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Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
Dixon Wragg
WaccoBB.net
The Gospel According to Dixon
Column #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive."
--Sir Walter Scott
In an earlier column, I insisted that life isn't just an illusion, as some would have it. But it does include plenty of illusion, one of the biggest sources of which is the lies we tell ourselves and each other. Our ability to separate truth from falsity, reality from illusion, is very substantially impaired by the web of lies we all create.
Lying is an important part of life for many species. Camouflage is lying. "I'm not a tasty bug; I'm just a bump in the tree's bark." "I'm not a hungry leopard; I'm just dappled light shining through the leaves." And similarly, "I'm not a con artist trying to rip you off; I'm your friend." Bugs that are toxic or nasty-tasting tend to be brightly colored to warn off predators, so some species that are perfectly good to eat also evolve bright colors as if to say "If you eat me, you'll sicken or die." Some butterflies have big eye-like wing spots that make them look like much larger creatures. A hog-nosed snake will perform a dramatic death scene to dissuade a would-be predator. All lies.
Because lying confers advantage, it's a big part of our evolutionary legacy: Lie to get something to eat. Lie to avoid being eaten. Lie to get sex. Lie to get and maintain the kinds of relationships that meet our needs. Lie to get the things we want, and then lie to keep them. Lie about the fact that we lied, even to ourselves. And throughout, try to see through the lies of others. The nicer side of the coin is that, as a social species, we've also evolved such countervailing traits as honesty and dependability—but that's another story.
The most obvious sort of lie is the plain old explicit lie. We get mad at someone and tell lies to hurt them. We lie to get a job. We lie to stay out of trouble when we've screwed up. A guy may tell a woman he loves her when he really just wants to get into her pants. A women may tell a guy she just wants to have fun when her real agenda is to manipulate him into a committed relationship. Swing your partner 'round and 'round...
Then there's the "little white lie" or fib, which many tell themselves isn't even lying (and of course, that's a lie). These may indeed be harmless, at least sometimes. How do we answer when asked "Do I look fat in these pants?" or "Do you like my poem?" Perhaps pleasant fibs are the grease that lubricates the gears of our social lives. But I feel they should mostly be avoided. For one thing, we end up living in a world wherein you can't get honest feedback from anybody, maybe even your best friend. What if you really want to know whether you look good in your new jacket and no one will tell you that you don't? Hiding our real opinion is hiding part of ourselves, and it implies that we don't trust our friend to still love us even if we think their new jacket is ugly. When we manipulate one another with sweet lies, is that really friendship? Where's the intimacy?
Another way to lie is to state something as if we know it's true when it is actually just speculation. I guess some people think this makes them look intelligent, authoritative, and sometimes it does indeed fool people.
Then there's the type of lie which is insidious because it's silent. The lie consists in what isn't said, because silence is a sort of passive endorsement of the status quo. We maintain our silence because we're afraid to be real, even when there's a moral imperative to dissent. People express racist or sexist or heterosexist or imperialist or other noxious beliefs in our presence and we don't speak up, thus appearing to assent. People talk disparagingly of pornography and we nod our heads, not mentioning our own enjoyment of it. Thus are "phantom community standards" created and maintained. We live the lie we think is expected by others, but they're only playing that phony role because they think we expect it of them. Such lies reciprocally co-create each other, building into an edifice of phony community values, to the point where, for instance, prosecutors can say with a straight face that pornography isn't consistent with the values of their community even though the local porn stores are doing brisk business. Trying to appear "normal" and "moral" is a dishonest enterprise.
Another kind of lying is trying to make a good impression, or "putting your best foot forward". We "accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative", hiding our imperfections like a cat hiding its poop in the sand. This sort of lie is particularly intense on first dates, which involve phony Supermen and Wonder Women projecting their fantasy images. How ironic it is that we hope to start a relationship of purported "intimacy" by presenting flawless masks to one another. To a degree, we may conduct our entire social lives this way. One of the things I learned in group process classes when I was working on my MA in counseling is that the people who seem the most confident and "together" are just as insecure and scared as the rest of us. And, ironically, when people divulge their insecurities, I respect them more and feel closer to them! There is also the role-related lying of a parent portraying him/herself as perfect to the children, or a doctor to the patients, teacher to the students, therapist to the client, etc. Even real experts know less than they'd often have us believe, and some of what they do "know" will turn out to be wrong. The impressive picture they may paint of themselves is a lie.
