Trying to get support for the Pellini's Corner Development for Monday's Council Meeting

Thank you for posting the links to the PDFs. I have hard copies and because time and my lack of intelligence I had a hard time finding the links to post :0)
Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by Orm Embar:

There is no need to provide an alternative if Armstrong Development Corp. is willing to work within the Design Review Board Guidelines. Here are some ideas that would help the proposal come into better alignment:

- move both buildings together to create a contiguous street-front presence
- remove the mid-block entrance/exit driveway on Petaluma Avenue
- install real windows in place of the display windows

And to win the hearts of Sebastopol residents: Remove the tall palm trees that frame the intersection of Hwy 12 and Petaluma Avenue.

Even better - take architectural inspiration from the 100+ year old buildings of the downtown core and blend their influence with the new starling building across the street. Why pull the architectural motifs from the mid-century Bank of the West drive thru, the Pellini building that people keep saying is an eyesore, and the Frizelle Enos warehouse when there are other more appealing architectural elements close by?

REMEMBER:
The Design Review Board is only about how projects "fit" the architectural and design character of Sebastopol, we cannot stray from the scope of this meeting if we want to make points that will be heard and respected. Going off about how evil Chase corporation is will not do any good.

Here is the architectural rendering of the project, complete with plant palette:
https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/sites/de...tober_2011.pdf

Here are the Guidelines for the Design Review Board:
https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/sites/de...lines_2010.pdf

Here are the Design Review Board findings for denial:
https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/sites/de...e_12.21.11.pdf

I've gotta run, but maybe someone else can post the Planning Commission's findings for denial.

Hopefully our Council has had the time to thoroughly review all of these things.

Warmly,
L

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I think many who are opposed and almost all in favor of this project are missing some important points.

For those who oppose the project because you don't like Chase and CVS, remember that government only has the authority given by the people, in this case as described in our municipal codes. Allowing a City to make up the rules as they go is a scary proposition.

For those who support the project because you think it is good for economy, think again. This project will be revenue neutral at best. The construction jobs will be filled from Sacramento, the employees already work in town, sales tax revenue will be flat since Rite Aid's will drop. You don't risk downtown vibrancy for insignificant economic reasons.

You may support it because you think the Pellini's are nice people, "it's the only thing we have" or "it's better than what's there now". I don't think any of those reasons are good enough for my town. The Pellini's may be nice people, but we've been looking at those old poorly kept buildings for twenty years. What's the rush?

If you don't understand the difference between "suburban" and "downtown" development, you need to educate yourself and really can't argue the design related issues of this project. Land in our downtown is too precious to allow just any old thing to be built. This project is just that, with a few trees, a trellis and some other stuff thrown in to keep us from seeing that is it below average at best. The core issue with this project lies in the suburban nature of the site plan which results in a building turning it's back on the sidewalk and the most important corner of our town to focus on the parking lot. This issue came up at the very first design review meetings and continued throughout the process but was never resolved or even addressed by the developer. Being a suburban developer, I don't think the applicant comprehends the differences between suburban and downtown site planning. Being unable to figure out how to respond, they turned their attention to adding things with friendly names like "trellises", "boulder gardens", "rain gardens" and "window skins" to screen the inadequate design. Don't be fooled. These only exist to distract us (and you) from the core problems with the site plan. Our DRB was correct in recognizing this fundamental problem and denying the project on those grounds alone. Without recognizing downtown/urban differences, our downtown will be doomed to dwindling vibrancy.

There is a fundamental difference in human behavior between downtown and suburban developments. In suburban developments and at this development, people arrive by car, park at or near the front door of their destination, enter, shop and then depart. They seldom interact with other stores in the center and almost never interact with the street or sidewalk. Suburban developments are designed to encourage and reward car-centric, anti social behavior that has eroded the community fabric of our society.


Human behavior in a downtown places a much higher value on social interaction. If this development was downtown in nature, shoppers would walk downtown or park behind the buildings or in remote peripheral locations and navigate on foot to sidewalks where they enter stores and interact with their neighbors. Downtowns consciously trade auto-centric convenience for social interaction. Understanding this difference is essential when evaluating any design proposed downtown.


