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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Patrick, Dixon,
You approach this matter as if it has somehow been proven that in no part of the incident in question Olembe was detained (albeit briefly, professionally and politely/respectfully, so far as we know) because he is a young black man. I've seen no evidence that confirms that his race did not play a significant role.
Chief Wheeler's account leaves out any details that would confirm or deny this. We do not have a transcript of the convo between the dispatcher and the patrol officer, nor between the complainant and dispatcher. We do not know what the exact description given by the complainant was. All we have is Chief Wheeler's word and a generalized account at that.
I am not accusing him in this instance of lying. I am saying that he gives no specifics to support his claims. I suppose it could be argued that because he is the Chief, he's respected and liked, that we should take him at his word.
But here's the rub, I've dealt with the police in many different instances. For the most part, cordially and respectfully, even in demonstration / protest situations where the interaction was the most intense, when we were in conflict. I've been Police Liaison for numerous public demonstrations.
I have also run from the police and defied them in some instances during demonstrations. I have been struck, several times, by them in a few of those situations (not recently, not for decades) I have been maced, tear-gassed and waterhosed by them (also long ago).
I can say with absolute certainty, that some police, sometimes, for reasons of denial and attempting to maintain a positive public image when their actions have been egregious and illegal, lie. They've done it to my face, they've done it in public pronouncements.
So, whatever you think of the "appropriateness" or "proper placement of remarks and their articulation in the Waccoville File Cabinet" (Patrick, please... Waccotalk instead of Wacco Community? Really?) or the tight "logic" of someone's argument, I would say the facts in this matter are not completely clear.
Until we know what the exact description was for the possible perp, what the relative location of the vandalized car was (no we don't need to know the name of the complainant / purported witness) vs. Olembe's location when spotted by the patrol officer. We have different accounts of this. Sabrina's, "other end of town". Weaver's, "in the vicinity, spotted by the complainant". And what was the exact timing sequence of things? When was the first call, the first response, the second call ID'ing a possible perp, the officer seeing Olembe, the officer stopping Olembe. When and what was the followup with the complainant. What other actions were taken that evening with regard to this incident? What was the nature of the vandalism? When was it noticed? Was an information report taken on Olembe and where does that information end up? For how long? Who has access to it?
I haven't revisited Chief Weaver's account, I'm writing from days, weeks, old memory, this is a discussion, not a trial and no one is paying me to do this, nor have I attended law school or passed the bar!
And finally, a transcript of the dispatcher conversations with the complainant and the officer would need to be verified by an independent and trusted source. Proper redacting of personal information would be fine, as long as the locations and descriptions and timing sequence were sufficiently clear and reliable.
Cause I can say with certainty, sometimes (emphasis on sometimes), some cops (emphasis on some) make shit up to protect their own asses, or the asses of their colleagues. I am not saying this is the case here. I am saying it's just as possible as any other possibility.
And I'm also saying that no one here, save perhaps Chief Weaver if he's (you're) reading this, is in a position to know. OK, also the Patrol Officer, the Dispatcher, the SPD clerks and other police I suppose. Just as I'm saying that no one here (save the Chief) is able to definitively say that Olembe was not racially profiled, based on the available information / evidence we've seen on this thread.
Where the differences among us lie is a propensity to take the police at their word and doubt the word of those who have come into contact with them, to doubt those who are not happy about what happened (in this case Sabrina, indirectly, I spoke briefly with Olembe at a party on Saturday, he is not particularly engaged in this matter, so we're talking about the participants in this discussion, not him).
Patrick, you have no more solid proof that racial profiling did not occur, than Sabrina has that it definitively did. Granted, it is impossible to prove a negative. But without evidence, clear and definitive from the raw transcript of the active participants at the time, based on a verified contemporaneous record (not someone's summary of it, even the most unimpeachable source) that racial profiling did not occur, if someone has the opinion it did, based on their experience, it is kind of high handed and patronizing to assert they do not have the right to that opinion, should apologize for expressing it and are morally obligated to reverse themselves because they lack hard evidence.
By the way, we all know that "official records" can be tampered with. Also, that a cop who made a stop that turns out to be controversial is just as capable as anyone of giving an account that is the most self-justifying, while still full of accurate statements of fact. We all tend to put the best light on a situation where our own actions have been called into question. That's why without independent witnesses, recorded evidence, etc. even well documented claims are subject to question if the only documentation is the account of the primary party.
Famous incident in question to make this point. Was Rodney Hill beaten so brutally because he was Black? Or because he had run, was drunk, was resisting, not passive and "fighting back"? It's all there on the videotape in "Black & White", right? It should be easy to decide? Right? I would say it's probably both (Black and "uncooperative") but then the question arises, was he uncooperative because he is Black? And had a history of experiences with the cops that led him to run and then resist?
In fact, the response, "without clear proof you are not justified in calling it Racism", is an element of the very structural / institutional racism that subtly informs such occurrences and this discussion. Institutional racism is not an attitude, it's not documented verbal expression, it is not overt prejudice or behavior. It is the relative difference in power that different ethnic, racial groups have, inherited from the past, which make those with privilege oblivious to the subtle and clear reality of racial difference in our society. And those without privilege acutely aware that they lack it.
Concretely, that means a cop may be the most egalitarian, racially tolerant person in the world, but is still more likely to detain non-whites vs. whites, poor vs. well-off (although in that instance it's institutionalized classism, except when it's both) etc. because of the nature of our society. That means a lot of things, a big one being it is not a question of personal behavior or morality, as much as it is a question of the very fabric of our culture, our social structure.
When complaints/criticisms such as Sabrina's original one are met with dismissal, denial, criticism because she is seen as making a personal attack on the individual officer, rather than the system and our collective social arrangement, that shows that those who are responding in that manner have no clue as to the nature of institutionalized racism, have not learned what it means, how it works, etc.
Honestly, Patrick, Imagery, Edie and Dixon (I may have left out a few names, like I said I'm not writing a scholarly article or a legal brief here) how many of you have read the resources first referenced when this thread started?
How many of you are familiar with the work of Tim Wise and many others (Wise is in fact late to the party, I learned this stuff in the late seventies, long before he was part of the White Anti-Racist scene, but he provides a good overview and is working on/in the contemporary social environment).
How many Police Officers are given racial sensitivity training, not by other cops, but by experts in the field? It's pretty much de rigueur in the American workplace to give diversity trainings that address gender, ethnicity and race. Trainings that emphasize the law and consequences for violating it, as well as H.R. disciplinary procedures for lesser violations, when it come to discriminatory behavior and expression. Few of those trainings go down to the level of the history, politics and economics of discrimination (overt, covert and institutional). Actually none in my experience.
They tend to address the level of appearance and attitude, procedure and consequences. Which is part of the problem. Once you understand that Racism, Sexism, Classism and other forms of treating people as "The Other" are not only about what people think, say and do, but are in more profound and intractable ways woven in the very essence of our culture, you'll be in a position to understand the statistics that many of us have referenced here.
The most recent being a headline that I read yesterday that Black Americans (U.S.) have suffered far more in the last three years economically, than other racial/ethnic groups. I believe the phrase was, "Gains have been wiped out."
That's not because they have been targeted overtly by employers and business partners for "being black" (at least not for the most part) that's because of the structural aspects of coming from a group that was traumatized, marginalized, exploited, disenfranchised, stripped of culture/language/religion/dignity, brutalized and tortured, murdered, raped and beaten, for generations. Such trauma has generational consequences (of all kinds, emotional, economic, familial, educational, cultural, communal, etc.) that most people not from those people have no clue how deep and intractable are those wounds.
Similar things can be said about American Indians, American Latinos, some Asian groups, some European groups (such as Jewish people from Eastern and Central Europe) and of course there are significant differences within and between different populations. Privileged and underprivileged within each one.
I'll end with this point, that every person reading this needs to understand. If you are White you have no clue what it is like to be Black, Latino, Asian, Indian etc.. And vice versa, and inter versa. Do not think for a second because you've had an unpleasant encounter with a cop, that your experience is the same as others from different backgrounds and life experiences.
We can try to understand. We can talk about it, read about it, etc. But experience is not directly transferable. So don't act like you know, cause you don't. And when you do act like you know, no matter how well meaning you may be, it's offensive to those who live in different skins, and to those like myself, who have learned the difference between compassion and empathy, and experiential understanding.
Maybe this will help. Most enlightened Caucasian males have learned to avoid claiming that they understand, know, the experience of being a woman, even women of their own class and ethnicity. So why would you assume that you have a clue as to what it would be like to not be White?
And Patrick et al, I'm not saying you've said do understand what it's like. I'm saying you write as if you think you do and are therefore entitled to make judgments and pronouncements as if you do.
What's my proof? Your claims that Racism can't be easily proven unless it's overt and documented. Your argument is that to call out racial profiling requires clear evidence and the burden of evidence is on the accuser, not the alleged perpetrator.
It's just as reasonable to say that in a Racist society (which in general you have agreed is the case) that when a nineteen year old black man is stopped at midnight on a public main thoroughfare skipping, whistling, singing and playing a Kalimba on a Saturday night, because he "fits the description", the burden of proof to assert he was not detained (however briefly) because of his Race and age, is on those who detained him.
And that proof needs to be detailed and specific (within reason and ensuring the appropriate privacy of others). A general summary of events without such evidence, even from a trusted source (a source with a clear interest in denying that racial profiling occurred) is not proof of anything.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Miles, you seem to be challenging Patrick and Dixon to prove a negative, in your first and final paragraphs. You probably know that's actually impossible.
It's my belief that most of the racism that still exists has gone so far underground and unconscious that it is difficult to ferret out and impossible to prove, at least unequivocally.
I don't know how to fight this, except within my own self.
But open to ideas.
kathy
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
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Posted in reply to the post by kpage9:
Miles, you seem to be challenging Patrick and Dixon to prove a negative, in your first and final paragraphs. You probably know that's actually impossible.
It's my belief that most of the racism that still exists has gone so far underground and unconscious that it is difficult to ferret out and impossible to prove, at least unequivocally.
I don't know how to fight this, except within my own self.
But open to ideas.
kathy
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Miles, I don't know how you have the time to elaborate as much as you do. I also want to encourage folks to check the previously mentioned websites. I'm including others here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege
Tim Wise: On White Privilege (video clip)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe...eature=related
https://www.timwise.org/
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
https://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
For a different perspective on news:
https://colorlines.com/archives/2011...mmer_jobs.html
https://colorlines.com
Googling "white privilege" gets over 4 million results.
It's important to keep the dialog going -- internally and in community.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
I don't even know where to start to say "thank you" Miles for your absolutely Clear and Concise description and really clean breakdown analysis, about what's going down on this thread, historically, currently, and progressively speaking. You really get to the point and give an excellent tie in with current awareness of institutionalized racism and the years and generations of trauma that people of color in this country have been through and still very much needs healing plus the ignorance and unconsciousness of the whites with privilege, though well meaning many may be. I am made conscious of it all the time raising two kids of color and being white.
I will never forget the time when one of my children was teased for being brown in a school full of white children- the teacher's solution was to have the children touch my child's skin to see that it was the same. My husband and I did not allow this when it was suggested by the unconscious white teacher.
It makes me sick how many times I've been with my kids watching them interact with some white adult who has no idea the horrified look on their face, and when I step in to help, when I see the kid's getting a hard time, the clear look of "relief" on their face when the person see's the kids are with me. Coincidentally, this attitude I've witnessed by whites has become more exaggerated as my kids became more teen / young adult; and how about the looks I get now standing with my grown kids and my husband. The horrified looks are worse now that they are older than when they were little ones - this raises my fears of racial profiling, such as those who could just look at them and call the cops; then the cops who may do the wrong thing. I'm sorry, but even though I know there are a lot of really nice good cops out there, and I've met them, had to call on them, the truth is I'm more terrified by cops than not, probably because of the "power" they represent, i.e. man with a gun.
One of the most important things we can do to help to put an end to racism, which includes the racial profiling and the racial institutionalization we've been talking about here, is for white people, the original perpetrators in this country, to take more responsibility to become aware of it in themselves, like Kathy begins to suggest. Thank you Attila for directing everyone to so many great resources!
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Posted in reply to the post by zenekar:
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
Patrick, Dixon,
You approach this matter as if it has somehow been proven that in no part of the incident in question Olembe was detained (albeit briefly, professionally and politely/respectfully, so far as we know) because he is a young black man.
Miles, you and I have been substantially simpatico over the years, and I know you're capable of proper reasoning. But lately I've seen you lapse unaccountably a couple of times into elementary fallacies. For instance, your statement above (at least as it applies to me, and maybe to Patrick too), is an example of the straw figure fallacy. You grossly mischaracterize my position, even though I've made it clear that that's not my position, then attack the phony position as if it were mine. Get it straight, Miles--I've never said nor implied that it's been proven that racism wasn't involved in this incident. Quite the contrary; I've explicitly stated repeatedly that we just don't know.
You then waste a tremendous amount of time (including mine) by ranting at length about how racist our society is as if that's news. Again, I've explicitly said that myself at least once or twice in this thread, but that doesn't stop you from insulting me (among others) by pontificating self-righteously on the subject as if you think we're such troglodytes that we don't already know it. Have you forgotten past threads in which I've taken flak for addressing the genocide, slavery and racism that are fundamental to our society? I thought we were allies; now I find myself (again) subjected to an undeserved ration of shit from you.
