Sound levels at local music venues: Too Loud, Not Loud Enough or Just Right?

https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1220/tooloud.png

I went the Hopmonk last night for Dginn and Diego's Umbrella. It was a good show, but I needed to leave early because I found the sound level unbearable, which has also happened on other occasions there. I'm an old Deadhead :syf: and like my music louder than most people, but this was painful, even with some napkin bits in my ears. It's a pity because it's a great room and they have real good shows. There's still the marvelous outdoor space (which they keep pleasantly warm), but then your not in the show.

I find the Tradewinds consistently way too loud as well. I don't remember being uncomfortable at Aubergine or the Forestville Inn, or the Last Day Saloon, so I presume they were OK with me.

Sweat Your Prayers, and other DJ'd dances generally seem fine to me.

The main stage at Harmony and the Techno Tribal are also unbearable for me, but the Goddess Grove is just right!

Note that many people confuse loudness with distortion. It's quite possible to have crystal clear sound that is way too loud, and sound that could still be louder, but the sound system starts having a blaring quality because the system can't handle it.

So what's your experience with the sound level at our wonderful and plentiful local venues?? Do you avoid certain venues because they are often too loud?

I'll include a poll so you can register your opinion with just a click, but it would better if you would also chime in with some comments.

https://a5.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/029...175x175-75.jpg

I've suggested to the Hopmonk that they declare some of the boomer-friendly shows to be limited to 110 decibels (after which hearing loss occurs). Would that make it more likely that you would go? Maybe they could coupled with a Wacco event? :waccosun:

BTW, you can get a free decibel meter for your iPhone here. It maxes out at 110. I'd love to see some measurements from some local shows.

Please take a moment to let us know what you think!

:Thanks:
Barry

Speaking as a guy who probably has some permanent hearing impairment from years of painfully loud concerts, I support your addressing this issue. But I can't recall a local Sonoma County venue being loud enough to bother me--though it's true that I haven't scraped up enough $$ to catch local shows much in awhile. I saw Mark Growden and another (acoustic) band at the Hopmonk a few months ago, and had no problem with the volume. And in 2010 when I saw Zappa Plays Zappa at the Harmony Festival, again the volume seemed fine to me. This volume problem may be related to what particular sound man/woman is twiddling the knobs for what particular band. In my experience, people's cigarette smoke is much more likely to ruin the evening for me than is volume. If I encounter a volume problem at a local venue any time soon, I'll try to remember to mention it here.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1220/tooloud.png

I went the Hopmonk last night for Dginn and Diego's Umbrella. It was a good show, but I needed to leave early because I found the sound level unbearable, which has also happened on other occasions there. I'm an old Deadhead :syf: and like my music louder than most people, but this was painful, even with some napkin bits in my ears. It's a pity because it's a great room and they have real good shows. There's still the marvelous outdoor space (which they keep pleasantly warm), but then your not in the show.

I find the Tradewinds consistently way too loud as well. I don't remember being uncomfortable at Aubergine or the Forestville Inn, or the Last Day Saloon, so I presume they were OK with me.

Sweat Your Prayers, and other DJ'd dances generally seem fine to me.

The main stage at Harmony and the Techno Tribal are also unbearable for me, but the Goddess Grove is just right!

Note that many people confuse loudness with distortion. It's quite possible to have crystal clear sound that is way too loud, and sound that could still be louder, but the sound system starts having a blaring quality because the system can't handle it.

So what's your experience with the sound level at our wonderful and plentiful local venues?? Do you avoid certain venues because they are often too loud?

I'll include a poll so you can register your opinion with just a click, but it would better if you would also chime in with some comments.

https://a5.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/029...175x175-75.jpg

I've suggested to the Hopmonk that they declare some of the boomer-friendly shows to be limited to 110 decibels (after which hearing loss occurs). Would that make it more likely that you would go? Maybe they could coupled with a Wacco event? :waccosun:

BTW, you can get a free decibel meter for your iPhone here. It maxes out at 110. I'd love to see some measurements from some local shows.

Please take a moment to let us know what you think!

:Thanks:
Barry

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Thanks for bringing this up Barry! That's awesome that we can talk about it AND actually do something.

I got a solid bang on my head a few years back that makes me very sensitive to sound, especially indoors because the sound has no where to escape and really can rattle you, physically. I don't go to indoor venues for that reason. Techno-tribal being the biggest offender, even with earmuffs for the shooting range covered in fur!!!!!

