Shepherd, thank you so much....
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Shepherd, thank you so much....
Backed up traffic on Hwy 12? And on Bodega Ave and Bodega Hwy? And just think, folks, this is WINTER! Wait until all the beachgoers get here again.......
Thanks for this Info Shepherd. What is not mentioned (by these wineries) is over the years and decades they will make/profit in the Billions, ($ with a B). What will they give back (now) to go forward with their plans?Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
5150. police code for crazy one on the loose. Danger to property, danger to others, and danger to themselves... you better call the cops before she goes 5150 on...Urban DictionaryQuote:
Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:
[They are asking for 58 promotional events a year, including 6 with 300 person maximum and 4 with 600 person maximum that include outdoor amplified music.
Note that the entrance to the winery crosses the Joe Rodota multi-use trail. There is existing driveway that crosses the trail, but this project will make much heavier use of it.]
Is that area (5150) a 2 lane stretch of Hwy 12 with a double yellow line? Isn’t it illegal to cross a double yellow line? Rev BE suggested to move this entrance to Llano Rd. I think that’s a splendid idea!
The Impact: many of these concert goers (could be) staying in town at 1 of 3 major hotels: Fairfield, Sebastopol Inn and the Barlow Hotel, (and others). Where will they park all these vehicles, Rvs, etc.?Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:
Will there be Shuttle Service dedicated to/from these Events?
All excellent points, sealwatcher. An EIR for sure!!!Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:
Sorry to hear about your friend Nancy. My condolences.
The entire world debt has exceeded $223 trillion. Who do we repay?
The world economy is going to experience a dramatic downturn. The US is currently propping everyone up
but this can't continue. The wine industry is not impervious to such a downturn. Liquidity
will dry up (sorry for the pun.) Demand will disappear. It's myopic to think "full steam ahead, captain."
Businesses must have very deep pockets in order to survive a depression. Much of the expansion that
has occurred is less than 20,000 cases. Many of those businesses will be fighting for their lives.
This behemoth is running on the assumption that the economy will not suffer a contraction and that
those very same consumers will be there. I'm hard pressed to think that it will be.
Everything is connected.
Bill Shortridge, a grapegrower, just sent the following to the Sebastopol City Council. It is a good example, in my opinion, of how to appeal to the councilmembers. In a separate email, he said that the issue of all the waste water should also be addressed. Who might be willing to do that Tues.? Hope to see many of you today at the 5150 Hiway 12 site, starting at 2:30 and going on for as long as we need to.
It seems ludicrous that just after experiencing the driest January in California history, we are discussing another brand new winery that will extract at least 16 million gallons of water per year. I say at least, because I used the conservative figure of 10 gallons of water to yield 1 gallon of wine.
Unfortunately, in my research, I have not been able to verify my numbers (my numbers came from LaCrema winery when I worked there six years ago. They have since quadrupled their production). In fact, the lowest numbers I have been able to find are 29 gallons of water to make 1 GLASS of wine.
This includes everything from irrigating the vines to washing the tarmac on the crush pad. Please read this important article by Mike Dunne for the Sac Bee.
https://www.sacbee.com/food-drink/wi...le2622749.html
For this particular project, the proposed 500,000 case production would require 196,000,000 gallons of water per year pulled from the aquifer. That DOES NOT include the 250,000 gallons of distiller spirits they plan to make on top of the planned wine production. And believe me, like every other winery in the state, once established, this winery will seek to increase production.
It is my opinion that the entire state of California should place a moratorium on new vineyard and winery development, not just during the drought, but until we can determine what damage this industry (that I work in) does across the state. According to NPR, people in Paso Robles have to use paper plates to eat because they don't have the water to wash dishes OR take baths. Vineyard installation in that area has exploded, unchecked, without regard to the natural resources or the people who rely on them.
California has gone from an agriculture that has benefitted all to a monoculture that benefits a few; over 70,000 acres of wine grapes planted versus 12,000 of EVERYTHING ELSE.
This project sets a dangerous precedence and, in my opinion, would destroy the Laguna de Santa Rosa and open the door to more insensitive projects in an environment that cannot support them.
This project is wrong for Sebastopol. It is wrong for Sonoma County.
Best,
Bill Shortridge
Citizen
WOW! Shepherd, that's a real eye opener!Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
The following article on the huge amount of water needed to make wine is important.