In trying to make sense of your bizarre post, I can only assume that you've decided that, because racism is so fundamental a part of USAmerican culture, therefore we can assume that every time a cop questions a guy who happens to be black, racism is involved. Get a grip, Miles. You're intelligent enough and educated enough to know that that simplistic, absolutistic reasoning is just stupid. Life's not that simple.
With apologies for the redundancy to those who actually read my posts carefully the first time, and to dispel your considerable confusion, Miles, here's a summary of the positions I've already expressed clearly and consistently:
1. Yes, the USA (like all the colonial countries), is fundamentally racist, historically and up through the present.
2. Yes, the police as a social institution have performed the function of "keeping the niggers down".
3. It does not follow from this that all cops are racist, nor that a cop's simply stopping a guy who happens to be black and asking him some questions is evidence of racism.
4. In the absence of near-certain evidence, it's inappropriate to make public accusations of wrongdoing (as opposed to bringing up the possibility that it may have occurred). This is basic civility, based on the Golden Rule, and if you reject this idea, then you don't ever get to complain if you're falsely accused of something.
When you attack someone publicly on the basis of gross distortions of their clearly stated positions, you make an ass of yourself and risk turning allies into enemies. Go back and re-read my posts on this thread--#s 26, 38, 61, 68 and 101 (don't worry, they're not nearly as long as yours) so you can remind yourself of what my real positions are. Then you'll want to publicly acknowledge that you attacked me on the basis of gross distortions of my positions--and an apology would be nice. And it would also be nice if you would develop the habit of reading people's posts more carefully before you come screaming at them with self-righteous, more-progressive-than-thou, wrongheaded attacks.
Sheeeeshhhh!!!!
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Dixon,
I haven't screamed anything.
The tenor of your posts in this thread, in regard to the issues raised here, is to deny, or to support others who deny, that there has been any proof there was racial motivation on the part of the officer who briefly detained Olembe.
If that was not part of what you have said here, then maybe you need to be more explicit. Because that's the impression I get. You said many other things that I agree with, I was not addressing them.
The point of my last post was to say to anyone taking the position, "Oh great, racial profiling in this instance is off the table because Chief Weaver says so.", was that without access to the original record, including salient details, no one here is in a position to claim whether or not racial profiling occurred. Patrick clearly took that position (the position I just put in quotes). Your "gratitude" support and other comments implied that you agreed with him. Hence my including your name.
This is the second, perhaps the third time you've gone to personal insult and extreme huffiness with me here on waccobb. I don't really care. And I leave it to anyone who does to reread the record and decide who the champion of hyperbole is here, you or me. (If these first four paragraphs are insufficient grist for your outrage mill, keep reading, my last thirteen paragraphs are also directed primarily at you.)
Zenekar/Attila, I have the time because I'm unemployed and care deeply about this and related issues of social justice. And have been engaged in these struggles for over three decades. And I probably wasted two or three hours yesterday afternoon composing a post that I've been thinking about for a few days.
Kpage9, in rereading my first and last paragraph in my previous post I don't see where I'm asking or demanding that Patrick or Dixon prove anything, let alone a negative. I am saying that they can't prove a negative, that negative being that racial profiling did not occur in this instance, based on the available information. That's not saying they should prove anything. It is saying that what they appear to think has been proved, has not.
These issues are best discussed in person. The lack of affect and immediacy lead to the kind of misunderstandings and resentments that we see here, especially from those who do not take being criticized and contradicted, even clearly, politely and respectfully, well.
Dixon, perhaps you think everything written in my previous post was directed at you personally. It was not. Try rereading it and only include the extant paragraphs that start with an address to you and Patrick (I think, in most instances, but I'm not going to reread something I reread at least five or six times before posting it twelve hours ago. By my clock it is now 5:00 a.m. I need to move on) and any subsequent paragraphs that follow with the same theme, and leave out the ones where I change to a different specific topic. You might find that it makes more sense in the context of your remarks in this thread.
(What follows is mostly directed at you, Dixon. The indicator of that, other than this parenthetical note, is that I use "you" rather than "one" or some other non-second person pronoun. Also the thematic content is specific in its consistency.)
I've done textual exegesis, I find it works best in a study group. I first did it in bible studies in high school. Later in Marxist reading groups. Doing it in an internet text messaging thread, seems to be a recipe for frustration, misinterpretation and perceived insult. (Plus it's highly inefficient and time consuming. Not something I'm interested in. Not here on waccobb. Not anywhere on the internet.)
None of which I intend here (frustration, misinterpretation and perceived insult, those are) at least not in any conscious way that I am aware of. May I suggest that, based on my experience with our several contretemps, that you suffer from a very thin skin? At least in this context? (That context being waccobb.net) May I suggest that you ask for understanding before leaping to the worst possible and most insulting to yourself conclusion in our exchanges here?
If you recall the brief participation of my friend Fred Dolan several years ago, before he left due to the limits and often inane aspects of the discussions here on waccobb, he, when things first started going south, mentioned the concept of, "The Charity Principle" in any discussion/debate/argument. That one might start by giving ones interlocutors the benefit of the doubt, that the most charitable interpretation of their remarks are the best starting point. (I consciously used "might" instead of "should" in this paragraph in an effort to avoid a patronizing, preaching, demanding, moralistic tone. How'd I do?)
Only when absolutely clear evidence of malice, insult, ignorance, etc. is provided is it then appropriate to respond as if those were the issues.
If I've directly accused you of anything in this thread, it's that you have shown (at least to me) that your concept of racism seems to mostly involve overt expressions of prejudice, as your preferred criteria for provable bias. Racial profiling is more an issue of institutionalized racism, where clear evidence based on the behavior of the authorities (or anyone) is seldom, if ever, available.
Your comments here have not clearly indicated (at least to me) that you are aware of the difference between overt prejudice and the nuances of systemic, institutionalized racism.
Instead of taking umbrage, another strategy would be to demonstrate how I am mistaken. Showing how you have expressed that difference and indicated your understanding. (Listing Post #'s in a voluminous thread doesn't cut it. If you want me to read specific text you've already written, either quote it, or repeat it. You might have noticed my repetition of themes and ideas here. That's because I try, as best as I can in these basically edited one-offs to not demand that my readers do any more work than they have to. Again, none of us is getting paid to be here, so far as I know.)
Or you could read up and indicate how you understand the subtle differences between expressed prejudice and assumed lack of bias within a system derived from, based upon and operating according to systemic bias and privilege. Protestations to the contrary, the tenor of your position here does not demonstrate that to me.
In fact, you, "fit the description", of those I've met many times over, those who protest that they're not biased at all and are outraged at the implication, all the while demanding proof that bias has taken place, or not, before they will countenance the complaints of those who perceive it. If you were hip to the extant theory of institutionalized racism, you would know that your response is the classic defense mechanism. There are other options besides outrage, denial and insult.
As for absolutist statements on my part, as a matter of practice I make overt efforts to avoid them. Are you confusing generalization with absolutism? If you were to reread me with that in mind, you might find another interpretation available to you. Assertion is not a claim to absolute truth. It is merely a way to express confidence and conviction. I assume all claims are subject to revision, criticism, correction, as sufficient evidence becomes available.
As for your demands and insults, I'll refrain from playing that game. Just as Patrick "hectoring" Sabrina for an apology to the SPD, how effective, both rhetorically and practically, do you think it is to demand apologies from those who have offended you? In my experience, not so much.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
I've seen no evidence that confirms that his race did not play a significant role.
Is this your standard for making public accusations? I have seen no evidence that you are not a shoplifter; I have owned retail business, and I have suffered the evil effects of shoplifting many times, and I know that many unemployed people shoplift, so if you visited my business and I later found something missing, you would presumably have no objection if I posted a thread accusing you of shoplifting, right? I know, not a strictly parallel case, but you get the idea. In our culture it is generally considered proper to have at least some evidence to back up an accusation before making it. Here there is none, except for a broad generalization applied to a particular case.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
All we have is Chief Wheeler's word and a generalized account at that.
Well, that and the account of the young man who was stopped, which corroborates the parts he had knowledge of, and the complete lack of evidence of any kind supporting the accusation.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
I am not accusing him in this instance of lying. I am saying that he gives no specifics to support his claims.
Since the accuser gives no specifics to support her accusation in the first place, the matter is somewhat moot. I have commented before that it is ironic that by claiming in this way her son was profiled, she is in fact profiling the officer.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
But here's the rub, I've dealt with the police in many different instances. For the most part, cordially and respectfully, even in demonstration / protest situations where the interaction was the most intense, when we were in conflict. I've been Police Liaison for numerous public demonstrations.
I have also run from the police and defied them in some instances during demonstrations. I have been struck, several times, by them in a few of those situations (not recently, not for decades) I have been maced, tear-gassed and waterhosed by them (also long ago).
I can say with absolute certainty, that some police, sometimes, for reasons of denial and attempting to maintain a positive public image when their actions have been egregious and illegal, lie. They've done it to my face, they've done it in public pronouncements.
So, whatever you think of the "appropriateness" or "proper placement of remarks and their articulation in the Waccoville File Cabinet" (Patrick, please... Waccotalk instead of Wacco Community? Really?) or the tight "logic" of someone's argument, I would say the facts in this matter are not completely clear.
Until we know what the exact description was for the possible perp, what the relative location of the vandalized car was (no we don't need to know the name of the complainant / purported witness) vs. Olembe's location when spotted by the patrol officer. We have different accounts of this. Sabrina's, "other end of town". Weaver's, "in the vicinity, spotted by the complainant". And what was the exact timing sequence of things? When was the first call, the first response, the second call ID'ing a possible perp, the officer seeing Olembe, the officer stopping Olembe. When and what was the followup with the complainant. What other actions were taken that evening with regard to this incident? What was the nature of the vandalism? When was it noticed? Was an information report taken on Olembe and where does that information end up? For how long? Who has access to it?
I haven't revisited Chief Weaver's account, I'm writing from days, weeks, old memory, this is a discussion, not a trial and no one is paying me to do this, nor have I attended law school or passed the bar!
And finally, a transcript of the dispatcher conversations with the complainant and the officer would need to be verified by an independent and trusted source. Proper redacting of personal information would be fine, as long as the locations and descriptions and timing sequence were sufficiently clear and reliable.
Cause I can say with certainty, sometimes (emphasis on sometimes), some cops (emphasis on some) make shit up to protect their own asses, or the asses of their colleagues. I am not saying this is the case here. I am saying it's just as possible as any other possibility.
And I'm also saying that no one here, save perhaps Chief Weaver if he's (you're) reading this, is in a position to know. OK, also the Patrol Officer, the Dispatcher, the SPD clerks and other police I suppose. Just as I'm saying that no one here (save the Chief) is able to definitively say that Olembe was not racially profiled, based on the available information / evidence we've seen on this thread.
Where the differences among us lie is a propensity to take the police at their word and doubt the word of those who have come into contact with them, to doubt those who are not happy about what happened (in this case Sabrina, indirectly, I spoke briefly with Olembe at a party on Saturday, he is not particularly engaged in this matter, so we're talking about the participants in this discussion, not him).
Patrick, you have no more solid proof that racial profiling did not occur, than Sabrina has that it definitively did. Granted, it is impossible to prove a negative. But without evidence, clear and definitive from the raw transcript of the active participants at the time, based on a verified contemporaneous record (not someone's summary of it, even the most unimpeachable source) that racial profiling did not occur, if someone has the opinion it did, based on their experience, it is kind of high handed and patronizing to assert they do not have the right to that opinion, should apologize for expressing it and are morally obligated to reverse themselves because they lack hard evidence.
I have already commented at some length about this kind of argument. You are demanding absolute proof of the falsity of an accusation for which there is no evidence of its truth. Show us the proof that you are not a shoplifter. And I did not say she had no right to hold the opinion, or to express that opinion, just that she had no right to state it as a fact.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
By the way, we all know that "official records" can be tampered with. Also, that a cop who made a stop that turns out to be controversial is just as capable as anyone of giving an account that is the most self-justifying, while still full of accurate statements of fact. We all tend to put the best light on a situation where our own actions have been called into question. That's why without independent witnesses, recorded evidence, etc. even well documented claims are subject to question if the only documentation is the account of the primary party.
Which is why it is fortunate that in this case we do have corroborating evidence, that of a particularly credible witness, that of the young man himself, who confirms the chief's account.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
In fact, the response, "without clear proof you are not justified in calling it Racism", is an element of the very structural / institutional racism that subtly informs such occurrences and this discussion.
Seriously? To me it is a basic element of fairness to require at least some kind of evidence before making such an accusation. Nobody as far as I can see is demanding clear proof, so this is a straw man argument. In this case there is no evidence at all.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
When complaints/criticisms such as Sabrina's original one are met with dismissal, denial, criticism because she is seen as making a personal attack on the individual officer, rather than the system and our collective social arrangement, that shows that those who are responding in that manner have no clue as to the nature of institutionalized racism, have not learned what it means, how it works, etc.
She did make a personal attack on the officer in the title of her post (at least by very strong implication if not absolutely explicitly). If she had said something like "My son was stopped on Main Street, and my experience with racism in our society made me conclude that he may have been profiled" then I would have no problem with the thread.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
(A lot more about racism on our society, ending with...) And Patrick et al, I'm not saying you've said do understand what it's like. I'm saying you write as if you think you do and are therefore entitled to make judgments and pronouncements as if you do.
