"Psychic surgeons" rip off our community!

Brothers and Sisters;

It's no surprise that Meddie Arismende is coming back to Sonoma County once again; at $160 a pop, he makes $6400 in just 5 days of being here. When he shortly raises his price to $200 a pop, it'll be $8000 for just 5 days of work. (These calculations assume 8 sessions per day; with less sessions the totals will be less, of course) Thus, he is presumably wealthy from exploiting the desperation of sick people.

I know I'll catch flak from many of you closed-minded New Agers for saying this, but my conscience will not allow me to remain silent while this ghoul feeds off the desperately ill. Dig this: "psychic surgery" is always a scam, a fraud, a con game. It's been debunked many times, and some psychic surgeons have been appropriately jailed for this sleazy scam. I intend to do whatever I can to put this Arismende criminal behind bars where he can't victimize the sick anymore.

Here's a brief description, copied from the Internet, of how the con game works:

"Psychic 'surgery' is a type of non-surgery performed by a non-medical 'healer'. The healer fakes an incision by running a finger along the patient's body, apparently going through the skin without using any surgical instruments. The healer pretends to dig his hands into the patient's innards and pretends to pull out 'tumors'. Using trickery, the healer squirts animal blood from a hand held balloon while discarding items such as chicken livers and hearts. The patient then goes home to die, if he or she was really dying, or to live if there was nothing seriously wrong in the first place."

This simple description leaves out some details and variations--for instance, sometimes a fake thumb instead of a balloon is used to hide the animal tissue--but it gives you an idea how the swindle works. It's a sleight of hand trick that many stage magicians can do quite convincingly. Here is a link to a short video that shows world-famous conjurer and paranormal investigator James Randi doing a "psychic surgery":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjF1sUZEy2U

Note how convincing it looks. The difference between Randi and Arismende is that Randi freely admits it's trickery and does it to educate the public about this con game, while swindlers like Arismende claim it's alternative healing and do it to rip off desperate sick people. They make sure no one gets ahold of the "tumors" they pretend to remove from their victims, because whenever such material is lab-tested, it always turns out to be tissue from some barnyard animal such as a chicken, thus proving the phoniness of the "surgery".

Of course, I could always be wrong. I invite Mr. Arismende to prove me wrong (i.e., to prove that what he does is real) thusly:

1. Allow me to be present at one of his "surgery" sessions and to videotape the procedure from all angles of my choice.

2. Allow me to examine his hands just prior to their supposed insertion into the patient's body and at any other time during the procedure.

3. Allow me to examine any other place where he might hide some container of animal tissue (the table or bed, his clothing, towels, etc.) at any time.

4. Allow me to take the tissue he supposedly extracts from the "patient" to a lab for analysis, to determine what species it really came from.

5. Allow me to take a small DNA sample from the "patient" (small hair clipping or mouth swab) so that in the unlikely event that the "removed" material is human, we can determine whether it really came from the "patient".

If Arismende passes this test, I will publically apologize on WaccoBB and announce that he is for real! If he fails this test, he will take a little ride with me to the police station to be arrested for fraud. Fair enough?

Note that there is NO GOOD REASON for him to refuse the test I propose. If he is for real, he can only benefit from such a test, as it will prove his authenticity, and will cause a skeptic (me) to publicly announce his validity! If he refuses such a test, that in itself is evidence that he is a fraud.

Also, if he is for real, there is no good reason that he won't go to:

https://www.randi.org/research/index.html

and take the James Randi Educational Foundation's One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge, which involves submitting his claim to formal testing under a protocol agreed to by him as a fair test. If he wins (i.e., if he shows that what he does is real under the test conditions), he'll receive one million dollars! Think of all the good he could do with a million bucks, not to mention the pleasure of proving the skeptics wrong! Again, there is no good reason he wouldn't do this if he isn't a fraud.

Of course, since he is a fraud, he won't submit himself to testing either by me or by the JREF. Instead, I predict that he will respond to my challenge in one of the following ways:

1. He'll make some bogus excuse for refusing to submit to testing of his claim, and continue his scam as planned.

2. He'll cancel his Sonoma County appearances to avoid getting busted.

3. He'll pretend to cancel his Sonoma County appearances and sneak into town and pull off his scam more secretly.

To those of you who intend to receive "treatment" from Mr. Arismende: Wouldn't you like to know for sure whether it's real? You can! Simply insist that he give you whatever tissue he "removes" from you, then get it to me for lab-testing. Note that there is no good reason he wouldn't let you have the tissue; after all, if he's telling the truth, it's from your body; it belongs to you! If he refuses to give you the material, cancel your appointment or, better yet, go through with it, then go to the police and have them open a case on him.

I have spoken to the police about busting this con man, but they tell me that they can't open a case until a victim comes forward. So, I appeal to any of you who have been "treated" by this guy and subsequently realize that you were ripped off to come forward. Contact me at 707-527-6163 or [email protected] and I'll support you in going to the police and opening a case, so we can save others from such cynical exploitation.

Also, if anyone knows of a lab at which I can get tissue analyzed to see what species it's from (college biology lab, police lab, local hospital?) please let me know. If we work together, we can protect our brothers and sisters from a heartless swindler.

Love;
Dixon

Sisters and Brothers;

A few minutes ago I received a phone call from the aforementioned Meddie Arismende, who has been repeatedly advertised here as a "psychic surgeon" by one Veronica Torres (apparently an associate of his, as she's a main or sole advertiser for his services here in Sonoma County and books his appointments), explicitly claiming that "Meddie is a second-generation psychic surgeon. He is able to actually insert his fingers into the patient's body to remove tumors/scar tissue/etc without the use of tools."