I agree with the Harmony mainstage being disagreeably loud and distorted. Those were some top performers too... such a shame. Hopefully they can improve that for next year.

i am very careful about sound level because of working for decades in construction and knowing many partially deaf carpenters and musicians. theater movies are often too loud for me. most amplified music shows as well. i am quite skilled at fashioning earplugs out of tp.

90 decibles is more like the max for me. when you start having hearing loss you have fried 7 out of 10 inner ear nerve endings, used up the extra capacity.

We are on the same page as you, Barry. I loved dancing to Dgiin at the Hopmonk last night, and was really looking forward to Diego's Umbrella, but when they started playing, we started edging back farther and farther from the speakers til we were dancing back along the side of the bar and then just leaving early. Ouch! I find Aubergine fine and have not actually noticed the unbearable decibel level @ Hopmonk til last night. Main Stage and Tribal Techno @ Harmony way too loud, Goddess Stage and the little indoor venue good.
Great idea to get community feedback and pass it on to the venues we love and appreciate so much!

The last three shows I've seen at Hopmonk were ALL TOO LOUD ... and I really like loud music! I'm with you, napkin or toilet paper in my ears is less than ideal, while I like to feel the bass drum in my body, my ears don't like the abuse. Still had ringing in them when I went to bed, even with the napkin-sound-proofing after this Saturday's show.

Barry,

I have to agree...I am so sensitive to sound and noise and avoid or leave a concert or show if the level gets too high.
It is so unnecessary...the only place the sound should be turned up is at a huge outdoor event. The sound becomes so distorted when it's up too high, but it's like the musicians don't notice. I know that in some instances, the band will do a sound check before the show, but during it, one or more of the players can't hear themselves over the crowd so they turn themselves up...a little more...and more, as the crowd gets bigger.

They could easily fix this if they take responsibility and decide to go easy on the crowd. They could agree to implement a SAFE DECIBELS LEVELS and agree to not stress the ears of the audience and not exceed a certain level appropriate to the size of the room they are playing. If they told the audience they are going to keep the volume at a moderate level and that if people want to spare their ears and prevent them from turning up the amps to drown out the chatter, they'll need to go outside for conversations or yelling or screaming, or over-the-top expressions of Glee. Besides, it is extremely damaging to the vocal chords to try to talk over a loud crowd plus a loud band. And, I assume it could also contribute to hearing loss over time.

It really is time to address this since we are a community that advocates for health and green principles.

Trish Mairet, MA

https://www.voicevamp.com

I know my hearing is more sensitive than most people's, but I've been finding that I pretty much don't go to anything any more - it seems even house concerts are amped up way too high these days for me. Why music needs to be amplified at all inside a living room escapes me - I mean we're talking about a space where normal conversation can be heard across the room.

And public venues are off the charts. Ear plugs, because they block higher frequencies way more effectively than lower ones, distort the sound coming in so the listening pleasure is diminished to where it becomes sort of pointless, and certainly not worth paying money for.

I guess it's a symptom of some kind of mass desensitization due to the rapid escalation of ambient noise everywhere - ambient noise decibel levels in major metropolitan areas now range around 70-80, around the same level as a human singing loudly only 3 feet away.......

I dunno, but it's all too loud for this boy.

Thanks for opening up the conversation about this, Barry.

Gavio

I agree with Gavio. And not everybody does it wrong -- Jennie O's house concert with David Rovics was great -- unamplified, and he kept his guitar work in perfect balance with his voice. FANTASTIC concert, by the way. Thanks, Jennie!

I always find the noise level at any event way too loud, but as usual I generally find myself in the minority and just have to live with it. I protect myself by bringing earplugs, and even then the noise level is just at the barely endurable level for me. Why does almost everybody seem to crave such incredible decible levels?

I have a theory that people are generally so inhibited that they need to be blasted into action in order to dance. Even then most people seem pretty inhibited to me.

Also we have the incessant noise of autos, trucks, and loud machines of all kinds, and people become habituated to the constant racket. Often when people come to my neighborhood in the Occidental redwoods they exclaim about how quiet it is, even though I live on Bittner Road, which has fairly regular traffic that makes more noise than I would prefer. But sometimes when I go to the back meadow there are minutes of complete silence that are like a rare and healing elixer to me. I wonder how many of us are going to develop hearing loss, like airline pilots and others whose occupations involve constant high noise levels.

