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:copcar:WARNING SPEED TRAP: For those of you who live in the area...picked up my new shoes at Red Wing on Steele lane and found 2 motorcycle cops sitting behind The Men's Warehouse Store. If you are going westbound you cannot see them (which I thought was illegal) so watch out...they have been very busy giving out tickets for cell phone use and no seat belts. They are there until about noon every day.
Good for them!
The job of the police is to keep the public safe. In this case they are doing their job. Impounding vehicles of people who cannot acquire a license but have to drive to work, etc., is another issue. Consider how the person, who harvests the food available at the market and at restaurants, gets to work. Must he/she pay over $2000 to get their car back after it was held for 30 days in storage?
Attila
...
You're right, Attila, that is another issue, and since you brought it up, yes that sucks for the violator, but, like anyone else, if they are going to take their chances, they gotta pay up when they get caught. And frankly, it is about time we ALL start paying the true price of goods and services, but that, too, is another issue.
:yinyang::heart::ylwcar::copcar:
Let's start by insisting that the US gov. change it's trade policies that create poverty in other countries. Do you believe that people come here because they love to wash our dishes at restaurants and do hard labor, rather than stay with their families in their country? And is it possible that there is high unemployment in the US because jobs are outsourced to ensure high profit for US corporations? Let's direct our attention to the real source of the problem -- the corporations (like Monsanto, etc.) and the top two percent that hold the wealth that they rip off from us. Don't get me started and don't blame the people who are just trying to survive in this corrupt system.
Attila
Sorry, Attila, but this is not about the nationality of the perp, this is about the perp. If they are going to drive without insurance or a license, risking injury and death to innocent people with absolutely no repercussions, then if they get caught, they must pay the consequences. You would and so would anyone else who was driving illegally. If you want to adjust the laws so that undocumented workers can get drivers licenses, fine. And let them buy insurance like everyone else. Until then, I'm in favor of getting them off the road by all legal means.
I trust you have yet to experience the pain and suffering of a loved one seriously injured by an unlicensed driver. You'll have to take my word for it that will bring crashing to earth your fantasy of all-one, utopian justice.
Changing trade policies is a good idea. We should be paying countries the true value of their exports. Of course, we have to be willing to pay increased prices here for those goods, something that is LONG overdue, IMHO. In that we agree, as well as attending to multinational corporate greed. By all means, fight that fight.
But driving without any responsibility is criminal. Period.
:moped::redcar::hamberger::ambulance:
I don't agree at all. Violating an actual law, such as speeding or texting while driving is one thing. Getting your car impounded is a whole new topic. In every city I know of, it's an outrageous scam that the city cynically subjects its citizens to in lieu of honest taxation. Prices for retrieving your car are ten, twenty times a reasonable charge, just because they are holding your car, they think they have you by the cojones. The key is what percentage of those exploitative charges are passed through directly to the city. I'll bet it's a hefty percentage but I haven't looked it up and I await more information from someone who knows. It's like the garbage franchise fee, which I know much more about. Typically the city directly collects 15% of your garbage fee. For what? So that they can collude with the garbage company to raise rates and institute policies that insure the perpetual creation and collection of garbage against reasonable public policy (have you ever tried to get a city to go up against its golden egg laying garbage company, even just to negotiate its fee contract?) The scammers that pay cities, own those cities, and citizens can go suck eggs. What other similar fee paying scams can anyone report on? (How about building permits?).Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole:
Paul
Ted,
It has nothing to do with utopia. Rather it's about the undisputed reality that Sonoma County/California/USA economy depends a great deal on the labor of undocumented immigrants. And the people have to drive to their work place but the state doesn't issue licenses to undocumented workers. Do you see the irony in that? The perpetrator of the injustice is the system.
If you can appreciate the benefits you get from the labor of undocumented folks then it's your responsibility as well to help change the law so that everyone can apply for a license and drive safely to work -- with insurance, that BTW many of the unlicensed drivers do have. Undocumented immigrants can't get a license in California but it doesn't mean they don't know how to drive. When you travel to another country you can rent a car and drive there, no?
Are you aware that for a DUI infraction you can get your car back the following day but an unlicensed driver's car is impounded for 30 days at a cost of over $2000 -- most of that sum is for storage of the vehicle. Do you consider that being fair?
Local law enforcement is reconsidering their policy on car impounds. Perhaps you've read this article in the Press Democrat. If not, here it is: https://www.watchsonomacounty.com/20...mpound-policy/ Occasionally reason prevails. I hope so.