Mr. Arismende told me that he is not a psychic surgeon, that he has never inserted his fingers into anyone's body and removed tissue as described, and that he makes no such claim. He said he was unaware that such claims were made on his behalf by Veronica. He told me that he is a different kind of alternative health practitioner (if I remember correctly, he called himself a Reiki master and phytotherapist, or something like that). He said that he doesn't claim to "heal" anyone (though his associate Veronica repeatedly refers to him as a "healer" doing "healing work" in the publicity posted hereon), and at one point referred to substances he uses in his practice as "medicines", then quickly corrected himself, calling them "supplements" instead. He asked me to post this correction on Wacco, and of course I readily assented, as I never want to be a party to misinformation.

If what Mr. Arismende told me on the phone is true, Veronica owes him (and us) apologies for repeatedly misrepresenting him on Wacco.

I must confess to being very skeptical re: Mr. Arismende's denial that he claims to do "psychic surgery". Veronica has explicitly advertised him as a psychic surgeon here on Wacco at least 5 times, going as far back as 4/14/06 (advertising one of his previous visits to our county). In that post, she referred to his visit here as a return, so apparently he plied his trade here before that, though my records don't go back far enough to include any earlier advertisements for him.

How is it possible that false claims could repeatedly be made in ads for Mr. Arismende's services over a long period of time by someone who books his appointments for him without his being aware of it? Could he really be oblivious to what is being said in such advertisements? Apparently he has rendered his services to scores, if not hundreds of "patients" in this county, many if not most of whom were expecting psychic surgery, since that is the service that was most prominently advertised here on Wacco. With this in mind, that he could have no idea that he was being advertised as a psychic surgeon seems bizarre, doesn't it? I can't prove this, but I suspect that Mr. Arismende purposely has others do his advertising for him so that he can distance himself from the claims made therein when they are challenged.

Veronica, our community needs clarification from you. Did Meddie induce you to make the psychic surgery claims? Did you ever observe him doing actual "psychic surgery"? Did he ever tell you that he has performed actual "psychic surgery"? If not, where did you get that idea? Does he pay you for your efforts on his behalf? Is it possible that he never saw any of the postings in which you made these claims, and could he possibly be unaware that such claims were/are made on his behalf? We need you either to tell us that he has actually made these psychic surgery claims, or to apologize to him and us for making them on his behalf.

To those of you who have been "treated" by Mr. Arismende: Did he claim to be a psychic surgeon? Did he claim to put his fingers inside your body and remove tissue? Did his treatment of you involve blood or other tissue which you saw? If you referred to his services as "surgery" (psychic or otherwise) in his presence, did he correct you on that, or did he allow you to believe that was what he was doing? Please let us know so we can all get clarity.

Everyone please note that, regardless of whether or not Mr. Arismende actually claims to do "psychic surgery", I absolutely stand by my earlier claims that "psychic surgery" (as the term is commonly understood and as described by Veronica) is always a fraud, a rip-off, a swindle. Please see my previous posting in this thread for more info, and/or look it up on a good skeptical website. If anyone ever claims that they can put their fingers into your body and remove tissue without using cutting tools or leaving a mark, they are conning you. If they are accepting money or other considerations for this "service" they need to be jailed to protect the public.

Also, for the record (though I doubt this will matter to most of you), I do not endorse the aforementioned Reiki or any other practice which invokes some kind of "energy" unknown to physicists. My current bias is that alternative energy healing practices are based on mistaken assumptions--i.e., that the posited "energy" simply doesn't exist. Also, many of the claims commonly associated with the aforementioned phytotherapy appear to me to be pseudoscientific or in some cases just plain superstitious. But, to be fair, I acknowledge that most proponents of such practices are sincere, really believing in these approaches rather than consciously defrauding people. I number quite a few of such practitioners among my friends (Hi, everybody!). "Psychic surgery", on the other hand (as defined elsewhere in my postings), is always consciously fraudulent; no one could possibly perform a sleight of hand trick in which they appear to pull chicken guts from a person and claim those guts to be tissue from that person without fraudulent intent. Heartless people who thus knowingly victimize the desperately ill are beneath contempt.

Thanks for "listening" and I hope to hear from some of you.

Love;
Dixon

Meddie has asked me to post this on his behalf. He can be contacted directly with any questions or concerns at [email protected].

"I did speak to Dixon. The only healer that there is or will ever be is the Great White Spirit, The Holy Spirit or you can even say God.

Everything should be taken with a grain of salt, even people that don't believe in anything.

In Love and Light, Meddie Arismende. "

Well, hmm. Not very responsive to some very specific questions, is this?

I didn't intend to weigh in on this, but this response appears to be intended to do two things:

1. Deliberately evade saying anything definitive in response to Dixon's questions; and
2. Raise questions as to Dixon's credibility, as if the burden of proof is somehow evenly distributed between someone whose representative has claimed can perform physically impossible acts, and someone who questions this claim.

Now, disclaimers: I'm a rational materialist myself, and a nodding and generally friendly acquaintance with Dixon.

But I don't completely agree with his argument. Though I agree that "psychic surgery" is generally a con game, he goes a bit too far when he suggests that ALL who perform sleight of hand in efforts to heal are con men. In context, that's what indigenous healers who "draw" little beads, arrows, and other "spirit objects" "out of the body" during healing ritual are doing, via the good ol' thumb-crotch palm, and they're doing it for the psychological value of giving the subject of the ritual "physical evidence" that something has been done to benefit the condition being addressed. It's basically placebo legerdemain.