Local Examples or Downtown and Urban
You can see examples of both types of development right in our downtown today. You can also see how even one small lot developed in a suburban way can negatively affect or even kill the vibrancy of a street. Walk on the South side of Bodega Avenue from Main Street to the Pellini lot and notice how the pedestrian experience dies as soon as you pass Jasper O'Farrell's and cross the driveways in front of the WestAmerica bank drive-thru. The same is true of Rite Aid, Safeway and the Whole Foods center. The sidewalks in front of all are dead relative to Main Street. The three three conditions that will destroy a sidewalk experience are:

1. Driveways and drive-throughs - they are dangerous to pedestrians and break up the sidewalk experience
2. Parking lots fronting streets - When walking or shopping, I will cross a street to avoid them
3. Lack of windows - The South side of Westamerica Bank and the North side of Silk moon are both unpleasant examples.

Now think about this project. Measure the frontage of the property and look at how much is actual storefront, not just fake windows. Measure the parking lot frontage and compare it to Rite Aid. Picture yourself walking past long glass walls with ads for disposable diapers. Walk past building gaps, drive-thrus and mid-block driveways downtown. Then tell me why you think this design belongs downtown.

I completly disagree with some fo the underlying assumptions of your argument but then I realize, unlike most I think, that it is possible for two equally caring, rational, smart people to be on the opposite sides of this argument. Since the pubic comment period is over I really don't want to waste lot of time trying getting into a public argument about whose 'facts' are more factual, best, or rational. I am not going to change any entrenched views and its probably too late anyway.

That being said, I think I will respond to your rather condescending core 'Urban' vs 'Suburban' argument. If I understand it correctly, you are saying Urban is more desirable and, roughly, urban means residents will walk or bike to a particular location to 'hang out' and it does not easily cater to commuter customers. By that argument many businesses (Rite Aid, Safeway etc) that are along the main drag fit the bill of being Suburban. Even so, I regularly walk or bike to these businesses and, if you are a resident who lives closer to them than I (I live on the outskirts) and you are being a 'suburban' (driving to them) then it doesn't matter what the business is. What you seem to be proposing is that, instead of the current development, you want a resteraunt, club, coffee shop, or 'gift shop' which all are 'urban' by your definition. We have all of these in overabundance and none of them cater to the NEEDS of a MODERATE income. What I want is for the 'suburban' businesses to be on the East side of town (Barlow, Pellini areas) and for the 'Urban' businesses to remain on the main drag. I love the downtown 'gift shop' (and want it to be even more 'gift shop'- displacing many of the other businesses, especially the ones that have bad practices. I want something other than 'gift shops'.

If you have a serious development proposal that fits your definition of 'Urban' and also caters to the NEEDS of a MODERATE income, than I will be right there protesting the development with you. My decision to support the development has nothing to do with how I feel about the Pellinis.

Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

I think many who are opposed and almost all in favor of this project are missing some important points.

For those who oppose the project because you don't like Chase and CVS, remember that government only has the authority given by the people, in this case as described in our municipal codes. Allowing a City to make up the rules as they go is a scary proposition.

For those who support the project because you think it is good for economy, think again. This project will be revenue neutral at best. The construction jobs will be filled from Sacramento, the employees already work in town, sales tax revenue will be flat since Rite Aid's will drop. You don't risk downtown vibrancy for insignificant economic reasons.

You may support it because you think the Pellini's are nice people, "it's the only thing we have" or "it's better than what's there now". I don't think any of those reasons are good enough for my town. The Pellini's may be nice people, but we've been looking at those old poorly kept buildings for twenty years. What's the rush?

If you don't understand the difference between "suburban" and "downtown" development, you need to educate yourself and really can't argue the design related issues of this project. Land in our downtown is too precious to allow just any old thing to be built. This project is just that, with a few trees, a trellis and some other stuff thrown in to keep us from seeing that is it below average at best. The core issue with this project lies in the suburban nature of the site plan which results in a building turning it's back on the sidewalk and the most important corner of our town to focus on the parking lot. This issue came up at the very first design review meetings and continued throughout the process but was never resolved or even addressed by the developer. Being a suburban developer, I don't think the applicant comprehends the differences between suburban and downtown site planning. Being unable to figure out how to respond, they turned their attention to adding things with friendly names like "trellises", "boulder gardens", "rain gardens" and "window skins" to screen the inadequate design. Don't be fooled. These only exist to distract us (and you) from the core problems with the site plan. Our DRB was correct in recognizing this fundamental problem and denying the project on those grounds alone. Without recognizing downtown/urban differences, our downtown will be doomed to dwindling vibrancy.

