Re: PD Should read the SCIENCE before accusing Sebastopol of hysteria: Big Fluoride News
"…what does Sebastopol know…" is in agreement with
countries which have BANNED or REJECTED FLUORIDE:Germany
France
Austria
Switzerland
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Sweden
Finland
Japan
China (!!!)
Sodium Fluoride kills rodents, causes apathy, causes cancer, lowers intelligence.
Plenty of research available - help yourself.
Companies either pay for it to be dumped as a toxin
OR get paid by water agencies to add it to drinking water supplies.
Work it out.
I find it astounding that people around here (with lots of access to information, etc.) do not 'get it'
and want to continue to discuss the pros and cons of fluoride, on and on,
or GMO's, or...
These times require seeing the larger picture, relatively quickly, and acting.
Best of luck - to us all, Jude
Re: Why Does the Press Democrat Continually Insult Sebastopol and Even Lie About Us?
It is unfathomable that in THIS day and age with information right at their finger tips, people still refuse to believe that the government would actually conspire against them. Hmmmlets see, Iran Contra, Savings and Loan scandal, Enron scandal, The housing bubble collapse, masses of foreclosure...while banks receive buyouts....oh yes....and the icing on the cake .....wait for it...........911.
Some people REFUSE to acknowledge facts.
911
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l-8...DUpMgC-L9QySta
fluoride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Bq...DUpMgC-L9QySta
chemtrails
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0k...DUpMgC-L9QySta
These documentaries leave no doubt in my mind.....that we are NOT being told the truth
WAKE UP sheeple:waccosun:
Re: Why Does the Press Democrat Continually Insult Sebastopol and Even Lie About Us?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by zduckman:
It is unfathomable that in THIS day and age with information right at their finger tips, people still refuse to believe that the government would actually conspire against them.
These documentaries leave no doubt in my mind.....that we are NOT being told the truth
WAKE UP sheeple:waccosun:
probably your mamma never told you the truth about everything either. No-one (ok, no-one I've ever met) is totally, unguardedly transparent and agenda-free, even those whose motives are pure. I also have met very few sheeple, though there do seem to be a lot of people who are pretty susceptible to simplistic and superficial explanations. Sorry I can't think of a sufficiently derogatory way to name them after an animal.
I'm much more worried about those whose interests are totally different than mine and who are operating completely out in public. Many are in government, as elected officials (which makes their supporters part of the problem) and others are entrenched bureaucrats. Others are in business and many are in entertainment. They also recruit "ordinary people" to work against what I think is the public interest. If all these people were stopped, things would change far more than if all the hidden conspirators were unmasked instead.
Re: Why Does the Press Democrat Continually Insult Sebastopol and Even Lie About Us?
for those who wish to (begin/continue to) educate themselves about FLUORIDE, watch and read -
https://healthfreedoms.org/2014/03/1...r-the-skeptic/
and, as always, "follow the money".
:idea: :2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents::2cents: :2cents: :hmmm:
best, jude
Re: Why Does the Press Democrat Continually Insult Sebastopol and Even Lie About Us?
Someone needs to supply copies of Christopher Bryson's investigative journalism book
THE FLUORIDE DECEPTION, to whomever wrote this piece about us, plus to ALL members of the council considering fluoridation locally.
If excess fluoride (waters are naturally fluoridated) is put in nearby waters, we are all at risk,
especially "seniors"... 26% of menopausal women have a thyroid issue; many more develop them as they age.
For this very reason, those who have done their homework must show up at these farces called "discussions" across the nation, and especially here in SoCo.
They are presented by paid dentists, slide shows prepared far away, for questionable purposes.
While living in Boca Raton FL & teaching at a nearby university there, we attended the most embarrassing talk we had ever witnessed. It was supposed to promote fluoride, but the original presenter was ill, so another dentist presented the first doctor's slides. He did not have a clue. Most don't; they are paid to do this bidding.
The ADA is being directed by its major funders, successful businesses who build dental schools,
and in exchange, they want to continue to be able to dump their toxic waste byproducts into our drinking water;
all in the name of helping the poorest children.