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...1_11-31-45.png
Dunne on Wine: Water used to make wine becomes issue during drought
BY MIKE DUNNE - SPECIAL TO THE BEE
10/10/2014 12:41 PM
If you have one of those “Save Water Drink Wine” bumper stickers on your car, you might want to rip it off.
And not only because the wit is so lame.
The advice is erroneous. In this time of drought, a bumper sticker urging fellow motorists to “Save Water Drink Water” makes more sense.
After all, 29 gallons of water were used to produce that glass of cabernet sauvignon you look forward to drinking with tonight’s dinner.
That, at least, is the calculation of the Water Footprint Network, a nonprofit foundation in the Netherlands that advocates for more sustainable, efficient and fair ways to use water.
Mesfin Mekonnen, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Twente in the Netherlands, and a Water Footprint associate involved in compiling data, said via email that the 29-gallon figure was based on such factors as rainfall, irrigation and water used in cellars during winemaking.
In California vineyards and cellars, is 29 gallons of water to produce a single glass of wine a realistic estimate?
Continues here: https://www.sacbee.com/food-drink/wi...#storylink=cpy
Is there such a thing as : WINE FRACKING?
This is not correct. There is an existing vineyard that is not being expanded. Furthermore the vineyard is irrigated with wastewater.Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
What is a concern, is the amount of additional water that will be required for the winery, including production and events. And the measurement would be the net change over the existing use.
Let's Drink to Wine Country
Oh yay!
Another winery, you say?
Bottles of wine line the grocery store shelves
Out of my price range
With fake French names from Chateau this and Chateau that
A veritable fruit punch called a "meritage"
What is this fixation on all things French?
We're in California
Surely the industry can at least celebrate
The very region it exploits to inebriate
I drink much less wine than back in the day
And am still turned off by all the clever names
Cartoon labels that scream from the aisle
"Look at me! Look at me!"
Like a spoiled child
Tasting rooms that are amusement parks
Funnel it's visitors through the gift shop
Then back on the booze cruise for the next stop
Don't you love it? Who wouldn't?
Water shortage?
It's a free country, and if I want to build a winery I will!
This is wine country, after all
I mean
People don't actually live here
They move here
Buy a parcel and install their dream
A vanity vineyard just upstream
Won't their peers be impressed
Their own name on a label!
Until
The dream loses its luster
And all that scarified goodness
Goes up for sale
Let's drink
To Wine Country...
You're right, Barry, this is not correct. What is not in dispute is that if this project goes through the sky will surely fall this time and our entire way of life will be gone forever. I just heard from a reputable source the drought will go on for another 14 or 15 years!!! Sometimes ya just gotta wonder.....Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
California has a history of extended droughts as long as 100+ years or more. See the link for: "The West Without Water." Lynn Ingram discusses the idea that all the rain that occurred in California in the 20th century might have been an anomaly.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/.../#.UwJ-6fldWao
https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520268555
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by jbox:
Something to think about:
Some years back, the treated waste water was all being used to irrigate crops in the area.
With modern treatment, this stuff is actually pretty clean (at least good enough to irrigate grapes.)
The problem for the city was that they couldn't store it over the winter with the ponds that they had.
Instead of continuing to make this water cleaner and cleaner and providing it for irrigation, the City of Santa Rosa built a 48" pipe and massive pumping system to pump it to the geysers and throw it into the ground to make steam. This cost more money than anyone can imagine. I was against this because I felt the time would come that we would need all that water. Guess where we are now?
What could have been done is a system of smaller ponds on farm properties to store water in the winter and use it in the summer. Anyway, the way things were done, Calpine was able to keep pumping water into the ground (and creating earthquakes) and making power from the steam but now the water is all going elsewhere and not available locally. I'm not passing judgement on the Geysers power, but where are we going to get all the water in the future.
Another point: We have never developed ground water recharge systems. When we engineer something, it is always to get the water to run off as fast as possible. This is incredibly stupid. What we really should be engineering is how to get more water to stay and percolate into the ground (slowly). The soil, plants, rocks, bacteria, and fungi will purify water if given half a chance.
In the days before the white man destroyed the local ecology, the natives encouraged the beavers to build dams throughout the Laguna, each of which created a large lake. These lakes not only hosted incredible populations of fish, birds and mammals but also recharged the water table in the entire region.
Having said this, we can all do the same thing on a smaller scale by capturing rain water and releasing it later. The most simple capture is a swale, an area that holds runoff water and lets it soak into the soil. If your swale can percolate 100 gallons (only 14 cubic ft.) and it rains ten times over the year, you've put 1,000 gallons into the water table. Seasonal ponds capture large amounts of water and allow it to percolate into the water table, but need to be carefully constructed. Tanks can perform the same function but are relatively expensive. Small lakes could be even better.
