Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Is this really what our police and community is worried about? They also did this at the 7/11 a few weeks ago . It says they're using "state grant" money, so what does that mean, hiring more officers or giving our police overtime and hiring the minors? It would be nice for our police chief to weigh in on this.
I'm not advocating underage drinking, but really? Is this is a priority in our town, the police arranging stings, rather than solving serious crimes like burglaries, domestic violence, assaults, rape, etc?
So the police entrapment sting was 1 for 29 and 1 for 22 at their last sting, making them a whopping 2 for 51 in stopping this insidious crime, which evidently occurs less than 4% of the time someone is asked to buy alcohol for a minor. And who are these "minors" they are recruiting to sting these adults? Are they paid? Are they "reserve" police officer's in training? I guess the lesson we learn from this exercise, is never trust the kids who are out in our town and out and about, they could be working undercover.
Great job, I think most of us know that the majority of underage drinking occurs when kids simply raid their parents liquor cabinet, oh that's right, now parents can be cited for that too. Wouldn't it make more sense to teach kids how to drink responsibly and that there are consequences to their actions, rather than turn the adults into criminals? Or at least if they do drink, provide a safe environment if it's going to happen anyways?
Would any of the police in our town swear under oath and/or take a lie detector test to prove that they never took one sip of alcohol until they were 21. How about our city council members? I would bet virtually every single one of them took a sip of alcohol, illegally, when they were a under 21. Does anyone remember college, when you were underage, but still adults, and probably had a few drinks. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before this sting tactic hits our medical dispensaries, if they haven't already.
I know drunk driving kills, education is the only answer, as well as providing a safe way for drunk kids and adults alike a way to get home without driving, so services like cabs, encouraging designated drivers and letting inebriated adults sleep in their cars if necessary without getting rousted by the police if that is called for.
And while I'm on the subject of our overworked yet "state grant funded" police department, I seem to find the police sitting in their cars a lot lately at speed traps all around town with their lights off at night and also during the day, by the Hopmonk on the left hand side of the street when it hits the 25 MPH sign, in the empty lot across from the MacDonalds, in the Foster Freeze parking lot, in the mortuary parking lot across from the Post Office, on McFarlane at Lynch Rd, on Huntley at High St., and on the various streets that cross Bodega from the Main Street to Pleasant Hill when it's also 25 MPH.
Again, I'm not advocating speeding, but it seems like our limited and shrinking tax dollars, the money we pay to our police force to keep us safe are used to get the "low hanging fruit crimes" and now through entrapment. How low have we sunk?
Perhaps it's time to start a movement to take over the City Council and elect a majority that actually reflects the consciousness and values of the city we live in, and then make appropriate changes for the department heads like the police chief if they continue with these tactics. It takes about 2000 to 1500 votes to elect City Council member these days. It would take a serious voter registration drive and convince the youth to get out and vote, but with these small numbers, it's definitely in the realm of possibility. I know a lot of people will react by stating they enjoy living in a police state where you don't mind getting pulled over for no reason, like pulling out of the Hopmonk parking lot even if they did not drink one drop and weren't even at that establishment, but had a "license plate light bulb out", but I'm kind of sick of it.
Utah man caught in Sebastopol sting
By JULIE JOHNSON
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
Published: Sunday, June 19, 2011 at 6:58 p.m.
A Utah man was arrested over the weekend in Sebastopol during a police undercover operation aimed at catching adults who sell alcohol to minors.
Working with police, three minors — two boys and a girl — made 29 attempts to get an adult to buy alcohol for them between 5 and 9 p.m. Saturday, Sebastopol Police Officer David Edney said.
They focused their efforts at nine businesses popular among customers seeking to buy alcohol, he said.
Kelly Roger Smith, 24, who is in the area from Utah, was arrested at about 7 p.m. in the town Plaza on suspicion of buying alcohol for minors, Edney said.
Nathan Mark Demartini, 19, of Sebastopol was arrested in the Safeway parking lot on suspicion of smoking marijuana, a violation of his probation terms, officials said.
Underage alcohol-buying sting nets one in Sebastopol
By RANDI ROSSMANN
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
Published: Monday, June 13, 2011 at 10:34 a.m.
Teens working with Sebastopol police attempted to get people to buy them alcohol in town Saturday night and in 22 attempts they had one person agree.
Officers arrested Ricardo Herrera Hernandez, 21, of Sebastopol, on suspicion he provided alcohol to a minor, a misdemeanor crime, reported Officer Dennis Colthurst.
The teens also tried to buy alcohol themselves at five businesses but were turned down each time, Colthurst said.