Calling us "communists" does not negate their despicable gluttony.
As a Harvard educated MD and an RN, PhD with 8 books to our names, our last three thyroid books discuss the clear and obvious dangers to thyroid patients of this very questionable process!
There is too much to say here, but suffice it that there truly are no good studies on hydrofluosilicic acid,
which was substituted for sodium fluoride after the abandonment of the twin cities Michigan studies in the 50's.
What is known is that they contain mercury, lead, and other harmful pollutants, lowering IQ by 10 points in studies of children in China, causing increased osteosarcoma in young males, and it goes on.
The international research against it is massive. The EU banned it long ago, as have most civilized nations.
But leave it to us (U.S.) to find a way to dump industrial waste products into the water,
And then link it to patriotism...only in America.
Our medical offices are filled with Marin & Sonoma patients struggling against slowed thyroid function;
one of the major thyroid antagonists - besides chloride - is fluoride.
Past Surgeon Gen. C. Everett Koop should be held accountable for suggesting that fluoridation is one of our top accomplishments. Unless he was totally naive. Then he should not have been in charge of our health.
Why do we care?
We have spent the past 40 years educating our patients to do their homework,
to understand their delicate thyroid imbalances; and how they show up in our bodies.
We also encourage them to understand potential causes;
to fight in their communities against excess greed
Masquerading as patriotism and caring.
Name-calling is what is done when the facts are not on their side.
But this is simply not appropriate when it involves our health!
We are the ones who must speak out, OR - like canaries in the mines - we will pay the price for this deception.
Karilee Shames RN, PhD
Richard Shames MD
Proudly Sebastopol
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
...
The editorial:
Press Democrat "Thumbs Down" Editorial Monday February 10, 2014
Let them stop eating cake What is it that San Jose, San Francisco, New York and 72 percent of the nation's population know that Sebastopol doesn't? It's that fluoridation is not a communist plot and actually helps reduce tooth decay, particularly for children. Nonetheless, the Sebastopol City Council voted 5-0 on Feb. 5 to oppose plans to fluoridate Sonoma County Water Agency supplies. The county has been looking at fluoridation since a 2009 report found this region is experiencing “a staggering burden of suffering and a growing oral health divide between rich and poor.” Fluoridation has been shown to decrease cavities in kids up to 40 percent. Studies also show that every $1 invested in fluoridation saves an estimated $38 in dental care. But here's the kicker: Sebastopol doesn't even get its water from the county. Furthermore, the council voted before even reading the final reports. Apparently that well of junk science and conspiracy was just too tempting to resist.
Re: Why Does the Press Democrat Continually Insult Sebastopol and Even Lie About Us?
They tend to hide the truth and protect government officials and large corporations. Corruptions prevails in Sonoma County and the PD hides the facts. I remember when the PD attack Rue Furch while she was running for Supervisor and look what we got "Scum ball Carrillo".
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Geoff Johnson:
Re: Where that article "mentioned" fluoride
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
I am surprised that you were "hard pressed to find" where the article mentioned fluoride. Here it is excerpted:
I think I made it clear that I read the whole article. The point I made that you are focusing on is that the article was only barely about fluoridation, despite your claim that this was "Big News". The actual article on fluoridation of drinking water is reference #44, and is written by the same backing author (Grandjean), and is a very weak paper, scientifically.
Quote:
So the counter argument is that the study was flawed. "Nothing to see here folks," move on, and trust those with a vested financial interest,
I have no vested interest whatsoever. I am a concerned citizen whose children drink SoCo water. My only interest is that people seek truth, and not blindly grab on to propaganda (which is plentiful from both sides of this argument). Or base such decisions on emotional beliefs. We liberals like to think we're all about the science (e.g. the climate change debate, which science has proven) until science doesn't actually back the message we want to present. Then we go find some pseudo-science or bad-science to prop up our anecdotal-evidence-based beliefs. (Herbal remedies, HGH as a panacea, vaccines are evil, the list goes on and on.)