How crops are managed can also make a big difference. If you spray weed killer on your grapes in the winter, you are not only putting it into the streams when it rains but are causing the rainwater to run off instead of being caught in the weeds and infiltrating. Planting cover crops helps capture water and infiltrate into the soil. I personally think it is crazy to poison the soil every year so that nothing will grow.
Sorry for the long rant...
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dominus:
Following are my rough notes from today's meeting at the proposed winery site. I send it with the request that you make comments on how I might improve it before sending it out to the Sebastopol City Council, editors, and others tomorrow, probably in the morning. What would you suggest that I change, add, or delete? What might a better title be?
Since the public just heard about this large project, which seems to be on a fast track, I want to get something out to decision makers soon. "Time is of the essence." Thanks for any help.
Proposed winery visited on Hiway 12
A group met on Feb. 1 at the site for the proposed large winery on Highway 12 and Llano. Ironically, its address is 5150, which is the police code for someone crazy. Having 57,000 sq. ft of winery production area, a capacity of 500,000 cases of wine and 250,000 gallons of distilled spirits, with up to 48 promotional events a year with as many as 300 people a time, on 68 acres is indeed crazy. The hazards it would present to the unique Laguna and the humans who travel that urban separator between large town Santa Rosa and small town Sebastopol are numerous.
The last-minute gathering was attended by individuals who have participated in various groups, including the Rural Alliance, Sunshine Walkers, Cunningham Marsh Preservation Committee, Blucher Creek Watershed Council, the Sebastopol Grange, Sunshine Walkers, and the Numina Center for the Arts and Spirituality. A planner bought a copy of the application to the Permit and Resource Management Department PRMD).
We spoke mainly about what to say to the Sebastopol City Council at its Feb.3, Tues. meeting, which begins at 6 p.m. at the Youth Annex on Morris Street. The public hearing on the winery is scheduled as # 6 on the agenda, so it may start as early as 6:30. Since each member of the public will have only 3 minutes to speak at that meeting, following are some of the issues we discussed at our gathering. Feel free to bring any of these up at the City Council meeting, as well as in letters to PRMD planner Traci Tesconi ([email protected].) Those comments are due by Feb. 4.
The planner at the meeting made a number of criticisms of the application, including but not limited to the following:
1. It was filed Jan. 14, giving little time for a thorough study of the matter, followed by a response. Such a detailed application would benefit from more time by the agencies to which it was sent, and the public, which only more recently heard about the application. It appears to be on a fast track.
2. The application leaves too many issues unaddressed.
3. Though the application was sent to various agencies, it was not sent to the Water District. Water is certainly one of the crucial issues that must be addressed.
4. The application would benefit from an Environmental Impact Report (EIR).
Among the issues we discussed and plan to bring up at future meetings and articles are the following:
1. Location, Location, Location. The unique Laguna de Santa Rosa, where this industrial alcohol-processing factory would be located, is ignored in the application, and hence becomes “the elephant on the table.” That Laguna is an international treasure for fish, other animals, plants, and humans that expands over 30,000 acres and is part of the Pacific Flyway. For more visual evidence one could visit the wetlands exhibit currently at the Sebastopol Center for the Arts.
2. Water. A Sacramento Bee article reports that 29 gallons of water are needed to make one glass of wine. By taking that excessive amount of water for wine, in a time of drought, what would that mean for the nearby wells that depend on that water, as well as the wildlife? What about the sewage and waste that would be generated in that unincorporated area?
3. Traffic. With the recent addition of The Barlow and the pending downtown CVS Pharmacy in Sebastopol, this would add to the already snarled traffic. It would also reduce the urban separator between large town Santa Rosa and small town Sebastopol.
“This sounds like a Central Valley Project,” one farmer said. It is certainly not local, but represents what could be described as the “Napazation” of Sonoma County.
“Shooting for the moon” is how another person described the application, in order to play “the good developer,” appear to compromise and then end up with what they really wanted.
Among the strategies discussed was the need to request that the County extend their deadline, thus giving the public more time to study and respond.
Shepherd, I love it that you (and others?) took action; I can hardly wait for the report. I really appreciate the way you give details (like the large cow) and bring to our awareness things we couldn't possibly imagine!
Rev. BE :heart:
... and all the local folks who will be coming to visit the new Barlow development, check out all the new shops (or not) and go to Hole in the Wall for lunch...