But that situation is not the same as a traveling...well, shall we say "medicine show" which involves "miraculous effects" and sale of "medicines" (or rather "supplements"). In this case, I agree with Dixon that this person sounds fraudulent.

The North Bay is pretty rich picking grounds for those in "alternatherapy" game. As Dixon says, many who practice various of these...well, practices do so in good faith and believe in the results. There probably are some results in many cases, the power of the human mind over its own healing being what it is. But there are a lot of people here who believe in pretty ungrounded stuff, and many of them have a lot of money, or are willing to come up with it even if they don't have it. That creates a powerful psychic vibration, the resonance of which can draw charletans (sp?) from far and wide. This particular "Doctor" sounds like one of them.

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Posted in reply to the post by Veronica:

Meddie has asked me to post this on his behalf. He can be contacted directly with any questions or concerns at [email protected].

"I did speak to Dixon. The only healer that there is or will ever be is the Great White Spirit, The Holy Spirit or you can even say God.

Everything should be taken with a grain of salt, even people that don't believe in anything.

In Love and Light, Meddie Arismende. "

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Hi, sisters and brothers!

I'm sure I needn't point out that Meddie's response through Veronica entirely evades the quite reasonable questions I asked. That in itself speaks volumes about the validity, or lack of it, of Meddie and Veronica's claims.

Veronica (and Meddie), you know as well as I that no reasonable person would accept these vague slogans as a constructive response to the important issues involved here. It''s clear to nearly all Waccoites that your response is a cop-out.

Veronica, you have repeatedly made some wild public claims on behalf of a guy who denies them and denies having authorized you to make them, thus publicly trashing your credibility (such as it was) and pretty much leaving you hanging. You can salvage some shred of honor for yourself now by either telling us that Meddie did indeed induce you to make these claims, or by apologizing to the Wacco community for misleading us yourself. Your/Meddie's evasive response simply makes you both look like people with something to hide.

By the way, you'll both be interested to know that I have been contacted by several disgruntled people who received "treatments" from Meddie and who contradict his story (i.e., they tell me in no uncertain terms that he did perform "psychic surgery" on them, blood, animal guts and all, and that they believe it was phony). At least a couple of them are willing to testify to that effect. It's hard to imagine what motivation any of these people would have for lying about this, and equally easy to understand what motivation Meddie would have for lying about it.

I'm slowly putting together a very clear and incontrovertible picture of this ugly situation, and I will do what is necessary to protect our community from cynical exploitation. With which side will you cast your lot, Veronica?

The chicken guts are coming home to roost.

Love;
Dixon

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Posted in reply to the post by Veronica:

Meddie has asked me to post this on his behalf. He can be contacted directly with any questions or concerns at [email protected].

"I did speak to Dixon. The only healer that there is or will ever be is the Great White Spirit, The Holy Spirit or you can even say God.

Everything should be taken with a grain of salt, even people that don't believe in anything.

In Love and Light, Meddie Arismende. "

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Dixon started this thread by attacking, threatening, and making accuasions about a man he had never met and had not received any complaints about. This behavior is not typically condoned on Wacco and it saddens me that he felt the need to take this direction.

Proof is in the pudding, as it is said. That, to me, that means in the results. I continue to host Meddie because he has helped me, and helped others that have come to him. In fact, the reason he is here this time is because clients kept asking me when he would return. He returns to Sonoma County because folks want him to. He has been doing this work for all these years because folks want him to. He freely gives out his contact information because he is willing to talk to people about it.

Meddie's work is not for everyone. That can be said about every business/service/healing treatment/etc. Not everyone likes the dentist on the corner, the mechanic in town, the lawyer in the city, the new resturant, the Doctor at the hospital, etc. We are not one-size-fits-all folks. However, a huge percentage of the folks that see Meddie get a great benefit from it.

I used terms to describe Meddie's work that I shouldn't have. I have revised my posts accordingly. Meddie is not a doctor or surgeon and has never claimed to be one.

Meddie had no knowledge of what I was posting on wacco, he is in Virginia and had never heard of wacco before yesterday.

I feel that my position has been clearly described. Meddie has provided his email address for anyone who has questions to contact him directly. If you have questions, I suggest you do just that. He is very open and easy to talk to. I believe you will like the man you meet.


As a reminder, my inital post about Meddie's upcoming visit included the following testimonials:

As humans we are far more powerful than we can begin to imagine. One area where our power, or lack of power, is evident is in our attitudes and approaches to healing. Our healing is tied to our imagination and our willingness to take responsibility for change. And over the years, I have found that Meddie is a wonderful resource and an essential aide to personal healing. Meddie's approach is grounded in various healing arts as well as built on excellent personal experience. And given the wide variety of ways our bodies and spirits can heal, it's great to have a wonderful and strong resource like Meddie. Meddie is very helpful, very skillful, and has strong resources with solid insights. I would recommend Meddie and his advice and skills as a major partner in your healing program. At the very least, you will likely feel your experience is a massage with some interesting things to think about. And the potential of a much deeper healing experience with Meddie is a real possibility for you.

Matt in California

Before seeing Meddie I was going to my chiropractor at least twice a week or a month and off and on before that to try to relieve my blocked ileocecal valve. I also had to watch my diet very closely because so many foods seemed to cause it to flare up again and again.

After ONE visit with Meddie it was cleared and hasn't flared up since. I am eating whatever I want with no repercussions.