Thanks for bringing this issue up Barry. I have worked in noisy metalworking venues all my life, but I have taken to carrying ear plugs to protect myself from the overly loud music venues in the last few months. Recently I mentioned it to one of the musicians at the Tradewinds, and they toned it down to a reasonable level. I have never done that before, but I loved the music, and didn't want to have to leave if I could create a change. It was worth it! I think it was interesting that at the tree-a-thon fundraiser at the Laguna Foundation they were providing ear plugs at the door! Someone had the good sense to protect people in the audience since the venue had no sound dampening. Too bad all venues don't offer the same thing.....

I thank you for providing the decibel meter. It will help immensely in determining my safety, and give me a basis for asking for change in the future.

Thanks for a real contribution to our community that can be measured!

Big Bob

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

https://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1220/tooloud.png

I went the Hopmonk last night for Dginn and Diego's Umbrella. It was a good show, but I needed to leave early because I found the sound level unbearable, which has also happened on other occasions there. I'm an old Deadhead :syf: and like my music louder than most people, but this was painful, even with some napkin bits in my ears. It's a pity because it's a great room and they have real good shows. There's still the marvelous outdoor space (which they keep pleasantly warm), but then your not in the show.

I find the Tradewinds consistently way too loud as well. I don't remember being uncomfortable at Aubergine or the Forestville Inn, or the Last Day Saloon, so I presume they were OK with me.

Sweat Your Prayers, and other DJ'd dances generally seem fine to me.

The main stage at Harmony and the Techno Tribal are also unbearable for me, but the Goddess Grove is just right!

Note that many people confuse loudness with distortion. It's quite possible to have crystal clear sound that is way too loud, and sound that could still be louder, but the sound system starts having a blaring quality because the system can't handle it.

So what's your experience with the sound level at our wonderful and plentiful local venues?? Do you avoid certain venues because they are often too loud?

I'll include a poll so you can register your opinion with just a click, but it would better if you would also chime in with some comments.

https://a5.mzstatic.com/us/r1000/029...175x175-75.jpg

I've suggested to the Hopmonk that they declare some of the boomer-friendly shows to be limited to 110 decibels (after which hearing loss occurs). Would that make it more likely that you would go? Maybe they could coupled with a Wacco event? :waccosun:

BTW, you can get a free decibel meter for your iPhone here. It maxes out at 110. I'd love to see some measurements from some local shows.

Please take a moment to let us know what you think!

:Thanks:
Barry

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About the sound levels, I believe that it depends on who is playing. Back in the day, it was virtually IMPOSSIBLE for Jerry G. to play too loud. The louder he played, the more welcoming the brain and ears became to his sweet sounds.

Yes, for the most part, the sound is too loud and distorted at local venues, both inside and out, but I am not sure the discordance is all the soundman's fault...

The David Nelson Band was just fine; RR Jazz & Blues Fest. was REALLY distorted, as was the fireworks fundraiser in Guerneville's Vet's Hall.

I no longer buy tickets to bands where there is a large chance that it's going to suck. This limits what I see & hear live, but at least I don't have my experience WRECKED by bulls__t and incompetence.

When I was much younger I went to alot of shows at the Fillmore and Winterland and even as a teenager I wondered why the sound had to be so cranked you couldn't hear the music (???) It just seemed so counter-productive. Sometimes the volume was appropriate and my enjoyment was enhanced. I think the bands played really loud so folks in the back could enjoy the music at a concert level loud volume which meant that folks in front had to endure unsafe decibel levels. In 1991 I went to see the Dead in Oakland and came away with permanent ringing in my ears and some hearing loss. I don't see much live rock music any more and one of the reasons is the volume is way too high. I want to enjoy the show not have it blow me away or pave me over. Are you listening, Hopmonk?

For some of us who live within 6 blocks of Hopmonk, the music on Saturday nights is often so loud that we hear it in our homes even with windows and doors closed. As someone with hearing loss from working in a steel mill and from too many rock concerts, I worry about people on the floor at venues like Hopmonk.