Most of the forms of lying I've mentioned constitute our trying to "sell" ourselves. The enterprise of trying to sell a product, service, religion, philosophy, idea, brand, or political policy is called "advertising and public relations". Advertising is not inherently dishonest; it's possible to truthfully show people the real benefits of your product and encourage them to buy it. But most products are not the best option available, and some are downright useless, toxic or, in the case of ideas and policies, immoral or even brutal. Selling these products requires lying.
Often this lying is the explicit kind—making false claims, or falsely denying criticisms of the product. Clergy often don't believe all of the claims they preach1, just as celebrities may claim to love crappy products they would never really buy. Perhaps even more common is the type of lie implicit in the sounds and images used to manipulate the buyer on the unconscious emotional level—"Buy our product and you will have romance with beautiful people like those in our ads", "You are ugly and socially unacceptable without our product", "A vote for our candidate is a vote for peace, freedom and justice", etc. ad nauseam. Even what passes for news is largely a pack of lies, evasions, and distortions, a sensationalistic product designed to sell advertising as it attracts viewers by appealing to their prejudices and emotions, and to further the social/political agenda of the news corporation. In 1994, Fox News even spent big bucks defending in court their "right" to broadcast lies as news—and won! And it wasn't just Fox claiming that "right"; five major media outlets (Belo Corporation, Cox Television Inc., Gannett Co. Inc., Media General Operations Inc., and Post-Newsweek Stations Inc.) filed briefs of Amici Curiae to support Fox’s position. Lying is a widespread and fairly explicit norm in corporate "journalism".
There's also the lying we do to ourselves. Again I'm reminded of the quote from Richard Feynman: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool." Our natural insecurity, fear and egocentrism incline us toward some common self-lies, which may be very important to us and constitute strongly reinforced social agreements, rejection of which may get us ostracized, fired, spat upon, reviled, beaten, or worse. With as much honesty as you can muster, look over this list of a few samples and see how many apply to you (some of these may not be, at least in your case, lies):
- Everything is going to be alright.
- Everything happens for a reason.
- We don't really die.
- The bad stuff in the world is caused by those others, not by you and your group.
- Those who oppose you (or your country or religion) are evil.
- Crime doesn't pay.
- The way you make your money is honest and moral.
- Good will defeat evil in the end.
- You're happy.
- You live in a democracy.
- You're in love with your spouse.
- You're not attracted to anybody but your spouse.
- You're glad you had children.
- You're doing your best.
- You're better than average at your job or in general.
- You're certain about your cherished beliefs.
- You're more open-minded than those who disagree with you.
- You don't lie.
And this brings us to the meta-lie: lying about lying. Especially regarding the lies we tell ourselves, lies don't work well if we admit they're lies, so we have to lie about the fact that what we just said is a lie, and more generally about the fact that much of what we say and imply and believe is lies. And evolution has probably selected for the ability to self-deceive because if we've fooled ourselves we can more convincingly fool others. Reasoning with people would be so much easier if they would just say "I've lied myself into this pleasant belief and I can't be reasoned out of it, so don't waste your time." Instead they tell the lie, even to themselves, that they're honestly seeking truth when they are in fact just seeking excuses to believe what they like. The lie about not having lied is a padlock on the mind.
Is lying justifiable sometimes? Sure. If we're transporting contraband—drugs, Bibles or whatever--and the authorities ask us what's in our truck, lying to them to avoid unjustly being thrown into a dungeon is surely moral. And many of our "little white lies" are probably harmless. But lies are also a necessary underpinning for all kinds of evils—imperialism, racism, sexism, heterosexism, fraud, exploitation, rapacious consumerism, superstition. We need to stop telling ourselves the lie that we're not lying and the lie that the lying we do acknowledge is justifiable or harmless. We need to lie a lot less than we do, and get better at seeing through lies, especially the ones we love to believe. And, as critical thinkers, we need to acknowledge the considerable degree to which we are swimming in an ocean of lies so we can make compensatory corrections in our thinking. Such corrections include healthy skepticism and appropriate levels of certainty, which are bound to be lower than we'd like to think in a world constructed largely of lies.
