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Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Greetings Sebastopol Citizens,
I would like to start a (polite) discussion on the matter of the current trial of Bertoli vs Sebastopol & CalTrans. I was struck at the same intersection and sustained a traumatic brain injury (TBI), that is still presenting new afflictions almost nine years later.
In 2008 Sebastopl ranked 4th in fatal/injury collisions, in 2009 it was 2nd (CA Office of Traffic Safety) of 70 cities of similar populations. The City was aware of the dangerous conditions at this (Hwy 116/Healdsburg Ave.) and other intersection cross-walks ten years before the Bertoli incident. 2004's measure "M" provided the city with millions in funding to improve city cross-walks, five years before the accident and Seb. police has received over $280,000.00 to address traffic problems since '04. This funding came from grants outside of the regular city budget (not city taxes) but where is the cost of this trial coming from? If the jury finds for the plaintiff where does the money for damages come from? If the city had corrected the problem intersections in a timely manner they would have saved money better spent on serving the citizens of Sebastopol.
I do disclose that I was called as a witness in the case to relate my experience at the cross=walk.
Here are a few articles to start with:
https://www.petaluma360.com/news/349...ver-sebastopol
https://roadwarrior.blogs.pressdemoc...-local-cities/
Thanx.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Here are two other interesting articles regarding this trial.
https://firstamendmentcoalition.org/...c-records-act/
The second is very long and is over the attach. size for this site. Just Google Scholar search Bertoli v City of Sebastopol.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by glenclem:
Greetings Sebastopol Citizens,
I would like to start a (polite) discussion on the matter of the current trial of Bertoli vs Sebastopol & CalTrans. I was struck at the same intersection and sustained a traumatic brain injury (TBI), that is still presenting new afflictions almost nine years later.
In 2008 Sebastopl ranked 4th in fatal/injury collisions, in 2009 it was 2nd (CA Office of Traffic Safety) of 70 cities of similar populations. The City was aware of the dangerous conditions at this (Hwy 116/Healdsburg Ave.) and other intersection cross-walks ten years before the Bertoli incident. 2004's measure "M" provided the city with millions in funding to improve city cross-walks, five years before the accident and Seb. police has received over $280,000.00 to address traffic problems since '04. This funding came from grants outside of the regular city budget (not city taxes) but where is the cost of this trial coming from? If the jury finds for the plaintiff where does the money for damages come from? If the city had corrected the problem intersections in a timely manner they would have saved money better spent on serving the citizens of Sebastopol.
I do disclose that I was called as a witness in the case to relate my experience at the cross=walk.
Here are a few articles to start with:
https://www.petaluma360.com/news/349...ver-sebastopol
https://roadwarrior.blogs.pressdemoc...-local-cities/
Thanx.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
i have been expressing for months to friends
how upsetting it is to have the responsibility as a driver amidst the many crosswalks on Sebastopol Ave / Healdsburg Av / Main St.
They are Inadequately lit
too subtle to see when lit
and by that time it may be too late
one could easily kill someone using the crosswalk
especially at dusk
not to mention when dark
not only is this treacherous for the pedestrian
it is unsafe as a driver to have to monitor these incredibly poorly designed crosswalks
i've never experienced anything as a driver that is this much concern to me
both driver and pedistrian are disadvantaged in the situation of crossing such a busy street / highway
i am shocked that this system was chosen and approved
two people last year were killed to my knowledge
wondering if this is recognized by others as a huge responsibility and priority
it is asking too much of drivers
city planners are responsible for the great hazard these crosswalks pose
what to do?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by glenclem:
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
In China, the responsibility lies with the pedestrian, as it naturally should. The policy is "car first". Only at a controlled intersection (stop lights and crosswalk control) is the car responsible, but still pedestrians are cautious because they know cars are bigger and will kill them.
Conversely, here, when a pedestrian walks blithely into a crosswalk expecting cars to stop, a mistake is deadly to them. If that pedestrian instead expected that he should be responsible for not being hit, he would be much more careful.
The idea that "we've passed a law, so cars should stop" neglects the reality of the situation. Mistakes and distractions happen, and if a pedestrian expects a driver to be perfect, the pedestrian will pay the price. Thus I propose we change the law, and inform pedestrians that they are responsible for their own safety.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
i have been expressing for months to friends
how upsetting it is to have the responsibility as a driver amidst the many crosswalks on Sebastopol Ave /
...
city planners are responsible for the great hazard these crosswalks pose
what to do?
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by spam1:
... Thus I propose we change the law, and inform pedestrians that they are responsible for their own safety.
I don't know that I'd go so far as to change the law. If a pedestrian gets hit in a crosswalk, it should still be the drivers fault, but perhaps more education is called for so pedestrians know that they are responsible for their safety in cross walk. Don't put yourself at risk!
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
again i feel we are all responsible
and
furthermore
the answer from my perch
is that we upgrade these crosswalks to a truly safe and non-stressful experience of using them as both drivers and pedstrians
particularly at dusk, and perhaps dawn
they are INADEQUATE / DANGEROUS
so it is the city planners who are responsible
and the community to speak up about their experience as drivers and walkers
i'm glad for the few responses that are coming to a boil
for me
safety vs. harm is a boiling issue
when it comes to cars and walkers and children amongst this!!
~yamah
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Law or no law....when we are walking or on a bike, we must be smart enough to realize that we are the vulnerable ones. If we get hit, we can blame the driver and make them pay, but we may end up losing limbs, mobility, and live in pain the rest of our lives. Wouldn't it be better to take personal "responsibility" for our safety as much as possible. Look once, then look again....because wheels move very fast!!
What kind of education would make a difference in teaching people that they're responsible for their own safety? Does anyone really believe that a crosswalk is real protection from a distracted driver, who may have their eyes on a text message, or be texting themselves? People are still texting while driving, in spite of the dangers to themselves and others. It's almost like driving with a loaded gun, searching for targets.
Eye contact is the key here. Without it, you're dealing with a driver who may not know you exist.
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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
I don't know that I'd go so far as to change the law. If a pedestrian gets hit in a crosswalk, it should still be the drivers fault, but perhaps more education is called for so pedestrians know that they are responsible for their safety in cross walk. Don't put yourself at risk!
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
i also would not want to live the rest of my life
having hit and harmed someone
due to poor lighting,
due to a very busy road like 116 is where the first couple of crosswalks are coming into town from 101
i don't want to be the driver of a car
that accidentally impairs someone or someone's parent, brother, lover, etc
i'm not well enough supported as a driver
the crosswalks are not safe enough
not visible enough
i don't even know if they are a good idea~
stoplights seem to be the clearest, safest, surest way of traffic taking turns and providing for walkers, bikers
the crosswalk is an experience of too casual and too subtle a way to ensure Clarity and Safety
for all~
don't mean to rant
just that this seems to not be on the table
and is an overlooked, ignored (ignor-ant) structure
we are going along with
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
I tend to agree with the need for personal responsibility to not put oneself in danger.
My major pet peeve is pedestrians and bicyclists after dark, with minimal to no lighting, and wearing dark clothing.
In town it's not bad, what with street and store light, etc. But I've passed people on 116 and other side roads (Canfield, Bloomfield, Occidental and others) where lighting is non-existent, and in headlights, dark clothes do fade/blend with the darkness beyond until you're close.
Please, please, PLEASE People, If you know you're going to be out and about after dark, WEAR LIGHT COLORS! And maybe carry a light of SOME kind.
If you're not readily visible until you're already inside safe braking distance, the danger level is amplified.
My two cents. Thanks.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
....
the crosswalks are not safe enough
not visible enough
i don't even know if they are a good idea~
stoplights seem to be the clearest, safest, surest way of traffic taking turns and providing for walkers, bikers
the crosswalk is an experience of too casual and too subtle a way to ensure Clarity and Safety
for all~
don't mean to rant
just that this seems to not be on the table
and is an overlooked, ignored (ignor-ant) structure
we are going along with
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Yama,
Your "ranting" is the first step to getting something on the table.
Community members need to step up, organize and find out what's needed
to get some action on this critical issue.
Looking at the historical statistics of accidents and the injuries would be a
necessary step in presenting what the majority of the community would like
to see.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
i also would not want to live the rest of my life
having hit and harmed someone
due to poor lighting,
...
don't mean to rant
...
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Again, the issue of people not taking personal responsibility can take lives, theirs and others. So many seem bent on learning the hard way, rather than being aware of the reality of the environment they are traveling in. Most accidents are a result of lack of awareness, and distraction from the moment that we're in. I imagine we've all had close calls, and some not so close, as reminders to pay attention. If we want to "live dangerously", we should pick a solitary activity, so as not to injure others who may not have that same desire. Wearing dark colors while walking or biking at night is "living dangerously" while you risk your life and the lives of those who are driving equipment that can maim and kill instantly....and has.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by handy:
I tend to agree with the need for personal responsibility to not put oneself in danger.
...
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by spam1:
In China, the responsibility lies with the pedestrian, as it naturally should. The policy is "car first". Only at a controlled intersection (stop lights and crosswalk control) is the car responsible, but still pedestrians are cautious because they know cars are bigger and will kill them.
Conversely, here, when a pedestrian walks blithely into a crosswalk expecting cars to stop, a mistake is deadly to them. If that pedestrian instead expected that he should be responsible for not being hit, he would be much more careful.
The idea that "we've passed a law, so cars should stop" neglects the reality of the situation. Mistakes and distractions happen, and if a pedestrian expects a driver to be perfect, the pedestrian will pay the price. Thus I propose we change the law, and inform pedestrians that they are responsible for their own safety.
I will relate a personal experience here and I'm sure many of us has had similar situations arise. I was driving along Mendocino Avenue in Santa Rosa near the JC at the speed limit, traffic was light. A pedestrian waits at the curb and steps out into the crosswalk. I am required to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision, the pedestrian looks at me the whole time, kinda smirks. Now if I had not been paying as much attention and the pedestrian had not either there may well have been an accident and I, the driver, would probably have been at fault. Is this fair? Having the legal right of way doesn't do you any good if you're in a hospital bed, or the morgue. (Lawyers may disagree.)
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Unfortunately, "fair" isn't part of the equation in these situations. I agree with your last sentence, and yes, it's the lawyers who usually benefit the most.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by jbox:
.... Is this fair? Having the legal right of way doesn't do you any good if you're in a hospital bed, or the morgue. (Lawyers may disagree.)
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
I have had the experience of having stopped for a pedestrian who has stepped off the curb into the crosswalk, and then they pause and wave me through. My understanding is that this is illegal. If the pedestrian waves you through, they must step back to the curb. If not, the driver can be cited for failure to yield, AND the pedestrian can be cited for creating a hazardous situation.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
anyone who walks across a street without looking for oncoming traffic, in a crosswalk or not, lighted or not, is just plain stupid.
I have a friend who got run over in a crosswalk on College Ave. I know he wishes he had looked, and continued looking, while walking across the street. He would have saved himself a hugh agony.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Reply to Santoshimatajay post 02-15-15
It's good you have friends to discuss your concerns with but we need to let our "friends" in City Hall know of our concerns.
If you go to the City of Sebastopol web page you will find access to all the "ears" that need to hear your (our) concerns. Start with an e-mail to Sue Kelly, Engineering Dept. Director, [email protected] and cc it to the city council members.
Also on the City web site there is, in the menu on the left, a quick links to a directory of all City officials, staff and departments. The departments to look at are Engineering, Planning, Police (traffic calming program), Public Works and Building and Safety dept. I went through and read about each department, board, committee and program on the site to find how any of them might be able (responsible) to address the concerns I had regarding drivers, pedestrain and bike safety on city roads.
State departments, CalTrans district four, Beth Thomas - Beth_thomas @dot.ca.gov, Dept. of Public Safety, Holly Sisneros - [email protected].
Other organizations that should have an interest in the overall circulation conditions are iWalk Sebastopol, Cittislow Seb., Street Smart Seb., Sustainable Seb., the Chamber of Commerce, So. Co. Bike Coalition, Safe Routes to Schools and should be approached and/or apprised of concerns.
The City is currently, as required by State laws, updating the City's Master Plan and it is important that circulation issues are addressed and updated in it's final draft. There is a link to meetings, public forums and committee news that you can subscribe to via email updates. It is important that problems and possible solutions to all public concerns are addressed in this document as it will become the future guidelines for the Sebastopol.
lhttps://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/page/nei...raffic-calming
https://www.cdph.ca.gov/HealthInfo/injviosaf/Documents/Ped%20Collision%20Handout_FINAL%20(11-27-13).pdf
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
i have been expressing for months to friends
how upsetting it is to have the responsibility as a driver amidst the many crosswalks on Sebastopol Ave / Healdsburg Av / Main St.
They are Inadequately lit
too subtle to see when lit
and by that time it may be too late
one could easily kill someone using the crosswalk
especially at dusk
not to mention when dark
not only is this treacherous for the pedestrian
it is unsafe as a driver to have to monitor these incredibly poorly designed crosswalks
i've never experienced anything as a driver that is this much concern to me
both driver and pedistrian are disadvantaged in the situation of crossing such a busy street / highway
i am shocked that this system was chosen and approved
two people last year were killed to my knowledge
wondering if this is recognized by others as a huge responsibility and priority
it is asking too much of drivers
city planners are responsible for the great hazard these crosswalks pose
what to do?
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Thank you for this reminder!
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by handy:
I have had the experience of having stopped for a pedestrian who has stepped off the curb into the crosswalk, and then they pause and wave me through. My understanding is that this is illegal. If the pedestrian waves you through, they must step back to the curb. If not, the driver can be cited for failure to yield, AND the pedestrian can be cited for creating a hazardous situation.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:
Again, the issue of people not taking personal responsibility ...
to be fair, we won't know how strong their sense of personal responsibility is until they're hit by someone...
I think it's clear they're way too trusting, though.
This may have come up before on this site -- there's a traffic engineer who's helped cut down traffic issues by removing signs, traffic lights and crosswalks, on the theory that people become too reliant on 'the sytem' working and instead are vigilant when things look dangerous. People work subjectively in their driving habits as well as in their political ones. Just watch most drivers in some of the back country here. Roblar west of the school is a good case. Drivers are often way below speed limit when the road is curving, and way above when it straightens out. The speed limit changes (there are three of them, for the vast majority who don't see the signs) are pretty generally ignored.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Trusting that I won't get hit by a motorist may not have to do with personal responsibility, but it seems pretty "unintelligent" "unaware" and "unconscious" of the reality we're faced with daily.
As for the traffic engineer who's helped cut down on traffic issues by removing signs, lights, and crosswalks, what can I say? We can't argue with the statistics, but it's an unusual approach. But what about Sebastopol ranking so high in accidents? Where is this engineer when we need her/him?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
to be fair, we won't know how strong their sense of personal responsibility is until they're hit by someone...
I think it's clear they're way too trusting, though.
This may have come up before on this site -- there's a traffic engineer who's helped cut down traffic issues by removing signs, traffic lights and crosswalks, ...
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:
As for the traffic engineer who's helped cut down on traffic issues by removing signs, lights, and crosswalks, what can I say? We can't argue with the statistics, but it's an unusual approach. But what about Sebastopol ranking so high in accidents? Where is this engineer when we need her/him?
I should have linked when I first posted... his name was Hans Monderman
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
When I read your post I thought you meant that this engineer was local and actually had some success here; now I realize that's not the case.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
to be fair, we won't know how strong their sense of personal responsibility is until they're hit by someone......
Thank you. The trend in the US seems to be make everything so safe we don't have to take personal responsibility, to think for ourselves. This attitude is all around us. Just step into the crosswalk, you have the right of way. Go into a public restroom, the light goes on automatically, and turns off automatically, don't worry about turning lights off. (that's true in your house now too) My dashboard (and yours too maybe) always has the tire icon on reminding me my tire pressure may be low, even though I have checked the pressure and it's fine. The dealer says they can't get the light to go off. It is big brother doing your thinking for you so you don't have to. I believe we're all worse off for it. Life is inherently hazardous and all this mindset does if maybe make us a bit safer in some circumstances but also creates a blame someone else mentality, a victim mentality. Good for lawyers though.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
I've had this experience several times when driving west in the afternoon, whether on Hwy 12 or 116: A pedestrian walks out into the street without looking. They cross into the shade and the sun in is my eyes as a driver. I literally cannot see that someone is there. People have honked at me and given me angry looks. There is no time to explain what happened, just have to move on. Anyone have suggestions for this dilemma?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by spam1:
In China, the responsibility lies with the pedestrian, as it naturally should. The policy is "car first". Only at a controlled intersection (stop lights and crosswalk control) is the car responsible, but still pedestrians are cautious because they know cars are bigger and will kill them.
Conversely, here, when a pedestrian walks blithely into a crosswalk expecting cars to stop, a mistake is deadly to them. If that pedestrian instead expected that he should be responsible for not being hit, he would be much more careful.
The idea that "we've passed a law, so cars should stop" neglects the reality of the situation. Mistakes and distractions happen, and if a pedestrian expects a driver to be perfect, the pedestrian will pay the price. Thus I propose we change the law, and inform pedestrians that they are responsible for their own safety.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
I've discovered that this is a risky time to be driving west, when the sun is low in the sky. This is basically a "blinding" condition for drivers, as I'm sure we can all relate. For this reason, I try to be aware of the direction I need to drive in, and try to avoid driving at that time if I need to go west. I realize that most drivers aren't able to pick the time they drive, but if you are, this is a safer practice than just driving whenever. I also avoid driving in morning and afternoon commuter traffic whenever possible, especially since I no longer have to commute at those times. Actually all my appointments are made with that in mind. Being on the road is risky, but most of us probably don't think of it that way. I guess as I've aged, I feel more vulnerable, so I take extra precautions. This may protect YOU and ME!
I just remembered that there is a product to put on the top area of the windshield which reduces glare. I have one, and it's static cling, so you might check into that. Although if the sun is "low" it won't help much.
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Posted in reply to the post by mrsmoose1478:
I've had this experience several times when driving west in the afternoon, whether on Hwy 12 or 116: A pedestrian walks out into the street without looking. They cross into the shade and the sun in is my eyes as a driver. I literally cannot see that someone is there. People have honked at me and given me angry looks. There is no time to explain what happened, just have to move on. Anyone have suggestions for this dilemma?
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:
I've discovered that this is a risky time to be driving west, when the sun is low in the sky. ...
All the more reason for pedestrians to watch out and not step blithely into crosswalks thinking only that they have the right of way and traffic must stop for them. As a pedestrian they have an obligation to at least be aware of oncoming traffic.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
I suggest your priorities are in good shape -- in favor of safety. Those who honk at you and give you dirty looks either don't or won't see/ understand the hazard. Please don't let their misperceptions or impatience bully you into a hazardous reaction. Take their attitude with a grain of salt, and let it go, knowing you did the best you could.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by mrsmoose1478:
I've had this experience several times when driving west in the afternoon, whether on Hwy 12 or 116: A pedestrian walks out into the street without looking. They cross into the shade and the sun in is my eyes as a driver. I literally cannot see that someone is there. People have honked at me and given me angry looks. There is no time to explain what happened, just have to move on. Anyone have suggestions for this dilemma?
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
I believe we're seeing Darwinism at work here.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by jbox:
All the more reason for pedestrians to watch out and not step blithely into crosswalks thinking only that they have the right of way and traffic must stop for them. As a pedestrian they have an obligation to at least be aware of oncoming traffic.
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Greetings,
Two items of interest -
General Plan meeting on March 11, 6:30 p.m. (location not posted?). If you can not attend please send concerns and ideas to, Kenyon Webster at [email protected], to be addressed at the meeting.
https://ci.sebastopol.ca.us/node/3945
Secondly a excellent blog site by Paul Fritz, GP committee member on Sebastopol traffic.
https://smalltownurbanism.com/2014/1...affic-calming/
Do check-out his other posting on his blog Small Town Urbanism
Be heard! This is about the future of Sebastopol!
Glenclem
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Re: Sebastopol Pedestrains on trial
Doesn't it make most sense that EVERYONE be responsible ! This seems a good time and place to vent how irritating it is when people walk la ti da da da across the street like there the only person on earth. I'm from New York and I'll tell ya what, your butt would be like the cartoon where the motorist speeds over you and flattens you like a pancake ! You don't dare la ti da da da across the street, you run like hell !
:Thanks:
