Horse people, what do you think?
I have some relatively new neighbors who have 4 horses they seem to be training for dressage. I know little about horses and less about dressage, but these animals seem to me to be mistreated.
The ONLY time they get to move is when they are being ridden in tight little circles or when they are being led on a short lead. The rest of the time they are in a shed or tied up to a tree for fence. Some days I don't see them at all, so they must be inside the sheds. They NEVER get to graze or walk about under their own control. One horse in particular seems unhappy with the situation and does a great deal of neighing. I see it tied up from both sides of its mouth so that it can't move its head more than a few inches in any direction. It sometimes explodes with a loud, angry sounding neigh.
Is this typical for dressage? Is this normal? An acquaintance who does dressage in France says that it isn't and that these people shouldn't own horses. Is there anything I can do?
Barrie
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
Dressage is a precise sport that depends on absolute control and communication between horse and rider. While I can't comment based on your description about what is going on with your neighbors, what is important to all horses is that they are allowed time each day to be in their herd and to graze and move freely. These conditions are essential to their mental and physical health.
Some people who get involved with equine sports are not educated
fully about what a horse needs to be happy, and healthy. I suggest you google "dressage" and learn more about the sport so you can better judge for yourself the conditions of your neighbor's horses. For example, neighing is language to a horse and can mean many things. All sports require training and that includes some frustration. But many horses also love to compete and through training and competition find joy in the horse & rider partnership. This is an area that as an observer and a non-horse-person, it would be difficult for you to interpret.
To sum up, even if I may not agree with some of your neighbor's training choices around restraint (this is a "for instance"), my first concern is that these horses are well cared for and have freedom each day to graze. exercise freely and be with each-other since that is what is essential to their health. That IS something you can observe or find out more about.
Feel free to contact me and perhaps others more closely involved in the sport of dressage. And thank you for caring.
Feel free to contact me.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barrie:
I have some relatively new neighbors who have
4 horses they seem to be training for dressage. I know little about horses and less about dressage, but these animals seem to me to be
mistreated.
The ONLY time they get to move is when they are being ridden in tight little circles or when they are being led on a short lead. The rest of the time they are in a shed or tied up to a tree for fence. Some days I don't see them at all, so they must be inside the sheds. They NEVER get to graze or walk about under their own control. One horse in particular seems unhappy with the situation and does a great deal of neighing. I see it tied up from both sides of its mouth so that it can't move its head more than a few inches in any direction. It sometimes explodes with a loud, angry sounding neigh.
Is this typical for dressage? Is this normal? An acquaintance who does dressage in France says that it isn't and that these people shouldn't own horses. Is there anything I can do?
Barrie
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
I don't know much about horses but this does NOT sound good. I would get a hold of Humane Society or search for horse organizations here in the county. If all those things you described are going on in dressage, I wouldn't want any part of it...sounds awful--like Tennessee 'walking' horses and their abusive life.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barrie:
I have some relatively new neighbors who have 4 horses they seem to be training for dressage. I know little about horses and less about dressage, but these animals seem to me to be mistreated. ...
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
HELLO,
I think you should report them to the Humane Society and let them decide.
It sounds like a horrible life for a horse and I'm thankful you are concerned.
I can tell when an animal is mistreated and I think you can too.
Respectfully,
Suzanne
:waccosun:
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
What I think is: If anyway witnesses anything that appears to be abusive to an animal and of course a child....do as you did ....check out your perceptions with those who are experienced......and if abuse is happening...report it to proper authorities...in this case the humane society.....and is no action is taken...and you are still concerned...take further action by bringing in vets and horse folks to observe what is going on and get some professional clout to get some action with authorities....
Also, if anyone is observing abuse of a child (Verbal abuse, physical, sexual, abandonment)...please get some help for this child....To me, being a parent is a privilege, not a right.....and it is the most important job there is to help this child grow to be a healthy happy adult....If this privilege is being abused, call Child Protective Services...and no action taken...call in professionals to witness and again, get documentation from several folks to get some help for this child....As a therapist, I am very concerned about how much child abuse is going on...keeping our children safe doesn't seem to be a priority in this country..or around the world....so I think that it is a village..and we all need to pay attention to how children and animals are being treated...and we all can make a difference to support this.
Jane Eldridge MFT
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barrie:
I know little about horses and less about dressage, but these animals seem to me to be mistreated.
Barrie,
The first and biggest alarm I see is in your own admission, and the admission of others here on this board who are hot-to-trot to the "proper authorities;" that you know little about horses and less about dressage. Yet, every one wants to be a good-doer by reporting something they know little to nothing about. I do applaud you for reaching out for advice, but be very careful of letting an ignorant, bleeding heart and equally ignorant, bleeding heart advice lead you down a path that may very well result in nothing but ill feelings between you and your neighbor. Here are some things to think about.
1) This was already mentioned, but I feel the need to reinforce it.... It takes time and discipline to develop the kind of relationship that a dressage horse and its riders requires to perform well (which means not just ribbons and trophies, but safety for both horse and rider). Think of it like a service dog... a well trained one does not HAVE to go to the dog park and socialize with its kind to be happy and healthy. In fact, a well trained dog (service or not) is usually not found socializing/exercising at the dog park... it's owner is all it requires, for love, stimulation, guidance, protection, play, etc. Many good-doers will tell you a dog HAS to run and play with its own kind, but you know that's simply not true. The relationship between horse and rider can be the exact same way.
2) You don't know what kind of training program these horses are part of. You don't know the mental or physical state of each horse. Some horses need to rest in solitude after or in-between training. Lessons can go right out the window if a horse is more interested in galavanting with its friends than paying attention to its rider. Time-out in between lessons is a chance for the animal to process what it's just learned. My horse rides much better when he's not plucked from the field and taken from his free-time, but rather, from his stall. When he understands that his free time is on my terms, he's a much more obedient creature, versus when he thinks my time is on his terms (a much more dangerous proposition). Furthermore, horses that are in rigorous training need to go easy on their joints and ligaments. Have you ever had a dog or cat that required rest and limited mobility...for whatever reason? Animals are difficult to reason with... you don't "ask" them to take it easy, you require it of them.
3) My horse is in his stall most of the time right now...why? Not because he's a dressage horse, not because he's abused and neglected...because I have to also balance the needs of my horse with the needs of the land. I obviously don't know what kind of land management practices might be in play here, but there's not a whole lot of grazing to be done this time of year. I'm giving the ground a rest, and the little bit of grass-root a break so that it has a chance to come back in the fall, so that there WILL BE something to graze when the seasons change. Furthermore, an animal aimlessly grazing on little to nothing is burning calories just looking for food, calories they may or may not be needing to burn. If they are in the ring burning calories, developing muscle, and mental discipline, then you may not want your animal to be out in a field burning more calories.
4) Animals make sounds for all sorts of reasons. I had someone call 911 because my milk cow moo'd incessantly for the first few weeks when she first arrived. Someone who "knew cows" just "knew she was in distress." The cow had had a change, like anyone who moves to a new home. She was looking for her kind, yes, but she was not being abused, she was not in any pain, she was just transitioning. To keep her quite (more-so, to keep my local good-doer, whom I never even met, from calling 911) I kept throwing hay her way every time she made a sound. Soon, she didn't give two-bits about being with her kind... she was mooing because she had ME trained. It did stop her mooing, and stopped the "emergency reporting," but it also made her fat, and she had to go on a diet before dropping her calf. She eventually got over it and is happy as punch. Meanwhile, my horse will neigh and take off running if he hears the recorded sound of a horse on the radio or phone. My dairy goat cries for the attention of any human that walks by, because she's spoiled by them and hence prefers the company of people over goats. An animal making sound does not equal distress or abuse.
Don't be THAT neighbor... the ignorant one who is quick to put the label of "abuse" on that which you do not know much about, and feeling justified because you found the support here from people who know even less. Go talk to your neighbors. Ask them about themselves, their horses, their program... and not in that creepy accusatory investigative way. Who knows, you might just learn something about horses, dressage, or even something wonderful about your neighbors that you never imagined. If it's abuse, you'll be able to tell, but from my perspective- nothing that you have described sounds like abuse to me. It sounds like something you're unfamiliar and therefore uncomfortable with. Yes, we all need to be the safe-keepers of animals and children, but we also do not need to be that nosey johnny-good-doer that goes reporting everything we see and do not understand or agree with- lack of understanding or agreement does NOT "abuse" make.
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
Well I would rather see folks "hot to trot"..then too much of ignoring abuse of an animal or a child....As a therapist, I have heard too many horror stories of abuse...and those in the family, neighbors, or the community of professionals knew about it and did nothing ....If you are concerned, please take action to find out:...is there abuse going on or not?. If the abuse is stopped, ..the animal or child will be very grateful. Please don't label people as "bleeding hearts" who care....Yes, there are situation where perhaps folks are too nosey...for no reason ...However I think that if there is possible abuse going on, why not do something to find out for sure.....My experience is more folks sit back and do nothing...and suffering could have been avoided. And if you are taking proper care of your horse, why do you care if people try to help with a possible abusive situation?
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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:
Barrie,
The first and biggest alarm I see is in your own admission, and the admission of others here on this board who are hot-to-trot to the "proper authorities;" that you know little about horses and less about dressage. Yet, every one wants to be a good-doer by reporting something they know little to nothing about. I do applaud you for reaching out for advice....
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
This is in no way typical for dressage, or any other responsible method of training, but unfortunately not infrequent in the horse world, and typical of too many horse owners. Like all beings that rely on others for care too many people have power over animals that should not have animals under their care. Additionally horse training like every other occupation has a good number of people who have no business calling themselves a trainer.
As a dressage/former event rider, and one who uses a dressage foundation with a natural horsemanship emphasis, most of what you describe sounds wrong. This is not about an English or Western Style of training, but about good skills dealing with these spectacular animals. Horses that are well trained can be walked on a looser line, the line doesn't contain them, with proper training, like dogs, they contain themselves. Even good training can appear ugly, but over a period of time you should see, horses that are co.operative, ones that lead well, and ones that get turned out.
Horses that are kept in stalls or paddocks, should be exercised minimally every other day, unless recovering from an injury. A small circle can be a helpful training tool, but repeatedly, in one training session, one needs to "go large" or straight (the full arena, field, or area they are working in) because endless small circles can be hard on their legs, and not be helpful as a tool when a reward, (perhaps stopping the small circle) is missing.
All good trainers want to end on a good note, occasionally there are days when we have to figure out what is good to end a session, but if you watch a full session, the rider/trainer will look for a positive note to bring a session to a successful end.
If the horses are well fed, and look healthy, well cared for feet, healthy coat, there may be little to do. I can see where someone may watch 5 minutes of responsible training, and out of context, think it was detrimental.
All horses should have an opportunity to be a horse, which includes access to turn out in a space where they can run and roll, along with social interactions with other horses.
Having a horse in a stall, is not a problem in and of itself.
If they are kept in a confined space, that is too small, and they are not in a restricted space to recover from an injury animal control may have some interest.
Standard stalls are 12x12, but there are "standing stalls that are much smaller", where horses get regular exercise, that are not a lst choice for most, but can work.
The reality is there are so many abandoned, starved, and severely abused horses, that poor training usually doesn't qualify unless the offense is deemed abusive by most. As someone who runs a "horse rescue" we, like most, are almost always full. The options for horses are more limited than for dogs and cats, because hay is expensive, humane euthanasia is costly, and outlawing of slaughter in most US states, means most horses in the Western US, who are unwanted, end up at auctions, where the majority endure an Auschwitz like transport, and a death that is akin to torture.
We would love for individuals who want to help address these injustices to take a tour of our farm on most Saturdays, and talk about the horses that are here and the issues involved in rescue.
We are an all volunteer organization and are always looking for skilled volunteers (handy men/ handy women), carpenters, sign painters, sheet rockers, fence builders for a small job (one to three hours), and horse skilled, or less skilled volunteers, who want to be a part of an organization that tries to change the world for horses, and the people who love them.
if people are interested they can go to our website www.welltrainedhorses.com or email me through this post, or directly, [email protected].
I have a couple of other ideas besides calling animal control for an assessment, as most of the cases they deal with are brutal. If someone would want to pursue this, i could share some suggestions with one who was willing to follow up. Observing a full training session would be helpful start.
Sonoma county is a home to a great number of horses, and informed eyes on the ground are a wonderful thing.
Thanks for your concern Barrie. Though those of us in the business have run across our share of concerned eyes that were not informed. It would be wonderful if your post lead to a better outcome for these, or other horses that need intervention to improve their fate.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barrie:
I have some relatively new neighbors who have 4 horses they seem to be training for dressage. I know little about horses and less about dressage, but these animals seem to me to be mistreated....
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
I grew up with horses and our farm in Oregon is next to an internationally known stables that specializes in Dressage and boarding these types of horses, who alternately are stabled and put to pasture to run, graze and kick up their heels. What you describe, Barry, definitely sounds not at all like I have ever treated a horse, or seen a horse treated - i.e. - it sounds abusive, and I agree with calling some sort of animal control expert to evaluate the situation.
I love horses - and by the way, would love to ride again if someone's horse needs the exercise!
Pamela Lewis
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jane Eldridge:
And if you are taking proper care of your horse, why do you care if people try to help with a possible abusive situation?
When I was a little girl (7 or 8 years old), presumably having some issues at school, my father said to me,"Nancy, I don't ever expect you to back down from a fight. Ever. You have the right to protect yourself, defend yourself, and fight for what you believe in. And I will always support you. Always. There's just one thing. You better make damn sure you're in the right. Because if you're in the wrong, you're gonna have a bigger problem than whatever problem you think you have," and with a stern look it was made clear that he would be my problem. I thought that was a very fair deal! It kept me out of a lot of trouble and taught me not to enter battles lightly. And when I did need his support, he was right there, keeping his end of the bargain because I kept mine.
I get that you're an MFT, but I'm interested to know more about your experience and expertise with horses, or just animals in general... because animals are not humans, and while we love to project our human emotions onto animals, it can lead to false assumptions and perceptions....and that does no one (animal or human) any good. I would never leave a child standing in the rain, but a horse does just fine under a tree. To answer your question above, I care because if someone is taking proper care of their animal, an ignorant accusation of abuse is a SERIOUS affront. It's like saying a teenage daughter who is comfortable still sitting on her father's lap and giving him a kiss on the lips (a physical relationship I never had with my dad, but my best friend and her dad had, and still do to this day at 40), might possibly be another Mackenzie Phillips! Best to report to be on the safe side! Now a dead-end report has tainted an otherwise beautiful relationship. Paranoia, fear, worry about who's looking, but doesn't know what they're looking at... but is more than happy to report!
False accusations can and do cause damage, whether you see it or not. Nobody with a child or animal that they love and care for deserves to be falsely accused. "Proper care" is relative. "Abuse" really comes down to the basics: food, water, shelter. I am by no means saying ignore abuse. That would be ridiculous. I'm just saying, do what you can to make damn sure you're right, first. If you have the guts to pick up the phone and report, why not have the guts to strike up a conversation with your neighbors and ask about their horses and training... as a first step. But you know..... whatever floats your boat..... some people are "reporters".... report away! I just prefer for myself, and am encouraging here, to learn about that which you admit you don't know much about, before you go saving the day.
Re: Horse people, what do you think?
Good post actually, to be sure a situation exists regarding investigating the horse situation, and not label it "abusive" but simply questioning - so far. It occurs to me that the days the horse is not seen it could have been trailered to Nirvana. Nevertheless, when it comes to any animal, food, water and shelter are not sufficient in and of themselves; exercise is also important, and personally I think outside time as well. I find excessive confinement abusive, and if "experts" and "authorities" differ with me, I suspect they are simply not in touch with their own animal Nature. We tend to forget we are mammals ourselves.....