There is a fundamental difference in human behavior between downtown and suburban developments. In suburban developments and at this development, people arrive by car, park at or near the front door of their destination, enter, shop and then depart. They seldom interact with other stores in the center and almost never interact with the street or sidewalk. Suburban developments are designed to encourage and reward car-centric, anti social behavior that has eroded the community fabric of our society.


Human behavior in a downtown places a much higher value on social interaction. If this development was downtown in nature, shoppers would walk downtown or park behind the buildings or in remote peripheral locations and navigate on foot to sidewalks where they enter stores and interact with their neighbors. Downtowns consciously trade auto-centric convenience for social interaction. Understanding this difference is essential when evaluating any design proposed downtown.


Local Examples or Downtown and Urban
You can see examples of both types of development right in our downtown today. You can also see how even one small lot developed in a suburban way can negatively affect or even kill the vibrancy of a street. Walk on the South side of Bodega Avenue from Main Street to the Pellini lot and notice how the pedestrian experience dies as soon as you pass Jasper O'Farrell's and cross the driveways in front of the WestAmerica bank drive-thru. The same is true of Rite Aid, Safeway and the Whole Foods center. The sidewalks in front of all are dead relative to Main Street. The three three conditions that will destroy a sidewalk experience are:

1. Driveways and drive-throughs - they are dangerous to pedestrians and break up the sidewalk experience
2. Parking lots fronting streets - When walking or shopping, I will cross a street to avoid them
3. Lack of windows - The South side of Westamerica Bank and the North side of Silk moon are both unpleasant examples.

Now think about this project. Measure the frontage of the property and look at how much is actual storefront, not just fake windows. Measure the parking lot frontage and compare it to Rite Aid. Picture yourself walking past long glass walls with ads for disposable diapers. Walk past building gaps, drive-thrus and mid-block driveways downtown. Then tell me why you think this design belongs downtown.

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I'm am disappointed but not surprised that you characterized my comments regarding downtown/suburban differences as condescending and that you don't realize that large corporate businesses successfully operate in downtown environments all the time and I welcome them downtown if they are designed appropriately. Look at many small downtowns in the Bay Area, Ashland Oregon or many of the neighborhoods of San Francisco. Many have supermarkets and pharmacies in their core. Good downtown design does not mean "small shop", it means that pedestrian interaction happens between the sidewalk and the store, not the parking lot and the store. Safeway, RiteAid and Whole Foods are all "suburban" designs where the interaction is removed from the sidewalk. The sidewalks fronting streets in front of them are unpleasant pedestrian environments. We can't allow any more to be built.

" If I understand it correctly, you are saying Urban is more desirable and, roughly, urban means residents will walk or bike to a particular location to 'hang out' and it does not easily cater to commuter customers." No, I'm saying that all interaction in good urban developments happens on the sidewalk. I'm also not saying one is always more desirable, just that suburban is not appropriate downtown.

"Even so, I regularly walk or bike to these businesses and, if you are a resident who lives closer to them than I (I live on the outskirts) and you are being a 'suburban' (driving to them) then it doesn't matter what the business is."
Of course you can walk or ride a bike to any business, but that doesn't make it good for downtown. I occasionally ride my bike to Santa Rosa Marketplace. Does not make it good downtown design?

"What I want is for the 'suburban' businesses to be on the East side of town (Barlow, Pellini areas) and for the 'Urban' businesses to remain on the main drag." Sorry, this type of thinking is just not good enough for our town. Saying that one section of town can be less than good is not acceptable. Again, large businesses that serve moderate income people can and do operate in downtowns, but they have to made to do so. If not, they will fall the easiest and cheapest solution and just drop their standard formula solution everywhere, maybe adding a "rain garden" or trellis to appease the locals. I don't want to live "everywhere".

