redwood trees and depression

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

I can't confirm the science of "chemical secretion". I have been told that in the winter during the rains, the Pomo, Miwok and other tribes north of here, would not live in the Redwoods, and thought they were evil at that time.

Pure speculation here, but Black Mold is known to cause health problems, including depression. And damp, dark, cool, conditions promote its growth. That's why it is a problem, in the winter, for homes that don't get enough sunlight.

That's all I can recall.

My theory is that the dark shade of the redwoods exacerbate SAD (seasonal affective disorder). Not much light down there on the forest floor, even in summer. I am "blessed" with redwoods and I'm thinking of buying a light box to use next winter

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

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I heard about this back in the early 70's. I was living at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, it was guest season, and a man visited from Albion who said that he was feeling much better after getting out of the redwoods. He said that the California Native Ams. did not live in the redwoods & believed that they were inhabited by negative spirits. I have also heard that redwoods emit something toxic that prevents other trees from growing around them, this I heard from a naturalist. Barrie

Sylph you may be right about the darkness exacerbating SAD.

I found something interesting. The bark of all types of Redwoods countains about 70 % tannins.

"Redwoods cast deep shade and shed tannin-loaded duff, a combination that inhibits plants and repels insects."

https://www.metroactive.com/papers/c...ugs1-0139.html

According to the article about the only creature that scavenges the Redwood forest litter is the banana slug. The other animals don't eat these banana slugs, even when they are starving due to their tannin-loaded composition. Also, according to the article there is a lack of birds due to the insect repelling nature of the redwoods. This is also how the redwoods discourage competition from other plants. (This would also be a mold-inhibitor.)

So, I'm wondering if the high concentration of natural insecticide/herbicide also affects humans. These compounds are water soluble. Pure conjecture, maybe they are breathed in along with the misty air.

That's all I found. Just some thoughts.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barrie:

I heard about this back in the early 70's. I was living at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, it was guest season, and a man visited from Albion who said that he was feeling much better after getting out of the redwoods. He said that the California Native Ams. did not live in the redwoods & believed that they were inhabited by negative spirits. I have also heard that redwoods emit something toxic that prevents other trees from growing around them, this I heard from a naturalist. Barrie

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greetings, beings~

i have always felt a deep embrace, a cradling when in the midst of a redwood grove. many a time, i have felt safe enough to cry and let go when in their shadows. i'm not sure what "depression" is being defined as, but if it has anything to do with facing the sadness and unresolved shadows that live in us, i can imagine the redwoods' powerful mirroring and presence would put us in touch with that, which may feel "depressing." just my opinion, i think the "depression" felt is something that is already present, and allowed to be felt in such deep and tranquil places.

blessings~raven

I live about a 1/4 mile from Armstrong Redwoods Park. It is a very special place for me. I like to ride my bike there as well as hiking to certain spots that are like being in a great temple.
It helps me to get centered and I agree with sabathmaiden about the possibility of being in the presence of such giants of nature can be at least humbling which some people might interpret in various ways including a type of depressive mode.:Yinyangv:

Depression is defined as "Anger turned inward".

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Posted in reply to the post by sabbathmaiden:

greetings, beings~

i have always felt a deep embrace, a cradling when in the midst of a redwood grove. many a time, i have felt safe enough to cry and let go when in their shadows. i'm not sure what "depression" is being defined as, but if it has anything to do with facing the sadness and unresolved shadows that live in us, i can imagine the redwoods' powerful mirroring and presence would put us in touch with that, which may feel "depressing." just my opinion, i think the "depression" felt is something that is already present, and allowed to be felt in such deep and tranquil places.

blessings~raven

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Photolite,

Anger turned inward = depression. No doubt!

For those of who responded to a query about toxins secreted by redwoods, by responding with accounts of the surcease you gain from visiting them, me too. The beauty, quiet, peace and joy to be gained is palpable. But the replies about toxins were related to living among them, not just visiting them. I may have misinterpreted the question, but I thought it implied that too. That the concern was about long term exposure.

It's a particular form of New Age love bombing to reinterpret concerns about or claims of depression, as misinterpreted experiences of solitude, being humbled, etc.

Please investigate the psychological concept of projection, and reducing others pain, by only viewing it through the window of your own experience. I believe you wanted to be helpful, but diminishing things you want to deny as real, but for others is very real, is not a good technique.

While experience is central to who we are, and how we interpret it has a lot to do with what we experience, not everything can be fixed by just thinking the right thoughts, and feeling the right feelings.

