A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Marcia Angell [is] a faculty member at the Harvard Medical School [and one of the] former editors of The New England Journal of Medicine. Her new book, "The Truth About the Drug Companies," is a sober, clear-eyed attack on the excesses of drug company power.
How does the drug industry deceive us?
*It plies attending physicians with expense-paid junkets to St. Croix and Key West, Fla., where they are given honoraria and consulting fees to listen to promotional presentations.
*It promotes new or little-known diseases such as "social anxiety disorder" and "premenstrual dysphoric disorder" as a way of selling the drugs that treat them. It sets up phony front groups disguised as "patient advocacy organizations."
*It hires ghostwriters to produce misleading scientific articles and then pays academic physicians to sign on as authors.
*It sends paid lackeys and shills out onto the academic lecture circuit to ''educate" doctors about a drug's unapproved uses.
*It hires multinational PR firms to trumpet dubious studies as scientific breakthroughs while burying the studies that are likely to harm sales.
*It buys up the results of publicly funded research.
*It maintains a political chokehold on the American public by donating more money to political campaigns than any other industry in the country.
For many years the drug industry has reaped the highest profit margins of any industry in America. In 2002, the top 10 American drug companies had profit margins of 17 percent; Pfizer, the largest, had profit margins of 26 percent. So staggeringly profitable is the drug industry that in 2002 the combined profits for the top 10 drug companies in the Fortune 500 were greater than those of all the other 490 companies combined.
Note: For an excellent 10-page summary of this revealing book written by the esteemed author, click here. For additional reliable information on the health cover-up, click here.
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
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Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
How does the drug industry deceive us?
*It plies attending physicians with expense-paid junkets to St. Croix and Key West, Fla., where they are given honoraria and consulting fees to listen to promotional presentations...
I don't doubt that a bit. When I worked in various mental hospitals and other treatment programs, it wasn't just doctors who received the "largesse" of the drug companies. Commonly, we'd have staff meetings in which we'd listen to some Big Pharma employee extol the virtues of their latest miracle drug, and they would give us little gifts such as pens, mugs, etc.--clearly a sort of bribe to support their products. Up until recently, I still had a Navane (antipsychotic med) drinking mug in my kitchen.
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*It promotes new or little-known diseases such as "social anxiety disorder" and "premenstrual dysphoric disorder" as a way of selling the drugs that treat them. It sets up phony front groups disguised as "patient advocacy organizations."...
I personally believe that both Social Anxiety Disorder and Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder are real disorders, though I have no doubt that Big Pharma misleads us in various ways to maximize their profiteering around such disorders, including exaggerating their incidence.
What complicates all this is that we really need a lot of the medications that Big Pharma peddles. I myself have a condition in my left eye that requires occasional treatment with a mild steroid eye-drop, without which I could lose most or all of the vision in that eye. And I've seen many lives saved or radically improved by various psychiatric meds, especially some of the antipsychotics, and conversely have seen many people's lives turn to shit whenever they went off their meds. And contrary to what many New Age woowoo practitioners will tell you, their "sacred", "shamanic", or "quantum" treatment is not likely to render the effective drugs unnecessary anytime soon, LOL! So we need pharmaceuticals, but many of them are snake-oil just as much as the New Age crap is, and I'd love to see some of these snake-oil peddlling Big Pharma pigs and the crooked doctors who shill for them go to jail!
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
... How does the drug industry deceive us?
*It plies attending physicians with expense-paid junkets to St. Croix and Key West, Fla., where they are given honoraria and consulting fees to listen to promotional presentations. ...
Was that taken from the book? I wonder when that information was gathered and who the ignoramus was who wrote it? ... the author?
Nonsense, lies and misstatements. Those who "listen to promotional presentations" are NOT given honoraria. That term refers to the fee paid to the speaker, who, really, SHOULD get paid. He or she is working! Nothing wrong with that. I know dozens of physicians and I know of NOT ONE who has ever been on a vacation paid for by a drug company. Not sure where this information comes from, but it's not true in my experience and I have a whole lot more than most people. A majority of my social circle has been doctors and nurses for the last 20 plus years.
Now start looking into the shady connections that drug companies have with politicians and you'll have some meat to report on. Of course, those connections are mostly with LAWYERS, not doctors.
Perhaps this author wants to sell sensationalized books more than he wants to share truth.