Rev. BE :heart:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:
It seems to me "we" must do something about the parking situation in our downtown area very soon. There is just no way for people to get out of their own way! And emergency vehicles can't get to emergencies without creating other emergencies on the way! We sure don't need any more of these huge projects in the mix on our endangered highways! Perhaps Nancy had it right:
Just Say No!
Rev. BE :heart:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:
Awesome Poem here, Victoria, and so very true:Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Victoria Street:
People don't actually live here
They move here
Buy a parcel and install their dream
A vanity vineyard just upstream
Won't their peers be impressed
Their own name on a label!
Until
I know I am a little late to this discussion, but Sarah did not hit the nail on the head, as was mentioned in an earlier post. In fact she missed the nail entirely.
If this area of Sonoma County has any one lasting (historically) identity, it is that of larger scale ag production. 18-wheeler traffic was a very common thing here up until the closure of many of the apple processing plants in the 1970's. My grandfather was a long-haul truck driver for one of these companies hauling Apple Time products across the U.S. Before that it was prune production. that dominated the area with processing plants as well.
But- unlike the central valley, while we had larger centralized processing of agricultural products, the growing of these products was very much de-centralized, allowing small family farms to participate. a 2-5 acre farm was much more common than the 1000+ acre farm, more commonly tied in with "Big Ag." If anyone has had the opportunity to go through the historical membership records at the Grange Hall (which I have) you will see hundreds of names of small farmers on the rolls, many of which maintained orchards which sold their goods to the larger processors.
The irony is, most of you who comment negatively on agricultural expansion (wine grape or otherwise) came to live here in between the large ag cycles (prunes to apple to wine grape to ???) and never experienced what is was to live in Sebastopol during one of these ag boom cycles (Which was the majority of the time this town has existed). You will have a very difficult time changing one of the largest economic drivers of this part of the county until you come up with some type of viable alternative- which has yet to happen. Even when O'Rielly attempted to build here, he was spoken about in the same negative light. Harming another potential reality for this town.
Remember, you came to an area steeped in larger-scale agricultural production. Larger-scale agricultural production did not come to you.
Lets all practice calling it apple country, instead of wine country. maybe if everybody......
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:
I did.. that's true. I suppose that's one of the reasons I challenge the impulse to defend what we have now, and to turn it into something even better tuned to what lifestyle I want for myself. It's not just wacco - these days, it's difficult to get spokesmen for alternative perspectives to show up on any forum, because of the well recognized tendency to gather with and listen to those one agrees with (or is similar to).Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:
There's a lot to criticize in the way ag has been run, though, and a lot of other things have changed in the area besides an influx of previously-urban people. Maybe this facility shouldn't exist at all, but personally I hope we end up with a project that's a positive addition to the area. Although it would be cool in some sense to have the laguna restored to its state of a few hundred years ago, in the balance I'm glad that won't happen. This is a good area for people to live in. We just have to make sure that stays true.
You are so correct Sebtown. What makes this Project different (in my opine) is:Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:
1) AsVictoria stated in her poem (here):
"Look at me! Look at me!"
Like a spoiled child
Tasting rooms that are amusement parks
Funnel its visitors through the gift shop
Then back on the booze cruise for the next stop
Don't you love it? Who wouldn't?
Water shortage?
It's a free country, and if I want to build a winery I will!
This is wine country, after all
I mean...”
2) This is wine/alcohol production that can and will cause serious driving situations with all the Events expected at this location at Hwy. 12 and (IF) a vehicle crosses the highway at the JR Pathway, then has to break for pedestrian traffic, this could cause an accident. Planning for the future is key here. The population has exploded to 8 billion people. (IF) Sebastopol can do some wise planning today; it can better manage all these people as well as the expected traffic while still maintaining its unique charm too.
3) Sebastopol is the Gateway to the Pacific Ocean. This is the magnet, the epicenter of attractions. Let’s plan it safely, sustainably, and wisely, (is all I’m asking).
Thank you for your articulate perspective. From my perspective, the time you speak of has passed. We have a population problem on our planet with over 7 billion people with a life expectancy of close to 80 years. Additionally, we have a climate which is heating up. Also, we have a drought which could prove to be epic in that it's conceivable that it could persist not just for 2 or 3 years but 200 or 300 years. We all are faced with sharing the land and water and that includes wildlife. Many wineries who are growing grapes in Napa are corporate owned and live outside the area. We have the very same situation developing here in Sonoma County. Anytime there is a corporation which is owned by some entity outside the local area, it's easy to think that they will practice the very same good neighbor behavior that an owner might if local. That isn't always the case. Big agriculture hasn't always been such a positive experience.