NOTES:
1. For example: https://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...ing-Clergy.pdf
2. The late great 20th Century philosopher Snakefinger briefly discusses the issue of lying here.
About Dixon: I'm a hopeful monster, committed to laughter, love, and the Golden Rule. I see reason, applied with empathy, as the most important key to making a better world. I'm a lazy slob and a weirdo. I love cats, kids, quilts, fossils, tornadoes, comic books, unusual music, and too much else to mention. I’m a former conservative Christian, then New Ager, now a rationalist, skeptic and atheist. Lately I’m a Workshopping Editor at the Omnificent English Dictionary In Limerick Form (That’s right!), and my humor is getting published in the Washington Post and Fantasy and Science Fiction. I’m job-hunting too, mostly in the Human Services realm. Passions: Too many -- Reading, writing, critical thinking, public speaking, human rights, sex and sensuality, arts and sciences, nature. Oh, and ladies, I’m single ;^D
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dixon you make a strong case for radical honesty and i am sympathetic, however the feedback i often receive is tmi, either explicit or people just stop listening. since we are enculturated to function in a web of half truth and falsehood, why judge? the clearest example to me is breaking exclusive agreements in intimate relationships. intelligent people who i respect ask why tell if regret is causing you pain? (emotional, std issues require honesty!). to tell just causes the loved one to suffer too. are there no places for discretion in your world? or outright falsehood? .
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
I think that the thing to consider here is more about integrity. If you break an agreement regarding exclusivity with an intimate partner, then the truth is that the agreement no longer has meaning. If that is the case, isn't it important to let the other person know? If there is no longer an agreement that can be abided, then the other person needs to know. To pretend that the agreement is still in place is a lie not only to the other person but also to oneself. What lies do you need to tell yourself to make that ok?
Just a thought...
Jess
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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
dixon you make a strong case for radical honesty and i am sympathetic, however the feedback i often receive is tmi, either explicit or people just stop listening. since we are enculturated to function in a web of half truth and falsehood, why judge? the clearest example to me is breaking exclusive agreements in intimate relationships. intelligent people who i respect ask why tell if regret is causing you pain? (emotional, std issues require honesty!). to tell just causes the loved one to suffer too. are there no places for discretion in your world? or outright falsehood? .
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
There are at least two big issues at stake here. In our work with couples, we've seen how keeping transgressions a secret actually undermines intimacy - it ultimately does more damage than the infidelity itself. When a person breaks an agreement and keeps it a secret, the ego has to de-value the person they transgressed upon in order to not fall into the depths of shame. This creates separation and disconnection.
There is a way to clear transgressions in a healthy way and re-establish trust and commitment, but it takes a deep commitment to safety and intimacy on both parties.
The second issue is that when you break a commitment, you lose trust in yourself, lowering self-esteem. So when you don't admit attractions and affairs, you get both problems started, and thus begins the downward spiral that ultimately breaks down the relationship.
Here's a recording of our recent presentation on creating a secure relationship (free): https://www.transformyourbeliefs.com/5-keys-to-love/
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
I would say that the basic problem with hiding the truth--any truth, sex-related or otherwise--from an intimate friend or sexual partner is simply that you are putting up a wall of fear between you. The tension of fear, even if you push it to the back of consciousness, does not mix well with the relaxed expansiveness of love. If I don't trust you to love me unless I hide parts of myself, I cannot truly feel loved, because I know that the person you think you are loving is not the real me.
If I am holding back some truth from you, I also fear that you may be holding back some truth from me. This adds to the underlying distrust and fear of reality that undermines our relationship. To keep our relationship as strong and clear as it can be, we need to keep working to maintain a high level of honesty. This may entail periods of emotional pain and struggle, but it is by steadfastly working through these difficulties that we can come out the other side and build an even deeper level of trust and love.
I cringe when I hear terms like "cheating on your partner," "fidelity," and sexual "transgressions." If each of you are so afraid of the other being attracted to someone else that you have to sign an emotional "contract" to stifle your feelings, or at least hold back your behavior, what does this say about your self esteem and the whole-heartedness of your relationship? I know, we all have our emotional insecurities, but are we going to choose to go through life gritting our teeth to avoid painful feelings--which is itself painful--or are we going to summon the courage to face our feelings and build relationships based on supporting each other to be who we really are, and working through emotional difficulties together?