I was a regular in the LA/Long Beach/Orange County Rock and World Music scene from '77-'84. Eventually I learned to make earplugs from cocktail napkins. Subsequent hearing tests noted high frequency hearing loss on both sides, the left being more damaged. (I used to hang on the left end of the stage, i.e. stage right, in front of the speaker columns where the noise cleared people out a little and there was room to dance.)

In the fall of '09 I noticed a sudden diminution in my hearing on my left side. I cup my hands to my ears in movie theaters and conversations. I haven't had it tested, cause I've no insurance. And I'm pretty sure what the cause is. There is no cure. (I made sure it wasn't just impacted ear wax.)

Sooooo, I don't go out all that much these days. Money, burnt out on the club scene, cocooning. But if the sound is too loud, people need to talk to the club owners.

I was tempted to choose the last item in the poll, because as much as I read and hear complaints about patrons, there were far more louts in the LA/SoCa Punk scene than I've encountered anywhere else, or since. Those guys would beat the crap out of you for just looking at them and send you to the hospital. Thankfully most of that went by the wayside as people got sick of it and made them unwelcome in terms they could understand.

Interesting...

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...01-17_1746.png

As the talent buyer and events director of HopMonk the single largest compliment we get is about how good it sounds in that room. Thats coming from international bands that have toured relentlessly for decades, sound engineers that have mixed on tours as large as Journey and patrons who have been inside nearly every bay area venue.

One thing that nearly every single person on this thread is... A. forgetting B. un-educated to... or C. unaware of... is that the bands have guitar amps on stage that we have ZERO control over in the sound booth. Same thing with horns. In smaller rooms this poses problems because those amps / horns on stage can easily over power the mains.

Bands like Diego's Umbrella are generally LOUD. That's how they like it... and if you ask most if their fans... thats how they like it to.

But I encourage each and everyone of you to let the bands know... tell them when their up on stage that it's too loud and to play quieter instead of coming to the venue post event to complain. A lot of times they might not know it's too loud because they're hearing is impaired or they can't hear it from your perspective.

The battle between "too loud, to quiet" is a century old trivia between younger and older folks that rivals that of "finish your dinner." Simply put... young people like loud music... older people do not. You were a kid once and liked it loud... don't lie.

But luckily for you it's an easy solution... get / bring ear plugs. You can't tell me this is your first rodeo and that you haven't complained about this before yet still have no ear plugs. Napkins aren't' efficient and you should know this if your that sensitive to "loud noise".

People who like it loud cannot turn up their ears... but you have the choice to turn yours down. It's going to be a lot easier for you to fight this battle because rock & roll AND loud are in a life long partnership with no prenuptial agreement.

The DB meters on your i phone are highly unreliable as they do not have frequency separation. Ask any professional sound engineer.

My advise... go get musician earplugs. For about $150 they take a mold impression of the inside of your ear and give you different options for DB filtration, but still allowing you to hear the entire 20hz to 20khz frequency range compared to foam earplugs that will generally cut anything above 10khz

Here's are where I got mine...

https://www.audiologyassociates-sr.com/

There's been some confusion on this thread, IMO, about loudness and distortion. Venues such as HopMonk and the Main Stage at Harmony, have amazing clear sound, it's just too loud (again, IMO).

To Patrick's point, yes we can wear earplugs, but it's not the same as the unprotected experience, just like safe-sex.

https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images...SL75_AA30_.jpg

Here are some earplugs that can help for only $13. I've got a pair, but somehow they often don't get into the venue with me. I know that the Tradewinds is a danger zone, I hadn't considered the HopMonk to be one before now. Now that I've made a fuss, perhaps I'll remember them more often.

Apparently my request for some volume-constrained shows is falling on deaf ears :wink:. Oh well...

Keep the comments coming folks!

As someone who is young and has excellent hearing . . . I'd like to offer that HopMonk is the only venue I have had rattling my windows on a regular basis. I lived with that every Monday, Thursday, and most Fridays and Saturdays for two years. I am sooooo happy to now live where I can sleep through the night, even if I do miss my dear neighbors. It is absurd to suggest that an entire household purchase earplugs in order to enjoy a sound night's sleep. Of course, the ear plugs do nothing to erase the wall and windows vibrating a few inches from one's head.