As I've said before, I am on the fence in this debate. If fluoride in water is demonstrably safe & effective, then it seems like a good idea to fluoridate our water. If it's demonstrably unsafe & ineffective, then I would oppose the idea. So when you posted something that ostensibly was going to be a solid scientific paper, I eagerly reviewed it. But the paper and it's references are IMO flawed; the authors make sweeping claims with little to back them up, and brush aside serious potential flaws in their data.
You posted the link to this paper with the implication that it was "Big Fluoride News;" It was nothing of the sort. It was a weak paper, referencing another weak paper. There really WAS "nothing (new) to see here".
Quote:
the associations and lobbyists and those who have entered government through the revolving door, or those who receive campaign contributions from them, to act as guardians for our public health.
Questioning authority, friends, means questioning the addition of toxic chemical additives to our water system. There are easier ways to address tooth decay than making everyone drink the kool aid. Um, I mean the fluoridated water. :waccosun:
It's these kind of conspiracy theory sky is falling sort of comments that make me skeptical of a given stance/perspective. As I said I'm on the fence but YOUR post made me skeptical of your position. It was too blatantly biased. Do you know that there's arsenic in our drinking water? And chlorine? And lead? And dozens of other trace toxins? Chlorine is extremely toxic, and it's even added to the water! Why are you okay with this? You realize there are other, less risky methods to purify water, right? How can you accept chlorine being added to the water? Maybe because it's been demonstrated to be completely safe when kept below a certain concentration? Hmmmm.... Maybe we should strive for something like that with fluoridation, instead of just blindly saying NO! NEVER!
I keep seeing all these references to scientific evidence that fluoridation of water is dangerous, yet I've never seen any of these scientific papers (except for the Grandjean paper, which gets lots of undue attention.) Can someone please post any kind of legitimate, quality scientific research done on this topic?
Finally, I'm curious, who has a financial vested interest in fluoridating our water? That's an honest question.
Real (e.g. well-done) SCIENCE
How does the old saying go? "If you want something done right, do it yourself"...
Just to show I'm not biased against the anti-fluoridation camp (or the pro-camp for that matter), here is an example of not only a NEW (really new, not a re-hash of old papers, and really new as in to be published next month) study, it's from a respected journal in (gasp!) the appropriate area of study (toxicology), AND it shows excellent lack of bias (results are conflicting, with an excellent discussion afterwards.)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...00483X14000249
"Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats." A. Martín-Pardillos, Toxicology, April 2014
I'm not going to give away the ending, but suffice to say I think many of you will find this study's results very interesting. If I write here what the findings are then people might not read it for themselves, which would be a shame. It's heavy stuff; the target audience is professional toxicologists and biologists. Skip to the discussion section and ignore the "big words" if you like. The message is still there, even if you don't bother looking up "osteochondrogenic transdifferentiation of cells". :-)
Re: PD Should read the SCIENCE before accusing Sebastopol of hysteria: Big Fluoride News
Thank you for sharing that link.....
Oh, Joy!
Now we can get all these neuro-toxins in one fine industrial waste byproduct - hydrofluosilicic acid -
that costs thousands of dollars for the phosphate fertilizer companies to dump at the toxic dump sites;
Follow the slight of hand that has allowed instead for the dumpers to be paid by US, the American people
As these toxic chemicals are being forced upon community after community across the US, in sham hearings.
Mercury, lead, arsenic, and other nerve toxins are contaminants resulting from the process...
Remember when Nero fiddled while Rome burned?
Rome burned because their brains were riddled with lead from the aqueducts. It took centuries to determine.
Surely those who expressed concern about poisons in the aqueducts then were laughed at -
Just as we are now. Yet they were right.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
Re: Where that article "mentioned" fluoride
For the answer to your question, "who has a vested interest in fluoridation" please read THE FLUORIDE DECEPTION, by investigative journalist Christopher Bryson. Amazing book. Then lets talk
!:thumbsup:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by seenhear:
I think I made it clear that I read the whole article. The point I made that you are focusing on is that the article was only barely about fluoridation, ...
Re: Why Does the Press Democrat Continually Insult Sebastopol and Even Lie About Us?