It's easy to criticize the comments of others, so I welcome your specific thoughts on why you think this project is appropriate in our downtown from a design standpoint.

Ted

what i would like to see at this corner is a jc annex. the jc could sell or trade the 35 acres on hurlbut they currently own and after buying pellini's have money left over for construction and design. having a college downtown would vitalize business (mostly affordable ones), and culture. there would be more public transit too and less trips to sr for west county students.

of course traffic increase would be even more than with cvs/chase and since this would be a public institution project, maybe the tens of millions needed to really improve flow through this crossroads town could be part of the deal. think of two auto through lanes dropped below 12 from the city owned trailer park east of morris to in front of the fire station.

does this proposal spark your imagination taishon?

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

I completly disagree with some fo the underlying assumptions of your argument but then I realize, unlike most I think, that it is possible for two equally caring, rational, smart people to be on the opposite sides of this argument. Since the pubic comment period is over I really don't want to waste lot of time trying getting into a public argument about whose 'facts' are more factual, best, or rational. I am not going to change any entrenched views and its probably too late anyway.

That being said, I think I will respond to your rather condescending core 'Urban' vs 'Suburban' argument. If I understand it correctly, you are saying Urban is more desirable and, roughly, urban means residents will walk or bike to a particular location to 'hang out' and it does not easily cater to commuter customers. By that argument many businesses (Rite Aid, Safeway etc) that are along the main drag fit the bill of being Suburban. Even so, I regularly walk or bike to these businesses and, if you are a resident who lives closer to them than I (I live on the outskirts) and you are being a 'suburban' (driving to them) then it doesn't matter what the business is. What you seem to be proposing is that, instead of the current development, you want a resteraunt, club, coffee shop, or 'gift shop' which all are 'urban' by your definition. We have all of these in overabundance and none of them cater to the NEEDS of a MODERATE income. What I want is for the 'suburban' businesses to be on the East side of town (Barlow, Pellini areas) and for the 'Urban' businesses to remain on the main drag. I love the downtown 'gift shop' (and want it to be even more 'gift shop'- displacing many of the other businesses, especially the ones that have bad practices. I want something other than 'gift shops'.

If you have a serious development proposal that fits your definition of 'Urban' and also caters to the NEEDS of a MODERATE income, than I will be right there protesting the development with you. My decision to support the development has nothing to do with how I feel about the Pellinis.

Sal

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It does spark my imagination but is extremly unlikely to happen. I can't imaghine the JC agreeing to putting a Satellite in Sebastopol due to its small population compared to, say, Petaluma. I doubt it would be fiscally feasible even for a government funded project like a satellite community college campus. I am also not sure it caters to the NEEDS of a MODERATE income other than it might allow a small selection of such to upgrade their opportunities IF they have the time and resources to attend and, such a small campus would offer full classes (that would not be cancelled) that would be useful. I would love a well-designed trade school or some such on that corner. Now..can you show me ANY real efforts to producing such as an alternative ? I can imagine this as a desirable development but not anything close to a feasible one.
Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

what i would like to see at this corner is a jc annex. the jc could sell or trade the 35 acres on hurlbut they currently own and after buying pellini's have money left over for construction and design. having a college downtown would vitalize business (mostly affordable ones), and culture. there would be more public transit too and less trips to sr for west county students.

of course traffic increase would be even more than with cvs/chase and since this would be a public institution project, maybe the tens of millions needed to really improve flow through this crossroads town could be part of the deal. think of two auto through lanes dropped below 12 from the city owned trailer park east of morris to in front of the fire station.

does this proposal spark your imagination taishon?

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Still have not heard a specific statement of why the proposed SITE DESIGN (not tax revenue, jobs, benches, crosswalks etc., but the actual site design) is good and appropriate for our downtown ... crickets ... anyone?