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Posted in reply to the post by Lion:
There are at least two big issues at stake here. In our work with couples, we've seen how keeping transgressions a secret actually undermines intimacy - it ultimately does more damage than the infidelity itself. When a person breaks an agreement and keeps it a secret, the ego has to de-value the person they transgressed upon in order to not fall into the depths of shame. This creates separation and disconnection.
There is a way to clear transgressions in a healthy way and re-establish trust and commitment, but it takes a deep commitment to safety and intimacy on both parties.
The second issue is that when you break a commitment, you lose trust in yourself, lowering self-esteem. So when you don't admit attractions and affairs, you get both problems started, and thus begins the downward spiral that ultimately breaks down the relationship.
Here's a recording of our recent presentation on creating a secure relationship (free):
https://www.transformyourbeliefs.com/5-keys-to-love/
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Dixon, I enjoyed your article, and let it sink in for a few days before responding.
As we know the most honest beings are children. They will speak out about people who appear fat, old, disabled, ugly, etc. But in most cases, their guardians will teach them that it's not nice to do that, because it hurts people's feelings. So, we are trained to lie early on, to avoid hurting others. Sometimes it sticks with us, and permeates all of our communication.We don't want to hurt people we care about, or even people we don't know.
Sometimes lying is self preservation or survival, in situations where we're vulnerable to physical or emotional abuse. When a woman asks the question "Does this make my butt look big?" does she really want to know, or is she hoping for a "no"? The other part of the equation is perception. Maybe the person being asked likes "big butts", and the answer is based on that preference, but he knows she doesn't like big butts, so he says "no".
Or if a friend asks another friend if a dress looks good on her, again the answer may be based on perception. I've had friends suggest clothes for me that I'd never wear.
There is no absolute truth in these matters. When I look around at how some people (women especially) dress, I can't figure out what they're seeing in the mirror, but they must think it looks good. Or they don't use a mirror. It's hard to believe, but maybe they don't care what they look like.
In relationships, people usually lie because of fear. Maintaining a relationship can be important for many reasons, and lying becomes part of holding on to our perceived physical and emotional security. The behavior can become so ingrained, that we even believe the lies.
Wanting to make a good impression on a first date is natural, but not necessarily lying. I remember not wanting to wear make-up because I felt that it presented a look that wasn't natural or true. I got over that when I realized that it's part of our culture, and as long as I wasn't afraid to leave the house without it, I was o.k. I've had friends over the years that I never saw without make-up. I felt sorry for them, because it seemed to reflect low self esteem, and that somehow I would judge them.
On dates, I've had men tell me things about themselves that I found out later, just weren't true. I guess they believed that these things were important to women, and I've come to realize that there's some truth to that. So, they tell us what they think we want to hear. But eventually the truth rises to the top, like cream. We women do the same thing.
Right now, I'm witnessing a budding "personals" relationship where the two haven't met yet, but the man is saying..."She's just what I want; she likes to do the things that I like to do." Could this be a match made in heaven? I'm watching. This woman has just lost her job, and wants to move in with this guy that she's never met. I wonder what her motive is? It seems pretty clear, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, I wish that we didn't feel the need to lie so much, but it does seem to be a way of getting our needs met....for awhile. It's too bad that we don't have enough confidence in who we are that we resort to lying.
Thanks for all your thought provoking comments....
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
dixon you make a strong case for radical honesty and i am sympathetic, however the feedback i often receive is tmi, either explicit or people just stop listening.
Sometimes this may mean that you've volunteered some info they're not interested in or have just blathered on too long, which is really a different issue than the honesty issue. Other times, as you've probably observed, your comment is relevant, important, maybe even morally necessary, but the listener/reader doesn't want to hear it even though they should. I never said being truthful in a world built largely on lies would be easy!
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since we are enculturated to function in a web of half truth and falsehood, why judge? the clearest example to me is breaking exclusive agreements in intimate relationships. intelligent people who i respect ask why tell if regret is causing you pain? (emotional, std issues require honesty!). to tell just causes the loved one to suffer too. are there no places for discretion in your world? or outright falsehood?
