Women's Gifting Circle redux [Archive]

Dixon

08-11-2013, 01:25 AM

Some version of the Women's gifting circle seems to be floating around again these days.
What do you think about it? Is it a pyramid? Is it a scam? Is it a valid way to create wealth, community, inspiration, focus, and other worthy non-financial outcomes?
Did you participate the last time around? How did it work out for you? Are you doing it again?
Barry, I can answer some of those questions, as, you may recall, I researched the so-called Women's "Gifting" Circle several years ago. It was a typical pyramid scheme tarted up with New Agey spiritual jargon, and about 89% of the women who joined lost every penny they invested so the other 11% could profit from their gullibility. In other words, a con game fleecing the suckers.

I had hoped that the thread I started here on Wacco back in 2005 to educate people about pyramid schemes had inoculated our community against such ripoffs, but I guess the local con artistes have decided it's been long enough for people to have forgotten my warnings, so I'll repeat them. Below is my initial post from 2005; it contains everything you need to know to understand that the Women's "Gifting" Circle and similar "games" are just sleazy ripoffs. There is no way to participate in these things without soiling your karma or, more likely, losing your money.

MY ORIGINAL POST FROM 2005:

Sisters and Brothers;

...I have a little knowledge about this issue because, after a couple of people in our community tried to recruit me into 2 different scams, I did some research on it. I now want to share this info before anyone else in our community gets ripped off. This info is neither controversial nor subjective opinion; rather it is incontrovertible mathematical fact. I especially want to reach out to those of you who are tempted to stop reading this either because you’ve profited from one of these scams or hope to in the future. I challenge you to do the right thing: Drop your defensiveness and call upon your Higher Self to open your hearts and minds to this info.

Every few years they return in slightly different forms. In years past, the Bay area was infected by scams with names like “Airplane Game”, “Abundance Workshop”, “Holiday Magic”, “Dare to Be Great”, “Koscot Interplanetary”, “Circle of Gold”, etc. More recently, we had the “Circle of Friends”, the “Women’s Gifting Circle”, and another one that didn’t even have a name, and was usually just called “the activity”. I am especially familiar with these last 3, having studied their promotional materials, and they are all, despite their denials, classic pyramid schemes (yes, sisters, I obtained a copy of the Women’s Gifting Circle materials from a woman friend, and verified beyond a doubt that it too was a swindle).

Briefly, the typical Ponzi, or pyramid, scheme involves buying into the game (usually costing at least a couple thousand dollars nowadays), and then recruiting some number of people (usually 2 recruits per participant) to join on the level below you. Because each level is larger than the previous one (usually twice the size, as each participant recruits 2 more), the “base” grows exponentially larger than the “tip” (the person who began the scam), hence the pyramid metaphor. For you to profit, the game has to grow enough for 3 layers to be built up beneath you, as any money you receive will be the buy-in bucks from new recruits 3 layers below you—in other words, you’ll receive the $$ from the 8 people who were recruited by the 4 people who were recruited by the 2 people who were recruited by you, so your initial investment of, say, $2000 will get you $16,000 (8 people’s buy-in fees) if the pyramid doesn’t collapse before it’s your turn to get paid. So it’s a deferred debt, earlier players receiving $$ from later ones, who hope to profit from those who join even later. Of course, eventually the whole house of cards collapses as new recruits can no longer be found, at which point the last 3 layers of payers, (the ones who haven’t ascended high enough in the pyramid to get paid) lose every penny they invested, with no payoff. Their $$ went to someone 3 levels above them, while there isn’t anybody 3 levels below them to pay them off! And since each level is double the size of the previous one, the last 3 levels (the folks who lost their $$$ so that those above them could profit) comprise the vast majority of all who joined! In all such schemes, around 90% of participants get ripped off so the other 10% can profit, which is very different from the rosy picture that was painted for them when they were recruited!

A key to understanding this is to realize that, unlike multi-level marketing companies such as Amway, wherein a product or service is being sold, bringing in $$ from outside the system so that everyone in the system can profit with no one getting ripped off, a pyramid scheme has a finite amount of $$ (the number of participants times the buy-in amount) so that no one can profit without someone else losing their dough. Example: 100 total participants x $2000 buy-in fee = $200,000, which if divided equally gives each person $2000, exactly what they paid to join. There is no conceivable way that anyone can waltz away from this “game” with a profit unless they took someone else’s share. Thus, whether they know it or not, anyone who has profited from one of these scams has robbed someone (usually 8 someones)! Furthermore, I have racked my brains trying to figure out some ethical way I could participate in such a thing (I certainly need the $$!) and have determined that, for reasons I’ll be happy to explain to anyone, there is no way to profit from one of these “games” without ripping someone off!

One thing that makes all of this confusing is that many, maybe most, of the participants honestly don’t realize that it’s inherently a swindle. I don’t want to judge too harshly those who have made an honest mistake, though I have noticed with disgust how some people close their minds in order to defend themselves from being shown that they are engaged in a swindle. People don’t want to see that they’ve profited from a swindle, so that they can keep the $$ without having to feel the guilt that would appropriately accompany the knowledge that they had ripped off their brothers and sisters.

Also, much of the terminology is purposely deceptive. For instance, calling it “gifting” is just flat-out bullshit. Since when do we need a pyramid structure to give a gift? If you want to give someone a couple of thousand bucks, just give it to them! In a pyramid scheme, you’re sending your $$ to someone 3 levels above you, probably a total stranger, in hopes of getting 8 times as much $$ from those 3 levels below you. What the hell kind of “gifting” is that?

What’s really pathetic about many of these scams is the “spiritual” trappings. Phrases like “The universe is abundant” and “Get out of poverty consciousness and into prosperity consciousness” fool gullible seekers into mistaking a sleazy scam for some kind of personal growth workshop. How many of you want to get some “spiritual enlightenment” by paying some New Age ripoff artiste a couple thousand bucks for a lesson in your own greed and gullibility?

I know that some of you reading this have soiled your karma by profiting from one of these swindles (whether or not you knew at the time that it was a swindle); I even know who some of you are. Now here’s the question that will separate the men from the boys and the women from the girls, morally speaking: What’s more important to you, keeping the $$ or doing the right thing? If you want to do the right thing and clean up your karma, your course of action is obvious: you must return your ill-gotten profits to those you got them from, preferably with interest and an apology. The good news is that you also have every right to contact the person who took your money and demand it back.

Bottom line: if someone tells you to pay a certain amount of money so that you can receive several times that amount in profit by some magical process that doesn’t involve the hard work of selling some product or service, don’t do it! They’ll swear up and down that it’s not a pyramid scheme, that it’s legal, that it’s gifting, etc. ad nauseum—these are all lies designed to separate the gullible from their dough.

Part of the reason I went to the trouble to write this public service announcement is to assuage my own guilt for not reporting the people who tried to recruit me into such scams to the police. I tried to talk them out of participating in the scam, but with the smell of easy $$ caressing their nostrils, they were too rigidly defended to budge. I took the coward’s way out, avoiding the shit-storm of controversy that would ensue if I had done the right thing and called the cops. Next time, I will try to do better, and so should you. If some “friend” tries to recruit you into a scam, give them the benefit of the doubt; assume they honestly don’t know it’s a rip-off. Try to talk them out of it. If you can’t, give them my phone number (707-527-6163) so I can try to educate them. If they still insist on participating in the scam, do the right thing; call the cops and let them handle it. If that seems harsh, understand that our “friends” who persevere in these rotten scams are ripping people off just as surely as if they stuck a gun in someone’s ribs and took their wallet.

Do you think I’m mistaken about this? Call me and straighten me out! Any questions? Call me! Got a friend who’s tempted to join such a scheme? Give them my phone number!

Just trying to follow the Golden Rule;
Dixon
(707)527-6163

Dixon

08-11-2013, 01:37 AM

A couple more things:

After I posted that educational post about pyramid schemes in 2005, I received several private emails from people who had been ripped off or had seen their friends ripped off by the Women's "Gifting" Circle and similar scams in our community. Unfortunately, people are usually too embarrassed to come forward publicly and admit to having been victimized by these things. That's too bad because it'd help inoculate our community against such things. Are any of you reading this willing to post on this thread and recount how you got ripped off by your "friends" spouting "spiritual" slogans?

Also, here's a link to another explanation of pyramid schemes:
https://skepdic.com/pyramid.html

Barry

08-11-2013, 02:52 PM

Are any of you reading this willing to post on this thread and recount how you got ripped off by your "friends" spouting "spiritual" slogans?

I also welcome other points of view. I'm particularly interested in the non-financial aspects, friendships/mentorships that were built or destroyed, skills learned, adventures had, confidence built or dashed.... How has it affected your life in all aspects?

MissElaineE.

08-11-2013, 07:57 PM

I have not participated. I sincerely doubt that there has ever been, or ever will be, a time in my life where I was free to "gift" the amount of $5000. Since that seems to be the amount one must ante up, I suspect I am protected to some extent by the fact that membership in this group is unaffordable to me.

That said, it is my personal opinion that this group is bad juju. Mixing up women's spirituality with monetary stuff like this is not a good idea, this is my opinion of course, but as an example, this particular group seems like it truly just proves the point. I think it takes advantage of women who have not been fortunate to have experienced a true spiritual circle and the hierarchy of the group is dis-empowering. That's not at all what I think women's spirituality should be about. If a friend of mine were to ask me whether to join or not, I would do whatever I could to convince her it's a bad idea!

Here's something I recently read on another site. This was written by a woman who did participate, and then left the group.

As an aside, the website where I read the post (RealitySandwich.com) has many other entries on topics which may be of interest to some Waccobbeans.

https://www.realitysandwich.com/womens_circle_pyramid

Evalena Rose

08-11-2013, 08:52 PM

Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. I know the Women's Gifting Circles sound good and seem like a valid way to make money, and they do make money for the first women who join. However, they do seem like a pyramid and require that women keep bringing in other women so, unless every one keeps buying back in, eventually you run out of people to ask. If everyone needs to bring in two people, and they two people, that seems like a pyramid that eventually doesn't get filled at the bottom.

I have tried it before and got to where I couldn't ask anyone to join as I knew, if they didn't complete their down levels, women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle. Any scheme that requires one person bring in two more, the math in 10-20 levels gets to very large numbers and eventually there aren't enough people to keep it going. For 35 years, I've been around these types of schemes and have seen the first people make a lot, then it go bust and people get hurt. I certainly can't participate anymore knowing that.

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money, so it becomes like a Mastermind group, so it has that value. I think those in it for the non-financial rewards could find it useful in philosophies shared and mutual support for wealth. Most people, though, pin a lot of hopes on making money and only some succeed. I'd say only invest what you can easily afford to lose, if at all.

Blessings to all,
Evalena

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-08-09_18-05-23.png
Some version of the Women's gifting circle seems to be floating around again these days.

What do you think about it? Is it a pyramid? Is it a scam? Is it a valid way to create wealth, community, inspiration, focus, and other worthy non-financial outcomes?

Did you participate the last time around? How did it work out for you? Are you doing it again?

Dixon

08-12-2013, 02:29 AM

Here's something I recently read on another site. This was written by a woman who did participate, and then left the group...
https://www.realitysandwich.com/womens_circle_pyramid

MissElaineE., thanks for sharing this fascinating article. I read the whole thing with interest and would recommend it (and most of the associated comments thread) to everyone. Those of you who are disinclined to read or believe my words (because I'm male, or because I'm a skeptic, or because I'm Dixon Big Smile ) should read this article by a woman who's been through the Women's "Gifting" Circle culture.

It gave me new insight into the psychological and social forces that suck someone into the secretive, cult-like experience, and emphasized the non-financial price women pay for their involvement: disillusionment in and alienation from their "friends" when they realize they've been betrayed, with the attendant unravelling of people's social lives, deeper and deeper levels of self-deception with the muzzling of the internal voice of true honesty and wisdom in the service of greed, as well as the ostracization and slandering of those women who dare to question the cult, etc. (Some local women have privately described some of this to me regarding their involvement with the 2005 Women's "Gifting" Circle.) It's unutterably disgusting to see well-meaning women who are seeking fellowship, enlightenment and prosperity being suckered in with cynical talk about "empowering women", "prosperity consciousness", "Law of Attraction", etc. ad nauseam. Very interesting article indeed!

Dixon

08-12-2013, 03:05 AM

Evalena, I wanna express appreciation to you for sharing your experience, and for your integrity in dropping out of these scams when you realized that they're pyramid schemes.

...women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle.
Just for the sake of clarity, in a "circle" (pyramid) with an each-member-recruit-two structure like the 2005 Women's "Gifting" Circle (and I understand the current version is similar), that doesn't just happen to "several friends"; nearly 9 out of 10 who join lose every penny they invest (and yes, I'm joining you in calling it an investment, not a gift. Anyone who calls a pyramid scheme buy-in fee a "gift" is not being honest). The number who are ripped off in these scams is not readily apparent because nearly all of them are too embarrassed to talk about it (though some have told me about it privately).

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money...
This reminds me of this quote from my long post (#2 in this thread): "How many of you want to get some “spiritual enlightenment” by paying some New Age ripoff artiste a couple thousand bucks for a lesson in your own greed and gullibility?" I'm really curious, Evalena, as to what you mean by "upleveling people's consciousness about money". Could you give an example or two of some learning afforded by participation in these scams that is likely to actually be true and is so wonderful that it's worth thousands of dollars plus the loss of friends, soiling of karma, and other costs of participating in a swindle?

PDines

08-12-2013, 02:29 PM

Thanks Dixon for taking the time to caution people about this structure, in your past post and now. I think your message is so important and well-stated.

A number of years ago, a woman tried to recruit me to a women's circle kind of thing, and I saw right away that it was a pyramid scheme. Once you know the structure of one, it's pretty obvious. I told them that it was, but they argued adamantly that it wasn't. I just shrugged and moved on.

I'm fascinated by what I read, here and elsewhere, that people are seduced, manipulated, and pressured in to these schemes by all sorts of flattery, idealistic and empowering language, etc. That tells me that people have that need, but we need to separate that in our minds from the aspect that's about financial investments and claims.

If someone sincerely wants to provide a circle for women's empowerment, why don't they just do that, charge a fee, and be honest about it? To me, the fundamental lack of integrity in the structure and presentation undermines whatever teaching might be offered. I think that we can only offer a space for true healthy wisdom when we challenge ourselves to walk our talk and live in ways that are truly of service and integrity. Otherwise, we don't really know what that path entails...

franjoy

08-12-2013, 04:59 PM

This is a repeat of something that went around about 15 years ago. You can call it whatever you want, it is a pyramid scheme.

Dixon

03-03-2014, 08:51 PM

Those interested in this topic may wish to read my recent article "Pyramid of Betrayal" here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?103624-The-Gospel-According-to-Dixon-18-Pyramid-of-Betrayal&p=177082#post177082), if you haven't already. Parts of it will be a bit redundant if you're among the few who read my lengthy post earlier in this thread, but the article goes into more depth about psychological and social factors that distort our judgment, etc. Also, post #9 in the comment thread following the article is an urgent call from me for information from those who have been victimized by any of the local pyramid schemes. Please check it out. Thanks!

rossmen

03-05-2014, 01:28 AM

i struggle to understand your motivation here dixon. i know women still involved and appreciative, dropped out and silent, witnessing and empathetic, i understand it as evolving lessons in life, we all pay to learn. there are many scams in play. the criminal injustice system does not fit most lessons...

Those interested in this topic may wish to read my recent article "Pyramid of Betrayal" here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?103624-The-Gospel-According-to-Dixon-18-Pyramid-of-Betrayal&p=177082#post177082), if you haven't already. Parts of it will be a bit redundant if you're among the few who read my lengthy post earlier in this thread, but the article goes into more depth about psychological and social factors that distort our judgment, etc. Also, post #9 in the comment thread following the article is an urgent call from me for information from those who have been victimized by any of the local pyramid schemes. Please check it out. Thanks!

Dixon

03-05-2014, 03:20 AM

i struggle to understand your motivation here dixon.
Rossmen, I hate to see people get victimized, and I feel a social responsibility to try to do something about it. What's hard to understand about that?

i know women still involved and appreciative...
Those would be the ones who have profited from the swindle, or the ones who haven't found out yet that they're about to lose their money.

...dropped out and silent...
Their silence would be due to embarrassment at being suckered, and/or fear of being ostracized or attacked by their "friends" involved in the cultish scam if they speak up, or perhaps they made a bundle and don't want to discuss it for fear of getting busted for their crime.

...witnessing and empathetic...
Witnessing and empathizing is what I've been promoting all along. My efforts to dispel the smokescreens and educate folks about how these things really work is all about witnessing. And my desire to stop these swindles from happening is due to my empathy for the victims. Rossmen, your sanguine attitude toward such ripoffs would seem to reflect a notable lack of empathy for the victims. What part of "swindle" do you not understand?

i understand it as evolving lessons in life, we all pay to learn. there are many scams in play.
So, rossmen, if someone stuck a pistol in your ribs and took your wallet, or crawled through your window and burglarized your place, would you write if off as "evolving lessons in life" and not try to get the crook apprehended, letting him or her continue to victimize others?