Thank you Barry, and to all who offered gratitude,
I have written many such letters to local papers, which have gone unpublished; despite our credentials!
Leaning toward WACCO - with much appreciation...:waccosun:
Sincerely, Karilee & Dr. Rich Shames
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by haloshames:
...As a Harvard educated MD and an RN, PhD with 8 books to our names, our last three thyroid books discuss the clear and obvious dangers to thyroid patients of this very questionable process!
There is too much to say here, but suffice it that there truly are no good studies on hydrofluosilicic acid,
which was substituted for sodium fluoride after the abandonment of the twin cities Michigan studies in the 50's. ...
Karilee Shames RN, PhD
Richard Shames MD
Proudly Sebastopol
Re: Why Does the Press Democrat Continually Insult Sebastopol and Even Lie About Us?
Look, I'm not sure if I agree with you or not. I'm still on the fence. But your posts are also a little too much of "Listen to ME! I have a PhD and my partner went to Harvard!" I don't care. Your tone makes me doubt your claims; "though dost protest too much" if you know what I mean. That aside, there were a couple of blatant exaggerations in your post that even I caught, and I have not done much research on this topic at all. If you exaggerate facts or misrepresent them, it hurts your cause. One of the best ways to convince people is not with inflammatory fear-inducing hyperbolic claims, but rather with a balanced, unbiased presentation of facts. Let the facts (results from peer-reviewed scientific research) speak for themselves. Don't tell people what to think (then you're as bad as your opposition) given them information and let them think for themselves. If they don't understand the information let them ask questions.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by haloshames:
Someone needs to supply copies of Christopher Bryson's investigative journalism book
THE FLUORIDE DECEPTION, to whomever wrote this piece about us, plus to ALL members of the council considering fluoridation locally.
No thanks. These sorts of books are nearly always extremely biased, as the author is under no-one's scrutiny to present facts as facts rather than bending the facts to their whim, mis-leading the reader to make the author's conclusions rather than his/her own.
Quote:
If excess fluoride (waters are naturally fluoridated) is put in nearby waters, we are all at risk,
especially "seniors"... 26% of menopausal women have a thyroid issue; many more develop them as they age.
Honest question: is there strong evidence that adult thyroid function is affected by fluoride? I have seen papers about children's thyroid function; I have not seen any yet about adults (again I've not done much research). Can you provide some peer-reviewed scientific references (not books)? I know that thyroid function is somewhat dependent on iodine (that's one reason we eat iodized salt) and that fluoride easily displaces iodine due to it's smaller atomic mass. This gives an obvious hypothesis that fluoride would adversely affect thyroid function at any age, but that's just a hypothesis. More obvious hypotheses have been disproved; human physiology is quite complex.
Quote:
snip, snip...
The ADA is being directed by its major funders, successful businesses who build dental schools,
and in exchange, they want to continue to be able to dump their toxic waste byproducts into our drinking water;
all in the name of helping the poorest children.
Do we have proof, or even evidence that this is true, or is this a hypothesis, too?
Quote:
Calling us "communists" does not negate their despicable gluttony.
No one called anyone a communist. Quite the opposite: the opinion author claimed that Sebastopolians might think that fluoridation of SoCo drinking water is a "communist plot". If s/he thinks you might be fearful of a communist plot, wouldn't it follow then that s/he thinks you are anything BUT communist?
Quote:
As a Harvard educated MD and an RN, PhD with
YAWN....
BTW, that's a misleading statement. Richard did undergrad at Harvard, his MD is from Penn, which IMO is equally impressive as an MD from Harvard. So the fact that you misrepresented this makes you seem disingenuous to me. You could have just covered both bases and said "Ivy-League educated" or you could have not bragged at all, and just let the knowledge you share with us stand for itself.
Quote:
There is too much to say here, but suffice it that there truly are no good studies on hydrofluosilicic acid,
Then why do you keep harping on it? How do you know that it doesn't break down into less harmful (or more harmful) constituents? My oppinion is that you and others who keep emphasizing "hydrofluorosilicic acid" do so because it sounds more scary than just saying "fluoride." Sure they may not be using "medical grade" NaF, but if there are "no good studies" then how do you know of what you speak?