Ted

the jc is planning to develop a sebastopol campus. while the town itself is 7k the zip is 20k and west county as a whole is 50k, similar to petaluma. and the current jc campus is built out. also there are lots of career training programs at the jc that don't need a 4 yr degree.

the question is where will the campus be located, not if. imagining it downtown is just one example of the amazing development opportunities possible with a whole block for sale in the center of town. of course a drug store and bank is better than an old abandoned car dealership, and it is an extreme underutilization of the heart of town.

my idea is big, bold, rational and reasonable. wether it is politically and financially possible doesn't matter as long as cvs has a lease option. this discussion reminds me of my parents and aunt fighting over what to do with my grandfathers beach house. after all the hurt feelings the delay paid off for them big time. the pellini's will be able to sell their property and by turning back this first offer the city council will be doing them a favor.

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

It does spark my imagination but is extremly unlikely to happen. I can't imaghine the JC agreeing to putting a Satellite in Sebastopol due to its small population compared to, say, Petaluma. I doubt it would be fiscally feasible even for a government funded project like a satellite community college campus. I am also not sure it caters to the NEEDS of a MODERATE income other than it might allow a small selection of such to upgrade their opportunities IF they have the time and resources to attend and, such a small campus would offer full classes (that would not be cancelled) that would be useful. I would love a well-designed trade school or some such on that corner. Now..can you show me ANY real efforts to producing such as an alternative ? I can imagine this as a desirable development but not anything close to a feasible one.
Sal

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I am more intrigued but not yet convinced and certainly not convinced enough to try to force that on the Pellinis.
Petaluma's population is spread over a denser area near more employers that would utilize graduates than the West County's spread out population. I had heard 'talk' of a West County JC campus but I alse heard 'talk' that it would be easier and more feasible to rent out classroom space at high schools and fire departments and meeting hall rooms (such as offering EMT classes at a M. Rio), which the JC currently does, rather than spending possible millions to develop a brand new satellite campus in this economy (or possibly any future economy). There are many reasons why the West County would not be feasible compared to the current one in Petaluma. I would be grateful for more information about what you see as 'inevitable' plans.

It sounds great..I just don't see it happening and I am not willing to use political or social pressure to thwart the current development idea in favor one that I really believe would never happen.

To carry out your analogy further, what is happening is that your parents and aunt are fighting over what a neighbor is going to do with their abandoned lot and trying to force the neighbor into developing it into a way that they see fit.

I have even crazier more bold development ideas but they all break down in the light of feasibility and economy and what i consider best for the population at large.


Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

the jc is planning to develop a sebastopol campus. while the town itself is 7k the zip is 20k and west county as a whole is 50k, similar to petaluma. and the current jc campus is built out. also there are lots of career training programs at the jc that don't need a 4 yr degree.

the question is where will the campus be located, not if. imagining it downtown is just one example of the amazing development opportunities possible with a whole block for sale in the center of town. of course a drug store and bank is better than an old abandoned car dealership, and it is an extreme underutilization of the heart of town.

my idea is big, bold, rational and reasonable. wether it is politically and financially possible doesn't matter as long as cvs has a lease option. this discussion reminds me of my parents and aunt fighting over what to do with my grandfathers beach house. after all the hurt feelings the delay paid off for them big time. the pellini's will be able to sell their property and by turning back this first offer the city council will be doing them a favor.

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Thank you for clarifying the difference between suburban and downtown. If you didn't mean it condescendingly then I apologize but it sure felt like you were lecturing and assuming ignorance.

I doubt the actual main street downtown of Sebastopol will ever be suburban. That being said, if we follow your definition of suburban pretty literally, then many business, such as Hopmonk would qualify as Suburban. So would the upcoming Barlow's development plan. However, I am going to give you more credit than that and say I get the difference between faux commercial windows showing Dressed manikins, and Hopmonk. I don't want to reiterate the positive design considerations which are clearly outlined in the development plans (and, yes, I know many of elements are overstated and misleading) except to say that the development plan will more likely provide a place for a retired person on fixed income or a parent with 2 small children to sit down and take a breather at a nice location while shopping for their basic needs while not spending a lot of money. It really comes down to whether you, subjectively, think the development plan fits what you are willing to compromise with. I don't see what I can say or show you that would convince you or change your view beyond those plans and whats already been said. I would add that, if you are against the proposed development than you should be against much of the current commercial development (Safeway etc) that already exists. And, yes, I would rather compromise than wait another 20 years (which could actual happen).