What's my proof? Your claims that Racism can't be easily proven unless it's overt and documented. Your argument is that to call out racial profiling requires clear evidence and the burden of evidence is on the accuser, not the alleged perpetrator.
I am getting a little weary of being misquoted. I said no such thing. My sole objection here is the unsubstatiated allegation contained in the title. I stand by my contention that if you are going to accuse someone of a specific dereliction, you need to have actual evidence that the dereliction has actually been committed in this particular case. Otherwise state it as a general tendency. Is this so hard to understand?
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
It's just as reasonable to say that in a Racist society (which in general[/FONT][/SIZE] you have[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman] agreed is the case) that when a nineteen year old black man is stopped at midnight on a public main thoroughfare skipping, whistling, singing and playing a Kalimba on a Saturday night, because he "fits the description", the burden of proof to assert he was not detained (however briefly) because of his Race and age, is on those who detained him.
And that proof needs to be detailed and specific (within reason and ensuring the appropriate privacy of others). A general summary of events without such evidence, even from a trusted source (a source with a clear interest in denying that racial profiling occurred) is not proof of anything.
Again, substitute my unemployed people shoplifting example to see the absurdity of this statement.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
The point of my last post was to say to anyone taking the position, "Oh great, racial profiling in this instance is off the table because Chief Weaver says so." (...) Patrick clearly took that position (the position I just put in quotes).
For someone who demands actual quotes in support of responses to what you say, you are remarkably reckless with your own quoting. The use of quotation marks implies that you are quoting my actual words. Not only did I not say any such thing, I do not believe I even said anything that could construed to mean this.
How does this square with your
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
one might start by giving ones interlocutors the benefit of the doubt, that the most charitable interpretation of their remarks are the best starting point.
?
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
Just as Patrick "hectoring" Sabrina for an apology to the SPD
I am not aware of having hectored Sabrina. I expressed my opinion that the ethical course under the circumstances would be to apologize, and I disagreed with her continued assertion that she had no cause to do so. This is hectoring?
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
I have the time because I'm unemployed
Quick, someone find Miles a job. Unemployment is clearly affecting his thinking processes.
Patrick Brinton
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Patrick,
I never called for or demanded "absolute" proof of anything.
Here's what we know for certain. Olembe, a young black man was rousted by a Sebastopol patrolman around midnight a few Saturday's ago. He had not done anything wrong, was relatively unharmed, when his mother learned about it, it angered and otherwise upset her, she wrote a post asserting that he had been racially profiled.
An assertion is an opinion, whether it is explicitly written as one, or not.
When I use quotes, I may be quoting someone, but usually indicate that by a direct reference to the speaker/writer or by the context in which I use them. Quotation marks can also indicate irony.
The ways in which Olembe's account jibe with Chief Weaver's do not go to resolving the issue of racial profiling.
We do not know the exact nature of the complaint. We do not know the exact description of the suspect that was given by the witness. We do not know the exact proximity, temporal and spacial that Olembe was in when noticed by the police officer and rousted.
There are lots of potentially telling details that we do not know. So concluding that it has not been proven that racial profiling was involved, without sufficient information one way or another, is presumptuous. Not logical.
And if you were to have me rousted for entering your shop, leaving, having never been observed taking anything or otherwise acting in a suspicious manner, based solely on your knowledge that I am unemployed (gainfully, I won't be a '99'er until the end of next month, as far as I can tell) you would be economically profiling me. And if the report you gave to the police was, "I didn't see him do anything but item X is missing and I know he's unemployed.", and the police acted on that information by rousting me, they would be profiling me economically. I would hope they have enough training not to do so. I'm not volunteering for an experiment to find out.
The main idea that I want to emphasize in my responses here is that institutionalized racism, and other forms of discrimination, cannot be understood in terms of intent, overt, or even covert, bias and hatred. An official can be completely unbiased, even biased in favor of the underdog, but still function to enforce institutionalized bias.
And it's not solely a function of attitude, behavior, conscious or un, it's about structural limits and ways in which inequality are maintained by the very nature of the social system, the ways in which it works.
Many approaches to anti-racism, anti-homophobia, anti-sexism, anti-disabled, etc. focus on attitude, intent, overt behavior, inherited assumptions, etc. And that's a start. The theory of institutionalized discrimination goes deeper, to the ways in which we all are embedded in a system of enforced difference, which are deeper and independent of our volition, consciousness, attitudes.
This is hard for the basic rationalist to grasp. It's resisted because it's seen as nonsensical. Hence many of the replies here, such as yours. Read the literature, you might learn something. If, after reading it, you still want to dismiss it and its proponents such as myself as irrational, well, that's your prerogative. But doing so before having explored it, makes you the fool.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
Dixon, I haven't screamed anything.
Miles, I acknowledge that my use of the word "screaming" was an exaggeration. You did not scream; I was responding emotionally due to my extreme frustration at being subjected, once again, to an attack by you based on your gross distortion of my clearly stated positions. I apologize if my use of that word caused you any distress.
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The tenor of your posts in this thread, in regard to the issues raised here, is to deny, or to support others who deny, that there has been any proof there was racial motivation on the part of the officer who briefly detained Olembe.
Right you are, Miles. I deny that there has been one iota of proof expressed anywhere on this thread that "...there was racial motivation on the part of the officer who briefly detained Olembe." And here's some good news: this specific claim is readily resolved thusly: you either show one or more quotes that constitute evidence of such racial motivation, or you acknowledge that I'm right about the lack of such evidence. Fair enough? (And, just to be clear, let's agree that if someone calls the police and says that someone committed a crime and describes that person as being of a certain race, whether black, white, brown, etc., detaining someone of that description is not what we're calling "racial motivation"; we're talking about racism instead, okay?)
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The point of my last post was to say to anyone taking the position, "Oh great, racial profiling in this instance is off the table because Chief Weaver says so.", was that without access to the original record, including salient details, no one here is in a position to claim whether or not racial profiling occurred. Patrick clearly took that position (the position I just put in quotes). Your "gratitude" support and other comments implied that you agreed with him. Hence my including your name.
Miles, of the 3 posts by Patrick on this thread that I've "Gratituded", the only one in which he even mentions Chief Weaver's statement was #89, and all he says about it is "Actually in this case one is not more likely than the other. We do have the account of the person who was most intimately involved here, the young man who was stopped, who says that the chief's account is accurate." Your characterization of that as "Oh great, racial profiling in this instance is off the table because Chief Weaver says so" is, at best, an exaggeration--ironically coming from a guy who has a habit of invoking "the Charity Principle". Even if we were to assume that Patrick meant what you say he meant, "Gratituding" of a post does not imply endorsement of everything said in it--or are you unclear on that fact?
So on the one hand, Miles, we have your overreaching assumption that my Gratituding of Patrick's post #89 constitutes endorsement of your unflattering, exaggerated interpretation of Patrick's comment about Chief Weaver's statement, which somehow (along with other misinterpretations) led you to assert that I hold the unfounded position that "...it has somehow been proven that in no part of the incident in question Olembe was detained ... because he is a young black man." (your words). On the other hand, we have these clear statements from me: "Does that mean that Olembe was subjected to racial profiling in the incident under discussion? Quite possibly, but we don't know." (post #26); and "Arguing with one another on the basis of an assumption that we know that racial profiling actually did or didn't take place in this situation is pointless. We'll probably never know." (also post #26); and "...people should refrain from talking as if we know for sure that the cop did (or didn't) do something wrong." (post #61); and "... it's an accusation which, while possibly being true, is just as likely to be false, and is simply unsupported by the facts that have been mentioned." (post #101); and "I've never said nor implied that it's been proven that racism wasn't involved in this incident. Quite the contrary; I've explicitly stated repeatedly that we just don't know." (post #106).
So now I've done your homework for you, Miles; I've gone back and excerpted five crystal-clear expressions of my real position and presented them to you on a silver platter, which I shouldn't have had to do because you should have gotten clear on my clearly and repeatedly expressed position before publicly accusing me of taking the unreasonable position that "it has somehow been proven that in no part of the incident in question Olembe was detained...because he is a young black man." Now can you acknowledge that your characterization of my position was distorted into an unreasonable position that I never took? Is this how you practice your much-touted Charity Principle, Miles?
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This is the second, perhaps the third time you've gone to personal insult and extreme huffiness with me here on waccobb.
I have apologized for my description of you as "screaming". Please note that that one word is the only one I'm apologizing for; every other criticism in that post is accurate and fair, and I urge you to try to consider them open-mindedly rather than brushing them aside as "insults".
Also, I urge you to acknowledge that I was responding to having been insulted by you. Can you concede that your attribution to me of a really stupid unfounded position that I clearly never took was insulting? You dish it out way better than you take it, Mr. Charity Principle.
And you don't like my "huffiness"? I can dig it; I don't like getting "huffy"; it's no fun. Here's a solution: you treat me reasonably and respectfully (i.e., refrain from insulting me with gross distortions of my positions), and there'll be no need for "huffiness".
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I don't really care.
That's manifestly untrue.
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And I leave it to anyone who does to reread the record and decide who the champion of hyperbole is here, you or me.
Yes, I encourage everyone to do that.
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...I don't see where I'm asking or demanding that Patrick or Dixon prove anything, let alone a negative. I am saying that they can't prove a negative, that negative being that racial profiling did not occur in this instance, based on the available information. That's not saying they should prove anything. It is saying that what they appear to think has been proved, has not.
Miles, if by chance you've gotten this far without explicitly acknowledging that that's not my position, now is the time to correct your mistake by doing so.
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These issues are best discussed in person.
Agreed. Perhaps we can do that?
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The lack of affect and immediacy lead to the kind of misunderstandings and resentments that we see here, especially from those who do not take being criticized and contradicted, even clearly, politely and respectfully, well.
Such as yourself.
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Dixon, perhaps you think everything written in my previous post was directed at you personally.
Nope, I don't.
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May I suggest that, based on my experience with our several contretemps, that you suffer from a very thin skin?
I'll certainly take that hypothesis under consideration. Thanks for the feedback. Now here's some for you: May I suggest that your desire to see me as thin-skinned represents an evasion of the fact that I've been responding with reasonable outrage to your insulting me by attributing to me really stupid positions that I manifestly have not taken? And, if you've somehow gotten this far in this post without explicitly acknowledging that you've done that, are you ready to acknowledge it yet?
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May I suggest that you ask for understanding before leaping to the worst possible and most insulting to yourself conclusion in our exchanges here?
This is an astounding thing for you to say, coming as it does from a guy who's lately shown a remarkable propensity for attributing to others stupid positions that they explicitly have not taken! Having said that, if you think I've leaped to some unfounded conclusion, show me the quote(s) and we'll deal with it.
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...the concept of, "The Charity Principle" in any discussion/debate/argument. That one might start by giving ones interlocutors the benefit of the doubt, that the most charitable interpretation of their remarks are the best starting point.
Oh yes, I've already pointed out a couple of instances in which you've failed to practice what you preach regarding the Charity Principle. It would be helpful if you would look back at those instances and acknowledge them. If you think I've violated the Charity Principle in this discussion, provide the quote(s) and we'll deal with it.
More importantly, the Charity Principle is the crux of our disagreement! Patrick, I, and others are suggesting--insisting, really--that accusing someone of something vile in the absence of evidence is a gross violation of the Charity Principle, and that this principle applies to accusations leveled at cops as well as to any other human beings. You are suggesting that our taking that position in this case is somehow evidence of our non-enlightenment about racism. So it's hilarious that you're preaching to me about the Charity Principle when the whole dispute is about some of us trying to apply it to this case, and you among others not wanting to!
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(I consciously used "might" instead of "should" in this paragraph in an effort to avoid a patronizing, preaching, demanding, moralistic tone. How'd I do?)
Very, very poorly. Your patronizing, preaching attitude radiates from you like looniness radiates from Michele Bachmann.
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Only when absolutely clear evidence of malice, insult, ignorance, etc. is provided is it then appropriate to respond as if those were the issues.
Bingo! That's the principle that I'm invoking. Just add the word "racism" to the evils listed in your statement and we have my position in a nutshell. You readily invoke reasonable standards like this in your own defense, but are unwilling to apply the selfsame principles of fairness to others, such as the cop in this case. That double standard in your thinking constitutes egocentric reasoning, which is both a moral failure and a logical one. You also said in a previous post that "...no one here is in a position to claim whether or not racial profiling occurred", but don't seem to grasp that it's therefore inappropriate to accuse someone of it.
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If I've directly accused you of anything in this thread...
You have directly accused me of taking the position that "...it has somehow been proven that in no part of the incident in question Olembe was detained...because he is a young black man", in direct contradiction of my clearly and repeatedly stated position that we just don't know. Are you ready to acknowledge that yet, or would you prefer to evade dealing with it honestly for awhile longer?
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...it's that you have shown (at least to me) that your concept of racism seems to mostly involve overt expressions of prejudice, as your preferred criteria for provable bias.
Again you distort what I've said! I mentioned overt expressions of prejudice as an example of the kind of proof one would need to appropriately charge someone with profiling. Please acknowledge that, contrary to your distortion of it, that doesn't mean that my "...concept of racism seems to mostly involve overt expressions of prejudice, as your preferred criteria for provable bias."
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Racial profiling is more an issue of institutionalized racism, where clear evidence based on the behavior of the authorities (or anyone) is seldom, if ever, available.
Your comments here have not clearly indicated (at least to me) that you are aware of the difference between overt prejudice and the nuances of systemic, institutionalized racism.