-Jeff
PS. I've never heard of a doctor receiving a payment to LISTEN to a drug company presentation. A free meal, yes. Payment, no. I don't even think that's legal. The relationship between drug companies and doctors is highly regulated.
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Ya know, choosing your medicine, what works for you to alleviate your symptomatic issues, is useful and comforting in your evolution. Allowing others to make their choices w/o labeling their experience in condescending ways (shit, woo-woo), creates a place of tolerance in supporting a diversity of lifestyles. Some people want symptom relief and some want the core issues of where, how and why the symptom really comes from to be changed completely, transformed. Sometimes people use the symptom relief to get to the deeper change. There are many levels to work with in this mystery of life. What is woo-woo to you, is a peaceful, conscious life for others, which is growing exponentially worldwide. And it works... bringing in clarity, fulfillment and openess to a very transitional world.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:
I don't doubt that a bit. When I worked in various mental hospitals and other treatment programs, it wasn't just doctors who received the "largesse" of the drug companies. Commonly, we'd have staff meetings in which we'd listen to some Big Pharma employee extol the virtues of their latest miracle drug, and they would give us little gifts such as pens, mugs, etc.--clearly a sort of bribe to support their products. Up until recently, I still had a Navane (antipsychotic med) drinking mug in my kitchen.
I personally believe that both Social Anxiety Disorder and Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder are real disorders, though I have no doubt that Big Pharma misleads us in various ways to maximize their profiteering around such disorders, including exaggerating their incidence.
What complicates all this is that we really need a lot of the medications that Big Pharma peddles. I myself have a condition in my left eye that requires occasional treatment with a mild steroid eye-drop, without which I could lose most or all of the vision in that eye. And I've seen many lives saved or radically improved by various psychiatric meds, especially some of the antipsychotics, and conversely have seen many people's lives turn to shit whenever they went off their meds. And contrary to what many New Age woowoo practitioners will tell you, their "sacred", "shamanic", or "quantum" treatment is not likely to render the effective drugs unnecessary anytime soon, LOL! So we need pharmaceuticals, but many of them are snake-oil just as much as the New Age crap is, and I'd love to see some of these snake-oil peddlling Big Pharma pigs and the crooked doctors who shill for them go to jail!
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
Ya know, choosing your medicine, what works for you to alleviate your symptomatic issues, is useful and comforting in your evolution.
Yep, but do you understand that a lot of what people think works for them doesn't really work? People usually feel better sooner or later regardless of whether they seek some treatment and regardless of what treatment they seek. When we start to feel better, we automatically tend to assume that the most recent treatment we've had cured us, when often that's not the case at all. Also there are numerous very strong psychological factors that can cause us to feel better even if the "treatment" has no effect whatsoever: the placebo effect, the effort justification effect, the please-the-therapist effect, "demand characteristics", the "confirmation bias", etc. etc. That's why we have controlled scientific studies--to screen out those confounding factors and see what really works as opposed to what just seems to work. The fact that you went to the local practitioner, whether "woowoo" or "allopathic" and got some treatment and then got better does NOT necessarily mean the treatment, as opposed to your belief in it, is effective at all.
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Allowing others to make their choices w/o labeling their experience in condescending ways (shit..
Here's my use of the term "shit" that you're referring to: I said that I "...have seen many people's lives turn to shit whenever they went off their meds." The "shit" I referred to includes things like people risking their lives wandering, confused, in the middle of freeway traffic with literal shit in their pants, not having bathed for months, because they're psychotically out of touch with their bodies; or the guy I know who cut off his hand because the voices told him to; or the guy who jumped out of a high window and received horrendous injuries because he thought the hairs on his chest were like butterfly wings and would allow him to fly (the same guy murdered a woman during a later psychotic episode); or the guy who was accosting children on the street with a machete; or the guy who stabbed his mom to death (I knew them both); or the people who hear inescapable voices screaming horrible things to them night and day. I've seen all of these things and many more as a result of people going off their antipsychotic meds. Does it seem "condescending" for me to label those situations as "one's life turning to shit"? I guarantee you that those who survive such experiences agree with my description.