Ashland and other such communities are always in the shadow of Universities and colleges (in fact, had Rohnert Park been done right, it might easily have been an Ashland rather than a Suburbia in the shadow of an over-priced Berkley wannabe :0) Had, Sebastopol developed with a University or major college at its core, I see it being almost all 'downtown'). I cannot think of another example of an Ashland, without a major college or University as its core (feel free to correct me if you can think of one)

There are nutcase extremists on both sides this argument. The anti-developers who think that anything corporate is evil and wrong and will condemn us all and the pro-developers who think that anyone politically active in Sebastopol is an aging rich selfish pot smoking hippy who wants only an organic herb garden. Then there are the moderates that see merits in both stances.

The public comment period is over (and I bet the council has already decided). Either the development will go through and there will be various protests that probably will not stop it or it won't go through and there will be an ongoing litigation. In either case I hope that the moderates win and something great gets developed soon. There isn't much point in debating here anymore since it won't change anyone's views or push any real action.

Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT:

I'm am disappointed but not surprised that you characterized my comments regarding downtown/suburban differences as condescending and that you don't realize that large corporate businesses successfully operate in downtown environments all the time and I welcome them downtown if they are designed appropriately. Look at many small downtowns in the Bay Area, Ashland Oregon or many of the neighborhoods of San Francisco. Many have supermarkets and pharmacies in their core. Good downtown design does not mean "small shop", it means that pedestrian interaction happens between the sidewalk and the store, not the parking lot and the store. Safeway, RiteAid and Whole Foods are all "suburban" designs where the interaction is removed from the sidewalk. The sidewalks fronting streets in front of them are unpleasant pedestrian environments. We can't allow any more to be built.

" If I understand it correctly, you are saying Urban is more desirable and, roughly, urban means residents will walk or bike to a particular location to 'hang out' and it does not easily cater to commuter customers." No, I'm saying that all interaction in good urban developments happens on the sidewalk. I'm also not saying one is always more desirable, just that suburban is not appropriate downtown.

"Even so, I regularly walk or bike to these businesses and, if you are a resident who lives closer to them than I (I live on the outskirts) and you are being a 'suburban' (driving to them) then it doesn't matter what the business is."
Of course you can walk or ride a bike to any business, but that doesn't make it good for downtown. I occasionally ride my bike to Santa Rosa Marketplace. Does not make it good downtown design?

"What I want is for the 'suburban' businesses to be on the East side of town (Barlow, Pellini areas) and for the 'Urban' businesses to remain on the main drag." Sorry, this type of thinking is just not good enough for our town. Saying that one section of town can be less than good is not acceptable. Again, large businesses that serve moderate income people can and do operate in downtowns, but they have to made to do so. If not, they will fall the easiest and cheapest solution and just drop their standard formula solution everywhere, maybe adding a "rain garden" or trellis to appease the locals. I don't want to live "everywhere".

It's easy to criticize the comments of others, so I welcome your specific thoughts on why you think this project is appropriate in our downtown from a design standpoint.

Ted

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So, the sum of your positive thoughts and the design of the project are. "I don't want to reiterate the positive design considerations which are clearly outlined in the development plans (and, yes, I know many of elements are overstated and misleading) ? Really? If that's really all the positive comments you can articulate, then we agree that this discussion is a waste of time.

Even though you can't describe one positive aspect of the site design, I'll tell you a fast simple way to make it better. Eliminate the entry Drive off the highway. Then pull the parking back and put a plaza between the buildings and move the CVS building entrance to the center of the building facing West on the sidewalk. Then eliminate the back door of Chase and you're done. Cars park behind, poeple walk through a nice little plaza where your 70 year old woman sits on their way to interact with their neighbors and the store on the sidewalk. Presto! Downtown! The developer won't do it ... why? ... because they are from Roseville ... suburban hell and it doesn't fit their lame suburban model of human interaction.

You may want to visit Walnut Creek, Noe Valley in San Francisco, Healdsburg, Redwood City, Valencia, new urban developments in Glendale and Santa Monica and ongoing work in Sunnyvale. There's some pretty interesting stuff going on in towns that don't have Universities. Not all of it's good, but there's something to learn everywhere.

