Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Thanks Barry, I downloaded this one, it's a keeper. I think the only way we are going to get representation is through a third party.
The events in Washington this week have led me to believe the President and the Democratic party do not represent the working people in this country. Looks like another week of government of the corporation, by the corporation, for the corporation.
I think the people of Sonoma and Marin should work on handing over Congresswoman Pelosi' s seat to the Green Party. That would get the nation's attention and we could get something started.
12-09-2010, 11:44 PM
OrchardDweller
Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Sanders implies that the coming collapse of SS and Medicare/caid is due to those who oppose them. But it is now being reported that SS and Medicaid has some 55 trillion dollars in future obligations (that's 55 trillion with a T - world GDP is some 78 Trillion dollars to give you an idea of the amount of obligations we're talking about here). Whether you are for or against these programs, where are they going to get the money? Whether you are for or against all the wars, where are they going to get the money? We are all going to experience soon the consequences of irresponsible fiscal policy in a big way.
12-10-2010, 01:59 AM
Clancy
Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Social Security is not some form of welfare like the ongoing corporate bailouts, it's paid for by each individual American, all of their working lives. Hundreds of millions of Americans over many decades have paid trillions into social security, and it is the last, vast pool of unplundered American wealth, and now our corporate propaganda machine has poor Americans willingly giving it up to Wall Street? I'm appalled. You want to take away social security? Fine, just refund what I've paid into it for decades with interest, then you can give up your future 'obligation' to me.
How many trillions have been paid into social security? How much interest has been generated on those trillions since the program began in 1937? Those are figures we never hear. How many trillions have been paid into social security by tens of millions of Americans for decades who don't live long enough to collect? That's another figure we never hear, but I'm willing to bet it's a staggering sum of money. Who gets that money when you so willingly allow the corporate state to abolish social security?
This will likely be my last post here, as the plundered country collapses from within, facilitated by the democrats just as rapaciously as the republicans, I find talking about it on the internet more and more painful all the time, especially where the illusory democrat/republican dichotomy is still defended.
Just remember, everything that gets wall-to-wall corporate media attention, from Sarah Palin to Wikileaks to the 'obvious' need to abolish social security, serves the corporate state, NOT the American people.
Good luck to all, even those who haven't agreed with me on occasion.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
Sanders implies that the coming collapse of SS and Medicare/caid is due to those who oppose them. But it is now being reported that SS and Medicaid has some 55 trillion dollars in future obligations (that's 55 trillion with a T - world GDP is some 78 Trillion dollars to give you an idea of the amount of obligations we're talking about here). Whether you are for or against these programs, where are they going to get the money? Whether you are for or against all the wars, where are they going to get the money? We are all going to experience soon the consequences of irresponsible fiscal policy in a big way.
12-10-2010, 10:16 AM
Valley Oak
Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Wishful thinking but I hope you are right. That is, about the Green Party being able to replace Pelosi et al in the near future.
Because the only way that is going to happen is if Americans all over the country start voting Green. Something like that will only occur during and after our society starts collapsing. This is because the majority of the 310 million Americans need to start feeling the pain (and I mean pain in an awful way in their personal lives) before they switch from the Democratic Party to the Green Party in large enough numbers to be able to unseat Pelosi, and all the rest (both Democrat and Republican) with Green leaders.
The last time in American history that a major political party was replaced by a another one was in the 1850s as a direct consequence of the slavery issue, which split both parties (Whig and Democrat), destroying the Whig Party (1856). The Republican Party was born (1854) from the gradual demise of the Whigs. Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican in the White House in 1861 (election 1860).
Keep in mind the fact that in the 234 years of US history (1776-2010), major party replacement has transpired ONLY ONCE. And it was as a result of an issue so deeply divisive that it blew up in a bloody civil war where Americans killed each other in large numbers. I don't see that taking place any time soon.
And the last time that there was a very serious economic crisis, the Great Depression (which begun in 1929 and lasted until the late 1930s or early 1940s), no such thing came about, that is, that one of the 2 major parties in our 2-party system was replaced by another one. I very seriously doubt that the Green Party is in a position to accomplish replacing the Democratic Party even if the US economy does indeed collapse again. Social collapse is more likely with each passing year, unless trends change. You can only hope that people will listen in order to avoid graver results but history does not support that kind of public learning curve at all. Contrarily, history overwhelmingly demonstrates that very deep structural changes in systems like ours only come about with great disaster.