The worst days were Monday and Thursday rave days. (not a live band in control of their own volume) The sound got even worse as the evening wore on and doors/windows were propped open to cool down the understandably hot room. I was told to my face that I was hearing things, despite the fact that I had upset children woken near midnight on a school night. Try calling . . . they stop answering the phone after your first call. . . that's why I went down in person.

Unfortunately, decibel levels are not the best way to measure the effects of base sounds that rattle windows, but I wish I had a decibel reader when I lived there. My neighbors who's bedrooms on a second story had/have it even worse that I did.

Because of the lack of respect and response to my requests, I do not even eat at Hopmonk any more. I know several people who lament that they cannot attend music events there. Too bad, the music is great. . . just too loud.

-L

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Posted in reply to the post by Malarkey:

Interesting...
The battle between "too loud, to quiet" is a century old trivia between younger and older folks that rivals that of "finish your dinner." Simply put... young people like loud music... older people do not. You were a kid once and liked it loud... don't lie.

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Seems to me, that given venue manager's reticence to do anything about it, a good follow up question becomes "Why?"

Are there really that many people who would refuse to go if the sound volume were reduced? Is that honestly their patrons primary reason for choosing a venue? If so, does the venue still choose acts based on talent or variety, or is it just a matter of who can play the loudest?

I dunno, just sayin'

Gavio

I went to Aubergine yesterday noon for the first of KRSH's free winter concerts, and yes, even in that open space, it was loud. There was a young mother wheeling her small child in a stroller, and the child had her hands over her ears and was upset with the volume of noise. The musicians were good, however, and we soon adapted to the level of sound. I'm grateful that this thread has come up, because I'm sure almost all of us have hearing difficulties, current or potential, because of the levels of noise around us, especially music cranked up too loud. It certainly diminishes the enjoyment of the music.

I often want to hear certain bands but I avoid the Tradewinds because it is way too loud. It is painful to me and can make you go deaf and as I am a musician I want to keep my hearing and sensitivity. I haven't been to the Hopmonk in awhile so I don't know about that but I suspect it varies more than the Tradewinds. If the music is too loud I don't go in. I do use earplugs sometimes but I think it is likely that most of the sound technicians are hard of hearing at the Tradewinds. It is also not so great for the musicians although I know they ususally do use earplugs.

I think having this poll is a great idea.
Oceanicdreamer

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by Malarkey:

Interesting...

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...01-17_1746.png

As the talent buyer and events director of HopMonk the single largest compliment we get is about how good it sounds in that room. Thats coming from international bands that have toured relentlessly for decades, sound engineers that have mixed on tours as large as Journey and patrons who have been inside nearly every bay area venue.

One thing that nearly every single person on this thread is... A. forgetting B. un-educated to... or C. unaware of... is that the bands have guitar amps on stage that we have ZERO control over in the sound booth. Same thing with horns. In smaller rooms this poses problems because those amps / horns on stage can easily over power the mains.

Bands like Diego's Umbrella are generally LOUD. That's how they like it... and if you ask most if their fans... thats how they like it to.

But I encourage each and everyone of you to let the bands know... tell them when their up on stage that it's too loud and to play quieter instead of coming to the venue post event to complain. A lot of times they might not know it's too loud because they're hearing is impaired or they can't hear it from your perspective.

The battle between "too loud, to quiet" is a century old trivia between younger and older folks that rivals that of "finish your dinner." Simply put... young people like loud music... older people do not. You were a kid once and liked it loud... don't lie.

But luckily for you it's an easy solution... get / bring ear plugs. You can't tell me this is your first rodeo and that you haven't complained about this before yet still have no ear plugs. Napkins aren't' efficient and you should know this if your that sensitive to "loud noise".

People who like it loud cannot turn up their ears... but you have the choice to turn yours down. It's going to be a lot easier for you to fight this battle because rock & roll AND loud are in a life long partnership with no prenuptial agreement.

The DB meters on your i phone are highly unreliable as they do not have frequency separation. Ask any professional sound engineer.

My advise... go get musician earplugs. For about $150 they take a mold impression of the inside of your ear and give you different options for DB filtration, but still allowing you to hear the entire 20hz to 20khz frequency range compared to foam earplugs that will generally cut anything above 10khz

Here's are where I got mine...

https://www.audiologyassociates-sr.com/

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Oh My God are U serious????...ear plugs when you go out to spend money and have a good time! Just tell the damn musicians (with huge EGO'S) to turn that shit DOWN and that they sound like crap when they blast the hell out of themselves! Get over yourself and same goes for these musicians who keep turning themselves up bcuz they can't hear themselves over the other players! GEEZZZZ..........give me a break! ..."Ask them to turn it down...". Good luck!