As for waiting 20 years ... except for the cars being gone, the Pellini building has looked exactly as it does for at least that long. Waiting a few more for something that makes our town better makes sense to me.

Again I ask ... can anyone point out one good aspect of the site design?

Heavy sigh ...

Ted

Even though you can't describe one positive aspect of the site design

Thanx for the bating comment. Its not that I can't, its that if you have looked at the development plan and read my previous posts then there is no point in re-posting or reiterating. We disagree on whether the design is a good one..thats mainly subjective and no amount of restating is going to change that.

When I get past the hyperbole, I agree with many of your points but not enough to halt what I consider a good developmental idea (at least compared to a lot of the current development).

What more is there to say that will change anything ?

Sal

It's not a baiting comment ... it's an attempt to get someone, anyone, to, in their words, describe why they think this proposal is good. Haven't hear it so far and you can't seem to put it in words. When did our egos become so fragile?

Forgot to mention: Hop Monk is historic, so does not fit into a category specifically. Safeway, Rite Aid and Whole Foods are "suburban" but existing. I am not proposing that we rebuild existing, but apply downtown standards on new development in our core so we don't get more of that pattern downtown.

The Barlow is a great example, thank you. It's in a different zone (Industrial), but when yo really look at it, you'll see that it is designed to be "downtown"-like with sidewalks, storefronts and parking areas designed to be like streets. Excellent example of a creative approach to making an industrial development fit downtown. The Northeast Plan would have allowed more downtown development in that area and I supported that plan.

Ted

it's an attempt to get someone, anyone, to, in their words, describe why they think this proposal is good. Haven't hear it so far and you can't seem to put it in words. When did our egos become so fragile?

Its not that I can't..its that I already have and the design plan itself is the best explanation (saying "can't" or "won't' is baiting and independent of ego, fragile or not). This is analogous to a debate where one person argues, with slides, say the merits of eating tofu and the other person saying.."Why aren't you restating your whole presentation ? See..you can't ! Besides, I insist on tofu of a certain flavor so no matter how you state your argument, I am not going to eat the tofu unless it has this certain flavor".

Admitted, you make a good argument for the flavor but I still want the tofu, even as is.

Its likely that, eventually, I will get what I want. Either the development will get built, as is, in the next year or so, or something even better will, eventually, get in its place. I can't imagine anything worse being developed there as the town will not likely tolerate it. I just hope the debate doesn't push of ANY quality (in my subjective opinion) from happening in a reasonable time.

Sal

I can see lots of support for a JC annex, if it were geared toward what's great about Sebastopol - a focus on Green/ Sustainability. The City and JC could partner in a Green Jobs & Small Business Development program; having for-profit and non-profit aspects, with something like the Sonoma Mountian Village + Exploratorium to dive deep into the the science and art of optimal living, working and playing.

"The Green Garage" is my name for something like what Robert Porter and Daniel Osmer have brought up; a center to help entrepreneurs bring ideas to market; while engaging high schoolers in the process as well, to help drive their interest in science and math.

I had only been thinking about looking for investors and non-profit orgs to tap for developing this; making it part of SRJC is an excellent idea. :waccosun:

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

It does spark my imagination but is extremly unlikely to happen. I can't imaghine the JC agreeing to putting a Satellite in Sebastopol due to its small population compared to, say, Petaluma. I doubt it would be fiscally feasible even for a government funded project like a satellite community college campus. I am also not sure it caters to the NEEDS of a MODERATE income other than it might allow a small selection of such to upgrade their opportunities IF they have the time and resources to attend and, such a small campus would offer full classes (that would not be cancelled) that would be useful. I would love a well-designed trade school or some such on that corner. Now..can you show me ANY real efforts to producing such as an alternative ? I can imagine this as a desirable development but not anything close to a feasible one.
Sal

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my understanding is that the jc owns 35 acres on hurlbut ave and imagines developing it into a campus for "10 to 15 thousand students in 10 to 15 years". so clearly there was strong interest in a sebastopol area campus. it will be difficult for them to change the 2 acre lot r2 zoning and get the property annexed to the city and utilities extended. i am sure we will all have a lot to say if this idea is formally put forth.

i am pretty sure the council has to take public comment on a meeting agenda item, even if it has been commented on in past meetings. the most exciting aspect of a jc pellini campus is the possibility of doing something significant to improve traffic flow through sebastopol. the claim that the cvs plan has traffic improvements is ridiculous. going north on 116 to turn right and go east on 12 is the only move that doesn't get regularly gridlocked now! the biggest problem is east west flow on 12. this development will gum this up more.