Officers conducted the operation Saturday night from 5 -8:30 p.m.
The teens approached people at six locations as they approached the business, telling customers they were under 21 years and hoped the person would buy them some alcohol, Colthurst said.
At the 7-Eleven store on Pleasant Hill Avenue, Hernandez agreed and they gave him money. The young man bought them each a 24-ounce can of beer, Colthurst said.
Officers arrested him nearby. They cited him and released him to appear in court on an appointed date.
The effort was funded by a state grant aimed at reducing teen access to alcohol.
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
I'm not advocating underage drinking, but really? Is this is a priority in our town, the police arranging stings, rather than solving serious crimes like burglaries, domestic violence, assaults, rape, etc?
I have a question for you. Are you telling us that you believe that police officers should simply be REACTIVE to crimes instead of PROACTIVE in preventing the crimes in the first place? I come to this conclusion based on your "arranging stings instead of SOLVING..." - arranging something is being proactive, while solving is reactive. What does drinking have to do with the serious crimes you listed? https://wikibin.org/articles/2007-de...rape-case.html < a link to an example. The De Anza baseball team allegedly raping an underage girl whose BAC was .27
I'm just curious if you know about the effects of alcohol on the human body. I believe that many will tell say that one of the effects is to repress inhibition, therefore opening the way to making unwise choices. Unwise choices like being loud, obnoxious, violent, etc. If you need an example, look at Quebec after they lost Game 7 of the NHL Stanley Cup. You think that was a bunch of sober people? I'd rather see the ounce of prevention than wait for the pound of cure.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
And while I'm on the subject of our overworked yet "state grant funded" police department, I seem to find the police sitting in their cars a lot lately at speed traps all around town with their lights off at night and also during the day,
1. By the Hopmonk on the left hand side of the street when it hits the 25 MPH sign.
2. In the empty lot across from the McDonalds.
3. In the Foster Freeze parking lot.
4. In the mortuary parking lot across from the Post Office.
5. On McFarlane at Lynch Rd.
6. On Huntley at High St.
7. Various streets that cross Bodega from Main Street to Pleasant Hill when it's also 25 MPH.
Again, I'm not advocating speeding, but it seems like our limited and shrinking tax dollars, the money we pay to our police force to keep us safe are used to get the "low hanging fruit crimes" and now through entrapment. How low have we sunk?
Personally, I wish they'd station a couple of cops full-time at the end of Main Street as you pass the Valero station. With the number of people who've cut me off by speeding around that corner, making unsafe lane changes, then slamming on their brakes not to rear-end the car in front of them, Sebastopol could become independent of any need for state funding. Properly spread around, they could pay for the salaries of the cops, AND give each school in the district at least $100,000 per year from the fines they'd generate.
I numbered your "speed trap" locations to make them easier to address:
1. Located about 100 yards from a MAJOR bike/pedestrian crossing at the end of the Joe Rodota Trail. During daylight hours, it's nearly a 50/50 chance that I stop for a pedestrian there.
2. Located at the "merge" where the cars I mention above like to speed.
3. I believe there's a crosswalk just on the other side of Foster's Freeze, located near the Bee Kind store.
4. Mortuary parking lot - perfect location to watch cars speed through the crosswalk...because they're worried about taking ten seconds to stop for pedestrians, regardless of the flashing lights.
5. A tee intersection where people sometimes forget to stop, or remember there's cross traffic.
6. Can't see any logical reason for this spot...
7. Not sure if you've bothered to notice, but technically speaking, nearly the ENTIRE stretch you mention is RESIDENTIAL (couple of offices, fire station and school notwithstanding). How would you feel if people decided to drive 35, 40 or even 50 through the street you live on?
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Yes, I'm suggesting I don't want to live in an Orwellian world entrapping or arresting those for crimes they are "about" to commit or entrapped to commit. You want to be pro-active? Work on job creation, end the drug war and put those funds into rehab programs. Use the money spent on "stings" and put that into the schools. Fund pre-school education for all so that kids get an great start in life, studies show that makes a huge difference, yet the cost is out of reach for so many.
Yes, I understand that alcohol can fuck you up. However, check out how it's handled in Europe, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age#Europe, teaching youth how to drink responsibly at an early age, rather than make it taboo and therefore an exciting thing to do would probably help, not hurt the situation. We tell our kids at 18, hey, you can vote, you can go to war and kill someone, you can be arrested and put in the real jails, you can get married, but you can't have a beer until you're 21. And by the way , it was Vancouver, not Quebec. Prohibition has never worked, period. With that logic, you might as well prohibit sporting events, since sports fans drink alcohol. And ban concerts, I believe drinking occurs there too. Drinking is a personal choice.