I use "woowoo" to refer to beliefs that are not supported by anything approaching good evidence (though they can seem to be well supported by people who don't have much knowledge about what constitutes good evidence), including many beliefs that are based on blatant, elementary logical fallacies, and quite a few beliefs that have been thoroughly proven false. In other words, quackery and frauds. Can we agree that those exist, even if we may disagree on which ones are untrue and which are true? Or do you believe that no one is ever mistaken and no one ever lies? (And if you do believe that, let me know immediately, because I have several miracle products, and a bridge, to sell you.) If you object to the term "woowoo" what term would you prefer to denote "treatments" based on mistaken beliefs or outright frauds?
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...creates a place of tolerance in supporting a diversity of lifestyles.
I'm a big supporter of tolerance but not all things should be tolerated. For example, rape, theft, war, etc. are not tolerable to reasonable people. Likewise, people ripping off their brothers and sisters with snake-oil that doesn't really work, either knowingly (fraud) or unknowingly (well-meaning quacks who just happen to be mistaken) should not be tolerated. Quackery and fraud, like rape and war, are not among the wide range of lifestyles that we should tolerate.
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Some people want symptom relief and some want the core issues of where, how and why the symptom really comes from to be changed completely, transformed. Sometimes people use the symptom relief to get to the deeper change. There are many levels to work with in this mystery of life. What is woo-woo to you, is a peaceful, conscious life for others, which is growing exponentially worldwide. And it works... bringing in clarity, fulfillment and openess to a very transitional world.
That's true sometimes, but can you acknowledge that there may be many beliefs people have about what works that are mistaken or fraudulent? Could you yourself possibly be mistaken about some of these things you think work, or do you believe that you're infallible? Here's a challenge for you: instead of getting peeved with people like me who decry "woowoo", how about opening up your heart and mind to see where we might be right. A little education about what's good evidence and what's fallacious logic would be a good start. Here's a relatively painless way: read my monthly column in Wacco's "Articles and Comments" section. It will gradually, and hopefully entertainingly, clarify issues around how to judge the efficacy of supposed healing techniques. And if you see errors in my approach, you can correct me in the comments section under each of my columns. I'd love to have your perspective represented.
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:
I'm a big supporter of tolerance but not all things should be tolerated. For example, rape, theft, war, etc. are not tolerable to reasonable people. Likewise, people ripping off their brothers and sisters with snake-oil that doesn't really work, either knowingly (fraud) or unknowingly (well-meaning quacks who just happen to be mistaken) should not be tolerated. Quackery and fraud, like rape and war, are not among the wide range of lifestyles that we should tolerate.
In other words, you don't tolerate people who you deem frauds or snake-oil salesmen. Or is it that your knowledge is that of a deity and your opinion on what is fact or what is logical is the highest and best?
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Yes, it was taken from the points in the book. You obviously didn't read the article, and the person who wrote the book was a woman Harvard graduate medical doctor. It was right in the posting.
Some people would think, in disagreement to you, that there is nothing misaligned between politicians and drug companies as you mentioned. But is it even possible for you to consider that the AMA (medical doctors, right?!) do have political lobbyists w/their lawyers going after our congress members? They all work together as stated below.
[Lobbying Disclosure Act database, accessed 6/11/09]
The American Medical Association Uses The Same Lobbyists As Big Pharmaceutical Companies. According to the Lobbying Disclosure Act database, one of the American Medical Associations' top lobbying firms, the McManus Group, also lobbies for:
- PhRMA
- Eli Lilly & Company
- Merck
- Pfizer
The American Medical Association Uses The Same Lobbyists As Big Business Associations. According to the Lobbying Disclosure Act database, one of the American Medical Associations' top lobbying firms, Timmons & Company, also lobbies for:
- American Council of Life Insurers
- Bristol-Myers Squibb Co.
- Consumer Health Care Products Association
- General American Life Insurance
- Healthcare Distribution Management Association
- National Association of Manufacturers
- Teva Pharmaceuticals
I have wondered why it is so important for you to continually make others wrong using pointed sarcasm, when something is not in or different from your experience. There is a whole world to be in that includes a diversity of real life experiences that exist which may not be in your realm of awareness, experience or understanding. Just because you have certain experiences doesn't mean that they are the only ones that exist. Life is not so black and white. Your responses have often been as if you were being personally attacked when it's just an article to read or comment on. There is so much emotion that is projected. A point can be made clearly in disagreement without name calling.