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Posted in reply to the post by Tristique:

Oh My God are U serious????...ear plugs when you go out to spend money and have a good time! Just tell the damn musicians (with huge EGO'S) to turn that shit DOWN and that they sound like crap when they blast the hell out of themselves! Get over yourself and same goes for these musicians who keep turning themselves up bcuz they can't hear themselves over the other players! GEEZZZZ..........give me a break! ..."Ask them to turn it down...". Good luck!

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Be nice... :chillpill: :chillpill:

Patrick and the HopMonk get to run the place how they think best. If people don't like it, then they won't go back. You can't please all the people all the time... From the crowds that I have noticed there lately, they are doing a pretty good job!

From what some local residents are saying, there may be serious noise problems that are interfering with the neighbors' sleep and comfort. This may be a rights issue. If the Hopmonk (or whoever) is violating reasonable noise-control statutes, and especially if they just blow off complaints, calling the police as many times as necessary may be the way to go. If the folks responsible for making the noise have a cavalier attitude about whether they're making life difficult for the neighbors, maybe some legal consequences will change their behavior, where depending on their (nonexistent?) empathy for their neighbors hasn't worked.

Dennis Colthurst is the officer to contact. He's been working on this issue for a while now.

While I support our local venues and appreciate that Hopmonk has a thriving nightlife business, I don't believe they would lose that business if sound levels were brought into a more reasonable level. Standards can be set and worked with so that both live and recorded music is within reasonable bounds. One can have delicious space-filling sound without interfering with people's sense of peace in their own homes. I know folks in the Eleanor/Fannen/Walker neighborhood as well as people on Calder who deal with this continually. We would like to happily support our local businesses. It would be nice to have some more work done in this area so that it is not dealt with on a call-by-call basis.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

From what some local residents are saying, there may be serious noise problems that are interfering with the neighbors' sleep and comfort. This may be a rights issue. If the Hopmonk (or whoever) is violating reasonable noise-control statutes, and especially if they just blow off complaints, calling the police as many times as necessary may be the way to go. If the folks responsible for making the noise have a cavalier attitude about whether they're making life difficult for the neighbors, maybe some legal consequences will change their behavior, where depending on their (nonexistent?) empathy for their neighbors hasn't worked.

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My response was NOT to our neighbors Dixon... it was to the folks, like Barry (CEO of Wacco BB) who started this thread, relating to maintaining the enjoyment of a show without noise discomfort.

The neighborhood issue is something completely different that we've been working on for years. Being a sound engineering graduate, full time event producer & professional DJ... I can honesty tell you that there are MANY variables at work here.

The show doesn't have to be ear bleeding loud inside for sound to carry down the street… especially the on the LOW END. LOW-END frequencies are omnidirectional wave forms that generally take longer distance to form that are very hard to contain. Lots of music is heavy on the LOW END (reggae, hip hop, dub step, electronic dance, etc) hitting almost sub sonic bass. In this case it doesn't have to be very loud at all to hear it a block away.

Just like a car that drives by booming bass and you think... "are they deaf inside?" Not always… it's because LOW END moves through walls, windows, etc very easily at very low volumes.

Unfortunately... these are some of the most popular types of music on the planet and when your in the business of selling music you cannot ignore these markets.

The weather, believe it or not, is a big factor. We have clear temperate nights with acoustic folk bands and we get a complaint. But then we have a booming reggae show with wind, clouds, fog, whatever... and nothing. It's ghostly. Read up Bill Grahm's experiences in SF.

It goes on and on... at sound check no bodies are in the room to absorb the sound... it carries.

To think we are ignoring or neglecting our neighbors well being is a completely a FALSE accusation.

We have insulated the entire room... moved our box office off the street... keep our doors and windows shut... maintain the best volume control we can & adjust when we get calls. In fact... we HAD NOT gotten a call in 4-5 months until last week.

I literally lived across the street... 1st house behind Grateful Bagel on Willow for 3 years... and yes I could hear it from time to time. Was it rattling my windows, shaking the house and waking people up... not at all. Not to say that it couldn't different 50 feet in a different direction (noting from I explained above) but there needs to be a balance and understanding with living downtown next to a live music venue just like if you lived next to a freeway / train.