Miles, what I'm addressing here is this specific issue: Did racial profiling occur by a particular officer(s) in a particular case; in other words, was Olembe treated any differently than a white kid would have been treated in the same circumstance? What you seem unable or unwilling to grasp is that, while "the nuances of systemic, institutionalized racism" is a related topic, and makes it very plausible that profiling could have occurred here, it tells us nothing about whether it actually did occur. And the related issue is that we shouldn't accuse people of vile things like racist acts in the absence of evidence that they occurred.
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Instead of taking umbrage, another strategy would be to demonstrate how I am mistaken. Showing how you have expressed that difference and indicated your understanding.
Miles, your condescending, self-righteous, more-progressive-than-thou attitude is not a constructive contribution to the dialogue. I'm not here to beg for your stamp of approval. I've explicitly stated in this thread and elsewhere that racism is fundamental to the USAmerican psyche; if that's not the exact wording you want, that's your problem. What I want from you now is explicit acknowledgment that the fact of institutionalized racism in our society constitutes no proof whatsoever that racial profiling took place in this particular case. Can you acknowledge that or not?
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Or you could read up and indicate how you understand the subtle differences between expressed prejudice and assumed lack of bias within a system derived from, based upon and operating according to systemic bias and privilege.
Miles, do you understand that I'm not assuming lack of racial bias in this case, and that nothing I've said implies that I am? (That's not a rhetorical question; it requires an answer.)
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In fact, you, "fit the description", of those I've met many times over, those who protest that they're not biased at all and are outraged at the implication, all the while demanding proof that bias has taken place, or not, before they will countenance the complaints of those who perceive it. If you were hip to the extant theory of institutionalized racism, you would know that your response is the classic defense mechanism.
I see. So if I suggest that it's wrong to publicly accuse someone of something vile like racial profiling without evidence, that's a defense mechanism on my part, eh? What exactly am I defending--that is, besides basic concepts of fairness? And it's my ignorance, my not being "...hip to the extant theory of institutionalized racism..." that causes me to insist on evidence before accusation? This is downright Orwellian, Miles. You should be ashamed.
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There are other options besides outrage...
So I guess my outrage at being repeatedly insulted and condescended to by you is inappropriate, eh?
Denial of what, exactly?
The only thing I said that could reasonably be construed as an insult was my characterization of you as "screaming", which I've already apologized for (above). Everything else is constructive criticism rather than insult because, no matter how unpleasant it may sound, it's true. Your desire to dismiss it all as "insults" is, to use your term, a "defense mechanism". And so far you've failed to acknowledge that your gross distortion of my clearly stated position was an insult. And, more importantly, you've failed to acknowledge that accusing the cop of racial profiling in the absence of evidence is an insult. Are you ready to acknowledge that yet, or would you like to run off on evasive tangents for awhile longer?
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As for absolutist statements on my part, as a matter of practice I make overt efforts to avoid them. Are you confusing generalization with absolutism?
What I called your absolutism was your apparent assumption that (as I stated it): "...because racism is so fundamental a part of USAmerican culture, therefore we can assume that every time a cop questions a guy who happens to be black, racism is involved." That is an absolutistic position, and I'm glad you brought it up, because I want to ask you if that's indeed your position or if you can concede that it's possible for a white cop to detain and question a black guy without racism being involved.
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I assume all claims are subject to revision, criticism, correction, as sufficient evidence becomes available.
Hmmm...so you justify publicly accusing someone of racism without evidence, but then require evidence to change your unfounded claim. Guilty until proven innocent.
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As for your demands and insults, I'll refrain from playing that game.
Oh please, Miles, your odor of sanctity here is really the stench of hypocrisy. As I've pointed out (I'm afraid quite redundantly to counter your attempted obtuseness), you've been plenty insulting without copping to it. As for demands, I make no apology for demanding evidence before people make public accusations, nor for demanding that you acknowledge the insulting inaccuracy of your distortion of my position.
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Just as Patrick "hectoring" Sabrina for an apology to the SPD, how effective, both rhetorically and practically, do you think it is to demand apologies from those who have offended you? In my experience, not so much.
Another distortion from you. I didn't "demand" an apology; I said "...an apology would be nice." In fact, I never demand apologies, because an insincere apology is worse than none at all. It would be nice if you'd acknowledge that you distorted my clearly stated position in an insulting way, and apologize from a sincere feeling of remorse, but I would never demand an apology.
In closing, let me try to cut to the chase and get us closer to some reasonable resolution. I tried to get to the crux in my previous post by listing my four main points, but, true to form, you ignored them in favor of your misinterpretations, evasions and marginally related tangents. I'm going to reproduce them here and ask you to show that you're arguing in good faith, rather than just trolling, by responding as concisely and directly as possible, without distorting my clear meanings or evading the issues through lengthy tangential lecturing. Please acknowledge that you understand that I agree with you on points 1 and 2, and let me know if you agree with points 3 and 4 (and if you don't please make your case concisely). Here are my main points again:
1. Yes, the USA (like all the colonial countries), is fundamentally racist, historically and up through the present.
2. Yes, the police as a social institution have performed the function of "keeping the niggers down".
3. It does not follow from this that all cops are racist, nor that a cop's simply stopping a guy who happens to be black and asking him some questions is evidence of racism.
4. In the absence of near-certain evidence, it's inappropriate to make public accusations of wrongdoing (as opposed to bringing up the possibility that it may have occurred). This is basic civility, based on the Golden Rule, and if you reject this idea, then you don't ever get to complain if you're falsely accused of something.
I thank you in advance for your direct, reasonable answers.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Dixon,
As I stated in my previous response to you, I am not going to engage in a tit for tat textual exegesis with you, goad away, don't get your hopes up.
As for your final four questions. Yes to 1-3. No to 4. On question 3 there are some provisos. See my previous reply to Patrick.
So far you've given no indication that you've explored the references provided here by me and others to various works on the phenomenon of institutionalized racism. And your detailed harangue, oops, "reply" indicates to me you do not understand the theory behind it. It's up to you to educate yourself on this matter. Nobody can do it for you.
A key indicator that you are ignorant of the information and ideas gathered by the White Anti-Racist movement is your use of the N-Word (even in quotes to give yourself cover, even if only for illustrative "educational purposes") in a previous post in this thread, and repeated in your last post, in question #2 (I think). Have you watched the short video of Tim Wise on this matter?
I really recommend you do. I ran into trouble while subbing in an H-Unit ABE III classroom a couple of years ago by even using the reference I used in the previous paragraph, not the word itself, while trying to illustrate a point about essay writing.
I thought I was being careful, I learned I was not and it led to some very outraged men, and their teacher when she returned. Long story, I think I told it here somewhere. My point being that no matter how enlightened we think we are on these matters, it's easy to overstep.
Most responses I could give to your last reply are contained in my previous post on this thread. My last reply to Patrick. Enjoy.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
OK, I've had my fill of the personal attacks and counter attacks, and I bet most readers have too. I think we've beat the core question of racial profiling to a bloody pulp long ago...
If you folks want to continue your well-written :duel:, or if you want to address the more general concern of racial profiling and its related issues, please do it in WaccoTalk. If anybody has anything new to add, you are welcome to reply here, but only if it's new and directly connected to this incident or other local experiences.
Thanks!
:waccosun:
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
OK, I've had my fill of the personal attacks and counter attacks, and I bet most readers have too. I think we've beat the core question of racial profiling to a bloody pulp long ago...
If you folks want to continue your well-written :duel:, or if you want to address the more general concern of racial profiling and its related issues, please do it in WaccoTalk. If anybody has anything new to add, you are welcome to reply here, but only if it's new and directly connected to this incident or other local experiences.
Thanks!
:waccosun:
May I suggest a topic that has been mentioned, but not responded to, and has been puzzling me. Under the stated circumstances, how should the officer have acted so as to both do his job and avoid the suspicion of profiling?
Patrick Brinton
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
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Posted in reply to the post by pbrinton:
May I suggest a topic that has been mentioned, but not responded to, and has been puzzling me. Under the stated circumstances, how should the officer have acted so as to both do his job and avoid the suspicion of profiling?
Patrick Brinton
I've been out of town for a few days, but I came home to some stories of bad apple cops that are why I am left feeling basically terrorized any time I see a cop anywhere near my black and brown family. While there are nice / good cops out there that I have experienced, it is the Bad things that cops do that gives them an image of terrorists. If Sebastopol police are any different perhaps they should where different uniforms, be trained differently, i.e. start training them NOT to shoot to kill.
Just this last Sat., July 16, a young 19 yr. old black man was brutally killed, shot in the back 5 times by SFPD police for running away from them when he failed to pay all his Muni toll. (Video Links Here) Already the police are trying to say he was shooting a gun first and that he was wanted as a suspect for a shooting in Seattle . But if you read the articles and videos I'm about to post here, you'll see that witnesses say he did not shoot a gun, and that his Attorney in Seattle describes him as a kid trying to get his life back in order and wanted to attend community college. The images of the so called "gun" on the ground in the videos look to me like they could be a cell phone. Also, the item the kid in the striped jacket picked up that cops say was a gun, looks like something square, actually looks like a wad of cash if you ask me. Read all comments below vids too.
Although the above story could make it's own new thread, I decided to post it here, because these kinds of cop killings are what keep me terrorized when I see the blackish uniform, especially when my young kid could be out and about. If Sebastopol police want to create a new image for cops, more power to them, lets see it happen. Change the uniforms, shoot to "halt" not to kill trainings!
Actually the cop may not have been able to respond any differently to my son than he'd done, Patrick, but until we have more solid evidence, I think he was profiled...either by the cop or by the vandalism victim.
Also, another story that came into my email today was about another racial profiling instance. Should sagging pants get you kicked off a flight? Arrested? Jailed? It did for 20 year old black young man, DeShon Marman. The below link is a story and a petition.
Tell US Airways: discrimination and stereotyping don't fly
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
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Posted in reply to the post by Sabrina:
Actually the cop may not have been able to respond any differently to my son than he'd done, Patrick, but until we have more solid evidence, I think he was profiled...either by the cop or by the vandalism victim.
My views on the second part by now have been well aired, and there is nothing to be gained by reiterating them here, so I will leave that part alone. However I am a little disappointed with the first part, which seems to me something of a cop-out. You have alerted us to the issue of profiling quite adequately, and rather than continue to pile on more and more instances of what everyone here already agrees is a huge problem in our society I for one would rather see you address what you would prefer to see in the area of police behavior, specifically in the kind of situation that started this whole thing. Not what can the police do to change their culture, or our perception of them; that belongs over in WaccoTalk*. What I still want to know is how the officer could have acted differently so as to avoid the suspicion of profiling, while still doing his job. Because if the answer really is that he could not have responded any differently, then that puts all cops in a no-win situation, doesn't it? Are we not in danger of leaning too far the other way, and creating a situation where cops will hesitate to stop someone they would otherwise have stopped because they happen to be black? We do want to stop crime and catch criminals even if they are black, right?
*Note to Miles in response to a previous remark
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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
(Patrick, please... Waccotalk instead of Wacco Community? Really?)
that I let slide at the time: yes, Miles, there is a difference between posting something in the General Community section and posting it in WaccoTalk. If there were not, there would not be two categories, now would there? In case you are unclear on the difference, perhaps Barry will be kind enough to explain it to you.
Patrick Brinton
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
I'm reviving this thread to let folks know about a city hall general meeting coming up this Tues. April 3, 2012 in which we will be sharing this issue, including the dispatch transcript. Please go to this link on Waccobb.net under events posted by Peggy Day that has more info, plus the link to the actual dispatcher tape [link removed by request of the "Reporting Party" - Barry] that was retrieved from Sebastopol police.
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?88709
The similarity to the dispatch tape for the recent killing of Trayvon Martin in FLA is chillingly similar. Please read the events forum listing pasted above, as very well written by Peggy Day.
Thanks. ~ Sabrina -
P.S. My concern here is Dispatch protocol and realize the thread name is still about racially profiling - but not necessarily the fault of the police officer who pulled my son over - more on the part of the dispatcher who just immediately gave power to the caller - regardless of the fact that the caller had randomly been driving around town looking for someone who "looked" suspicious. Read and listen to links above before asking questions, PLEASE.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
There’s new evidence in the “My son was racially profiled” thread, and what better time to address it?
The transcript of the (police, dispatcher, reporting person) communications is online and sheds more light on the incident.
The RP (reporting person) told the DISPATCHER “I heard a noise”, went outside and found his vehicle mirror broken, and “jumped in the car to drive around and see who was walking around the neighborhood and I just encountered this guy walking around the neighborhood.” It seems the RP noticed a young, black male near the bagel shop and jumped to a conclusion even though the young, black male was a good way from the RP’s home and offered no evidence of suspicious behavior.
The Dispatcher was told by the RP that he hadn’t seen anyone near his house. The RP did not tell the Dispatcher that he had any evidence to believe that the young , black male was the culprit. The RP just wanted the YBM checked out. Out of all the people on the Main Street of the city, in any direction, he chose the young, black male.
The Dispatcher contacted a patrol officer and reported that, “the RP heard a loud noise, went out to see and observed a black male wearing dark clothing.”
This is a very different statement from the statement given to the dispatcher by the RP. The RP said he went outside, didn’t see anybody, jumped in his vehicle and drove around. Down on Main Street (which is probably the busiest street in Sebastopol, with the most foot traffic) he saw a young , black male and called the police again.