Jeff, we may not agree on much, but I really attempt to be respectful, keep things related, and be responsible in how I present my responses. I call this the 3 R's of communication. I open a space for you to meet me there.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:
Was that taken from the book? I wonder when that information was gathered and who the ignoramus was who wrote it? ... the author?
Nonsense, lies and misstatements. Those who "listen to promotional presentations" are NOT given honoraria. That term refers to the fee paid to the speaker, who, really, SHOULD get paid. He or she is working! Nothing wrong with that. I know dozens of physicians and I know of NOT ONE who has ever been on a vacation paid for by a drug company. Not sure where this information comes from, but it's not true in my experience and I have a whole lot more than most people. A majority of my social circle has been doctors and nurses for the last 20 plus years.
Now start looking into the shady connections that drug companies have with politicians and you'll have some meat to report on. Of course, those connections are mostly with LAWYERS, not doctors.
Perhaps this author wants to sell sensationalized books more than he wants to share truth.
-Jeff
PS. I've never heard of a doctor receiving a payment to LISTEN to a drug company presentation. A free meal, yes. Payment, no. I don't even think that's legal. The relationship between drug companies and doctors is highly regulated.
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Yes, I agree that many things may not work for some people, but then again it may work for others. Humans are so individual. Every person will respond differently to treatments due to bio-chemical make-up, environmental toxicity, and psychological and spiritual issues. I know you are not oriented in a spiritual way but many are. And for me, this is what works in helping myself and others.
I don't have a problem with what you call placebo because my understanding of illness and conditions is about how and what people believe about themselves and their environment which affect what they create in their lives to learn from. That is my profession and the way I have lived my life for 35 years.
Some people may feel better eventually in a treatment they seek, and then some people get better quickly, even instantly, and then some people die. You might believe or think that 'we' assume that a most recent treatment that makes us feel better, is the cure, but I don't really believe in cures. I believe in transformation. That's why I spoke of this and said that what you were working with is symptom relief. And I'm glad it works for you to help you live your life.
I made a mistake, and so I apologize when I mentioned how you used "shit" in a certain way. It was "crap" in referring to being condescending in your statement,"...but many of them are snake-oil just as much as the New Age crap is."
I hear you about people who have had very strong psychological disorientation. I have worked professionally with people who have deep trauma and abuse, and who have acted it out in horrendous ways. I have written books on the subject. I have several people close to me that committed suicide including a close relative. I have deep compassion and can understand how difficult it must have been for you to work in these situations. But I don't believe that what is considered "controlled studies" are always that way by independent researchers who aren't politically-oriented. (I have posted other articles from verifiable sources before about this as well as in this article.) The side-effects of psychotropic drugs can often be worse than the symptom, and the real core issues are not gotten to. And I'm not saying that this is true in every case. I said in my last writing that "Sometimes people use the symptom relief to get to the deeper change."
Again, your logic in what you feel is not being supported by "anything approaching good evidence" is subjective to your belief system. I could show you well-known medical doctors who have done research (which I have posted before) or doctors who are true healers, and you and some others on the forum would possibly label them crazy, inept, or woo-woo's because there is a disagreement of perception, a fear of deception.
Perhaps you have not heard of Dr. Hue Len. He was a psychiatrist who sat in a office at Hawaii State Hospital in a lock-down unit for 3 years (from '83 to '86), full of patients who were killers, psychopaths, rapists and criminally insane, never once meeting with any of them nor prescribing medication. The staff was always "sick" taking leaves of absence to stay away from the place. No one wanted to work there. Through an ancient prayer of love and forgiveness repeated over and over while looking at each patient's file, the unit was completely closed down three years later. The patients got well. The staff wanted to work there, but people were being released. Only 2 people didn't get well, because they had just been transferred to that unit as it was closing down. This is documented. His belief and orientation is through an ancient Hawaiian healing art called Ho'oponopono. All things that are not of health are considered coming from past memories, and they are to be cleaned constantly within oneself. The understanding is that we are all 100% responsible for everything that we perceive in our life/reality. If we see it, then it's within the scope of our perception and we need to clean where it exists w/in ourselves. That's not blaming ourselves but responsibility to the perception. It is a spiritual perspective that may not be of your agreement, yet it is transforming lives. The proof is in the pudding for those who have been in the process of this transformation.