I understood that when living there. Downtown is only going to get bigger and louder.

Keep in mind we produce a substantial amount of fundraisers & benefits… maybe more than any other business in town! These "LOUD EVENTS" has raised over $15k for Haiti Relief and more recent $3k for a local children's music education program. We have one coming up this week for a local woman's shelter and next week for a young handicap girl. We employee over a hundred people. Generate a huge city tax revenue. Support music in our youth and bring some of the highest caliber talent in the world to our tiny little town putting west sonoma county on the map... for YOUR enjoyment.

Funny how we don't hear a peep from people for things like this… only what we're doing wrong or not doing right.

We have sellout shows week after week which I presume wouldn't be happening if people found it to be as loud as some are making us out to be.

Here's a a few tricks of the trade that might help you when in the room…

1. Try standing in different areas in the room. You'll find hot spots and soft spots. The better sounding rooms should have even dispreciation everywhere in the room, but you'll still find places that aren't as loud

2. Understand where your main PA is... the more you observe where the sound is coming from the better you can learn where to poison yourself at shows.

3. Dont stand in front row and do not stand in line with guitar amps on stage.

4. Musician Ear plugs - ear plugs - ear plugs.

I'm still shocked that most people claiming shows are too loud... don't have custom or cheap ear plugs. If you really enjoy live music that much but are constantly complaining that it's too loud... bring ear plugs. Or ask our box office... we'll even provide them to you FREE.

Again... here's a local ear doctor who can make custom fashionable cool ear plugs for about $100-$150 bucks...

https://www.audiologyassociates-sr.com/

Please know that I hear what your saying and want you to know we always have and will thrive to live in harmony with our neighbors, the city and our patrons. You can contact me personally as I'm always open to ideas, concerns & thoughts.

Kindly,
Patrick Malone
[email protected]

Hey all - this is my first post on this forum, so greetings and respect to all.

A few things about myself for context, I am a DJ and have been a professional musician for 15 years but I have been performing for more than 25 years. I come from a musical family so this discussion about appropriate volume and protecting your ears has been one I've been a part of since I was a child. My grandfather was Principal Bassist for the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra, my uncle was Associate Conductor at the Metropolitan Opera in NYC and others in my family had a rock/blues band for a decade. Add to this that I have a deaf mother and the perspective on hearing issues deepens. Also, for full disclosure, I am the DJ at the Hopmonk on Monday nights.

All that said and done, I am known to enjoy both listening to and playing music at high volumes with lots of bass. I can take bass in massive amounts but my ears are very, very sensitive to the high-frequency sounds that are created by poor mixing, distortion and the general tones that are created by electric guitar, keys and some vocals. I rarely use earplugs but do always have a cheap orange foam pair in my bag if needed. I have found that finding the right place in a room, the sweet spot, is the most important part of protecting my ears no matter the volume or mix of the music.

When we first started at the Hopmonk, the entrance was on the street which made it very easy for sound to escape the room and go down the street to neighbors houses. This is a primary reason why user Orm Embar had issues with sound carrying to his/her house probably. Since that time, the entrance to the Abbey for shows has been moved to the other side of the venue and the street doors are kept closed. The Hopmonk installed sound buffering inside the venue and installed 5 fans to keep the room cooler so that the doors, which used to be kept open a crack for air, are now kept closed. The sound buffering has been a huge help and we have set levels with our soundpeople to insure appropriate volume.

Even with all that done, with the best of intentions and efforts, some folks will find the volume or, more probably certain frequencies, not to their liking. I am very sensitive to that and just want to chime in that we are always working to better the experience of everyone that comes to the shows and to all in our community.

Whether it be the sound engineer on a certain night (many of whom travel with the band and are not Hopmonk engineers), the sound of a particular instrument, or the mastering/mix of a particular song played by a DJ, there will always be variation. All we can do is keep the ball moving forward on improving the experience.

Ear piercing high-frequency sound at a high volume bothers musicians, engineers and bar staff just as it can offend patrons and we can't leave the room to escape it. We are talking about our working environment so we are highly motivated and invested in making sure it is safe for both our/your ears. Please know that.