Properly spread around, they could pay for the salaries of the cops, AND give each school in the district at least $100,000 per year from the fines they'd generate.
Really? I doubt it. Do the math. We spend over $2 million dollars a year on the police in Sebastopol, over 54% of our budget. I'm sure that the Sebastopol police are already trying to cover their salaries and possibly have quotas (although I'm sure they will deny it) through ticketing. Maybe you'd support a complete video surveillance and ticketing system installed too. While we're at it, why don't we just install permanent check points at all entries to the city and search everyone who comes in town? That's not the town I want to live and I'd venture that the reason most of us live in Sebastopol is that we don't want government up in our business.
No, I don't want people speeding around town, and I don't speed when I drive. But I find odd the priorities the police are placing on these speed traps, as they have their cars situated so they are hidden from view. If they want to slow down the cars in these streets/intersections or make sure they stop for cross walkers, why not be out in the open and visible, which would slow down cars and make their point? The answer, is that by hiding, they they can ticket. If the police cars for example, would be sitting out in front of the post office and very visible, I bet every car would be doing the right thing. But they prefer to stay in the shadows so they can ticket.
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
Yes, I'm suggesting I don't want to live in an Orwellian world entrapping or arresting those for crimes they are "about" to commit or entrapped to commit. You want to be pro-active? Work on job creation, end the drug war and put those funds into rehab programs. Use the money spent on "stings" and put that into the schools. Fund pre-school education for all so that kids get an great start in life, studies show that makes a huge difference, yet the cost is out of reach for so many.
Work on job creation? Impossible at this point. The corporations have exported as much of the manufacturing base as they can overseas, and have raped America of its strength. In my opinion, right now it's a matter of paper shuffling. For every job that's created, one more is lost somewhere else.
End the drug war? https://lakeconews.com/content/view/20219/919/
Gangs and drugs - and a dead 4 year-old boy. He wasn't involved in either of those two...
By the way, putting the funds into rehab programs is removing any proactive approach to preventing the crimes committed by those on drugs, and merely REACTING - and that's only if they decide to quit and go into rehab. Someone who doesn't want to commit to rehabilitation won't change anything.
Use the "sting" money to fund pre-school education for everyone? Your only pro-active approach, but it does nothing to help deter crime for another dozen years or so, if it were to work.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
Yes, I understand that alcohol can fuck you up. However, check out how it's handled in Europe,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age#Europe, teaching youth how to drink responsibly at an early age, rather than make it taboo and therefore an exciting thing to do would probably help, not hurt the situation. We tell our kids at 18, hey, you can vote, you can go to war and kill someone, you can be arrested and put in the real jails, you can get married, but you can't have a beer until you're 21. And by the way , it was Vancouver, not Quebec. Prohibition has never worked, period. With that logic, you might as well prohibit sporting events, since sports fans drink alcohol. And ban concerts, I believe drinking occurs there too. Drinking is a personal choice.
Thanks for the link, but I simply ask my German (born and raised) wife how drinking is handled when I want someone with personal experience to share. Again, you choose to simply allow drinking, and its effects, thinking that if youth learn how to drink responsibly, that there's no one who will take it to excess, push the limits and have tragic consequences.
My apologies for getting the city wrong...I don't watch hockey. While prohibition never worked, regulating alcohol seems like a good idea in order to prevent tragedies. My logic does nothing to address prohibiting sporting events, and I have no idea where you get that idea. It merely demonstrates my point - the point that when served enough alcohol, even "adults" make bad choices. You would choose to allow teenagers to drink, and not expect to be cleaning up after their bad choices.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
Properly spread around, they could pay for the salaries of the cops, AND give each school in the district at least $100,000 per year from the fines they'd generate.
Really? I doubt it. Do the math. We spend over $2 million dollars a year on the police in Sebastopol, over 54% of our budget. I'm sure that the Sebastopol police are already trying to cover their salaries and possibly have quotas (although I'm sure they will deny it) through ticketing. Maybe you'd support a complete video surveillance and ticketing system installed too. While we're at it, why don't we just install permanent check points at all entries to the city and search everyone who comes in town? That's not the town I want to live and I'd venture that the reason most of us live in Sebastopol is that we don't want government up in our business.