This said, it would be a great pleasure to see the Green Party in power and I will be among its voters, as I have been in the past many times.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Gene:
Thanks Barry, I downloaded this one, it's a keeper. I think the only way we are going to get representation is through a third party.
The events in Washington this week have led me to believe the President and the Democratic party do not represent the working people in this country. Looks like another week of government of the corporation, by the corporation, for the corporation.
I think the people of Sonoma and Marin should work on handing over Congresswoman Pelosi' s seat to the Green Party. That would get the nation's attention and we could get something started.
12-11-2010, 12:41 AM
OrchardDweller
Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Not sure at whom you're directing your complaints, Clancy. FDR?
And what on earth makes you think I'm for turning it over to corporations? Sarah Palin???
So where's all the money? It was entrusted to the government.
To fund an unconstitutional program.
Against the founding father's advice of limited federal governmental powers.
And against the Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution.
FDR, the socialist, 33 degree Freemason, confiscated the American people's gold in '33 and gave them paper Federal Reserve notes in return. He declared the country bankrupt and dissolved our form of government though the Emergency Banking Act, also in '33, following the central bank engineered Great Depression. And under this administration they stuck that creepy illuminati symbol on the back of the dollar bill. With the help of the controlled press, he fooled the American people into putting their financial safety net into the hands of the government.
But my question was: where will Social Security get the money? To fulfill their obligations, they would need some $183,000 from every man, woman and child in this country. Are they going to tax every citizen $183,000 so that they can provide for them when they retire?
Imagine if instead of trusting the government and paying into social security, the American people had taken responsibility for their own future by putting their savings into the only money authorized by the Constitution, gold and silver. This following video would explain the outcome of that.
But what about the ones who fall through the cracks? Prior to social security and welfare, help came from charities, churches, church hospitals, and the American people themselves. Helping others wasn't difficult to do during a time when there was no Federal Reserve stealing the people's money through inflation, or a federal income tax which was passed in 1913 and introduced at 1%. With only one income necessary, more free time was available. And with prosperity, fewer need help.
12-31-2010, 06:34 PM
Hotspring 44
Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
...But my question was: where will Social Security get the money? To fulfill their obligations, they would need some $183,000 from every man, woman and child in this country. Are they going to tax every citizen $183,000 so that they can provide for them when they retire?
Your question, in theory is a good one, but it depends on where you get your statistics from. I think the statistics you may be referring to is a red herring.
The following statement inside of the box below is from fair.org.
“The Social Security Administration predicts the program will be able to fully pay all promised benefits through 2042, when most baby boomers will be dead--even using pessimistic assumptions about future economic growth. Annual productivity growth is forecast by SSA at only 1.6 percent through 2078; in the years 1913-1990 (including the Great Depression), it grew by about 2.3 percent, a rate that would more than wipe out any future shortfall (2004 Social Security Trustees' Report; The World Economy, OECD, 2001).” (Link to this Article in full here)
The web-page which has many more links to many more quotes similar to this in the form of rebuttals to the big media hype are here.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
Imagine if instead of trusting the government and paying into social security, the American people had taken responsibility for their own future by putting their savings into the only money authorized by the Constitution, gold and silver. This following video would explain the outcome of that.
Sorry, I do not have enough bandwidth for that right now, but (without imagining) I am aware of the basics of that through information from the following links... (...of which one or more may be familiar to some of us because of past discussions on other topics)...: ... YouTube - Alan Grayson: "Which Foreigners Got the Fed's $500000000000?
If you have not seen it, In regards to this topic . I highly recommend downloading and watching The Money Masters How International Bankers Gained Control of America”. It is an eye-opener!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
But what about the ones who fall through the cracks? Prior to social security and welfare, help came from charities, churches, church hospitals, and the American people themselves.
Apparently during the Great Depression in the 1930s. That wasn't working so well for many. There were still a significant amount of people that were virtually if not literally starving and “falling through the cracks”.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
Helping others wasn't difficult to do during a time when there was no Federal Reserve stealing the people's money through inflation, or a federal income tax which was passed in 1913 and introduced at 1%. With only one income necessary, more free time was available. And with prosperity, fewer need help.
Yes, you said the magic hypothesis ... ...“with prosperity”.
What about those individuals whom are without (personal) “prosperity” and whom still fall through the cracks between idioms of society? There is no such thing as legitimately “living off the land” anymore.... ...Maybe in a literal sense there never was?... ... But it sure was a lot easier to find open space for those resourceful enough to know how to do that (then {1913-1941}) than there is now.
(The reason I mentioned "living off the land" is because there is so much less for the environment to offer for the amount of people that exist on the land now than there was between 1913 and 1941.
the reason I mentioned 1941 is because the economy didn't really get going until the second world war.
1941 is approximately when the buildup for the second world war, in the United States started "stimulating" the economy so to speak.
However that being said, there is the issue of "the government" causing a situation that could only be described as either the re-institution (and/or the perpetuation; depending upon demographics) of slavery or at least the situation of perpetual servitude for the so-called middle class and lesser. That definitely is what I think the main issue here is.
Here is Link to a very interesting program I heard on KPFA regarding just that:
Or directly download same program here. (mp3, 10.27 megabytes)
The program was aired on KPFA, December 29, 2010 at 1 PM.
(That KPFA interview may help the understanding of what's going on for the modern day computer age.)
01-01-2011, 10:50 AM
OrchardDweller
Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Hotspring 44:
EDIT
in response:
Regarding Social Security, the info I’ve come across is that the funds won’t be there. Ron Paul says this as well (and he’s always been right). Let’s just see if what your article states comes true - that the money won’t run out until 2042.
Too bad you don’t have the bandwith to watch the video but this chart should help. The Fed was established in 1913. They waited a generation and then confiscated the people’s gold in 1933 (and gave them paper in return!) We went completely off the gold standard under Nixon. And since then, they've been printing tons of money which devalues each dollar unit (more dollars in circulation representing the US's wealth - see 'Dollar Value Dropping' on youtube for a better explanation). Now gold is over $1400 and the analysts who've been right are predicting it to reach $5,000 - $10,000 an ounce as the dollar crashes. Our money isn't supposed to be paper. It's supposed to be gold & silver which has intrinsic value. It's important to understand that gold and silver aren't really going up - it's just taking more dollars to buy an ounce because the dollar is decreasing in value. Same goes for oil. And food. Prices are going to skyrocket soon and one can protect themself by having gold and silver.
It's very important for everyone to have a good supply of food and water. And if you can afford it, buy extra to feed others. It's a lot easier to feed someone than to have to fight them for your food, and after a few days people will kill for food and water. You can go cheaply with feed corn, for example, to make popcorn with. With flour, oil and sugar you can make calorie-rich donuts. I believe we should look at survival as a community, rather than as individuals. We're gonna need each other to survive and defend ourselves.
I’ve seen Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist and filmmaker Peter Joseph are considered by many to be controlled opposition pushing the New World Order agenda.
People fell through the cracks during the great depression but it’s important to understand that the depression was engineered by the Federal Reserve and the banksters themselves! Without the Fed there wouldn’t have been a crash (then, or now). And it’s important to understand that the crash was not a loss of wealth, but a transfer of wealth, from the people to the banksters.
But back to the point, without the Fed there would be prosperity, and with prosperity there would be fewer needy people. And many more people would be able to help the needy.
Re: Great Speach by Sen. Sen Bernie Sanders on War Against Middle Class
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
in response:
Regarding Social Security, the info I’ve come across is that the funds won’t be there. Ron Paul says this as well (and he’s always been right). Let’s just see if what your article states comes true - that the money won’t run out until 2042.
I don't know if what is in that video reveals the fact that Social Security has been being looted since Richard Nixon. Case in point here is an excerpt of, “The Accounting Cycle
The Biggest Accounting Fraud: Social Security” Op/Ed By: J. Edward Ketz:
January 2005 -- "If the President and members of Congress and those responsible for the management of the federal government were CEOs and CFOs and directors of business enterprises, they might be in prison today".
"The key to comprehending the subject is to conceptualize Social Security as one of the government's special purpose entities (SPE). Ever since the passage of the “unified budget” act...
Side note: (for clarification Look at; “Expenditures:” on page 4 of pdf Here)
...during the Nixon administration, the government has had the privilege of looting the Social Security funds by transferring the money into the general fund, from which Congress can spend on whatever pork projects they wish. This ingenious way of raising taxes without explicit legislation has allowed the president and the Congress the use of an extra $2 trillion over the years.
Unfortunately, the funds are as depleted as one of Adelphia's SPEs. John Rigas might even have learned his scheme from Washington! Recall one of the tricks employed in the Adelphia scandal. Rigas set up an SPE that borrowed money from outside investors. In turn, the SPE lent money to Adelphia and held receivables from Adelphia. Of course, the corporation did not consolidate the SPE with its operations, so outsiders did not appreciate the existence of the SPE's liabilities. On the other hand, Adelphia did not bother to recognize its debts to the SPE, arguing that they are off-balance sheet items. The scheme came tumbling down when the investors discovered that the SPE was sitting on a lot of worthless receivables.
Under unified budgeting, Social Security works the same way, with American laborers serving as the investors. The workers transfer some funds in the form of Social Security taxes to the social security fund. The Social Security fund takes this cash and gives it to Congress to disburse as it chooses. And Congress refuses to combine these activities with the general fund, treating it as an off-balance sheet liability. Some day this scheme will come crashing down".
A table of budgeting:
Unified Budget
Without "off-budget" items
Receipts
$1.8 trillion
$1.3 trillion
Expenditures
$2.2 trillion
$1.9 trillion
Deficit
$412 billion
$567 billion
Source: Historical Tables: Budget of the U.S. Government, Fiscal Year 2006, Table 1.1, pg. 22.
Below is the underlying caveat:
“Summary- So, to sum up: 1- Social Security was off-budget from 1935-1968;
2- On-budget from 1969-1985;
3- Off-budget from 1986-1990, for all purposes except computing the deficit;
4- Off-budget for all purposes since 1990. Finally, just note once again that the financing procedures involving the Social Security program have not changed in any fundamental way since they were established in the original Social Security Act of 1935 and amended in 1939. These changes in federal budgeting rules govern how the Social Security program is accounted for in the federal budget, not how it is financed".
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
Too bad you don’t have the bandwith to watch the video but this chart should help. The Fed was established in 1913. They waited a generation and then confiscated the people’s gold in 1933 (and gave them paper in return!) We went completely off the gold standard under Nixon. And since then, they've been printing tons of money which devalues each dollar unit (more dollars in circulation representing the US's wealth - see 'Dollar Value Dropping' on youtube for a better explanation). Now gold is over $1400 and the analysts who've been right are predicting it to reach $5,000 - $10,000 an ounce as the dollar crashes. Our money isn't supposed to be paper. It's supposed to be gold & silver which has intrinsic value. It's important to understand that gold and silver aren't really going up - it's just taking more dollars to buy an ounce because the dollar is decreasing in value. Same goes for oil. And food. Prices are going to skyrocket soon and one can protect themself by having gold and silver.
It's very important for everyone to have a good supply of food and water. And if you can afford it, buy extra to feed others. It's a lot easier to feed someone than to have to fight them for your food, and after a few days people will kill for food and water. You can go cheaply with feed corn, for example, to make popcorn with. With flour, oil and sugar you can make calorie-rich donuts. I believe we should look at survival as a community, rather than as individuals. We're gonna need each other to survive and defend ourselves.
it really shouldn't have to come to that should it? Do you really think it will?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
I’ve seen Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist and filmmaker Peter Joseph are considered by many to be controlled opposition pushing the New World Order agenda.
Good then you do better understand some of it than many; (assuming you been paying attention I'm thinking that you did.).
Yes, that is very well-done video. There is a lot of crucial historical points made and well linked together in that video.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by OrchardDweller:
People fell through the cracks during the great depression but it’s important to understand that the depression was engineered by the Federal Reserve and the banksters themselves! Without the Fed there wouldn’t have been a crash (then, or now). And it’s important to understand that the crash was not a loss of wealth, but a transfer of wealth, from the people to the banksters.
So you are saying, in essence, "wealth" was stolen not lost; correct? Or are you saying that the "wealth" was transferred without the people's actual knowledge of the ramifications of the government doing that. So therefore I think the question would be, was it fraud, theft, embezzlement, "an honest mistake", bad judgment, conspiracy?... ...or; what?:hmmm:
Again, I have a bandwidth issue at the moment but I'll check it out when I can.
Hopefully by now you have heard that KPFA interview with Max Keiser. After you've heard it let us know what you think.
I think it strikes a chord with what you are saying here. I think what you're saying is that, in essence; the looters that are in power will loot until some greater power stops them. I think I get your point. And I basically agree with it. But I think we get there on a different path; nothing wrong with that.:Yinyangv:
I would say more but I'm running out of time. It's time to shut the computer off, so that's all for now.:):
