Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
Yes, I think a lot of people do not give others the freedom to make their own choices. It often shows itself as "I just want you to do the right thing because I care about you." Read as "you should act just like me for I am obviously more evolved than you." The topper is when they solemnly look at you and say "I'll pray for you." People have their own reasons for making the choices they make. Can't know or judge what's in another's heart. And I'll pray for you...
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Posted in reply to the post by hummingbird:
Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? ...
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
I think we should all go back to vilifying Efren instead of going on with this which is sounding more and more like an attack on one woman who has a different point of view
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
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Posted in reply to the post by meherc:
I think we should all go back to vilifying Efren instead of going on with this which is sounding more and more like an attack on one woman who has a different point of view
attack?? pretty much all the posts have patiently gone over and over the same ground - that these circles do harm - and tried to point out that the O.P.s defenses seem to deflect rather than address the points the commenters have been raising. Why post here if that kind of conversation is considered out of bounds? Or, more to the point, why keep it going?
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Yes, I think a lot of people do not give others the freedom to make their own choices.
and that's kind of infuriating, I must say. What is happening here is she's not being given endorsement of her point of view. Why make it an oppressor thing? not one post that I see here even hints that people who want to be in circles should be stopped. It's all about education (which is not the same as forced indoctrination!) and questioning the validity of different perspectives.
not that I'm against vilifying Efren, though. Is he starting circles now too??
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
I'm curious about how we don't give others the freedom to make their own choices. Who among us has that power? When my friends or acquaintances have asked me "What should I do, or what's the "right" thing to do?" (And believe me, I've had people, especially woman, ask this question a lot in my life.) My response goes something like this "The right thing to do is what you want to do. The "right" way is "your" way. I'm happy to share any information that I might have, so that you might make a more informed choice. But I won't take responsibility for telling you what to do."
My perspective is to empower people to take the responsibility of making their own choice. This is one of the best ways to begin to trust ourselves. We may make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them, but to rely on another person to tell us what and how to do something, can be an avoidance of responsibility. Taking classes or being tutored, or one of the many other ways we may choose to learn something, is different than just asking someone, "What should I do?".
So, maybe we can begin another conversation about "responsibility" and "self trust". How do we develop these in ourselves and our children? I gave my childen a lot of freedom. I never had to get them out of bed to go to school. I got them each a clock alarm and they were responsible for getting themselves up. If they were late to school, they had to deal with the consequences. I don't recall that ever happening. Another thing I did when they were teens, starting to go out at night, was not give them a "kurfew". I just thought about how annoying it would be for me to have to constantly watch the clock while I'm having a great time. What a drag! I asked where they were going, with whom, and about what time did they think they might be home. They never came home past 1am. My ex husband would wait up frantically worried, until they got home. I went to bed, and slept like a baby.
I always let them know that I trusted them to make wise choices, and if they didn't they would feel the consequences, although usually not from me.
I was warned about the "terrible teens", but I never paid much attention to it, and my kids were never in any kind of trouble, and didn't do drugs, even though I introduced them to an education on cannabis that went against what they were being told in school. We had a great relationship then, and still do, now that they're in their 50's with their own children. They've shared appreciation for the way they were raised, and said now they know what a tough responsibility parenting is. That's all I've got for now. Open, as always, for comments, discussion, and various perceptions of community members.
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Posted in reply to the post by meherc:
Yes, I think a lot of people do not give others the freedom to make their own choices. It often shows itself as "I just want you to do the right thing because I care about you." Read as "you should act just like me for I am obviously more evolved than you." The topper is when they solemnly look at you and say "I'll pray for you." People have their own reasons for making the choices they make. Can't know or judge what's in another's heart. And I'll pray for you...
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
I suppose that you might choose to view the Gifting Circles group differently. Here's my view: you start by paying an entry fee of $5000, which is merely the equivalent of a club membership fee, and it allows you to associate with other women in a private members-only club. As a member, you will get to define yourself as something waiting to be eaten, you might possibly be paid back for the membership fee plus more (but also might never get back anything at all), and the whole purpose of the group seems to be for you to recruit new members (who are going to be defined as something to be eaten), convince them to recruit, and thereby "evolve" into something that sounds like it might be preferable, but is really also just something that will eventually be eaten. Joining the club is voluntary, just send your $5000 payment and come to our first meeting. You'll be on the dinner menu, listed as an appetizer.
Um........ ok? Seriously?
I just don't think I could recommend joining, and still keep a straight face while dong so.
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
Your humor is refreshing!
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Posted in reply to the post by MissElaineE.:
I suppose that you might choose to view the Gifting Circles group differently. Here's my view: you start by paying an entry fee of $5000,...
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
The problem with her point of view is that it's lacking any real experience. She indicates that something's great, that she has no real knowledge of. I can look at someone on the street and say "that guy is wonderful", but if I don't know him at all, what would be missing from this picture?