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Posted in reply to the post by Peace Voyager:

I can see lots of support for a JC annex, if it were geared toward what's great about Sebastopol - a focus on Green/ Sustainability. The City and JC could partner in a Green Jobs & Small Business Development program; having for-profit and non-profit aspects, with something like the Sonoma Mountian Village + Exploratorium to dive deep into the the science and art of optimal living, working and playing.

"The Green Garage" is my name for something like what Robert Porter and Daniel Osmer have brought up; a center to help entrepreneurs bring ideas to market; while engaging high schoolers in the process as well, to help drive their interest in science and math.

I had only been thinking about looking for investors and non-profit orgs to tap for developing this; making it part of SRJC is an excellent idea. :waccosun:

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"the most exciting aspect of a jc pellini campus is the possibility of doing something significant to improve traffic flow through sebastopol"

...Yeah, sure, a big improvement...until those 10-15,000 students show up for the first day of school! :thumbsup:

you're not tracking the discussion very well. this was their idea 5 years ago when the jc got the property on hurlbut. for decades any thinking person has figured out that the way for sebastopol traffic to flow is bypass, and most who can do. a real bypass for 12 or 116 has been politically unfeasable. an underpass might work, and isn't in the budget. maybe a community college could pull funds for a small one?

think stonypoint undercrossing. undertime and budget by using the ground as form for the deck and then excavating.

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Posted in reply to the post by Louie:

"the most exciting aspect of a jc pellini campus is the possibility of doing something significant to improve traffic flow through sebastopol"

...Yeah, sure, a big improvement...until those 10-15,000 students show up for the first day of school! :thumbsup:

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The public comment for this agenda item is now closed. The council will not be taking any public comment on Tues. Feb. 7th. Here is a link to the agenda for the meeting which includes this statement: "A Public Hearing on this matter was conducted on January 23, 2012, and the public comment component is closed. The matter is now before the council for deliberation and action."

https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/sites/de...agenda_pdf.pdf

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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:

my understanding is that the jc owns 35 acres on hurlbut ave and imagines developing it into a campus for "10 to 15 thousand students in 10 to 15 years". so clearly there was strong interest in a sebastopol area campus. it will be difficult for them to change the 2 acre lot r2 zoning and get the property annexed to the city and utilities extended. i am sure we will all have a lot to say if this idea is formally put forth.

i am pretty sure the council has to take public comment on a meeting agenda item, even if it has been commented on in past meetings. the most exciting aspect of a jc pellini campus is the possibility of doing something significant to improve traffic flow through sebastopol. the claim that the cvs plan has traffic improvements is ridiculous. going north on 116 to turn right and go east on 12 is the only move that doesn't get regularly gridlocked now! the biggest problem is east west flow on 12. this development will gum this up more.

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oh well, my partner wanted to comment at the public hearing meeting and we were trying to be first in line, but the baby got tired after an hour or so and we had to leave during the developer power point. i thought the pictures they used to show how the project will look after drb changes were very misleading.

i did have some interesting conversations with rotary members. they mostly seemed concerned about anticorporate bias on the drb. since this proposal fit the zoning and followed the rules that was good enough. were not interested in engaging with general and specific benefit to sebastopol questions.

when the council does vote on it i guess the majority will be most concerned about legal liability. this will be revealed in their staff directed questions.

i always have wondered why shaffer has not been mayor or vice mayor or gets board appointments, now i know :(

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Posted in reply to the post by Maureen:

The public comment for this agenda item is now closed. The council will not be taking any public comment on Tues. Feb. 7th. Here is a link to the agenda for the meeting which includes this statement: "A Public Hearing on this matter was conducted on January 23, 2012, and the public comment component is closed. The matter is now before the council for deliberation and action."

https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/sites/de...agenda_pdf.pdf

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