I wasn't a true believe until I had actually experienced it with my own eyes and body.

In my opinion and experience Meddie is the "real deal" and I, for one, am very grateful for his unusual healing abilities.

Worked for me!

Randy Sue Collins

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Posted in reply to the post by Veronica:

Dixon started this thread by attacking, threatening, and making accuasions about a man he had never met and had not received any complaints about. This behavior is not typically condoned on Wacco and it saddens me that he felt the need to take this direction.

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To be honest, I initially missed some of the most aggressive parts of Dixon's posts. On reviewing his posts, I feel they are both an important whistle-blowing on a service that was posted that seems, at a minimum, to misrepresent what is truly being offered, and at the same time his words are overly aggressive.

Since his most aggressive post has already been sent out in the digest as well as responded to, I am going to let it stand. In the future, I ask Dixon and anybody else to share their concerns in a less aggressive fashion.

Note the difference between "energy work" where nothing is misrepresented and either you believe it or not, and statements such as "He is able to actually insert his fingers into the patient's body to remove tumors/scar tissue/etc without the use of tools."

I thank Dixon for bringing this to my/our attention and I thank Veronica for changing her posts to reflect what is being offered.

Barry

Barry and all;

I stand by the accuracy of everything I've posted to date, and feel that Meddie richly deserves my "aggressive" language (and then some; you shoulda seen the things I restrained myself from saying!). I think that nearly everyone who fully understands just how phony "'psychic surgery" is, and how many innocent people it victimizes, would agree with me.

However, I understand that many people aren't aware of just how nasty the problem is, and to them my language may seem like an overreaction. Also, Barry, I know that you must maintain certain standards of civility for Wacco to function,which includes using your best judgment about where to draw the lines. Therefore, Barry, I apologize if I've caused you any distress, and will moderate my language hereafter.

Thanks again for your efforts;
Dixon

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

To be honest, I initially missed some of the most aggressive parts of Dixon's posts. On reviewing his posts, I feel they are both an important whistle-blowing on a service that was posted that seems, at a minimum, to misrepresent what is truly being offered, and at the same time his words are overly aggressive.

Since his most aggressive post has already been sent out in the digest as well as responded to, I am going to let it stand. In the future, I ask Dixon and anybody else to share their concerns in a less aggressive fashion.

Note the difference between "energy work" where nothing is misrepresented and either you believe it or not, and statements such as "He is able to actually insert his fingers into the patient's body to remove tumors/scar tissue/etc without the use of tools."

I thank Dixon for bringing this to my/our attention and I thank Veronica for changing her posts to reflect what is being offered.

Barry

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I have worked in the field of energy 'medicine' for almost 30 years. Having personally experienced psychic surgery many years ago in Sebastopol by a Philliphine healer and having friends who have gone to the Philliphines to have psychic surgery, the results were very profound and life changing. In fact, my dear friend and fellow ThetaHealing practitioner is a documentary film producer in LA who has filmed many types of healers including psychic surgeons. She is working to get her films onto a national TV series. Her own healing of her eyes was filmed as the psychic surgeon pulled the cateracts off. You could see it happen. How Creator-of-ALL works through each individual is unique, and It's existence needs no proof to those who understand how energy works and are 'touched' by Its many levels.

"Phony" is an interesting word because even scientists know that "phony' placebos have 'cured' people. What is phony to one, changes the world and creates a new perspective for another. Reality is what you believe it to be and changes with each thought. I am sure that Meddie's few words were carefully chosen to not engage with those who have little understanding of that which seems unbelieveable and unexplainable.

Judy
ThetaHealing Medical Intuitive/Instructor

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Barry and all;

I stand by the accuracy of everything I've posted to date, and feel that Meddie richly deserves my "aggressive" language (and then some; you shoulda seen the things I restrained myself from saying!). I think that nearly everyone who fully understands just how phony "'psychic surgery" is, and how many innocent people it victimizes, would agree with me.

However, I understand that many people aren't aware of just how nasty the problem is, and to them my language may seem like an overreaction. Also, Barry, I know that you must maintain certain standards of civility for Wacco to function,which includes using your best judgment about where to draw the lines. Therefore, Barry, I apologize if I've caused you any distress, and will moderate my language hereafter.

Thanks again for your efforts;
Dixon

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The video says it all.

No need for discussion on that topic. This sort of thing is a cheap magic trick. While energy work has a place in the alternative healing repetoire, there is no place for trickery. Anyone who earns financial gain from this sort of parlor magic deserves a firm rebuke and should not be welcome in our community. As for the person in question,as I am unfamiliar with his practice I can make no comment. But I would be wary of those lay claim to the the ability to perform psychic surgery. In my experience real healing is a far more subtler affair that requires no such melodrama.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Earilier in this thread, Dixon tried to include a link to a video about a psychic surgeon, but the link was not valid. I've inlcuded the video here on the website... {snip}

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Posted in reply to the post by wisedragonlady:

I have worked in the field of energy 'medicine' for almost 30 years. Having personally experienced psychic surgery many years ago in Sebastopol by a Philliphine healer and having friends who have gone to the Philliphines to have psychic surgery, the results were very profound and life changing. In fact, my dear friend and fellow ThetaHealing practitioner is a documentary film producer in LA who has filmed many types of healers including psychic surgeons. She is working to get her films onto a national TV series. Her own healing of her eyes was filmed as the psychic surgeon pulled the cateracts off. You could see it happen. How Creator-of-ALL works through each individual is unique, and It's existence needs no proof to those who understand how energy works and are 'touched' by Its many levels.

