Efren Carrillo and Progressive Credibility
I was not at the Board of Supervisors meeting. If I had been there, I would have spoken emphatically in support of Efren Carrillo staying on the job.
Why wasn't I there? Because my professional responsibilities required me to be at work. I think many of Efren's supporters are at work every day, and don't have the luxury of time to attend meetings or state their opinions. The amount of time some people are devoting to ranting against Efren boggles my mind.
What disturbs me more, however, is the effect on public perception of the progressive movement. Suppose I were a middle-of-the-road working person. Seeing the way progressives have twisted meager information about what happened on July 13 into a full-blown drama of sexual aggression, behaving like a lynch mob playing a diabolical game of telephone, I would no longer grant credibility to progressive claims about other, more urgent issues.
If we can't wait for the facts about a local public servant, how can anyone trust us about GMO's, fluoridation, the Hobbs winery, or climate change? Did we wait for facts on these matters? Or are our statements about these vital issues just as trumped up? Efren Carrillo may be your target, but the collateral damage is severe.
Re: Efren Carrillo and Progressive Credibility
A Grand Slam for Reason, Sandoak :WaccoRays:
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Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:
...If we can't wait for the facts about a local public servant, how can anyone trust us about GMO's, fluoridation, the Hobbs winery, or climate change? Did we wait for facts on these matters? Or are our statements about these vital issues just as trumped up? Efren Carrillo may be your target, but the collateral damage is severe.
Re: Efren Carrillo and Progressive Credibility
Ah so I guess I get your point ,you think "hard working people will somehow benefit from Carrillo's smarmy politics, as I see it he was simply positioned right to get the new wave of votes,plus all the people who benefit from development and environmental devastation in this county .
I do not care so much about his ridiculous clown show in the bushes.(and I think in any other job it would get you fired) I was at an important environmental event he came to to show his "support" ,he showed up late,((in his shiny fruit boots,all sleeked back and pretty)) got on stage and said nothing nothing nothing,got off and left with no more than one or two sentences of nothing to those who invited him there.
at least five of the greatest leaders in permaculture were present that he could have met , talked with and learned from,with no danger of any dirt rubbing off into his pomade..He showed ignorance and the desire to remain ignorant.
As I see it, the guy is a SMARMY do good boy for big business interests period,so if that's what you think makes a good representative,vote him back in, and that's what you will get. Some districts need to learn from their mistakes.
He IS a member of the Hispanic community and its really sad and stupid that he has let them down this way,I think its great and important to have representation from all walks of life ,and I would welcome a good republican member of the same community,even though I disagree with them, to argue with,to laugh with to eat great food and drink with! But not a phoney.
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Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:
I was not at the Board of Supervisors meeting. If I had been there, I would have spoken emphatically in support of Efren Carrillo staying on the job.
Why wasn't I there? Because my professional responsibilities required me to be at work. I think many of Efren's supporters are at work every day, and don't have the luxury of time to attend meetings or state their opinions. The amount of time some people are devoting to ranting against Efren boggles my mind.
What disturbs me more, however, is the effect on public perception of the progressive movement. Suppose I were a middle-of-the-road working person. Seeing the way progressives have twisted meager information about what happened on July 13 into a full-blown drama of sexual aggression, behaving like a lynch mob playing a diabolical game of telephone, I would no longer grant credibility to progressive claims about other, more urgent issues.
If we can't wait for the facts about a local public servant, how can anyone trust us about GMO's, fluoridation, the Hobbs winery, or climate change? Did we wait for facts on these matters? Or are our statements about these vital issues just as trumped up? Efren Carrillo may be your target, but the collateral damage is severe.
Re: Efren Carrillo and Progressive Credibility
I am really getting very frustrated with the continued character assassination of someone who has still not had any legal findings regarding this matter. If folks out there had some sort of grasp of the difficulties that are inherent in substance abuse treatment and some even mild grasp of the American's with Disabilities Act and it's applicability to this man's situation it would be very helpful. I seem to hear the opportunistic strain of folks trying to undo an election with the events of that night as a cover for their motive. I am so sad that there is so little compassion for ALL involved that night.
I speak as someone who is a survivor of a violent, near fatal sexual assault as a young woman, and also someone who has had years in recovery and abstinence from alcohol addiction.I am looking at the issues represented by the entire incident folks are discussing . I worked most of my working life with people who were addicted to one thing or another in a public county hospital .
I see this as a community issue ( addiction and it's affects on the individual and community and lack of knowledge about it's treatment) that is completely throughout our country, and affects every level of our society. Please , I am asking folks out there, try to develop some empathy and kindness , as it is so obviously needed by everyone that night and all around us everyday now.I am positive that everyone out here would love to experience compassion and understanding as a thread woven between their lives. May it be so now...
Progressive Credibility: I thought No means No and Consent Was an Important Value?
I am "really getting very frustrated with the continued" lengths that members of our community go to defend what to most of us is an undefendable action. ADA Act? Really? Efren is such a victim that you refer to the ADA Act. Wow! Talk about "continued lengths" to stretch credibility!
For years we have been trying to raise awareness that NO MEANS NO, that CONSENT is NECESSARY to have sexual contact. Efren's undisputed actions, from the facts that we know, are sufficient to prove that he does not understand the rights of women in our community not to be terrified by a prowler at their window in their underpants at 3:30 am.
The way I read Peacetree, the sexual intimidation and harassment of women is acceptable to we, the people, AS LONG AS A PERSON is an alcoholic, acknowledges this, and is "undergoing treatment."
You call that compassion.
I call that the same sorry excuse that has justified the harassment, intimidation, molestation, and rape of women for centuries.
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Posted in reply to the post by peacetree:
I am really getting very frustrated with the continued character assassination of someone who has still not had any legal findings regarding this matter. ...
Re: Progressive Credibility: I thought No means No and Consent Was an Important Value?
Your post reminds me of a comment the physicist Wolfgang Pauli once made about a colleague's particularly sloppy thinking: "You're not even wrong."
I've noticed that the "facts" we know from the newspaper have been morphing in your mind. For example, while the Press Democrat said the woman's "window screen had been torn enough to allow someone to reach through the screen and partially open the window," you stated in two previous posts that he removed the screen from her window.
You spin elaborate mind-reading yarns, attributing emotions and motives to the woman who dialed 911, Supervisor Carrillo, his defenders, and his general constituency that you simply do not and cannot know. In the case of this defender, you're so far off the mark, I can only echo Pauli.
Efren's undisputed actions include tearing a screen, knocking on a front door, and being outside in his underwear at 3:30 am. I easily can imagine several scenarios that do not involve any intentional infringement of women's rights. The one I believe most logically fits the facts involves no wrongdoing at all by Supervisor Carrillo.
Let me offer you this warning. If your interpretation of the facts is correct, I may be guilty of an innocent and kind heart. If my interpretation of the facts is correct, you may be guilty of libel.
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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
Efren's undisputed actions, from the facts that we know, are sufficient to prove that he does not understand the rights of women in our community not to be terrified by a prowler at their window in their underpants at 3:30 am.
Prize for Most Extreme Lengths Expressed by Apologists for Efren's Sexual Harassment
Okay, Sandoak, you win the prize for the most extreme lengths I have ever heard anyone go to in apologizing for a man who has sexually harassed and frightened a woman into calling 911. Your words:
"The one I believe most logically fits the facts involves no wrongdoing at all by Supervisor Carrillo."
Imagine that. No wrongdoing! Wow. You have a very active imagination, Sandoak. I invite you to fully express the facts that you believe involves no wrongdoing here to our community. Please...I am curious to hear them?
Your fantasy world of Efren's excuses for the sexual harassment of the victim of his acknowledged actions is matched only by your misconception of the definition of your "warning" that I am guilty of libel.
I do not appreciate your use of the word "warning." It is really unwarranted in the civil exchange that Wacco tries to facilitate. I invite you to consider the tone of your language in this exchange.
That said, I have more than a little knowledge of libel law. I am confidant that nothing I have written about my opinions of Efren's actions, or my interpretations, make me guilty of libel.
In response, here is a public challenge (not a warning; I think it rude to "warn" people) to you, Sandoak: I will give you 100 to 1 odds that I am not found "guilty of libel" for what I have written about Efren, regardless of what we come to know in the future.
If you bet me $100 and I am found guilty of libel, I will have to pay you $10,000. If I am not found guilty of libel and one year passes, you pay me the $100. What do you think?
I also challenge your contention that if my "interpretation of the facts is correct, I may be guilty of an innocent and kind heart."
Uh-uh, Sandoak. If the interpretation of me, and hundreds of your fellow Sonoma County residents is correct, you will be guilty of fabricating excuses and innuendo on behalf of Efren, at the expense of a woman who was the victim of an extreme act of sexual harassment and intimidation.
Re: Efren Carrillo and Progressive Credibility
Thank you, Peacetown J!
Your passionate, participatory activism is a true asset to the west county.
And I am proud to say I know you.
Re: Prize for Most Extreme Lengths Expressed by Apologists for Efren's Sexual Harassment
Jonathan,
It's a tempting bet, but I don't expect anyone will bother to sue you for libel. I do think your distortions of the facts, your innuendos, and your unsubstantiated claims are libelous. I would say the same of several others who have posted rants against Efren Carrillo.
I will not share my thoughts on what probably happened that night in this forum. I share them privately with people I trust.
I have appreciated your work on other issues, and I'm saddened by your abandonment of principles of truth, compassion, and peacefulness in this matter.
Sandy
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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
Okay, Sandoak, you win the prize for the most extreme lengths ...\
If you bet me $100 and I am found guilty of libel, I will have to pay you $10,000. If I am not found guilty of libel and one year passes, you pay me the $100. What do you think?...
Re: Prize for Most Extreme Lengths Expressed by Apologists for Efren's Sexual Harassment
Peacetown J:
You have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. I continue to applaud you for standing up for that which is right and just in this matter and for not neglecting the one person in this entire mess who is most deserving of our thoughts, our sympathies and our prayers: the woman who called 9-1-1 not once, but twice at 3:40 a.m. on July 13, 2013.
I will reiterate once again that I will continue to speak out whenever and wherever I can in support of her - no matter who it may upset or make uncomfortable, and I know others who will do so as well.
Your continuing expression of concern and compassion for her tragic situation is truly admirable and is a
true testament of your progressive credibility.
And for that, Sebastacat is truly thankful.
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Posted in reply to the post by Peacetown Jonathan:
Okay, Sandoak, you win the prize for the most extreme lengths....
Pretending to Speak for the Victim
An ongoing problem is that people completely fail to distinguish what you know from what you don't know.
Among the things you absolutely do not know are the feelings, thoughts, and experiences of the woman who called 911, at the time of the incident and subsequently.
Depending on where her reactions are in the wide range of human possibility, she could find your remarks supportive, offensive, or ridiculous.
Like many women, I feel violated when another person presumes to speak for me. And so may she.
Re: Pretending to Speak for the Victim
I will continue to reiterate my support for the victim.
And I am not pretending to do anything. I have actually spoken out both publicly and privately, and I will continue to do so despite condescending comments to the contrary.
(Amendment to original post: Please read the article in today's Press Democrat regarding Efren Carrillo's visit to the Family Justice Center, and please pay particular attention when you get to the part about the victim. Perhaps after reading this, you will finally start to gain some insight as to just where her feelings are on the "wide range of human possibility."
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Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:
An ongoing problem is that people completely fail to distinguish what you know from what you don't know.
Among the things you absolutely do not know are the feelings, thoughts, and experiences of the woman who called 911, at the time of the incident and subsequently.
Depending on where her reactions are in the wide range of human possibility, she could find your remarks supportive, offensive, or ridiculous.
Like many women, I feel violated when another person presumes to speak for me. And so may she.
Re: Pretending to Speak for the Victim
I still say "whatever to the whatever" it was that brought up the subject of supervisor Carrillo ! I'm Glad the subject came up we can thank him for that because Votes are bought by huge lying money campaigns that are not designed to tell truth.
It is Time for people to STOP prostituting themselves to large companies for the profit and security . the planetary situation is such that if someone is not focusing primarily on environmental issues,they are disregarding our hope for a future where human habitation is a possibility here. I think in a dim way E. understands this(he DID show up) but he is hopelessly mired in big money politics .like "O" and cannot extract his head from the dung heap long enough to make sense of it all. We need to develop a political system,and economy that understands that "Shark swim Growth" will not serve us in the long run,it will in fact(and already is )killing us. Businesses here in Sonoma County still throws fluorescent tubes in their dumpsters,along with all their other toxic waste SURE there's a law against it,we all know mercury is poison right? but there is no one Payed to enforce it ,The truck drivers for the most part are not even aware of the law.the company turns a blind eye and we all pretend its all GREEN,we paint the trucks green,won't that help? Where is Efrain? busy at a GRAPE GROWER PARTY flirting.
And actually hmm what would he need to be in his undies outside for? Perhaps he had already been IN the house,and for some kind of embarrassing reasons folks needed to pretend this story to cover a more intense story? WHATEVER ,Thank goodness we are forced now to pay attention so DEBATE ON So we can wake up public servants.and the constituency.
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Posted in reply to the post by sebastacat:
I will continue to reiterate my support for the victim.
And I am not pretending to do anything. I have actually spoken out both publicly and privately, and I will continue to do so despite condescending comments to the contrary.
Re: Pretending to Speak for the Victim
Absolutely right ! .... a lot of the negative opinions I've seen on this subject are based on "assumption" .... how the woman felt, what motivated Effren to do this, etc. etc. ... these opinions are not based on fact because no one knows all of the facts ... is it fair to contribute to a person's demise because of these personal interpretations?
I've volunteered for Home Hospice for the last ten years ... I'm behind the scenes pricing books for the thrift store .... a few weeks ago my supervisor came to me and asked me to watch a customer on the floor explaining that she was a thief ... knowing what I now know about the role of slander in our communities as a tool of harassment, I asked for proof of this ....
Is this too much too ask? .... have we become so uncaring towards each other that we just blindly accept negative stories without demanding verification ?....
Watch this video ... it exposes the power of well acted slander ... realize that, in our world, manipulation has become an art form, whether it be by government or local perpetrators ... don't fall for it .... please ask for proof before you destroy a person ... isn't that what you would want if the tables were turned and your head was on the chopping block?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMSAwekYxrA
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Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:
An ongoing problem is that people completely fail to distinguish what you know from what you don't know.
Among the things you absolutely do not know are the feelings, thoughts, and experiences of the woman who called 911, at the time of the incident and subsequently.
Depending on where her reactions are in the wide range of human possibility, she could find your remarks supportive, offensive, or ridiculous.
Like many women, I feel violated when another person presumes to speak for me. And so may she.
Re: Pretending to Speak for the Victim
Many of our supervisors prostitute themselves, Supervisor Mike McGuire will vote in your favor when you contribute to his campaign. :hmmm:
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Posted in reply to the post by nicofrog:
I still say "whatever to the whatever" it was that brought up the subject of supervisor Carrillo ! I'm Glad the subject came up we can thank him for that because Votes are bought by huge lying money campaigns that are not designed to tell truth.
It is Time for people to STOP prostituting themselves to large companies for the profit and security ....
Re: Pretending to Speak for the Victim
The victim's lawyer, Rosanne Darling, a former Sonoma County prosecutor spoke for the victim in today's (Sept. 19) PD article "Carrilllo Told To Avoid Crisis Center." According to Darling, the victim "was pretty devastated to hear that" Carrillo had attended a meeting at the center for victims of sexual assault, domestic violence and elder abuse. The victim "was outraged," her lawyer said, according to the PD. When Carrillo attended a meeting there, he "received notice from District Attorney Jill Ravitch that he could not return to the county-owned facility," the PD writes. Interesting that a County supervisor has been banned by the DA to even visit a county-run facility.
Others may not speak for the victim, but they certainly can express their support of her, on the basis of the admittedly incomplete information that we do have.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by sandoak:
An ongoing problem is that people completely fail to distinguish what you know from what you don't know.
Among the things you absolutely do not know are the feelings, thoughts, and experiences of the woman who called 911, at the time of the incident and subsequently.
Depending on where her reactions are in the wide range of human possibility, she could find your remarks supportive, offensive, or ridiculous.
Like many women, I feel violated when another person presumes to speak for me. And so may she.
Re: Pretending to Speak for the Victim
there was more in the article. efren's quotes were particularly revealing. of course when we try to deeply understand anyone's motivation we run the risk of being wrong, and offending. and i think it is worth the risk. there is more to understanding others than taking them at their word, or lack of it.
i don't take sandoak at her word. my first guess is that she is personal friends with efren, and cares about the outcome of his tragic journey. and perhaps there is a bit of internalized oppression, as a receiver of patriarchal injustice, she finds hope in the energy of a man who clearly cares about people. my problem is i just don't see how any aware person could think that efren could continue being supervisor and be effective while attending to his own health.
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Posted in reply to the post by Shepherd:
The victim's lawyer, Rosanne Darling, a former Sonoma County prosecutor spoke for the victim in today's (Sept. 19) PD article "
Carrilllo Told To Avoid Crisis Center." According to Darling, the victim "was pretty devastated to hear that" Carrillo had attended a meeting at the center for victims of sexual assault, domestic violence and elder abuse. The victim "was outraged," her lawyer said, according to the PD. When Carrillo attended a meeting there, he "received notice from District Attorney Jill Ravitch that he could not return to the county-owned facility," the PD writes. Interesting that a County supervisor has been banned by the DA to even visit a county-run facility.
Others may not speak for the victim, but they certainly can express their support of her, on the basis of the admittedly incomplete information that we do have.