The Dispatcher is at fault here. She misreported the situation and caused an incident of illegal harassment. The policeman was given the incorrect information (that the YBM was seen at the scene of the crime) when he was actually seen for the first time at least several blocks away on the busiest street in Sebastopol. There was no reason to stop the YBM. This was harassment caused by the faulty reporting of the dispatcher.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Thank you Joe, Well said, very well said.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Hi Joe,
I agree with you completely. One distinction. The caller's mirror was broken at 9 pm. He made a call to dispatch then, but I didn't get a copy of it . Wish I had. The "noise" was about 11 pm -- 2 hours later. The noise that made him go drive around for a look.
Good point that there were probably others in town, the BM was at a concert and slowly making his way home, playing the kalimba along the way.
I hope you'll come to the City Council meeting on Tuesday evening at 6 pm. Even if you don't want to use your eloquent words to speak to council at public comment, your presence will be noted by the council members.
Thank you, Joe,
Peggy
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by joehogan:
There’s new evidence in the “My son was racially profiled” thread, and what better time to address it?
The transcript of the (police, dispatcher, reporting person) communications is online and sheds more light on the incident.
The RP (reporting person) told the DISPATCHER “I heard a noise”, went outside and found his vehicle mirror broken, and “jumped in the car to drive around and see who was walking around the neighborhood and I just encountered this guy walking around the neighborhood.” It seems the RP noticed a young, black male near the bagel shop and jumped to a conclusion even though the young, black male was a good way from the RP’s home and offered no evidence of suspicious behavior.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Does this transcript/recording or any other credible source indicate if there were any other "likely suspect" *pedestrians* in the area at c. 11PM? Is it possible that the young man who was stopped was the only person walking around at that time? If you saw a young male, regardless of race/ethnicitity, out late at night and dancing/prancing around while playing some flute thing, what would you think?
Maybe we could do a test by having people of different ages and races dress in hoodies and go skipping/prancing down Sebastopol Ave. at midnight and see who gets stopped for questioning. Males between age 12 and 25 would likely be at the top of the list. That's the demographic responsible for most of the crimes like the one reported by the resident in this scenario.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by joehogan:
There’s new evidence in the “My son was racially profiled” thread, and what better time to address it?
The transcript of the (police, dispatcher, reporting person) communications is online and sheds more light on the incident.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
There were no hoodies in the Sebastopol recording. And, the vandalism took place about 9 pm. The man went looking at 11 pm. I've had a lot of car mirrors destroyed and never thought to go on the 'prowl.'
If I saw a young man playing an instrument just after a concert got out in downtown, I'd think he had a good time and go about my way. No matter what his demographic.
Peggy
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
Does this transcript/recording or any other credible source indicate if there were any other "likely suspect" *pedestrians* in the area at c. 11PM? Is it possible that the young man who was stopped was the only person walking around at that time? If you saw a young male, regardless of race/ethnicitity, out late at night and dancing/prancing around while playing some flute thing, what would you think?
Maybe we could do a test by having people of different ages and races dress in hoodies and go skipping/prancing down Sebastopol Ave. at midnight and see who gets stopped for questioning. Males between age 12 and 25 would likely be at the top of the list. That's the demographic responsible for most of the crimes like the one reported by the resident in this scenario.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
The man making the call heard noises which prompted him to go looking around 2 hours after the original incident.
It is also likely that he did not know about the concert. Wouldn't it be helpful to get his side of the story! Just sayin'... most folks in this person's situation would have thought something similar. It was hardly an outrageous conclusion -- especially if there were no other people around.
Re: the hoody, since the comparisons to the Florida shooting have been made and a hoody seems to be a significant factor in that case, just thought it would be an interesting variable in the experiment.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by daynurse:
There were no hoodies in the Sebastopol recording. And, the vandalism took place about 9 pm. The man went looking at 11 pm. I've had a lot of car mirrors destroyed and never thought to go on the 'prowl.'
If I saw a young man playing an instrument just after a concert got out in downtown, I'd think he had a good time and go about my way. No matter what his demographic.
Peggy
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Glia, actually it does not matter whether any one new where my son was walking to or from...its the fact that the dispatcher rushed a cop out to check on a random person walking down main st. at the command of the caller. She did not let the officer know that the caller had called about an incident that occurred two hours prior in which there had been no person seen nearby his home. The man randomly went out searching for someone who to him looked suspicious. He then stalked and followed my son w dispatcher on the line helping cop to locate my boy. Luckily the cop was not trigger happy, as some have been, when my son reached out and touched the officers shoulder to ask if he was ok. We cannot recall now if my son had a hoody on or not at this point; he may have, as he wears them often. Glia, the whole idea here is to bring awareness to those who are blind to it, especially in their safe little communities, and especially in a very unconscious way, that racism does exist, and that we want to prevent any future unnecessary deaths to any one like Trayvon Martin. Did you actually follow and listen to the Trayvon story/tapes, and listen to the tapes from my sons incident? Thanks for participating in this thread.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Clarifications: A "concert" was not "letting out". It was around midnight. Most shows let out around 12:30-1:00 a.m on weekend nights.
Olembe was not, "making his way home". He had gotten disinterested in the scene at Aubergine. He went for a walk. He was walking, sometimes skipping (according to him) on Main Street and Gravenstein Highway. The Main Drag in Sebasto. He was making his way back to Aubergine to ride home to Santa Rosa, with his parents, who he had come to Sebastopol with.
So far as I know, he was not wearing a "hoodie".
The Kalimba he was playing, is a Thumb Piano. It does not make a loud noise, It is not anything like a flute or a pan pipe. It is held in the hands, not up in front of the face. No concealing aspect to its use.
There were other people out and about. It was a Saturday (Friday night?). There are two clubs and at least two bars in the area.
Where the complainant spotted Olembe, was nowhere near his house. And two to three hours after his vehicle was vandalized. He had to leave his block, go driving up and down the main drag. He saw a young Black man walking, skipping along. He called 911 (again) requested that they specifically stop and question that young Black man.
The dispatcher did not indicate any of the relevant details to the patrol officers. (The two to three hour time gap from the vandalism to the "loud noise", the fact that he had not seen Olembe, or anyone else, on his block or anywhere near his house).
Given where the complainant lives, there was no way that any noise from either Hopmonk, let alone Aubergine, could be heard inside his house. At least no, "loud noise", of a single percussive nature. Low end repetitive beats, maybe, see the recent discussion about noise pollution from Hopmonk.
Olembe was stopped, "Walking While Black". It's obvious.
The meeting with Chief Weaver, was inconclusive.
The murder of Trayvon Martin, has revived this. The parallels are obvious.
Police Dispatchers should give all relevant information to Patrol Officers It did not happen in the case of Olembe's roust. An admittedly easy going one, where the consequences were better than what might have happened. Still, it was an unnecessary stop. And a problematic one. Because of the lack of clear information, known to the dispatcher, and not given to the officer.
Why was that not done? What has been done to insure that in the future it will be done? Those two questions have not yet been clearly answered by Chief Weaver or the City of Sebastopol.
Please, before speculating, try and get the known facts clear.
As to the complainants side of the story? Sincere efforts have been made to protect his privacy. (For variety of complex reasons. Possible legal liability being the foremost.)
If he wishes to come forward to explain himself. That is his prerogative. Otherwise, he has a right to privacy which the Nguebari/Krauss's and their friends and supporters, have scrupulously upheld. We're not going to "out" him.
Our focus is on the city's policing policies with regard to Racial Profiling, and the danger from self-appointed enforcers of the law. Our goal is to protect civil liberties, clarify probable cause (in this case there was none, save the claims of a civilian who went out looking for a perp) and to prevent tragedies like Trayvon's murder, Jeremiah Chaas's tragic killing, and other police killings due to lack of training and sensitivity.
We still want answers. Why was it not made clear to the officers, what is clear on the tape. Olembe was nowhere near the vandalized truck, the house, or the complainant, until the complainant went looking for someone, and fixed his attention on the young Black man bopping down the main street minding his own business.
Next time, the outcome might not be as nonviolent. Often enough it isn't. We want to insure that it is, to the extent, it is at all possible.
Tuesday night. City Council public comment period. Trayvon Martin, Shaima Alawadi, many others in this area in the last decade and a half (just counting recent history).
Racial profiling goes on in Sebastopol, Sonoma County, Santa Rosa and other local cities and towns. If you don't think so. Talk to your neighbors. Especially those with darker skin.
Olembe was lucky. We want to make sure future Olembe's stay lucky. He shouldn't have to be lucky, he should have the right to go about unmolested when he's minding his own business, has done nothing wrong, and there's no evidence against him other than the color of his skin.
I'd love to hear the complainants side of things. I think the chance of that ever happening, are well nigh nil.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
The man making the call heard noises which prompted him to go looking around 2 hours after the original incident.
It is also likely that he did not know about the concert. Wouldn't it be helpful to get his side of the story! Just sayin'... most folks in this person's situation would have thought something similar. It was hardly an outrageous conclusion -- especially if there were no other people around.
Re: the hoody, since the comparisons to the Florida shooting have been made and a hoody seems to be a significant factor in that case, just thought it would be an interesting variable in the experiment.
Well then I think of this following case: 911 caller arrested in deadly police shooting
Associated Press
PASADENA, Calif. (AP) — A California 911 caller told emergency dispatchers he'd just been robbed at gunpoint by two men who fled with his computer and backpack.
Pasadena Police Chief Philip Sanchez said that call set off a deadly chain of events that led officers to shoot and kill a 19-year-old college student, later identified as Kendrec McDade, late on Saturday night.
McDade was spotted in an alley about two blocks from the spot where Oscar Carrillo told police he'd been robbed, Sanchez said Wednesday.
[Related: 911 dispatchers may suffer from PTSD]
"The actions of the 911 caller set the minds of the officers," Sanchez said.
McDade ran from officers until an officer used the police cruiser to block McDade's path in an alley and rolled down his window, Lt. Phlunte Riddle said.
McDade allegedly made a motion at his waistband and the officer opened fire. A second officer who was chasing McDade on foot also opened fire, Riddle said.
McDade, who was less than 10 feet away from the patrol car when the officer opened fire, died of his injuries at Huntington Hospital. The Citrus College student was a football standout at Azusa High School.
In an interview Monday with detectives, Sanchez said Carrillo admitted that he made up the story about the gun to speed up the officers' response. Detectives now believe McDade and the other person, a juvenile, were unarmed, Riddle said.
Carrillo was arrested Wednesday on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter in connection with the officer-involved shooting, Sanchez said.
[Related: Video shows no blood, bruises on Trayvon Martin shooter]
Sanchez said video from a security camera shows the two young men were involved in the theft of a backpack from Carrillo's car, according to the Los Angeles Times. Sanchez alleged that McDade was a lookout in the theft.
The juvenile co-suspect was charged with two counts of commercial burglary, one count of grand theft and one count of failure to register as a gang member as a condition of his probation, Sanchez said. He remains in custody.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Dear City of Sebastopol Residents,
If you live in Sebastopol proper, i.e. can vote in City Council elections, please consider forwarding this thread to each City Council member. Soon. So they have time to read it before Tuesday's meeting.
It was suggested to me that I send them my previous post (# 124 in this discussion thread).
I am an activist and organizer. One thing I learned long ago is that elected officials pay far more attention to communications from their constituents, or their donors, than they do to those who are neither. I am neither.
I hope that some of you who are, will let them know about this discussion and the salient points about the details of what happened last June, when Olembe was stopped for questioning.
Thank You!
Here is a link to their email addresses:
If you are a City Council Member, and have been reading all along. Thank You!!!
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Of course racism exists. So, unfortunately, do various other thought and behaviorial memes such as misogyny and misandry. Blaming your son's melodramatic, excessively-discussed incident and the senseless killing of the young man in Florida on racism alone is ignoring 90% of the story.
Your son got stopped for questioning because he was a young male in the area of an incident and acting oddly. He was demographically profiled, not racially profiled. He should have known better than to touch the officer or make a move that could be perceived as threatening when being stopped. Yes, that could easily have escalated and thank goodness it did not. Maybe the "how to be arrested" protocol should be taught in high-school civics class.
There's another meme involved with this scenario, one that has cropped up before: martyrdom. (Y'all can connect the dots for yourselves.)
In the Florida case, the ultimate cause of the tragedy is a kook with a gun who had no business having a gun -- a gun he legally possessed and carried in public thanks to Florida's reckless concealed weapon and self-defense laws.
Currently there is legislation introduced at the federal level to force all states to honor other states concealed carry laws, even if they are much more lax. For example, the man who shot Treyvon Martin could take his permitted gun to another state and could carry it loaded and concealed in that other state thanks to his Florida permit. There is an organization called Mayors Against Illegal Guns that is opposing this bill and others like it. As they point out the real problem here is the gun lobby writing the gun control legislation -- something we should be aware of and take action to stop.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Sabrina:
Glia, actually it does not matter whether any one new where my son was walking to or from...its the fact that the dispatcher rushed a cop out to check on a random person walking down main st. at the command of the caller. She did not let the officer know that the caller had called about an incident that occurred two hours prior in which there had been no person seen nearby his home. The man randomly went out searching for someone who to him looked suspicious. He then stalked and followed my son w dispatcher on the line helping cop to locate my boy. Luckily the cop was not trigger happy, as some have been, when my son reached out and touched the officers shoulder to ask if he was ok. We cannot recall now if my son had a hoody on or not at this point; he may have, as he wears them often. Glia, the whole idea here is to bring awareness to those who are blind to it, especially in their safe little communities, and especially in a very unconscious way, that racism does exist, and that we want to prevent any future unnecessary deaths to any one like Trayvon Martin. Did you actually follow and listen to the Trayvon story/tapes, and listen to the tapes from my sons incident? Thanks for participating in this thread.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Quote:
Dear City of Sebastopol Residents,
If you live in Sebastopol proper, i.e. can vote in City Council elections, please consider forwarding this thread to each City Council member. Soon. So they have time to read it before Tuesday's meeting.