Quote:
which was substituted for sodium fluoride after the abandonment of the twin cities Michigan studies in the 50's.
Oooh, what a cliff hanger! Do tell us more. What did who abandon in 1950's Michigan? Oh, and I don't know how many areas, but Sodium Fluoride is still listed as an additive used to fluoridate public drinking water in some areas of the US.
Quote:
What is known is that they
They? They who? They what?
Quote:
contain mercury, lead, and other harmful pollutants, lowering IQ by 10 points in studies of children in China
No, the study (as weak as it was) clearly claimed an average drop of 7 IQ points. Again with the chicken-little exaggerations. I already commented a lot on those papers, but they neglected (or swept aside without good justification) MANY potential confounding factors that could have affected IQ. There was a statistical correlation, there was no causation established or even hypothesized.
Quote:
causing increased osteosarcoma in young males, and it goes on.
Yes, indeed it does go on, with lots of details you left out. Let's review the American Cancer Society's take on that EXACT research (spread across three studies) shall we?
Quote:
A partial report of a study from the Harvard School of Public Health, published in 2006, found that exposure to higher levels of fluoride in drinking water was linked to a higher risk of osteosarcoma in boys but not in girls. However, researchers linked to the study noted that early results from a second part of the study did not appear to match those of the report. They therefore advised caution in interpreting the results.
The second part of the Harvard study, published in 2011, compared the fluoride levels in bones near tumors in people with osteosarcoma to the levels in people with other types of bone tumors. The researchers found no difference between the fluoride levels in the two groups.
Two more recent studies have compared the rates of osteosarcoma in areas with higher versus lower levels of fluoridation in Ireland and the United States. Neither study found an increased risk of osteosarcoma in areas of water fluoridation.
Next I suppose you'll just tell us that the American Cancer Society is in the pocket of big-business and their polluting ways.
Quote:
The international research against it is massive. The EU banned it long ago, as have most civilized nations.
But leave it to us (U.S.) to find a way to dump industrial waste products into the water,
And then link it to patriotism...only in America.
Link it to patriotism? Who's doing that?
Quote:
Our medical offices are filled with Marin & Sonoma patients struggling against slowed thyroid function;
one of the major thyroid antagonists - besides chloride - is fluoride.
Maybe your offices are flooded with people complaining of thyroid problems because you ADVERTISE yourselves as experts in wholistic care for thyroid dysfunction. If your practice was a standard general medicine practice, not touting any one specialty in particular, AND you were flooded with a disproportionate number of thyroid complaints, that would be interesting. A thyroid-specialty practice getting lots of thyroid patients? Wow, BIG NEWS!
That aside, are you now implying that we should also stop chlorinating our drinking water? Maybe your patients' thyroids will benefit from that, but the resulting innundation of giardiasis and similar water-born GI afflictions on normal medical practices and emergency rooms would probably not be a good thing.
Quote:
Past Surgeon Gen. C. Everett Koop should be held accountable for suggesting that fluoridation is one of our top accomplishments. Unless he was totally naive. Then he should not have been in charge of our health.
Why do we care?
We have spent the past 40 years educating our patients to do their homework,
to understand their delicate thyroid imbalances; and how they show up in our bodies.
We also encourage them to understand potential causes;
to fight in their communities against excess greed
Masquerading as patriotism and caring.
Name-calling is what is done when the facts are not on their side.
But this is simply not appropriate when it involves our health!
We are the ones who must speak out, OR - like canaries in the mines - we will pay the price for this deception.
Karilee Shames RN, PhD
Richard Shames MD
Proudly Sebastopol
That's great. I like the sound of your philosophy/mission for your medical practice. Unfortunately the opposite came through in your post. The way I read your post, I'd say you should practice what you preach more. Based on NONE of the things you have highlighted, I'm tending to lean toward the opinion that drinking water fluoridation is probably not a good idea. But posts like yours drive me nuts and make me suspicious of your claims; and based on the private messages I've received, I'm not the only one these kind of posts scare away.