I agree that there are beliefs that do not serve us and some that do. What I define as 'logical' is patterning of behavior that supports well-thought out choices of action. Each person is unique in what works for them. I don't necessarily feel that many beliefs are logical, I don't even feel this world is logical in my understanding but it's an interesting experience, and I look what I'm learning from it and if it serves me in some way to hold onto a perception that feels misaligned. I clear from this place.
And people act from those "illogical" places because 88% of our beliefs are actually subconscious or unconscious, and we project our inner perceptions into our world from that place. I read somewhere that our brain receives & processes 40 GB of information very sec. (4 movies/ sec). A standard DVD movie is 10 GB so that means that you are receiving 4X the amount of info every sec. Only 2000 KB is conscious. The subconscious is 59,000X stronger (strength) & faster (speed) than the conscious mind. If we have a thought that is conscious, different than the subconscious, the subconscious overrides it 59,000X, thus has a stronger manifestation.
As far as tolerance, if a person choices doesn't affect you or another in a harmful way, that's what I was referring to as "tolerance in supporting a diversity of lifestyles."
I do not belief I'm infallible as I am human. I appreciate this about myself. I'm open to learning, and I attempt to work from a place of wonderment as life is just so interesting with a diversity of experiences and levels of truth.
I am not peeved at you at all, Dixon. I just point out patterns of communication that are expressed in a demeaning or condescending way. We have had this conversation before. I know you want to be heard and understood. We all do. In my heart of hearts, I truly believe that this planet will not change to a place of peace unless we start with ourselves in cleaning up the way we think, act and address others, which to me, starts as an inside job.
I appreciate your offer to join your post, but in all honesty, my focus needs to go with what is most important in my life, what I'm creating to support the transition in the world at a larger scope. I have just formed an LLC healing institute with 3 other partners, am teaching, working with clients privately, writing, traveling and being a grandma. I bring articles onboard for people's consideration, but I must limit my comments and conversations. As it is, it's after 2:30 AM now. Thank you for this conversation!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:
Yep, but do you understand that a lot of what people think works for them doesn't really work? People usually feel better sooner or later regardless of whether they seek some treatment.......
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by someguy:
In other words, you don't tolerate people who you deem frauds or snake-oil salesmen.
It's not really about what I deem to be true; I'm not the arbiter of truth. Who the hell am I anyway? I'm a nobody, but I'm entitled to my opinion, like you and everyone else, and if you think I'm mistaken I wanna hear you make your case. Can we agree, someguy, that where there is human enterprise, there will be both frauds and honest mistakes, and we can do much better in recognizing those with a little education about evidence, logic, etc.?
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Or is it that your knowledge is that of a deity...
I hope everyone understands that my screen handle "Deity" is a joke.
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...and your opinion on what is fact or what is logical is the highest and best?
Of course not. I never said nor implied that, did I, someguy? I'm no expert. I've been dead wrong about even my most basic beliefs more than once in the past, and I assume I'm wrong about some of my current beliefs. That's true of all of us, right? If we put our heads together, and learn about how to reason better instead of just sharing beliefs based on elementary fallacies, we can all benefit.
I do know a bit more than most people about how to assess claims. I can smell a logical fallacy a mile away, and have learned, through years of study and practice, some cool stuff that really sheds light on what's likely to be true and what isn't. That doesn't make me perfect or infallible or always right, and I've never taken that position. But for those who really want to be disabused of some of their fallacies (and I sure do!), I can be helpful, and I hope they'll help me with my mistakes too.
Unfortunately, most people seem to get very defensive when someone suggests they may be wrong about something. Everyone seems comfortable knowing that they're not the best cook or the best mechanic or the best musician in town, but we tend to believe that we can think just as well as anyone else in the world. It's just not true; we can always learn more, especially from good thinkers who disagree with us. But most people don't want to. They get caught up in the ape-games of "Who's dominating whom", and they'd rather be stuck in their comfortable delusions than to be corrected.
Now I have a question for you: Are you angry with me, as it seems? And if so, why?
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
Yes, it was taken from the points in the book. You obviously didn't read the article, and the person who wrote the book was a woman Harvard graduate medical doctor. It was right in the posting. ...
