The Manure Smell is overwhelming and toxic! What can we do about it??

Hello friends!

I understand that we are in an agricultural area, rich and beautiful and bountiful. I also understand that there is a need for fertilizer! ...However, when the smell wafts over the towns of Sebastopol, Cotati, Rohnert Park and even Santa Rosa, so badly, that families are forced to close up their windows and doors because their eyes are burning and their lungs are heaving into asthmatic-like reactions --- we have a serious problem!

I have heard so many neighbors talk about this problem, but they are too afraid to speak up in fear of people defending the agricultural rights and hearing hurtful things like 'go live somewhere else then...' But we are all living here together, contributing to this community and helping each other as we are able to. There are countless studies that show the toxicities of manure to humans. Especially in large doses! It seems that the smells have been getting progressively worse and worse for the last several years. It is extremely toxic, and it is also just embarrassing to have guests over. The disgusting overwhelming odors literally drive good people out of town, holding their noses and gagging. Where is it even coming from exactly? ...Something needs to be done.

I love it here so much! I do not want to leave! This smell is so frequent now, year-round it seems, and just so overwhelming, it is affecting my family's health very directly. It is starting to really scare me!

Please, does anyone have any realistic viable ideas about how we can solve this problem in a way that will keep the crops nurtured, without hurting the people anymore? We need to take away this disgusting poop smell that is seeping through our neighborhoods and our homes...

I've lived in Sebastopol for 35 years. Every year around this time, one can smell the manure wafting through the air. I personally don't mind it. It usually coincides with our late summer heat waves, which probably activate it more.

As a person with fairly severe chemical sensitivities, I'd rather smell manure than scented body products (even so called "natural ones") that most of Sonoma County residents think nothing of dousing themselves with, thus subjecting others to, on a daily basis.

The manure won't last long. Be grateful you live in such a beautiful part of the world and if you have to close your windows for a few weeks, as I do when the neighbors burn lighter fluid for Bar b ques or let their dogs bark constantly, then one has to adjust. Manure is a small price to pay for the abundance of wonderful farm products which define and enhance our county.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

Hello friends!

I understand that we are in an agricultural area, rich and beautiful and bountiful. I also understand that there is a need for fertilizer! ...However, when the smell wafts over the towns of Sebastopol, Cotati, Rohnert Park and even Santa Rosa, so badly, that families are forced to close up their windows and doors because their eyes are burning and their lungs are heaving into asthmatic-like reactions --- we have a serious problem! ...

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As an organic farmer for the last 24 years, I have learned to appreciate the smell of manure coming from the dairy farm next to my fruit farm. That manure is some of the best natural fertilizer available. What is really toxic to our health are the chemical fertilizers. Sonoma County has a "Right to Farm" ordinance. I agree with the comment by Lili below.

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Posted in reply to the post by lili22:

I've lived in Sebastopol for 35 years. Every year around this time, one can smell the manure wafting through the air. I personally don't mind it. It usually coincides with our late summer heat waves, which probably activate it more....

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No mud, no lotus. ☺️

https://www.parallax.org/product/no-mud-no-lotus-the-art-of-transforming-suffering/

Does anyone know if the fertilizers being used are ones that are natural with no toxins added, or toxic ones? Maybe the issue is which type of fertilizers are being used and what's in them. If farmers are using toxic types, then maybe that can be changed, so that everyone can take a deep breath without triggering asthma or other respiratory problems. Anyone know for sure?

I do agree that this awful fertilizer smell seems to come around more often than once a year and I'd like to know why it smells so bad myself. It has become worse over the past 10 years, IMO, also. I am from farm country in the Midwest, and while California cows may be happy cows, they sure do seem to stink a lot worse. I especially don't understand why it all too often smells like dead animals are in the mix - manure should smell almost green and fresh. Is it a super high urine content,too? But, it doesn't burn my eyes or make me cough; I just dislike it immensely. I certainly don't encourage anyone to come visit this time of year. For all the work these neighboring cities put in to making their towns a tourist-pleasing spot, you'd think they'd want to change this part of the scenario.

Years ago while driving through heavy industry along the NJ Turnpike I commented to a friend about the acrid smells. June Taylor who held a PHD in microbiology relied, "Don't worry about those, the worst and most dangerous are odorless, colorless, and invisible".
Be glad you can smell it, here's why:
https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-...ous-85356.html

Let me understand you…. you ask, "Where is it even coming from exactly?" but immediately follow that with, "..Something needs to be done."

So…..You have already decided that something is a clear and present danger, an active health risk, because you've seen all the studies on it, but you don't actually know what that something really is because you don't know where it's coming from. But it SMELLS!!!! YOU SMELL SOMETHING! IT'S STRONG and OFFENSIVE and thus DANGEROUS! You're pretty sure it's manure, but you're not totally sure, because you don't know where it's coming from, but you know it's bad, as in-slowly killing you- bad, because, again, countless studies have already proven it. You're defending your right to protect yourself and your family against something which you'd like someone to tell you what exactly it is and where it's coming from….it's certainly something….bad. Aaaand you'd like to point out that a LOT of people think the same as you, and they are right, but they're too afraid to speak their mind for fear of being bullied and having their feelings hurt when the local-yokels, who incidentally are either really uninformed or must not mind being themselves or having their children poisoned, say hurtful things like, "Move somewhere else!."

Do I understand you correctly?!

Can I ask where exactly you live? Who are your neighbors? How long have you lived there, that you've noticed it's gotten so much worse in recent years? Exactly how familiar are you with the agricultural community in your area?… Because honestly….it sounds like you don't know much about our agricultural community (other than we're bullies). It sounds like you're wanting something done about something you don't know much about. I think you should start with finding out exactly what it is you're fighting against. What are the actual facts?! Start there... before championing the revolt.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

Hello friends!

I understand that we are in an agricultural area, rich and beautiful and bountiful. I also understand that there is a need for fertilizer! ...However, when the smell wafts over the towns of Sebastopol, Cotati, Rohnert Park and even Santa Rosa, so badly, that families are forced to close up their windows and doors because their eyes are burning and their lungs are heaving into asthmatic-like reactions --- we have a serious problem!

I have heard so many neighbors talk about this problem, but they are too afraid to speak up in fear of people defending the agricultural rights and hearing hurtful things like 'go live somewhere else then...' But we are all living here together, contributing to this community and helping each other as we are able to. There are countless studies that show the toxicities of manure to humans. Especially in large doses! It seems that the smells have been getting progressively worse and worse for the last several years. It is extremely toxic, and it is also just embarrassing to have guests over. The disgusting overwhelming odors literally drive good people out of town, holding their noses and gagging. Where is it even coming from exactly? ...Something needs to be done.

I love it here so much! I do not want to leave! This smell is so frequent now, year-round it seems, and just so overwhelming, it is affecting my family's health very directly. It is starting to really scare me!

Please, does anyone have any realistic viable ideas about how we can solve this problem in a way that will keep the crops nurtured, without hurting the people anymore? We need to take away this disgusting poop smell that is seeping through our neighborhoods and our homes...

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Seriously?! Forego fertilizing our fields for the sake of pleasing the tourists?!!!! Un-bloody-believable.

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Posted in reply to the post by Willow:

For all the work these neighboring cities put in to making their towns a tourist-pleasing spot, you'd think they'd want to change this part of the scenario.

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You need to learn how to read, please. Go back and read it again.
And I don't appreciate the way you bashed the person who started this topic. You are being cruel intentionally.
Here's a word for you:
pre·ten·tious
prəˈten(t)SHəs/
adjective

• attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.
  

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

Seriously?! Forego fertilizing our fields for the sake of pleasing the tourists?!!!! Un-bloody-believable.

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I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. Clearly you're very sensative. If you're done calling me names though, can you please explain what part I missed? I may not be as sensitive as you but I do like specificity.

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Posted in reply to the post by Willow:

You need to learn how to read, please. Go back and read it again.
And I don't appreciate the way you bashed the person who started this topic. You are being cruel intentionally.
Here's a word for you:
pre·ten·tious
prəˈten(t)SHəs/
adjective

• attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.
  

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I love the smell of farmers fertilizing fields with natural fertilizer. I also smell my own since it is an important indicator of health. Chocolate cake, especially consumed in excess with a smorgasbord of other potluck delights, is particularly toxic. I pity others who have to smell that! (

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

Let me understand you….

...fear of being bullied ...

Do I understand you correctly?!...

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Indeed you do. And apparently that fear is well founded!

I see several people seem confused. The fertilizer you smell this time of year is not toxic. It is poop. It is cow poop, to be exact. It is part of living in our beautiful county. The farmers pump out their holding ponds on to their fields. The smell is the same every year, but the years weather patterns determine how strong the scent is in your area. Farmers have been using cow poop as fertilizer long before you moved here. How, exactly, do you think your wonderful organic veggies are grown? If you want local food, fertilized without horrible chemicals, it is the price you pay. Its kind of like knowingly purchasing a house next to an airport, then petitioning to have the airport removed because you don't like the noise and traffic.

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

Let me understand you…

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Nancy, you forgot the most important part of the complaint. This shit is TOXIC !!!!!

I am seriously concerned for a world where grown adults demonstrate the emotional stability of a tween! I'm sorry, but was I calling anyone names... "cruel", "pretentious," or suggest they are illiterate?! Just because one doesn't like the sound of their own logic and words when repeated back to them, doesn't make anyone a victim or a "BULLY!" It makes one more aware of how they sound to others. If you don't like what you hear when played back, perhaps reconsider what you thought was so important to say.

Let me know when your emotional stability has surpassed that of an elementary school counselor's office. In the meantime, just keep taking nice big deep breaths… counting to ten, in and out. It'll help get you in touch with that place from which the rest of the grown-ups function.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Indeed you do. And apparently that fear is well founded!

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Lately I've been finding a need to reread, "Nonviolent Communication, A Language of Compassion" by Marshall B. Rosenberg. In doing so, I see how I've fallen out of the habit of listening to and valuing everyone's opinions. It's been a good reminder to me about what I want from my communications and relationships with others. I recommend it to everyone. Somehow I hope we can all learn to communicate in ways that value everyone, even when we disagree.

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

I am seriously concerned for a world where grown adults demonstrate the emotional stability of a tween! ...

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The fact is this "disgusting poop smell" is how we sustainably fertilize our land. You have options which include tolerating it or moving to a more urban community. To expect farmers to destroy a sustainable livelihood so you won't be offended is ridiculous.

So, naturally, this resource of animal manure needs to be returned to the system, and as locally as possible (on-farm ideally). However, applying raw slurry from festering lagoons is no better than applying untreated sewage sludge directly to the land and, let it be known, our waterways and ground water. There's a reason the ground water in Valley Ford is undrinkable and carcinogenic due to nitrates - it's the improper management and handling of the systems of livestock. Manure that has sat anaerobically like this becomes nearly identical to applying chemical ammonia-nitrates to one's land, there's just a little more benefit due to the carbon content. This sort of fertilization regime is certainly far from ideal, as this sort of concentration of these reactive compounds is not only detrimental but poisonous to soil life. If it's this odoriferous then there's a good chance that it's also directly detrimental to the pasture plants themselves as well. Agriculture, beginning in the 19th century, has basically demonstrated that this form of "fertilization" degrades the productivity of land over the long term, so why should we be pardoning it?

But, the soils need this nutrition and we cannot deny them of it or we're up an even nastier shit creek, so to speak, so what to do? Well we need to incentivize farmers to compost their animal wastes, probably by offering subsidies and grants to develop (pay for, or make economical) on-farm composting programs. Perhaps more unpopularly by also waving a stick around for people who opt to not take the effort to do so. Fundamentally though we need to make it so that economically, and thus ethically, farmers are inclined to do it out of the benefits it provides them and not due to threats of reprisal.

Compost is a far better resource for the soil since it in fact promotes biology, soil life, while releasing nutrients slowly over time and allowing for the build-up of carbon. How much of what is currently being applied is just being lost over our rainy (knock on wood) winters because of its high solubility anyways? It's probably an egregious amount. If applying liquid slurry can be construed as some ideal way of moving some of the nutrients, then have grants for aeration systems to essentially brew manure teas. There are other alternatives than just "suck it up or leave, that's the way it's always been" or "get rid of all the animals!" Have grants and subsidies to build methane reactors to help run the tractors to spread the compost, to help run the composting equipment. As much as it pains me to say this, we're living in the 21st century here.

I remember what it smelled like last September, and it was far worse than driving through Jersey (I suppose it was another sort of Jersey, ahh a cow joke!). That acrid vomit smell isn't good for a damned thing, evidently other than causing conflict in the community. Last year it was a league beyond manure-stink, and somewhere off in orbit from cow-smell. If we're here as a community for the long haul, and not just some detached wraiths blowing through, we have to establish deep rich soils in which to sink our roots into. The same old, same old, hasn't been generating abundance for us, but leading to a slow and steady decline. We have to move beyond it and work to steward our land into a greater state. Transitioning away from antiquated practices and towards the biological ideals for whole system functioning is the only future we have a chance in, we have to start stewarding this work.

Did you know 68% of all dairy farms in Sonoma County are either Certified Organic or Transitioning? And while Marin has only 24 dairies, 17 of them are Certified Organic, making 75% of Marin's dairy production either Certified Organic or Transitioning? Did you know that according the your very own weblink https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-m...ous-85356.html it's not methane you smell but rather Hydrogen Sulfide? (Did you read the link?!!!) Did you read that you SMELL it when the gasses are at it's lowest levels. Did you read that it's most dangerous when the gas levels are at their highest particularly because YOU CAN'T SMELL IT?!! Again, this is YOUR link! And you do know that Hydrogen Sulfide is the same smell that occurs in natural geothermal springs?! You have really lovely childhood memories. I can appreciate that. However, it's probably not the best foundation for making suggestions as to the source of this "problem."

I'm gonna go with the smell is NOT methane, nor the chemicals used on our mostly Certified Organic milking room floors!

I'm gonna go with…. it's poo! Based on many years of performing daily bodily functions myself, I know for a fact; poo stinks! It does NOT smell like roses! And the reason we spread it in our fields at the end of Summer/ beginning Fall is so that we have the OPTIMUM opportunity to let it be absorbed by the soil, before disking, which turns it all into the soil (just like when you use a shovel in your veggie garden!) and breaks up the hard earth so as to create pockets that will ABSORB rain water, so as to PREVENT runoff and groundwater contamination. This is how it works…. and yes, it's smelly!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

I'm going to trust that memory and suggest that the smell is either the methane produced in the holding ponds or chemicals used to clean out the milking room floors.

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

... a memory of being a kid in the 50's, When I smelled the manure from the dairies, it didn't smell the way it does now. There's an overlay of chemicals that causes my whole being to wince. It's not the sweet warm smell I remember. I'm going to trust that memory and suggest that the smell is either the methane produced in the holding ponds or chemicals used to clean out the milking room floors.

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I'm going to go with the idea that 50+ yr old memories of scent aren't to be particularly trusted.

For some reason this thread brings to mind Robert Duvall's comment about loving the scent of napalm in the morning - it smells like victory. In a weird way, I almost love these smells - to me it smells like flourishing ag. Anything that staves off the encroachment of Pleasantville, whatever that smells like, is a good thing.

I am more worried about cow milk than cow manure. The bloated dairy industry has feed us the lie that all babies and humans need cow milk. Not true. I am one of the many lactose intolerant persons. When I went off cow milk, my health was better. 20% of the milk market is now rice, soy, almond, and cashew milk. I was raised on milk and drink it every morning, but no longer provided by an animal, but by a plant.

I appreciate that the market is driving more Sonoma County dairies to be organic. This is a positive development. I have mild asthma and have had headache issues, but never from cow manure, which we had on our family farm in Iowa. I do consider the smell of my organic neighbors' cow poop to be "pleasant," in spite of what the article states. I even consider it to be sweet.

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

... Did you know that according the your very own weblink https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-m...ous-85356.html it's not methane you smell but rather Hydrogen Sulfide? (Did you read the link?!!!) Did you read that you SMELL it when the gasses are at it's lowest levels. Did you read that it's most dangerous when the gas levels are at their highest particularly because YOU CAN'T SMELL IT?!! Again, this is YOUR link! ...

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Putting aside your continued bullying, I don't think you understood what the link you cited said:

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The rotten egg smell is present when the gas is at lower levels. Animals and people who breathe it suffer from headaches, dizziness and nausea. The danger occurs when the gas is at higher levels -- not only does it lose its scent, but the results of inhaling the gas are far more dire: sudden respiratory failure, coma and death.

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If we take this at face value, or more precisely nose value, given that we can smell it, it can cause "headaches, dizziness and nausea", if not death. I don't think this is an appropriate application of Nietzsche's maxim of "What does not kill me, makes me stronger" . Just because it doesn't literally kill people doesn't mean it's not a problem that should be addressed or at least looked into.

And while your point that a majority of the local dairies are organic or transitional is welcome, that doesn't speak to their manure management practices.

I support Sonoma County's Right to Farm Ordinance, but I don't think it should exempt them from being good neighbors nor from conforming with dairy best practices.

This is a link I sent and you've highlighted the point of why I sent it. Perhaps you also noted that my friends quote mentioned that the most dangerous gases are invisible and odorless. —Ron

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

...Did you know that according the your very own weblink https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-m...ous-85356.html it's not methane you smell but rather Hydrogen Sulfide? ...

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I have lived in the area for 63 years. It smells far less bad in the majority of our area than when I was young. It used to really stink in Petaluma when Royal Tallow operated a rendering plant by the Petalma River. Talk about a sickening stink. I know guys that worked there that would go home take a shower and smell ok then when they would get it on with wife or girlfriend the stink would come out of their pores and that was the end of the sex. Graton smelled so bad at times it was know as the armpit of Sonoma County. As far as this stink being toxic, no I don't think so. Some of the anaerobic bacteria that is in these tanks can be smelled in extremely minute concentrations. That's why they use it to odorize natural gas. It won't hurt you. Any symptoms are most likely being caused by fear. It was my understanding that cheese whey fed to the cows has something to do with the stink.

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Posted in reply to the post by Ronaldo:

This is a link I sent and you've highlighted the point of why I sent it. Perhaps you also noted that my friends quote mentioned that the most dangerous gases are invisible and odorless. —Ron

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They do make an odorless fertilizer. I use to live in the middle of a Vineyard & I never smelled anything. I know nothing about the fertilizer they used, so there's always the possibility that it is terrible for mother earth but there is also the possibility that it is a safe and organic product.

You know what Barry, you're right, you're completely right, you're so incredibly RIGHT!!! These stupid organic dairy farmers. They apparently don't give a literal shit about anyone or anything except pippin' out the ladies and killin' their babies. If only they knew what the Wacco's know. If only the people from the city with a steel-trap memory could educate the dumb country folk, who obviously don't care about our air, water, or planet, on how to eat, walk, and talk. Meanwhile, Nancy Prebilich is a meanest, cruelest, most vitriolic, venomous, pretentious, illiterate bully in all the land (Did I get all the names I've been called here on this peaceful, tolerant site of yours?!".)

When did Sebastopol/West County become so righteous, dare I say "pretentious? Peace, love, and harmony- so long as you live like me!You know what's killing this planet? PEOPLE. You say it's too many animals? Fine- kill all the pigs, kill all the cows to spare us from the toxic poo. Or wait, I'm sorry… are we suppose to SAVE all the animals, shut down the slaughter houses and processing plants and rescue them from their inhumane demise, because THAT will surely solve the poo problem! Either way, when ALL of that is done, ya'll need to have your sons castrated and your daughters sterilized so that the rest of us can live long healthy lives on quinoa and coconut milk. You all need to be like me. Stop procreating! Stop making more mouths to feed! But now…that's just crazy-talk!

Yes, Barry, I understand the link just fine, hence the reason why you couldn't put if not death in quotes! And just because someone has to close their windows or gets a headache does not mean we all have to turn vegan. And yes, Barry, organic certification DOES cover manure management practices, and nobody is being EXEMP from shit!

Tipsheet: Manure in OrganicProduction Systems

Stop. Just stop this righteous, PC, holier-than-thou, "I'm a victim," ignorance-based rhetoric.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Putting aside your continued bullying, I don't think you understood what the link you cited said:...

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When I started reading all the comments about the smells, I hoped to learn more about what is really happening. What causes the smell, what about it causes some people health problems. I really wanted to know, not who is right or wrong, but to get as much information as possible, and openly look at other info than what I have.There has been some good information, and links to follow through this Wacco conversation, so I feel more knowledgeable than I did before. It seems to me that the more informed we all are, the better choices and changes we can make.

I was wondering last night if any of the dairy farmers who are involved in the manure processing, might respond to this site and give their input as to what they are actually experiencing, what their needs are, how the community might help if needed. If anyone else has any other new or helpful info to share, thanks.

I hear you Carol and I do appreciate what you are saying with respect to what you were hoping to get out of reading the comments on this peaceful, tolerant, community-oriented bulletin board. But when an inquiry starts with,

"...we have a serious problem!...It is extremely toxic... embarrassing to have guests over. The disgusting overwhelming odors literally drive good people out of town, holding their noses and gagging….We need to take away this disgusting poop smell that is seeping through our neighborhoods and our homes…"

what you have is someone/ a group of people not coming to the table wanting information and education. You have entitlement, arrogance, and ignorance. If indeed the question was simply "Hey, can someone please explain Sonoma Aroma?!" then I can almost promise you'd get a different reaction, at least from folks like me. And when I say "like me," I might be the closest you'll find to one of these dairy farmers whom you were hoping to find on this site.

My family has been dairying in this county since 1856. My grandmother came from a dairy in Petaluma and moved to my grandfather's dairy in Bodega after they got married. We just sold that ranch 3 years ago. All of great-grandma's 6 boys stayed in the local dairy business from Valley Ford to Petaluma, and most of the girls married into dairy families too. Most of my cousins are still in the business, mostly in Petaluma but some have moved to Tulare. My mother's brother became one of the top 3 USDA dairy inspectors in the state of California… I was born from and raised in this horrible, toxic, inconsiderate, problematic local dairy community. I can promise you, you will not find any of those people on this website…. they simply don't have the time, nor energy to put into such nonsense as trying to be convinced that they're driving away guests and slowly killing their community with their toxic ways. They have no patience for google links about the beef industry in Brazil, or to be told to stop using toxic chemicals on their milking floors by folks who grew up in LA. But I can also promise you this…. if you really JUST wanted to know, without declarations, without assertions, without accusations, without victimization… they would tell you what everyone else has been saying on this thread; it's poo, and you're fine.

The problem is that some people don't want to hear the answer which is- it's ok. Because they smell something/feel something/ have a reaction to something, they automatically leap from considering self-mitigation to "We have a problem!" You have a headache? I feel ya- I get hay fever. But we don't need to stop spreading the poo in Fall any more than we need to stop cutting the grass in Spring. If it's really that bad, one might consider moving. We're not forcing you anymore than you're trying to force us all to be vegans. We're just saying "we" don't have a problem, but we understand that "you" might. If indeed all one wants to know is "what it is," don't come with "It has to STOP!" attitude. Don't conflate concern about potential health issues with driving away tourism and embarrassment for your guests. (Btw, Carol… please don't interpret my train of thought here as an accusation against you specifically…I'm just trying to explain why you won't get a dairy farmer on this thread or this site.)

I've only been alive 42 years, but those 42 years are rooted right here in west county, proceeded by 118 years (specifically dairying) on my mother's side in Bodega, and 104 years on my dad's in Sebastopol. But even that inside connection won't convince some that the beef in Brazil has nothing to do with the smell in Sonoma! That you're not going to die- you're just annoyed, and your annoyance does not a problem make. And yes, if you really can't stand it…. for your sake, and everyone else's, move on.

Now if you'll excuse me, I actually do need to go milk Nelly.

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Posted in reply to the post by cw707:

When I started reading all the comments about the smells, I hoped to learn more about what is really happening. What causes the smell, what about it causes some people health problems...

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I think this should pretty much wrap up this thread. Nobody could accuse Nancy of bullying here, and she clearly states why she is qualified to have her point of view at least taken seriously, and she clearly states what seems to me to be a very reasonable and non confrontive point of view.

In my opinion this thread has generated far more heat than light and continued back and forth is just driving people further apart.

Patrick Brinton

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

I hear you Carol and I do appreciate what you are saying ....

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