It was suggested to me that I send them my previous post (# 124 in this discussion thread).
I am an activist and organizer. One thing I learned long ago is that elected officials pay far more attention to communications from their constituents, or their donors, than they do to those who are neither. I am neither.
I hope that some of you who are, will let them know about this discussion and the salient points about the details of what happened last June, when Olembe was stopped for questioning.
Thank You!
Here is a link to their email addresses:
If you are a City Council Member, and have been reading all along. Thank You!!!
Thanks for encouraging the above, Miles. Tell all your friends in Sebastopol who care to be a part of this. My thought is that if there is a step taken to address the way dispatchers are trained, that is a step closer to working on the county, other cities, a roll model for the state, the country, the world?? World peace begins at home, I say. Also take another look at what Joe Hogan said, who is spot on!
Quote:
There’s new evidence in the “My son was racially profiled” thread, and what better time to address it?
The transcript of the (police, dispatcher, reporting person) communications is online and sheds more light on the incident.
The RP (reporting person) told the DISPATCHER “I heard a noise”, went outside and found his vehicle mirror broken, and “jumped in the car to drive around and see who was walking around the neighborhood and I just encountered this guy walking around the neighborhood.” It seems the RP noticed a young, black male near the bagel shop and jumped to a conclusion even though the young, black male was a good way from the RP’s home and offered no evidence of suspicious behavior.
The Dispatcher was told by the RP that he hadn’t seen anyone near his house. The RP did not tell the Dispatcher that he had any evidence to believe that the young , black male was the culprit. The RP just wanted the YBM checked out. Out of all the people on the Main Street of the city, in any direction, he chose the young, black male.
The Dispatcher contacted a patrol officer and reported that, “the RP heard a loud noise, went out to see and observed a black male wearing dark clothing.”
This is a very different statement from the statement given to the dispatcher by the RP. The RP said he went outside, didn’t see anybody, jumped in his vehicle and drove around. Down on Main Street (which is probably the busiest street in Sebastopol, with the most foot traffic) he saw a young , black male and called the police again.
The Dispatcher is at fault here. She misreported the situation and caused an incident of illegal harassment. The policeman was given the incorrect information (that the YBM was seen at the scene of the crime) when he was actually seen for the first time at least several blocks away on the busiest street in Sebastopol. There was no reason to stop the YBM. This was harassment caused by the faulty reporting of the dispatcher.
FYI, in addition to our going to the Sebastopol City council on April 3, , 6 PM, there is another event planned basically a shout out about racial profiling in which there will be several local families who've been victimized by this invited to attend and share there stories / place to seek support. It will be April 28, (the 2nd month anniversary of Trayvon's death) Noon at courthouse square - more info soon, but for now you can contact either Mary Moore (707-874 2248) or Morris Turner (707-795-2625) to see how to be more involved, etc.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Glia,
You're being obtuse. And presumptuous. And jumping to conclusions without any evidence for those conclusions.
Olembe was not, "demographically profiled", for, "being in the area of an incident".
He was stopped because a man, upset that his truck was vandalized some two to three hours before, went out looking for someone. That man chose Olembe, who was three or four blocks away from the incident. Many minutes later from when the "investigator" heard the "loud noise".
Olembe was on the main drag. Whether he was the only one out at that time, remains to be seen. Given that it was downtown, with nightspots all around, it's highly unlikely that Olembe was the only one on the streets in central Sebastopol. At this point, we'll probably never know for sure. But, do you go out on weekends in "town"? I do, occasionally. At that time, there are always five, ten, twenty others going to and fro, from their cars to the bars, clubs and back.
He tailed and surveilled Olembe while he asked the 911 dispatcher to have patrol officers investigate and question Olembe.
The patrol officers were not told by the 911 dispatcher that Olembe was not seen on the man's block, not near his house, not near his truck. Without that information, at the man's insistence, they stopped Olembe. They did not stop anyone else that night on information related to the man's report. (So far as we know.)
The "demographic" that Olembe fit, was who he is as an individual, a young Black man.
As for, "acting oddly", skipping, singing and playing a Kalimba, on 116, on a weekend late evening, in Sebastopol? You live there, right? Crunchy, woo, central "Town"? I call that normal observable behavior, not "odd". The only thing "odd" about him is who he is and looks like.
Reread this whole thread. There are plenty of other stories about racial profiling by the SPD here. Opinions differ. Several competing schools. But nobody has refuted the fact that it happens. Just matters of interpretation as to what it means and what motivates it and if it's justified or not.
Yes, other forms of oppression exist and should be fought as well. In many instances the two you mention overlap with race.
Telling concerned people that they're exaggerating and playing the "Martyr" card? Just what are you trying to accomplish with that insult?
Nothing you've written in your last two or three posts here, indicate that you're paying attention to the relevant details. At least it looks that way. So, other than raining on our parade against Racial Profiling by police and civilians in Sebastopol, and our concerns about a lack of proper follow-up from the Chief. What is your purpose? To tell us to just shut up and go away?
I doubt that would work on you. Why do you think (if that is your intent) it would work on us?
Seriously, I know you don't like me. We established that long ago. Even though we've never met in Meat World. But, I don't see you contributing any light to this discussion, just heat and dismissal. Maybe I'm misreading you. Maybe you have good intentions. Based on some of the stuff you share here, you clearly care about the suffering of others. So why the attacks on those of us re-raising this particular issue? I'm genuinely interested. Because based on your other expressed concerns, it puzzles me.
I agree Olembe should not have placed his hand on the officer's shoulder. He knew better. He was being "cute". But that act of adolescent bravado, does not in any way justify his being picked out from every other pedestrian on the streets that night, and stopped on the insistence of a frustrated and angry man.
A man who went out looking for a perp, found someone young and Black, but nowhere near his place, and insisted he be stopped. While the cops didn't know the salient, essential details that the dispatcher knew but didn't convey to them.
Did you listen to the tape?
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Thanks Miles. I was just in the midst of sending her a private note addressing just bout everything you addressed - I was sending it private so as not to detract from the point of this blog - which is to educate people about racism and to try to help improve protocol / training of the dispatcher, etc. But you said it all very eloquently.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
Of course racism exists. So, unfortunately, do various other thought and behaviorial memes such as misogyny and misandry. Blaming your son's melodramatic, excessively-discussed incident and the senseless killing of the young man in Florida on racism alone is ignoring 90% of the story.
I disagree; on the percentage of 90%. But at least you seem to acknowledge there at least is some possibility that racism could be a factor (10%?) in the Sebastopol case.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
Your son got stopped for questioning because he was a young male in the area of an incident and acting oddly.
"oddly"; as you put it is a good description, but was he (the young man) actually acting suspiciously to the police?... ...Or did, the info the Sebastopol police on the beat that night were given lack important, pertinent information and cause the situation to become (a) pejorative at the young man's behavior that night?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
He was demographically profiled, not racially profiled.
:2cents:Like it, or not, as a matter of course, demographics (studies, redistricting, and funding, etc.) in America do oftentimes consider race a mitigating factor (one amongst many).... ...Just sayin'.
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Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
He should have known better than to touch the officer or make a move that could be perceived as threatening when being stopped.
I wholeheartedly agree with that 100%.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
Yes, that could easily have escalated and thank goodness it did not. Maybe the "how to be arrested" protocol should be taught in high-school civics class.
That is a good idea:thumbsup:.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
There's another meme involved with this scenario, one that has cropped up before: martyrdom. (Y'all can connect the dots for yourselves.)
(...:hmmm:...:hmmm:)
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
In the Florida case, the ultimate cause of the tragedy is a kook with a gun who had no business having a gun -- a gun he legally possessed and carried in public thanks to Florida's reckless concealed weapon and self-defense laws.
A kook, or a vigilante, either one; take your pick.
It seems to me that the Florida law lacks the insight to have had a (no) stocking someone or at least a keep your distance while keeping an eye on the "suspect" when in the open public or community property except when making a 'legitimate' citizen's arrest until the police arrive when armed with a firearm clause in it so long as the so-called "suspect" doesn't seriously attempt a felonious attack on a helpless person or you or something that in some way could be reasonably considered as an action that is imminent which will cause deadly or serious bodily harm.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Glia:
Currently there is legislation introduced at the federal level to force all states to honor other states concealed carry laws, even if they are much more lax.
Isn't it odd that the bullheaded "States Rights" politicians and such ilk cry fowl when it comes to keeping racial stats of police stops, welfare, medicare, and all that etc. etc, yadda yadda.... ...as a States Right to either do or not... ...and yet they, with the financial backing of organizations like the NRA try to jam a thing so counter to what they say (for the most part) States Rights is supposedly all about?
That just shows the glaring, outright contempt and hypocrisy of them.:fie:
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
when i asked olimbe if there were other folks walking about when he was stopped he said yes. the sebastopol cop (probably an unpaid reserve officer working toward a job), let him go quickly, even though he was touched, it must have been done with love.
is it a problem if the sebastopol pd respond to the racial profiling of worried citizens? i know they do this regularly because of fellow workers experience. chief weaver says its no problem if no harm done. i know from my own experience as a construction worker, parent, and riding with for four hours on a friday nite that the sebastopol police pride themselves on stopping anybody unusual; racial, demographic, economic, and behavioral profiling.
maybe you think this is ok, that any wacco riding or walking on the street should be checked out. i notice nobody speaks for the man shot dead by the sebastopol police. they say he had a gun, and didn't respond to orders. we know he wasn't a career criminal, or particularly violent, just had a series of interactions with local law enforcement where his illegal status limited his rights to nothing. i guess its ok to kill his kind.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
This is what went out to many News Papers so we left our significant "names" off of it just because it felt safer. Hope you can make it out to support. We aren't exactly "on the agenda" but we will be utilizing public speaking time and hope to get it on the agenda for the future. My goal is to address things like what happened to Trayvon Martin, Kenneth Chamberlain Sr., Jeremiah Chass, the man Ross is speaking about above, who was shot, and many many more, by finding a way to prevent them in the first place. To me, that's through cultural / racial sensitivity training, training, training first off as a requirement for police AND the dispatchers. The best way to prevent these things is to start right in our own communities. This is for all our children in the future. If Sebastopol takes a stand and makes a change, that's one step closer to the rest of the county, the state, the world and so on.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contacts: Peggy Day [email protected] 415-608-2044, Sabrina Krauss 707-843-9236.
Date: April 3rd, 6:00 pm Sebastopol Youth Annex, 425 Morris Street in Sebastopol.
Local citizens and parents plan to ask Sebastopol City Council to take a new look an incident last June in which a local man followed a young African-American male while calling 911.
During public comment at the April 3rd Sebastopol City Council Meeting, a young man who was followed by a local citizen as he called 911, his parents and local supporters plan to address the council. The incident, they believe, has several similarities with the recent “neighborhood watch” tragedy in Sanford, Florida.
In the Sebastopol incident, a man called the Sebastopol Police Department saying his car had been vandalized earlier in the evening and he had just heard a ‘loud noise’ outside his bedroom. He then got in his car and drove a few blocks to downtown Sebastopol where, witnesses say, there were more than a few people walking around on a Friday night near music venues. He told the dispatcher “so I jumped in the car to drive around and see who was like walking around the neighborhood and I just encountered this guy who’s walking around the neighborhood. He’s on Main Street” (four blocks from the caller’s home). He then described the “guy” as a “young black male”. The caller continued following the youth, offering updates to the dispatcher every minute or so as the youth made his way down Main Street.
The group is approaching City Council with concerns that the person the caller chose to report was black and that the dispatcher did not convey to the responding officer that the caller had not see the youth near the car or witness the youth vandalizing the car. They are concerned that the dispatcher seemed to respond without reservations to the caller who was following the youth and did not ask why the man assumed that the youth’s walking presence in downtown Sebastopol was enough to merit a stop by the police. One critic uses the phrase “walking while black”. Fortunately, the responding officer spent less than 6 minutes with the young man before clearing the call and the group finds the officer’s actions beyond reproach.
“Hidden and institutionalized racism in this society definitely exists and its too easy for many who are not affected by it, to deny it.” one supporter says.
Speakers will ask the council to provide public education about what, if any, measures the city has taken to provide cultural sensitivity training to its police and fire departments. Many Bay Area districts have provided training about the police and mental health interface involving people of color.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
If your planning to go tomorrow night (or even if not), I wanted to also share this well written Solon piece on the significance of Trayvon, by the award winning educator Ulli K. Ryder, Ph.D below:
This is a blog: Ulli K. Ryder, Ph.D. is an award-winning educator, consultant, writer, editor and thinker. She facilitates discussions of gender, race, ethnicity, identity formation and media to foster diversity and create open dialogue.
I am a college professor who often teaches about race and ethnicity. Last week one of my classes reached the point in our syllabus where we were to discuss Civil Rights and Black Power. Having taught this before I know it can be tricky. One of the great things is that my students – most of whom are under 21 years old – have so benefitted from the struggles of the 1960s that their lives rarely contain the racial violence of those whom we study. Unfortunately, this makes it difficult to demonstrate the ways racism and racial violence are still prevalent in our society. Trayvon Martin’s murder made this reality horrifyingly clear and made the 1960s seem less distant for my students.