Based on my experience and knowledge, I immediately came to the conclusion the author of that opening statement is a liar. That statement is NOT true. No, I didn't read the article. I try to stick with writings from credible sources.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
... I have wondered why it is so important for you to continually make others wrong using pointed sarcasm, when something is not in or different from your experience. ...
I don't "make others wrong." I do point it out when they ARE wrong. If my source is my experience rather than an otherwise solid fact, I usually qualify my comments as you have seen.
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Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
... Life is not so black and white. Your responses have often been as if you were being personally attacked when it's just an article to read or comment on. There is so much emotion that is projected. A point can be made clearly in disagreement without name calling. ...
Yes, not so black and white. I often point that out. See? We agree on yet another point. And yes, you offend me and my family with a whole lot of the nonsense you post here. When it's clearly wrong, I point that out. Sometimes it really is black and white. I don't consider labeling a liar a liar name calling when it's the truth. I could call them an asshole and that would be name calling. Hmmm. Yes, I do get emotional about it when you or the author of this book tar a noble profession with "facts" that aren't facts. I will point that out.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
... Jeff, we may not agree on much, but I really attempt to be respectful, keep things related, and be responsible in how I present my responses. I call this the 3 R's of communication. I open a space for you to meet me there.
But I don't respect lies. I don't and I won't. I have little respect for sensationalism especially when it paints a picture that is largely untrue. The medical industry (and it IS an industry, with all the warts that go along with a for-profit industry) is far more noble and free of "evil" than almost any other. Just like police forces, most of them are good folks doing the best they can to help people. Unlike police forces, there are almost never groups of insider criminals taking advantage of people and systems for their own aggrandizement and enrichment. When that happens among medical professionals they are usually individual cases, or they are corporations behaving badly based on the non-medical management calling the shots.
There have been a whole lot of problems with the politicizing of the medical industry and the medicalizing of everyday emotions and physical processes. I'll agree with you on many points in these areas. Some of the behavior of large drug companies has been appalling, most especially that of Eli Lilly. I think the for-profit model of delivering health care has proven to be a failure in this country. The fact that doctors earn less than lawyers, bankers and MBAs is a failure of this society. Healing should pay better than causing pain, especially when healing requires twice the years of training (or more).
I realize you have a personal axe to grind with the medical industry. I have a few myself. However, when I read an article critical of the industry or of individuals within the industry, I read with my critical mind wide open and attempt to understand the biases of the author, unlike most in the "alternative" crowd, who wish to believe anything that supports their preconceived notions and resist any science that doesn't.
-Jeff
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:
It's not really about what I deem to be true;.....
Now I have a question for you: Are you angry with me, as it seems? And if so, why?
Hey Dixon,
I'm totally not angry with you bud, I'm sorry if I came across that way to you. I am slightly disturbed by some of the things you mentioned such as equating healing modalities that you claim to be woowoo to rape and war. Where is the tolerance in that? I understand your concern for the safety of others, but don't we all have freedom of choice? Who are you to come in with your supposed superior logic to that of someone who sees someone you deem to be a woowoo and tell that person that they are feeding into a practice that is just as bad as rape and war? It sounds to me as if you are angry with what is outside your realm of logic and almost as if you would be glad to lead a crusade against such woowooness. Maybe you could clarify what you meant when you said "Quackery and fraud, like rape and war, are not among the wide range of lifestyles that we should tolerate."
The problem with logic is that logic can be framed differently depending on the paradigm you find yourself in. Knowledge is always limited, therefor logic is always limited. Krishnamurti examined this topic very well if you have any time to look into his work on the subject... Have you ever tried an alternative healing technique, or a modality that you might consider woowoo and new-agey? If not Dixon, why not?
I agree with you about there being both frauds and honest mistakes, and we can do much better in recognizing those with a little education about evidence, logic, etc. Although I'd say again that our knowledge is always limited and that even if all the logic and evidence points one direction in our paradigm one day, we may choose to step into another paradigm and find a whole new mass of logic and evidence that points the exact opposite way. It has happened to me several times in my life where by all reason I was right on, and then something shifted in my life to make the truth as it appeared to me, false. And we know that this has happened to you before Dixon right? You were once a conservative christian and now your an atheist left-winger, if I remember the story correctly.