In my opinion, it's an illogical statement, based on nothing. Would you want to meet him based on my uninformed perspective? And beyond that, if several women knew him to be a liar and a cheat, and told you so, who would you be likely to believe? The answer doesn't really matter; it's just a comparison of the similar elements involved in this discussion. Anyone can have a point of view, and most do, but normally it's either based on experience or blind prejudice.
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Posted in reply to the post by meherc:
I think we should all go back to vilifying Efren instead of going on with this which is sounding more and more like an attack on one woman who has a different point of view
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
What??? Are you referring to my post? I don't get what you're replying to. It was a stab at humour when things were getting nasty but your comment has nothing to do with what I said anyway. Perhaps you pushed the wrong button?
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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:
The problem with her point of view is that it's lacking any real experience. She indicates that something's great, that she has no real knowledge of. I can look at someone on the street and say "that guy is wonderful", but if I don't know him at all, what would be missing from this picture?
In my opinion, it's an illogical statement, based on nothing. Would you want to meet him based on my uninformed perspective? And beyond that, if several women knew him to be a liar and a cheat, and told you so, who would you be likely to believe? The answer doesn't really matter; it's just a comparison of the similar elements involved in this discussion. Anyone can have a point of view, and most do, but normally it's either based on experience or blind prejudice.
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
Whatever you're talking about, your comment itself sounds pretty unkind, not a reasonable exchange of ideas.
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Posted in reply to the post by meherc:
What??? Are you referring to my post? I don't get what you're replying to. It was a stab at humour when things were getting nasty but your comment has nothing to do with what I said anyway. Perhaps you pushed the wrong button?
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
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Posted in reply to the post by meherc:
What??? Are you referring to my post? I don't get what you're replying to. It was a stab at humour when things were getting nasty but your comment has nothing to do with what I said anyway. Perhaps you pushed the wrong button?
Marilyn, Shandi's comment was not directed at you. It was a response to Hummingbird. Shandi was referring to the fact that Hummingbird has been praising pyramid schemes like the Women's "Wisdom" Circle while claiming never to have participated in one. Since Hummingbird has manifestly also not learned how the mathematics work, she's expressing vehement opinions on the basis of no apparent knowledge. This, I think, was Shandi's message; it had nothing to do with you.
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
Hmmm..... Well I have heard of many of these schemes over the years and they are all based on a basic pyramid scheme. The general idea is it is an exclusive ( aren't you lucky I decided to let you into our private circle) thing that will allow you to make an unbelievable amount of $. The catch is this only works for those who join early on and who don't care that the money they get is from the less fortunate late joiners who never get anything. They depend on an ever expanding "select" crowd that eventually tops out and the folks who weren't in on the beginning are the ones left out.
Each scheme has a rational detailing why their pyramid scheme is NOT one! It is frustrating to see folks lining up to be fleeced and who have bought into it. Even if they do get some money they do it on the unwitting wallets of those they con into joining. It is the opposite of sisterhood or community, and is so very very common, just changing the targeted groups and names. Please consider carefully whether you want to help hurt others and yourself. Even if you gain $, you do it with the certainty others are suffering loss for it, and that is also something you might not want to "gain" on your conscience............ Wishing Peace, and real Community to us all
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
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Posted in reply to the post by peacetree:
...Even if you gain $, you do it with the certainty others are suffering loss for it, and that is also something you might not want to "gain" on your conscience............
That's the bottom line here. This is a ZERO SUM GAME. For every dollar "manifested" there is a dollar less in some other "sister's" purse. Yes, some may choose to re-invest or sponsor someone else, but every dollar that is taken out of the circle (ie spent) will lead to dollar that someone "loses".
The Women's Gifting Circle has been compared to "investing" in the stock market. While there is some truth to that, the stock market has both zero sum attributes (bidding the price of a stock up and down), there is also non-zero sum attribute. The value of the underlying asset does change in real terms. Just think if you owned 1share of Apple Computer 10 years ago. Besides the stock price rising, the value of that tiny piece of Apple Computer Corp is worth a bunch more! Value has been created, not just reshuffled/transferred. The Women's Gifting Circle may create (and destroy) some level of social value, but it does not create any financial value.
Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux
YUP!
AND, when you invest in the stock market you KNOW the risk you're taking. You understand that you can lose a lot of money or gain a lot of money. But with these women circles, you're not told up front what you're joining. You are lied to. It's an intricately built scam where every question & detail has been skillfully hidden through tidy and articulate new age language. They purposely do not use "investment language". And money is actually rarely spoken about within the support group unless someone is referring to "manifesting their gift". All the focus is put upon the personal growth and sisterhood. They say the money is secondary, just the "icing on the cake", so that we think this couldn't possibly be about greed and money. It doesn't appear anything like the stock market, so many women honestly don't know that we are gambling our money away and prepetuating the lie to our closest friends....
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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