Ross, in my column I've mentioned some reasons why we should nearly always tell the truth, so I won't make that point redundantly here. Re: your last couple of questions--I also acknowledged that lies could be moral and harmless in some situations. But I still hold that we oughta be really suspicious of any impulse to lie, as it's easy to convince ourselves that this or that lie is the justified kind when it really isn't. Yes, telling your lover that you "cheated" on her/him will trigger pain, but not doing so may be more painful in the long run. I'm endorsing radical honesty with ourselves, so we're less likely to successfully jive ourselves that the self-serving option is the best one. And re: your specific example of "...breaking exclusive agreements in intimate relationships...", I'd suggest that the "need" to lie can be avoided by refraining from making a monogamous agreement in the first place.
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:
As we know the most honest beings are children. They will speak out about people who appear fat, old, disabled, ugly, etc. But in most cases, their guardians will teach them that it's not nice to do that, because it hurts people's feelings. So, we are trained to lie early on, to avoid hurting others. Sometimes it sticks with us, and permeates all of our communication.We don't want to hurt people we care about, or even people we don't know.
Of course, the commitment to honesty doesn't usually mean we need to volunteer information that wasn't asked for, such as telling someone they're ugly when they didn't ask! And even if they do ask, I try to phrase my response diplomatically. But I do think that the habit of lying, even to spare people's feelings, likely hurts people more in the long run than does truth-telling.
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When a woman asks the question "Does this make my butt look big?" does she really want to know, or is she hoping for a "no"?
I feel strongly that if someone asks me a question, they don't get to complain if they don't like the honest answer. I like this line from an old Bob Dylan song: "Don't ask me nothin' about nothin'; I just might tell ya the truth."
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There is no absolute truth in these matters. When I look around at how some people (women especially) dress, I can't figure out what they're seeing in the mirror, but they must think it looks good.
Aesthetic judgments are essentially subjective, so there is certainly no absolute objective truth in these matters; it's just a matter of personal preference. But when someone asks something like "Do you like this dress on me?", there is subjective truth--you either like it or hate it or something in between or you're not sure--and we choose whether to tell that truth or to lie.
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In relationships, people usually lie because of fear. Maintaining a relationship can be important for many reasons, and lying becomes part of holding on to our perceived physical and emotional security. The behavior can become so ingrained, that we even believe the lies.
Yes, and for me the questions become "At what point is a relationship based so much on lies that we can't really call it an intimate relationship because it's more like two people bumping masks together?" and "At what point does such a 'relationship' become not even a real relationship anymore, so that by trying to save your relationship through lies you've actually destroyed it?"
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Wanting to make a good impression on a first date is natural...
Yes, and I must acknowledge that if, heathen forbid, I ever find myself on a date again, I'll want to make a good impression. But lying is beyond the pale.
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Right now, I'm witnessing a budding "personals" relationship where the two haven't met yet, but the man is saying..."She's just what I want; she likes to do the things that I like to do." Could this be a match made in heaven?
I'll bet that "she" is actually a 400-pound Armenian shepherd with body odor.
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Thanks for all your thought provoking comments....
And thank you, Sandy.
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
I enjoyed reading this on Facebook today:
"Honesty without kindness, humor, and good~heartedness can be just mean.
From the very beginning to the very end, pointing to our own hearts to discover what is true
isn’t just a matter of honesty but also of compassion and respect for what we see."
~Pema Chodron
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
i'm with you on radical honesty for ourselves dixon. where i might differ is judging the communication efforts of others. i have no problem making exclusive sexual agreements and keeping them, even if requests to change them get a no. i celebrate the clarity with which you name your own poly nature. and if a friend wants to keep their tortured infidelity to themself and not share it with their partner, i will support them.
you did name lying to authority as acceptable. what about the developmental reason for untruth? are you the grinch who dismisses santa claus? or are you like me and go into a long story about the sami shamans dressing in red and white, climbing down through the smokehole while high on reindeer piss to practice potlatch?
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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:
Sometimes this may mean that you've volunteered some info they're not interested in or have just blathered on too long, which is really a different issue than the honesty issue. Other times, as you've probably observed, your comment is relevant, important, maybe even morally necessary, but the listener/reader doesn't want to hear it even though they should. I never said being truthful in a world built largely on lies would be easy!