Hmm, perhaps my math might be a little off, but not too far. Given the Main St. raceway, where I've been driving at 30 and someone passes in the left lane going at least 45-50 to beat traffic, that would be a few hundred dollars in fine money. Multiply that by 20 or so cars per day that I'm pretty certain they'd catch, and that would bring around $6,000 a day in revenue. My calculator tells me that would equate to around 2.19 million dollars a year. Paying the salaries and benefits of 3-4 traffic control officers at $120-150k each...That would leave somewhere north of 1.5 million for schools. Trust me, they would catch at least 20 speeders/unsafe lane changes per day if they spent half-shifts sitting there. And no, the flow of violators would never end.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
No, I don't want people speeding around town, and I don't speed when I drive. But I find odd the priorities the police are placing on these speed traps, as they have their cars situated so they are hidden from view. If they want to slow down the cars in these streets/intersections or make sure they stop for cross walkers, why not be out in the open and visible, which would slow down cars and make their point? The answer, is that by hiding, they can ticket. If the police cars for example, would be sitting out in front of the post office and very visible, I bet every car would be doing the right thing. But they prefer to stay in the shadows so they can ticket.
How is sitting on Petaluma Avenue by the first "speed trap" not out in the open? I see them every time they're there when I pass by. As far as why not sit right out in the open? Perhaps you haven't experienced the brake check effect - where some driver looks up and sees a cop car, and instinctively steps on the brake, no matter how fast or slow they were going. If anyone behind them is not paying attention, that's an accident waiting to happen. If you're not speeding around town while you're driving, then what are you so worried about? If they can catch people and ticket them for endangering the rest of us, more power to them. If you want to compare us to Europe, as you do in the drinking part of your response, here is something written up as a warning for our military personnel stationed in Germany.
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
RE pedestrian safety
walking across street by Seb. Public library -- a new glitch in what to look out for as a pedestrian! Car stopped at stop sign was not satisfied at number of cars to compete with so elected to BACK UP away from stop sign and reverse his direction of travel.
As I was crossing street (and had cleared road for cars visually) all of a sudden here comes a vehicle backing up at me! scared me half to death -- thank goodness his car made noise!
**********************
By the way the intersection at Bodega + library NEEDS to have the street labeled DO NOT BLOCK - people block it time after time after time...this is in the vehicle code people!
do not block intersections anytime, anywhere, you never know when a fire truck or ambulance is going to have to get through)
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by 2Bwacco:
RE pedestrian safety
walking across street by Seb. Public library -- a new glitch in what to look out for as a pedestrian! Car stopped at stop sign was not satisfied at number of cars to compete with so elected to BACK UP away from stop sign and reverse his direction of travel.
As I was crossing street (and had cleared road for cars visually) all of a sudden here comes a vehicle backing up at me! scared me half to death -- thank goodness his car made noise!
**********************
By the way the intersection at Bodega + library NEEDS to have the street labeled DO NOT BLOCK - people block it time after time after time...this is in the vehicle code people!
do not block intersections anytime, anywhere, you never know when a fire truck or ambulance is going to have to get through)
Major agreement on the Do Not Block Intersections, the one you mention is the place I was blocked from crossing for several minutes today by a large black SUV that was plenty tall to see that the traffic ahead was not moving. This was in the middle of the day, hottest time, so I was stuck watching my car's temp rise (and my own as my AC needs recharging).
Re: the "stings" - when they catch a bartender serving to one of their underage stooges they get to fine the server around $5,000 for the mistake, great way to destroy the livelihood of someone who is probably depending on tips for most of their spending money. Not to mention what happens to the establishment...
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
I'm not advocating underage drinking, but really? Is this is a priority in our town, the police arranging stings, rather than solving serious crimes like burglaries, domestic violence, assaults, rape, etc? ...
One of the main points of having police is as a deterrent. I don't want them running around like storm troopers or Mel Gibson, jacking up bad guys at whim. That's not the same as saying they shouldn't be making visible efforts to enforce public safety laws. It's not like they've decided that Tuesday is anti-burglary day, and Wednesday is bust-the-kids day. As others pointed out, they're hanging around a lot in case there's a sudden need for them. There's a lot of modestly useful things they can do during those times. What, you think firemen should be out landscaping or painting during their workshifts until the bell rings for a fire??
I bought my share of beer when I was underage, but that was selfish and I'm not proud of putting those acquiring for me under legal risk. A stupid kid thing to do, but they were more stupid than I was! It's still a law worth enforcing. If you feel it's not a fair law, that's a different debate.
Traffic laws, same thing. Too many people around here need constant reminder to pay attention while they're driving.