"Phony" is an interesting word because even scientists know that "phony' placebos have 'cured' people. What is phony to one, changes the world and creates a new perspective for another. Reality is what you believe it to be and changes with each thought. I am sure that Meddie's few words were carefully chosen to not engage with those who have little understanding of that which seems unbelieveable and unexplainable.

Judy
ThetaHealing Medical Intuitive/Instructor

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Hi, Dixon.

I sure don't want to get involved in this brouhaha. I've known people on both sides of the Philippine Psychic Surgery issue, including someone who went to the Phillipines with a friend and watched Dr. Tony at work.

This is an interesting story. I used to know a guy who ran a recording studio in San Francisco in the '70s, and did a lot of sound work for films. He was commissioned to do the sound for a documentary film on Dr. Tony. This was back in the dear dead days of actual film, so Luther spent hours running sound and visual film back and forth through a Movieola. He told me that after looking at that stuff over and over again, often running the visual at very slow speeds, he felt that about 90% of what he saw was sleight-of-hand. He found the other 10% pretty mysterious. He told me about one sequence in which a man meets Dr. Tony at his house. The man allegedly has a badly abcessed tooth, and is in considerable pain, his jaw very swolen. Dr. Tony walked up to him with a big smile, reached into his mouth and did something. The man staggered back in shock, a trickle of blood running out of his mouth. Dr. Tony held up a tooth, which he had somehow pulled with his fingers, like plucking a flower. Luther was impressed; sadly, I didn't see the film I wonder what ever happened to it.

Roland

The danger is someone with a curable illness goes with some phoney treatment while their illness gets to the point of being uncureable. It's ok to use alternative treatments as long as you don't kill yourself or your children for lack of real treatment.

I'm reminded of a couple who I did a job for. They had a child. Because of their counter culture views they believed vacines were bad. Their son was one of only a few to get polio and be parilized right her in California. For want a free sugar cube because of a counter culture notion he never walked.


Mike

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Posted in reply to the post by broadbandersnatch:

The video says it all.

No need for discussion on that topic. {snip}... In my experience real healing is a far more subtler affair that requires no such melodrama.

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I can totally understand your point of view, Mr. Snatch :wink:. AND...I think there is need for discussion on the topic (but then, I may be biased... :lol2:)

For some people... I can believe that the melodrama somehow provides the context for a profound shift of energy, that real healing can result, and the melodrama played an important role in making that possible.

I see dis-ease, which is what healing is trying to bring ease to, as fundamentally a block in the energy flow, which often is some emotional/spiritual/decision which is eventually expressed physically.

Call it just a strong placebo effect, which is real (see this thread), of an experimental deep spiritual healing treatment. For some people... Especially for those whose fundamental wound is spiritual (Do you know anybody like that? :nod:), real healing can be facilitated.......

Shifting the underlying energy blockage is a very profound healing. And from a scientific point of view, that objectively measures the success of a given treatment, (which is way less than 100% for commonly accepted practices), it could be larger than the generally accepted placebo level. So then science would say, "something is happening here."

Some of us can fully let in the subtle/profound effects of energy healing as is, and some of us need the Hollywood version...

And, as Brother John said, "Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright".

And while all that may be true, the offering of such services, must be done with integrity and not mis-represent, especially here in Waccoville. I believe that Veronica's restatement of the service meets that test now. (although I find the statement: "He can often detect issues before you are aware of them" troubling :fie: ).

If claims are made without full integrity, it can be appropriate to cast a stone, a small stone, cast without malice but rather with as much love as can be mustered... :wedgie:

It's all part of honoring and respecting all beings, with compassion... For after all... we are one.

Or maybe it's just this UV Heart Chakra pulse...:sun::Beamedup::dunno::nod:

Barry
:Mr.Natural:

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

"I'm ... a nodding and generally friendly acquaintance with Dixon.
But I don't completely agree with his argument. Though I agree that "psychic surgery" is generally a con game..."

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"Generally", Mark? Could you point me towards even one exception?

Mark again:
"...he goes a bit too far when he suggests that ALL who perform sleight of hand in efforts to heal are con men. In context, that's what indigenous healers who "draw" little beads, arrows, and other "spirit objects" "out of the body" during healing ritual are doing, via the good ol' thumb-crotch palm, and they're doing it for the psychological value of giving the subject of the ritual "physical evidence" that something has been done to benefit the condition being addressed. It's basically placebo legerdemain."

Mark, my dictionary defines "con" as "persuade (someone) to do or believe something, typically by use of a deception." Thus any deception is a con, regardless of whether it triggers a beneficial nonspecific treatment effect such as the placebo effect.

You might even be able to justify such a "therapeutic con" in instances wherein there is no other effective option, such as primitive tribes which have no other form of treatment. However, I believe that deceiving someone out of their money is certainly wrong in nearly all cases, regardless of any possible beneficial placebo effect because:

1. Usually there is some kind of REAL treatment, whether curative or merely palliative, for nearly any condition, and these real treatments will trigger the placebo effect just as well as trickery, without having to lie to the patient.

2. More objective conditions, such as tumors and diseases, (which often bring "patients" to "psychic surgeons") are helped little if at all by the placebo effect, which is more effective with subjective conditions such as headache or back pain.

3. People who waste their time and money on deceptive "treatments" sometimes die because they did that instead of using their time and money for real treatments. Here's a relevant quote from the British Columbia Cancer Agency website: "The Canadian Embassy in Manila had signed three death certificates for people who would never return alive from their miracle tours (involving psychic surgery)...Of more than 20 known cancer cases who went to Baguio from Vancouver three and four years ago, not one is still alive according to the BC Cancer Agency."