Ross, in my column I've mentioned some reasons why we should nearly always tell the truth, so I won't make that point redundantly here. Re: your last couple of questions--I also acknowledged that lies could be moral and harmless in some situations. But I still hold that we oughta be really suspicious of any impulse to lie, as it's easy to convince ourselves that this or that lie is the justified kind when it really isn't. Yes, telling your lover that you "cheated" on her/him will trigger pain, but not doing so may be more painful in the long run. I'm endorsing radical honesty with ourselves, so we're less likely to successfully jive ourselves that the self-serving option is the best one. And re: your specific example of "...breaking exclusive agreements in intimate relationships...", I'd suggest that the "need" to lie can be avoided by refraining from making a monogamous agreement in the first place.
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
i'm with you on radical honesty for ourselves dixon. where i might differ is judging the communication efforts of others. i have no problem making exclusive sexual agreements and keeping them, even if requests to change them get a no. i celebrate the clarity with which you name your own poly nature. and if a friend wants to keep their tortured infidelity to themself and not share it with their partner, i will support them.
And if they're supporting your partner in keeping her or his infidelity from you--no problema?
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are you the grinch who dismisses santa claus?
I would not tell children the Santa lie any more than I would tell them the God lie. I might propose Santa as a make-believe character in much the same way as I pretend to be a fire-breathing dragon when I'm playing with my 5-year-old buddies Gus and Sam, but I wouldn't tell them Santa really exists. In most cases this is probably a harmless lie, but I do remember reading an impassioned letter in the Mensa Bulletin years ago in which someone described his traumatic disillusionment upon finding out he'd been lied to about Santa, which was still affecting him negatively in adulthood. Why take even the slightest chance of poisoning trust by telling a totally unnecessary lie?
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
Richard ("occihoff") accidentally sent me a response privately which he meant to post publicly on this thread. He asked me to post it for him. Voila!
Richard sez:
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For me, seeing through the Santa myth led immediately to considering whether the existence of God might be a similar myth. I realized that clearly it was. This led me into a life-long habit of skepticism that has served me well!
Some might suggest that we should therefore lie to our children to help them develop skepticism, but that would make as much sense as saying that we should beat them to help them develop toughness. Life will expose them to plenty of lies and pain without our help.
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
The Top of the Heap
Dixon, the introduction of your article cited insects and animals who “lie” about their appearance to purely survive. Can we then conclude that liars are the supreme fittest, and that honesty in nature, including in humans, is dying out? Perhaps, as we evolve into stronger liars, we may develop a gene for better lying. At any rate, the strongest liars, then, logically, are rising to the top of the heap. I had a teacher who was involved in local politics and was approached to run for a seat in Congress. She said something to me that I will never forget: ‘I have to draw the line here. If I go any further, I will turn into someone I won’t even recognize. The further up the hill I climb, the less integrity I can take with me. We are governed by liars and thieves, and I would lose too much if I were to run for Congress.’ So, Dixon, the awful truth (what’s that?) is that we are doomed to a future where not only shall we continue to lie, but the best of us liars will prevail. And be elected. Honest.
Lie to me, Baby!
I also think we want to be lied to. I knew a man who suffered brain damage. He learned in his neurotherapy that the censor in his brain that regulated honesty was temporarily shut off, and that he might say something insulting. Sure enough, when someone asked him if he liked her new shoes... he said ‘no, I don’t.’ Honestly, how rude!
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
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Dixon, the introduction of your article cited insects and animals who “lie” about their appearance to purely survive. Can we then conclude that liars are the supreme fittest, and that honesty in nature, including in humans, is dying out?
No, because honesty also has survival value.
What will you give me if I do, Sugar?
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I also think we want to be lied to.
Many (most?) do. I don't think I do.
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...when someone asked him if he liked her new shoes... he said ‘no, I don’t.’ Honestly, how rude!
I don't think it was rude at all.
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
He who frames the question wins the debate.
Randall Terry
Can you tell us why you are so interested in lying, Dixon? -Cal
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
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Posted in reply to the post by Califoon:
He who frames the question wins the debate.Randall Terry
Can you tell us why you are so interested in lying, Dixon? -Cal
Sure!
