otherwise it's a biased rag. If your positions truly had the moral high ground you seem to crave I don't believe you'd find it necessary to cherry pick partial statements made and present them out of context so that they appear to reinforce your position. You have made no bones about your opposition to Carrillo well before this situation occurred. We all agree that should these allegations prove true he should indeed resign or be booted out. What you've truly been arguing is that the man doesn't deserve his day in court, whether the standard is legal or ethical. Show a little more honesty please.

We can do better choosing our next supervisor, I hope.......,,

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Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:

Really, Barry. We can do better.

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Dear Foti,
Various people have called for a truce in all the name calling. I am sorry that you feel the need to continue doing so.

I make no claim of "ownership" to any position I take. I am glad that we agree on some things, even if we emphasize different aspects of this struggle.

I have never said that Efren Carrillo does not deserve his day in court; he does. Nor did I oppose Mr. Carrillo "well before this situation occurred." If you can prove that allegation, I would welcome it. I have said during these discussions that he is a talented and skilled person. He has made some mistakes, as I have.

All publications have their biases and strengths, including the PD and those for which I write. Agreeing with some of what they write and disagreeing with others does not mean that one is dishonest or lacks morality. Because people differ, that does not make them immoral or dishonest. I read the PD most days and recommend it to others. I do not consider it a "rag." It has a long and distinguished publishing record. I especially respect some of its reporters. I hope that we do not lose this and other print publications, as some predict.

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

Show a little more honesty please.

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As with Tom, I am interested in discussing "intergenerational equity." I recently saw an alarming statistic--the current debt of college students is greater in the U.S. than the entire credit card debt. Some college students graduate with a six figure debt, no job, and have to move back with their family. This is alarming and will have many long-term negative impacts on our country. Many of my college students get despondent when they consider the future that we are leaving them. Who benefits? Bankers and the financial institutions.

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Posted in reply to the post by riverosprey:

Looking forward to a broad range of discussions...my particular interest is "intergenerational equity"...I'm looking for a better term on this one.

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