Just a few minutes into my lecture on the Black Panther Party and their fight against police brutality, one student raised her hand and asked, “Why isn’t the man who killed Trayvon in jail?”
The class, made up of students from a variety of ethnic, racial and national backgrounds – but without a single black male – was, as many of us are, horrified by the facts of the case as we know them thus far. Here are the three main points of discussion and what we learned:
1)The comparison with Emmett Till is troubling. While both Till and Martin were young black men killed in southern towns, there are important differences. Till was murdered in 1955 – before the civil rights movement, in a state long-famous for its extreme violence against black people, by white men who assumed he had said or done something to a white woman. Martin was murdered in 2012 – in a nation that claims to be post-racial, by a Hispanic man, while walking home after buying Skittles and a can of iced tea. Emmett Till was murdered during a time and in a place where violence against black males was well-known and expected. Trayvon Martin was murdered in a time and place where many Americans believe that violence against black males has been greatly reduced. Martin’s murder exposes what black parents have known for centuries: young black men are at risk every time they leave the safety of their homes.
Emmett Till is important largely because of his mother’s actions after his murder. Mamie Till Mobley held an open casket funeral so that the world could see what had happened to her child. Her strength helped catalyze the Civil Rights Movement and garnered world-wide attention to the extreme violence of the segregated US south. We can only hope that the murder of Trayvon Martin will inspire such activism and change. On Weekends with Alex Witt, the host asked Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter (D-PA) what the outcome would be if George Zimmerman is not convicted of murder. Mayor Nutter side-stepped the question by pointing out that there are a number of factors, including how the trial is conducted, which may influence the public’s reaction. But the subtext of the question and the answer was clear: if Zimmerman is not convicted of murder, public outrage may explode and we may have a revisiting of the civil unrest (or riots) of 1965 and 1992.
2)So far, the biggest thing to come out of Trayvon Martin’s murder is The Million Hoodie March and pictures of celebrities in hoodie sweatshirts. The sight of so many people in hoodies makes good copy and gives all of us a way to express our horror and sadness. But for many people, wearing a hoodie is synonymous with political activism. It is not. As my classes learn in our discussions of famous activists and political movements, real activism requires real commitment over time. Wearing a hoodie and marching through the streets is a good way to bring attention to the Martin case but we might also feel liberated from the responsibility to pursue further action because we can post pictures of ourselves in hoodies on Facebook and Twitter and feel like we’ve engaged in something lasting and important. This makes activism a personal act which is as dangerous as believing that racism is a personal act. The kind of activism that leads to lasting change requires mass action – over time – by many people and institutions just like racism, in order to survive and thrive, requires the support – over time – of many people and institutions.
Most importantly, Trayvon Martin was not killed because he was wearing a hoodie. He waskilled because he was a young black male and George Zimmerman believed all young black males were dangerous and should be stopped by any means necessary. I understand all the black parents who are confiscating the hoodies from their teenage sons. I understand wanting to believe that if we control what young black males wear they will be safe. But – and this is the most horrible realization – they will not.
3)Which brings me to George Zimmerman. Much has been made about the race and ethnicity of Zimmerman. Two things are readily apparent: 1) most Americans have no idea that Hispanics/Latin@s are an ethnicity and not a race and 2) racism infects all of us – not just white people. As people debate whether Zimmerman is “white” or “Hispanic” we have to remember that Hispanics/Latin@s are an ethnicity, which means they can be of any race. Therefore, Zimmerman can be both white and Hispanic. But this misses the point. Racism, bigotry and discrimination are not illnesses that only infect white people. Anyone has the potential to hate and fear black males enough to kill them. Nearly 400 years of anti-black stereotyping and violence has permeated our society and created the conditions which led to Trayvon Martin’s slaying. As one of my students said “It doesn’t matter if Zimmerman is white. You don’t have to be white to hate black people.”
As I looked out on my students at the end of the class I was struck by the looks on their faces. I am used to my students appearing horrified – this is the usual reaction to discussions of slavery or early 20th century lynching. But on this day my students did not look horrified. They sat, silently, looking full of despair. Trayvon Martin was only a year or two younger than they are. He looked like their friends, relatives, boyfriends. He – like they – grew up in a post-civil rights world where we are told people are judged on the content of their character not the color of their skin. Trayvon’s murder showed them the brutal, deadly falseness of this assertion.
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Update on City Council Meeting and recording of 911 calls.
The Sebastopol City Council Meeting was a week and a half ago. I've busy since then doing video work but wanted to make a few comments about the meeting, the follow-up, and post a new link to a newly edited version of the police recording. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDwzxZzJawY.
At City Council on April 3rd, many police and fire department career-long personnel were honored for their work, including Dennis Colthurst, for receiving the Sonoma County Officer of the Year award. It was an opportunity to take a moment to think about the dedication and hard work of public servants.
Almost as in a counter-punch, during public comment, about a dozen or so folks concerned with how the June 17th incident turned out gave 3 minute speaches. These comments can be seen for about a month at: https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/page/mee...inutes-reports by going to the right of the April 3rd meeting and looking at the end of Video 1 and all of Video 2. (A bit of Sabrina's mother's comments are not there because the camera person had to change the tapes).
Knowing that the council was not free to respond to the comments because of public meeting laws, Sabrina, Akili and supporters asked for a future meeting at which the topic "A Recommendion for Sensitivity Training for Police and Fire Departments in the Areas of Racial and Mental Health Responses" would be on the agenda.
Sabrina has been trying to contact various city council members in order to receive an answer to her question about putting this item on the agenda for a future meeting. So far she has not received a single response. She did, however, receive a response from the local ACLU which indicates an interest in following the situation.
I am not sure what Ernie Carpenter thought he was doing when he got up to speak at public comment. Sabrina and supporters believed he had stepped up to help them make the city aware that they believe that Olembe was racially profiled and followed in an inappropriate manner. Ernie's comments were a regurgitation of complaints (forwarded in writing to me) made by the person (RP) who did the following -- mostly false statements, and appeared very sympathetic to the man (RP) who had chosen Olembe from the downtown pedestrians and followed him. (more about that below).
Personally, I was stunned that Ernie seemed to have lost his prospective. And, further stunned when he sat down and looked at the group of supporters and asked why he didn't receive an applause after his comments as the previous speakers had. I was not amused when Ernie joined the group of supporters in the hallway afterward as they reviewed the meeting and didn't apologize for not supporting them. He actually told Sabrina that it didn't matter that he had incorrectly told the city council that there was a photograph published on WACCO with a map and arrow pointing toward the caller's (RP) house. The photograph was actually in a video which had a Google Map with that pesty icon pointing into the street nearby. The link has been removed by WACCO.
If you would like to help Sabrina, especially if you live in Sebastopol, please contact your city council members and ask them to put this item on the agenda. Ask them to return calls to Sabrina.
Now, about the RP (reporting party). The behavior of this man, after finding out that his police recording was public was a bit bullyish. (IMO) I'm not sure he is aware that what you say to a police dispatcher is public information and any one of us could go to the police station with a FOIA request and receive his personal information. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not know this. However, he made allegations that WACCO postings contained hate language against him and that I had intentionally pointed people to his house in order to endanger him and his family.
There is no apology from RP for having disrupted an innocent man's peace and quiet last June. Having a police car drive up and an officer stop you for questions is disconcerting, as I'm certain the RP knows. It's not an event you easily forget. And, I reviewed the tapes of the Trayvon Martin case, I question the legality of a man following a young male for any reason.
The RP's focus has been about his own fears, which seem inflated to me, given the circumstances. But, his language appears to have impressed Barry (who removed my link to the video) and Ernie (who plead his case to city council) and to the internet host I use for my television shows, VIMEO, which removed my video based on RP's word's alone. I've asked them to review it for hate language or arrows pointing to his house and am still waiting for VIMEO to respond.
The RP's tactics against my use of the video to explain the story were bullying tactics and confirm my suspicions about his actions the night of June 17th.
I've created a new video. This one has my commentary. It doesn't identify RP but puts into prospective the denials of the city manager, Griffin, about whether following and racial profiling occurred. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDwzxZzJawY.
I believe we must advocate locally to stop racial profiling and this is one opportunity for Waccoons to participate.
Peggy Day
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Re: Update on City Council Meeting and recording of 911 calls.
Thanks for the update and the YouTube link.
It seems to me from the audio; to say for certain, beyond a shadow of doubt, that "racial profiling" ‘harassment’ the African-American youth experienced was solely due to "racial profiling" solely by itself is not determinable.
:2cents:IMHO, probably not totally "racial profiling" but in part, I think: Yes, is probable there was some level of "racial profiling" involved. Also, insensitivity on the part of Police Dispatcher to that issue.
However, the likelihood of "racial profiling" being by the CP (Calling Party) should have been noticed by the Sebastopol police dispatcher; at least if the dispatcher had received and passed a reasonably done sensitivity, racial, and mental health awareness training.
In this case, I think, because there was no imminent threat to life, health, or property that the Sebastopol police dispatcher (one possible exception being: if there was another more urgent call the dispatcher had to deal with at the time) should have asked the CP more questions so the responding police officer would have more information to go on because at that point it was obvious that the CP’s side of the story was being told from a prejudicial standpoint (not necessarily racially prejudiced; but there is probable cause to believe that the possibility of racial prejudice existed, but, I stress only the possibility).
:dunno:I don't know how many police cruisers Sebastopol PD had in service at that time of night or how many were immediately available on that particular night for that specific location, but my experience in other counties has been that two police cruisers (sometimes officers on foot or bicycles too) would usually come; at least one would meet with the CP in person and the other one or more would check out the person/s of interest.
My understanding is that the reason for doing it that way is because sometimes the CP is actually a perpetrator of mischief themselves because they actually want somebody to be harassed, pay the "price" for whatever, or to divert police to somewhere else (other than where they are at a particular time) in the first place.
:2cents:In my humble opinion, I believe that the caller was in a state of hyper-vigilance :littlemarch: and that in itself, (hyper-vigilance) could be considered a mental health issue, which with the proper sensitivity training of officers and the dispatcher/s, as well; so... ...if available; dispatching two patrol cars in the manner I mentioned above would in cases like this be prudent and should be more routine because there is the potential of the so-called CP (for example, in cases like this) to go too far towards taking the law into their hands and becoming unnecessarily violent and endanger themselves, the so-called POI and the public at large.
Was the CP armed with a fire arm when in 'pursuit' of the POI?... ...Did the Sebastopol Police check for that?... ...Should have they?:hmmm:
As far as I can tell; the Sebastopol police officer/s did not overreact when they questioned the person of interest; however; I think that the Sebastopol police policy in matters like what we are referring to here; specifically, when the CP has obviously taken action to go beyond the bounds of their own domicile and actually number one: seek, and then, number two: follow somebody in public.
The CP in this case at that point did to some extent (albeit not 100% but still, to some extent) took the law into their (his) own hands even though at that point as far as I can tell after he for reason I can only assume is that a person of interest happened to be the closest person CP was able to spot from where he claims the incident occurred.
Police officers are all too aware of the likelihood of mistaken identity in cases like this. That is why I believe that, if not a second patrol car, that at least one of the police officers probably should have personally questioned the CP simultaneously as the person of interest so they can have a clearer picture of exactly what was going on; (or at least immediately after determining the POI was no danger to police, self, or public at large.).
That being said, I don't think that the Sebastopol Police on patrol that night could have not checked-out the POI without the dispatcher's being more assertive with the CP regarding the exact reasoning for the CP following the so-called "POI" in the first place.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by daynurse:
I believe we must advocate locally to stop racial profiling and this is one opportunity for Waccoons to participate.
Peggy Day
As far as the advocacy of preventing, stopping, ending, " racial profiling" goes, I think a good start would be requiring all police personnel to go through and pass special psychology courses that are fine-tuned for police that have separate sections (which all of must be passed) like understanding Mental health and also racial issues that will be encountered in the course of their professional police career so they are better prepared to cope with them when they occur.
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Re: Update on City Council Meeting and recording of 911 calls.
the sebastopol pd have more resources than one would think for a small town. there could have been four cars active at the time this young dark skinned man was stopped because of a citizen call. the responding officer was probably a reserve officer, an unpaid volunteer who, after going through training, was looking to gain experience and contacts by rolling for the spd.
the point is the spd is a place where the future culture of law enforcement is trained. will chief weaver choose the opportunity created by his hard work, this incedent, and sebastopol itself to evolve the culture of law enforcement in the us? will he choose to listen to the citizens who come to him to question the actions of his department, or continue to put up a wall of blue words (with the aid of local politicians eager to stay on his good side :.()?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Hotspring 44:
Thanks for the update and the YouTube link.
It seems to me from the audio; to say for certain, beyond a shadow of doubt, that "racial profiling" ‘harassment’ the African-American youth experienced was solely due to "racial profiling" solely by itself is not determinable.
:2cents:IMHO, probably not totally "racial profiling" but in part, I think: Yes, is probable there was some level of "racial profiling" involved. Also, insensitivity on the part of Police Dispatcher to that issue.
However, the likelihood of "racial profiling" being by the CP (Calling Party) should have been noticed by the Sebastopol police dispatcher; at least if the dispatcher had received and passed a reasonably done sensitivity, racial, and mental health awareness training.