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Nothing untypical in your response...point out things that are wrong when you didn't read the article, didn't even look that it was from a Harvard doctor, and I offend you and your family for posting articles that have a different perspective from what you want to read, but you get to tell everyone how wrong it is because it isn't credible in your subjective reality of credibility. OK. Go figure.:thinking:
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Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:
Based on my experience and knowledge, I immediately came to the conclusion the author of that opening statement is a liar. That statement is NOT true. No, I didn't read the article. I try to stick with writings from credible sources.....
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Braggi:
The medical industry (and it IS an industry, with all the warts that go along with a for-profit industry) is far more noble and free of "evil" than almost any other.
-Jeff
I completely disagree with this statement. Doctors are just people like all the rest. They are just as susceptible to putting their common sense aside in favor of what they've been taught as anyone else, and they do so frequently.
My grandmother has a stomach ulcer, and also used to suffer from a lot of pain in general. The doctors wanted to put her on NSAIDs, well-known to cause stomach ulcers! For ulcers, doctors will prescribe drugs, which is what they are taught to do. What they won't usually tell you is that freshly pressed green cabbage juice has been shown in scientific studies to heal ulcers much faster than conventional therapies, while providing pain relief. Of course, no one can make any money off of people juicing cabbage in their own homes.
If doctors are so noble, why would they not make a point of finding out this information (freely available online - took me 30 seconds to find it) so that they can recommend the most effective (and most cost-effective) treatment to their patients?
Often doctors will treat stomach ulcers with acid-reducing drugs. Ironically, low stomach acid is usually what causes ulcers in the first place. Without adequate acidity in the stomach to keep them in check, H. Pylori and other organisms multiply, and often cause infections. Lowering the stomach acid in ulcer patients will provide symptom relief, as acid can irritate the ulcer. But the root cause of the condition has been worsened!
A similar example is doctors putting otherwise healthy people on statin drugs to reduce their cholesterol levels, presumably to prevent heart disease. Statin drugs also dramatically reduce levels of vitamin D and Co-Q10, both very important for heart health and health in general. Cholesterol levels are not a very good indicator of heart disease risk anyway! It simply does not make sense to me to treat one weak risk factor by worsening two stronger risk factors.
I'm sure that the vast majority of doctors do see themselves and their work as noble. They are doing what they believe is right, and they believe they are helping people, and I definitely would never consider them "evil" for that. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A person who would take part in the examples I've given cannot be considered noble either.
Laurel Blair, NTP
www.dynamicbalancenutrition.com
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
https://waccobb.net/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Braggi wrote: https://waccobb.net/forums/images/bu...post-right.png The medical industry (and it IS an industry, with all the warts that go along with a for-profit industry) is far more noble and free of "evil" than almost any other.
-Jeff
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by DynamicBalance:
I completely disagree with this statement. Doctors are just people like all the rest. ....
I'm sure that the vast majority of doctors do see themselves and their work as noble. They are doing what they believe is right, and they believe they are helping people, and I definitely would never consider them "evil" for that. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. A person who would take part in the examples I've given cannot be considered noble either.
that doesn't sound like "complete disagreement". It sounds more like a qualified agreement.
I've always liked the analogy of doctors to car mechanics. Most of them get factory training in diagnosis and repair; few are engineers/scientists who really know the principals of the underlying designs. They do, however, have a lot of practical experience and skills. They inevitably rely heavily on their personal experience which means that they tend to miss things that are unrelated to what they've seen before. Plus, only a few get to work on the expensive, highly tuned race cars (patients with unlimited resources). Most have to move 'm through as fast as they can. They also have to deal with salesmen who show up with new tools and techniques that are supposed to be cutting-edge; the "research" proving their case usually comes from the sellers.
How could it be different? that's the magic of our retail, consumer-oriented capitalist system of health care!
Re: A dangerous dose-"The Truth About the Drug Companies,"
The fundamental problem with both the drug industry and the medical industry is that they are capitalized, for-profit industries. The health, welfare and best interest -- especially the long-term best interest -- of the American people is last on the list if it is there at all.
For-profit medicine is a disaster for us all. The sooner it collapses and we can come up with something that supports actual health, the better off we all will be.
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Posted in reply to the post by sharingwisdom:
Marcia Angell [is] a faculty member at the Harvard Medical School [and one of the] former editors of The New England Journal of Medicine. Her new book, "The Truth About the Drug Companies," is a sober, clear-eyed attack on the excesses of drug company power.
