What punishment does Efren deserve?
What punishment do you think he deserves? Castration?
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Posted in reply to the post by Helen Shane:
Earlier I had decided not to engage further on Efren's behavior, but I find when you say we lived with Monica and it follows with Spitzer's ''dates", and Sanford's mistress; all these women were partners in consensual relationships. Efren's offense was quite the opposite. He tried to engage, in one degree or another, in an activity that was unwelcome and evidently feared by a woman who had not consented to or invited such engagement.
This is not acceptable, not a boyish prank, not forgivable because he was affected by alcohol. He apparently needs treatment and so does his victim. And his public service does not exempt him from facing up to this behavior and its impacts, either on his family, on his victim, on his constituency. I wish he would simply resign and get on with finding treatment, not only for substance abuse but for what appears to be, from the publicly known episodes in the past year, but for other reports of his apparent delusion that women are to be used and exist for his exploitation and singular self indulgence. Boys will be boys just won't wash for a public official who has sworn to serve honorably. That is a 24/7 pledge.
Re: 5th Supervisorial District Town Hall meetings November 18, 20, and 21
My own thinking would be that Mr. Carrillo will not resign or be recalled. The process that I would like to see is not one of punishment but of reconciliation and forgiveness. My thinking is that forgiveness requires admitting one's wrongs, genuine remorse, and asking for forgiveness. The common defense for politicians these days in alcoholism, which I doubt is adequate to explain this whole matter.
I do want to point out that those who compare what Mr. Carrillo did to the actions of other politicians, such as JFK and Bill Clinton, are engaging in the classic fallacy of a false analogy. The difference in what they did is that their use of power was consensual, with the woman agreeing. In the Carrillo case, the victim is still quite upset, has an attorney, and apparently feels traumatized by what she perceived as the threat of an unwanted entry into her home.
Personally, I do not think that talking about castration helps this discussion. It lowers it. The reconciliation that I have in mind would spread beyond the supervisor and his victim to those of us who have different points of view on this matter and would benefit from remaining friends in the county that we all love so much. That way we can continue to celebrate Thanksgiving and attend parties together and have fun, in spite of differences that we may have on many issues. This matter is not likely to be resolved soon, perhaps not for years, so I hope that we can agree to disagree agreeably.
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Posted in reply to the post by tommy:
What punishment do you think he deserves? Castration?
Re: 5th Supervisorial District Town Hall meetings November 18, 20, and 21
Dear Tommy - No, I don't think castration is in order or that it is a viable remedy for the behavior that Efren demonstrates, more than once, any more than I think that capital punishment is a remedy for criminal behavior. What I do believe is that Efren needs to understand that he has placed women in a class of people who do not deserve his respect. That went our with the belief that women were chattels to their husband, could not vote, could not serve in the military, could not get a loan without permission of a spouse and, in some countries, could not appear in public without being escorted by a mail relative.
Trying to break into any home is criminal; trying to break into the home of a single woman at night is terrifying, and has long-lasting consequences of insecurity in the woman.
What I do suggest is that he should resign, once he has achieved pension vesting in January, if he feels he deserves that much, and that he should seek counseling for his behavior. There is a wonderful website that really describes such behavior, its possible escalation, and prescribes professional counseling. Have a look:
https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/...en_abuse_women
and then let's talk some more.
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Posted in reply to the post by tommy:
What punishment do you think he deserves? Castration?
Re: What punishment does Efren deserve?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by tommy:
What punishment do you think he deserves? Castration?
I think Efren has been "punished" quite a bit already. He has endured wide spread disdain, disgust and ridicule throughout the county, a persistent stain on his once sterling resume and no doubt enormous shame.
He should certainly be convicted of a misdemeanor if not a felony. That might be a hideable for a less public person, but it will follow him for years, even if not convicted, so long as he remains in Northern California, and especially in any attempt to run for public office.
I have not doubt that we have "gotten his attention" and experienced much pain and remorse around the incident, and seems to have undertaken appropriate treatment for his problems.
But two further issues remain: restitution for the victim and whether he owes a "debt to society".
Certainly the victim should be compensated for his egregious intrusion into her property and sense of safety. How that should be done I can't really say. Seems like a financial settlement is in order, a restraining order order and perhaps more.
Regarding debt to society, that seems appropriate as well, but in what form? Prison time is silly and just adds more cost to society. Public service is more appropriate but what? Talks to other offenders? Filling potholes? Sorting recycling? :hmmm:
What do you think would be productive, not just punitive "punishment" for Efren?? Seems like it should further drive home the lessons of his offense, as well as being a service to society.
Re: 5th Supervisorial District Town Hall meetings November 18, 20, and 21
Thank you, Shepherd, for your thoughtful response to the question about the appropriate punishment for Efren.
As someone who spent years working with juvenile and young adult offenders in a restorative justice process, what Shepherd is suggesting sounds very much like a restorative conference where the offender, the victim and their support people, along with law enforcement, meet to thoroughly discuss the real impacts on everyone involved. They then come up with a plan for the offender to try to make it as right as possible with all who were affected, including the wider community.
Punishment does not work. If it did our prisons would be a thing of the past. Restorative processes DO work extremely well. Victims feel that they are heard and understood, law enforcement personnel get a rare opportunity to share what it's like for them as human beings, and the offender almost always gets a deeper understanding of how everything they do impacts others. They also are given an opportunity to make REAL amends; meaningful actions towards repairing the harm they did along with changing their misguided beliefs and opinions that got them to the place of wrong action. After the process of meeting and completing the atonement plan of action, the offender is welcomed back into the community because he/she has shown that they sincerely are remorseful and that they care about the person they harmed. They are not stigmatized, which can lead to repeat offending. This is how indigenous peoples have handled these kinds of situations for thousands of years because it works.
Frankly, I am disturbed by the revenge fantasy element of the discussions I've seen online about Efren. I agree with Shepherd that talk of castration lowers the discussion.
We like to think of ourselves as very progressive here in Sonoma County, but isn't it interesting how quickly we move into hateful talk about revenge?
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
My own thinking would be that Mr. Carrillo will not resign or be recalled. The process that I would like to see is not one of punishment but of reconciliation and forgiveness. My thinking is that forgiveness requires admitting one's wrongs, genuine remorse, and asking for forgiveness. The common defense for politicians these days in alcoholism, which I doubt is adequate to explain this whole matter.
I do want to point out that those who compare what Mr. Carrillo did to the actions of other politicians, such as JFK and Bill Clinton, are engaging in the classic fallacy of a false analogy. The difference in what they did is that their use of power was consensual, with the woman agreeing. In the Carrillo case, the victim is still quite upset, has an attorney, and apparently feels traumatized by what she perceived as the threat of an unwanted entry into her home.
Personally, I do not think that talking about castration helps this discussion. It lowers it. The reconciliation that I have in mind would spread beyond the supervisor and his victim to those of us who have different points of view on this matter and would benefit from remaining friends in the county that we all love so much. That way we can continue to celebrate Thanksgiving and attend parties together and have fun, in spite of differences that we may have on many issues. This matter is not likely to be resolved soon, perhaps not for years, so I hope that we can agree to disagree agreeably.
Re: What punishment does Efren deserve?
Thank you, Barry, for your wise words around this issue.
I already posted about restorative justice and within that framework I could see Efren doing an intensive "class" in the impacts of domestic violence and sexual assault on women. I could see him having to listen to many victims of both crimes, including his own victim, if she were willing, as I stated in my earlier post. He could then possibly commit to working for our local domestic violence and sexual assault advocacy organizations, possible fundraising and/or speaking publicly about what he has learned about his impact on his victim. He could share his story with teenage boys, who, unfortunately, still have an antiquated attitude about girls and young women, that they are only there for men's use and abuse.
If given the opportunity to change even further than he already has (it's quite obvious, as Barry stated, that Efren is feeling deep shame and remorse about what he did) he could make a good difference and possibly prevent other young men from making the same terrible mistake in judgment. Isn't that what we all want? To see this young man change for the good from all of this and help others learn from his mistake? Or do we want to exile him forever from our community?
And how about the victim? Doesn't she deserve a voice in all of this? Doesn't she deserve to be heard, her pain revealed and understood? Doesn't she deserve to have Efren make true amends so she can move forward with her life? If victims are not given an opportunity to tell the perpetrator of the crime against them exactly how they feel about what happened, it's very easy and more likely that they will get stuck in that victim role, which makes it more likely that they will be victimized again. She also needs to be part of the decision about how Efren will make amends.
Whatever is decided for Efren to do to make real amends, it needs to be something meaningful for all involved and NOT some arbitrary sentence to community service or jail time. Barry is right- jail time is silly. I'll also add that it is ineffective and tends to harm the offender to the point that they become hardened and more likely to re-offend.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Barry:
I think Efren has been "punished" quite a bit already. He has endured wide spread disdain, disgust and ridicule throughout the county, a persistent stain on his once sterling resume and no doubt enormous shame.
He should certainly be convicted of a misdemeanor if not a felony. That might be a hideable for a less public person, but it will follow him for years, even if not convicted, so long as he remains in Northern California, and especially in any attempt to run for public office.
I have not doubt that we have "gotten his attention" and experienced much pain and remorse around the incident, and seems to have undertaken appropriate treatment for his problems.
But two further issues remain: restitution for the victim and whether he owes a "debt to society".
Certainly the victim should be compensated for his egregious intrusion into her property and sense of safety. How that should be done I can't really say. Seems like a financial settlement is in order, a restraining order order and perhaps more.
Regarding debt to society, that seems appropriate as well, but in what form? Prison time is silly and just adds more cost to society. Public service is more appropriate but what? Talks to other offenders? Filling potholes? Sorting recycling? :hmmm:
What do you think would be productive, not just punitive "punishment" for Efren?? Seems like it should further drive home the lessons of his offense, as well as being a service to society.