For those of you who have numerous experiences with ear sensitivity, if it looks like the majority of others in attendance are not bothered, then I do recommend bringing earplugs. In some instances, It's not a knock on any venue or musician. Some people just have ears that are more sensitive than the majority of others.

Bottom line, I just wanted to give voice to the fact that its not a musician/venue vs. folks who want lower volume issue. It's about finding an appropriate balance. In the end, even if done totally right, some people will still want volume higher and some lower. Some will want the "highs" turned up while others will just perpetually want more bass. Musical taste and taste for sonic experience is just as finicky and unique to each person as is their taste for food.

When we talk about all this I do understand that the stakes are high. On a primary level we are talking about personal safety. I've been concerned about any potential hearing loss since I was a child, having grown up with a deaf mother. Also, we have a family friend, a senior executive at Sony, who lost his hearing due to years in the industry. They are both on me to check my ear safety.

One last thing, for some who used to love loud concerts but no longer do, be honest in your self reflection as to whether the volume is too loud for everyone or just you. Every attendee at a show is important and no one should feel threatened by the volume or excluded but if its more about your taste and everyone else is safe and enjoying themselves it makes sense to get earplugs and let the rest enjoy the music per their tastes.

My two cents.

Respect - Jacques

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Posted in reply to the post by Malarkey:

To think we are ignoring or neglecting our neighbors well being is a completely a FALSE accusation.

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I hope you're not falsely accusing me of false accusation, LOL! Please note that I made some conditional statements carefully qualified with several "may bes", "ifs", and an appropriate "?". That said, I note that you haven't specifically addressed a couple of the accusations made by Orm which I was responding to, e.g.: "I was told to my face that I was hearing things, despite the fact that I had upset children woken near midnight on a school night. Try calling . . . they stop answering the phone after your first call. . .". If your staff are responding in these perhaps less than respectful ways, would you even know it?

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Keep in mind we produce a substantial amount of fundraisers & benefits… maybe more than any other business in town!

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Much kudos to you folks for that!

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... the more you observe where the sound is coming from the better you can learn where to poison yourself at shows.

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[emphasis mine]
:rofl2:

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

[/FONT]I hope you're not falsely accusing me of false accusation, LOL! Please note that I made some conditional statements carefully qualified with several "may bes", "ifs", and an appropriate "?". That said, I note that you haven't specifically addressed a couple of the accusations made by Orm which I was responding to, e.g.: "[/COLOR][/COLOR]I was told to my face that I was hearing things, despite the fact that I had upset children woken near midnight on a school night. Try calling . . . they stop answering the phone after your first call. . .". If your staff are responding in these perhaps less than respectful ways, would you even know it?


Much kudos to you folks for that!

[emphasis mine]
:rofl2:

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I would... because I run room, am there 90% of the time and work closely with my staff. The fact that Orm doesn't have the name of someone that clearly insulted him is very suspicious. I highly doubt that any of my managers would tell that to a concerned neighbor.

Thank you for your views, experience and history. I was aware of the dynamics of sound re: weather etc which is fascinating and frustrating I imagine for venues.

Yet I haven't seen an actual discussion about decibel level. I Googled it and here's reference for discussion. https://www.dangerousdecibels.org/ed.../hearing-loss/

(I'd offer a Wikipedia link but they are on BLACKOUT. ...Can you imagine life without Wikipedia? Please weigh in on the proposed bill and add your name to the filibuster. I don't want to derail from the main topic but it was important to mention.)

I gave up on attending Hopmonk and venues like it a long time ago. I'm sorry if Hopmonk feels like they are being picked on because it really isn't about them. This is about venues that can cause hearing loss. If a venue doesn't want to keep it under 85db, if would be nice for consumers to know and make an informed choice.

I say this because I MIGHT ACTUALLY GO TO A VENUE if I knew I could enjoy it comfortably.

Otherwise I will just completely ignore the venue and never give it consideration as an entertainment option. ---- Which is a shame for places like Hopmonk because I actually like their food.

My 2 cents... your mileage WILL vary.
Sereniti

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Posted in reply to the post by Jacques:

Hey all - this is my first post on this forum, so greetings and respect to all.

A few things about myself for context, I am a DJ and have been a professional musician for 15 years but I have been performing for more than 25 years. I come from a musical family so this discussion about appropriate volume and protecting your ears has been one I've been a part of since I was a child. ......etc

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