:hmmm: There is a beautiful healthy apple orchard located next to Apple Blossom School on Watertrough Rd.,Sebastopol,Ca. This is a older apple orchard with many trees subject now to being cut down only to be replaced by another grape/wine vineyard ! We are surely destroying what Sebastopol is all about it's beautiful apple orchards , bringing us healthy apple products for everyone.The wonderful apple blossoms every spring which I grew up with and loved and enjoyed will no longer be growing soon due to the greedy money hungry wineries.
People used to worry about the apple growers spraying their apples and the chemicals getting into the water system of the school next door. These apples are not being sprayed now. Wake up Apple Blossom School- you have something now going on which is a future nightmare for everyone attending or working at your wonderful campus,and all your neighbors will also be affected.
POISON in the ground,POISON in the air ,everywhere. I know first hand what these winery producers say, and what they do to produce their "product". They do not care how it effects the environment or our health. They begin poisoning the ground first preparing it for growing. After they plant the spraying begins ,and the extensive use of "Round Up" does not disappear.It goes into water systems.
I have had Asthma ever since the Dutton ranch winery began their spraying when they put in grapes next to our property in Freestone 12 yrs. ago. I will never forget that horrible smell which came into our home.I looked out the window,to see a hired farm worker dressed in a full white jump suit with a hat and mask covering his whole head,in a small vehicle carrying tanks full of poisonus liquids . This is what he was freely spraying everywhere. Even though there was a large field between him and our farm it was coming into our home. Since then we have lost several pets from cancer.
PLEASE STOP THIS STUPID DESTRUCTION OF APPLE TREES AND STOP THIS VINYARD!!
Alexandra
04-19-2013, 11:53 PM
I have 2 children at Apple Blossom and share the concern of many parents and teachers there about the adjacent beautiful orchard being converted to a vineyard. We have contacted Supervisor Carillo's office and spoken with his staff member Susan. She was very surprised to hear that the house had already been taken down and cleared away. She said that she wasn't sure that they had a permit to demolish it. She also said that the vineyard does not yet have a permit and they are concerned about "drift" from future spraying affecting the schools. There are actually 4 schools next to this property. Apple Blossom and Orchard View Schools border it and there are two other schools directly across the street. Paul Hobbs is the one behind this. All parties need to band together, work with the appropriate agencies and stop this from happening. Spraying pesticides literally a few feet away from where hundreds of children are is not acceptable. I was told as well by another parent that there are some water issues as well.
:hmmm: There is a beautiful healthy apple orchard located next to Apple Blossom School on Watertrough Rd.,Sebastopol,Ca. This is a older apple orchard with many trees subject now to being cut down only to be replaced by another grape/wine vineyard ! We are surely destroying what Sebastopol is all about it's beautiful apple orchards , bringing us healthy apple products for everyone.The wonderful apple blossoms every spring which I grew up with and loved and enjoyed will no longer be growing soon due to the greedy money hungry wineries. People used to worry about the apple growers spraying their apples and the chemicals getting into the water system of the school next door. These apples are not being sprayed now. Wake up Apple Blossom School- you have something now going on which is a future nightmare for everyone attending or working at your wonderful campus,and all your neighbors will also be affected. POISON in the ground,POISON in the air ,everywhere. I know first hand what these winery producers say, and what they do to produce their "product". They do not care how it effects the environment or our health. They begin poisoning the ground first preparing it for growing. After they plant the spraying begins ,and the extensive use of "Round Up" does not disappear.It goes into water systems.I have had Asthma ever since the Dutton ranch winery began their spraying when they put in grapes next to our property in Freestone 12 yrs. ago. I will never forget that horrible smell which came into our home.I looked out the window,to see a hired farm worker dressed in a full white jump suit with a hat and mask covering his whole head,in a small vehicle carrying tanks full of poisonus liquids . This is what he was freely spraying everywhere. Even though there was a large field between him and our farm it was coming into our home. Since then we have lost several pets from cancer. PLEASE STOP THIS STUPID DESTRUCTION OF APPLE TREES AND STOP THIS VINYARD!!
sebastacat
04-21-2013, 12:30 AM
Fool me once, shame on you. But fool me twice........well, you know the rest.
Yet, that seems to be precisely what has happened in the case of the latest vineyard "conversion" proposal, as reported by Alexandra, of the apple orchard located next to Apple Blossom School and bordered by several other schools as well, potentially placing the children who attend these institutions of learning in harm's way of the powerful chemicals used to keep those grapevines happy and healthy.
Who would have thought that anyone would even want to attempt to carry out a vineyard conversion right next to a school
after the hullabaloo that ensued during west county's (and Sonoma County's) most infamous vineyard conversion which took place a couple of years ago, to the horror and dismay of scores of west county residents?
Not me. But then again, maybe that can be attributed to an overabundance of naivete on my part.
It seems that yet again, the west county may become the victim of an unpopular and questionable vineyard conversion, complete with a possibly permitless residential tear-town to be followed soon by rapacious tree-ripping for all to see.
Yet, the staff member didn't seem to know anything about the residence being torn down until Alexandra called and informed her.
I have a hard time believing that, but I'll give her, albeit reluctantly, the benefit of the doubt --
this time.
The apple blossom parade is being held in downtown Sebastopol as I write this, which seems fitting, since I live next door to property which belongs to my parents which is home to one of the last remaining working apple orchards on the Gravenstein Highway strip.
Unfortunately, while I should be out celebrating with the blossoms, after hearing about the destruction which is being proposed, I've been placed in the uncomfortable position of reminiscing about a west county that once was and is quickly becoming no longer -- and trying to hold on to it for as long as I can before it is no more. I have a feeling that I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I remember well when the "right to farm" initiative was placed on the ballot that the proponents of that ordinance exhorted us to embrace vineyards since they required less water AND less fungicidal and pesticidal spraying than apples. That argument was weak then, and it is even weaker now when considered in its proper context several years later.
Who can forget the incident where a vineyard worker sprayed a vineyard right next to a Forestville school?
I remember well the outrage expressed by several west county residents at a series of meetings held in Occidental regarding the alarming number of vineyard conversions which were occurring at a dizzying pace.
Their outrage was well placed. I submit that NO amount of agricultural pesticidal or fungicidal spraying should be allowed near ANY school. To allow this is unconscionable.
Vineyard conversion is an ugly business, and I truly feel for those who will be impacted by this one.
My sympathies are non generational. I feel sorry for all those school children whose idyllic vision of Sonoma County agriculture is about to be shattered when they witness a vineyard conversion in progress.
And I feel sorry, too, for the elderly west county residents who are so upset to see yet even more apple trees being yanked and destroyed, making them regret and pine for that one last remnant of a bygone era to be saved.
I now have some pointed questions for our county officials: Now that you know about this, what are you going to do about it? Will you allow a vineyard conversion to take place next to a school? And if after a thorough investigation by all affected departments is done it is found that laws were indeed broken, ordinances were violated and that the proper permits were not obtained, will you be proactive and take action, or will you just look the other way and shirk your responsibilities as guardians of this county and give the persons responsible a slap on the wrist and a free pass?
I, along with many others, I'm sure, will be wondering, waiting -- and watching.
P.S.: Does anyone know what's going on down at the TLC Child and Family Services building located across the street from Andy's Produce? Last week, several apple trees were removed, and today when I drove by, there was a crane, a bulldozer and a heavy-duty dump truck sitting out in front. Smells like another vineyard to me. Someone PLEASE say it isn't so.....
ajay
04-22-2013, 07:36 AM
I am having a difficult time understanding why this is even an issue at all. Apples require far more chemicals than grapes. Even organic sprays drift and can cause respiratory irritation. Grapes rarely require any application of insecticides while apples regularly require fungicides and insecticides. Spraying of apples requires spray rigs that force the chemicals high into the treetops which increases the potential for drift.
If you owned the orchard would you continue to farm it even if it lost money? Sebastopol now competes with apple growers in Washington and China. It is next to impossible for an apple grower to make a living in this county.
Do you buy only apple products that are made from apples grown in Sebastopol? Have you spoken to the owner of the orchard and offered him or her money to help offset his or her mounting losses? Have you organized a community event to help subsidize the farmer who loses money every year? If you enjoy the blossoms so much, maybe you should offer to purchase the orchard and then donate it to the Sonoma County Land Trust. Just exactly what are you doing to help the apple growers? Perhaps you would prefer to see a subdivision instead of a vineyard.
Without the wine industry, Sonoma County would have been bankrupt in 2011. Thousands of people are employed by wineries and grape growers. Many children of parents that are employed in the wine industry attend Apple Blossom School.
This is an agricultural community. It is the farmer’s right to plant whatever the law allows on their land. There are no redwood trees being removed nor is there any habitat being destroyed.
Folks like you are usually long on complaints but very short on viable alternatives.
sebastacat
04-22-2013, 10:59 AM
Now, Ajay.....
Can you HONESTLY say that grapes don't require much spraying when we all know that their bane is POWDERY MILDEW? And, if powdery mildew gets a foothold in a vineyard, it can wipe out the grapes in a matter of days. What do you spray to rid yourself of this scourage? Water? I doubt it. More like Rubigan, Systhane, Eagle, Rally........or maybe something even more powerful. I could go on and on.
And if grapes don't require much spraying, then why are there several agricultural supply companies sprinkled around the county which cater mostly to grape-growers? Somehow, I don't think they'd be in business if they were losing money.
You say in your post that "there are no redwood trees being removed nor is there any habitat being destroyed." How do you know what's being destroyed? Maybe those two things aren't being "destroyed," but something else -- a community.
Who can forget the infamous vineyard conversion in the middle of Gravenstein Highway North in the fall of 2010 which resulted in what amounted to a replication of the Oklahoma Dust Bowl? The owners of the property did not even have so much as one water truck on the property initially to quell the dust; yet, the property sits right next to a state highway. Cars were dodging each other; it is a miracle that no one was hurt -- or killed. It is only after complaints were made that a water truck was finally brought in.
You say that "without the wine industry, Sonoma County would have been bankrupt in 2011."
Let me take this opportunity to thank you for so effectively pointing out the dangers of what can possibly happen when a county becomes an agricucultural monoculture.
For the record, I grow my own apples, and my orchard employs several men during harvest time to pick them, and the apples are sold by a long-time apple grower who also sells them on the retail market locally. Yes, I do believe that I am indeed doing my part to promote agricultural diversity in this county -- and I hope to be able to do it for many more years to come. By the way, my two neighbors sell their delicious apples on the retail market as well.
Finally, I doubt seriously that a "subdivision" would be allowed where the present apple orchard now sits, due to zoning restrictions, water restrictions, etc. But, yes, I will state that in some situations, I would definitely prefer houses over grapes. Take the site of the proposed Best Family Winery at the corner of Highway 116 and Occidental Road. The original zoning allowed two family homes to be built there before the County of Sonoma, in its infinite wisdom, decided to put the land back into agriculture, even though the parcel size did not meet their own legal requirement.
What are we going to get now instead? A brand-new four-story building PROJECTING STRAIGHT UP IN THE AIR, higher than that spray boom of which you speak could ever hope to reach, along with a boutique vineyard surrounding it.
Sorry, but that's not exactly what comes to mind when I think of the words "aesthetically pleasing."
Finally, I hope that the many parents of children who attend Apple Blossom School -- and even the children themselves -- will band together and rally their elected officials to stop this vineyard conversion from occurring next to their school.
I have always considered schools to be one of the last bastions of comfort and safety for our children.
Now lets see if our elected officials do, too.
Barry
04-22-2013, 03:36 PM
P.S.: Does anyone know what's going on down at the TLC Child and Family Services building located across the street from Andy's Produce? Last week, several apple trees were removed, and today when I drove by, there was a crane, a bulldozer and a heavy-duty dump truck sitting out in front. Smells like another vineyard to me. Someone PLEASE say it isn't so.....
It isn't so. :waccosun:
They are replanting their gravenstein orchard, which had ailing trees. The Dutton family is contributing the work and the trees, and the County is contributing the permit fees with a fee waiver (approved by Efren) on Tuesday.
MamaBird
04-22-2013, 03:56 PM
As a very concerned parent of one of the schools surrounding this orchard, namely Sunridge, the school directly downhill (runoff) and down wind (perfect line up while the spraying is going on) from there.....we need help organizing!! Our school was just received a grant from Fish and Wildlife to create a natural habitat on the campus for birds, butterflies, fresh water critters, wildlife, etc and we have been working hard recreating it as such and are dedicated to its renewal. This vineyard would be devastating for so many reasons!!! not to mention, do we really need more grapes??? bring on some other organic agriculture that feeds folks good food!
We have been discussing it and we ABSOLUTELY are against it. Ideally we would like to make a law that only allows organic agriculture practices anywhere near a school in this county....but we will start with this! We know that there are many concerned and involved citizens in this county and we are hoping for advice and assistance on how to organize and fight this effectively!
Any advice or feedback appreciated
dominus
04-22-2013, 04:04 PM
Not all apple trees are sprayed. Taking any number of trees out including redwoods disturbs established eco systems. Wildlife and birds are required to find new breeding territory and food sources as they are displaced. In order for that to happen, they must encroach upon established territory belonging to other wildlife and birds which creates even greater stress. Those vineyards which are fenced, including some with barbed wire, obstruct migration corridors.
Sprays are used (Napa county alone uses over 2 million tons of insecticides, pesticides, fungicides and herbicides every year.) Run off can occur, depleting top soil and contaminating water ways. Aquifers are at risk of being depleted during serious droughts.
It's noisy and industrial. It creates jobs but such jobs are exacted at a high price to the land and the life that depends on it for sustenance. Individual land owner's rights shouldn't trump the greater public good in the 21st century. It's an antiquated and short-sighted mantra which doesn't hold up given the grave environmental assault our planet is under. I've heard the argument that in the lifetime of the earth over 90% of the planet's species are extinct. However, human beings are hastening their own extinction with their selfish behavior. When is it enough grapes already??
Dixon
04-22-2013, 05:12 PM
It is the farmer’s right to plant whatever the law allows on their land.
I'd put it a little more strongly: It is the farmers' right to plant whatever they want on their land, regardless of whether the law allows it.
Having said that, I'll also add that I find wine snobs pathetic. Alcohol, a drug highly prized by those who feel (wrongly) that they weren't born stupid enough and need some chemical stupidity enhancement, is far more destructive than virtually all the illegal drugs. If I could make it disappear from the planet, I would do so without hesitation.
Alexandra
04-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Hello All,
We spoke today with Susan from Supervisor Carillo's office. It turns out that a demolition permit was obtained to take down the house/barn. The Vineyard permit has not been finalized yet. We were told that there are concerns being discussed regarding "Drift" of pesticides to the surrounding schools as well as water concerns.
The schools are starting to collaborate as referenced in Mama Bird's post. The post by Dominus is very appreciated as it simply and clearly states some of the advantages of an orchard over a vineyard. Ideally, this property would be turned into a Wildlife habitat to compliment what is happening immediately across the road at Sunridge.
This is a unique situation where numerous schools both directly border the property and are also just across the two lane road. I don't know of another area quite like this where so many children are involved.