1. I'm interested in nearly everything.
2. I see lying as something which is more prevalent than we usually think it is, and I think it's a cause of much needless human suffering. Thus I think it's important to address it as part of an effort to decrease human suffering.
3. My column is basically an attempt to introduce readers to the fundamentals of critical thinking (also an attempt to reduce human suffering), so a consideration of the various sources of illusion is relevant.
Now a couple questions for you, Cal:
1. Why did you ask me that question?
2. How is the quote from Randall Terry relevant to this discussion?
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
i would respect their choice. i would have a problem with my partner because i value honesty so much in intimate relationships and i am very clear about it. if my partner had chosen to hold back the truth out of their own feelings of regret and was working to change on their own, that would make a difference to me.
so if a child were excited about santa with the parents playing along you would... remain silent?
you and i might have a greater desire and curiosity for the truth than average, and everybody has limits to how much we can know. the best we can do is try to understand how much we don't know, the edge of our knowledge. and whatever we know, i think it is important to respect others at the edge of their knowledge, and that sometimes means holding back the truth.
confidentiality is legally required for some professions and needed for some difficult communications. and for positions with responsibility and power, skill at speaking convincing half truth is required or your fired. to be president, you have to believe in mad. i sure hope they are lying!
i think anybody who says the don't lie is lying to themselves, hopefully unconsciously. sometimes we need to lie, and it is best to know why.
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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:
And if they're supporting your partner in keeping her or his infidelity from you--no problema?
I would not tell children the Santa lie any more than I would tell them the God lie. I might propose Santa as a make-believe character in much the same way as I pretend to be a fire-breathing dragon when I'm playing with my 5-year-old buddies Gus and Sam, but I wouldn't tell them Santa really exists. In most cases this is probably a harmless lie, but I do remember reading an impassioned letter in the Mensa Bulletin years ago in which someone described his traumatic disillusionment upon finding out he'd been lied to about Santa, which was still affecting him negatively in adulthood. Why take even the slightest chance of poisoning trust by telling a totally unnecessary lie?
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
Dixon said:
1. I'm interested in nearly everything.
ok- we'll leave that alone. 8>)
2. I see lying as something which is more prevalent than we usually think it is, and I think it's a cause of much needless human suffering. Thus I think it's important to address it as part of an effort to decrease human suffering.
I think it's beyond prevalent, it's pervasive. But I also think that the suffering happens because we no longer have a firm grasp of truth in many situations. When everyone is aware of the basic truths involved in a situation then nobody believes a lie when it is told. When they are ignorant of the facts then their ignorance, biases and prejudices may be enlisted easily, generally by a salesman or a politician. I'm amazed at how many people get their information from someone who is actively selling them something.
I do agree that education is key here but I think that a furthering of of the truth (as far as it can be known) is a far more powerful medicine for suffering than time spent dealing with the minutia of the sickness. I agree that a knowledge of common techniques of misinformation is VERY valuable but in the end it's only defensive...It's truth that sets one free.
3. My column is basically an attempt to introduce readers to the fundamentals of critical thinking (also an attempt to reduce human suffering), so a consideration of the various sources of illusion is relevant.
RE: Critical thinking, why is it you opened by equating lies and illusions? They are in no way equal and that bit of misinformation allowed you to imply that lying is as natural as having feathers.
For the record (from wikipedia):
An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory
stimulation.
To lie is to hold something which one knows is not the whole truth to be the whole truth, intentionally.
And while we're at it,
A pedant is a person who is excessively concerned with formalism and precision, or who makes a show of his or her learning.
Now a couple questions for you, Cal:
1. Why did you ask me that question?
I think that's been made clear.
2. How is the quote from Randall Terry relevant to this discussion?
You are clearly setting up a situation where linguistics rather than meaning is the key. That is your forte and that's fine but in this modern world where meaning is routinely sliced, diced, dissected and rearranged until meaningless, it all becomes mental calisthenics after a while and still leaves the people hungry for something a bit more nourishing.
Truthfully I didn't take much time picking the quote. If I had, I would have picked this one instead (which I am unable to attribute) "What is attended is enlarged" -Let that be truth, and not lies. -Cal
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:
Sure!