In this case, I think, because there was no imminent threat to life, health, or property that the Sebastopol police dispatcher (one possible exception being: if there was another more urgent call the dispatcher had to deal with at the time) should have asked the CP more questions so the responding police officer would have more information to go on because at that point it was obvious that the CP’s side of the story was being told from a prejudicial standpoint (not necessarily racially prejudiced; but there is probable cause to believe that the possibility of racial prejudice existed, but, I stress only the possibility).
:dunno:I don't know how many police cruisers Sebastopol PD had in service at that time of night or how many were immediately available on that particular night for that specific location, but my experience in other counties has been that two police cruisers (sometimes officers on foot or bicycles too) would usually come; at least one would meet with the CP in person and the other one or more would check out the person/s of interest.
My understanding is that the reason for doing it that way is because sometimes the CP is actually a perpetrator of mischief themselves because they actually want somebody to be harassed, pay the "price" for whatever, or to divert police to somewhere else (other than where they are at a particular time) in the first place.
:2cents:In my humble opinion, I believe that the caller was in a state of hyper-vigilance :littlemarch: and that in itself, (hyper-vigilance) could be considered a mental health issue, which with the proper sensitivity training of officers and the dispatcher/s, as well; so... ...if available; dispatching two patrol cars in the manner I mentioned above would in cases like this be prudent and should be more routine because there is the potential of the so-called CP (for example, in cases like this) to go too far towards taking the law into their hands and becoming unnecessarily violent and endanger themselves, the so-called POI and the public at large.
Was the CP armed with a fire arm when in 'pursuit' of the POI?... ...Did the Sebastopol Police check for that?... ...Should have they?:hmmm:
As far as I can tell; the Sebastopol police officer/s did not overreact when they questioned the person of interest; however; I think that the Sebastopol police policy in matters like what we are referring to here; specifically, when the CP has obviously taken action to go beyond the bounds of their own domicile and actually number one: seek, and then, number two: follow somebody in public.
The CP in this case at that point did to some extent (albeit not 100% but still, to some extent) took the law into their (his) own hands even though at that point as far as I can tell after he for reason I can only assume is that a person of interest happened to be the closest person CP was able to spot from where he claims the incident occurred.
Police officers are all too aware of the likelihood of mistaken identity in cases like this. That is why I believe that, if not a second patrol car, that at least one of the police officers probably should have personally questioned the CP simultaneously as the person of interest so they can have a clearer picture of exactly what was going on; (or at least immediately after determining the POI was no danger to police, self, or public at large.).
That being said, I don't think that the Sebastopol Police on patrol that night could have not checked-out the POI without the dispatcher's being more assertive with the CP regarding the exact reasoning for the CP following the so-called "POI" in the first place.
As far as the advocacy of preventing, stopping, ending, " racial profiling" goes, I think a good start would be requiring all police personnel to go through and pass special psychology courses that are fine-tuned for police that have separate sections (which all of must be passed) like understanding Mental health and also racial issues that will be encountered in the course of their professional police career so they are better prepared to cope with them when they occur.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000003957 StartFragment:0000002140 EndFragment:0000003921 The Calling Party and the Dispatcher are the ones at fault. The Calling Party made it clear that he had seen no person near his house. The Calling Party made it clear that he randomly selected a suspect by simply noticing them on the street some distance from his home and hours after his property had been vandalized. Any dispatcher with the brains of an ice cube should have realized this was a situation where the Calling Party should be questioned and that there was no reason to bother an apparently innocent civilian going about his own business on Main Street. Although the responding officer is obviously not responsible for this mistake, the Sebastopol Police Department is at fault. Their Dispatcher caused the harassment of a private citizen. American law has a way to deal with this sort of situation. Maybe a Small Claims suit could be filed against the Calling Party. This wouldn’t be a common way to go about it, but it would be cheap. Or legal action could be take against the Sebastopol Police Department, hopefully with the aid of the ACLU. Or, all interested parties could chip in funds to initiate a lawsuit. Defend your rights and the rights of others in your country!
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
Peggy, thank you so much for re-creating posting the video again from the Sebastopol Police Dept. https://www.youtube.com/?v=tDwzxZzJawY If anyone would like to see the video of the presentations / requests we made to City council on April 3, please go here, it's on the end of video 1 and the beginning of video 2. I was very pleased w/ the number of people who came forward to speak to the council; it's been a week since I emailed each of the city council members, and have still not heard a word back from any of them, however I have heard from the local branch of the ACLU who wants to stay apprised of my communications and developments here, and agree that training should take place.
There is a Bill before Congress, H.R. 3618: End Racial Profiling Act of 2011, which we should all get behind, then the training would be mandated across the country, if passed.
I am a little disappointed with the lack of interest here on wacco, compared with when I first posted this last summer, and it kind of got hacked down at that time by some skeptics as to whether racial profiling existed, etc. Now, after there has been so much publicity around the country regarding the problems w/ fowl play callers getting someone killed by cops (Kendrec McDade), and also the mental health of "callers" who have killed ( such as Trayvon Martin) , other people of color coming forward with their stories (here's a recent story in Ukiah Daily Journal), and many other stories of recent racial prejudice and killings by cops (the old man, Kenneth Chamberlain Sr, who's medical devise went off, and the young woman, Rekia Boyd killed for no reason) I would hope that there would be more concern for preventing racial profiling in Sebastopol.
There really should be racial / cultural and mental health sensitivity training for the Police AND dispatchers. This would be the starting point for other towns in the state, spreading through the country as a roll model. Why not?
I would like to share my 3 min. speech to the council (that I wrote and timed). I resent this via email to each of the council members, getting no response. If you agree, contact them as well. Here goes:
Is there actual racial, cultural sensitivity training for law enforcement in Sebastopol? The training should be a requirement for all officers AND dispatchers.
I am the mother of the young black man who was followed by a reporting caller to police dispatch last June 17, after he found him walking on Main St. You all should have received copies of dispatch transcripts by now.
The dispatcher makes it sound like my son was seen right outside the man’s home, vs. being found blocks away on a busy Friday night on Main St. (Clearly not the only person on the street with both Hopmonk and Aubergine in the same vicinity)
I believe that when she heard the words “young black male” she unconsciously stereotyped and assumed that the caller was correct in targeting my son, sending an officer quickly.
According to the ACLU, Racial profiling is the practice of using a person's race, color, ethnicity or national origin to determine whether to stop, search or investigate him or her for alleged criminal activity.
Studies show that unconscious racial profiling goes on every day across institutions in the US. We don’t want it here in Sebastopol.
Though the officer was respectful, it terrified me to have my son stopped for no reason at night on Main St. I posted my concern to the waccobb.net bulletin board where it received over 6000 views. Eventually I had a meeting with chief weaver; the meeting included family & friends, and members of NAACP and Police Accountability Clinic.
I feel we were met with a denial that is common with police depts. across the US when addressed w/ racial profiling. We were not happy with this outcome, but gave it a rest due to other obligations, and the fact that our boy had not been harmed.
But last month, after reviewing the Trayvon Martin dispatch tape, it was so chillingly similar to ours, with a man on a call seemingly stalking my boy, that I realized I must act NOW, and why I’m here tonight! Thankfully we DID NOT have the same FATAL result as Trayvon Martin.
What was missing that night, AND in our meeting with the chief, was accountability for the PROTOCOL on the part of the dispatcher and the department that reflects racial / cultural sensitivity / awareness. Had there been training, I believe the dispatcher would have asked the man to return to the site of the sound outside his home since he had not actually seen anyone nearby, and an officer would have been sent there to investigate.
The way to stop unnecessary deaths like Trayvon Martins, Jeremiah Chass, and others, is through prevention, such as cultural sensitivity training. We could be a leading example that spreads through the county, the state, the country, and beyond.
When H.R. 3618, the End Racial Profiling Act of 2011 passes, racial profiling training would be mandated, so lets support it. This should be a priority alongside mental health and domestic violence sensitivity.
There is no peace without justice. World peace begins at home. Let’s get this on a future council agenda, please!
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
i for one have had a long history of unpleasant, uncalled for run-ins with the sebastopol law enforcement and their interpretation of their duties.
my name is andy and i'm 27 years old.
in particular, i have had bad experiences with one member specifically- officer david ginn. i've been a sonoma county native for longer than ginn has been a member of sebastopol PD, and i remember quite clearly the first time he felt the need to introduce himself.
i was walking into safeway one friday evening to pick up some snacks and beer before heading out to the river area for the night when i noticed a cruiser driving on main street. i payed it no mind and proceeded to go about my business, although i noted that the car had doubled back and pulled into the parking lot. i was in line at the checkout by the time officer ginn caught up to me- he called out to me, but was addressing me with a name i didn't recognize, so i didn't realize at first. i was paying for my groceries when he tapped me on the shoulder and repeated himself again. this time i knew he was referring to me even if he had the name 100% inaccurate...
i looked over my shoulder and said, "i'm sorry, can i help you?"
he replied by repeating the name i didn't recognize... "that's your name, isn't it?"
"no" i answered simply.
"oh," he said. "....so, what's your name?"
"not that." i answered with a smile and turned back to the cashier.
"oh," he said, in a tone i believe to be sarcasm. "well then, let me just see your ID."
...at this point i might like to interject that i had just recently bleached my hair and cut a mohawk. i was wearing a silver hoodie and an orange t-shirt. sebastopol always struck me as a place where one was free to express one's self.
feeling no need to be deceptive, i sighed and produced my identification, although i was within my legal right to walk away. since then i've run across officer david more times than i care to count.
i was curious to hear about similar experiences from the wakko community regarding unacceptable police behavior in sebastopol, and especially about officer david. i have a few more to share later, including the latest drama between he and i which has unfolded in the last few months.
on a last note for now i would like to invite the viewers of this post to link over to the official sebastopol police department's website HERE https://www.sebpd.com/
in case you're under the illusion that the local law enforcement are polished professionals, just go on a quick site tour. believe me, it'll be quick.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
I have it upon close and personal authority, that the SPD have referred to themselves as, "May Berry RFD", because basically, they have nothing to do. This happened during one of their, Ride-Along's.
Thanks for your testimony.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
when i rode along with the sebastopol pd, the mayberry rfd reference was about how other law enforcement agencies view the spd. they probably get teased this way because the amount and intensity of crime is low in west county and sebastopol in particular, mostly because of economic segregation. police officers, who place a lot of value on competency, are proud of dealing with "bad" people.
the spd take the teasing and are proud to police a little differently than other agencies. i think it is worthwhile to ask for even more difference toward community justice. there is a lot of possibility here.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:
I have it upon close and personal authority, that the SPD have referred to themselves as, "May Berry RFD", because basically, they have nothing to do. This happened during one of their, Ride-Along's.
Thanks for your testimony.
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Re: My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.
I had been wanting to add something to this thread for days but have been super busy w/ work etc., but I don't want this to be left to the way side, like so many would probably love to see it just swept under the carpet and forgotten. First off I wanted to let people know that as of this day I've STILL not heard back from any of the Sebastopol City Council member's (I'd emailed each, and left a voice message for one) regarding a discussion about the police and Dispatch receiving racial / cultural sensitivity training, or to at least get it on the agenda. My feeling is that they truly believe that their police Dept. can do no wrong and that racism / racial profiling does not, could not possibly exist in the town of Sebastopol. Listen to dispatch tape at this link: They are also clearly in denial that the "caller" was following my son, based on the statement that City manager Jack Griffin made to Peggy Day, even though it is clear from the dispatch tape that the man was following my son.
Last week I went to a meeting in Santa Rosa that I was invited to by a group called CORE. CORE stands for Community Outreach for Racial Equality. It is a diverse group made up of people from different cities around Sonoma Co and of diverse Cultural / ethnic backgrounds. They are dedicated to creating opportunities for conversations about race and culture in our community. They host monthly discussions on race and culture with different topics, speakers, and films and pick different discussion topics such as addressing racial bullying in schools, microaggression, white privilege awareness, etc. The subject of my son being racially profiled in sebastopol had come to their attention and they too feel there is a need for the training of law enforcement. For anyone who may be interested in attending one of their meetings you can email Kristy Boblitt at [email protected].
I wish I had more money at my finger tips, with plenty of time on my hands so that I could take a bigger leadership roll in all of this - and it's a sad state for everyone; as folks are obviously so busy that this stuff is just not that important to them. I know the feeling, we cannot take on every cause; I guess this one just stands out to me as I've got children and now a grandchild who are brown skinned. There was supposed to be a Trayvon Martin memorial gathering this weekend that was cancelled due to the person organizing it not wanting to rock the boat w/ Santa Rosa City officials that had reservations about it. I certainly did not have time to step in and take over the organizing.
I'll end on another awareness making note; in case you've not heard, George Zimmerman, Trayvon's murderer, has been let out of Jail on a $150,000 bail, most likely funds raised from his now closed down fundraising website. He is expected to remain in hiding in an undisclosed location until the trial begins sometime next year.
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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
when i rode along with the sebastopol pd, the mayberry rfd reference was about how other law enforcement agencies view the spd. they probably get teased this way because the amount and intensity of crime is low in west county and sebastopol in particular, mostly because of economic segregation. police officers, who place a lot of value on competency, are proud of dealing with "bad" people.
the spd take the teasing and are proud to police a little differently than other agencies. i think it is worthwhile to ask for even more difference toward community justice. there is a lot of possibility here.