Perhaps, to mitigate some of the other negative actions that the Paul Hobbs winery has been responsible for in Sebastopol, he and his company would consider other options. Here is a link to the Press Democrat Article regarding some pending cases that are investigating the winery's actions. This is an issue that deserves research and thoughtful consideration. If children become ill, the price will be far greater for everyone in the long run.
I'd put it a little more strongly: It is the farmers' right to plant whatever they want on their land, regardless of whether the law allows it.
Having said that, I'll also add that I find wine snobs pathetic. Alcohol, a drug highly prized by those who feel (wrongly) that they weren't born stupid enough and need some chemical stupidity enhancement, is far more destructive than virtually all the illegal drugs. If I could make it disappear from the planet, I would do so without hesitation.
Hold on... The key issue here is not alcohol, nor monoculture, nor property rights. It's about introducing toxics that can not be contained to the property right next to several schools!
If the vineyard was legally bound to be farmed with strictly organic (or better yet, biodynamic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_agriculture)) methods I don't think there would be the outcry that exists and is certain to grow.
Barry
04-22-2013, 06:54 PM
I believe the decision makers on this issue is Paul Hobbs Winery and the Sonoma County Agriculture Commission.
Perhaps it would be helpful if the schools/parents involved start a petition and post a sample letter with the relevant email addresses. Of course you'd be most welcome to post it here including additional information as it becomes available.
Dixon
04-22-2013, 07:13 PM
Hold on... The key issue here is not alcohol, nor monoculture, nor property rights. It's about introducing toxics that can not be contained to the property right next to several schools!
You're right, Barry. My remarks were triggered by a particular comment in a previous post and were tangential.
Alexandra
04-22-2013, 07:15 PM
Hi Barry,
You are correct, this is what we were told by the Supervisor's office- to contact the Winery and the Agriculture Commission. We are drafting a petition and will forward to you ASAP. Thanks!
I believe the decision makers on this issue is Paul Hobbs Winery and the Sonoma County Agriculture Commission.
Perhaps it would be helpful if the schools/parents involved start a petition and post a sample letter with the relevant email addresses. Of course you'd be most welcome to post it here including additional information as it becomes available.
dominus
04-22-2013, 08:51 PM
The Ag commission has jurisdiction under the current ordinance which the California legislature enacted. This ordinance is the equivalent of an Environmental Impact Report. It lays out guidelines which grape growers must adhere to over the course of five years in developing a vineyard. CAL Fire, Fish and Wildlife, Sonoma County Regional Water Control, and Air Quality defer to the Ag Commission. The PRMD (Permit Resource Management Department) oversees the administration of development permits. If a parcel is zoned Ag and was grandfathered in before the ordinance, then it's agriculture designated, though the same guidelines will apply.
California has some of the most stringent guidelines for "pesticide drift" in the country which is a small comfort. Children are particularly vulnerable to chemical exposure. If Paul Hobbs was concerned about placing children at risk, he wouldn't be pursuing this project. An organized consortium of parents might find more receptivity dealing directly with the Ag commission.
sebastacat
04-23-2013, 12:14 AM
I went out to Watertrough Road this evening and visited the site in question.
As a result of this visit, I have a new list of concerns:
1. The subject existing apple orchard is MUCH LARGER than I had originally thought and is located next door to THREE schools and across the street from one other. Additionally, the properties are in much closer proximity to each other than I had imagined. Consequently, I believe that there are no mitigation measures which can be taken to stop the drift of pesticidal and fungicidal spray to all affected properties.
2. When the vineyard conversion is underway, i.e., trees removal in progress, topsoil excavated, gypsum and other soil amendments applied and mechanically cultivated into the soil matrix, the dust will be unbearable. Since the four schools in question and several miscellaneous residences located directly across the street are in direct proximity to the subject property, escaping this "dust bowl" will be impossible, and the dust will be unbearable. I know, as I speak from firsthand experience. Those of you with asthmatic conditions will need to wear masks or relocate temporarily -- but at whose expense?
Those of you with swimming pools can look forward to clogged filters and ruined pumps, which will cost you several hundred dollars -- if not more -- to fix, assuming they are fixable, and again, at whose expense?
And let's not forget the brown dust which will attach itself to every exterior inanimate object in its path and will inexplicably find its way into every nook and cranny of every building within a several-mile perimeter.
3. I have not seen any of our posters mention this one very important concern: TRAFFIC! And I don't mean conventional passenger-car traffic; I mean semi-truck traffic.
This will start in the early spring, when large tanker-trucks will begin delivering tankfuls of liquid chemical fertilizer to be deposited into the fertilizer-injection system to make those gravevines grow vigorously and produce copiously. And unfortunately, it will continue into the summer months as well.
In the fall, we can look forward to several hundred ADDITIONAL semi-truck trips per day when the grapes ripen and the harvest is underway. The grape-growers and wineries have admitted many times in the media that harvest time occurs at a frenetic pace.
When these trucks are filled to capacity, they, like their fertilizer-carrying counterparts, will weigh several thousand pounds -- if not tons -- making them dangerously heavy. I shudder to think what would happen if a child were to step accidentally in front of one of these trucks. There will be NO WAY for the poor driver to stop in time.
4. Immediately after harvest, several vineyards in Sonoma County apply gypsum (calcium sulphate) to
their soil. The purpose is two-fold: to leach excess fertilizer salts out of the root zone of the grapes and to add calcium to the soil for better production the following season. They count on the fall and winter rains to leach it into the soil matrix.
This, of course, will mean even MORE truck trips on an already narrow road AND, unfortunately, more dust!
I feel that it is both arrogant and audacious for anyone to even consider siting a vineyard right next to a school, let alone next to FOUR schools. Since the health, education, mental and physical well-being of the students will be impacted negatively by this extremely misguided project, I feel that it should be denied outright on its face.
And if our elected officials and hired staff over at the County of Sonoma care one wit about these children and their teachers and staff, they will voice loudly their dissatisfaction and do whatever they can in their power to see that the person proposing this project is discouraged from seeing it through to fruition and encouraged strongly and unmistakably to abandon it -- once and for all.
Dorothy Friberg
04-23-2013, 12:42 PM
Save the Gravensteins!!! Dorothy Friberg
I am having a difficult time understanding why this is even an issue at all. Apples require far more chemicals than grapes.
rekarp
04-23-2013, 01:12 PM
Here is a summary of pesticide usage in Sonoma County. A bit outdated but still informative: https://www.alternatives2toxics.org/pdfs/winegrape_rpt%2797.pdf
Also, the TOP 50 chemicals used on grapes in California in 2009:
https://www.pesticideinfo.org/DS.jsp?sk=29143
(https://www.pesticideinfo.org/DS.jsp?sk=29143)
I am having a difficult time understanding why this is even an issue at all. Apples require far more chemicals than grapes.
Kalia
04-23-2013, 03:45 PM
I went out to Watertrough Road this evening and visited the site in question.
As a result of this visit, I have a new list of concerns:
3. I have not seen any of our posters mention this one very important concern: TRAFFIC! And I don't mean conventional passenger-car traffic; I mean semi-truck traffic.
Well what _about_ that passenger-car traffic? As someone who often needs to use Water Trough Road during the hours when school lets out, it's evident that the parents don't have much concern about massive amounts of traffic since they pile up in both directions making it impossible to get by. If you want to talk about traffic mitigation, I'd much rather see all that energy going toward a way to make the TWICE DAILY pile-up less of a hassle rather than worrying about trucks a few times a month. How about a nice little electric shuttle to take the kids to an area where the parents' cars don't block traffic? How about more carpooling?
That being said, I agree that having a spray-intensive operation in the middle of a cluster of schools is a non-starter, and I hope the schools and the vineyard land owners can work out an agreement.
Kalia
podfish
04-23-2013, 04:11 PM
IAlcohol, a drug highly prized by those who feel (wrongly) that they weren't born stupid enough and need some chemical stupidity enhancement, is far more destructive than virtually all the illegal drugs. If I could make it disappear from the planet, I would do so without hesitation.Few people are truly born stupid enough, despite appearances. And if you restrict yourself to satisfying only your needs, stupidity won't limit your horizons much anyway.
I don't aspire to live in a world where all is sweetness, safety and positivity. Probably just as well given the available choices of worlds, too.
Alexandra
04-23-2013, 09:54 PM
Dear Community,
There is a solid alliance that is coming together extremely rapidly to address the situation of the pending Vineyard conversion adjacent to the 6 schools in the Atascadero Watershed. Support is growing exponentially, literally every few hours to address this situation. Please stay posted- we will be forwarding in the next few days, a more detailed update and information for those that want to join us. We will need everyone's participation.
Thanks so much.
estrella3210
04-23-2013, 10:58 PM
I am a parent of a preschooler at Tree House Hollow Preschool (a non-proffit nursery school on the Apple Blossom campus). I will make sure the parents at this school are informed and updated about the movement. Many of us are terribly concerned and I for one at the very least am willing to help get petitions signed so our children can have a voice.
Are there any petitions being drafted or already available for us to sign?
Please make it clear, via this tread, who to contact and how I can help so I can do something instead of just talking... (I'll call the Ag Commissioner tomorrow).
Thanks
Beenie Weenie
04-24-2013, 08:59 AM
Do you know the history of the property that the school sits on? You might be surprised to find that an orchard was there BEFORE the school was. When you build a school (or house) in an agricultural area you will be subject to agricultural activities. If you buy a house next to an airport do you demand that the airport be closed? Of course not. Reasonable people would know that there will be noise etc. Reasonable people would work with the airport to implement curfews and noise abatement procedures etc. Have you ever considered discussing your concerns with the owner of the orchard?
You don't seem to don’t give a damn about the owners. You seem to be just fine with destroying their lives. Do you really expect the them to do nothing with their land just because you feel that it isn’t being used for its highest best use? Well I strongly believe that your house is not the highest best use for your land so please remove it and plant an apple orchard.
Am I correct in assuming that in addition to being concerned about the environmental health of your local community you also care about the health of the planet? Do you have a cell phone, computer, solar panel, automobile, refrigerator, fluorescent light, wind powered generator, etc.? Your use of these is hastening the earth’s demise. Cellphones etc., contain rare earth metals. Use of rare earth metals, means more environmental degradation and human health hazards. Moreover, the refinement process for rare earth metals uses toxic acids and results in polluted wastewater. Of course since the wastewater isn’t being disposed of next to your child’s school, it doesn’t seem to matter much to you. The use of rare earth minerals creates a far greater environmental problem than removing an old orchard and replacing it with a vineyard.
It is absolutely imperative to protect our local environment. But, the way you are going about this is not the only way. The harder you push to completely stop this project, the harder the agricultural community (which is obviously the majority of the community in an area zoned for agriculture) will push back. This is a complex issue that requires thoughtful solutions. How about opening a dialogue with the landowner? I'm certain that common ground and a solution can be found. Not everyone will be happy with the solution but there is certainly a best possible outcome to be achieved.
sebastacat
04-24-2013, 11:18 AM
I am a member of the "agricultural community" of which you speak. However, since I grow apples and not grapes, maybe my opinion doesn't matter to you. Pardon me, I must have forgotten my place.
You ramble on and on and on about the extraction of metals from the earth and the resulting potential pollution of wastewater and its disposal. Important? Sure it is.
Are Energy-efficient appliances important? Sure are. In fact, I have some. I'm sure several others over in the west county do, too.
But are those things MORE important than spraying toxic chemicals right next door to hundreds of students? No, they are not. And I feel that you are bringing them up to shift the blame to others.
Sorry, but that won't work.
And what will happen when and if that toxic-of-all-toxics, methyl bromide, which is the fumigant of choice of many vineyard developers, is used to fumigate the soil RIGHT NEXT DOOR to these six schools? Do you give a "damn" that those students, teachers and staff will be breathing this noxious air-borne garbage? Do YOU give a "damn" about the children's health and lives, or do just give a "damn" about the seller's life and the buyer's bottom line? Tell me where you really stand.
And what about the copious amounts of chemical fertilizers which are injected into the irrigation systems of vineyards? Since that soil up there is sandy loam, it will have no trouble leaching into the groundwater and into people's wells. QUESTION: Are the schools dependent on well water as their water source? If they are, hundreds of people are going to be impacted by this. Is the water going to be tested? And, if it is found that fertilizer has indeed made its way into the water supply, who is going to be responsible?
Do you think that this is acceptable? Again, tell me where you really stand.
As someone who has had to endure life during a vineyard conversion, I can tell you that it is a horrible thing to endure, and I don't wish it on anyone -- especially if those nasty ol' winds decide to come up when all of that pulverized topsoil is sitting on top of the ground, just waiting to be blown into people's homes -- and inhaled into their lungs. I have suffered from asthma all of my life, and I don't wish that on anybody. Do you? Again, tell me where you really stand.
And, to put it bluntly, no grapevine, no bottle of wine and no one's bottom line is more important than the health of the citizens this county. Do you think it is? Again, tell me where you really stand.
If the owner gave "a damn," they wouldn't even have considered selling this piece of land to a potential vineyard owner in the first place. They would have instead sold it to someone whose plans were far more compatible with the six schools which operate next door. And the potential buyer of said property would have assessed the situation, seen that there are several schools located next door (with children), come to the conclusion that this was not the "best use" of the land, and proceeded to find another piece of property to site and develop his vineyard.
It's called being a good neighbor.
But perhaps that's just wishful thinking. Maybe I'm just old fashioned; maybe that's just a thing of the past.
Beenie Weenie
04-24-2013, 12:11 PM
Ah Sebastacat, you are propagating half-truths here. Methyl Bromide was phased out in 2005. MeBr is still allowed to be used in very specific, highly regulated situations. In fact, MeBr is rarely used in Sonoma County any longer. Here’s a link to the EPA site: https://www.epa.gov/ozone/mbr/
(https://www.epa.gov/ozone/mbr/)
Liquid fertilizer is very expensive hence a majority of grape growers care for their soil by utilizing cover crops that are tilled into the soil in the spring. Have you noticed that most vineyards nowadays leave half of the rows between vines untilled? This helps to encourage beneficial insects etc. and replenish nitrogen etc. Most fertilizers are applied dry at the base of each vine as needed. As a farmer you must know that excess vigor is the enemy of a grape vine so too much fertilizer is a bad thing.
How many acres of apples do you farm? 30, 40, 50? I respect your choice to farm whatever you like but I wonder if you are actually making a living off of your farming.
I can see by all of your posts that you have an irrational hatred of wine grape growers so I won't waste my time attempting to set the record straight on the many false things (like the use of MeBr) that you have posted. I’ll give you the last word. My only hope is that others on this thread will see the logic in working with the owners of the property rather than against them.
Barry
04-24-2013, 12:19 PM
... My only hope is that others on this thread will see the logic in working with the owners of the property rather than against them.
I'm also thinking that working with the owner (does Paul Hobbs Winery own the land or are they just leasing it?) to get a legal agreement to have the vineyard be certified organic. That won't address all problems (dust etc.) but it seems to me to be a what's required to be a "good neighbor".
Can someone working on this issue chime in about this?
Pace
04-24-2013, 12:39 PM
You people act as though a nuclear power plant was going to be installed next to the schools, talk about over reacting! After reading this thread it is pretty obvious that none of people here who are so vehemently against farmers converting apple orchards to vineyards are interested in addressing the issue of who will subsidize the farmers so that they CAN keep their orchards and still pay the bills? No one has offered to pay that farmer's bills for him or her have they?