1. I'm interested in nearly everything.
2. I see lying as something which is more prevalent than we usually think it is, and I think it's a cause of much needless human suffering. Thus I think it's important to address it as part of an effort to decrease human suffering.
3. My column is basically an attempt to introduce readers to the fundamentals of critical thinking (also an attempt to reduce human suffering), so a consideration of the various sources of illusion is relevant.
Now a couple questions for you, Cal:
1. Why did you ask me that question?
2. How is the quote from Randall Terry relevant to this discussion?
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
I SO agree. I had to lie to my Mom tonight and believe me I had all this discussion in my head as I decided to do it. For me it all comes down to- is this in respect of others or am I trying to cover my butt? Or even worse, as you pointed out, am I lying to myself? thanks -Cal
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Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
you and i might have a greater desire and curiosity for the truth than average, and everybody has limits to how much we can know. the best we can do is try to understand how much we don't know, the edge of our knowledge. and whatever we know, i think it is important to respect others at the edge of their knowledge, and that sometimes means holding back the truth.
i think anybody who says the don't lie is lying to themselves, hopefully unconsciously. sometimes we need to lie, and it is best to know why.
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
RE: Critical thinking, why is it you opened by equating lies and illusions? They are in no way equal and that bit of misinformation allowed you to imply that lying is as natural as having feathers.
For the record (from wikipedia):
An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory
stimulation.
To lie is to hold something which one knows is not the whole truth to be the whole truth, intentionally.
Cal: Not to be too much of a pedant, but I like to consult a few dictionaries besides wiki.
Random House says that
Illusion: something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
Lie: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Merriam Webster chimes in with
Illusion: the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled
Lie: an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker [Webster allows for not necessarily having the intent to deceive]
I conclude that deception is the common, and a very strong, overlap in definition. Thus, IN SOME VERY BIG way, they are equal.
Also, if you don't think lying is as natural as having feathers, perhaps you never had kids?
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
>Cal: Not to be too much of a pedant, but I like to consult a few dictionaries besides wiki.
-point taken and appreciated. I don't find you pedantic at all.
>Random House says that
Illusion: something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
Lie: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
>Merriam Webster chimes in with
Illusion: the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled
Lie: an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker [Webster allows for not necessarily having the intent to deceive]
>I conclude that deception is the common, and a very strong, overlap in definition. Thus, IN SOME VERY BIG way, they are equal.
No, I think in some very big way they are both related by the definition of deceit. They are not equal. I see you added the word deceive to webster to help make your point. Consider: pigs are mammals, dogs are mammals, therefore dogs and pigs are equal and interchangeable. Bacon anyone?
>Also, if you don't think lying is as natural as having feathers, perhaps you never had kids?
No, I never had kids...perhaps natural isn't the right word here either. My main point there is simply that the reason for shading the truth at times is critical to the notion of morality involved. All lies are not created equal; any mature person of reason knows this. To attach human morality to the camouflage of a bird is lunacy. A functional logic should not take us there.
I'd just rather discuss truth than lies; What is attended is enlarged...
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
Here's a good TED talk on truth and lies and deception and illusion
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Re: Article: The Gospel According to Dixon #13: The Tangled Web of Lies
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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
Here's a good TED talk on truth and lies and deception and illusion
Very nice video. The one aspect which I object to is his equating art and things like stage magic with lying. That's stretching the definition of "lie" to the breaking point. Art is really only a lie if the artist intends to fool the viewer into thinking the picture of a butterfly is a real butterfly, which is rarely the case. Even trompe l'oeil pictures are intended only to fool the viewer momentarily, or in a context wherein it's admitted that the picture is really not what it appears to be. Fiction, whether in books, TV, movies, or on stage, is only a lie if it's presented as fact, such as in Carlos Castaneda's books, or when Lyall Watson presented the Hundredth Monkey story as fact (he later admitted that it never happened). Magic is not a lie when it's stage magic, which doesn't claim to be real, as opposed to people's claiming actual magical powers, which is likely to be a lie. There is a fundamental difference between all these examples of make-believe and actual lying. Stretching the definition of "lie" to include those things makes for some very dramatic, attention-getting statements, but it pretty much amounts to--a lie. It may even be a harmful one; I'm concerned that obscuring the boundary between make-believe and actual lying may help some people justify various forms of fraud.