...the criminal injustice system does not fit most lessons...
The criminal "justice" system is, as you know, systemically corrupt and oppressive. But it also occasionally protects us from murderers, rapists, and swindlers. The refusal of people to allow themselves to be talked out of swindling their sisters and brothers is what makes a criminal justice system necessary. Sadly, our community, like all communities I guess, is infected with people whose empathy and sense of honor, if they exist at all, are overshadowed by their greed. Basic behavioral theory tells us that if their rapacious behaviors are rewarded, they'll continue and increase. If unrewarded or punished, the behaviors will extinguish. What's your plan for dealing with this very real problem, rossmen? Shrugging your shoulders with an insipid grin on your face and saying "Oh well, it's just evolving lessons in life. We all pay to learn."? You mentioned empathy. Try to grow some.

tomcat

03-05-2014, 06:52 AM

When there is no product, only money changes hands and the first to invest are winners and the last to invest are losers... it's a pyramid scheme.

Multilevel Marketing businesses can also be pyramid schemes. I've heard heartbreaking stories about these also, although most people who lose at these are also too embarrassed to talk about it or will rationalize their loss as just not trying hard enough, or, sure they spent a lot of money, but they really learned a lot!

With most MLM's, you can work your ass off and be lucky to break even. The only way to make any real money is to recruit more people who will recruit more people, etc, etc, and you make a cut of all of their sales, So it's the ones at the top who really make the money.

Just do a search for MLM scams and you will find things like the following.

https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_pyramid.htm

When considering joining an MLM program, beware of these hallmarks of a pyramid scheme:

No genuine product or service. MLM programs involve selling a genuine product or service to people who are not in the program. Exercise caution if there is no underlying product or service being sold to others, or if what is being sold is speculative or appears inappropriately priced.
Promises of high returns in a short time period. Be leery of pitches for exponential returns and "get rich quick" claims. High returns and fast cash in an MLM program may suggest that commissions are being paid out of money from new recruits rather than revenue generated by product sales.
Easy money or passive income. Be wary if you are offered compensation in exchange for little work such as making payments, recruiting others, and placing advertisements.
No demonstrated revenue from retail sales. Ask to see documents, such as financial statements audited by a certified public accountant (CPA), showing that the MLM company generates revenue from selling its products or services to people outside the program.
Buy-in required. The goal of an MLM program is to sell products. Be careful if you are required to pay a buy-in to participate in the program, even if the buy-in is a nominal one-time or recurring fee (e.g., $10 or $10/month).
Complex commission structure. Be concerned unless commissions are based on products or services that you or your recruits sell to people outside the program. If you do not understand how you will be compensated, be cautious.
Emphasis on recruiting. If a program primarily focuses on recruiting others to join the program for a fee, it is likely a pyramid scheme. Be skeptical if you will receive more compensation for recruiting others than for product sales.

joybird

03-05-2014, 08:37 AM

What are these women appreciating? I'd really like to know that.
Do they really understand that this is a pyramid scheme? I didn't appreciate learning that getting my money back was near to impossible.

Joy

i struggle to understand your motivation here dixon. i know women still involved and appreciative, dropped out and silent, witnessing and empathetic, i understand it as evolving lessons in life, we all pay to learn. there are many scams in play. the criminal injustice system does not fit most lessons...

Shandi

03-05-2014, 01:04 PM

There are circles for women's empowerent, but there are sub-catagories of empowerment, and it may be that the lure of sisterly "financial" empowerment trumps spiritual or relationship power. The potential of getting rich quick will have an appeal to most of us. And if our best friend spins stories of other women doing it, we may believe we can too. And, then there are some who are already in the circle who are willing to "front" the money, giving the impression that they're confident about you making the payback, since they've made so much already through the method they're promoting..

I think I've already shared about my experience in Hawaii. The money was fronted for me, but after only a short time I wanted out, after watching a wealthy women burn a hundred dollar bill. I was allowed to leave, with no loss and no gain. This was in 1986. Word spread quickly that it was a scheme.

I was approached several years ago to join a "garden club" in Marin, but it had all the same elements that I was familiar with. I declined.

The sooner women can become aware of ways that they can be easily separated from their money, they'll be protecting themselves from predators who appear as friends.

Thanks Dixon for taking the time to caution people about this structure, in your past post and now. I think your message is so important and well-stated.

A number of years ago, a woman tried to recruit me to a women's circle kind of thing, and I saw right away that it was a pyramid scheme. Once you know the structure of one, it's pretty obvious. I told them that it was, but they argued adamantly that it wasn't. I just shrugged and moved on.

I'm fascinated by what I read, here and elsewhere, that people are seduced, manipulated, and pressured in to these schemes by all sorts of flattery, idealistic and empowering language, etc. That tells me that people have that need, but we need to separate that in our minds from the aspect that's about financial investments and claims.

If someone sincerely wants to provide a circle for women's empowerment, why don't they just do that, charge a fee, and be honest about it? To me, the fundamental lack of integrity in the structure and presentation undermines whatever teaching might be offered. I think that we can only offer a space for true healthy wisdom when we challenge ourselves to walk our talk and live in ways that are truly of service and integrity. Otherwise, we don't really know what that path entails...

meherc

03-05-2014, 07:14 PM

Evalena: I liked yr post but don't quite understand what you mean by the group's value in "upleveling" people's consciousness about money. That they won't get fooled again; they come to see their relationship to money, how much energy they will put into getting it? What non-financial rewards and philosophies would they get since it seems the group revolves around getting money from the get go? I have never gotten involved in one of these groups so my questions are sincere.

Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. I know the Women's Gifting Circles sound good and seem like a valid way to make money, and they do make money for the first women who join. However, they do seem like a pyramid and require that women keep bringing in other women so, unless every one keeps buying back in, eventually you run out of people to ask. If everyone needs to bring in two people, and they two people, that seems like a pyramid that eventually doesn't get filled at the bottom.

I have tried it before and got to where I couldn't ask anyone to join as I knew, if they didn't complete their down levels, women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle. Any scheme that requires one person bring in two more, the math in 10-20 levels gets to very large numbers and eventually there aren't enough people to keep it going. For 35 years, I've been around these types of schemes and have seen the first people make a lot, then it go bust and people get hurt. I certainly can't participate anymore knowing that.

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money, so it becomes like a Mastermind group, so it has that value. I think those in it for the non-financial rewards could find it useful in philosophies shared and mutual support for wealth. Most people, though, pin a lot of hopes on making money and only some succeed. I'd say only invest what you can easily afford to lose, if at all.

Blessings to all,
Evalena

joybird

03-05-2014, 08:52 PM

I went back in this thread and read this article that was previously posted on 8/11/13 by MissElaineE
https://realitysandwich.com/176721/womens_circle_pyramid/
Wow.
I joined one of these pyramid schemes about 25 years ago as I have said already on this thread. Reading this article makes me aware of the level of sophistication that has been added to the rhetoric.
And in a cruel twist makes me sorry that no one has asked me to join this time. Because being asked to join means you are spiritually advanced and ready to be part of the secret circle. And dang if I don't want to be seduced by my own deepness.
(Do I need to put in a wink ?)

What are these women appreciating? I'd really like to know that.
Do they really understand that this is a pyramid scheme? I didn't appreciate learning that getting my money back was near to impossible.

Joy

Svea

03-06-2014, 07:08 PM

And in a cruel twist makes me sorry that no one has asked me to join this time. Because being asked to join means you are spiritually advanced and ready to be part of the secret circle. And dang if I don't want to be seduced by my own deepness.
(Do I need to put in a wink ?)

No Wink Necessary!!

An old friend who recently passed away was seduced into a local, west county "women's gifting circle" about 12-14 years ago. Being an accounting person, I argued and argued with her that this was a joke. She just didn't get it that it was a ponzi scheme. Some people are not able to think in those terms. These are in fact the people who have no business doing accounting work! They are also likely the victims of such ponzi schemes.

Buyer beware!!!!

Svea

Vicky10

03-07-2014, 09:31 PM

Hi Evalena, et al.
I recently joined a circle and did so because in my mind I was comparing it to one of those micro-loans that foundations give women in developing countries... an alternative funding source for women. One of my best friends even warned me that it had ponzi scheme basics but I was focused on the alternative funding part. I didn't really comprehend the pyramid aspect of it. I understood that one might not get back their money... that it was an act of faith. But since I failed every math class I ever took (oh how those math classes dragged down my GPA! :wink:) I didn't really comprehend the numerical unsustainability part. Oh well, live and learn I guess.

Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. I know the Women's Gifting Circles sound good and seem like a valid way to make money, and they do make money for the first women who join. However, they do seem like a pyramid and require that women keep bringing in other women so, unless every one keeps buying back in, eventually you run out of people to ask. If everyone needs to bring in two people, and they two people, that seems like a pyramid that eventually doesn't get filled at the bottom.

I have tried it before and got to where I couldn't ask anyone to join as I knew, if they didn't complete their down levels, women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle. Any scheme that requires one person bring in two more, the math in 10-20 levels gets to very large numbers and eventually there aren't enough people to keep it going. For 35 years, I've been around these types of schemes and have seen the first people make a lot, then it go bust and people get hurt. I certainly can't participate anymore knowing that.

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money, so it becomes like a Mastermind group, so it has that value. I think those in it for the non-financial rewards could find it useful in philosophies shared and mutual support for wealth. Most people, though, pin a lot of hopes on making money and only some succeed. I'd say only invest what you can easily afford to lose, if at all.

Blessings to all,
Evalena

Svea

03-07-2014, 10:20 PM

Shandi

03-08-2014, 06:41 AM

Do you know how much money she lost, or how long it took her to figure it out?

...An old friend who recently passed away was seduced into a local, west county "women's gifting circle" about 12-14 years ago. Being an accounting person, I argued and argued with her that this was a joke. She just didn't get it that it was a ponzi scheme. Some people are not able to think in those terms. ...Buyer beware!!!!

Robyn Rosenwald

03-08-2014, 08:22 AM

I have a friend who belongs to two circles. She has found tremendous value in developing leadership, opening up to a community of women, empowerment, and other priceless gifts such as women supporting each other in fulfilling their goals. She has dedicated a lot of time and effort and energy to this.

She invited me to join and I declined because I saw it for what it was on a financial level... I think for women struggling with the current economic paradigm it is very seductive. We do need alternatives...

I did attend a phone call with a group and it was definitely a very supportive and empowering environment for the women involved on the call.

I don't know if it will ever pay off for her financially. I hope so. She has certainly put on the hours and more.

Vicky10

03-08-2014, 08:52 AM

...I think for women struggling with the current economic paradigm it is very seductive. We do need alternatives...
I did attend a phone call with a group and it was definitely a very supportive and empowering environment for the women involved on the call.
I don't know if it will ever pay off for her financially. I hope so. She has certainly put on the hours and more.
This captures exactly my experience and how I feel.

These circles are most seductive for women struggling in the current sick and unjust economic paradigm and the calls are supportive and empowering, especially for the women struggling the most.

I too hope for my best friend, who invited me, and for all the others, that it will pay off financially as well. I just can't, in good conscience, invite anymore women into this now that I understand the mathematics of it.

In the documents there is a way that one can leave but I feel bad about that too because it means I get repaid by some other poor woman's money. That feels like doing unto someone what I wouldn't want done to me. I know the person who invited me did so with a pure heart just as I did with the woman I invited. I have apologized profusely to my invitee and have directed her to this conversation explaining that I didn't understand. I feel really bad about what I did.

rossmen

03-08-2014, 10:58 AM

seems you misunderstood my question dixon. it was specific to the post i replied too. i appreciate your education efforts and especially the link to the first person account. i am just curious about why you want private accounts and your promise of possible refund. law enforcement efforts i know of are limited too education, and not nearly as thorough and engaging as yours. this is an extremely difficult scam to prosecute or litigate for many reasons. i am very interested in restorative justice and think it might help here. i am most saddened by the social damage done and worried about my friends;..(

Rossmen, I hate to see people get victimized, and I feel a social responsibility to try to do something about it. What's hard to understand about that?...

theindependenteye

03-08-2014, 05:34 PM

I can imagine there's a positive energy in the inclusion of the Money factor in a support group. It's more than the possibility of gain, the good old greed factor that fuels con games historically. It's also a kind of magical focus of intention, like a ritual blood sacrifice or ordeal. Money, for most of us, is our most intimate self: lotsa people would more easily stand stark naked or talk intimately about sexual experience than reveal their bank accounts to friends. So an investment of money in a "gifting circle" partakes of that ritual power. Plus, as has been said, lotsa people need money.

Why not a support group requiring the same investment for purposes of micro-financing? Or even to invest group funds in buying lottery tickets or playing the stock market or the horses? It's the inclusion of the classic Ponzi structure that screws up the works. Creating & evolving a support group that encompassed true financial support would be tremendously difficult, because it pulls against all our learned instincts (whereas the Ponzi model feels so lubricated), but it would be a true test and contribution to our capacity for building community.

Cheers—
Conrad
www.DamnedFool.com

Dixon

03-12-2014, 06:59 AM

I did attend a phone call with a group and it was definitely a very supportive and empowering environment for the women involved on the call.
I don't know if it will ever pay off for her financially. I hope so. She has certainly put on the hours and more.
Robyn, I have calculated the numbers for a pyramid scheme of this particular type (each one recruit two others and receive the buy-in fees from those 3 levels below). About 89% of the women who participate will lose their investment so the 11% who got in earlier can profit from their gullibility. I assume you have enough empathy for those who get ripped off to agree with me that even if your friend profits, the pyramid can't be said to have a good outcome. One wonders how "supported and empowered" the majority of the participants ultimately feel when they realize their money is gone. Let's be very clear: the net result of scams like the Women's "Wisdom" Circle is not support or empowerment of the community of women; it's betrayal, disillusionment, and corruption of the community.

Dixon

03-12-2014, 07:11 AM

In the documents there is a way that one can leave but I feel bad about that too because it means I get repaid by some other poor woman's money. That feels like doing unto someone what I wouldn't want done to me. I know the person who invited me did so with a pure heart just as I did with the woman I invited. I have apologized profusely to my invitee and have directed her to this conversation explaining that I didn't understand. I feel really bad about what I did.
Hi, Vicky--
I want to express my appreciation for your integrity in leaving the circle when you understood what it really was, and in sharing your experience publicly here. Unfortunately, a lot of folks are too embarrassed to share their similar experiences publicly, so these schemes continue to infect our community periodically for lack of education/consciousness on the subject.

If there's anyone else you know who needs education about this sort of thing, you may wish to direct them to my recent article on the subject, which explains the mathematical realities very clearly, and also goes into some of the psychological/social aspects. It can be found here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?103624-The-Gospel-According-to-Dixon-18-Pyramid-of-Betrayal&p=177088#post177088).

Dixon

03-12-2014, 07:22 AM

Rossmen, thanks for your clarification. To answer your question: I was hoping to get specific info from actual victims of these scams to provide to the appropriate authorities so that some of the swindlers could actually be prosecuted. Sadly but truly, that seems to be the only way to stop those who are unconstrained by conscience or empathy from victimizing others. However, while some are willing to complain about having been ripped off, no one seems willing to do what's necessary to stop it from happening to the next bunch of victims. Their empathy and social consciousness are tiny compared to their self-pity. At this point, after putting lots of energy into trying to protect the community from this sort of violation, I'm trying not to cry too much over the vicitimization of a community that has no commitment to doing what they can to stop it. I guess the community will get the justice it deserves--none at all. Sad though.

rossmen

03-12-2014, 11:30 PM

justice has many forms. pyramid schemes leave a long trail of victims and i don't think the originators make all that much. my guess is that most who get a payoff "reinvest". there seems to be a lot of sponsoring in this latest manifestation. so the money loss might be less cruel than simple calculation suggests.

i admire your educational efforts and holding that objective rational thought is the best way to understand and make decisions in the world, especially around money. the women excited about being invited, feeling the support, and inviting others, its easy to judge them as greedy, or naive. but i don't know them like this. and if they have stepped away, holding those they know are still involved with the care of confidentiality, perhaps that is their way of healing the biggest cost i see here, social damage.

maybe the women's wisdom circle name is true for participants in an unexpected way. you can call me unemphatic or mean for imagining there might be something positive in this. i certainly don't mean to defend it. maybe i am smug because i have never fallen for such a simple scam. maybe its just my way of coping with another sad thing we humans do to each other;.(

Rossmen, thanks for your clarification. To answer your question: I was hoping to get specific info from actual victims of these scams to provide to the appropriate authorities so that some of the swindlers could actually be prosecuted. Sadly but truly, that seems to be the only way to stop those who are unconstrained by conscience or empathy from victimizing others. However, while some are willing to complain about having been ripped off, no one seems willing to do what's necessary to stop it from happening to the next bunch of victims. Their empathy and social consciousness are tiny compared to their self-pity. At this point, after putting lots of energy into trying to protect the community from this sort of violation, I'm trying not to cry too much over the vicitimization of a community that has no commitment to doing what they can to stop it. I guess the community will get the justice it deserves--none at all. Sad though.

Dixon

03-14-2014, 12:44 AM

...its easy to judge them as greedy, or naive.
Most of those who've contacted me privately about having been ripped off by these things have described themselves as naive, sometimes even using that word. How would it not be naive to engage in a scam that's about 89% likely to take your money? And regarding those who knowingly rip off their sisters or brothers, or engage in Herculean feats of denial/evasion/irrationality so they can bullshit themselves that it's not a scam--surely it's fair to call them greedy, no?

...holding those they know are still involved with the care of confidentiality, perhaps that is their way of healing the biggest cost i see here, social damage.
I don't see how refusing to hold people accountable for ripping off their sisters and brothers promotes healing. It simply guarantees that, in a few years after the current ferment dies down, they'll do it again because they profited with no consequences this time. What's to stop them? Certainly not anything so quaint as empathy or honor; they're not encumbered by such constraints. Do you think we should refrain from going after burglars, muggers and rapists too? Do you really see that much difference between a pyramid scheme ripoff and, e.g., a burglary?

rossmen

03-14-2014, 08:43 PM

i do, and so do many of the victims and law enforcement. look at your own experience at trying to gather evidence for prosecution. if you were a witness to violence or a property crime a report would be taken and you might be called in to testify. i agree there is a good chance that some kind of womens gifting pyramid scam might move through the area in 10-15 years. i remember the last time and knew participants then too. this time the message seems more sophisticated/misleading. the more written, the better chance more invitees decline and warn others.

Most of those who've contacted me privately about having been ripped off by these things have described themselves as naive, sometimes even using that word. How would it not be naive to engage in a scam that's about 89% likely to take your money? And regarding those who knowingly rip off their sisters or brothers, or engage in Herculean feats of denial/evasion/irrationality so they can bullshit themselves that it's not a scam--surely it's fair to call them greedy, no?

I don't see how refusing to hold people accountable for ripping off their sisters and brothers promotes healing. It simply guarantees that, in a few years after the current ferment dies down, they'll do it again because they profited with no consequences this time. What's to stop them? Certainly not anything so quaint as empathy or honor; they're not encumbered by such constraints. Do you think we should refrain from going after burglars, muggers and rapists too? Do you really see that much difference between a pyramid scheme ripoff and, e.g., a burglary?

Dixon

03-14-2014, 10:19 PM

I do, and so do many of the victims and law enforcement. look at your own experience at trying to gather evidence for prosecution. if you were a witness to violence or a property crime a report would be taken and you might be called in to testify.
Nobody bats an eye if we incarcerate some young black, brown or poor white guy(s) for burglarizing a home and getting, say, a few hundred bucks worth of stuff. Fine--they did the crime; let them do the time. But when some middle-aged white woman in "goddess" clothing, smelling of incense and with a permanently painted-on blissed-out smile bilks 8 of her sisters out of $5,000 each, somehow it doesn't seem appropriate to jail her. After all, the unspoken social contract is that jail is for young black, brown or poor white males, not "spiritual" middle/upper-middle class white women. Somehow it doesn't feel "right" to incarcerate them--even if they ripped off more people for more money than did the guys who populate our jails. Let me take this opportunity to challenge everyone who reads this to have an honest encounter with your unconscious inner racist/sexist/classist.

i agree there is a good chance that some kind of womens gifting pyramid scam might move through the area in 10-15 years.
It only took about 8 years this last time--and that's only the ones I've heard about. In any case, if no one gets any consequences for profiting from a swindle this time, you can be sure it'll happen again. When it does, it won't be because I didn't try my best to stop it. Can you say the same?

PDines

03-14-2014, 10:38 PM

Thanks for the conversation here. I'd like to add what might be a useful distinction: Just because AFTER the fact, a person might cope by shrugging and saying "I learned lesson X" doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about justice for them AND stopping the next person from being harmed. There's a difference between personal coping and having a fair system of justice and accountability.

Also, one of the things I often hear people say after being ripped off is that they thought they were too smart to have it happen to them. That's why to me we can't rely on that. The charm and claims are designed to seduce. So to me the best antidote is to actually understand how cons work, so that we can see them underneath the smoke and mirrors.

Also, in terms of the claims of personal empowerment, women's power, etc. -- I've said before but I think it bears repeating - if that's the goal, then charge a fee up front for that benefit, so that can be the focus. But to me that outcome is undermined at its foundation when charm covers deceptive and mathematically impossible claims -- which then lead to so much focus on attracting new victims, rather than doing the real work of personal growth. To me, that makes the offering rotten at the core. What lessons can they teach when the foundation lacks integrity?

To me, the way to empower people in this case is to help them see when they're being conned -- so they can walk the other direction -- or, even better, report them to the cops. When we know we can take care of our own well-being -- now that's empowerment!

justice has many forms. pyramid schemes leave a long trail of victims and i don't think the originators make all that much. my guess is that most who get a payoff "reinvest". there seems to be a lot of sponsoring in this latest manifestation. so the money loss might be less cruel than simple calculation suggests.

i admire your educational efforts and holding that objective rational thought is the best way to understand and make decisions in the world, especially around money. the women excited about being invited, feeling the support, and inviting others, its easy to judge them as greedy, or naive. but i don't know them like this. and if they have stepped away, holding those they know are still involved with the care of confidentiality, perhaps that is their way of healing the biggest cost i see here, social damage.

maybe the women's wisdom circle name is true for participants in an unexpected way. you can call me unemphatic or mean for imagining there might be something positive in this. i certainly don't mean to defend it. maybe i am smug because i have never fallen for such a simple scam. maybe its just my way of coping with another sad thing we humans do to each other;.(

kpage9

03-14-2014, 11:11 PM

ditto the thanks!!!!

i keep wondering...who's reading this excellent exchange and cringeing (cringing?), feeling kind of nailed, kind of ashamed, but maybe holding out hope that she can make it work for herself and her friends. or maybe just feeling offended and defensive, thinking that if she spoke up for HER reality, she would be derided, scorned, ostracized.

There's a conspicuous silence coming from the direction of those still practicing. Logically enough.

i also wonder what the conversation is within those circles... whether the scorn from the "outside" makes them pull together stronger, us against them.

I really wish there were a way to make it safe for those involved to speak up and help us know their perspective but I think there is not.

One last question: do you think it's just a cynical, greedy thing painted over with pretty hopes (um...lipstick on a pig...in goddess garb)? or--given that apparently much of the gains are put back in to sponsor others, could there be some part that IS genuinely giving?

kathy

Thanks for the conversation here. I'd like to add ...

PDines

03-14-2014, 11:30 PM

Kathy - Thanks for your comments. Question - you say that "much of the gains are put back in to sponsor others". Is that really that common? I just can't believe that it would be. And when you say sponsor, do you mean a GIFT or a LOAN? I've only heard of this rarely, and as a LOAN that the person is expected to pay back. If it's a GIFT, do they still get money from the levels below them? If not, then it's an odd hybrid. The likelihood is that there still will be incentives of some kind for that recipient to use their time and connections to bring more people into the group, as that is a primary activity for everyone who wants their money back. The new people who come in will expect to be paid based on the claims and mathematically can't be. That's what makes it a pyramid scheme. Therefore, even if someone is sponsored in, to me they're still part of a con, just being staked to participate and use their skills to bring more people in. I just can't see it as generosity. If you give someone the tools to be a bank robber on your bank robbing team -- they're still a bank robber.

ditto the thanks!!!!...

Shandi

03-15-2014, 08:51 AM

There are so many ways to give/gift. I'd much rather give to some woman who's struggling to make ends meet, with no way of "gifting" $5,000. to a woman in a circle, let alone being able to feed/cloth herself and children. Those women would be joyful to receive anything, whether in the form of money, goods, services, education, or an emotional boost through genuine caring concern shown by listening.

Last year I saw a woman with a young child, begging at a shopping center. I was in my car, and only had 50 cents on me, and not much more at home. I drove home, and got my $10 savings, and brought it back, along with a notebook and pen. I interviewed this woman to find out how she got in this position. Although I personally didn't have much money to share, I did agree to do weekly laundry for this family of 4, and carry food/water in my car for them. I helped them with transportation, and finding a place to sleep at night. They had once owned a home and lived in Sebastopol, when the father lost his construction job, and was unable to find more work. They lost their home, and their car due to unpaid registration. I continued to see them for about 6 months before they disappeared from the area.

There's no shortage of ways for women (or men) to give to those in need.

ditto the thanks!!!!....

Shandi

03-15-2014, 09:10 AM

I did a search trying to find a "gifting circle" to join, but realize these aren't posted, but spread through secret phone conversations or in person. I did find several references to the circles being scams, but what was of particular interest was an article from the Big Island Weekly, where I lived when I was involved in the circle in the 80's.

<article class="hentry">12:06 am - September 04, 2013 Big Island Weekly

<header class="entry-header">The Gift that Keeps on Taking
Le’a Gleason</header>

Author’s Note: The names of the women interviewed have been changed to protect their anonymity.
In recent months, an underground business called ‘Women’s Gifting Circles’ has made its way across East Hawaii, dividing people who disagree on the touchy subject of this investment model. To some it’s a ‘pyramid scheme,’ while others see it as a smart investment in a good cause.

According to a statement from the Federal Trade Committee (FTC) in 1998, “Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public.”

The statement elaborates that pyramid schemes are punishable by state and federal law in a variety of ways.

“The U.S. Department of Justice, in collaboration with investigative agencies like the FBI, prosecutes pyramid schemes criminally…At the Commission, we bring cases against pyramid schemes under the FTC Act, which broadly prohibits ‘unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce’,” it says.
‘Gifting circles’ are not a new concept, and in fact were rumored to be happening in Hawaii in the late eighties and nineties.
While some are co-ed, the women’s versions are marketed as a way to empower women financially through a tiered investment model, described with the analogy of dinner courses. At the bottom are eight ‘appetizers,’ who each donate $1,400. Above them are four ‘soup and salads’ and two ‘entrees.’ The woman at the very top is the ‘dessert,’ who collects $11,000. Then, the circle splits in two and each ‘entrée’ becomes the top of her own circle. In order for each woman to move up a level, the group must find eight more women. For one of the original eight women to become a ‘dessert,’ only 24 new women must be recruited. However, for every one of the original eight women to reach the top, a total of 192 women must be recruited. And for every one of the eight women from each new circle to receive their ‘gift,’ numbers quickly shoot into the thousands.

Methods of recruitment and the unlikely return of the original investment have some women in the community concerned. In addition, women who are members are told not to speak publicly about their involvement. Circles have secret phone meetings where they discuss what they’ll do with the money, and exchange email called ‘hush mail.’

Karen Souza became concerned when several women recruited her aggressively. She was first contacted about six months ago by a friend on the Mainland, and then was approached two separate times on-island.
“This old friend of mine who I haven’t spoken with in years… ended up calling and said ‘I have something really exciting I wanna tell you but you have to promise you won’t tell anyone’. It could’ve been anything but there was something that raised a red flag immediately,” Souza said.
She explained that the woman was “pushing to keep her on the phone,” and to arrange a time when they could talk further.

From another woman, she received an email including a document detailing how the circle would work. In Souza’s case, it was called a “Wisdom Circle” and each woman was asked to donate $5,000, totaling $40,000 for the woman at the top. The document explained that the women need-not pay taxes, as the IRS allows up to a $12,000 gift.

It read, “Our intention is to benefit women, PERIOD. We have discovered a way …to help women begin manifesting a solid financial foundation for their families and their projects. We have joined together in a sisterhood that is truly sacred community. Those who can accept that the true energy of intention is everything, will understand the energetic foundation of the Women’s Wisdom Circle.”

It continued, “Limited by language, it is hard to convey the full nature of The Women’s Wisdom Circle; however, please know that by inviting you, we are asking you to receive support. Go within to a quiet centered place, use your intuition and make your decision.” To Souza, the email was very upsetting.

“This language is targeting women who are trying to live a spiritual life. Anybody who’s not 100 percent confident in themselves is going to be susceptible. I’m struggling and all these women I know are basically living close to poverty and the chance to have a chunk of money to better themselves, that’s basically irresistible. Who’s responsible for this? I would love to see that person go to jail,” Souza said.
Similar recruiting situations were true for Jennifer Willis, Kathleen Okuza, and Kanani Tavares. Each woman claims to have been “pushed” towards joining the circle.

“I know a handful of smart women who have unfortunately put money towards this ‘circle.’ It is hard to say no when your good friends are asking you to join, whom you believe to be smart and kind-hearted people,” Willis said. Willis named one woman involved at an upper-level as a “well known” member of the empowered, strong, hippie, female community. “Allegedly she has made over $50,000 and has ‘rejoined’ the circle three times,” she said. The same woman was mentioned by three other sources as someone who pushed them to join.

In Okuza’s case, it seemed enticing so she agreed.

“When I wanted to figure out my finances for the ‘gift,’ they got very pushy. The leader sent me a couple text-messages with exclamation points. As time went by and I wasn’t ‘gifting’ it was like ‘when are you going to give the gift? Get back to me now. I’m going to check in with you. When can I?’ And then I said ‘you’re harassing me for money and I don’t appreciate it’,” Okuza said. Tavares was also approached several times.

“It’s so insidious how they do this in Puna. I think it’s really cruel that they’re using that language to try to entice women. I get that. The idea of helping my sisters out is appealing to me,” she said, adding that the financial effects are “devastating.” “I think that’s possibly one of the most upsetting aspects of this whole gifting circle. This is the Big Island. Nobody’s particularly loaded, especially in our age group. I would have such a hard time accepting money from women knowing it was screwing them over in the process. It’s crazy, it’s illegal and it’s predatory,” Tavares said.

But member Lisa Janneson feels that membership is voluntary and the risks are made clear. Janneson was “sponsored” into the circle, meaning that a friend paid for her. If Janneson makes it to the top, her friend gets half of the $11,000.
“It was your decision to get involved in the first place. You never know what’s gonna happen, even when you give your money to a legitimate accountant they might take your money and launder it. You’re investing it in a woman. That woman is going to take that money and use it to better her life. It’s an investment in somebody else,” Janneson said. She explained that her circle is mainly comprised of people she knows, and she was invited by someone she can trust.

“I definitely haven’t had any negative experience. I think there’s an issue in our culture about people being able to trust. The whole idea behind the women’s circle…it’s like the amount of faith you can manifest for it is how it works. I think that’s really scary for some people, being able to have that faith,” Janneson said.

Neither the Pahoa or Hamakua Police departments have records of specific police reports regarding the circles, nor do police chiefs say they have any knowledge of what’s going on. According to media relations, were reports filed, they would be theft reports which would get lost amongst many other reports. The Hilo Police Chief was unable to be reached for comment. Also unavailable for comment was County Prosecutor Mitch Roth. Upon contacting his office, a representative said that Roth “no longer handles community prosecuting.”

</article>
ditto the thanks!!!!...

kpage9

03-15-2014, 11:10 AM

Thanks to Shandi for the article and this note. Of COURSE there are other, better, more honest and direct ways of giving, and Shandi deserves a position in the Good Person Hall of Fame for her actions. And there is no question that this is a pyramid scheme. My interest really is in what happens to the women in this circle...how does it affect their sense of connectedness to the larger community, and to their own inner compass. In what it feels like from inside them.

I think the challenge here is to hold both the sense of right and wrong, and compassion and even maybe respect for the person

kathy.

There are so many ways to give/gift. I'd much rathe...

PDines

03-15-2014, 12:46 PM

Hi Kathy - I want to better understand your point. Are you saying that we shouldn't judge the people who get hooked into this? At what point does someone become responsible for their choices?

I think it's great and important to understand the experiences of people in these groups. I'm a huge fan of compassion, and I understand that people can get brought into a game and not really understand it. But I feel the risk of it being too mushy around right and wrong here. I see people using language that removes responsibility for choices, and making the perpetrators the victims.

To me, real harm is being done and it only stops when accountability starts. To me there are things that are just wrong, and taking money under false pretenses surely has to be on that list. To me, it isn't about blame but responsibility. The law has distinctions to try to capture level of innocence vs. intent, so I think that's fair.

But what if a person refuses to hear warnings, to think out the math themselves? What if they keep insisting that it's about empowerment when it's about recruitment? I think it's important that we be compassionate but also street smart, and be willing to see when someone is stubbornly using wonderful spiritual language to coldly rip people off. If they say pretty words but don't care about the harm they do - and blame the victims for being harmed - then is it really a spiritual path of integrity? For me integrity requires people to step up to responsibility, not try to avoid it -- even when the harm they did was inadvertent. People of integrity might say " I didn't understand, I didn't know -- and now I want to make it right" -- and be willing to make sacrifices to do it. They don't just rest on innocence to excuse the harm.