Schools or no schools bills must be paid. So Sebastocat will you pay the farmer to keep his or her orchard? As indicated by your comments below in bold italic, you seem to feel very strongly that this person, whoever they are, is not a good neighbor but you don't really know his or her circumstances so how can you judge? How do you know the owner SOLD his or her land? Maybe he or she just leased it so that they wouldn't have to sell it and grapes were the only crop that would pay the bills?
"If the owner gave "a damn," they wouldn't even have considered selling this piece of land to a potential vineyard owner in the first place. They would have instead sold it to someone whose plans were far more compatible with the six schools which operate next door. And the potential buyer of said property would have assessed the situation, seen that there are several schools located next door (with children), come to the conclusion that this was not the "best use" of the land, and proceeded to find another piece of property to site and develop his vineyard."
dominus
04-24-2013, 01:01 PM
"Schools or no schools bills must be paid."
True. There is a strong, growing consensus about the danger that pesticides pose to children's health. What do you propose is a solution?
sebastacat
04-24-2013, 01:59 PM
Beenie Weenie....You're just a teenie-weenie bit mistaken.
The fertilizer culprit to which I refer is NOT NITROGEN, which makes things grow. It is PHOSPHATE FERTILIZER, which promotes strong roots and makes things PRODUCE. As I'm sure you know, phosphates making their way into groundwater and waterways is an extremely serious issue. Since this proposed project is located in close proximity to Atascadero Creek and across the street from rural residences AND next door to several schools and across the street from one other, this should be a MAJOR concern to all affected parcels which have their own water well.
Also, by your own admission, methyl bromide is still allowed in some situations. How do we know it won't be used here? Again, I ask: What assurances do those affected by this proposed project have? Scout's honor?
But more importantly, you failed to answer even one of my many questions posed. Your silence is deafening, and I will let that speak for itself.
Finally, it is you who is spreading half-truths. I do not have an "irrational hatred" of vineyards, as you wrote in your previous post. In fact, I know several vineyard owners whom I know and respect.
However, that being said, I will not hesitate to take them to task when I feel that they are displaying a blatant disregard for the surrounding environment and -- perhaps even more importantly -- their neighbors.
F.Y.I.: Both sides of my family were involved and engaged in agricultural pursuits, i.e., vegetable-growing, dairy farming, and, yes, wine-making back in the day, but to a much lesser extent than the former pursuits listed. And, yes, they were good neighbors.
And I'll do you one better: I'll go out on a limb and say they if my grandparents were still here, they, being strong believers in the concept of community, would be APPALLED at the lack of concern for these people.
And that's no half-truth.
Pace
04-24-2013, 02:25 PM
In a perfect world I would propose that all farming be organic. Unfortunately in this imperfect world where the ecosystem is already unbalanced, organic farming is not economically feasible for a lot of farmers. It boils down to cost of farming and crop yield.
Just as people moving to the big cities know that their children will be breathing in smog and other city based pollutants , people who put their children in schools next to apple orchards also must have realized that apples get sprayed as well. For some reason people are up in arms about grapes but apples are okay.
What farmer can afford to keep a large apple orchard going when they can't sell their fruit for enough money to even offset the cost of it's care? What would YOU do if it were YOUR land? Unless you can afford to take a loss every year you might just do the same thing these farmers are doing. Targeting farmers who are just trying to make a living without offering another way for them to make ends meet is just plain wrong. If you want to make a big deal out of a vineyard replacing an existing apple orchard then I say that you should all be prepared to subsidize this farmer so that he or she can farm organically.
"Schools or no schools bills must be paid."
True. There is a strong, growing consensus about the danger that pesticides pose to children's health. What do you propose is a solution?
Peace Voyager
04-24-2013, 03:16 PM
I have taken Colleen up on her offer below and split off her extensive initial list (along with some commentary...) to a new thread called Wacco Heroes and Zeroes
(https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?97661-Wacco-Heros-and-Zeros&p=165533)
As Colleen asks: "will you add to it too?"
I imagine I will... How about you?
Play fair...
Barry
:gravapple:Save all the dry-farmed, organic Gravensteins:gravapple:,
& the children! :): :goorganic:
....
I am pleased to help make lists of heroes and zeros; will you add to it too?
...
Peace Voyager
04-24-2013, 03:21 PM
So you just joined Wacco on 4/24/13 Jay; what's your dog in the race? Are you an apple farmer planning to convert to wine grapes?
In a perfect world I would propose that all farming be organic. Unfortunately in this imperfect world where the ecosystem is already unbalanced, organic farming is not economically feasible for a lot of farmers. It boils down to cost of farming and crop yield. Just as people moving to the big cities know that their children will be breathing in smog and other city based pollutants , people who put their children in schools next to apple orchards also must have realized that apples get sprayed as well. For some reason people are up in arms about grapes but apples are okay. What farmer can afford to keep a large apple orchard going when they can't sell their fruit for enough money to even offset the cost of it's care? What would YOU do if it were YOUR land? Unless you can afford to take a loss every year you might just do the same thing these farmers are doing. Targeting farmers who are just trying to make a living without offering another way for them to make ends meet is just plain wrong. If you want to make a big deal out of a vineyard replacing an existing apple orchard then I say that you should all be prepared to subsidize this farmer so that he or she can farm organically.
eeeeeeow
04-24-2013, 03:23 PM
There should be a moratorium on new vineyard projects for the next five years at least to understand what this conversion to a monoculture will have on our county and the habitat that lies within.
Just yesterday I heard the sounds of chainsaws and looked down my drive to see that the orchard across the street has been completely destroyed. The apple trees that greeted me every morning were gone. Personally, my family's quality of life took a punch in the stomach. My kids cried on their way to school this morning because of it.
As a community, we seem to ignore the possible affect losing these orchards and habitats will have on us.
There are people and conglomerates out there with loads of cash that can snap up parcel after parcel to benefit their private concerns, not the community at large, let alone the environment. We need to look at this long and hard, but meanwhile, we need to stop planting vineyards. There is a bigger picture, folks. To ignore it is immoral.
Peace Voyager
04-24-2013, 03:38 PM
Not everyone will be happy with the solution but there is certainly a best possible outcome to be achieved.
This "best" outcome is subjective, and will be based on 2 things, the loudest, most numerous voices; or the ones with the most money to buy favors, campaigns, and legal expenses.
Since you just joined us as well; what is your stake in it? Let's try the direct approach.
We know the Press Democrat is invested in lurkers to report and comment on Wacco threads like this.
Who's pocket are you in; & who is in yours?
Kalia
04-24-2013, 04:33 PM
We know the Press Democrat in invested in lurkers to report and comment on Wacco threads like this.
And how do we know that, exactly? What's your source? Barry, can you corroborate? Have you busted paid lurkers?
And since PeaceVoyager will ask, I don't have a dog in this fight. I live near Water Trough Road but don't have kids in any of the affected schools and don't own ag property.
Kalia
Peace Voyager
04-24-2013, 04:51 PM
Who can forget the infamous vineyard conversion in the middle of Gravenstein Highway North in the fall of 2010 which resulted in what amounted to a replication of the Oklahoma Dust Bowl? The owners of the property did not even have so much as one water truck on the property initially to quell the dust; yet, the property sits right next to a state highway. Cars were dodging each other; it is a miracle that no one was hurt -- or killed. It is only after complaints were made that a water truck was finally brought in.
Thanks for pointing out -
WHAT WENT WRONG
in Sonoma County Agriculture, when it went from an industry, to a trophy investment for the 1% and 1% wannabe's.
WHAT WE NEED:
Sustainable land and water use; not fat cat vineyard owners, investors & lobbyist who buy off judges, ignore permits and environmental regulations; as well as not honoring right-of-way agreements promising no taking of trees. (This is what Hobbs did on the Hwy. 116 property across from Harmony Farms).
This is what happened and why I and others spoke up:
Sonoma County freezes hillside vineyard conversions
Just remember that before throwing them under the bus in this article, Efren Carrillo was hosting campaign fundraisers at the Hobbs winery; which clear-cut property in his district without proper permits - at least 3 times under Carillo's nose. He was alerted to Hobb's illegal taking of Jenkel's property long BEFORE it happened and was clear-cut. Carillo did nothing to prevent it, and nothing since to restore justice to Jenkel, or the community & scenic highway visitors.
Also, it's key to remember that the new owners of the Press Democrat, are long-time influencers of it; Doug Bosco & Darius Anderson are Big Wine Ag advocates, as well as, are Lobbyists for PG&E and Station Casinos.
Do you honestly think any news which would hurt their clients', friends', spouses', lovers' and advertisers' interests would not be put through a serious spin cycle first?
Just look at how Bosco helped Efren spin out of assault right before he bought the paper:
Where was Carrillo yesterday? On a photo op for Crime Victims' Awareness, "walk a mile in their shoes".
Ask Efren Carillo what it might be like to walk in the shoes of the victim he put in the ER in San Diego with a single first-strike blow.
How convenient to have the resources of politically connected friends like Doug Bosco which enabled Efren to extra special treatment:
Facing felony charges, still bail is set at $10,000, rather than the usual $60,000 AND he's allowed to leave the country for Russia! Then when the person Bosco tasked to use his relationship with San Diego law enforcement to obstruct justice and influence the charges getting dropped, look what happens to local law enforcement when they become informed – nothing! The organized crime of the lobbyists for Station Casinos, PG& E & chainsaw wine have all bases covered for their political pawns' crimes and bad behaviour.
Or do they???
It's up to you to demand justice. This won't fix itself; and what is lost if you remain silent is irreplaceable. This is not simply about swapping apples with grapes. It's about money, power, corrupt media & politicians shaping and spoiling our air, water and land use safegaurds.
Have you had enough?:drink4:
Carrillo 'pleased' with decision to drop charges (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121009/ARTICLES/121009481/0/SEARCH)
Sonoma County Supervisor Efren Carrillo said Tuesday he was 'pleased' that the case against him stemming from a street fight in San Diego had been dropped. Published October 9, 2012 https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121009/ARTICLES/121009481/0/SEARCH
San Diego prosecutors drop case against Carrillo (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121008/ARTICLES/121009549/0/SEARCH)
On Monday, a week before Supervisor Efren Carrillo was due to face charges from a Labor Day fight in San Diego, the case was dropped due to 'insufficient evidence.' Carrillo has yet to comment. Published October 8, 2012
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121008/ARTICLES/121009549/0/SEARCH
Carrillo back, refuses to talk about arrest (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120915/ARTICLES/120919677/0/SEARCH)
Sonoma County Supervisor Efren Carrillo appeared at a pair of local events on Saturday but remained tight-lipped about his arrest in San Diego. Published September 15, 2012 https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120915/ARTICLES/120919677/0/SEARCH
Carrillo charges reduced, may be dropped in San Diego fight (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120910/ARTICLES/120919981/0/SEARCH)
Sonoma County Supervisor Efren Carrillo will not face felony charges in connection with his arrest after a San Diego street fight, police said Monday. Published September 10, 2012 https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120910/ARTICLES/120919981/0/SEARCH
New details in fight, arrest as Carrillo off to Russia (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120906/ARTICLES/120909748/0/SEARCH)
Sonoma County Supervisor Efren Carrillo departed for Russia on Thursday as questions swirled about his arrest during a brawl in San Diego on Labor Day. Published September 6, 2012
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120906/ARTICLES/120909748/0/SEARCH
Carrillo arrested in San Diego fight (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120905/ARTICLES/120909839/0/SEARCH)
Sonoma County Supervisor Efren Carrillo was arrested in San Diego on Labor Day after an early-morning fight outside a popular nightclub that left one man unconscious. Published September 5, 2012
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120905/ARTICLES/120909839/0/SEARCH
PD Editorial: The unsavory lightness of Jenkel's undoing (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20110602/OPINION/110609844/0/SEARCH)
Outcry over clear-cutting along Gravenstein Highway (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20110531/NEWS/105311012/0/SEARCH)
Disputed Graton houses burned in fire drill (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20110521/ARTICLES/110529883/0/SEARCH)
'Stop-work' order on Guerneville-area timber conversion (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20110513/ARTICLES/110519676/0/SEARCH)
So who gets to write
the next chapter,
the 1%,
or the majority of us?
Peace Voyager
04-24-2013, 05:03 PM
Former Press Democrat reporter Bleys Rose confirmed the PD's use of lurkers on Wacco to me personally. I do not know if they are paid for this as part of their job, or supplement to their retirement, or do it unpaid to protect their interests, investments, reputation, etc.
You may know of PG&E recently getting a big fine from the State for infiltrating the EMF Safety Network under false premises. This is why I continue to make the Bosco connection beyond the wine grape monopoly to the other risks to our well being in Sonoma County and beyond.
Peace Voyager wrote:
We know the Press Democrat is invested in lurkers to report and comment on Wacco threads like this.
And how do we know that, exactly? What's your source? Barry, can you corroborate? Have you busted paid lurkers?
Barry
04-24-2013, 05:20 PM
And how do we know that, exactly? What's your source? Barry, can you corroborate? Have you busted paid lurkers?
I cannot corroborate that. I'm proud to count at least 1 former PD reporter, Bleys Rose, among our contributing members, but I am not aware of any other formal contacts.
However, the PD recently slapped my hand for re-posting their article on the Preservation Ranch deal and asked me to refrain from re-posting their articles in the future. That was after I had done so, selectively, many times, with full attribution, of course. So there seems to be some awareness of what's going on here.
We do seem attract new members that jump in to controversial issues from time to time. I have nothing to suggest that they are paid by the PD or anybody else, though they often post on the side of monied interests. So long as they are respectful, thoughtful and on topic, they are welcome. :waccosun:
dominus
04-24-2013, 06:06 PM
It doesn't always work out. Sometimes people lose money and sometimes children matter more than someone paying the bills.
rossmen
04-24-2013, 09:13 PM
who is beenie anyway? no info on the profile... sounds like a hobbs attack dog to me. hobbs doesn't play fair, including online. i know from experience. ignore the weenie unless they man up to name their connections to the land and people of sonoma county!
Ah Sebastacat, you are propagating half-truths here.
Barry
04-24-2013, 10:32 PM
who is beenie anyway? no info on the profile... !
Care to introduce yourself, William? To repeat a couple of the optional profile questions:
"How did you hear about WaccoBB.net?"
"What do you do to earn some bucks?"
And additionally, why are you so interested in this matter?
Barry
04-24-2013, 11:04 PM
Care to introduce yourself, William? To repeat a couple of the optional profile questions:
"How did you hear about WaccoBB.net?"
"What do you do to earn some bucks?"
And additionally, why are you so interested in this matter?
To add to this, would you care to expound further on your previous comment?
Not everyone will be happy with the solution but there is certainly a best possible outcome to be achieved.
Alexandra
04-24-2013, 11:26 PM
Dear WACCO Members & Readers,
It is an awesome and amazing testament to our community when we mark how far we have come in just 3 days since we have started to organize to address the proposed Vineyard Conversion on Watertrough Road. The beginning of our alliance includes children, parents, teachers, administrators, and many others. We have been in contact with the AG Board, the PRMD, the Vintner, Legal Counsel and the School Boards and Administrations. Meetings are planned for next week. Please join us in this effort. We invite your expertise, experience and partnership. There is a petition to sign which is just the first step in our scope.
There are a lot of issues that this touches on and certainly quite a bit of passion. To focus things to the main concern, it seems that it would be difficult to find a more troublesome situation where 3 schools literally touch the property in question and 2 are just across a small 2 lane road and 1 further up the road. We are not sure another cluster of schools so close to each other exists. It is a perfect storm with the combined number of mostly young children from the adjacent schools numbering close to or over 1000 mixed with a proposed 40 acre Vineyard. The shared boundary stretches up the road that borders the 3 schools and wraps around the back of these schools. There is ALOT of exposure. Despite the Right To Farm Provision, Private Property Rights and Agricultural Zoning, it is illegal for pesticides to "Drift". There are strict and specific California laws that address this and override everything else. It has been brought to our attention, over and over during the past couple of days, the great and likely potential for harm to these young, developing and vulnerable children and their stewards and the accompanying liability.
We look forward to hearing from you and receiving your assistance in this urgent and far reaching matter.
sebastacat
04-24-2013, 11:32 PM
Mr. Beenie Weenie......your credibility is rapidly becoming eeenie weenie.
I drove down the Gravenstein Highway Strip this evening and saw THREE (3) vineyards in an approximately two-mile distance that had either cultivated the ground or mowed/sprayed all of the vegetation between the rows of grapes. I found one vineyard that seemed to leave some sort of vegetation between approximately every third or fourth row of the vines, and the vegetation that was left was mowed extremely short.
So why, then, did you make it a point in your inaugural post to tell us that most vineyards in Sonoma County do not mow between the rows of vines when the opposite appears to be true?
I guess it doesn't really matter, but I feel that the people on this board deserve something better than to be mislead, deceived and fed half-truths by the bushel.
Perhaps a good place to start would be with the truth.
Shepherd
04-25-2013, 04:12 AM
Apples do not "require far more chemicals than grapes," as alleged below. I have farmed apples for 20 years near Apple Blossom school and never used chemicals. Perhaps the writer of these words has still not heard of organic, artisan or holistic farming.
This is the way it used to be, before the chemicals used to make war during World War II were transformed into pesticides and fertilizers. They were then ignited in l995 at the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people. This month they ignited near San Antonio, Texas, at the West Fertilizer Co., killing more than a dozen people and injuring nearly 200. Get the message--chemical farming is hazardous, not only to pests, but to humans.
The bloated alcohol industry in Sonoma County is a threat to our economy and health. There are certainly many wonderful organic grape growers here. One problem is the boom and bust nature of this industry. Another is that this mono-crop has made Sonoma County vulnerable to a pest that could wipe out grapes.
Another problem is that ag land has become too expensive for most people to buy land to grow food, as I was able to 20 years ago. The grape industry is far too powerful in this county and draws some "bad apples," like Paul Hobbs, who do mean things to people, as well as to the land.
I will stand with the parents and families at Apple Blossom and Sun Ridge schools when the day comes that we need to back off the immoderate use of ag. lands for the grape industry.
I am having a difficult time understanding why this is even an issue at all. Apples require far more chemicals than grapes. Even organic sprays drift and can cause respiratory irritation. Grapes rarely require any application of insecticides while apples regularly require fungicides and insecticides. Spraying of apples requires spray rigs that force the chemicals high into the treetops which increases the potential for drift.
Folks like you are usually long on complaints but very short on viable alternatives.
Beenie Weenie
04-25-2013, 09:50 AM
I want to apologize for not replying to you Sebastacat . Ii was working until very late last night and did not have the time or energy to post a thoughtful reply.
Who am I? I am an accidental grape grower.
Several years ago, a large apple orchard adjacent to my property was put up for sale. Many large, well known wineries descended on the property and in a short time there were several offers to purchase it. I knew that if I didn’t buy the property I would be living next to a vineyard that I would have absolutely no control of. I shared all of the concerns that you folks have today. My only option was to purchase the land. In addition to spending every cent I had, I borrowed money from my family and the bank. I over-leveraged myself and my family but I managed to purchase the property. I knew absolutely nothing about farming. After the excitement wore off I had to figure out how to pay back my family and the bank. I attempted to organically rejuvenate the ancient orchard (which required that I spend more money that I didn’t have).
When my first meager crop was ready for harvest there were no buyers for my apples. Oh I could sell a half ton here or a half ton there but the cost of picking would have put me under. There was no way that I could farm the orchard profitably. I was now nearly bankrupt.
My options were few.
1. I could sell the land to a large winery which would mean that I would lose control of the land forever and be at the mercy of the new owners.
2. I could declare bankruptcy and still lose the land and my home as well as destroy my credit.
3. I could lease a portion of the land to a winery and plant my own grapes on the remaining portion of the land for myself.
Which option would you have chosen?
I chose option 3.
As soon as I began removing the trees the neighbors started doing exactly what you are doing now. Here I was trying to do the right thing and I was being harassed on an almost daily basis.
I do not irrigate my grapes. I farm as sustainably as I can and use a minimal amount of chemicals only when absolutely necessary. I am a good steward of the land. I want this land to be a healthy, thriving ecosystem forever. If grapes go out of favor, I will happily plant tomatoes if tomatoes will help me keep the land. I believe that owning land doesn’t give you the right to abuse it; it gives you the privilege to live on it and take care of it. Even though I do not irrigate my grapes people still accuse me of being responsible for their water problems!
Installing a vineyard is extremely expensive. It takes on average over 10 years to break even. If the weather is fickle (as it has been) it can take even longer. No one who plants a vineyard is going to make a quick buck.
Is installing a vineyard messy? Yes. But it is temporary mess. Can all of the nuisance vectors be completely mitigated? No. Can most of them be mitigated to some extent? Yes. Once the installation is complete a vineyard becomes a very peaceful place. From harvest in September to bud break in April there is almost nothing going on in the vineyard at all. After harvest, the cover crop is tilled in and then when the vines are dormant they are pruned and the canes tied.
In the growing season, If the vineyard is farmed organically it will have to be sprayed more frequently than if it were sprayed with conventional fungicides. Spraying more frequently requires more early morning sprays and more fuel being burned by the tractors. Most conventional fungicides are extremely expensive and some require an application rate of as little as 2 ounces per acre. No grower is going to apply even one drop more chemical than is needed.
Spraying is highly regulated. Every time a vineyard is sprayed (conventionally or organically) a detailed report must be filed with the Agricultural Commissioner’s office. Growers must be licensed to purchase chemicals and their permit must be renewed annually. All workers must be trained and the chemicals (organic and conventional) stored in a well-marked secure area.
I am not alone in my feeling of respect for the land. I know many growers, large and small who are in this for the long haul and would not intentionally do anything to hurt their land. Most if not all growers would be very happy to sit down with their neighbors to explain just exactly what they are planning to do in the vineyard. All you have to do is ask them.
Many of the growers in this area have been farming here for generations. They have a deep respect for the land and they are trying to make an honest living.
Sebastacat, I stand by my statement of alternating rows of cover crop. I also stand by my statement of Methyl Bromide hardly ever being used anymore. Your quick trip down Hwy 116 looking at the vineyard rows is not an accurate way to assess how cover crops are managed in Sonoma County. Some of the vineyards on Hwy 116 are very new. The roots of young vines are not established so they are unable to compete with a cover crop. This is why every row of the vineyards you site are spaded or disked. Once the roots have gained a foothold, the rows can be mowed instead of disced or spaded. I didn’t say that all vineyards mow alternate rows. Some growers disc every row, some disc every other row and some don’t disc at all and simply mow between rows. Can the way vineyards be farmed be improved? Absolutely. Are some growers more environmentally conscious than others? Yes.
The wine grown in this area is certainly not the drug of choice for alcoholics. It is far too expensive to for most people to drink on a daily basis.
I have received many emails and letters from customers thanking me for producing my wines. I recently received a card from a woman in Florida whose fiancé proposed to her over a bottle of our wine. She told me that our wine was an integral part of that very special moment for her and she wanted to share it with me. Not everyone drinks wine to get drunk.
As you may know, our field hands are mostly from Mexico. These men and women are some of the finest people that I have ever had the privilege of working alongside of. Do you know what they do with most of the money from their paychecks? They send it back to their families in Mexico. The wine industry tangentially supports whole communities in Mexico. I can’t speak to all of the growers but everyone I know treats their workers with respect, pays them fairly, and provides them with insurance.
Have any of you heard of Ulises Valdez? https://www.valdezfamilywinery.com/
Paul Hobbs purchases some of his grapes from Ulises.
There are many other fine growers in this county. The Dutton family, for instance, has been farming in Sonoma County since the 1880’s.
This issue of an orchard replant next to a school is an important one with many facets. The health of the children is, of course, the most important. Can the children be protected? Yes. How? That’s not for me to say. It is up to the grower and landowner to develop a plan that will protect the school. Something to remember however; it is my understanding that the school was built on farmland. The farmland was there before the school. In hindsight it probably wasn’t such a good idea to build a school next to a farm. And for the neighbors; When most of you moved in you knew (or should have known) that you were moving in to an agricultural area. You shouldn’t be surprised by the agricultural activity.
If I had to guess I would say that this vineyard will be approved. It’s up to you to either work with the vineyard owner to create a workable plan that will insure that the children and the land are protected, or oppose every move the owner(s) make thereby forcing them to take extreme measures to protect their land.
I do not work for the vineyard owners. I do not even know who they are. But I have seen this play out time and time again. You folks are bright, informed and concerned Sebastopolites. You can help bring this situation to its best possible outcome.
Kalia
04-25-2013, 10:02 AM
Sebastacat, your sample size is eenie-weenie. You saw 4 vineyards out of however many hundreds there are in Sonoma County and have now decided that what you saw is representative? I'm not saying you're right or that Weenie is right, just that you need to look at a whole lot more vineyards before you can make a credible statement.
Kalia
Mr. Beenie Weenie......your credibility is rapidly becoming eeenie weenie.
I drove down the Gravenstein Highway Strip this evening and saw THREE (3) vineyards in an approximately two-mile distance that had either cultivated the ground or mowed/sprayed all of the vegetation between the rows of grapes. ...
Beenie Weenie
04-25-2013, 10:15 AM
Apples do not "require far more chemicals than grapes," as alleged below.
I misspoke. I should have said that conventionally farmed apples generally require more chemicals than conventionally farmed grapes.
My apologies.
Another is that this mono-crop has made Sonoma County vulnerable to a pest that could wipe out grapes.
Question: When 90% of the crops in this area were apples, were apples not a mono-crop?
sebastacat
04-25-2013, 11:59 AM
Good morning, beenie weenie...
First things first.
What are the "extreme measures" to protect the land to which you refer near the bottom of your post?
Is this something you can share with us outside of the wine-growing community without being ostracized, or is this a threat that you may have overheard? Please let us know.
I am glad that you are a good steward of the land and do not irrigate your grapes. However, based on my observations and what I have been told by others who are far more knowledgeable than I am on the subject of vineyard irrigation, you are one of the few growers who employs this type of waterless grape-growing.
I remember well in the late '90's/early 2000's attending meetings in Occidental and hearing people's heartbreaking stories about how their wells dried up when a vineyard purchased property next door to theirs and drilled a deeper well next to theirs. Maybe those vineyard owners were being good "stewards" of THEIR LAND, but were they being good neighbors? Did they care that the well on the parcel next too theirs had been sucked dry? The answer -- all too often -- was NO.
I like to think that things have changed since that time, but when a proposal is being put forth like the one which we now find ourselves confronting, it certainly gives me pause.
Also, I continue to be amazed by so many vineyard owners who use the phrase "good neighbor."
Yet, what is the first thing that they do BEFORE they even undertake the development of a vineyard? Put up a seemingly endless amount of galvanized -- and, sometimes, barbed-wire -- fencing, along with several
"NO TRESPASSING" signs attached to it. Just what exactly are they afraid of? And who at that point are they trying to keep out? Copper thieves? Perhaps. But that has always begged the question:
Why continue to use copper fittings when they might get stolen anyway?
Sorry, but pardon me while I take this opportunity to reminesce and pine for the days when I first moved over here to Sebastopol (after living in Santa Rosa since 1961 -- and Sebastopol Road, on a working prune and walnut orchard, since 1972) and there were hardly any fences to be found.
Now, thanks to the proliferation of vineyards, the west county is fast taking on the look of a prison.
You speak of conventional fungicides being "extremely expensive" and that "some require an application rate of as little as 2 (two) ounces per acre. No grower is going to apply even one drop more chemical than is needed."
NOR SHOULD THEY!!
I will point out to you something which you conveniently omitted in an attempt to make the spraying of a vineyard more acceptable: There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between CONCENTRATION and DOSE!
Many of the agricultural versions of the fungicides and insecticides which you use are highly concentrated. The homeowners' counterpart of the same chemical is usually sold in a much more diluted form. Thus,
2 (two) ounces of the agricultural version of a certain chemical could potentially contain EVEN MORE
active ingredient than a pint or even a quart or even a gallon of the homeowners' version, depending, of course, on the particular chemical involved.
This, of course, is a general example; however, it is an extremely important point that needs to be made.
Trying to minimize the danger of spraying a chemical -- any chemical -- by saying that a particular chemical might be applied at a dosage of as little as 2 (two) ounces per acre is not going to make spraying agricultural chemicals right next door and in close proximity to six (6) schools any safer.
Also, another important question needs to be asked: To what chemical class do the chemicals which are going to be sprayed on this potential vineyard belong? Are they labeled CAUTION, WARNING or --
hopefully not -- DANGER? What is their position on the LD list?
I think that since the people at the school are going to be impacted directly by these chemicals that they have a right to know. Don't you? Please let us know where you stand.
Now, on to something else. You say that "many growers, large and small"....."would not do anything to intentionally hurt their land."
I agree with you; I'm sure they wouldn't. But, unfortunately, some of them sure don't mind hurting other people.
Take the vineyard installation at the corner of Occidental Road and 116 behind the Texaco station (the approximate area). Who can forget the ugly -- absolutely ugly -- and well-documented incident of the neighbor who was in his home on his death bed dying during that messy vineyard conversion and how the developers of that vineyard, their eyes clouded by rapacious greed, refused to stop the messy conversion even temporarily so that he could live out his final days on this earth in the peace and comfort of his own home? There was much publicity surrounding it at the time. And I will tell you that that shameful incident made me ashamed to tell people that I was from Sonoma County. And I AM a lifelong resident. (Question, added after original post submitted: Who in the west county who was around at that time will ever forget all of those improperly secured pieces of black visqueen flapping and flying around, allowing the methyl bromide fumes which they were supposed to be trapping to escape?)
No, some of us do not -- and will not -- forget. Being close to my family and having strong family values, you can't expect me to. And please, don't defend the vineyard developers for their shameful conduct; there simply is NO defense.
I have made another perusal of vineyards and still can't find many in my immediate area matching the
"mow/row" descriptions in your posts. I'll promise you one thing, though: I'll keep lookin'. Maybe I'll find a couple.
And, by the way, two of the vineyards that I described viewing yesterday in my previous post were WELL-ESTABLISHED vineyards.
Finally, lest you attempt to make the miraculous assumption that I am nothing more than a griping hypocrite, let me dispell any predispositions about me which you may have but are not willing to state:
I do NOT consume wine -- produced from grapes grown in Sonoma County of anywhere else, and I never will. In fact, I can't stand wine! It burns my stomach and makes me sick.
That said, I have several friends who do. And we all long for a day when those engaged in your industry will treat their neighbors with the same dignity and respect they they give to their grapes, their land and each other.
And I don't think that's asking for too much.
P.S.: When hops were so widely grown in Sonoma County, were they not a monocrop? Yes, they were. Then that scourge-of-all-scourges -- downy mildew -- wiped them out, once and for all, in the late 1940's. I know; my dad used to pick them when he was a kid....
Peace Voyager
04-25-2013, 02:09 PM
who is beenie anyway? no info on the profile... sounds like a hobbs attack dog to me. hobbs doesn't play fair, including online. i know from experience. ignore the weenie unless they man up to name their connections to the land and people of sonoma county!
Beenie Weenie is listed as William Reston; Pace goes by Jay Norman.
More details anyone?
:waccosun: Colleen Fernald
Sonoma County resident since 1982
Consultant, Sales, Marketing, Advertising - in areas relating to optimal: living, working, playing
Loves well balanced, locally owned, organic & permaculture based agriculture
Hates politics, so jumps into elections to challenge voters to require more from candidates and elected officials than just business as usual.
Seeks to improve our quality of life by helping to define and achieve ideal environmental and social standards for 99.5% of us; and bankrupting or incarcerating the remaining .5%, whose means of profit causes harm, and/or is a result of illegal, immoral, or unconstitutional activity
amumina
04-25-2013, 05:36 PM
Dear Community,
Here is a petition to sign as a first step in having your voices be heard on this issue. Please pass this on and join a growing and diverse alliance of concerned families and community members who will no longer allow current agribusiness practices to violate our children and lands. We are committed to ensuring that their future is in nurturing hands.
We are a group of parents, children, educators, and community members associated with the five schools (Sunridge, Apple Blossom, Orchard View, Tree House Hollow Preschool, and Nonesuch) forming a dense children’s educational corridor on a block of Watertrough Road in Sebastopol, California. As community members, friends, and parents of hundreds of children in the Atascadero Watershed, we are forming this alliance to voice our intense concerns over the impending development of an orchard to vineyard conversion directly in our midst.
We are deeply troubled by the cumulative, chronic, and acute health effects from the use of pesticides, fumigants, herbicides, insecticides, rodenticides, and other toxic chemicals potentially involved in these agricultural projects which will undeniably drift in close range onto a large children’s population in their sensitive, developing years.
We are devastated with facing the environmental degradation of soil, water, air, and habitat from this project. The resulting erosion, runoff, dust, and traffic will be polluting our playgrounds, schools, wells, waterways, rivers, aquifers, and land.
As a collective voice we require a final say in determining the character and quality of life surrounding our community and children as a basic human right trumping all other concerns.
dominus
04-25-2013, 06:01 PM
The Feds have kept the interest rates artificially low and this will continue. A lot of money has been parked on the sidelines since 2008. Given the options for investors these days, many investors are growing leery of the increasing volatility of Fed induced bubbles and all the accompanying manipulation. Consequently, a lot of money is going into "hard assets." Buying land for growing grapes has become the new modern day version of the "gold rush."
Beenie Weenie
04-25-2013, 08:53 PM
Sebastacat,
You’re going to have your hands full trying to stop the vineyard installation so don’t waste any of your time going back and forth with me. I was simply being honest in sharing my experience as a grape grower with you. The points that I raised will certainly be raised by those that you oppose. The difference is that I have nothing to lose discussing this with you and I am not threatened by you. The folks you oppose have a lot at stake and won’t roll over simply because you or anyone else strongly believes that they shouldn’t replace an orchard with a vineyard.
There were several points I brought up that you either missed or simply chose to ignore. You won’t have the luxury of ignoring the powers that be when you present your case so I suggest you rely less on hyperbole and more on facts.
I don’t have time to waste either so I’ll take this opportunity to bow out and wish you and all of the others the best of luck in your quest…whatever it is.
Regards,
William
sebastacat
04-25-2013, 11:40 PM
WOW! Such a sudden change.....
"Threatened"? Really? I've never "threatened" anyone in my life. Heck, I've never even been arrested.
In fact, I don't even have so much as a parking ticket on my record. I am a law-abiding citizen -- and I intend to keep it that way.
For the record, I did not threaten you -- or anyone else, for that matter. I merely asked you to explain what you meant by the phrase "extreme measures." I also asked you to answer a few questions. Since you did not answer any of them, I will let your silence speak for itself.
Could it be that what you are really "threatened" by is that there is still someone in the west county who remembers with specificity and with excellent recall the shameful acts of some of the bad actors in your industry which were committed in the past? I'll answer that question for you: I think it is.
If you want to dismiss well-founded opinions, the rescitation of well-documented facts and the dispelling of junk science as mere threats and "hyperbole," that certainly is your prerogative to do so. I can't stop you from doing so -- and I won't.
Finally, on my way out of town this afternoon and upon my return this evening, I had the opportunity to view two (2) more vineyards. And, once again, they both had nothing but completely bare ground between the seemingly endless rows of grapes.
But once again, I'll promise you one thing: I'll keep looking.....
And that's no threat.
mamaj
04-26-2013, 09:10 AM
Dear Teenie Weenie, I grew up in Sonoma County,and have experienced what people with big investments into non organic vineyards have done to the land which used to be healthy and thriving. I grew up on Korbel winery. Apart from all the drama within the Heck family, I saw how badly they polluted the land and the Russian River. We could NEVER drink the water there from our homes. When I did once I ended up in the E.R. in so much pain I could not stand up let alone walk, I finally got through it.
My dad who worked there died from cancer, none of the Hecks visited him, even though we lived on their ranch. Their greed ripped him off terribly. He invented the riddling rack to turn the wine bottles ,on his own spare time, his own money. He also invented various bottling machines,in which he never recieved any credit for. His name was Carl Zieber. He gave his life for that winery. Working 24/7 on call. He arrived at Korbel when the original Heck brothers moved there and helped them build their empire. I am proud of him and all the work he did. But not the Hecks.
If you go down the Russian River behind the winery along Korbel beach you can see along the river banks impacted into the earth now, some of the garbage they dumped, they just covered it up with dirt with their tractors when the pile was to big. They were not recycling or even thought of it. The streams near our house had a bad smell and alot of unknown residue floating in what once was water.
My dad never drank the water, and he never drank their wine. Since then, I have seen our once beautiful hillsides and fields destroyed by selfish, greedy investors of this so called industry. But for them to go as far as putting vineyards next to schools and so close to homes, this should and needs to be stopped, and NOW! So Beenie Teenie Weenie , it's obvious where you stand, and you stand without a conscience, or consideration of the health and well being of all concerned.
Sebastacat,
You’re going to have your hands full trying to stop the vineyard installation so don’t waste any of your time going back and forth with me. I was simply being honest in sharing my experience as a grape grower with you. The points that I raised will certainly be raised by those that you oppose. The difference is that I have nothing to lose discussing this with you and I am not threatened by you. The folks you oppose have a lot at stake and won’t roll over simply because you or anyone else strongly believes that they shouldn’t replace an orchard with a vineyard.
There were several points I brought up that you either missed or simply chose to ignore. You won’t have the luxury of ignoring the powers that be when you present your case so I suggest you rely less on hyperbole and more on facts.
I don’t have time to waste either so I’ll take this opportunity to bow out and wish you and all of the others the best of luck in your quest…whatever it is.
Regards,
William
mamaj
04-26-2013, 09:37 AM
So glad this petition is now happening. Everyone needs to sign this and fight for a healthier enviroment for all living beings,especially our children and wild life that call this property home. Thankyou for all your support !:wink::heart::thumbsup:
Thankyou for caring! I was one of the home owners in Freestone who experienced first hand how insane some of these grape growers are. When Phelps winery moved onto Freestone Flat Rd. the owner of their future winery there was extremely friendly to all us neighbors there .... then all hell broke out .
There was a small flock of wild turkeys living healthy happy lives in our area there. We actually raised 4 baby turkey chicks which were abandoned by the mother. My family and I took very good care of them and as they grew up, we learned alot about them and how smart they were.They are very family orienated ,and care for each other. Every early evening they would roost in the trees next to my bedroom, like all wild turkeys, they roost to be safe from predators. They eventually joined the family flock which was wonderful to see ,even though we would miss them. We still had the pleasure of seeing them when they would visit, eating the harmful bugs and snails from our garden, they helped save our vegies and flowers.
Then one evening, before it was dark, I was outside caring for our horses, when I saw 3 trucks drive by going towards the end of Freestone Flat Rd. there is a private pond up there in which my neighbors and my family would walk to. It was always so serene and peaceful, incredible to experience. I wondered why these guys were going up there,they were strangers, not neighbors and it was almost dark outside.
Then suddenly it sounded like a war zone- semi automatic guns were going off in a crazy way, and all the turkeys were calling out for each other in distress, until there were no more turkeys alive. A horrible silence. I could not believe what I experienced, but even all the animals on our farm seemed to feel the stress of what was happening. These guys, one of them Phelps son, and his so called friends, slaughtered these turkeys while they were roosting and peacefully sleeping .They did not have a chance to get away.
I contacted the Dept. of Fish and Game, but they never did anything. They also never responded when Phelps winery had huge bull dozers and tractors push all the top soil from a whole hill side into Salmon creek! This counties' history of "back door deals " has gone on for too long. This goes on between our legal representatives developers, politicians, courts etc. It is nightmare for people who seek justice to be served correctly, and live and raise their families, teaching their children right from wrong. Right now those children are growing up only to learn the real truth. We need to protect and raise our next generations in a honest and healthy enviroment,not the opposite.:heart:
Good morning, beenie weenie...
First things first. ...
Pace
04-26-2013, 11:28 AM
Mammaj, After reading your post and those of others on this board I am pretty discouraged. Lumping all grape growers into one category and using nastiness, insults and sarcasm to make whatever point you are trying to make is not okay. Just because SOME grape growers and wine producers are uncaring and unscrupulous does not mean that ALL grape growers are.
Your personal story is obviously coloring your views. I personally know many good people who were apple farmers and now farm grapes. Changing crops does not make them evil, bad people!! NO one on this board has even acknowledged that it might be jumping the gun to assume that whoever is going to farm this vineyard going in next to the school won't be amenable to organic farming. No one has discussed trying to talk with them. It seems to me that many of the people on this thread that claim to be so morally superior are more interested in fighting and hating than finding a peaceable compromise.
Dear Teenie Weenie, I grew up in Sonoma County,and have experienced what people with big investments into non organic vineyards have done to the land which used to be healthy and thriving....
estrella3210
04-26-2013, 01:23 PM
Christine, Thanks so much for the efforts and getting the word out about the petition, I've forwarded it to hundreds of folks so far. Several previously unknowing parents of Sunridge, all the parents at Tree House Hollow, a large local google-mama-group I'm part of and many other interested parties in the community. Hopefully the word will get out fast.
I have some handwritten signature already too, I'll be gathering more in the days to follow. I want to be sure they are included when the time is ready. Please let me know where and when I should bring these signatures. I will try to come to any meeting as well.
After volunteering at the Songbird Hospital here in Sebastopol for a year I was made very aware of the blight the vineyards specifically create for wildlife as well (loss of habitat (trees provide more habitat than vineyards) nets (animals get trapped in them), all sprays drift, etc.) And sadly the Hallberg Butterfly Garden has seen a serious decrease in the last decade of butterfly's too. Apple farming in this area is simply easier on the environment and thus the people who are part of the environment too.
We simply can't excuse a conventional vineyard going in next to that many children.
Click Here for the petition. (https://www.thepetitionsite.com/263/347/984/stop-corporate-alcohol-firms-from-endangering-children-and-the-environment/#sign)
Thanks so much for coordinating this movement everyone.
In solidarity, Estrella
sebastacat
04-26-2013, 01:43 PM
"Your personal story is obviously coloring your views."
I surely hope it is! Since it is our personal experiences which help us to form our life views and become the people we are.
When I read Mama J's story this morning on this board, it brought me to tears. Can you imagine having to endure that heartless slaughter, especially after bonding with those birds the way she and her family did?
And all for what? Just to save a few clusters of grapes. How pathetic.
And what about her children? What a horrible memory to last a lifetime. If you are not moved by her story, well, you must be devoid of all feeling.
I have been moved by the stories on this board, and I am glad that some of the posters here have shared their personal experiences with some of the bad actors in the vineyard industry. And until such actions cease, people are going to continue to speak out. And well they should.
As the phrase goes, "One bad apple spoils the whole bunch." While it may not always be fair, and while you "good stewards of the land" don't want to admit it and would rather attempt lamely to shift blame, vilify and mischaracterize those of us who are not afraid to tell the truth and express our opinion, that's what tends to happen.
Perhaps its time for some industry-wide regulation of their own if they wish to improve relations with their neighbors? Or...do they even care anymore? Maybe we've all just become mere stepping-stones.
Before you do a wine-country rush-to-judgment, give it some thoughtful consideration.
Think about it.
podfish
04-26-2013, 02:00 PM
"Your personal story is obviously coloring your views."
I surely hope it is! Since it is our personal experiences which help us to form our life views and become the people we are.
When I read Mama J's story this morning on this board, it brought me to tears. Can you imagine having to endure that heartless slaughter, especially after bonding with those birds the way she and her family did?
And all for what? Just to save a few clusters of grapes. How pathetic.
And what about her children? What a horrible memory to last a lifetime. If you are not moved by her story, well, you must be devoid of all feeling.
I have been moved by the stories on this board, and I am glad that some of the posters here have shared their personal experiences with some of the bad actors in the vineyard industry. And until such actions cease, people are going to continue to speak out. And well they should.
As the phrase goes, "One bad apple spoils the whole bunch." While it may not always be fair, and while you "good stewards of the land" don't want to admit it and would rather attempt lamely to shift blame, vilify and mischaracterize those of us who are not afraid to tell the truth and express our opinion, that's what tends to happen.
Perhaps its time for some industry-wide regulation of their own if they wish to improve relations with their neighbors? Or...do they even care anymore? Maybe we've all just become mere stepping-stones.
Before you do a wine-country rush-to-judgment, give it some thoughtful consideration.
Think about it."those of us who are not afraid to tell the truth" ??
come on, it's not such a heroic position as all that. Re-read your post, and then, to reiterate your closing line, think about it!
Just because you're moved to tears by cute turkeys doesn't mean you have some kind of moral high ground to speak from. It's not all sweetness and Bambi; people do protect their crops from wildlife, and we still live in a society that condones killing of what are considered pests. You wouldn't be alone in crusading against it, but there's no consensus on that yet.
More troubling is your casual dismissal of fairness because you think you're on the side of the angels. It's ok that people live by "one apple spoils the whole bunch"??? you think it's fine that people aren't given the courtesy of being treated as individuals, but can be judged at whim by those who disagree?? think about that - have you ever found yourself on the wrong end of that one?
sebastacat
04-26-2013, 02:19 PM
Podfish...thank you for your post.
I wasn't speaking from any "moral high ground," believe me.
No, I don't think that it is necessarily fair that "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch." But, unfortunately, that's what tends to happen sometimes.
Would I want to be treated as an individual and not put into the same category with someone else who may have committed some bad -- even reprehensible -- act that I myself did not commit? Of course not.
But I do believe that stories such as Mama J's story of the turkey-slaughter tend to cast a bad light on the industry as a whole, and that's unfortunate.
Question: Why didn't they just use netting to protect the grapes? Was it because killing the turkeys right before dark when they were all together nesting, resting and vulnerable the cheaper option??
If the latter was true, I'll say it once again, this time loudly: HOW PATHETIC.
rossmen
04-26-2013, 09:51 PM
actually the possibility of an organic vineyard has been hoped for in this thread. the problem is the conversion is reported to involve paul hobbs. weenie seems to know him, do you? his rep as a neighbor is beyond horrible. he is bad news for the wine industry.
Mammaj, After reading your post and those of others on this board I am pretty discouraged. Lumping all grape growers into one category and using nastiness, insults and sarcasm to make whatever point you are trying to make is not okay. Just because SOME grape growers and wine producers are uncaring and unscrupulous does not mean that ALL grape growers are.
Your personal story is obviously coloring your views. I personally know many good people who were apple farmers and now farm grapes. Changing crops does not make them evil, bad people!! NO one on this board has even acknowledged that it might be jumping the gun to assume that whoever is going to farm this vineyard going in next to the school won't be amenable to organic farming. No one has discussed trying to talk with them. It seems to me that many of the people on this thread that claim to be so morally superior are more interested in fighting and hating than finding a peaceable compromise.
Alexandra
04-26-2013, 10:20 PM
Some things to consider:
1. The only thing constant is change. There are many policies and practices from the past that we now view with disbelief as we have made progress and understand how badly some things have been handled at all levels in history. A consideration of the future is wise. Business as usual may not be the best choice to continue to better ourselves and our world.
2. There have always been special dispensations and rules for schools- slower speed limits, restrictions on neighboring businesses and much else. Our society operates on the belief that children do deserve special protection as they are vulnerable and because they will be the stewards of the future.
3. Many of the parents would absolutely be supportive of a bond (similar to the ones that the Sebastopol School Districts have recently been successful in passing), that compensates family farmers (not corporations that have recently purchased property) for farming organically and for setting aside parts of their property for wildlife corridors and other environmental concerns.
4. There would not be in place, the strict Statewide pesticide laws if there wasn't a problem with these particular chemicals. It is not easy to pass this kind of legislation and certainly there was extensive reason to do so. When we contacted Supervisor Carillo's Office, we were told on our first call with them that they have concerns about Drift and the multiple nearby schools. While there is much to be researched, considered and discussed , this is without question a legitimate concern for parents who are worried.
Barry
04-26-2013, 10:44 PM
3. Many of the parents would absolutely be supportive of a bond (similar to the ones that the Sebastopol School Districts have recently been successful in passing), that compensates family farmers (not corporations that have recently purchased property) for farming organically and for setting aside parts of their property for wildlife corridors and other environmental concerns.
That's a good idea. I've been thinking that a new agriculture buffer overlay zone would be helpful that would be applied to all parcels that are currently zoned for agriculture that adjoin non-agriculture uses that places additional restrictions on their farming practices, including perhaps requiring it to be certified organic.
Of course the owners of the land would scream bloody murder, and they would have a point. It's quite possible that the value of their land would fall, and they would be constrained on how they could manage their land. Perhaps they could be compensated in some fashion, as above. Just a thought...:waccosun:
Shepherd
04-27-2013, 04:14 AM
I so appreciate Alexandra's tone and points in this email. She makes some really good points and does so in non-offensive ways. This is a winnable struggle, especially if we stay away from demonizing grape growers. There are many wonderful grape growers in Sonoma County, who would be natural allies. Now that some people have discharged some strong feelings, if we could focus on points such as those below, more people could be won over.
Some things to consider:
1. The only thing constant is change. There are many policies and practices from the past that we now view with disbelief as we have made progress and understand how badly some things have been handled at all levels in history. A consideration of the future is wise. Business as usual may not be the best choice to continue to better ourselves and our world.
2. There have always been special dispensations and rules for schools- slower speed limits, restrictions on neighboring businesses and much else. Our society operates on the belief that children do deserve special protection as they are vulnerable and because they will be the stewards of the future.
3. Many of the parents would absolutely be supportive of a bond (similar to the ones that the Sebastopol School Districts have recently been successful in passing), that compensates family farmers (not corporations that have recently purchased property) for farming organically and for setting aside parts of their property for wildlife corridors and other environmental concerns.
4. There would not be in place, the strict Statewide pesticide laws if there wasn't a problem with these particular chemicals. It is not easy to pass this kind of legislation and certainly there was extensive reason to do so. When we contacted Supervisor Carillo's Office, we were told on our first call with them that they have concerns about Drift and the multiple nearby schools. While there is much to be researched, considered and discussed , this is without question a legitimate concern for parents who are worried.
Tofu Larry
04-27-2013, 08:55 AM
Pace wrote: Just because SOME grape growers and wine producers are uncaring and unscrupulous does not mean that ALL grape growers are.
This is certainly true. However, Paul Hobbs Winery has proven to be one of the uncaring and unscrupulous growers, a poor steward of the land and a bad neighbor. I am no fan of John Jenkel, but Hobbs took callous advantage of him. Boycott Paul Hobbs Chainsaw Wine.
Tofu Larry
Pace
04-27-2013, 09:04 AM
I don't know him personally though I do know OF him, who in this county doesn't? I had not heard before that he was the one doing the conversion. Is this hearsay or fact?
actually the possibility of an organic vineyard has been hoped for in this thread. the problem is the conversion is reported to involve paul hobbs. weenie seems to know him, do you? his rep as a neighbor is beyond horrible. he is bad news for the wine industry.
rossmen
04-28-2013, 12:28 AM
great question : ) i don't know and i want too. hearsay until confirmed as fact. maybe gratongirl aka susan upchurch efrans assistant is reading and could let us know?
paul hobbs got me banned from yelp for talking the truth about him. i notice hobbs new vineyard, the latest take from his neighbor jenkel, is plowed every other row. makes me think weenie is full of bean farts when he named the reason for this practice. i thought it was for erosion control in a dry spring year. makes no sense as a beneficial insect habitat strategy in a conventional vineyard where they spray pesticides. and hobbs doing this with one year old vines contradicts weenie too.
my neighbor sprayed his vines today. i always assume it's fungicide sulfur at this time of year, same as organic growers do. it's frightening to think beenie is right that conventional growers use different fungicides, so effective two ounces treats an acre. the same spray rigs are used for vines as well as apples, the cloud just drifts farther cause the lower plants catch less. my neighbor is kind enough to do it usually when the wind is low and prevailing away from me into the vineyard. even then the spray is visible tens of feet to the windward side and hundreds of feet with the wind.
I don't know him [Paul Hobbs] personally though I do know OF him, who in this county doesn't? I had not heard before that he was the one doing the conversion. Is this hearsay or fact?
Pace
04-28-2013, 09:30 AM
Living next to the infamous Paul Hobbs must be a challenge. According to his reputation, he is at the far end of the unscrupulous grower's spectrum. There are many reasonable grape growers who aren't interested in increasing production at any cost. Maybe if financial incentives were given to these farmers like they have for solar power they would start farming organically and dry farming. As for Paul Hobbs' young vineyard being mowed every other row my guess is that he irrigates. Dry farmed grapes have to struggle when young due to their still shallow roots and can't afford to compete with other plants also seeking moisture. Maybe BW was speaking from his own experience with dry farming.
great question : ) i don't know and i want too. hearsay until confirmed as fact. maybe gratongirl aka susan upchurch efrans assistant is reading and could let us know?
paul hobbs got me banned from yelp for talking the truth about him. i notice hobbs new vineyard, the latest take from his neighbor jenkel, is plowed every other row. makes me think weenie is full of bean farts when he named the reason for this practice. i thought it was for erosion control in a dry spring year. makes no sense as a beneficial insect habitat strategy in a conventional vineyard where they spray pesticides. and hobbs doing this with one year old vines contradicts weenie too.
my neighbor sprayed his vines today. i always assume it's fungicide sulfur at this time of year, same as organic growers do. it's frightening to think beenie is right that conventional growers use different fungicides, so effective two ounces treats an acre. the same spray rigs are used for vines as well as apples, the cloud just drifts farther cause the lower plants catch less. my neighbor is kind enough to do it usually when the wind is low and prevailing away from me into the vineyard. even then the spray is visible tens of feet to the windward side and hundreds of feet with the wind.
estrella3210
04-28-2013, 03:50 PM
Some of us took it upon ourselves to go to the Sebastopol Farmer's Market today and set up a table to get more signatures for this petition. We got 85 signatures with very little effort, folks were coming up to our table begging to sign. I envision this movement taking it to the bridge by enacting legislation along similar lines of many other counties in our state that have created 1/4 mile buffer zones of protection for schools and other vulnerable populations.
Please check out this link regarding Tulare County's reforms and see page 12 to view Sonoma County's current restrictions (which includes 1 fumigant that has been given a 250 foot buffer zone, this existing restriction barely touches the surface of what the vineyard industry in this county and in this neighborhood has gotten permits to use):
https://www.pesticidereform.org/downloads/SchoolProtectionZones.pdf
(https://www.pesticidereform.org/downloads/SchoolProtectionZones.pdf)
As Shepherd said to me earlier today, 'We are merely vessels for a movement that is happening beyond us.'
Our children WILL be protected.
In solidarity, Estrella
Shepherd
04-28-2013, 04:44 PM
In response to Pace's legitimate question below, it is a fact that Paul Hobbs is the industrial vintner who has made the application to convert apple orchards into a vineyard. He is an internationally--known and active wine baron, who has been fined at least three times here in Sonoma County alone. Paying small fines for breaking the law are usual business expenses for such criminals, who pay much bigger amounts to politicians to support their dirty deeds.
We were at the Sebastopol Farmers Market today and after less than a week of work have nearly 150 signatures on the online petition and as many on the hardcopy petition. The signers include residents of Norway, Belgium, Poland, the United Kingdom, and Saudia Arabia, though most of the signers are from Sonoma County. Perhaps it could be said that we have a wine terrorist in our county, who would not think twice about the pesticide drift that would endanger the children, parents, teachers, staff, and neighbors (of which I am one) in the Twin Hills area.
If you have not already, please sign the petition below:
I don't know him (Paul Hobbs) personally though I do know OF him, who in this county doesn't? I had not heard before that he was the one doing the conversion. Is this hearsay or fact?
zenekar
04-28-2013, 08:07 PM
There is also something to be said about growing NUTRITIOUS FOOD, such as apples, rather than destroying habitat – including human habitat – to grow grapes for ALCOHOL.
...
I am having a difficult time understanding why this is even an issue at all.
rossmen
04-29-2013, 10:08 PM
fortunately i don't live next to hobbs, just another vineyard in north sebastopol. this year, for the first time it is plowed every other row. must be the hot new thing in vineyard management.
i get it why grapes have replaced apples. similar yealds, investment and work, 10 times the price per ton. this price is biased mostly on marketing. the reality is the wine industry is vulnerable to public perception. the more the word gets out about wine makers like the dastardly hobbs, the potent chemicals used to protect the crop, and the environmental harm from forest conversion and water diversion, the more the industry will shift practices. if they don't, drinking wine might become as uncool as wearing fur coats : )
Living next to the infamous Paul Hobbs must be a challenge. According to his reputation, he is at the far end of the unscrupulous grower's spectrum. There are many reasonable grape growers who aren't interested in increasing production at any cost. Maybe if financial incentives were given to these farmers like they have for solar power they would start farming organically and dry farming. As for Paul Hobbs' young vineyard being mowed every other row my guess is that he irrigates. Dry farmed grapes have to struggle when young due to their still shallow roots and can't afford to compete with other plants also seeking moisture. Maybe BW was speaking from his own experience with dry farming.
Shepherd
04-30-2013, 07:48 AM
If you have not already signed the petition that follows, please do so as soon as you can and circulate it widely. Tomorrow afternoon a group of some eight mothers from the five schools that would be directly impacted by the vineyard conversion and their allies will be meeting with the Ag Commissioner and other authorities. Paper copies of the petition are also available. I will be taking some to the Sebastopol Grange meeting this evening on Highway 12, if you want paper copies; I should be there from around 5:30 to 8:30. We can also send you a PDF version to print out. The PD has contacted the mothers leading this struggle and an article is scheduled for tomorrow or soon.
I like what Zenekar says below, which reminds me that "an apple a day keeps the doctor away," whereas an immoderate amount of alcohol planting and consumption leads to the death of humans and others. We already have too many vineyards in Sonoma County and too much power in the bloated wine industry. It is time to rally around the mothers and back off the further expansion of the industrial wine industry and contraction of food farming.
Here is the link to online petition:
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/263/347/984/stop-corporate-alcohol-firms-from-endangering-children-and-the-environment/#sign
There is also something to be said about growing NUTRITIOUS FOOD, such as apples, rather than destroying habitat – including human habitat – to grow grapes for ALCOHOL.
...
Shepherd
04-30-2013, 08:24 AM
The following article on Paul Hobbs as a "clearcutting crook" was posted on Wacco on June 3, 2011. It is by Will Parish, who writes for the AVA in Mendocino county.
Paul Hobbs & Ken Wilson: Wine Country’s Clearcutting Crooks
Paul Hobbs & Ken Wilson: Wine Country’s Clearcutting Crooks (https://theava.com/)
by Will Parrish on Jun 2nd, 2011
Paul Hobbs, internationally renowned winemaker with headquarters in Sebastopol, is described in his web site biography as a “trailblazer” and “prospector.” Those are fitting designations, if not always in the ways his publicist intends. Formerly the winemaker at two of the most prestigious wineries in the country, Opus One and Simi, Hobbs currently “crafts” — to use the term of trade — numerous acclaimed vintages under his own self-titled label, also working as a consultant on 30-35 other wines at a given time, in as many as six countries spanning three continents. By advertising Hobbs’ association with their brand, those who hire him automatically see a boost in sales.
Kenneth C. Wilson, real estate capitalist and winemaker with headquarters in Healdsburg, is not the first person wine industry observers would typically associate with Hobbs. Whereas Hobbs is widely regarded for his winemaking artistry, as a veritable winemaker’s winemaker, Wilson is better known as an opportunistic investor. The latter has built his own “mini wine empire” — to quote Wines and Vines magazine —- across northern Sonoma and southern Mendocino counties in recent years, largely on the strength, it seems, of superior access to wealth.
Yet, the two men’s activities are closely linked, if only by a single factor: their zeal for deforestation. The practice of clear-cutting is common to vineyard development across the Central Coast, North Bay, and North Coast regions of California. The land clearances Hobbs and Wilson have conducted stand out, however, largely owing to an impressive feat: Each man ran afoul of the law, in spite of the preferential treatment the state and county regulatory apparatus has for so long bestowed on the wine industry.
During the end of April through the beginning of May, Hobbs oversaw a 10-acre clear-cut on a 160-acre parcel he owns in Pocket Canyon, just east of Guerneville, known as Hillick Ranch. The deforestation took place even though Hobbs had not established an erosion control plan nor set forth what portion of the property he would place in a conservation easement, as he was required to do under an agreement with the California Department of Forestry. He also had not bothered to obtain a grading permit or use permit from the County of Sonoma.
It appears that Hobbs had grown tired of waiting for the permitting process to play out, so therefore took a gamble that he would not face any punitive measures if he took matters into his own hands, speeding things along toward installing yet another parcel of grapes to source for his wines.
The clear-cut is in close proximity to Pocket Canyon Creek, where erosion would — and perhaps already did — further damage this fragile waterway, thereby only adding to the cumulative destruction activities of this sort have wrought on the Russian River basin, where the sight of a living fish grows increasingly rare. Owing to complaints by residents, a forester for the Sonoma-Napa-Lake unit of CalFire named Kimberly Sone came to the site and issued a stop-work order based on Hobbs’ failure to attain the adequate permits.
“CAL FIRE was not notified regarding the start up of timber operations as required by the Forest Practice Act,” Sone stated via e-mail. “After conducting a field inspection and reviewing the plan, I requested the Licensed Timber Operator and Registered Professional Forester to stop operations.”
She also stated, reassuringly, that “logs are on the ground and logging debris is still on-site, thereby reducing significant amounts of erosion.” That would seem to be a tacit acknowledgment, however, that some significant degree of erosion has either occurred or is in danger of occurring.
The Hillick Ranch clear-cut has even escalated into a rare instance of county officials being at odds with a vineyard developer. John Roberts, a member of the Sonoma County Water Coalition and the Atascadero-Green Valley Creek Watershed Council, is one of various West County residents who has been active in trying to put a halt to Hobbs’ clear-cutting. Roberts met with Sonoma County Fifth District Supervisor Efren Carrillo on May 18th to provide him documentation on the environmental destruction Hobbs and other vineyard developers have wrought, as well as try to compel him to take action to rein in the star winemaker.
“Efren was aware of the situation and was able to say that based on the visit by officials, enforceable actions took place on the property,” Roberts says. “Since it is under investigation, he could say no more, except that he and many others are very unhappy with Hobbs.”
Hobbs’ action is especially significant because it is the first serious test of Sonoma County’s Timber Conversion Ordinance, which ostensibly governs felling of designated timber land to make way for winegrapes and other “agriculture.” The Board of Supervisors passed the ordinance in 2006. It requires that all timber-to-agriculture conversion projects set aside at least 75 percent of a given parcel in a conservation easement. That’s as opposed to an outright ban on such conversions, as regional environmentalists originally sought. The conservation easement provision is widely seen as having been shaped by Premier Pacific Vineyards, the massive vineyard development corporation run by the infamous William Hill and Richard Wollack, who are attempting to clear approximately 1,700 acres of forested land in the Gualala River basin, on a 20,000-acre parcel, to install miles of grapes.
Ironically, Hobbs has been in the spotlight across recent weeks not because of his precedent-setting Hillick Ranch clear-cut, but because of his court-sanctioned fleecing of Sebastopol neighbor John Jenkel. The saga has attracted a pair of stories in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, though the North Coast’s paper of record has failed to mention several significant details of the story, while framing others far too leniently toward Hobbs. Jenkel’s side of the story, though entirely absent from the pages of the PD, is worth considering in detail, particularly since it sheds considerable light on the sort of mindset that drives people like Hobbs, whose sense of entitlement seems to be so overwrought that it even surpasses his renown as a winemaker.
A grove of roughly 60 douglas firs stood adjacent to the property line shared by Hobbs and Jenkel just outside of Sebastopol. A few years ago, Hobbs drilled a well roughly 200_ from Jenkel’s existing well, presumably to nourish the thirsty grapes he had planted on the site. Jenkel had a sand filter installed by a pump co. that was supposed to purge itself on a periodic basis. Soon after Hobbs drilled his well, Jenkel’s well started drawing sand for the first time in its many years of service.
The filter malfunctioned, however, and water ran continuously for a few months, with the deluge seriously damaging the root systems of two trees on the Hobbs parcel and affecting six others. A tree blew down and clipped a corner of one of Hobbs’ buildings. Hobbs then took what was apparently, in his mind, the logical next step: he removed the entire grove of trees, claiming all of them were compromised . That’s in spite of the fact that Jenkel had already identified and corrected the malfunction in his pump.
Next, Hobbs sued Jenkel for the cost he incurred in removing the trees. Not only did the judge side with Hobbs, but the winemaker received a judgment of $360,000 — more than twice what he originally sought. Jenkel, who sought to defend himself in the case, is notoriously clumsy in court, making him easy picking for Hobbs. The winemaker has since poured a foundation 50 feet in length for future buildings exactly where the doug fir grove previously stood.
cont. at https://theava.com/archives/11113
Sara S
04-30-2013, 08:35 AM
It's true, isn't it, that in the Napa Valley they placed a moratorium on any new vineyards years ago, because the industry had nearly destroyed the valley's ecological system?
Shepherd
04-30-2013, 10:42 AM
Following are some of the public comments on the petition site by some of the parents and staff at the five schools on Watertrough who would be impacted by Paul Hobbs making a vineyard conversion near those schools. They need our support.
Please sign the petition that follows:
https://www.thepetitionsite.com/263/347/984/stop-corporate-alcohol-firms-from-endangering-children-and-the-environment/#sign
Hobbs is internationally-notorious for his disregard of local culture and the environment. He has vineyards in at least half a dozen countries, which is why those signing the petition include people in Norway, Belgium, Poland, and the United Kingdom. This campaign has been happening for only about a week.
Shepherd
Ms. Lori Gatmaitan, CA
Apr 28, 18:41
# 145
My daughter goes to this school and it will be tragic if this comes to pass. It is my understanding that when the orchard took into account the devastating effects of the chemicals used to grow apples and changed their practices to organic, the children's health at Apple Blossom improved. That should be enough of a reason to keep the orchard there as organic. We do not need more vineyards.
Mrs. Michelle Muse, CA
Apr 28, 18:35
# 144
We have children at Apple Blossom and Orchard View Schools. Our children will be within feet of herbicide and pesticide application. The dust and debris from conversion will saturate our school buildings. The buildings are literally within 50 feet of the perimeter of the orchard, and the parking spaces are within one foot of the fence. The children eat lunch outside in the summer, and will be directly exposed to drift as well as runoff from the vineyard in the winter. Presently, there are no herbicides sprayed on the fenceline. Hobbs Winery makes a practice of pesticide application. This is not acceptable so close to our children's school. We will consider switching to another school if this happens. Sincerely, The Muse Family
Ms. Barbara Stockton, CA
Apr 28, 09:35
# 128
As the Director of a preschool on the Apple Blossom Campus I am utterly appalled that this development might occur. One of the primary draws to our preschool is the environmental consciousness we promote. We are a Certified Natural Wildlife Habitat! How can we ever teach our children to care for this planet if what we say and what we do are polar opposites? The highest priority and obligation of all is to protect our children. Money should never trump their health. This will harm our children, not to mention the environment. Please, do your job!!!!
Ms. Amy Taganashi, CA
Apr 26, 21:20
# 69
My two kids go to Apple Blossom and under no circumstances do I want them or their classmates exposed to additional agricultural pesticides. How can the school continue to be called Apple Blossom if there are not apple trees to be found nearby?
Name not displayed, CA
Apr 26, 09:24
# 49
I was first told about this vineyard by my daughter who attends Apple Blossom school. We are both shocked the wineries would go this far and without concern for anyone but their investors.
Pace
04-30-2013, 02:44 PM
Yes I think you are right.
fortunately i don't live next to hobbs, just another vineyard in north sebastopol. this year, for the first time it is plowed every other row. must be the hot new thing in vineyard management.
i get it why grapes have replaced apples. similar yealds, investment and work, 10 times the price per ton. this price is biased mostly on marketing. the reality is the wine industry is vulnerable to public perception. the more the word gets out about wine makers like the dastardly hobbs, the potent chemicals used to protect the crop, and the environmental harm from forest conversion and water diversion, the more the industry will shift practices. if they don't, drinking wine might become as uncool as wearing fur coats : )
spam1
04-30-2013, 07:46 PM
It's true, isn't it, that in the Napa Valley they placed a moratorium on any new vineyards years ago, because the industry had nearly destroyed the valley's ecological system?
More likely, existing winery owners didn't want new wineries to compete with their market for Napa valley wine.
Barry
04-30-2013, 08:09 PM
Sounds like an (un?) holy coalition! :smkdev::Jesus: I wonder if it could work here.... :waccosun:
It's true, isn't it, that in the Napa Valley they placed a moratorium on any new vineyards years ago, because the industry had nearly destroyed the valley's ecological system?
More likely, existing winery owners didn't want new wineries to compete with their market for Napa valley wine.
estrella3210
04-30-2013, 09:01 PM
"Worse Than a Clearcut" 4 minute movie about clear-cutting in Sonoma County to create vineyards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIrJRc4P94Q
Shepherd
04-30-2013, 09:43 PM
PLEASE FORWARD
The following article by the pro-wine industry PD is better than I had expected. "Any publicity, even bad publicity, can be helpful" is a classic statement in the Public Relations field. This article opens a space for various important developments--many letters to the PD editor and better articles in publications such as waccobb.net (https://waccobb.net/), Sonoma West, Sonoma County Gazette, and the North Bay Bohemian and radio stations such as KRCB and KPFA. Paul Hobbs is perhaps the most notorious "bad apple" vintner in Sonoma County, so keeping his operation as a target would be essential.
In the following article, three anti-vineyard conversion mothers are quoted and only the Ag. Commissioner, a Winery spokeswoman, and a school official. Even short letters are important, even if they do not get published, because they encourage editors to publish other similar letters. My experience is that the online responses (which can be anonymous) are less important than the published letters, which are held to a higher standard. Be sure to include your phone number, in case the editor wants to verify that you wrote it.
Since parents only found about about this vineyard conversion a week ago, they have done a lot already. This evening there was a conference call in which a dozen people participated to develop strategy. Tomorrow around eight people will meet with the Ag. Commissioner and others. There are currently well over 300 people who have signed online and paper petitions against Paul Hobbs' vineyard conversion of an apple orchard near five schools on Watertrough in the Sebastopol countryside. The online petition is at the following link: https://www.thepetitionsite.com/263/347/984/stop-corporate-alcohol-firms-from-endangering-children-and-the-environment/#sign. Please forward it widely, even beyond Sonoma County, since Hobbs is active in six countries.
This is a winnable struggle, in my opinion,
Shepherd
By MELODY KARPINSKI (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/x-msg://827/personalia/MKARPINSKI)
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
Published: Tuesday, April 30, 2013
A plan to convert a Sebastopol apple orchard into a vineyard is causing concern among parents whose children attend several schools bordering the property.
Many parents learned of the project last week when a house and barn on the Watertrough Road property were demolished, said Christine Dzilvelis, whose daughter attends nearby Orchard View School.
“Word spread like wildfire and within two or three days we had dozens and dozens of families on board (opposed) to this,” said Dzilvelis.
Paul Hobbs Winery purchased the property in 2012 and applied to develop the vineyard in March. The property is situated across from several schools including Apple Blossom School, Tree House Hollow Pre-school, Orchard View School and SunRidge Charter School.
Parents started an online petition seeking to halt the vineyard April 25, garnering more than 170 signatures by Tuesday.
“Nobody wants their child exposed to something that could hurt them,” said Dzilvelis. “This is hundreds of students and not just one school.”
Agriculture Commissioner Tony Linegar said the permit for the vineyard project is still under review, but the winery plans to use methods that would actually reduce the amount of pesticide substances drifting off the property.
“The type of equipment used for this conventional orchard leads to much more potential for drift,” Linegar said. “The fact that a vineyard is going in exponentially reduces the potential for pesticide exposure.”
Tara Sharp, a spokeswoman for Paul Hobbs Winery, said the winery’s goal is to be “good stewards of the land.”
Paul Hobbs Winery has come under fire in the past for not obtaining the proper permits for some of the work it has done on other properties purchased for vineyard use, including clear-cutting trees.
The vineyard will be maintained sustainably, and the winery is drafting a written agreement with the school district to perform no work during school hours, Sharp said.
Parents remain unconvinced.
“I think there’s a lack of communication between the agricultural community and the residents within the area,” said Nicole Baum, the mother of a SunRidge School kindergartner.
Baum said part of the reason her family migrated north from Southern California was to find an environment with cleaner air.
Twin Hills Union School District superintendent Barbara Bickford confirmed the district is in talks with both the agricultural commissioner and the winery to discuss neighbors’ concerns.
“I am very confident we will continue to provide a safe and healthy environment for our students and teachers,” said Bickford.
The winery will be using wettable sulfur which is considered a “soft” pesticide, resulting in significantly less product going into the ground, said Sharp.
The winery also plans to install organic trellised apple trees, and hopes to work with educators to allow students the opportunity to help harvest the apples, Sharp said.
“Hobbs understands how important the orchard and the identity of the apples is to the school’s namesake,” said Linegar. “I think it’d be a great learning experience for the kids.”
Linegar will meet with the school district and parents at 5 p.m. this evening at his office to discuss concerns over the vineyard project.
“We’re just concerned parents,” said Estrella Phegan, who serves on the pre-school board and is the mother of a pre-schooler. “We’re trying to find out (whether) what we have now is better or worse than what we will be getting.”
eeeeeeow
05-02-2013, 09:54 AM
Composite of Paul Hobbs in front of Jenkel property. A bit more accurate than the usual vineyard setting background.
21661
Composite of Paul Hobbs
dominus
05-02-2013, 10:27 AM
Paul Hobbs received a judgement for $360,000 against John Jenkel. The story states that was twice the amount he was suing for. How much could it cost to take down 6 Douglas Firs, presumably not $160,000? Even with legal fees factored, 160K seems insane not to mention 360K. I can't help but think that what Paul Hobbs did was premeditated and borders on elder abuse. I enjoy a glass of wine with my dinner on occasion but this kind of thing has begun to turn me off to drinking it.
Paul Hobbs & Ken Wilson: Wine Country’s Clearcutting Crooks
(https://theava.com/archives/11113)by Will Parrish on Jun 2nd, 2011
eeeeeeow
05-02-2013, 11:22 AM
I don't remember the amounts, but Hobbs took that money to public auction when the property went up. When no one showed, Hobbs won the auction for a few thousand dollars. Please do the research, as I'm not able to do it at the moment. But it was, from where I stand, a crime the way this property was transferred. It is something worth getting out there.
[There's lots more about that here on WaccoBB.net (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?79715-Some-Pictures-of-Hobbs-s-Takeover-of-the-Jenkel-Property&highlight=hobbs) - Barry]
Bear in mind, this guy is not alone. There are many like him ready to pounce on available properties. I have, and will be posting more info on my blog: thegravenstein.blogspot.com. I will be posting more on this. There are a few petitions floating around around and letters to be written. Please make your voices heard.
Paul Hobbs received a judgement for $360,000 against John Jenkel. The story states that was twice the amount he was suing for. How much could it cost to take down 6 Douglas Firs, presumably not $160,000? Even with legal fees factored, 160K seems insane not to mention 360K. I can't help but think that what Paul Hobbs did was premeditated and borders on elder abuse. I enjoy a glass of wine with my dinner on occasion but this kind of thing has begun to turn me off to drinking it.
Shepherd
05-02-2013, 12:43 PM
What a great composite photo, revealing the real situation. This thread has been very informative. I now hope that some of you will write letters to the PD editor after its article yesterday and to Sonoma West after its article today. Such letters will expand the readership of diverse points of view. If this struggle is to be won, it will be done so partly in the court of public opinion.
Composite of Paul Hobbs in front of Jenkel property. A bit more accurate than the usual vineyard setting background.
thank you for the petition! I have forwarded it on to my mailing list
as an orchard view family I am devistated by what I have learned today regarding the conversion
as I am anytime I drive down the country roads of the west county and see the trees being slaughtered for vines
monoculture is not the answer
taurusmoon
05-03-2013, 10:12 AM
food for thought... has the topic of honeybees been mentioned??
grapes are not bee pollinated and apples are!!
if we continue to loose our orchards, the bees loose their food and we loose the bees!!!
diversity is key!!
Barry
05-03-2013, 12:16 PM
There's a new article in the Sonoma West (https://www.sonomawest.com) by David Abbot about this issue.
Vineyard conversion at Twin Hills District in the works (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/vineyard-conversion-at-twin-hills-district-in-the-works/article_cca3b12e-b2aa-11e2-ba80-0019bb2963f4.html)
Here's a a couple of salient sections:
According to the Ag Commissioners office, as long as the vineyard application conforms to the county’s Vineyard and Orchard Site Development Ordinance (VESCO) standards, the project will be allowed to go forward.
“They’ve submitted the original plan but we sent it back and asked for modifications. The second set is being studied,” Ag Commissioner Tony Linegar said. “It’s a ministerial process, so as long as they meet VESCO standards … they don’t need to go through a CEQA process.”
The ministerial process allows “permitted use” approved or denied based on compliance with “fixed, measurable standards” (VESCO).
“It’s like: here’s a box. If it fits into the box, it’s a go,” Linegar said.
Linegar said that the conversion from apples to grapes may actually lessen the use of pesticides and other chemicals and may also reduce water use and the chances for erosion.
“The types of equipment used for apple trees tosses (pesticides) into the air,” he said. “The types of pesticides used for the coddling moth — the worms you find in an apple — are more toxic than what’s used on vineyards.”
...
“Hobbs will be using wettable sulfur and Roundup. The way those are used is not prone to drift,” he said. “There won’t be dusting or use of pesticides when school is in session. ... He understands the relationship with apples and is going out of his way to work with the community.”
THUSD Trustee Maben Rainwater wants assurances that Hobbs is actually going to follow through with the promises he is proposing though.
“As a parent and trustee, we need to have a very good idea of the implications of what the farming practices are going to be,” Rainwater said. “They say it’s going to be 90 percent organic. It’s one thing for them to say that. We need to make sure this isn’t hearsay.”
He also wants to be sure that water issues will be addressed and that Hobbs will not use chemicals to kill off the trees.
Peace Voyager
05-03-2013, 01:00 PM
The public auction was not public at all; I was there. They moved the location and only Hobbs folks were informed. There is so much more to the back story of how it all happened, I hope to have both old and new information out soon.
There are several points in all of this we must break down and counter, because it is certain to get worse if we don't.
So even if Hobbs grows organically, that does not remediate all the social and environmental atrocities this man and brand are responsible for.
BTW Sebastopol's Whole Foods has Hobbs' Cross Barn label on their shelf; I'm talking to the manager today, and corporate WF to follow. We've been down this road before; surprised to find they think we have a short memory.
How about you? Do you look for these brands at your stores and restaurants? Do you tell those in charge you prefer not to give your business to establishments which carry the Hobbs brands?
How many old growth trees and historic barns were sacrificed for Hobbs' investors' gains? What will it take to end the West County wine grape glut and impacts not limited to: clear cuts, & siphoning of our ground and surface water, erosion, imbalance of the natural habitat through the deluge of chemicals, etc.?
The Ag Commissioner, DA, and majority of Supervisors and Planning Commissioners appear to be under their influence, so we've got a lot of work to do.
Being able to build international support gives me hope it can be done. Thanks to everyone who is taking mindful action.:waccosun:
I don't remember the amounts, but Hobbs took that money to public auction when the property went up. When no one showed, Hobbs won the auction for a few thousand dollars. Please do the research, as I'm not able to do it at the moment. But it was, from where I stand, a crime the way this property was transferred. It is something worth getting out there.
[There's lots more about that here on WaccoBB.net (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?79715-Some-Pictures-of-Hobbs-s-Takeover-of-the-Jenkel-Property&highlight=hobbs) - Barry]
Bear in mind, this guy is not alone. There are many like him ready to pounce on available properties. I have, and will be posting more info on my blog: thegravenstein.blogspot.com. I will be posting more on this. There are a few petitions floating around around and letters to be written. Please make your voices heard.
Peace Voyager
05-03-2013, 01:10 PM
There's a new article in the Sonoma West (https://www.sonomawest.com) by David Abbot about this issue.
Vineyard conversion at Twin Hills District in the works (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/vineyard-conversion-at-twin-hills-district-in-the-works/article_cca3b12e-b2aa-11e2-ba80-0019bb2963f4.html)
...
“Hobbs will be using wettable sulfur and Roundup. The way those are used is not prone to drift,” he said. “There won’t be dusting or use of pesticides when school is in session. ... He understands the relationship with apples and is going out of his way to work with the community.”
Roundup More Toxic Than Officially Declared - New Study
GM Watch, February 21, 2013
Straight to the Source (https://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/52-2013/14654-roundup-more-toxic-than-officially-declared-new-study)
For related articles and more information, please visit OCA's Environment and Climate Resource Center page (https://www.organicconsumers.org/environment.cfm) and our Genetic Engineering page (https://www.organicconsumers.org/gelink.cfm) and our Millions Against Monsanto page (https://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/)
In a new research(1) published in the highly ranked scientific journal Toxicology, Robin Mesnage, Benoit Bernay and Professor Gilles-Eric Seralini, from the University of Caen, France, have proven (from a study of nine Roundup-like herbicides) that the most toxic compound is not glyphosate, which is the substance the most assessed by regulatory authorities, but a compound that is not always listed on the label, called POE-15. Modern methods were applied at the cellular level (on three human cell lines), and mass spectrometry (studies on the nature of molecules). This allowed the researchers to identify and analyse the effects of these compounds.
Context: Glyphosate is supposed to be the "active ingredient" of Roundup, the most widely used herbicide in the world, and it is present in a large group of Roundup-like herbicides. It has been safety tested on mammals for the purposes of regulatory risk assessment. But the commercial formulations of these pesticides as they are sold and used contain added ingredients (adjuvants). These are often classified confidential and described as "inerts". However, they help to stabilize the chemical compound glyphosate and help it to penetrate plants, in the manner of corrosive detergents. The formulated herbicides (including Roundup) can affect all living cells, especially human cells. This danger is overlooked because glyphosate and Roundup are treated as the same by industry and regulators in long-term studies. The supposed non-toxicity of glyphosate serves as a basis for the commercial release of Roundup. The health and environmental agencies and pesticide companies assess the long-term effects on mammals of glyphosate alone, and not the full formulation. The details of this regulatory assessment are jealously kept confidential by companies like Monsanto and health and environmental agencies.
Conclusion and consequences: This study demonstrates that all the glyphosate-based herbicides tested are more toxic than glyphosate alone, and explains why. Thus their regulatory assessments and the maximum residue levels authorized in the environment, food, and feed, are erroneous. A drink (such as tap water contaminated by Roundup residues) or a food made with a Roundup tolerant GMO (like a transgenic soya or corn) were already demonstrated as toxic in the recent rat feeding study (2) from Prof. Séralini team. The researchers have also published responses to critics of the study (3). This new research explains and confirms the scientific results of the rat feeding study. ..
Peace Voyager
05-03-2013, 01:15 PM
Do you want the City of Sebastopol to put more of this in our watersheds? Then tell them to mind their own no-herbicide policy or more city resources will be spent on this substance going down the city's drains and into the creeks and laguna.
Our county as a whole needs to re-examine the consequences of Round Up, etc.
Roundup More Toxic Than Officially Declared - New Study
GM Watch, February 21, 2013
Straight to the Source (https://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/52-2013/14654-roundup-more-toxic-than-officially-declared-new-study)
taurusmoon
05-03-2013, 01:19 PM
There was a child went fourth every day,
And the first object he look’d upon, that object he became; *
And that object became part of him for the day, or a certain part of the day, or for many years, or stretching cycles of years. *
**
The early lilacs became part of this child, *
And grass, and white and red morning-glories, and white and red clover, and the song of the phoebe-bird, *********5
And the Third-month lambs, and the sow’s pink-faint litter, and the mare’s foal, and the cow’s calf, *
And the noisy brood of the barn-yard, or by the mire of the pond-side, *
And the fish suspending themselves so curiously below there—and the beautiful curious liquid, *
And the water-plants with their graceful flat heads—all became part of him. *
**
The field-sprouts of Fourth-month and Fifth-month became part of him;
Winter-grain sprouts, and those of the light-yellow corn, and the esculent roots of the garden, *
And the apple-trees cover’d with blossoms, and the fruit afterward...
Walt Whitman
Peace Voyager
05-03-2013, 01:29 PM
Paul Hobbs received a judgement for $360,000 against John Jenkel. The story states that was twice the amount he was suing for. How much could it cost to take down 6 Douglas Firs, presumably not $160,000? Even with legal fees factored, 160K seems insane not to mention 360K. I can't help but think that what Paul Hobbs did was premeditated and borders on elder abuse. I enjoy a glass of wine with my dinner on occasion but this kind of thing has begun to turn me off to drinking it.
They paid $61,000 for property worth close to $3,000,000 at the time, which was close to being paid off. In the misguided eyes of Hobbs and the court, Jenkel still owes them the remaining nearly $300,000.
I will again remind you that Efren Carillo did nothing to stop this, and only long after the fact, when a public outrage was underway did he pretend to take action. This is why Hobbs is still able to buy and develop parcel after parcel of our county for wine grapes, which will not be served to the school kids for lunch, or for sale at our Farmers Markets.
I wish Ernie Carpenter had worked to help Veronica Jacobi win instead of splitting the anti-Efren vote. With that lesson learned let's reach for strategic, selfless strategies for our greater good.
dominus
05-03-2013, 02:02 PM
Thank you for your post. As I understand it, VESCO is the agricultural equivalent to an EIR. It was legislated by the State of California and all grape growers are required to adhere to it's mandates. The Ag Commission is required to enforce Vesco standards and doesn't have within it's jurisdiction the capacity to turn down an Ag project if a developer is adhering to it's standards. Any rewriting of it's guidelines must occur at the State level.
One previous post suggested that the schools in question were built next to Ag zones so parents knew what they were getting. Those schools needed to built so where else were they supposed to be built? Knocking on neighbor's doors with Kozlowski's pies in an effort to be a "good neighbor" doesn't exempt Paul Hobbs from using using "Roundup" nor does it sanction his ruthless and cut-throat behavior which he's displayed on other occasions. While I don't know him myself, John Jenkel sounded very difficult to deal with but did that warrant Hobbs from extracting his land from him? I don't think so. Unfortunately, the Ag Commission's hands are tied as Hobbs has the legal right to do what he wants with his property as long as he follows the guidelines laid out by Vesco and it sounds like he's doing that.
This situation has the potential to ignite a firestorm of controversy and be the tipping point for further consideration in respect to how many acres of grape vines can and should be allowed. A feverish "land grab" has developed as a result of artificially depressed interest rates. As a consequence of this condition, I've no doubt, many counties throughout the country are experiencing the conflicts of Ag business as it butts up against the population. With that said, just because the Ag Commission is committed to Vesco doesn't mean that a united and organized group of parents, teachers, administrators, and concerned citizens shouldn't persist. They absolutely should because this could be the "perfect storm" which will change the course of the wine industry in Sonoma County and even quite possibly for the wine industry itself. Bear in mind, any change against the prevailing status-quo takes a great deal of time and effort, alot of time and effort.
...
How many old growth trees and historic barns were sacrificed for Hobbs' investors' gains? What will it take to end the West County wine grape glut and impacts not limited to: clear cuts, & siphoning of our ground and surface water, erosion, imbalance of the natural habitat through the deluge of chemicals, etc.?
sebastacat
05-03-2013, 02:41 PM
Dominus: I SO agree with you! Knocking on the neighbors' doors with Kozlowski pies in hand is, to Sebastacat at least, akin to childlike bribery. I certainly know what I would have done with that pie!
Sorry folks, but this type of approach won't work. The disingenuousness shows through all too clearly.
Espaliered apple trees? Pl-ease! This just goes to show how out of touch with west county values the developer of this project is. And I don't think that they were what the great Walt Whitman had in mind when he wrote the poem posted above by TaurusMoon.
The only thing that IS going to work is if the proponent of this project abandons this unpopular, misguided plan and sites this mega-vineyard someplace else -- oh, say, somewhere in the central valley -- and leaves the students of the six affected schools and the residents of the west county alone to live in peace and tranquility once again -- once and for all.
gardenmaniac
05-03-2013, 02:52 PM
"Never depend upon institutions or government to solve any problem. All social movements are founded by, guided by, motivated and seen through by the passion of individuals. ”
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
~ Margaret Mead
... With that said, just because the Ag Commission is committed to Vesco doesn't mean that a united and organized group of parents, teachers, administrators, and concerned citizens shouldn't persist. They absolutely should because this could be the "perfect storm" which will change the course of the wine industry in Sonoma County and even quite possibly for the wine industry itself. Bear in mind, any change against the prevailing status-quo takes a great deal of time and effort, alot of time and effort.
dominus
05-03-2013, 07:32 PM
What might happen if every willing citizen in the county agreed to plant a tree or trees as an act of protest to vineyard development?
rossmen
05-03-2013, 10:00 PM
i think hobbs is using this vineyard to rebuild his local reputation. probably not a premeditated strategy, just inspired by the moment. will he keep his promises for an "organic" apple orchard next to apple blossom with trees trained like grape vines? is his vine culture less toxic than conventional orchards and more conventional vineyards? i think he will pay more attention to his promises to adjoining schools than his troublesome neighbor and original benefactor at the home vineyard. is the ag commission sensitive to the reputation of hobbs? will wine grapes continue to dominate sonoma county agriculture for many more years?
how big would it be if paul hobbs, the international winemaker consultant famous for single vineyard vino, goes organic? or better yet biodynamic? does paul hobbs care about the future his children and their children will live in? how about all the other children?
There's a new article in the Sonoma West (https://www.sonomawest.com) by David Abbot about this issue.
Vineyard conversion at Twin Hills District in the works (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/vineyard-conversion-at-twin-hills-district-in-the-works/article_cca3b12e-b2aa-11e2-ba80-0019bb2963f4.html)