Attila
Attila, again, you're failing to acknowledge the very real results of unlicensed, uninsured drivers on the road. To wit: when they injure, kill, or cause damage to the cars of other drivers, they suffer no consequences. Assuming you, in fact, have a license and are insured, you and your insurance company would be responsible for your actions. You know that. That is the difference.
Even a cursory reading of the drivers license manuals of any state in the country will tell you that driving is not a right, but a privilege, granted to those who agree to adhere to the rules of that state. No one is saying "they don't know how to drive". They simply choose to do so illegally, and at great risk to others.
And to your point about traveling to another country? Yes, and when you do, you're required to have a license and proof of insurance. Thanks for making my point.
As for the local/national economy creating this situation, I think rather than continuing to perpetuate a system that not only devalues food, but the costs of the labor required to produce it, we would be better off agreeing to pay the actual price. So, I am afraid I don't "appreciate the benefits", as I don't see any. The current reality of our economy based on "cheap" food is built, in part, on human suffering.
And as to the article, whether it is 2000 or 200 or 2 dollars to get your car out of impound, I don't care. The idea is to stop the unlicensed/uninsured from driving, and if that happens only immediately after the person is caught, I'm okay with that.
:)::Yinyangv:
Ted, you got me started. You fail to acknowledge the reason why people MUST drive to work without a license because we DEPEND on their work? Most likely they have a license from their country of origin but cannot present it because they may be deported (then who would harvest the grapes for your bottle of wine?). You don't appreciate the benefits? Maybe if there were no food on your table because nobody was around to harvest it, you might be more grateful for what you have. Check the film "A Day Without a Mexican." Funny but not funny.
I don't know what you do for work but you must be aware that corporations are laying workers off in the US so they can exploit cheap labor in other countries. It's the tried and true plantation mentality of the privileged elite. With close to 10% unemployment do you think unemployed folks could afford the REAL cost of food if all workers were paid a living wage (as they should be) for the job of growing and harvesting the food? Will you take a job as a migrant laborer, following the harvests of crops, or as a dishwasher for minimum wage, cleaning houses, taking care of other people's children...? There is always more to an issue than what is apparent on the surface.
Driving a car may be a privilege but having food clothing and shelter is a human right according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (and to the compassionate heart) -- both of which have seemingly been buried somewhere under Wall Street. It's a beautiful document. Too bad it is not heeded.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Don't blame and punish those who are being exploited. Direct your attention to those who profit from the suffering of others and work to find reasonable solutions.
Now I must get back to my work. Enjoy the day.
Attila
...
Attila, you continue to try and drag me into a discussion about undocumented workers, and I keep telling you that if you want to change the laws regarding driver licensing of those folks, fine. It is probably a very good idea.
I am concerned with victims of uninsured/unlicensed drivers.
But since you seem to want to go there, if I am reading you correctly, you are willing to continue the perpetuation of undervalued food at the expense of those workers you claim to care about, because the current economy dictates it. I, on the other hand, am happy to pay more for my food, knowing that it was supporting decent livelihoods for those who were responsible for it. And trust me, if there were no one there to harvest it at the current wage, if faced with the total loss of the crop, the grower would increase the wage and pass the costs onto the consumer. It is because there are people willing to work for less that they are paid less, whether they are undocumented or otherwise. Don't believe it? Ask the unions.
I am more than wiling to blame someone for breaking the law, when they do it, just as much as I am willing to blame an industry for exploiting human beings in the name of profit.
:heart::thumbsup:
Ted, I'm not dragging you anywhere -- simply stating what is the reality and why. I appreciate that you advocate on this forum, for a decent livelihood in exchange for the work people do. I hope that you are also doing something to realize that goal. I agree. In the meantime, don't deny that you benefit from the work of people who must drive to work without a license because the law doesn't allow them to obtain one. Placing blame doesn't change anything. Action does. We can sit back and theorize about a perfect solution but some of us are active in protecting the civil and human rights of those who are doing the work NOW.
Attila
Is this NOW enough for ya?
How about this?
These guys were stopped before they killed someone. And I hope you understand that it is only coincidence that these three individuals have Latino surnames. They could have just as easily been of any other nationality. THAT is what I am talking about.
And with this I bid farewell to a sadly tiresome discussion.
:tiphat:
Two common speed traps on Bodega Hwy: Joy Road (can't always see them from either direction, and it's at the bottom of a hill) and Watson School. Just slow down and act casual. :thumbsup:
My oh my...it sounds like I opened up a can of worms with my speed trap notice. Yes, people should be ticket for using their cell phones while driving and having no seat belts. My intention was to warn you not to say that I don't agree with it. I apologize for not being clearer. Anyone texting or using their cell phones while driving is being pretty darn careless and that folks is my humble opinion. No need to respond. :wink: Enjoy this beautiful weather everyone.
Ted, You suggest that I read the article about two drunk drivers who have repeated DUI offenses and are caught with suspended licenses. And your point is...? I don't have the statistics but would safely bet that many times more licensed drivers are stopped for DUI offenses. I don't want drunk drivers on the road any more than you do. But that has nothing to do with sober and safe drivers who have to drive to work but the law forbids them to have a license. I see that it is "tiresome" for you to engage about the details why some people can't get a license though they provide necessary services and hard labor that make your life easier. I suppose that as a privileged person you have a right to think that.
"Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?" - Henry David Thoreau
Take care.
Attila
oh sure. They carry on as if nothing happened; once the cops realize they're unlicensed they're just sent on their way.Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole:
Sounds a lot to me like the rant I saw someone post on another board I read, with some international participation. The conversation turned to the cost of dealing with an injury, and some guy said apparently without irony that to get good care here in America, you have to be an illegal immigrant. Somehow I guess it never occurred to him he could get exactly that same good care by walking into the emergency room with a fake name and not showing any ID. Health care problem solved!
02.02.11
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Challenging the CHP
Yes, you can fight illegal speeding tickets
By Paul Sarran
Like most upstanding citizens, when we get a speeding ticket, we pay it. Without thinking. We are not inclined to question authority. Especially not the authority of the CHP.
However, when my wife got her third speeding ticket in the same place, on Barnes Road between River Road and Dennis Lane, in Santa Rosa, I thought, "Wait a minute—something's wrong here." I began to research. And thanks to David Brown's book How to Fight Your Ticket and Win, I learned that if a radar speeding ticket is issued in a location where the posted speed is not justified by an engineering speed study, the ticket is illegal. (See California Vehicle Code 4080040808.) Even if the officer testifies that in addition to the LIDAR, he visually determined your speed, legally he is an incompetent witness and none of his testimony can be used. That is the law.
Perhaps my wife's tickets were actually illegal, I realized. I decided to find the speed study for Barnes Road. CALTRANS didn't have it. They were very helpful, though, and suggested I try a more local authority.
Sonoma County Public Works had the study, and also issued a statement that there was no valid study for the road, which they provided free of charge. The most recent study dates back to March of 1989. Since, for the purpose of speeding convictions, the study is not supposed to be more than five years old, I knew we had a legitimate case. All three tickets were issued illegally.
Unfortunately, my wife had already pled guilty to the first two, as a compliant and trusting citizen would. We were left with a sense of injustice. We could have gotten those tickets removed by visiting the DMV with a copy of the court's judgment of dismissal for cause, but we have to take the time to do it. That is a cost.
So we requested a formal trial with the officer present.
In order to use these documents in court, I sent copies of the papers we had to the CHP, along with requests for the officer's notes from the back of the ticket. We also requested that the CHP produce a valid speed study as part of the discovery process. We got a letter back from the CHP with the officer's notes and a statement saying that they were not in possession of a valid speed study.
The day of the trial, several CHP officers present stated that the officer was out tending to an accident and would be late. We sat in court all day. The officer never did show. We were the last to be heard that day. When the judge offered all kinds of reduction bargains, we remained firm and refused.
The judge offered to drop the case, since the officer hadn't shown. We didn't accept. We showed the judge the speed study, the declaration of lack of valid survey and the note from the CHP that they were not in possession of a valid study. Shocked, the judge immediately dismissed the case "in the interest of justice."
That is what we wanted, and that is why we spent all day waiting: to have our day of being heard in court, and to have justice.During this process, we were told that the CHP "dot their i's and cross their t's," and that they would never operate an illegal speed trap.
This is a myth. All three of the officers who issued those tickets simply ignored the law. Officers have issued hundreds of tickets at that spot on Barnes Road—all illegal since 1996! I think the individual officers and the CHP owe their victims damages.
We paid fines, got points on our licenses, experienced raised insurance rates and could have lost our license or job because of points on our licenses. It is their fault, and they should be held responsible for the damages they caused. They can't say they didn't know. They are the first ones to tell us that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
This warrants legal suits against the CHP. They got it wrong, and they should have to pay for breaking the law.
Send a letter to the editor about this story.