The harm of these schemes is so well-known. It's about promises/claims vs. reality, and being responsible about that. And it's not just about this particular scheme to me, but also the general principle of people being in integrity with what they claim vs. offer, and being responsible for the outcomes. I often see people offering spiritual words and loving claims while working their own scheme, doing harm, and not holding themselves accountable. As if the pretty words were all that mattered. So I would like to see us raise our spiritual intentions to include responsibility and integrity. To me, that provides a container that really does raise our spiritual vibrations, in ways that recklessness never can.

Thanks to Shandi for the article and this note. Of COURSE there are other, better, more honest and direct ways of giving, and Shandi deserves a position in the Good Person Hall of Fame for her actions. And there is no question that this is a pyramid scheme. My interest really is in what happens to the women in this circle...how does it affect their sense of connectedness to the larger community, and to their own inner compass. In what it feels like from inside them.

I think the challenge here is to hold both the sense of right and wrong, and compassion and even maybe respect for the person

kathy.

kpage9

03-15-2014, 01:13 PM

Dear P,

I'm saying that it's a huge challenge, for me at least, to hold--like i said--a a fully informed sense of right and wrong (read: judgment) AND compassion/respect/curiosity, all at the same time. And i would love it if others felt the same challenge ...i'd take some comfort in our shared struggle to reach a difficult balance.

There is a complex and somewhat paradoxical issue of boundaries here as well: to me, unless there are lies being told or the recruit is intellectually or otherwise impaired, the women who sign on are making their own decisions freely and it is not my job to stop them. To think it IS my job shades into self-righteous meddling.

But what if a person refuses to hear warnings, to think out the math themselves? you ask. In what universe, honestly, is it our obligation or right to manage other people's choices?

Please don't think I'm against holding up a huge neon sign that THIS IS A RIP-OFF.

Going farther than that? Honestly what would you propose?

But my personal interest--just because i am an incurable snoop about people's inner workings--lies in the phenomenology of this thing. The perceptions, emotions, thoughts and changes of the women involved.

kathy

Hi Kathy - I want to better understand your point.....

Dixon

03-15-2014, 02:06 PM

...unless there are lies being told...the women who sign on are making their own decisions freely and it is not my job to stop them.
Kathy, there are lies being told. Pyramid schemes could never get enough recruits to function at all without misleading recruits about the likelihood of their profiting. They are not just idealistic ventures that don't happen to turn out well for a few of the investors; they are swindles based on lies. Or do you imagine that when new suckers are recruited they are being told that they have at least an 89% chance of losing their investment?

In what universe, honestly, is it our obligation or right to manage other people's choices?
In this universe it is our obligation as a society, or even just as people who care about others, to manage people's choices when those choices involve victimizing others. Such management of choices ranges from education (as I've been trying to do) to enforcing penalties to deter such rapacious behavior.

PDines

03-15-2014, 02:22 PM

Hi Kathy - Thanks very much for sharing more of your thoughts.

To me this isn't about protecting a woman who makes a truly informed choice based on factual information that only impacts her well- being. But that's not what's happening here. If you want to understand nuances, I really encourage you to understand how a pyramid scheme works - both in functionality, and how people get conned into it. And I encourage you to understand that people are being persuaded to enter a game where they will then be conning other people into the game. This doesn't just effect the first person, but a chain of people into the community.

There's lots of emotional/psychological packaging -- including peer pressure and leveraging off relationships and other people's credibility -- and manipulating people based on their underlying needs. That might be interesting to study til the cows come home.

However, underneath is a very powerful lie. It's in the math. And it is NOT disclosed up front. That's the point. People are told that they will give money but get back lots more. Whatever intangibles they're offered, whatever packaging, that's the core promise. They are NOT told that the statistical odds are that they won't get these promised riches - and that getting any money depends on them recruiting lots of other people with that promise who will not get the promised riches -- including friends, people who are giving their last dime, etc. Even if they get money, the people they recruit down the line WILL NOT. If you do the math, it gets exponential VERY FAST. It's literally impossible for very many levels to get their money back.

To me, that should be not OK. And frankly I think it's heartless to say "Tough luck" and not warn people that they're being conned. That to me is an example of this culture's hyper-individualism, which doesn't even see the value of community or relationship at all, just money and how much we can accumulate, impacts be darned.

I also want to note that warning others can come in many forms. It doesn't have to be personal. It can be just what this thread is -- helping people see the pattern. To me the best way to empower people is to educate them on the underlying lie.

Let me ask you another question -- if there was a company that had a track record of selling people products and not delivering them -- had done it for years, jumping from state to state ahead of the law -- but the evidence was solid - and your friend was about to give them money -- would you really not raise a word of warning? Don't you see that as service? Wouldn't it be non-compassionate to your friend to bring it up?

As I said - I think there's a difference between judgment/blame and responsibility/accountability. I understand not wanting to be "too judgmental," which we associate with arrogant, not compassionate, etc. But I think that can go too far to the other extreme, where we lose accountability and let liars and thieves and con men get off scott free. Believe me, they LOVE suckers who think only about compassion and never hold them accountable for their scams. They seek such people out! And I think it's frankly heartless not to care about warning people when there are scams afoot.

I think that people of good heart need to be smart and watch out for each other -- just as on a hike, we might say, "Watch out, there's a tricky area on the path there." Would you just let a fellow hiker fall, because it was their choice to put their foot there? None of us know everything, see everything. It's worse when there are liars and manipulators at play. Let's all watch out for the dangers so we can make the space safer for everyone.

To me, what's key here is holding both compassion and responsibility together. This to me is not about being judgmental or blaming -- but helping people see the full picture that is not in the pitch. And it's about seeing that emotionally healthy people and communities don't try to avoid blame but step up to be responsible. If they don't, then to hold them accountable isn't making them a victim. It's about stopping them from hurting others. And maybe even encouraging them to be their better selves. To draw a line that says, "In our community, we don't rip each other off. That's not ok with us."

I don't think letting con men run wild without anyone bringing it up would create a safe and loving society. I think it would create a fearful closed society, where people either join the con game or hide in their homes.

Instead, I encourage people of good heart to care about helping to create a safe society, by helping watch out for each other, so that we can focus our attention on giving our unique gifts, not staving off charming lying predators.

I'm saying that it's a huge challenge, for me at least, ...

kpage9

03-15-2014, 02:39 PM

P: it ISN'T ok. I KNOW ABOUT PYRAMID SCHEMES. I am recommending telling others about the tricky patch up ahead. A company's taking money for goods and not delivering them is remediable by law. Not a ONE of us is recommending withholding information about this danger.

All the above is to say: I have my perspective, knowledge and intention--pretty clearly stated in my posts. I'm not sure you're recognizing all--or any--of that. in fact i am feeling a bit condescended-to. Probably a little like what a woman who--however misguidedly we think--decides to join one of these circles might feel. This will never open her mind to your perspective.

k

PDines

03-15-2014, 02:57 PM

Kathy - I'm uncomfortable with your comment and find it inconsistent with the facts or a constructive approach. For myself, I know that I was overtly curious to understand your viewpoint, and invited you to say more. Then I sought to speak with clear responsible I statements about my perspective and values. I also think that if you go back and look at your comments, you can see for instance that you said that unless someone lies, this is a woman's choice and we shouldn't tell her what to do. That to me reflects that you factually don't understand the underlying structure of a ponzi scheme. They are always based on a lie - or they're something else.

So I think it's clear that I shared this added information in the spirit of helpfulness. I invite you to receive it that way, and not project your negative story onto others in this group. To instead simply be open that there might be more for you to understand here. I'm also concerned that your approach can be used to keep these games going, even if you don't see the connection. I think that compassion for the victims should be a high priority in all of this.

In any case, I hope that my comments have been of use to the folks who are curious to know more. And I'm outa here.

P: it ISN'T ok. I KNOW ABOUT PYRAMID SCHEMES. I am recommending telling others about the tricky patch up ahead. A company's taking money for goods and not delivering them is remediable by law. Not a ONE of us is recommending withholding information about this danger.

All the above is to say: I have my perspective, knowledge and intention--pretty clearly stated in my posts. I'm not sure you're recognizing all--or any--of that. in fact i am feeling a bit condescended-to. Probably a little like what a woman who--however misguidedly we think--decides to join one of these circles might feel. This will never open her mind to your perspective.

k

Dixon

03-15-2014, 02:58 PM

Kathy, I want to publicly acknowledge that you've made it clear in previous posts that you're agreeing that people should be warned about pyramid schemes and that we should publicly stand against them. If Patricia (whose basic message I strongly support) implied otherwise, she was misrepresenting your expressed position. And I agree with you about holding empathy for all and responsibility/justice in our heads/hearts at the same time (a difficult task!). The only quibble I have with you at this point is that I think you still tend to downplay the scam as an investment with a "tricky patch up ahead", rather than the out-and-out swindle it actually is, and I don't get the impression that you support holding the perpetrators legally liable for their crimes.

P: it ISN'T ok. I KNOW ABOUT PYRAMID SCHEMES. I am recommending telling others about the tricky patch up ahead. ....

kpage9

03-15-2014, 03:29 PM

ah. ok. yes i definitely support holding the originators accountable, morally in the court of public opinion; legally if there is a law being broken. the "tricky patch" reference was a quote from patricia--i definitely see it as insidious, more like quicksand.

I am still curious to know what patricia would have us do, specificially, in the effort to hold the originators accountable.

Also--i DO see the victim/perpetrator line as nonexistent here, at least after the first roll-out.

Kathy, I want to publicly acknowledge that you've made it clear in previous posts that you're agreeing that people should be warned about pyramid schemes and that we should publicly stand against them. If Patricia...

Robyn Rosenwald

03-15-2014, 03:48 PM

It seems to me that perhaps this conversation needs a lot more input from women who are in these gifting circles.

PDines

03-15-2014, 04:15 PM

Absolutely! Dixon has made that request, and their viewpoints are welcome. I speak as someone who they tried to recruit and I declined, so I can observe the dynamics from that viewpoint.

It seems to me that perhaps this conversation needs a lot more input from women who are in these gifting circles.

PDines

03-15-2014, 04:18 PM

Hi - Can you say more about what you mean by the line being nonexistent, at least after the first roll-out? Do you mean that all participants are both victims and perpetrators? By first rollout, what do you mean? The people who initiate the scheme? Just want to see what you're seeing there.

Also--i DO see the victim/perpetrator line as nonexistent here, at least after the first roll-out.

PDines

03-15-2014, 04:23 PM

Hey Dixon - I was thinking that it'd be nice to have a stat that reflects the asymmetrical odds with a pyramid scheme. 89% is interesting, but it makes it sound like everyone has those odds -- one in ten. But I think the actual odds would start high with the originators and go down progressively with each level to become zero at a certain level. It'd be great to capture that mathematically somehow. I think it'd show why it's scam and not just a long-shot investment. Just an idea, if you've run into something like that, or saw a way to convey it.

Barry, I can answer some of those questions, as, you may recall, I researched the so-called Women's "Gifting" Circle several years ago. It was a typical pyramid scheme tarted up with New Agey spiritual jargon, and about 89% of the women who joined lost every penny they invested so the other 11% could profit from their gullibility. In other words, a con game fleecing the suckers.

Ted Pole

03-15-2014, 04:52 PM

In reading this thread, I am struck with a couple of thoughts. First, it seems like otherwise smart women who would never respond to a $5 chain letter, are perfectly willing to send thousands of dollars to a total stranger in the same scam tarted up with the language of sisterhood and empowerment. Second, there is an old axiom for grifters that everyone involved in the grift, perp and victim, is essentially greedy. "You're telling me I'm gonna get $11,000 if I just give you $1,000?" It's the same angle the victims of Bernie Madoff had. Something seems too good to be true, so I'm gonna get me some.

Finally, it may be the case that everyone in the current version of the grifting circle had no idea it was a con. The original "desserts" may have known what they were doing, but everyone else, including the second and third generation "desserts" may have actually thought they were creating "green energy" to help women realize their goals. It worked for them, why wouldn't it work for all the other sisters further down the food chain?

:broke: :tear: :crossfingers:

kpage9

03-15-2014, 07:37 PM

Assuming that the people start the pyramid are fully aware that most participants will not be able to realize the promises made to them--and that those who follow are somehow convinced otherwise--yes, that's exactly what i mean.

Hi - Can you say more about what you mean by the line being nonexistent, at least after the first roll-out? Do you mean that all participants are both victims and perpetrators? By first rollout, what do you mean? The people who initiate the scheme? Just want to see what you're seeing there.

Dixon

03-15-2014, 11:51 PM

Finally, it may be the case that everyone in the current version of the grifting circle had no idea it was a con. The original "desserts" may have known what they were doing, but everyone else, including the second and third generation "desserts" may have actually thought they were creating "green energy" to help women realize their goals. It worked for them, why wouldn't it work for all the other sisters further down the food chain?
Anybody who's serious about making sure they're doing the right thing can find out the truth about pyramid schemes in 10 minutes on the Internet. Lots of these people read Wacco, and they'd have to work pretty hard to avoid my (and others') rants on the subject, including this thread. It's hard to believe that anyone who is at all honest can't see that it's a swindle if they really want to.

Part of the problem is the culture of New Age irrationality that pervades Wacco and the whole West County area. It's considered perfectly respectable to ignore good logic and follow your "heart" or your "intuition" or "faith" or your "spirit guide"--i.e., believe whatever you need to believe to justify ripping people off. Insisting that people have a moral/social responsibility to be logical about these things can get you labeled a curmudgeon, a bully, a patriarchal oppressor, etc. If you wanna see a couple of examples of the sort of wild flights of irrationality local people I know have allowed themselves in order to BS themselves that pyramid schemes are okay, read my article "Pyramid of Betrayal (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?103624-The-Gospel-According-to-Dixon-18-Pyramid-of-Betrayal&p=177088#post177088)".

Dixon

03-16-2014, 12:21 AM

Patricia, I'm no math whiz, but I can tell you this: The odds of making money versus losing your investment, whether you're on the 3rd, 6th, 8th or whatever level, depend entirely on whether three levels of payers get filled up below you. If the scam collapses before the 3rd level below you gets filled with suckers, your chance of profiting is zero and your chance of losing your investment is 100%. If the 3rd level below you does get filled with suckers before the thing collapses, your chance of profiting is 100% and your chance of losing your money is zero. So there's really no way of telling if you're gonna win or lose until the thing has died, except that each successive level has less chance of profiting than the one before it and, ultimately, around 9 out of 10 participants will lose no matter how long the thing goes on. If we had figures for how many levels the average pyramid scheme lasts before collapsing, we could give rough estimates for each level's probability of "success", but I doubt such figures exist.

Incidentally, if the level 3 levels below you only gets partly filled with suckers before the scam collapses, you'll still profit, but it'll be less than the full amount expected. For instance, in the Women's "Wisdom" Circle, with a buy-in of $5000, a "winner" would get a $40,000 payday if the 3rd level below her has all 8 slots filled (8 x 5,000), but if the scam collapses when only, say, 3 of the slots on that level are filled, she'd "only" get $15,000 (3 x $5000). If only one of the slots is filled, she'd get $5000, breaking even.

Also, note that the swindler who starts the pyramid gets more than $40,000. She gets the buy-in fees from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd levels below her, since there's no one above her in the pyramid to pass the money from those first two levels up to. So it'd be (2 + 4 + 8 =) 14 x $5000 = $70,000--on an investment of $0, 'cause she didn't have to pay to join! One of the victims of the Women's "Wisdom" Circle tells me privately that the woman who started it here had fled the police in Ashland, Oregon and brought the infection to Sonoma County. Unfortunately, this victim refuses to go to the cops about it, despite my urgings. So this asshole will be free to victimize others.

Hey Dixon - I was thinking that it'd be nice to have a stat that reflects the asymmetrical odds with a pyramid scheme. 89% is interesting, but it makes it sound like everyone has those odds -- one in ten. But I think the actual odds would start high with the originators and go down progressively with each level to become zero at a certain level. It'd be great to capture that mathematically somehow. I think it'd show why it's scam and not just a long-shot investment. Just an idea, if you've run into something like that, or saw a way to convey it.

Dixon

03-16-2014, 12:24 AM

BTW, Ted Pole, I love the title you came up with: Women's Grifting Circle! :biglaugh:

Shandi

03-16-2014, 07:02 AM

PDines,

:thankyou1:
You echo my thoughts and feelings! Thank you so much for expressing your thoughtful, compassionate, and just wisdom. My heart and mind resonates with all that you've said.

I also had another thought about these circles, which is why men aren't invited. I guess there are many reasons, but one could be that men being known for having more logic and more experience in the business world, would sniff this out quickly. More than likely they wouldn't be as naive as most women with little or no experience. Women who do have more business smarts may see this as an opportunity "made in heaven".

Hi Kathy - Thanks very much for sharing more of your thoughts.

To me this isn't about protecting a woman who makes a truly informed choice...

Shandi

03-16-2014, 07:50 AM

Kathy,
There actually has been one woman who has indicated her feelings, although posted in another thread "WoMan's Gifting Circles". I'm just copying some of her post here. I do wonder about the other women of Wacco (hey, that's catchy!) who may have had and still hold their experiences as positive, and may even be looking to participate in one now. K may be not be the only one, but so far the only one brave enough to step forward and stand in her own truth. Would she join or start one herself today? Is she still in contact with others who feel as she does? How would she counsel those who feel differently? These are just questions that go through my mind when someone defends a situation where many others have obviously been hurt financially and emotionally. I was one of the fortunate ones who escaped without losing money, but I did lose faith in circles of women, which was confirmed by two other experiences, not related to "gifting". These experiences were 20 years apart, so my willingness to step in once again, proved disastrous emotionally. Enough of me, let's hear from K:

"Many years ago I participated in a GIFTING community............and it was truly amazing.

The initiations we all had to go through about what was a GIFT (a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present ).....was deeply awakening to how I had misplaced expectations, how I was not clear in my intentions, how I only heard what I wanted to hear, how I was full of fear around many old dead patriarchal beliefs, how my energy was primarily placed on me, not the we, how I was more attached to my beliefs at times than the truth of reality. How could one possibly be upset with gifting a sister for her to improve her life in some small way?

Have any of you ever given a large gift completely unconditionally? Really?

We are adults and we all get to CHOOSE. In fact if you notice the title of GIFTing Cirlces, there is a hint.
It has been going for over 30 years....women play the way they play, leave it along........

I am deeply grateful for the experience I had in the past, regardless if I did not receive any gifts via that venue, guess life is like that....we don't always get to control what comes to us.....HOW REFRESHING:heart:

LETS stop the witch hunt!:waccosun:
________________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks to Shandi for the article and this note. Of COURSE there are other, better, more honest and direct ways of giving, and Shandi deserves a position in the Good Person Hall of Fame for her actions. And there is no question that this is a pyramid scheme. My interest really is in what happens to the women in this circle...how does it affect their sense of connectedness to the larger community, and to their own inner compass. In what it feels like from inside them.

I think the challenge here is to hold both the sense of right and wrong, and compassion and even maybe respect for the person

kathy.

kpage9

03-16-2014, 08:44 AM

here's a really good article about the ashland version of this thing, along with the name of the originator...back to google to see if i can find her. thanks to shandi for pointing me northward.

https://www.dailytidings.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120119/NEWS02/201190302

kpage9

03-16-2014, 08:47 AM

the first thing i notice about jumana king-harris--from her facebook page--is that she's promoting the sale of wolf puppies.

what a peach.

Shandi

03-16-2014, 08:49 AM

I'm doing my part by posting this on my Facebook timeline:

Women, we need your input, on WaccoBB.net There's an ongoing conversation about women's experiences with Gifting Circles. I've posted mine, which were in Hawaii in the 80's. All comments are welcome, whether you had a positive experience in making money and friends, or you lost money, and maybe even some self respect. Your feedback may serve as a warning to other women, and also serve the spirit of the highest good of all concerned.

Shandi

03-16-2014, 09:37 AM

I'm sharing what I've just sent to my entire mailing list of women:

"I want to ask if you or anyone you know have ever been involved in a "Women's Gifting Circle",where large amounts of money are gifted to join the circle, in order to help other women, and become empowered by making money together.

It's not something that's advertised, but comes through one on one invitations. They may be called "Garden Parties"
or by other names. Ever heard of them, or have any experience? I was involved in one when I lived in Hawaii, and was invited to another when I lived in Marin. I'm gathering stories, and would appreciate any you might have."

I will report any responses that I get, unless asked to keep in confidence.

Vicky10

03-16-2014, 11:43 AM

Hi Waccoites,
I am sorry I have not been able to keep up with this thread but we have been given notice that the house we rent is being sold and we must move. I've been up to my eyeballs in that mess.

Thanks, Shandi, for sharing the post from this woman. If one participates knowingly, understanding that it is truly a GIFT, and not an investment that expects return, then I believe the circles can have value. Somewhere way back in this thread (maybe Evalena's post?) it was said that one should only gift what they can easily afford to lose seeing it as a way to help a sister manifest a dream. I agree entirely.

As to the tone of some of these posts, I am reminded of an important spiritual lesson. There is a razor fine line between righteous indignation and self-righteousness. Some of these posts, Dixon's for example, have a witch hunt tone, wanting blood and women's names turned in for prosecution. Granted, Dixon's stated goal is to protect the community. But in the large scheme of things, women who participate in a gifting circle are an easy mark, it seems to me. The CEO of Chase Bank and the corrupt financial institutions that nearly brought our entire global economy to its knees and destroyed the lives of millions are still free. Even as a woman who joined one of these circles not understanding the mathematics of it and who cannot in good conscience invite anyone else, (the very behavior that contributes to the circle collapsing and my losing any opportunity for financial reward) I'd rather see people's desire for justice pointed at more worthy targets.

I both entered this current gifting circle and invited another woman with a pure heart. As I wrote in my initial post, my attention was focused on the developing nations micro-loan concept and it was this thread of conversation that helped me understand the unsustainable math of it all. Now the beauty of mathematics is its purity... one can't argue with it. It doesn't carry with it self-righteousness and bitterness. It simply is what it is. Therefore, my preference for how to deal with gifting circles is education not prosecution and most assuredly not the seductive trap of self-righteous that can so easily ensnare any of us.

Given my need to find a new home I may not be able to reply promptly to this thread but I will try my best to stay engaged for the wonderful value of education that is is providing. Thanks Waccoites.
Vicky

hummingbird

03-16-2014, 04:49 PM

I recently decided not to join a gifting circle...not because of any of the above expert stated opinions, but because I don't have the time right now to meet on the phone for an hour every week to explore my relationship to money.

I think that it should be noted that I was offered to join with no buy in....zero dollars down. Women are so inspired by this movement that they are willing to pay for others to join so they can have the experience. There actually IS gifting involved as well as receiving, which is something many women struggle to do.

Many of the negative comments (or so-called warnings) in this post are direct representations of why men are not invited to these circles. :hmmm:Logics make little way for the fluidity required to step into these circles in an empowered way. I know women who appear to be genuinely empowered by these circles. Not because of the money as an investment, but because they are challenged through the weekly group processes to change thier relationship to money. And they do. I have heard many times the shift in energy immediately opened them to receive in all areas of life. The original chunk of change was perhaps a small price to pay, considering how much money is spent on workshops and self improvement classes with no chance for monetary return on the investment! Maybe these women actually are empowered by the experience. Perhaps their experience is needed to shift the greed reality we all live in whether we choose to actively participate or not.

While I don't think that these circles are flawless in how they work, and I am sure that not everyone who joins is clean with their intentions, I am grateful to them because of the threat they pose to the archaic, patriarchal paradigm. (AKA status quo/ comfort zones). The old greed oriented monetary system is certainly challenged by women who take a risk and change their personal relationship to money. So I applaud these women for exploring how how they relate to their finances and for opening to new possibilities for working with it.

I believe that these circles will only continue to grow in numbers until something more evolved comes along.
I would love to invite the waccos to come up with the next phase of these circles. Fantasize. What WORKS about the gifting circles? Why are they so popular? It's clear that folks here have a sense of the aspects that don't work. How then could they be improved upon? Perhaps some of us need to explore our own relationship to cash flow and why we are triggered by the presence of these circles. If we can work through our own issues then we can recognize the good that comes with the bad.

There is a similar idea in the Hispanic community called a tanda. Everyone chips in $100 per paycheck. Everyone has a chance to receive. Period. It takes trust.

Perhaps we have something to learn.

Svea

03-17-2014, 08:16 PM

Wow. Thanks, as this post is a perfect example of the crap that is thrown around that causes the whole gifting pyramid scheme to regurgitate itself every few years. Bla Bla Bla. I like how you targeted men too. Real classy.

I'm a Dyke Goddess and I disapprove!!!

Svea (my real name)

I recently decided not to join a gifting circle...not because of any of the above expert stated opinions, but because I don't have the time right now to meet on the phone for an hour every week to explore my relationship to money.

I think that it should be noted that I was offered to join with no buy in....zero dollars down. Women are so inspired by this movement that they are willing to pay for others to join so they can have the experience. There actually IS gifting involved as well as receiving, which is something many women struggle to do.

Many of the negative comments (or so-called warnings) in this post are direct representations of why men are not invited to these circles. :hmmm:Logics make little way for the fluidity required to step into these circles in an empowered way. I know women who appear to be genuinely empowered by these circles. Not because of the money as an investment, but because they are challenged through the weekly group processes to change thier relationship to money. And they do. I have heard many times the shift in energy immediately opened them to receive in all areas of life. The original chunk of change was perhaps a small price to pay, considering how much money is spent on workshops and self improvement classes with no chance for monetary return on the investment! Maybe these women actually are empowered by the experience. Perhaps their experience is needed to shift the greed reality we all live in whether we choose to actively participate or not.

While I don't think that these circles are flawless in how they work, and I am sure that not everyone who joins is clean with their intentions, I am grateful to them because of the threat they pose to the archaic, patriarchal paradigm. (AKA status quo/ comfort zones). The old greed oriented monetary system is certainly challenged by women who take a risk and change their personal relationship to money. So I applaud these women for exploring how how they relate to their finances and for opening to new possibilities for working with it.

I believe that these circles will only continue to grow in numbers until something more evolved comes along.
I would love to invite the waccos to come up with the next phase of these circles. Fantasize. What WORKS about the gifting circles? Why are they so popular? It's clear that folks here have a sense of the aspects that don't work. How then could they be improved upon? Perhaps some of us need to explore our own relationship to cash flow and why we are triggered by the presence of these circles. If we can work through our own issues then we can recognize the good that comes with the bad.

There is a similar idea in the Hispanic community called a tanda. Everyone chips in $100 per paycheck. Everyone has a chance to receive. Period. It takes trust.

Perhaps we have something to learn.

DreadTori

03-17-2014, 08:23 PM

Bottom line is that the District attorney considers these "gifting circles" Pyramid schemes and scams. And this comes back every time the economy tanks and people get desperate for money and it targets the most vulnerable in our society. Every time it has shown up in Northern California, all the 'empowering women' rhetoric gets trotted out along with a bunch of New Age hooey. Lots of women end up manipulating and guilt-tripping women who figure it out that it's a huge scam.

Many cultures practice "tandas" but they do not have the pyramid structure. They are set up so that each person gifts what they can on a regular basis (usually once a week or once a month) and one person is gifted every week or month or whatever time period that is decided by all members. The number of members can be large or small. This is how many businesses get started or parents raise money to send their children to school. It's a different amount every week and there is an ordered list so each person knows when they will be gifted.

Gifting circles are NOT the same thing; they ask for large sums of money (usually $5000 or more); the "circle" is limited to a certain number (usually 15, with one at top, then two, then four, then 8 on the bottom); it splits into two smaller circles every time someone is gifted and the whole thing starts over, with 8 new "gifters." Nearly 90% of women who join these never get a penny.

And, once again, it's considered a crime by the DA.

I...
There is a similar idea in the Hispanic community called a tanda. Everyone chips in $100 per paycheck. Everyone has a chance to receive. Period. It takes trust. ...

Svea

03-17-2014, 08:31 PM

Bottom line is that the District attorney considers these "gifting circles" Pyramid schemes and scams.
Exactly!!

Svea

PDines

03-17-2014, 09:14 PM

I thought it might be helpful to state again what a pyramid scheme is. I think that what's key to protecting ourselves and others is to recognize the form, whatever name it goes under. This isn't about vilifying gifts or sharing or community or empowerment. It's about seeing when those important concepts and powerful words are a COVER STORY for a pyramid scheme. It's about developing our ability to see behind the curtain.

The key notion is - What is promised? Does it match what's delivered? There might be nontangible benefits, but if the promise includes money, and people give their money with the expectation/promise that they will get that money back and more, then it's smart to pay attention to how the money part of it works. Otherwise, we make ourselves vulnerable to being conned and ripped off.

And yes sometimes there are true gifting structures. That would be when we know that it's a gift when we gift it, we truly don't expect it back or to make a profit, we don't have any incentive to get recruits in order to get it back, and no one else who joins expects their money back. Then perhaps it's actually gifting. But just the word doesn't make it so. The structure does.

But what we're talking here about is how people use these lovely words to disguise pyramid schemes -- and how to see through that. To me this conversation is an invitation for us to develop the skills to see this structure, even when it's hidden. I mean, who of us were taught this in school! So we get to share lessons learned with each other.

So here's more info on that. I hope it's helpful.

===
FWD: A pyramid scheme is an unsustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

That website has more information on the definition.
===
FWD: As its name indicates, the pyramid scheme is structured like a pyramid. It typically starts with one person - the initial recruiter - who is on top at the apex of the pyramid. This person recruits a second who is required to "invest" a certain amount, which is paid to the initial recruiter. In order to make his or her money back, the new recruit must recruit more people under him or her, each of whom will also have to invest. If the recruit gets 10 more people to invest, he or she will make a profit with just a small investment.

Further, the new people become recruiters and each one is in turn required to enlist an additional 10 people, resulting in a total of 100 more people. Each of those new recruits is also obligated to pay their investment to the person who recruited him or her. Recruiters get a profit of all of the money received, minus their initial investment paid to the person who recruited them. The process continues until the base of the pyramid is no longer strong enough to support the upper structure, and there are no more recruits. (From pyramid schemes to envelope stuffing, there are a lot of scams masquerading as legitimate part-time work. Read more in "Recognize And Avoid "Work At Home" Scams (https://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/09/work-at-home-scam.asp).")

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https://i.investopedia.com/inv/articles/site/042104_1.gif

</tbody>

The Fraud
The problem is that the scheme cannot go on forever, because there are a finite number of people who can join the scheme (even if all the people in the world were to join). People are deceived into believing that by giving money, they will make more money; however, no wealth has been created, no product has been sold, no investment has been made, and no service has been provided.

The fraud lies in the fact that it is impossible for the cycle to sustain itself, so people will lose their money somewhere down the line. Those who are most vulnerable are those toward the bottom of the pyramid, where it becomes impossible to recruit the number of people required to pay off the previous layer of recruiters. This kind of fraud is illegal in the U.S. and most countries throughout the world. It is estimated that 90% of people who get involved in a pyramid scheme will lose their money.

Fraud Disguised

Despite the illusion of legality presented by these revamped schemes, they are still illegal. Therefore it is important to recognize the characteristics of such so-called investment plans.

Many schemes will adopt the guise of gift-giving or loans that take place in investment clubs (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/investmentclub.asp) because none of these activities are technically illegal. However, the practice of donating a gift to someone (the recruiter), then having to recruit people into the club in order to receive a return on your investment (or your gift, rather) is essentially a pyramid scheme in disguise.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/04/042104.asp

Barry

03-17-2014, 11:25 PM

I thought I add my :2cents:, timidly (being a man and all :wink:)

... I know women who appear to be genuinely empowered by these circles. Not because of the money as an investment, but because they are challenged through the weekly group processes to change their relationship to money. And they do. I have heard many times the shift in energy immediately opened them to receive in all areas of life. The original chunk of change was perhaps a small price to pay, considering how much money is spent on workshops and self improvement classes with no chance for monetary return on the investment! ...

This is one of the things that caught my interest that prompted me to start this thread (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?99960-Women-s-Gifting-Circle-redux&p=169919#post169919). The "circle" is definitely a pyramid, but it is also an (expensive) ticket into an ongoing group process. You might even call it a workshop. Aside from the tortured logic and language ("archaic, patriarchal paradigm", AKA "math") that is employed to obfuscate that is a pyramid, I'm sure that the group process helps many women, including some of the ones that end up on the short end of the stick. There is a community building aspect and there is a positive thinking aspect. Either or both could be helpful to some women, and yes, even those aspects may turn negative for some women when the money fails to appear.

Also, I have very limited second-hand knowledge of the circles' workings, but I'm guessing that many of the levels are only partially filled, possibly down several levels. If that's true (anybody?) then that throws off the math being discuss here (89% chance of losing your "gift"). It would make for less-rich desserts, and a lower proportion of losers to winners.

...I would love to invite the waccos to come up with the next phase of these circles. Fantasize. What WORKS about the gifting circles? Why are they so popular?... How then could they be improved upon?...
:idea: How it could be improved is easy! Lower the investment! Say, to just 10% of the current $5,000 (just $500). That way there is still enough money to focus the mind and create some inspiration (and some real money if you come out ahead), and an amount that could be chalked up to an educational expense if lost. If it's really about "the weekly group processes to change their relationship to money" then $500 should be sufficient. After that it's just greed.:waccosun:

PDines

03-17-2014, 11:38 PM

This is what confuses me. If it's a workshop, why not call it a workshop? If it's a group with an entry fee, why not call it that? If someone isn't going to get their money back, or if it's just expected to come back in some indirect abundance belief system, why not just say that? If it's presented in these ways, it avoids being a pyramid scheme. To me, the simple solution is to be HONEST and FAIR in the offer or promise that one makes. That to me is also how the teachings and support would have the most validity and be based on integrity.

But, in the pitches I've heard, it's not presented that way. You are told you will directly get the money back many times over, and that it will come from new people coming in, so there's a strong incentive to bring people in -- not only by your own desires, but those in the line above you. When that's done in a pyramid structure, that will inherently create ripping off the people who get brought in. And people are NOT told the way the math makes sure that later and later people will increasingly get ripped off. And usually your friends and people in your community. That's inherent in the structure. We don't need to tinker with the structure, or make it cheaper, or anything along those lines. We don't need a cheaper ripoff. The structure is rotten. We need to just have a different structure.

To me this is a really clear distinction and I don't understand how that gets lost.

Also Barry, you might also be interested in my prior post about how the figure of 89% loss doesn't reflect the asymmetrical nature of the loss. i.e. the ones who start it have the best odds of getting paid, which reduces down to zero as one goes down the pyramid. To me that's clearly why con men start this in the first place. They know they'll make good money from it. I don't think a sincere ethical person would come up with a structure like this.

Also, while maybe some people *of their own volition* are able to make lemonade from lemons, I don't think this is the best way to create the lessons and it has a collateral damage -- harming relationships, causing people to be more suspicious and less open to real magic, etc.

I'd like us to aim higher and create structures that a wise community would have to teach and empower people in wise, caring, and ethical ways. I think when we ask that question, we get very different answers. I don't think pyramid schemes would emerge from that question.

Why are people so committed to justifying pyramid schemes? Why can't we nurture love, empowerment, and lessons without lying and ripping people off?

The "circle" is definitely a pyramid, but it is also an (expensive) ticket into an ongoing group process. You might even call it a workshop. ...

joybird

03-18-2014, 12:19 AM

Very clearly stated -thank you
It's the COVER STORY that is the problem.
Joy

I thought it might be helpful to state again what a pyramid scheme is....

joybird

03-18-2014, 12:24 AM

$5000 or $500 - unless you change the cover story and the structure it's still a pyramid scheme.

Joy

:idea: How it could be improved is easy! Lower the investment! Say, to just 10% of the current $5,000 (just $500). That way there is still enough money to focus the mind and create some inspiration (and some real money if you come out ahead), and an amount that could be chalked up to an educational expense if lost. If it's really about "the weekly group processes to change their relationship to money" then $500 should be sufficient. After that it's just greed.:waccosun:

Shandi

03-18-2014, 08:38 AM

Just making an initial report: I've had 6 responses and all have basically said they were ripped off, even my friend who indicated there had been 2 times! One woman had never heard of it.....

I'm sharing what I've just sent to my entire mailing list of women:

"I want to ask if you or anyone you know have ever been involved in a "Women's Gifting Circle",where large amounts of money are gifted to join the circle, in order to help other women, and become empowered by making money together.

It's not something that's advertised, but comes through one on one invitations. They may be called "Garden Parties"
or by other names. Ever heard of them, or have any experience? I was involved in one when I lived in Hawaii, and was invited to another when I lived in Marin. I'm gathering stories, and would appreciate any you might have."

I will report any responses that I get, unless asked to keep in confidence.

Shandi

03-18-2014, 08:58 AM

I think that the appeal of making $40,000 (which is what one woman I know made) is a lot more exciting than just $4,000., if the entry ticket was only $500. If you had a choice of gaining $40,000 or $4,000, and you could be "sponsored" for your investment what would your choice be? These things are promoted in a way that has no mention of losing. (That might put doubt in someone's mind!) It's much like many promotions we're subject to, the downside is seldom mentioned, except maybe in "fineprint" I'd rather make a $500 investment for a true educational workshop where I'm clear on what I'll get for my money. Otherwise, I'd just as soon buy Lotto tickets, and be clear up front about the odds.

It seems that whenever a circle of women gather there is an exchange of thoughts, feelings, and experiences. This is also an education of sorts that can change the direction of lives through bonding and support, and many times can be achieved for very little investment. And the positive results can be with us the rest of our lives.

[math corrected. ~Barry]

Lower the investment! Say, to just 10% of the current $5,000 (just $500). ...

podfish

03-19-2014, 08:54 AM

I recently decided not to join a gifting circle...not because of any of the above expert stated opinions, ... Women are so inspired by this movement that they are willing to pay for others to join so they can have the experience......

Many of the negative comments (or so-called warnings) in this post are direct representations of why men are not invited to these circles. :hmmm:Logics make little way for the fluidity required to step into these circles in an empowered way.
ok, if you're going to prejudge us because of our gender, I'll cop to being a man right off. (I never thought I'd be on Joe Manthey's side of an issue! weird..) Sure sounds like you're disparaging women, too. Women are fluid and not logical? or disempowered by logic but not by fluid?? I really don't get it... and I don't want to get into your implication about the irrelevance of 'experts'.

but do realize, you're basically saying that it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served, and the fact that the organizers are swindlers isn't enough reason to avoid them and their program.

kpage9

03-19-2014, 09:29 AM

Podfish, I think Hummingbird IS saying it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served...not in so many words of course, and H please correct me if I'm wrong.

But let's put this is a bigger context for a moment. How many of us will admit to putting up with being bullied--sometimes cruelly--in programs like est? Some of us pay heaps of money to chat with "your own live psychic" and keep coming back for more, cynically doled out with little teasers to return. Others of us--this may be diminishing--will marry or otherwise mate with someone with a teeny tiny little closed-up heart in the belief that we alone have the key that will unlock that sad-sack's wonderfulness.

Here's just a few of the varieties of mistreatment we voluntarily sign up for:

Swindles, 6 ways from Sunday*
Bullying
Flat-out lies
Romantic delusion-induced misery

This conversation is focusing on one really interesting example, and my hope is that the perps get justice, and the good to be found in these circles can evolve into a no-greed format.

But if we step back i think we'll see that the outrage deployed toward this particular slice of human behavior ignores the larger point, which i herewith take a stab at articulating: There are deep, biological and ancient yearnings in us humans for meaningful connection. Our prevailing culture has swapped Stuff for connection, and our economy depends on the continued ascendency of that swap. We are all suffering for it, or most of us anyway. And blindly we grope for a return...willing to forego good sense, dignity, even safety in order to get a little oxytocin flowing in, the milk of human kindness, manna and nectar...connection. Love.

These gifting circles come SO CLOSE but with a cynical core that has nothing to do with the beautiful ideas or even beautiful experiences some can have--until they don't. But the circles, the brilliant human potential programs, the promise of connection to the Great Beyond, the adorable lying lovers, and god knows the lovely new $250 shoes....all part of an economic system that inevitably, inexorably floods us with false needs, floating us toward satisfying those needs as if it were really the right thing to do.

Okay I am now waxing lofty and don't think i can really come to a decent conclusion here--my wings are starting to melt in the heat--but am grateful, SO grateful for this conversation.

...and to barry for making the frame for it.

kathy

*archaic term meaning "a lot of different ways, or just a lot"

Shandi

03-19-2014, 01:33 PM

Kathy,

If it's o.k. to be swindled if higher values are being served, than it must be o.k. to swindle if I perceive that higher values are being served.

We are all vulnerable to predators, and they know just what we want/need to hear. Some of them even take courses in "mind control" or neuro-linquistic programming. Some are just very good at sales. That's really what it comes down to.....sales through maniupulation. Because if the truth was visible, we might not buy.

I never did the EST training, but know people who did. I've only used a live psychic once, and pretty much trust my own instincts. But I've been manipulated out of large sums of money, in my prior business. I had no knoiwledge or training in contract law. Once I learned the moves of one trickster, I tried to warn a large hotel, like the Hyatt, that this person would leave in the middle of the night, without paying his bill. They didn't believe me, and may have thought I was a bit off, but he did just as I said he would.

Whenever a friend is about to spend money on a service, I try to make sure that she's informed about the details of what will be provided, and the total cost, along with a written agreement. I've never had anyone warn me about things, so I do believe it's a great thing to do for people we care about.

Only 2 days ago, I saw a dead branch hanging in a neighbor's tree. It was about 5' long, and the large end pointed straight down....above the path they use every day to their front door. I pointed it out to them, and the woman said "Oh thank you, we'll take that down right away". Guess what.....it's still hanging! It will fall eventually, with a strong wind, and hopefully no one will be underneath it. I wouldn't chance it myself. There are enough things to be aware of, without inviting trouble.

I do agree that we all seek connection, but it can come through so many avenues at hardly any cost at all. I would advise anyone who feels the need to connect, to look at volunteering for something that resonates with you. This can bring meaningful connection along with oxytocin, and even improved health!

Podfish, I think Hummingbird IS saying it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served...

But let's put this is a bigger context for a moment. How many of us will admit to putting up with being bullied--sometimes cruelly--in programs like est? Some of us pay heaps of money to chat with "your own live psychic" and keep coming back for more, cynically doled out with little teasers to return.
...
There are deep, biological and ancient yearnings in us humans for meaningful connection. ...

hummingbird

03-19-2014, 09:32 PM

Podfish, I think Hummingbird IS saying it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served...not in so many words of course, and H please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I'm not saying that. Thanks for asking though. It's terrible how quickly folks posting here jump to put words in another's mouth. I makes me hesitate about posting.

The only thing I will say about swindling is that it is present every where in our lives. I've seen the graceful art of off-ripping in legit businesses in down town...by the business owners. I have known few landlords who are not out to swindle and exploit to some degree. I just don't get why we are so quick to judge. What these women are doing is certainly no worse than the stock market. Doesn't someone have to lose for you to win there?

What if these circles are evolving? What if the skeletal pyramid has layed the tracks for something new and different? Is it possible that they have not been penetrated by the devil himself ? Is it possible for something to emerge that is not your old black and white 11% game?

Maybe something cool is happening and the folks posting here just don't get it. Maybe our obsession with justice has narrowed our view. Frozen our nuro-pathways. Constricted. Closed. Tight.

Regardless of the of the opinions stated here, I am still grateful to these women for bending the rules. As we speak they are experimenting with new ways of working with and looking at relationship to money. They are not doing workshops. They are on the ground running. That takes courage. I'm sure there will be something valuable to learn for all involved. I actually fully support the $5000. Jump off and go for it!!! For most women throwing down $5000 takes a leap of faith. The act in and of itself is worth it.... unless you are looking at the numbers only...

The fact that the numbers seem to be the most important piece to some saddens me. I attempt to live for the experience, not the numbers. Many of the women in the groups might be attempting to do the same. If they are, perhaps they are richer than us all. I yearn for the day when my life is not ruled by fear and numbers. I hope the rest of my species finds a way out as well.

I once gave something I loved away, for the practice. I still think about it 10 years later. Good lesson. Good experience.

$5000 is only money. It's not my money these women are playing with, so I will just leave it be.

I do not support this witch hunt.

I am sorry for those whose limited views have painted such an ugly picture of a creative process.

It's really just money.... no different than anything else we chose to value.

PDines

03-19-2014, 10:32 PM

Wow, Hummingbird, what a fascinating viewpoint. I appreciate you sharing it just so we can see it. Of course, anyone is allowed to steer their life by any viewpoint they want. However I think there's some key things you're missing/conflating.

* What I hear you say is that it's only money. But it's not. It's trust betrayed, relationship betrayed, lies told, people hurt. These experiences are real, this pain is real, but seems to appear nowhere in the story you're telling here. Do you just not care? Do you need others to be willing to be ripped off and not complain?

* Also, you might not care about money, but do you have a right to tell people that they're not supposed to care if their money is taken under false pretenses? For some people, money is not a pure evil to be avoided, nor the opposite of consciousness. Instead, it represents work accomplished and the ability to pay their rent and the ability to create possibility in their lives. They have a right to get honest information about what the deal is when they give that money to someone else.

* As to the other aspects of these circles -- the connection, empowerment, etc. -- it's not that these qualities in life aren't valuable -- they're very valuable. It's just of concern if they're used as a coverup to keep people from seeing or discussing that people's money is being taken on the basis of lies. I think all the qualities of empowerment and community and lessons can be achieved in tangible real ways without lying and ripping people off. In fact, I think they're better accomplished that way. So I'm becoming increasingly astonished that some people can't seem to imagine those positive paths to those outcomes. Really, we can't imagine better ways to learn and connect??

* I hear you say that there's a range of people making a profit in our society -- as if there's no difference in people making it by lying vs. other means -- as if other people being dishonest makes it right and we should never call it out. But I think it's appropriate to call it out in constructive ways in many places, and to aspire for a culture that's better than that. Without accountability, it won't get better but worse.

But I don't think that because New Age language is used those people should be exempt from being called out, or that every conversation needs to discuss every instance in a society. That's too unwieldy. I think it's reasonable to talk about one case at a time. Plus this is a situation where people can have a direct effect -- by watching out for the real financial structure of offers that they receive. Also, to me there's something especially painful here -- where the community relationships and new age language hide the real game and result in people being ripped off by a friend, by someone who says they care about you and want to empower you. Can't you see why that's more personally painful than for ex. some big financial wheeling-and-dealing on Wall Street?

* It seems that you think it's more conscious to not care about money. But I don't think you see how that's enabling to the person doing the ripoffs. If you're willing to be ripped off to get lessons, that's your choice. But I don't think it's compassionate or conscious not to care if other people get ripped off, or to object when people try to warn others about how it's being done.

* I hear you say that you've learned by giving away things that matter to you. That's your journey, and was your choice. But can you really not see the difference between you knowing that you're giving a gift when you give it, vs. thinking that it's an investment and you'll get it back and more? Doesn't it matter what the promise is?

* I hear that you think people bringing this up is a witch hunt, unfairly attacking people who are doing cool innovative things around money, and that people stuck in our materialistic paradigm just can't get it. But to me that conflates a bunch of things that aren't the same.

First, I don't like non-fact-based personal attacks in general -- but I don't see those being made here. People have stated their concerns strongly, but not as personal attacks but by describing in a factual way how these covert pyramid schemes are cloaked by pretty language. We've also talked about some people being more innocent than others in understanding why this structure is a ripoff. So what I see us doing is warning people about a hidden hazard in the road, so they can better protect themselves. Certainly if they don't care about the problems with this structure, they can still choose to participate -- and bear the consequences. But there are many folks who would prefer to accurately know when something is a gift vs. an investment that will be returned and multiplied. And they would rather not recruit their friends to be ripped off either. Or pay the consequences of all that. They'd rather be informed so they can make more conscious choices. It concerns me that you object to that.

Second, to me, the pyramid structure is the opposite of consciousness, and is totally consistent with the cold-hearted materialistic culture that you decry. I don't think a person of integrity would create this financial structure. If people are doing cool innovative things, great - as long as they're making honest claims instead of lying to get people's money. I don't hear people here making blanket statements that negate being innovative. We're just objecting when it's covering up a ripoff. That's a key distinction that's being made, that I don't hear reflected in your story. Is there really no way to innovate without lying to people about whether they'll get their money back or not?

>> The bottom line to me is that I think your approach is a setup for someone to get ripped off. I want to create a world that's safe for idealism and love and growth and all sorts of wonderful things. But I've also had to learn that some people aren't working to create that world, but instead are taking advantage of those ideals and creating a world that's unsafe instead. They're like predators and will say anything to get money. You might not care about money, but they do, and they're glad to take it off your hands! They look for people who are idealistic rather than street smart, who are willing to be ripped off to get a lesson, who don't believe in accountability. You might be fine with being treated that way -- but a lot of people aren't. And to me love, compassion, empowerment, and consciousness need to be based on a foundation of caring about other people and acting from integrity -- or it's just the old game in new clothing.

>> Which makes me wonder -- have you ever played a role in one of these circles? Did you lose money or make a profit? Perhaps that's influencing the arguments that you're making?

No, I'm not saying that. Thanks for asking though. It's terrible how quickly folks posting here jump to put words in another's mouth....

joybird

03-20-2014, 12:28 AM

The thing is that it is easy enough to see that these circles/pyramids are evolving in the direction of more evolved sounding rhetoric. But the nature of the scheme has not evolved. I did one 25 years ago- it also was about support and bending the rules (which is part of why I loved it until I figured it out- hooray for bending the rules! really). We were told we were laying tracks for something new to emerge. We wanted new things for ourselves and others and our relationships to money. NONE of that has happened, because this scheme is based on not speaking the whole truth. And new great things do not flow out of lies and deception.

The support, the looking at how we perceive receiving, how we relate to giving are cool and powerful. I am not looking at this with a closed, constricted mind. I WAS there. All of the possibilities were so exciting.

It is still a pyramid scheme where most people will lose money.And that is not spoken about honestly or directly. If all were told the full truth and came to join with choice about it fine. But that is not so. I am not looking at numbers only. I am looking at a lack of honesty in asking new women in.

Joy

Shandi

03-20-2014, 07:12 AM

Gratitude just doesn't say enough about your compassionate insight and intelligence in speaking to this topic. I so appreciate your willingness to take the time to share your truest feelings and perspective, with no need to attack or criticize another's point of view. You are a real treasure in my book!

Wow, Hummingbird, what a fascinating viewpoint. I appreciate you sharing it just so we can see it. Of course, anyone is allowed to steer their life by any viewpoint they want. However I think there's some key things you're missing/conflating....

Shandi

03-20-2014, 07:44 AM

I agree with you on one thing for sure, and that is "I'm sure there will be something valuable to learn for all involved". Those who win, and those who don't, all learn something of value, as perceived by them.

The thing about the stock market, the lottery, or gambling at the local casino (which draws a lot of criticism!) that's different than the "women's circle" way of investing, is that we know up front that we're gambling, and the odds really aren't in our favor, but we want to try anyway, because we know that if we don't play we can't win,. In the "circle", we are told that our chances are good to not only get back our original investment, but to make a "killing" (so to speak) by getting 4, 5, maybe even 6 times our investment! And if we don't have the money, our sisters will "provide" it because they really care about us, and want us to succeed in making this hunk of cash. And, since we're all in this wonderful, caring, spiritual circle together, it's a "win-win". Who could resist this? Who has been able to, after being approached by a dear and loving, trusted friend? Not me, not then....... but now.
You see, I did learn "something valuable", and since my life consists of sharing valuable information, this is just one more bit to pass on. But without manipulation or lies, or even any attachment.

We all have our separate journeys, and caring doesn't mean trying to control another adult's choices, except in cases where we are the caretakers of an adult who's mentally/emotionally impaired. Then, we have a responsibility to step in to restrain the action that may hurt them or another person. I've been called on to stop impending suicides, but have actually had second thoughts after seeing the lives of those people I saved. We can only do so much, in the end, it really is a journey of the self. We have to be aware of the signposts that are always on the path. Some might even say that our "angels" place them there to guide us. Asking for "higher guidance" may be wise counsel before making uninformed decisions that will have a large impact on our lives.

Another great exercise before playing in the circle is to ask yourself what you'd do with the $40,000-$50,000 that you're hoping to get. This will take you to revealing places in your spirit. I'd love to know what some of these actions might be. What wonderful things can a gift of money buy for ourselves and those we love, or even strangers......?

Have you ever received an unexpected large amount of money? I have. The interesting thing was that it was the exact amount of money that had been swindled from me 15 years earlier. I gave half of it away to someone in great need.

kpage9

03-20-2014, 07:53 AM

Shandi, just a brief re-visit of your post and pdines'. you praised hers as having compassionate insight...and...no need to attack or criticize.

but the part she directed toward hummingbird
"Do you just not care? Do you need others to be willing to be ripped off and not complain?"

just doesn't seem so compassionate to me. it seems like an accusation of heartless sociopathy.

kathy

Shandi

03-20-2014, 08:22 AM

In my perception, which is all I have, these are valid questions that have been asked of someone who blatantly refuses to acknowledge that most women have been harmed by this practice, as much as women are harmed by other practices, where manipulation is the real name of the game. This kind of similar game has been practiced by highly respected "spiritual teachers/gurus". Many people, both men and women, have become dissolutioned with the "incongruity" between the words and the actions. This practice reflects much similarity.

Maybe you two should start a circle with those who want the empowerment that comes with the "gift". You stand a chance of making some good money, and teaching others how to get out of the "black and white", patriarchal mindset.

Step up to the plate, make some calls, see how many you can get to play with you. That's the test. Words come easy. Just be sure to start with those who haven't heard much about the possible downside, or "gift" of losing money to their sisters. And of course, you won't mention it, will you? And, be sure to tell them not to say anything about it to anyone. It's just between you sisters.

Shandi, just a brief re-visit of your post and pdines'. you praised hers as having compassionate insight...and...no need to attack or criticize.

but the part she directed toward hummingbird
"Do you just not care? Do you need others to be willing to be ripped off and not complain?"

just doesn't seem so compassionate to me. it seems like an accusation of heartless sociopathy.

hummingbird

03-20-2014, 09:05 AM

Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? I suggest the current model has evolved. Right now. Not the past. Of course you will make an effort to make me a bad guy. From where I stand the only posts in this thread that carry reason and compassion are those suggesting the narrow, panicked ones let it rest. All I see in many posts are hatred and anger dressed up as "I'm here to help" or so-called justice.

Before I read this thread I had thought little of the circles, decided to let them be not something I would join. After reading some of the writing from the the lynch mob, I see that what these women are doing is a huge threat to the status quo. This I fully and whole heartedly support. This is not because I am uneducated in these regards like you work hard to illustrate. Nor am I immoral.

So, I thank you for actively placing words in my mouth again…. The word for word lawyer style argumentation makes for not really trying to understand what is truly being said. What do you have to lose in letting your perspective rest for even a wee moment? Obviously not $5000. Needing the last word, makes for poor listening. What IS being said here by folks who disagree with you? What is between the lines? Not what do you need to prove here in order to make your point, but what is really being said? How are you being asked to stretch your mind?

I guess what I suggest is that there are no victims or perpetrators here. If we are commited to someone being the bad guy. We are just as commited to the world being full of potential victims. I'm not in that party. No way. I don't support or condone any behavior that forces any one to stay in the roll of victim. The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience than any thing they point the finger at.

Many of us are commited to being victims, perpetrators, or rescuers. The rescuers are completely lost with no one to save. What would you lose if the women in these circles were given responsibility for their own choices. Who would you rescue?

Again, I have never participated in these circles. I have never joined a pyramid, but have been invited to plenty. One offered cashing in on some rocking vibrators. Difficult to resist! I only support pushing the edge, I don't think money is bad, nor is earning it. I just think it's funny how rigid your opinion is. How limited and tired. Makes me yawn. I can hear the grand parents hollerin'. "Thats not the way we made money when I was a kid, I had to shovel shit for a nickel a day."

If you don't want to join the circles, please join me in not participating. Just please get of the high horse.

A total tangent, or perhaps not:

When I go to cross at main street and Hwy12 on fridays around lunch time, I cross on the side of the street that does not host the man saluting. I realize that he must have invested something big in his ideas about right and wrong, perhaps a huge part of his heart. He came out to the street a couple of years ago, after the women in black, actively opposing their peaceful stance. I realize that everything he stands for is not wrong and offensive, but because of the apparent anger he holds in delivering his message I avoid him and send him love from a distance. I'm sure there is a reason he holds so tightly to his ideas. He appears to carry trauma from a war in his body and actions. It's sad.

Since you ask the question if I'm have some dark past with these women's circles, I have to ask... Are the nay saying writers here paid by the right wing to scream and holler about anything on the internet that pushes the edges of normal for society? Are you internet trolls? In all honesty, I know you are not, but some of the rhetoric does start to appear redundant and fear based.

Fear based. Not where I want to live. No thank you.

joybird

03-20-2014, 09:31 AM

I was ripped off and I speak for my self.

Joy

Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? ...

hummingbird

03-20-2014, 09:50 AM

Shandi

03-20-2014, 10:23 AM

Have you ever had your purse stolen. Ever been raped? Have you had your house broken into? Your child murdered? Would you consider any of these events "crimes"? Any "victims"? No, o.k. you're entitled to your opinion. Has there ever been a time in your life when you felt victimized? That is, before you came to your present enlightened realization of no victims/no perpetrators. How did you get to the other side of that? I would think that an enlightened person would want to share the process to bring others to a more evolved position, which would benefit ourselves and the planet.

"I suggest the current model has evolved". And I do believe that current models of many things have evolved, but you don't give any evidence of your perception on this. Is this just wishful thinking? Little girls are being targeted by online predators, which are making the whole model much easier than the old ways. But then, the little girls shouldn't be talking to strangers, ....oh yeah, that's the old model.

Before this thread, you say you thought little about circles "Before I read this thread I had thought little of the circles, decided to let them be not something I would join." I wonder if you even knew of them, but I want to believe that you did, and for some reason, you aren't telling.....why you decided not to join. If you fully and whole heartedly support them, why hesitate to join, and participate, rather than speak about something from a distance that you really haven't experienced? Something's not congruent here. I may need some help from other smarter members. Am I not seeing a clear picture?

Rather than ask "what is really being said", tell us what you "think" is really being said. Because, intelligence dictates knowledge of many perspectives and interpretations of words. We can all read different things "between the lines". Give us the benefit of your reading. One thing I get is that you think that this is a "witch hunt". Now, were witches victims, or not? If not, then why call this discussion a term well known by many as a crime. Maybe you think there were no Holocaust victims either. Or even better, that it never happened. Will you stand up for your beliefs, or shrink away in silence?

I can get into the perception of no victims, and no perpetrators, especially with the belief that we all "unconsciously" choose our reality. Even an unborn baby may choose her earthly life from beyond this realm. But we're talking about "conscious" choices, and how we make them, based on the information we have at hand. How else do we make all the daily choices we're faced with? I avoid going into unlit places at night, not out of fear, but from available information at hand. I don't talk on my cell phone or text while driving, because nothing is more important at that moment than focusing on the task at hand, which is moving a powerfully heavy piece of equipment that can maim and kill in seconds, if I'm not paying attention. Fear or wisdom?

It's interesting to me that you share your choice to cross away from the man who salutes, and instead avoid his anger, and send him love from a distance. What might happen if you spoke with this man? Is avoidance the best use of your judgement, and I think, perhaps a bit of fear?

You aren't bad. What if there is no bad or good? Try this instead....."Wanted or Unwanted", which places the responsibility on me, not anyone or anything. A manipulative process which robs anyone of their money, or peace of mind is for me....."UNWANTED", and it seems for you, too. Since you've been approached several times, and didn't take the bait. Also "UNWANTED" is this ongoing discussion by a "lynch mob" which has proved uncomfortable for you. I'd say, it may be time to re-focus your energy on things that you whole heartedly support....."evolved women's circles". Know about any? Please share with us when you find them. This could change the whole direction of this thread!

I suggest the current model has evolved. Right now. ...

I guess what I suggest is that there are no victims or perpetrators here. If we are commited to someone being the bad guy. We are just as commited to the world being full of potential victims. I'm not in that party. No way. I don't support or condone any behavior that forces any one to stay in the roll of victim. The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience than any thing they point the finger at.

Many of us are commited to being victims, perpetrators, or rescuers. ...

Svea

03-20-2014, 10:26 AM

podfish

03-20-2014, 10:27 AM

I'm curious about recent rip-offs. Are there any new phase rip-off postings? Also, 25 years ago were women being sponsored to join in? I know several women doing this now and most were sponsored to join. That feels like it changes the game to me. It's no longer your devil begotten old pyramid when the women at the "top" willingly sponsor others and then drop to the bottom again and start again after they receive. 11% is no longer accurate.you really really do want to find a way that this is all good, don't you?

The willingness of women to sponsor others and start over is sweet of them, probably. It could still be cover, since they've gained more by their brief stay at the top of the pyramid than it can ever cost them to take another trip through it. Remember, the math works both ways - no individual is going to lose the same amount that a winner will reap. It's just that there are a lot more players than winners.

But sure, despite your fear that we're all hateful and trying to go all lawyerly on you, most posters haven't been focused on disparaging the reasons that people want to participate. Many do, however, question whether pure motives "change the game" as you feel they do, when the game itself is harmful. Personally, I engage in plenty of activities that some might consider harmful. To me, the reason that's acceptable is that I'm willing to and interested in understanding the risks vs. the appeal of the activity. You seem to start down that path in some of your posts, but then you wander off into attacking the validity of even raising those questions or the motives of those asking them (" The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience" and "Are the nay saying writers here paid by the right wing to scream and holler about anything on the internet that pushes the edges of normal for society? Are you internet trolls?" - just for example).

A lot of Wacco posts are focused on issues that are bad for the community, or are attempts at getting people to think more critically about their world and their actions. This fits right into that tradition. It's rare that the O.P. will acknowledge the validity of any critiques, or show much sign of rethinking their position. Not being in the targeted demographic of these circles, I had little idea how widespread they seem to be. The information in the posts in this thread may help a lot of people avoid these questionable groups in their quests to find community and support.

Shandi

03-20-2014, 10:46 AM

I tried to research postings on circles, but these things are not posted, for obvious reasons, which you are already informed about.

Women have always been sponsored if they didn't have the money, and in my experience, most didn't have the loose change of $5,000 sitting around to gamble with. But of course, that word is not used, because that would be a clear violation of the circle intention, which is to mislead the unwitting invitees.

These offerings are done person to person, but unlike the old MLM style, this is not something to share openly with others. These invitations are done usually one on one, friend to friend, with a promise to "tell no one". That is, until you're "in", and then you better tell someone (a trusted friend) quick!

Hummingbird, if you are privileged to know several women doing this now, you're in a perfect position to step up, and gain the knowledge that the game has changed. I personally don't want the risk, but you may be the perfect person. At least, you will be able to get some first hand information from the women you know.

I really hope that your perceptions are right. Nothing would make me feel better about this discussion than to know that I was wrong. I really want to be wrong! You can help, even if you don't believe in rescuing. You can change the course of Wacco history!!!

Do you believe enough in the stand you've taken, in words, to step forward on the burning coals of the unknown? Or is it just rhetoric? Only you know what's in your heart. :heart:

I'm curious about recent rip-offs. Are there any new phase rip-off postings? Also, 25 years ago were women being sponsored to join in? I know several women doing this now and most were sponsored to join. That feels like it changes the game to me. It's no longer your devil begotten old pyramid when the women at the "top" willingly sponsor others and then drop to the bottom again and start again after they receive. 11% is no longer accurate.

PDines

03-20-2014, 11:45 AM

Hummingbird - I think you're projecting negative stories and judgments on this conversation and the people in it that have nothing to do with what we're actually saying. I don't think you're trying to understand what we're saying with empathy and curiosity, but instead you're assuming and negating in one easy step. I think you're looking for what to negate in what we say and who we are, not what to value and appreciate. I invite you to listen to what we actually say, and not presume we mean something else then attack us for that assumption.

I know that I bent over backwards to speak calmly and meet you where you are, to talk about facts and perceptions, to respond to your points. I never said you were the bad guy, ever. We're having a conversation here on a topic and I responded to the points that you made. That's what a conversation is. And still you can't see anything to be kind or gracious or appreciative to me about that. Nothing. Instead you make lashing non-factual broad negating attacks on me and others, or at least that's how it seems to me. Is that how you're modeling or creating the positive kind of conversation you want?

And I do see such deep dissonances in what you say. For instance - if these groups are so great, why didn't you ever give them your money when you were invited? How can you even report how great they are if you haven't chosen to be in one? How do you even know? And people have reported being ripped off. Why don't you care about them?

But I'm mostly struck by your attitude, which feels to me judgmental and demeaning, as if your way is the only right way, and you can stand in judgment of others with abandon -- without looking at the facts -- without caring about how people are feeling. If anyone is injured, they're not supposed to bring it up or try to warn others, or they're the problem. I find that approach disturbing, and I don't see how it would result in happy outcomes.

I agree with the premise of not making personal attacks and focusing instead on facts and perspectives, and have sought to walk that path. My perception is that most people here have been doing the same. Some people here have been a bit more negating in tone than my preference (for instance making broad statements by gender) but that to me has been relatively minor.

But I have to ask - do you really think that you have walked the path of being constructive in your communications? Look at your post below. To me, it's full of negating of others, as you stand on high. So why do you think you can judge in mean ways and no one can dare to disagree or they'll be attacked by you? To me, it is you that is bringing in the personal attack approach most of all.

So, if you want to have a respectful conversation that's based on facts and factual perceptions, not personal attacks, then I invite you to model that in the ways that you participate.

I'd also like to add that, to me, there's a big difference between FEAR and CAUTION. Certainly we don't want to be driven by baseless fear. However, there are real dangers in the world, and being ignorant or naive about them doesn't make them go away. Caution can help us stay alive and take care of ourselves. Do you really live your life without recognizing that some choices might be harmful to yourself and others? Really?

But the key point that I don't feel that you've heard is that many of us are open to lots of ways of innovating. That's delightful. We just object to people's money being taken based on lies and false pretenses. That doesn't seem to bother you. In fact, you seem to negate anyone who would dare to object to that. The victim is the problem? They should just be happy about being ripped off? You really seem to be saying that over and over again. But why, if we're not supposed to be directive of others, are you being directive that people should feel that way? Why do you have no room for how they actually feel?

Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? I suggest the current model has evolved. Right now. Not the past. Of course you will make an effort to make me a bad guy. From where I stand the only posts in this thread that carry reason and compassion are those suggesting the narrow, panicked ones let it rest. All I see in many posts are hatred and anger dressed up as "I'm here to help" or so-called justice.

Before I read this thread I had thought little of the circles, decided to let them be not something I would join. After reading some of the writing from the the lynch mob, I see that what these women are doing is a huge threat to the status quo. This I fully and whole heartedly support. This is not because I am uneducated in these regards like you work hard to illustrate. Nor am I immoral.

So, I thank you for actively placing words in my mouth again…. The word for word lawyer style argumentation makes for not really trying to understand what is truly being said. What do you have to lose in letting your perspective rest for even a wee moment? Obviously not $5000. Needing the last word, makes for poor listening. What IS being said here by folks who disagree with you? What is between the lines? Not what do you need to prove here in order to make your point, but what is really being said? How are you being asked to stretch your mind?

I guess what I suggest is that there are no victims or perpetrators here. If we are commited to someone being the bad guy. We are just as commited to the world being full of potential victims. I'm not in that party. No way. I don't support or condone any behavior that forces any one to stay in the roll of victim. The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience than any thing they point the finger at.

Many of us are commited to being victims, perpetrators, or rescuers. The rescuers are completely lost with no one to save. What would you lose if the women in these circles were given responsibility for their own choices. Who would you rescue?

Again, I have never participated in these circles. I have never joined a pyramid, but have been invited to plenty. One offered cashing in on some rocking vibrators. Difficult to resist! I only support pushing the edge, I don't think money is bad, nor is earning it. I just think it's funny how rigid your opinion is. How limited and tired. Makes me yawn. I can hear the grand parents hollerin'. "Thats not the way we made money when I was a kid, I had to shovel shit for a nickel a day."

If you don't want to join the circles, please join me in not participating. Just please get of the high horse.

A total tangent, or perhaps not:

When I go to cross at main street and Hwy12 on fridays around lunch time, I cross on the side of the street that does not host the man saluting. I realize that he must have invested something big in his ideas about right and wrong, perhaps a huge part of his heart. He came out to the street a couple of years ago, after the women in black, actively opposing their peaceful stance. I realize that everything he stands for is not wrong and offensive, but because of the apparent anger he holds in delivering his message I avoid him and send him love from a distance. I'm sure there is a reason he holds so tightly to his ideas. He appears to carry trauma from a war in his body and actions. It's sad.

Since you ask the question if I'm have some dark past with these women's circles, I have to ask... Are the nay saying writers here paid by the right wing to scream and holler about anything on the internet that pushes the edges of normal for society? Are you internet trolls? In all honesty, I know you are not, but some of the rhetoric does start to appear redundant and fear based.

Fear based. Not where I want to live. No thank you.

hummingbird

03-20-2014, 11:47 AM

I believe one should only spend what you can afford to lose. So I won't accept your offer to join. I just think it's cool for these women to go against the grain. More than that I think is awful for people to be so commited to the vilification of these circles or anything that you are not intimately connected with for that matter. I also think its terrible to compare rape with pyramids. I give up. So now I know. This is where I come to see judgement and the victim/perp/rescuer model demonstrated fully. Also, I don't have any desire to break down the play by play of my perspective here. I only offered it as an gift. It's clear that you all are clear in your views and you feel good about them. Take what you like, leave the rest.

Its funny how quickly we all want to take personal choice away from one another. Its as if we have the answers and the rest of the folks are drooling fools.

In speaking with the man on the street, I didn't experience fear, only a recognition that to get through to his heart would take way more effort than I was prepared to give. Feels similar to my experience here, sometimes it's easier to just walk on the other side of the street. More satisfying too. One of the ladies has such a lovely smile.

PDines

03-20-2014, 02:12 PM

For those who are interested, I think this article does a good job of exploring this topic.

Controversy Over Women's Gifting Circles: Blessing or Disaster?
https://ignitechannel.com/articles/culture/controversy-over-womens-gifting-circles-blessing-or-disaster/

EXCERPTS In our community, particularly among West Coast burners, gifting circles and those who are opposed are blowing on the embers of controversy, resulting in singed friendships and relationships. We are becoming a community divided over these circles.

In preparing to write this article, I treaded through countless blogs and social media posts representing both positive and negative viewpoints regarding gifting circles. From the positive side, I was showered with beautiful phrases and ideas like the circle is “for sister goddesses in need of female connection and spiritual healing”, and it is “an empowerment bridge designed to forge the way for womankind to rise up and shine in all her glory.” That sounds great to me! I’m all for women’s empowerment, sisterhood and spiritual healing.

However, this language disguises the fact that in order for some women to be empowered, others must be disempowered.
(She then describes the pyramid math)

…

Causes for concern:

* Paying for connection. Most gifting circles offer healing and/or connection with other women as a reason to join. “Why on earth are my friends all of a sudden charging me to connect with them?” said one responder on a blog about gifting circles.

* Gifting Circles have nothing to do with gifting. Many people join gifting circles with the expectation of a return. Here’s a comment made by a new recruit: “I'm really excited about paying off my student loans with this!” In gifting cultures like the one I’ve experienced at Burning Man, we give gifts with no expectation of a return. If you’re hoping for a return on your initial $5000 investment, then you’re gambling, not gifting. (She then has a sign from Burning Man describing what an actual gifting culture is -- e.g. no expectation of return.)

* There are countless reports of circles ripping apart friendships and relationships. Why? (She describes how this happens) …

* The financial risks of receiving nothing in return for the initial “gift” are not always clearly accepted or understood. ...

* Some circles use manipulative language to convince people to join or stay. One woman who shared concerns was told “we’ll help you work through your blocks around receiving in order to continue into your process of elevating into abundance consciousness.” In other words, you don’t understand because you aren’t as elevated as we are, yet. We can help you rise to our level. “They’ll tell you that you are in your head and not your heart, and that you’re just in poverty consciousness…You’re considered not conscious or intelligent enough or afraid to evolve…If you bring forward what you find online about [circles], you’re told it’s put there to disempower you.”

* Flawed concept of abundance mentality. People in circles “manifest abundance” by taking money from other people. They’re passing money up to the next person in the circle. Some who make money from the scheme filter it back in, but what happens when the people who’ve just gotten their big payout can’t find anyone else to join? They leave the circle and take the money with them. At some point, the whole group runs out of new people to tap. The circles apply abundance mentality to a system that is rooted in the scarcity economy, a system that makes people rich by taking from others.

***

Of course, there are many, many gifting circles out there. They are not all the same. Some are led by people who set out with the conscious intent to scam and manipulate. Some are led by people who don’t recognize their own intent to scam and manipulate. Some are led by people who have good intentions. If you are thinking of joining a circle, it’s always wise to do your own research instead of just listening to others who are giving you financial advice, even when those people are your true friends who have the best of intentions.

...

(It also has lots of people's comments.)

Dixon

03-20-2014, 02:54 PM

just doesn't seem so compassionate to me. it seems like an accusation of heartless sociopathy.
Hmmm...are you presupposing that an accusation of heartless sociopathy in this situation would be inaccurate? Do you have a stereotyped image of what a heartless sociopath looks like--an image that doesn't include "spiritual" white women in "goddess" clothing, spouting New Agey hogwash as they bilk their sisters out of $5000 each? If there is reason to believe that sociopathy is playing a role here (hint: it is), isn't it more compassionate to address it for the good of the community, than to soothe our own distress (and avoid being called a "witch-hunter") by avoiding that discussion?

hummingbird

03-20-2014, 03:37 PM

This was sent to me by someone named Sandy. Feels pretty hostile. So well done. Continue onward with the gallant efforts to "educate." Choosing not to go further in this discussion is based on noticing when there are ears to hear and where there are not. When folks are so upset like in this post there is no need to discuss further. So I will take my perspective away. You can continue to talk amongst yourselves. Pat yourselves on the back.

Please don't email me personally with something that you would not post publicly. Inquiry is welcome. But not rants like this. Sandy, you do not know me or my motives, nor I you. I am offended by your comments. So It is agreed. To the other side of the street I go. Where the smiles make it all the way to the eyes. I sense that you need not worry about becoming friends with me.... Thank you for making it personal.

So rape and women's circles are one in the same.....carry on folks.

Respectfully,
Hummingbird

Below is Sandy's email:

[Copy of private email removed. It is serious breach of netiquette to post private communications publicly. I also urge everybody to use extreme discretion when choosing to write to someone privately about their public posts, especially if there is any reason to think they may not welcome your communication. You can either post your comments publicly and write to them privately and ask their permission to send your full comments. Something like: "I disagree with what you have posted and I'd like send you my frank thoughts. Is that OK with you?". Thank you for your cooperation - Barry]

LaughingDarling

03-20-2014, 06:15 PM

Hi everyone. I have not yet responded to this thread until now because I have tendinitis and cannot type (using voice recognition software is a long exhausting and painful process). But I am committed to this public conversation and I have a lot to offer as I just recently chose to leave a "Women's Wisdom Circle." I was involved for many months and have first-hand experience to share.

I would like to mention that because this conversation is currently in response to the thread that Barry started last August, some of you may not have seen this important letter my partner Jeff posted: https://www.waccobb.net/<wbr>forums/showthread.php?103612-<wbr>Reclaiming-Women-s-Circles&<wbr>highlight=Jeff+Huling&p=<wbr>176487#post176487 (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?103612-Reclaiming-Women-s-Circles&highlight=Jeff+Huling&p=176487#post176487). If you have not had a chance to read this letter, please do so! It addresses many of the concerns and questions people have posted here.

I joined circle because I thought that it was a sacred underground alternative women's economy. I thought that everything my dear friend who invited me told me about the circle was accurate. I trusted her and the many other women I knew who were involved (just as they had trusted the women who invited them, and those women trusted the women who invited them, etc). I trusted that the detailed 15 page "Official Women's Wisdom Circle 2013 Guidelines" were created from well intentioned experienced "senior sisters" who were committed to creating true financial empowerment and abundance using a well developed sustainable model that had been supporting women for decades.

I was told many times verbally and in written word: "Our circle is NOT a hierarchy, it is a circle. There is no one at the "top" or at the "bottom", unlike a "pyramid." Each woman cycles through every position on Circle until she is complete with receiving and then she steps off. We have a small, finite number of women, and everyone has exactly the same opportunity!"

Then, when inviting another woman to join this delightful journey with me, she told me that this system was far from sustainable and empowering. That the financial design of these current circles purposely makes sure that each woman does NOT have "exactly the same opportunity".

I did not believe this information was true until I took several hours to write out all the numbers myself. I saw with my own eyes that the financial structure is based on exponential growth and therefore makes it literally impossible for the majority of the women involved to ever receive monetary gifts. I was shocked, heartbroken and hurt.

This is a fact that cannot be disputed because the math tells the truth. If anyone on this thread has not seen the numbers for themselves, I encourage you to take a few minutes to watch this slideshow: https://www.<wbr>slideshare.net/AmberBieg/<wbr>gifting-circles8513 (https://www.slideshare.net/AmberBieg/gifting-circles8513). It shows exactly how the financial aspect of these circles are designed, and this is crucial to understand.

I wanted to believe that because women could rejoin or be on more than one circle, that somehow the infinite amount of women required could be attained or "circled through". However, I realized that because the difference between women receiving and the total number of women involved is already so large - even if every dessert reentered - it would only create a slightly larger population in the ever increasing number of women required to make circles split (which, as the guidelines state clearly, is the point of these women's circles - to have consistent "forward <wbr>momentum"). And, each woman who is "gifting", may not be expecting, but is sincerely hoping to receive eight times what she gave. So each of these reentering desserts would be another person waiting to receive more money later, only obtained by a much larger amount of women joining.

When I did my research I found out that this structure is what is called an endless chain scheme, pyramid scheme or ponzi scheme. This financial design is, was, and always has been, designed and started by con-artists (just like all the preceding versions of these schemes many others here have referred to). And con-artists have one intention only – to steal people's money.

The current version of this scheme is more brilliant than any scam before it - because you do not actually get something for nothing. You must invest a great deal of time, energy, heart, openness, commitment and courage to be engaged in the latest versions of these circles. You need to be on weekly 1 hour calls, plus a weekly 30 minute coaching call with your dessert leader. When you get to the entrée position, you then need to support the dessert on even more weekly calls and be available to lead calls when the dessert is not able to. If you finally make it to the dessert position, you need to learn how to lead a group of women through weekly conference calls as well as individual coaching calls. You need to write new creative meditations for every call and help incoming women manifest $5000, and encourage them to invite other women authentically into the circle. When a new woman wants to join, you need to lead an guest call, then an introduction call and an invitation training call. Being in circle is no small commitment! The women's support group aspect of these circles are definitely a "living workshop".

I received many positive benefits through being a part of this women's circle. And I have heard from some women that they gained invaluable skills, growth and learning that they would have paid more than $5k for. Through my participation, I realized how much women in our community have been seeking the consistent support, sisterhood, and growth that is shared through the authentic sharing and commitment of the structured weekly calls. The intention to believe in one another, use the law of attraction to blossom and manifest our dreams, is beautiful and much needed in our culture.

BUT, that does not make it okay for the truth of the financial structure to be hidden. No matter how much benefit we receive through the community of our sisterhood, this financial structure is still out of integrity. No matter how much good intention and integrity is within the hearts of the women in these circles, the financial structure underpinning it is, and always will be, a harmful scheme. And, as long as women think it is okay to continue participating because of all the amazing benefit they are receiving from the women's support group aspect, then the scheme continues to grow and more and more women are lied to and loose their their money. If women truly wanted to empower each other financially they would create a sustainable system that gives equal opportunity for all women to receive more monetary abundance.

The women's support group aspect of these circles CAN be created and sustained WITHOUT the financial scam. We can create amazing women circles that offer all of this and more, without the fraudulent financial structure. I believe putting energy and attention on creating positive alternative women support groups will help us reclaim our women circles.

I am grateful that some folks have written in about the positive aspects of circle, because I believe it is very important to understand why women choose to be apart of this. I am also grateful for the deep genuine concern that has been expressed through this forum and the awareness of the sharp thorn that is tearing apart our conscious community and leaving thousands of women in debt. I only wish that I had this information before I joined.

Lastly, there are various support groups through Facebook and otherwise that are helping women heal from the process of finding out the truth. I am happy to share this information with women who need it. Here is an excellent article to help those who are trying to recover their money and their trust: https://www.sondrarose.com/<wbr>extracting-yourself-from-a-<wbr>womens-gifting-circle-with-<wbr>integrity-and-grace (https://www.sondrarose.com/extracting-yourself-from-a-womens-gifting-circle-with-integrity-and-grace).

Shandi

03-20-2014, 08:11 PM

I'm still getting responses to my personal email sent out to friends asking if they had experience in gifting circles.

One woman told me today that it was like a "sinkhole" pulling everyone down. It went on for about 9 months, and people were having difficulty bringing others in. It finally disbanded with even the leader not making a profit. My friend said it was so draining, and went on for so long.

Another friend said that she was invited to speak about her business, so the other women could support her. She said that the whole time she was telling them about it, they were talking amongst themselves and not paying any attention to her. They lost a her as a customer from this rude behavior. So, at least she didn't lose any money. She just felt very disappointed, and wanted nothing to do with them. She was one of the lucky ones!

kpage9

03-21-2014, 12:06 AM

Shandi, I believe the big "we", along with other sweeping generalities, misses the hard fact that there is no one overarching truth. There are, confoundingly, lots of them, all at once.

Kathy,

if it's o.k. (with the swindlee)to be swindled if (he or she thinks) higher values are being served, than it must be o.k. (with the swindler) to swindle if I perceive that higher values are being served. Yep. But these two realities--of the swindler and the swindlee--do not belong in an if-then sentence, unless you're appealing to the Grand Opinionator. I mean....with whom is it alleged to be "ok"?

We are all vulnerable to predators, and they know just what we want/need to hear. Some of them even take courses in "mind control" or neuro-linquistic programming. Some are just very good at sales. That's really what it comes down to.....sales through maniupulation. Because if the truth was visible, we might not buy.

I never did the EST training, but know people who did. I've only used a live psychic once, and pretty much trust my own instincts. But I've been manipulated out of large sums of money, in my prior business. I had no knoiwledge or training in contract law. Once I learned the moves of one trickster, I tried to warn a large hotel, like the Hyatt, that this person would leave in the middle of the night, without paying his bill. They didn't believe me, and may have thought I was a bit off, but he did just as I said he would.

Whenever a friend is about to spend money on a service, I try to make sure that she's informed about the details of what will be provided, and the total cost, along with a written agreement. Here I have to say if i were the friend in question i'd feel a little patronized. I've never had anyone warn me about things, so I do believe it's a great thing to do for people we care about.

Only 2 days ago, I saw a dead branch hanging in a neighbor's tree. It was about 5' long, and the large end pointed straight down....above the path they use every day to their front door. I pointed it out to them, and the woman said "Oh thank you, we'll take that down right away". Guess what.....it's still hanging! It will fall eventually, with a strong wind, and hopefully no one will be underneath it. I wouldn't chance it myself. There are enough things to be aware of, without inviting trouble.

I do agree that we all seek connection, but it can come through so many avenues at hardly any cost at all. I would advise anyone who feels the need to connect, to look at volunteering for something that resonates with you. People who sign up for gifting circles aren't asking your advice. This can bring meaningful connection along with oxytocin, and even improved health!

and all the foregoing red opinions belong to a lefter-than-socialist! (i sound like a libertarian, to my ears anyway, in this...)

kathy