4. If we accept deceptive "treatments", how can we ever protect the public from healthcare fraud? Since any treatment a person believes in, no matter how ineffective, phony or dangerous, will trigger the placebo effect in some recipients, everything would be legal, and those who got no effect from a phony treatment would have no recourse to legal remedies.

Regards;
Dixon

Well stated, Barry. I remember when chiropractry, homeopathy and acupuncture were considered charlatan approaches to healing. Perhaps some of you remember the rucas that Deepak Chopra's book, Quantum Healing, made when it came out.

In 35 years, we've come a short distance in recognizing that there's so much more to perceive and be open to in the vast realm of healing. Since the body is energy and not solid (like all physical matter), the alternative approaches, including psychic surgery, blend this awareness through quantum physics and metaphysics in what is possible when spirituality and faith shift into new discoveries of science.

As Einstein said in '38 (The Evolution of Physics), "Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind and are not, however it may seem, uniquely deteremined by the external world. In our endeavor to understand reality, we are somewhat like a man trying to understaand the mechanism of a closed watch. He can see the hands move and hear it's ticking, but he has no way of opening the case. If he is ingenious, he may form some picture of a mechanism whicn could explain his observation. He will never be able to compare his picture with the real mechanism, and he cannot even imagine the possiblity of the meaing of such a comparison."

Judy
All great truths begin as blasphemies.
- George Bernard Shaw

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

I can totally understand your point of view, Mr. Snatch :wink:. AND...I think there is need for discussion on the topic (but then, I may be biased... :lol2:)

For some people... I can believe that the melodrama somehow provides the context for a profound shift of energy, that real healing can result, and the melodrama played an important role in making that possible.

I see dis-ease, which is what healing is trying to bring ease to, as fundamentally a block in the energy flow, which often is some emotional/spiritual/decision which is eventually expressed physically.

Call it just a strong placebo effect, which is real (see this thread), of an experimental deep spiritual healing treatment. For some people... Especially for those whose fundamental wound is spiritual (Do you know anybody like that? :nod:), real healing can be facilitated.......

Shifting the underlying energy blockage is a very profound healing. And from a scientific point of view, that objectively measures the success of a given treatment, (which is way less than 100% for commonly accepted practices), it could be larger than the generally accepted placebo level. So then science would say, "something is happening here."

Some of us can fully let in the subtle/profound effects of energy healing as is, and some of us need the Hollywood version...

And, as Brother John said, "Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright".

And while all that may be true, the offering of such services, must be done with integrity and not mis-represent, especially here in Waccoville. I believe that Veronica's restatement of the service meets that test now. (although I find the statement: "He can often detect issues before you are aware of them" troubling :fie: ).

If claims are made without full integrity, it can be appropriate to cast a stone, a small stone, cast without malice but rather with as much love as can be mustered... :wedgie:

It's all part of honoring and respecting all beings, with compassion... For after all... we are one.

Or maybe it's just this UV Heart Chakra pulse...:sun::Beamedup::dunno::nod:

Barry
:Mr.Natural:

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Dixon, I love it that you challange it so staunchly and that others defend it in the same way while others say "whatever" floats yer boat. This is ALL necessary and I hope that Barry lets this topic run it's course.
It's all good.
Thank you all,
Tom

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

First, let me cop to the tone issue. I've been quite sharp in my language here, and I'm sorry about that, but I also feel that it's appropriate that this idea about vaccination somehow being more dangerous than its alternative should be sharply rejected by all and sundry.

{snip}
For any offput by my tone, I apologize. For any offended by my arguments, tant pis, I stand by them.

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Thank you, Artwizard, for bringing up the issue of being respectful, and Sonomamark for addressing it. I'm OK with this heated, forceful discussion. Yes, Mark stated his case rather aggrssively, but I think within bounds of being respectful. He vehemently disagrees with a given viewpoint and attempts to discredit the viewpoint rather that the viewer. And there was no mention of trying to incarcerate those he disagrees with, despite them being a menace to society :wink:, as was mentioned earlier on this thread.

So I'm fine with a impassioned discussion, especially one so thoughtful and well written! In fact, Mark's reference to "tant pis" prompted me to look it up. Wiktionary translates it as "too bad". You can find a discussion of the term here (you may recognize the format!).

The bigger moderation question for me has been to whether to split the thread since the conversation has shifted to a new focus. However on reflecting on this, I am going to leave it together. It interesting that it started with something that is widely considered suspect and finding possible validity with it, to something that is widely considered valid and holding it with some suspicion.

Another option I am considering in renaming the thread to reflect the broader topic. I welcome your comments about moderation either privately or in the Moderation Discussion category.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

And now I will shut up.

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Please don't! :(:
I hope to chime in with my own comments when I get a chance! I can see both viewpoints here.

It's clear that my incomplete and piecemeal approach to educating our community about the "psychic surgery" scam has been insufficient, as many are still unclear about the seriousness of the problem. I'll now attempt to correct that by summarizing the case against psychic surgery so as to redress all unclarities:

(Please note that I'm specifically addressing psychic surgery here; I'm not discussing "psychic healing", Reiki or other "energy therapies", homeopathy, etc. etc.)