You are quite right in that a new economic model must be developed which addresses our changing conditions.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968:
very informative Dan.Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by farmerdan:
I couldn’t agree with you more.
It’s time to take a long and hard look at our current habits and become better, more responsible Stewards of this land and Water than we have been in the past.
Today, (most of us) are more environmentally conscious of what it takes to be good stewards, from beginning, to middle, to end use. No longer will we allow big business to dictate to us their wasteful and polluting mandates: (Remember when they said cigarette smoking was healthy and doctor recommended?) Well, we proved them wrong too.
This is where the proverbial rubber meets the road.
Tim
This thread has many thoughtful comments worth our consideration. I am going to add one that is, I know, a bit eccentric. I posted a similar consideration last year regarding the celebration of two small expansions of wineries that were defeated. It was a rare instance of that kind to celebrate.
My consideration is this: if you are against the expansion of wineries, and alcohol production, perhaps it would be a timely moment to look at one's own usage of alcohol. It is the drug of choice in the U.S. And growth in this industry is propelled primarily by consumption. In Sonoma County the wine industry is the major economic driver and that is because so many people are driven to consume it. Advertising displays alcohol, and wine, consumption as something sophisticated and culturally advanced. It is actually difficult to avoid wine; it is offered everywhere.
The active ingredient in wine and alcoholic beverages is ethanol; a highly toxic chemical that causes extensive damage to the human organisim. There is simply no way around this. On an individual level ethanol damage effects the immune system, the brain, and depletes the body in general. On a sociological level, alcohol consumption is a primary factor in violent altercations and accidents. On an economic level, the land use for alcohol takes away from food production (wine and alcoholic beverages are not food, as they provide no nourishment); this, in turn, raises the price of food by limiting the productive land available for food production.
As I mentioned, this is a personal eccentricity of mine; to be opposed to alcohol consumption in Sonoma County definitely marginalizes you. Just to be clear, I am not a 12-stepper, nor have I gone through a period in my life of extreme alcohol consumption. I do not have alcoholics in my immediate family. My concern with the issue of alcohol initially emerged from observing how people behave when drinking and not liking what I saw. And I didn't like the way it effected me as well. I mention these aspects because the tendency is to think that someone who is opposed to alcohol as being an ex-addict, or something similar. This effectively changes the subject from alcohol itself to someone's personal history.
In closing, I'd just like to suggest that if you find the expansion problematic, perhaps you might want to consider your own participation in alcohol usage. As someone who has refrained from alcohol for decades now, I can attest that it is possible to do this and that the benefits of putting alcohol aside are considerable.
You all bring up good points, but they just re-enforce my argument. If you want the change you say you want- YOU have to be it. You can't keep saying "I wish someone would build/create/invent/allow for... " Real life is happening in real time. While you may want things a certain way, there are current entities that are prospering and expanding and planning all the time. This winery proposal just did not happen yesterday. The people behind the project have been building this idea for years.
I am not saying I don't agree that the old ag was the right ag. I am saying it was the ag of this area and is steeped in tradition. To undo it will take an immense amount of effort, full of individuals with a common vision, substantial capital and political influence (this is how the sausage is made)
Sitting on the sidelines and critiquing will not bring the change you desire. If you want to build a better future, pick up a shovel and start digging that foundation.
Wine will have its last days here as well. Replaced by legal weed, olives or whatever. Sebastopol had its chance at having a mini silicon valley and creative culture, but the squandered that opportunity by folding its arms and complaining about those who came to bring some type of change.
What future do you want to see?
Who is able to create that future?
Are you prepared to get behind this effort?
If you don't have real answers to those questions and are able to create change, you will be steamrolled by the current plan that is playing itself out as those entities have already done this work and are now pushing to make their plans a reality.
I would like to make it clear (as I stated in the beginning) that I am not against any proposed developments. After all, I have developed many large projects myself in my 38 year career in construction. What (I) am trying to do here is to use the current information that we have in this 21st century while planning ahead for the 22nd century. There is an old carpenter’s saying: “Measure twice, cut once.” That applies here too, (in this stage of planning). This Project does affect Sebastopol, its visitors and Sonoma residents alike when it comes to traffic mitigation, quality of life as well as our personal joys.Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Sebtown1968: