Community rude to Pomo Dancers

During the Oct 12th Farmer's market there was a Pomo dance troup performing. One of my former students was one of the lead dancers. When I talked to her about the event she related to me that the community was very rude to the dancers and I promised to relay the message to this board. Keep in mind a couple of things;
1. The dancers are very decent kids and are, generally, not judgemental or quick to anger.
2. The dance that they performed is a sacred dance and has a strong spiritual significance to the Pomo community. They do the dances to spread awareness of their culture and values and art. The dancers work very hard at what they do.

Here is the actions that she related to me:

1. When the dancers formed a circle (considered to be a sacred circle) the audience was asked, politely, to go around the circle..they were asked this multiple times and were ignored by almost everyone. One person, a vendor, later on apologized for ignoring their polite requests.

2. People we touching and grabbing the costumes without permission..again the costumes have strong spiritual significance.

3. People were posing and snapping pictures of themselves with the dancers without permission.

4. When the pomos dancers objected they received a lot rude comments from people.

To maker an analogy imagine if someone were to walk up a choir at Western church, while they were singing and grab their gowns, snap selfies in front of them, walk in front of them etc.

My former student did say that they were treated much better last year.

While it is true that I wasn't present (and probably a good thing since I would have reacted stronger and more blunt then the dancers) I trust my former student's account. She has always been sweet, honest, sensitive, compassionate, and slow to anger.

I think the West County community (and particular) likes like play at being diverse and culturally sensitive while, beneath the surface, we are a mainly affluent, white culture with not much real world diversity or awareness ( we probably have the highest percent of white people of any So Co municipality.

I am sure I will receive the normal rude, insulting 'troll' responses. I hope that, within the typical noise there will be a strong signal of maturity and respectful responses.

Sal

I wish I were part of a tribe. I can't think of a better way to live, but that is beyond my grasp, and I wonder if the rudeness of these people who were themselves tribeless,might have felt this way, so watching something you were not invited into any more than simply observing another cultures feature without the invitation might not have had something to do with it?

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

During the Oct 12th Farmer's market there was a Pomo dance troup performing. One of my former students was one of the lead dancers. When I talked to her about the event she related to me that the community was very rude to the dancers and I promised to relay the message to this board. Keep in mind a couple of things;
1. The dancers are very decent kids and are, generally, not judgemental or quick to anger.
2. The dance that they performed is a sacred dance and has a strong spiritual significance to the Pomo community. They do the dances to spread awareness of their culture and values and art. The dancers work very hard at what they do.

Here is the actions that she related to me:

1. When the dancers formed a circle (considered to be a sacred circle) the audience was asked, politely, to go around the circle..they were asked this multiple times and were ignored by almost everyone. One person, a vendor, later on apologized for ignoring their polite requests.

2. People we touching and grabbing the costumes without permission..again the costumes have strong spiritual significance.

3. People were posing and snapping pictures of themselves with the dancers without permission.

4. When the pomos dancers objected they received a lot rude comments from people.

To maker an analogy imagine if someone were to walk up a choir at Western church, while they were singing and grab their gowns, snap selfies in front of them, walk in front of them etc.

My former student did say that they were treated much better last year.

While it is true that I wasn't present (and probably a good thing since I would have reacted stronger and more blunt then the dancers) I trust my former student's account. She has always been sweet, honest, sensitive, compassionate, and slow to anger.

I think the West County community (and particular) likes like play at being diverse and culturally sensitive while, beneath the surface, we are a mainly affluent, white culture with not much real world diversity or awareness ( we probably have the highest percent of white people of any So Co municipality.

I am sure I will receive the normal rude, insulting 'troll' responses. I hope that, within the typical noise there will be a strong signal of maturity and respectful responses.

Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by Thad:

I wish I were part of a tribe. I can't think of a better way to live, but that is beyond my grasp, and I wonder if the rudeness of these people who were themselves tribeless,might have felt this way, so watching something you were not invited into any more than simply observing another cultures feature without the invitation might not have had something to do with it?

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What ?!? Would someone translate this reply please ?

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

I puzzled over this too, taishon. Sometimes our feelings override our ability to express them. If I did not have a tribe, family, friends then I too might want to take on someone else's customs in order to have something. It's a form of theft, a cultural appropriation. It's a lonely child's wish to have connection. I hope, Thad, that I have understood?
https://waccobb.net/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Thad wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/image...post-right.png
I wish I were part of a tribe. I can't think of a better way to live, but that is beyond my grasp, and I wonder if the rudeness of these people who were themselves tribeless,might have felt this way, so watching something you were not invited into any more than simply observing another cultures feature without the invitation might not have had something to do with it?

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Ooookaay..not sure what any of that has to do with my original post but whatever floats yer boat...or, in this case, whatever petri dishes your culture...

I wasn't there so I can only speculate as to what happened. But I am wondering how the event was staged? Was there an announcement? Was the announcement amplified so most people could hear it? Was it advertised in advance so others might know about it (I don't recall seeing or hearing anything about it).

My point is that if people were not clear about the meaning of the presentation they might have simply assumed it was just a group of people using the square for their group. This happens frequently, so I can see how it might be perceived that way by some people. As a culture we are not used to spiritually focused presentations in public spaces. We are used to having those presentations in specified locations like churches and temples. Public spaces are normally used for what we think of as secular events; hence people might feel more free to interrupt. Again, I'm speculating and offering some observations in the hope that this kind of thing can be prevented in the future.

Thank you for writing this. My young great-nephew and niece are part Pomo and even though they don't dance outside their family group, this is just common sense in so many ways.

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

During the Oct 12th Farmer's market there was a Pomo dance troup performing. One of my former students was one of the lead dancers. When I talked to her about the event she related to me that the community was very rude to the dancers and I promised to relay the message to this board...

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

During the Oct 12th Farmer's market there was a Pomo dance troup performing. One of my former students was one of the lead dancers. When I talked to her about the event she related to me that the community was very rude to the dancers and I promised to relay the message to this board. Keep in mind a couple of things;
1. The dancers are very decent kids and are, generally, not judgemental or quick to anger.
2. The dance that they performed is a sacred dance and has a strong spiritual significance to the Pomo community. They do the dances to spread awareness of their culture and values and art. The dancers work very hard at what they do.

Here is the actions that she related to me:

1. When the dancers formed a circle (considered to be a sacred circle) the audience was asked, politely, to go around the circle..they were asked this multiple times and were ignored by almost everyone. One person, a vendor, later on apologized for ignoring their polite requests.

2. People we touching and grabbing the costumes without permission..again the costumes have strong spiritual significance.

3. People were posing and snapping pictures of themselves with the dancers without permission.

4. When the pomos dancers objected they received a lot rude comments from people.

To maker an analogy imagine if someone were to walk up a choir at Western church, while they were singing and grab their gowns, snap selfies in front of them, walk in front of them etc.

My former student did say that they were treated much better last year.

While it is true that I wasn't present (and probably a good thing since I would have reacted stronger and more blunt then the dancers) I trust my former student's account. She has always been sweet, honest, sensitive, compassionate, and slow to anger.

I think the West County community (and particular) likes like play at being diverse and culturally sensitive while, beneath the surface, we are a mainly affluent, white culture with not much real world diversity or awareness ( we probably have the highest percent of white people of any So Co municipality.


Sal

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John Donne (1572-1631), Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions

"Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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Posted in reply to the post by Jim Wilson:

I wasn't there so I can only speculate as to what happened. But I am wondering how the event was staged? Was there an announcement? Was the announcement amplified so most people could hear it? Was it advertised in advance so others might know about it (I don't recall seeing or hearing anything about it).

My point is that if people were not clear about the meaning of the presentation they might have simply assumed it was just a group of people using the square for their group. This happens frequently, so I can see how it might be perceived that way by some people. As a culture we are not used to spiritually focused presentations in public spaces. We are used to having those presentations in specified locations like churches and temples. Public spaces are normally used for what we think of as secular events; hence people might feel more free to interrupt. Again, I'm speculating and offering some observations in the hope that this kind of thing can be prevented in the future.

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And I wasn't there so I truly don't know the firsthand facts of what happened but I have confidence, based on experience, of my former students ability to honestly and accurately recount events. She did mention that there was an adult leader, asking via amplified microphone, for the audience to respect (and how to respect) the dancers and their circle...it could very well have been that many of the audience were excited and curious rather than intentionally impolite but her quotes of some of the rude comments, if accurate, were pretty obnoxious and hard to misinterpret. Again, she said the behavior was completely different last year. Simply hoping that this message reaches the larger community and, eventually, the ones who were , allegedly responsible for the breach. I would really hate for the dancers to refuse to do it in our community again.
Thanx,
Sal

Your comments are totally racist against white people and I do not appreciate it. Just because some of the people that attended this dance performance were rude and disrespectful by your account, that is not a reason for you to put out the comments that you've posted generalizing that all white people who live in Sonoma county are affluent, disrespectful, unknowledgeable about other cultures, basically ignorant and unworldly. If anything, it shows how you are racist, bigoted and narrow minded toward white people.

You need to post a "PUBLIC APOLOGY TO ALL OF THE WHITE PEOPLE" that live in Sonoma county that you have publicly insulted. If a white person put out what you've posted, they would be run out of town at the very least. You need to look at your spiritual path and work on your own prejudices before you publicly insult an entire community.

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

I think the West County community (and particular) likes like play at being diverse and culturally sensitive while, beneath the surface, we are a mainly affluent, white culture with not much real world diversity or awareness ( we probably have the highest percent of white people of any So Co municipality....

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BOTH: Love and Forgiveness

go hand in hand.

Each one of us can account for

100 Bad Memories from our past.



Forgiveness means:

acknowledging, then letting go of

the past events which anchors us there

and prevents us

from experiencing Love

in this *Here and Now.*



When we *Forgive Others* of:

their hypocrisies, and these atrocities,

and of their illiterate misunderstandings,

which make up all of our own

painful current memories,

We can move forward freely

hand in hand in Loving our way

into a Brighter Future.



'The Mourning Dove'

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Posted in reply to the post by Stargazer:

Your comments are totally racist against white people and I do not appreciate it. Just because some of the people that attended this dance performance were rude and disrespectful by your account, that is not a reason for you to put out the comments that you've posted generalizing that all white people who live in Sonoma county are affluent, disrespectful, unknowledgeable about other cultures, basically ignorant and unworldly. If anything, it shows how you are racist, bigoted and narrow minded toward white people.
You need to post a "PUBLIC APOLOGY TO ALL OF THE WHITE PEOPLE" that live in Sonoma county that you have publicly insulted. If a white person put out what you've posted, they would be run out of town at the very least. You need to look at your spiritual path and work on your own prejudices before you publicly insult an entire community.

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I am sad to hear people were rude to the Pomo Dancers. I think in general people's social skills and awareness have gone downhill. Strong cultural traditions like those demonstrated by the Pomo Dancers help create and reinforce a sense of belonging and respect within a society. How very unfortunate that they collided with those who have no sense of such things.

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Posted in reply to the post by Thad:

I wish I were part of a tribe. I can't think of a better way to live, but that is beyond my grasp, and I wonder if the rudeness of these people who were themselves tribeless,might have felt this way, so watching something you were not invited into any more than simply observing another cultures feature without the invitation might not have had something to do with it?

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Yes I am disappointed and frustrated with people when they are rude and disrespectful to anyone whoever they are. I agree that in general people's social skills and proper etiquette have gone down hill in these challenging and modern times. When people as a society are faced with so much trauma and fear about their survival many do not cope well. As a result, I agree they act out. This trait is world wide, not just white persons traits who happen to live in Sebastopol.

Usually I have noticed that people who drink alot of alcohol are much less inhibited and perhaps these rude individuals were patronizing the businesses at the Barlow by drinking too much alcohol. This about certain individuals. Not about white people in Sebastopol. It is unfair to generalize and suggest that this is a trait amongst white people who live in Sebastopol or anyone that is considered to be affluent in Sonoma county or elsewhere.

Many people are rude and I agree it is not okay and does not need to be tolerated. At the same time, it is not socially appropriate to bash an entire race based on a few rude individuals. They could have been tourists from anywhere and perhaps do not even live in Sebastopol.

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Posted in reply to the post by MarilynO:

I am sad to hear people were rude to the Pomo Dancers. I think in general people's social skills and awareness have gone downhill. Strong cultural traditions like those demonstrated by the Pomo Dancers help create and reinforce a sense of belonging and respect within a society. How very unfortunate that they collided with those who have no sense of such things.

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Soo..I am very white (in PC terms a 'person of bleach ness') which clearly puts you in the judgment and assumptions camp. The last paragraph of my original post was from me alone and not the Pomo dancers..regardless, it was, indeed my opinion based on my experience living in The West County..but an opinion based on pretty solid data that the West County is mainly affluent and white compared to most other Sonoma County communities....my comments were prejudiced against a specific element of theWest County not "All White People".
So..when I am 'run out of town' will it involve cross burning or pitch forks and torches ?

I think this post clearly belongs in the 'irrational troll variety' and deserves no further consideration.

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Posted in reply to the post by Stargazer:

Your comments are totally racist against white people and I do not appreciate it. Just because some of the people that attended this dance performance were rude and disrespectful by your account, that is not a reason for you to put out the comments that you've posted generalizing that all white people who live in Sonoma county are affluent, disrespectful, unknowledgeable about other cultures, basically ignorant and unworldly. If anything, it shows how you are racist, bigoted and narrow minded toward white people.
You need to post a "PUBLIC APOLOGY TO ALL OF THE WHITE PEOPLE" that live in Sonoma county that you have publicly insulted. If a white person put out what you've posted, they would be run out of town at the very least. You need to look at your spiritual path and work on your own prejudices before you publicly insult an entire community.

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

...So..when I am 'run out of town' will it involve cross burning or pitch forks and torches ?...

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I'm thinkin' torches... https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/m...ated_torch.gifhttps://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/m...ated_torch.gifhttps://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/m...ated_torch.gif

True..they may have been from out of town (which begs the question..why didn't the locals take notice and defend the dancers or call the breachers on their behavior) and the last paragraph of my original post was my opinion alone and not promoted by the dancers in any way..so, from a perfectly factual perspective the last paragraph is open to plenty of valid criticism.

My jaded opinion comes from the fact that I have spent most my adult life 'swimming' in truly racially diverse (or more accurately, non-white) communities and my judgmental opinion is that our mostly affluent white community (that label backed up by census data) tends to act accepting and diverse on the surface while being shallow, naive, patronizing, and racist beneath the surface. Feel free to disregard this opinion as being superfluous and subjective and not valid (though possibly true).

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Posted in reply to the post by Stargazer:

... They could have been tourists from anywhere and perhaps do not even live in Sebastopol.

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From Elizabeth --

I wonder how much of this is a direct result of "reality TV." There was once a channel called the "Learning Channel." It has currently descended to the gutter, and one of its offerings is a "reality" series loosely clustered around the concept of "Amish Mafia." These are distributed as portraying actual behaviour (reality), and from return emails on a site I visit, many people far away from these gentle folk think they are seeing real behaviour. I am pleased to be part of a movement to correct this. ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/Lanc...shSploitation/) is the FB link, but it's not an open list. Just ask.

My point here is to suggest that the juggernaut of "reality TV" fosters a notion that subsets of culture, folks who have a cohesive identity that is imperfectly known to you, are cartoon clusters positioned for your entertainment. They are not human beings as valid as yourself, so your response to them can legitimately be in cartoon style.

I don't have any concept of how to reverse this. Thoughts,anyone?

Elizabeth Fuller

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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:

From Elizabeth --


My point here is to suggest that the juggernaut of "reality TV" fosters a notion that subsets of culture, folks who have a cohesive identity that is imperfectly known to you, are cartoon clusters positioned for your entertainment. They are not human beings as valid as yourself, so your response to them can legitimately be in cartoon style.

I don't have any concept of how to reverse this. Thoughts,anyone?

Elizabeth Fuller

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To be quite honest, I don’t believe that it’s TV’s influence (per se). I believe (from my own 40 years of observations) that this is the culture that our parents and grandparents have created. Rude at any cost because it’s all about me. Most folks don’t know it until something like this wakes them up, opens their eyes or calls it to their attention. (I am a White People myself) and I didn’t take offense to that comment. I understood where Sal was coming from. She has a right to be angry, (those are genuine “feelings” folks). “Empathy” is a foreign thing if one cannot see pain or joy from another person’s POV. I will say that I have had my share of bad experiences from the affluent of West County too.The irony is: that many west co. residents seemed to proclaim to be evolved, psychologically astute, and spiritually enlightened on the one hand, while taking the money they owed me out of my pocket with the other hand.

But, this isn’t a Rant Party. I do believe that (anyone who truly cares) about these Pomo Friends and neighbors should apologize for the community’s behaviors during this Dance Performance.

I am Sorry Dancers. Please Forgive Me.
Sincerely, Tim Gega

Just a minor clarification...I am a 'he' and not a 'she' :0)

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

...She has a right to be angry, (those are genuine “feelings” folks). ...

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

Just a minor clarification...I am a 'he' and not a 'she' :0)

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So sorry, taison: I thought that the original post was from Sal. Thats who I was referring to.

The orginal post is from Sal. Sal and Taishon are one and the same and both me. Last time I checked (and I check often) I am male :0) No apology necessary though, if you met me in person, I doubt you would be confused. My goth metrosexual David Bowie days are long gone some 30 years ago.

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Posted in reply to the post by Timothy Gega:

So sorry, taison: I thought that the original post was from Sal. Thats who I was referring to.

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

The orginal post is from Sal. Sal and Taishon are one and the same and both me...

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Thanks for the clarification Bro.:thumbsup:

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I think the West County community (and particular) likes like play at being diverse and culturally sensitive while, beneath the surface, we are a mainly affluent, white culture with not much real world diversity or awareness ( we probably have the highest percent of white people of any So Co municipality.

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Although Taishon can only speculate about our collective awareness as a community, I see nothing in the post that can objectively be considered untrue. To charge racism only makes his/her point.

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Posted in reply to the post by Stargazer:

Your comments are totally racist against white people and I do not appreciate it. Just because some of the people that attended this dance performance were rude and disrespectful by your account, that is not a reason for you to put out the comments that you've posted generalizing that all white people who live in Sonoma county are affluent, disrespectful, unknowledgeable about other cultures, basically ignorant and unworldly. If anything, it shows how you are racist, bigoted and narrow minded toward white people.

You need to post a "PUBLIC APOLOGY TO ALL OF THE WHITE PEOPLE" that live in Sonoma county that you have publicly insulted. If a white person put out what you've posted, they would be run out of town at the very least. You need to look at your spiritual path and work on your own prejudices before you publicly insult an entire community.

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Yes, paying attention to what is happening and being respectful is common sense. In Europe there is a phrase, "ugly American," for those who are insensitive and trample over other cultures.

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Posted in reply to the post by forveterans49:

Thank you for writing this. My young great-nephew and niece are part Pomo and even though they don't dance outside their family group, this is just common sense in so many ways.

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

To maker an analogy imagine if someone were to walk up a choir at Western church, while they were singing and grab their gowns, snap selfies in front of them, walk in front of them etc.

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not to minimize the local rudeness, but people do this as well. Well, maybe not interrupting the singing.. but in this irreligious age there's not a lot of respect shown in historic cathedrals or missions, even when they're still holding services.
This era isn't going to be remembered for its respect for traditions or traditional institution. And a lot of westerners aren't going to be remembered for their respect for others, either. The term "Ugly American" isn't recent and has some interesting connotations - but it's not only Americans who sometimes act like the world is a show put on only for them.

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Posted in reply to the post by Stargazer:

Your comments are totally racist against white people and I do not appreciate it. ...You need to post a "PUBLIC APOLOGY TO ALL OF THE WHITE PEOPLE" that live in Sonoma county that you have publicly insulted. If a white person put out what you've posted, they would be run out of town at the very least..

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oh, I don't think the postulated white person would be running all that fast. I think us white people can take it.
I don't appreciate it particularly; I don't think it's particularly relevant that this county is full of affluent whites - there's no reason to think this county's demographics make it ruder than most - but there's no reason to leap to white people's defense here. Let's save it till we're closer to the revolution. I do see that the dancers felt that because this dance had cultural significance it deserved respect, and interpreted the rudeness to cultural disrespect from the majority. That's not an unreasonable way to react. I just think that it's not likely true - I bet people from all cultural traditions are perfectly capable of being rude.