Sometimes there are cause for our negative emotions, and painful experiences, which cannot be changed, simply by changing our attitude. And those who profess that we can, come off as incredibly insensitive, and oblivious to the lived experience of others.

They also come off as deluded Pollyannas in denial of reality, as some, if not most, people know it.

Sometimes it's, not "all good!"

Not trying to put you down or make you feel guilty, just expressing my response to some of the more "positive" replies, which I perceive as completely missing the point of the question, and the subsequent discussion.

Barry asked me privately a few days ago if I was unusually testy. Perhaps. As I write this I am waiting for my emergency supply dinner to cook, since I missed the window of open restaurants after the KRSH Backyard this evening. Low blood sugar. But my response to this thread has been considered over the past few days, at least a little in the midst of the information tsunami I've been riding in that time.

Be Cool, Stay Strong!

Well, I posed the original question, and I suppose I was referring to living in the redwoods rather than just visiting them. I very much appreciated the pertinent data and stories a few people responded with. I found it interesting and helpful. I was wondering if there was more scientific info out there, specifically about redwoods and depression, but my sense now is that there probably is not.

I also appreciated Mad Miles's "testy" post, which I experienced as an indirect expression of support. I didn't mean to "personalize" my question, but I acknowledge that I was asking largely for myself (though I'm not depressed now, thanks), and one or two of the "redwood positive" responses did strike me as containing a subtext of "Deal with your stuff and stop blaming the trees." It also seemed to me that some people felt called upon to defend the poor redwoods from my potentially defaming question.

I wasn't disturbed by those posts; I figure people get triggered in various ways, and hey, chainsaws are a reality too. Who knows? Blame the redwoods for a bleak mood today, stand by while they clear cut tomorrow?

Anyway, thanks Mad Max for calling it on the new agey love bomb-y stuff. I think there was a little of that. I can't imagine, for example, why someone would post "depression is defined as anger turned inward" as if that tidbit might be remotely helpful to someone who's depressed, much less an answer to the question that began this thread. Sorry to pile on, Photolite, but what was your point?

Great discussion.

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

... I can't imagine, for example, why someone would post "depression is defined as anger turned inward" as if that tidbit might be remotely helpful to someone who's depressed, much less an answer to the question that began this thread. Sorry to pile on, Photolite, but what was your point?

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Photolite, was merely answering the "question" raised in a prior post, which he quoted: "i'm not sure what "depression" is being defined as,". The answer to that question is: depression is defined as anger towards inward. That simple answer is rather profound and true, IMO.

"as if that tidbit might be remotely helpful"
I have experienced a rather serious depression, as I am sure that a surprisingly large percentage of you have, too. :tear: For me, bringing awareness of that definition during that painful time, and seeing that it was true, was helpful . It didn't make it go away, but it began to create a chink in that oppressive structure. It was one important lifeline back to sanity and health.

ah. I see. Apologies to Photolite! :):

Hola Waccobbidlyboodlies!

After my last reply to this thread, a couple of my fellow board moderators contacted me privately by email expressing their concern about the force of my words. Their suggestions for moderating them were quite reasonable and I considered doing so. But those words are put out here already, and they were closely considered by me. So revision seems a bit tardy.

Instead I want to emphasize that anything and everything I write here is just my own opinion. I make no claims to universal truth. Nobody appointed me high arbiter of truth in waccobb-landia. I'm just speaking/writing on behalf of myself, and anybody who happens to agree with me. The latter part is on them/you, I am the only person responsible for what I write here. (And I guess Barry for providing the forum, for which I thank him/you once again!)

Here's the main part of what I wrote my fellow moderators at 11:35 p.m. yesterday:

On the issue of "I" statements versus general statements. That's both a stylistic and philosophical choice. "I, I, I, I, I" comes off as self involved and at the same time tentative. I start too many of my sentences with I and it gets monotonous. If I was writing for professional publication (i.e. Gettin' paid) I would work on varying things more. I try, but with all the other tweaking I do before posting, sometimes getting rid of the I's is too much effort.

When making statements about others, yes, it is best to be explicit that I am stating my own opinion.

But in reality, anything we say is always our opinion, and nobody else's. Not everybody reads it this way, but in writing I encourage my students to get away from the I and make categorical statements. They come off as stronger and more confident. Often when a novice writer starts every paragraph, every sentence, every claim with, "I believe" or "I think" or "In my opinion", I cross it out and make the sentence declarative without the self reference, and write in the margin, (We know, you wrote this.)

***********************

Sometimes my style of utterance has been interpreted as arrogant. If anyone reading this is firmly convinced that I am, well, I doubt there's much I can do at this point to change your mind.

But I'm a very self-critical person. And there have been substantial periods in my life where my constant self-scrutiny has led to emotional paralysis. Thankfully, with the help of family, friends and professionals I've learned to moderate my own inner critic.

As with Barry, I've been depressed at times. Dysthymia was my psychiatrists diagnosis. I do not, and have not felt that way for over a decade. But I haven't forgotten what it's like.

So, in part my previous response to this thread was prompted by those memories. Along with experiences I've had as an activist, dealing with others presuppositions and some with an unfortunate tendency to minimize the painful experiences of others.

But again, this is just my view, as always. It is not in any way a claim to universal truth. I find the idea of universal truth to be highly suspect, for many reasons, and it's not an area that I spend much time on when thinking about the human condition.

And finally, Keep those Damn Chainsaws away from our beloved Redwoods!!!!

Especially if you're a God Damned Socialist seeking to corrupt and destroy our sacred ways here in America (U.S.)!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

Hola Waccobbidlyboodlies!

After my last reply to this thread, a couple of my fellow board moderators contacted me privately by email expressing their concern about the force of my words.

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You know, I am surprised by this. I am very sensitive to flaming, and also find it absurd when people on discussion boards get all angry with each other for having differing opinions. Isn't that the whole point of discussion?

Honestly, MM's previous post didn't strike me at *all* as requiring interference from moderators, or any sort of admonishment--it was hardly as feisty as some of the things I've seen here in the past, and I hardly think feisty is a bad thing. I found it well-phrased and even
unnecessarily apologetic; even though I may not have agreed 100% with everything he said. That is my opinion, and I state it with the full knowledge that obviously others here have a different one.

I find it really puzzling that he was contacted by moderators for a post that mild. In fact, I find it disturbing....if he's not entitled to express freely his opinion here, when he did not overtly try to insult anyone in any boorish way, I have gravely misunderstood the purpose and the pleasures of this forum. I have been away from it for some time, so perhaps there is a backstory that I am missing; but really, let's put our skins back on and stand tall like redwoods in a strong wind.

leela8,

Thank you for your kind and supportive words. And I realize your response was to make a point about others, not primarily to buck me up. But you did. (And I don't really need it, I'm fine, but it's still nice.)

I think the nerve I may have hit was that part of my post took on what for some here may be received wisdom. I'm speaking of, "The Secret", "The Law of Attraction."

A few years ago, we debated its validity here. It was a fine debate with good points made from many directions. While I agree that ones intention shapes ones behavior and that shapes the results we achieve from a mysterious combination of circumstance, chance, serendipity and actual things we do in the world that create desirable outcomes for ourselves (by the latter I mean things like networking, communicating, working to make things and to make money, creating and sustaining relationships, etc.)

But I do not believe that a miraculous force, based on the laws of quantum physics, brings us the things we desire, if we just want them enough. If that's the mechanism, or process, whatever anyone wants to call it, I think it's ludicrous. I gave up depending on prayer to God, back in my late teens. If when I die, I still have consciousness, and I find myself in a face to face conversation with ?, I'll have a lot of questions. She/he/it/they have a lotta 'splainin' to do! (Think Ricky Ricardo, "Luciiieeee, you gotta lotta ...)

From what I read here, what I hear in real face to face conversations, what I get from other sources, there are quite a few people on this board, and around and about this region, who do think that way. On the entire planet, obviously.

So those people and I disagree. I'm cool with it, the ones I know personally and like, I love dearly. The ones I know here, or are merely acquainted with in "meat world" I love as much, if not more than the rest of humanity. It's really not a problem, for me.

In the later responses to marcwordsmiths original post, I saw some versions of that magical thinking being expressed. That, along with those responses not really being relevant to the question or the discussion (my opinion, of course! It really goes without saying.) irked me. So I wrote why. After thinking for a couple of days about whether or not to even mention it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my speculation is, that my response irked those who think really, really wanting something, with the purest of intentions, will be instrumental in making it happen, per se, without other actions being necessary. For me, the desire is just the beginning, and acting "in the world" is a necessary and contingent factor in making good things happen for ourselves, or for anyone else. That's what's been my experience.

So, as for just, "hoping to manifest x, y or z."? Talk is cheap! Until someone makes you pay for it.

(Perhaps this thread needs to be split, to separate the process discussion from the toxic majestic redwoods discussion. Much as I love them, perhaps the trees nefarious fluff is directing our behavior as we write here? The trees are god damn Socialists!!! I knew it!)

The Feud is playing Bear Republic in Healdsburg this evening, and I've three days of newspaper to read and primping to do. I'm out.

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

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Blame it on the Redwoods. :hmmm:
If you experience the wonder of solitude at any point in your life, things do come up. Sit with them and leave the Redwoods to the wind.
Namaste

hey lydeeyah, that was a truly a useless, condescending comment. Sit with that.

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Posted in reply to the post by lydeeyah:

Blame it on the Redwoods. :hmmm:

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Call me crazy but I hadn't noticed anyone ascribing blame. I had noticed the original poster
making an earnest inquiry for scientific evidence to support anecdotal and historical reports that there might be a biological correlation to the incidence of depression and living in proximity to Redwood trees.

I personally found it an interesting avenue of research, as I had not considered it before, nor had I heard that First Nation peoples had eschewed living near them. As a mighty friend of trees since my childhood (they teach me things--profound things), I admit however to being averse to living within a forest of redwoods. It *does* wreak havoc with my physical health (which is challenged) and I always attributed it to the Dark and Damp effect. I had never thought there could be more to it.

It would indeed be interesting to know if there is a chemical or pollen they emit, or some other organism that lives with them symbiotically or parasitically that depresses a human's system be it immune or otherwise.

I lived for some time in Santa Fe, NM, and the wonderful piñon trees there annually cause half the residents to become absolutely miserable during pollen season, whether you live near them or not. While there is much sneezing and watering of the nose, much puffiness of the eyes, and much purchasing of tissues, no one holds it against the trees or holds rallies against them.

I think there is often some confusion about stating or seeking facts, and the desire to appear in all ways positive-minded. A fact is not in and of itself negative--it is one's reactivity to said fact which carries the negativity or positivity.

Ghandi was in no way inclined to deny or suppress commentary regarding the injustices in India during his time. It was in fact his boldness in facing and declaring those negative realities that allowed his commitment to ahimsa such power. But I digress! The point is no one on this thread has said anything politically or morally or spiritually negative about the redwoods! For heaven's sake, the guy was just askin' a question! Sheesh!

Gosh, marcwordsmith, I bet you never imagined your simple query would spark such fervor!

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leela8 wrote: "Call me crazy but I hadn't noticed anyone ascribing blame. I had noticed the original poster making an earnest inquiry ... I lived for some time in Santa Fe, NM, and the wonderful piñon trees there annually cause half the residents to become absolutely miserable during pollen season, ... I think there is often some confusion about stating or seeking facts, and the desire to appear in all ways positive-minded. A fact is not in and of itself negative--it is one's reactivity to said fact which carries the negativity or positivity. ... Ghandi was in no way inclined to deny or suppress commentary regarding the injustices in India during his time. It was in fact his boldness in facing and declaring those negative realities that allowed his commitment to ahimsa such power...The point is no one on this thread has said anything politically or morally or spiritually negative about the redwoods! For heaven's sake, the guy was just askin' a question! Sheesh! Gosh, marcwordsmith, I bet you never imagined your simple query would spark such fervor!

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Just to get back to the mythology about the First Nation people and redwood trees, for a minute. First of all, in those times we are talking an unbroken virgin forest of old growth trees along the coast from Big Sur all the way up to Oregon. I doubt any of us can imagine that. They didn't go there not because of "evil spirits" but because there was no reason to except for awe. There was no game there. Anything they might have wanted to hunt or gather was in the canopy high overhead and out of reach. Little grew on the forest floor in the shade of those massive trees so there was just no point of spending time there. Those trees were sacred to them, however, and they were horrified when the white men began to cut them down. Now the oak meadows just inland were rich with acorns, herbs, game and the rivers and streams and ponds were full of fish, turtles, waterfowl. Why bother with the forest? All this talk of evil spirits was yet another white man's misinterpretation become urban legend.
The black mold came with the white man as well. His habit of building the same kind of sealed box structure (that traps moisture, dust and spores) well suited for parts of Europe no matter if it's out in a field or under a grove of trees, in a desert or in a rain forest and bringing "proper" things from Europe that had the mold spores all over them.
The First Nation people didn't live in permanent housing like that, they'd move around with the seasons, like the bird and animal people.