PSYCHIC SURGERY IS PHONY

“In 1974, Donald F. Wright and Carol Wright testified before a U.S. Federal Trade Commission hearing in Seattle investigating travel agents promoting tours to visit the Philippine healers. The Wrights, from Iowa, students and believers of ESP and magnetic healing, travelled to the Philippines in 1973 to study psychic surgery. Eventually they were convinced that what they saw was not surgery but trickery, and they learned the methods from their surgeon teacher. They were taught how to shop for animal parts used to make up a 'bullet'. A bullet is actual animal tissue or a clot of animal blood and cotton, which is made to appear like tissue coming from inside the body. They were taught how to make the bullet, wrap it, prepare the tissue, how to hide the bullet and then how to transfer it onto the patient. ” (Source: Marchant G. Trick or treatment? Vancouver Magazine 1978 July:47.)

I urge those who haven't done so to view the educational psychic surgery demonstration by stage magician James Randi at:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showp...1&postcount=10

Note how convincing it looks! It can even feel like the skin has been breached as the psychic surgeon pushes deeply with his/her fingers, so hard as to leave the "patient" sore for days. But consider: we have all been fooled by amazing illusionists who have convinced us that they've sawed women in half, extracted dozens of rabbits from a hat, caught bullets in their teeth, caused cars or elephants to vanish into thin air, etc. etc. Often it seems there's no other explanation but to accept that a miracle has occurred. But there is another explanation: trickery. Anyone who thinks they cannot be thoroughly tricked is seriously deficient in humility! Even if you can't remotely conceive of how it could be a trick, it could be one.

That's why there's such a thing as controlled testing of claims, like the simple, fair test I proposed in the first post of this thread. We routinely test doctors, nurses, even driver's license applicants, but psychic surgeons NEVER EVER SUBMIT TO PROPERLY CONTROLLED TESTING! Not that they haven't had plenty of opportunity; one of the most famous psychic surgeons, Reverend Tony Agpaoa, ran back to the Phillippines, forfeiting $25,000 in bail, rather than to submit to testing in a court of law. If psychic surgery were real, he could have demonstrated his innocence right there in the courtroom by doing it. Instead he jumped bail, forfeiting $25 grand! Does that tell you anything, folks?

Psychic surgeons try to keep the tissue they purportedly remove from their patients out of the hands of anyone who might lab-test it to determine its real source, but on some occasions such tissue has been tested. The results? EVERY SINGLE TIME IT HAS TURNED OUT TO BE TISSUE FROM AN ANIMAL SUCH AS A CHICKEN, DOG OR PIG! Are you starting to get the picture, folks?

Note that there is no good reason for psychic surgeons (or anyone) to refuse controlled testing of their claim. If the claim is true, they can only benefit from such testing. Their claim would be publicly validated, they would be worldwide heroes, many more people could be helped by them, MediCare and HMO's would pay for it, skeptics like me would have to eat crow. There is no downside to controlled testing if your claim is true. Thus the fact that psychic surgeons (including Meddie) universally evade testing is tantamount to an admission that their claim is phony!

POSITIVE REPORTS OF THE EFFICACY OF PSYCHIC SURGERY ARE MOSTLY ILLUSORY

Even a "treatment" that has no validity whatsoever will engender positive reports for various reasons. For instance, most conditions that people seek treatment for are inherently time-limited; that is, they'll clear up on their own eventually. When that happens, people naturally attribute their recovery to whatever treatment they had last, when often the treatment had nothing to do with the condition's clearing up!

Also, when a treatment is associated with "spiritual" or ideological beliefs, as is the case with psychic surgery, the same kind of uncritical faith associated with such beliefs is transferred to the belief in the treatment, making people's desire to believe even stronger than it would otherwise be.

The issues are further confused by "nonspecific treatment effects"--psychological effects such as expectation ("placebo") effects, the please-the-therapist effect, and the effort justification effect. These powerful effects, which we're all subject to because we're ALL more suggestible than we'd like to think, can make us feel certain that our condition has improved when it hasn't, or even cause REAL IMPROVEMENT in subjective conditions such as pain and anxiety! As I've already explicated the main reasons that this does not justify acceptance of psychic surgery (see post #15 in this thread), I won't repeat them, but I must emphasize the main reason:

PSYCHIC SURGERY KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE

The effectiveness of the aforementioned psychological effects is pretty much limited to subjective symptoms such as pain. The placebo effect does not destroy tumors. But note that when a treatment is advertised as surgery, psychic or otherwise, (as was Meddie's until his ads were hurriedly changed recently), many people with tumors will seek such treatment. They go to a psychic surgeon who convincingly pretends to pull chicken guts out of their bodies, telling them it's the tumor, then they go home believing they're cured--and die. No one knows how many people who have died would be alive today if they'd chosen real treatment instead of psychic surgery but, considering that probably millions worldwide have been bilked by psychic surgeons in the several decades since psychic surgery has been exported from the Phillippines, the number of resulting deaths must be in the hundreds if not thousands. There's no comprehensive record-keeping on such fly-by-night activities, but this little taste of info is instructive: "The Canadian Embassy in Manila had signed three death certificates for people who would never return alive from their miracle tours (involving psychic surgery)...Of more than 20 known cancer cases who went to Baguio from Vancouver three and four years ago, not one is still alive according to the BC Cancer Agency". (Source: Marchant G. No anesthetic, no knife; bail-jumping Reverend Antonia Agpaoa will heal you with his bare hands. Vancouver Magazine 1978 July:45-47). Note that in this sample, the cure rate, contrary to the psychic surgeons' claims, was precisely 0%; all patients with cancer were dead within four years. Had they not been fooled into believing they'd been cured, some would probably be alive today.