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
I'm against entrapment and think it's a slippery slope, when our tax dollars are used to set up stings, setting up random individuals and enticing them to commit a "crime". And it's obvious that this is not a problem with the low percentage of arrests. But where do you stop. Will the Sebastopol Police set up other stings just to fill up their days? Maybe they can start hanging out on corners and offering drugs for sale? Or tart up some female volunteers and see if any "johns" are interested. How about infiltrating some of our CPA's and seeing who's okay with cheating on their taxes? Maybe they could set up a sting to see if any of their own police are willing to take bribes? Maybe they could set up a sting to see if the city council are open to bribes? Where would it end?
Again, I think most adults are hypocritical about these issues, do as I say, not as I did. And with regards to alcohol, I'm being pragmatic and realistic, and believe in using common sense to achieve the least amount of DUI's and car crashes/deaths. And I put alcohol into the same categories as "drugs", which if you've read this recent article, you will realize that the "war on drugs" is an absolute failure". It's always better to educate, than incarcerate, but our prison industrial complex needs new customers.
https://online.wsj.com/article/SB123...271444981.html
I hope those two who were arrested, basically so the PD could write a story saying, our sting busted one person, yea!, have good enough counsel to show that it was indeed entrapment. I'm sure they didn't set out that day, saying to themselves, "oh, I think I'll go out and find some minors to buy alcohol for just for fun". I'd like to know how these arrests happened, how old the "minors" are, were they male or female that was the one that entrapped the arrested party. Since they only arrested one person each "sting", was their goal to just wait until they finally caught one person and then call it a night? Was the arrest the last person they entrapped? If so, then it's purely a PR stunt, "let's wait until we get one arrest so we can send the arrest info to the PD and get a headline".
In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.[1] In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informant or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person (see sting operation). So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity. On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime had it not been for inducement or persuasion on the part of some government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty. For example, even though someone may have sold drugs, as indicted by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then the person is not guilty.
Entrapment holds if all three conditions are fulfilled:
- The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
- Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.
- The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.
On the issue of entrapment, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by dysbtwn:
I'm against entrapment and think it's a slippery slope, when our tax dollars are used to set up stings, setting up random individuals and enticing them to commit a "crime". And it's obvious that this is not a problem with the low percentage of arrests.
... Entrapment holds if all three conditions are fulfilled:
- The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
- Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.
- The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.
On the issue of entrapment, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.
so you're not claiming this is entrapment? I'm not quite clear on your position.
I tend to be sympathetic to your point of view, but, maybe because of the way it's been hijacked I'm less sensitive to the idea of "freedom" in the sense that behavior can't be regulated at all. For example, the right-to-carry fight seems absolutely wacko to me although I completely understand the impulse that drives it. Maybe fighting over fringe issues helps protect our core rights, maybe it just distracts and diverts attentions. That's a different debate too. It also seems to me you're taking the position that selective enforcement is the solution to overly-intrusive laws. Yet another debate...
You know, most of the stings you propose actually sound good to me. Maybe that would prevent reliance on hypocrisy and force people to take public positions regarding laws they want repealed, instead of assuming that somehow they hold a priviledged position and are immune from them.
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
I'm just curious if you know about the effects of alcohol on the human body. I believe that many will tell say that one of the effects is to repress inhibition, therefore opening the way to making unwise choices. Unwise choices like being loud, obnoxious, violent, etc. If you need an example, look at Quebec after they lost Game 7 of the NHL Stanley Cup. You think that was a bunch of sober people? I'd rather see the ounce of prevention than wait for the pound of cure.}
#1 Please refrain from stating things you have no knowledge of. I am from the North and can swim to Canada and up North Hockey is very important and emotional, no need to add alcohol for the same result.
#2 I agree alcohol is a poison and although I believe this stupid money draining drug war should end like 3 decades ago, if I were to choose which one drug to outlaw, alcohol is the obvious choice. However, since it has become teen's forbidden fruit they abuse it. I know first hand from my childhood how alcohol wreaks families, but these "stings" are just show and if they have any affect it is too make kids want it more.
3rd Sebastopol police should be laying off not hiring! I have never encountered such a bored force of cops that they harass people, mainly at Safeway by shining their bright light into your car to make sure of what? they are not so bored. And to feel powerful, isn't that a common police officer issue, the need to feel powerful?
The police are to protect and serve not harass and lie.
Re: Your tax dollars at work-Sebastopol Police conducting "stings"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by luna1996:
... I am from the North and can swim to Canada ....
sorry for the OT comment but I love that.. it's way up there with "I can see Russia from my porch". (since tone's lost on the interwebs, let me make clear I'm not making fun of the quote - there's just something aboot that turn of phrase that makes me think it's going to turn into a snowclone.)