A psychologist character in Iris Murdoch's novel The Message to the Planet states, "Yet all men [sic], even you, carry within their minds some sharp thorn, some bud of cancerous pain, which perhaps will never be activated, but from which, very rarely, they receive some instant spasm of incomprehensible anguish."

On the other hand, Robin Williamson, formerly of the Incredible String Band, wrote in his first song, October Song, "I used to search for happiness, I used to follow pleasure/But I found a door behind my mind, and that's the greatest treasure."

And doesn't the Bible say something about the kingdom of Heaven lying within?

Oddly enough, I think all of these statements are true.

Well, this thread has gone walkabout! It's what I love about this medium. I'm suffering from a deep emotional wound (beyond the usual ones!), newly struck, that I'm waiting to reveal to the world of waccobb. I would prefer Barry to deliver the news. I'm not sure I can do it without spreading the trauma and pain. Barry?

I'm off to the last few sets at Accordion Fest, see you there! Flaco plays at 6:00!!!

And I hear the jets in the background. I've some thoughts (duh!?) which I might put on the appropriate thread, if I can get over the trauma that I'm being such a drama... (king?) about.

'Zout!

Yep, its sort of obvious,
being in dark damp places for long periods of time will make you feel gloomy. the american indians were just stating the obvious...they called them spirits, we call it depression.

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Posted in reply to the post by marcwordsmith:

Over the last month or two, a few people have told me that redwood trees secrete some sort of chemical that causes depression. One person added that Native Americans knew this and thought that evil spirits lived in redwood trees.

The people who gave me this info all strike me as good, credible people. They don't know each other (as far as I know); these were three entirely independent conversations.

Yet I find nothing when I google, for example "redwood trees depression."

Anybody out there know anything about this? I'm very curious what the scoop is, if there is one. Thanks!

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:treehugger:There is NO QUESTION about whether Redwood Trees can cause depression! During that wind storm about 2 weeks ago, I awoke to discover our backyard redwood tree had dropped a big limb directly across my Kiwi Kayak, cracking its middle and rendering it useless. After I discovered what had happened, I was bummed all day. And as if that wasn't enough, the remainder of the huge limb made a sizable dent in my back yard - which, of course, is a depression of another kind.
stephen (I have pictures to prove it)

Aw gosh, you might have to trade that old wrecked kayak for a mystery train! :wink:

Well Landpaths has the Grove of Old Trees, a magical grove of old growth redwoods, on Fitzpatrick Lane off of Joy Road. When I am feeling funky, depressed or just generally out of sorts I go there and being there does wonders. I find the place calming, renewing and healing.

For me its a temple.

Gary Abreim

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Posted in reply to the post by sharonvirtue:

Yep, its sort of obvious,
being in dark damp places for long periods of time will make you feel gloomy. the american indians were just stating the obvious...they called them spirits, we call it depression.

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I had heard that redwoods, like the ocean give off negative ions - which are mood elevators!

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Posted in reply to the post by photolite:

Depression is defined as "Anger turned inward".

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Depression is your being telling you it wishes for something important to change.

Finally! An explanation for Guerneville.

:urgtgslpy::frogdance::wink:

inre: the evil spirits in the redwoods? I wonder if that isn't a misunderstanding.. it is kinda depressing to be in a place that is dark and damp most of the time.. I know some wonderful places to visit, with redwoods and beautiful creeks and waterfalls, but I know I'd be sad if I never got any direct sun for most of the year and most of the day.. I would hesitate to live there, as much as I love the redwood forest. My "spirits" would be low, for sure..

As was noted, a redwood forest doesn't really sustain much life, other than redwood trees, and maybe few ferns and other adapted plants. Only a few hundred years ago, the land around here was so diverse in habitat, and so abundant with game.. many places, but not so much in the redwoods..

I have heard that Native Americans believed there were evil spirits in the Sonoma Valley, and that they preferred to live in the hills.. seriously, I think the valley was probably very boggy and not too pleasant, and at least in modern times, it's really bad for allergies here, in the summer..

But it just occurred to me that the real evil spirits might have been the Christian "Brothers", or other "illegal immigrants", who enslaved them, took away their children, (for "education"), and their languages; who gave them diseased blankets that ended up killing most of them off.. who are "we" to claim to understand their reasons for living anywhere, when we made it impossible for them to continue to live here?

Scott.