Some of you will say "So what? Vaccination kills people. Medications kill people. Infections from hospital stays kill people. It can't be helped." But note that mainstream doctors can be criminally prosecuted if their negligence kills. I would suggest that any deaths resulting from conscious deception (as in psychic surgery) be treated as capital crimes. How else can the gullible (which includes all of us at one time or another) be protected?

Love and Reason;

Dixon

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

It's clear that my incomplete and piecemeal approach to educating our community about the "psychic surgery" scam has been insufficient, as many are still unclear about the seriousness of the problem. I'll now attempt to correct that by summarizing the case against psychic surgery so as to redress all unclarities:

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Since we seemed to have resumed our "regularly scheduled programming" (ie psychic surgery), I have split of the many posts on the topic of vaccines into a new thread in the General Community category called: Vaccines: Good or Bad?

Even after Dixon's well written and reasoned case against psychic surgery and in particular, this Meddie person's claim not to fall into that category, there will no doubt be those who will continue to to be exploited by such people and who will come to his defense.

I can understand that when all western medicine has failed, a desperate person may feel he/she has nothing to lose and go this route anyway. This is an understandable, if futile path. I suppose for someone with enough faith, this all could be viewed as a sort of shamanistic sleight of hand designed to help the patient activate their own healing capacities, but it certainly isn't presented that way and as such smacks more of charlatanism than shamanism to me.

If there is a miracle cure for a seemingly incurable condition, surely it comes from within, from our own internal resources. Occasionally I have heard of people turning around deadly cancers etc. They may claim it was a radical diet or alternative therapy that did the trick, and maybe that was true in part. But perhaps the most powerful alternative medicine is the human mind and spirit, and for that miracle to take place we don't really need an intermediary.

Lastly: Ram Dass once asked a channelled being ,Emmanuel whether there was a cure for all diseases.He replied: "Yes, absolutely, as long as you perceive death as a cure. "

Regardless of Emmanuel was real or not, I think its a great quote and something to keep in mind.There are different types of healing.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

It's clear that my incomplete and piecemeal approach to educating our community about the "psychic surgery" scam has been insufficient, as many are still unclear about the seriousness of the problem. I'll now attempt to correct that by summarizing the case against psychic surgery so as to redress all unclarities:

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

It's clear that my incomplete and piecemeal approach to educating our community about the "psychic surgery" scam has been insufficient, as many are still unclear about the seriousness of the problem. I'll now attempt to correct that by summarizing the case against psychic surgery so as to redress all unclarities:
{snip}
And to those who have attacked and/or ridiculed me, know that you cannot shut me up. The battle continues!

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I'm sorry, Dixon, but your last post has pushed the boundaries of respect that I try to uphold here, Dixon. After requesting to speak with you on the phone, I have removed the personal attacks from your most recent post. :nono:

As you stated earlier:

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Also, Barry, I know that you must maintain certain standards of civility for Wacco to function, which includes using your best judgment about where to draw the lines. Therefore, Barry, I apologize if I've caused you any distress, and will moderate my language hereafter.

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I trust that you will understand.

Regarding my comment:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

...And there was no mention of trying to incarcerate those he disagrees with, despite them being a menace to society :wink:, as was mentioned earlier on this thread

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I am sorry you found this "insulting". I think you take offense too easily, especially as one who throws such poisonous arrows! I was just pointing out that while Mark was strongly disaggreeing with people who held a certain opinion, he was not lobbying for them to be sent to jail. You were quite clearly lobbying to incarcerate a particular person (and all people who fall into a particularly category you think dangerous). I was not saying that you wanted to incarcerate anybody who disagreed with you, or any other mis-interperation. If I believed that, I woudn't be writing this! :cower:

I am sorry, Barry, but I think Dixon has a reasonable complaint about this remark. In no way did he propose incarcerating people for the fact that they disagree with him; he described certain behavior, and proposed that this behavior should be classified as a criminal offense punishable by incarceration, which is a very different thing. I am sure that Dixon would not classify disagreement with his views as a criminal offense, and that is what you accused him of. It is as though he had said that anyone who falls into the category of those who (say) sell illegal drugs should be punished, and you accused him of wanting to punish anyone who thought that the selling of drugs should not be a punishable offense.

Patrick

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

And there was no mention of trying to incarcerate those he disagrees with, despite them being a menace to society :wink:, as was mentioned earlier on this thread.

...and...

I am sorry you found this "insulting". I think you take offense too easily, especially as one who throws such poisonous arrows! I was just pointing out that while Mark was strongly disaggreeing with people who held a certain opinion, he was not lobbying for them to be sent to jail. You were quite clearly lobbying to incarcerate a particular person (and all people who fall into a particularly category you think dangerous). I was not saying that you wanted to incarcerate anybody who disagreed with you, or any other mis-interperation. If I believed that, I woudn't be writing this!

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HOLLYWOOD GOT IT RIGHT!
A few years ago this subject was touched upon in the big-H flick 'Man In The Moon', a study on Andy Kauffman starring Jim Carrey. Jim's character goes to the Pilipines as a last-ditch effort to stave off some horrible disease and under goes 'psychic' surgery. The look on his face as he inadvertently sees the slight-of-hand trickery is absolutely BRILLIANT and heartbreakingly devastating, well worth the price of admission.
Joe-Bob says: Check it out! Good musical score as well.

A thought: Everyone is free to believe what they will.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

It's clear that my incomplete and piecemeal approach to educating our community about the "psychic surgery" scam has been insufficient...

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