What Is Your Interpretation Of The Noise Ordinance Regarding Barking? [Archive]

Alex

01-16-2013, 11:44 AM

I have a neighbor with 4 dogs who may be reading Wacco digests and I would like to ask the community how you’d regard living next to someone with her dog barking philosophy and what you think neighborly barking tolerances should be. Noise Ordinance Code 5-126 saying that ‘...no animal owner should obstruct the reasonable and comfortable use of property by barking.....’ is somewhat up for interpretation.

I moved among a cluster of homes in an idyllic Mirabel Road neighborhood last year and was dismayed to find one neighbor who allows her dogs to bark outside as long as they want anytime all day or all night, never making any effort to stop it. The irregular but frequent 24/hr a day pockets of time range from shorter to hours.

The dog owner made her philosophy about neighborliness and dog barking clear when I called after the 4th night in a row of being awakened by the barking at 1AM or later and her actual response was... “Get over it and live in the world. Dogs bark.” {hang up}

Besides going to bed anxious every night not knowing if I’m going to have a reliable night of sleep, the hard part for me is knowing that every first bark signals the beginning of lasting for who knows how long again. It pierces right through my double pane windows and earplugs. No other nearby dog owners allow this. If I had a dog, barking would rarely last 15 seconds once in a while and never past 10PM.

A separate issue that is hard to be aware of and I'm unable to help is knowing the little dogs are being left outside all night with no shelter in freezing temps, pouring rain or damp, dense fog. Last night they were plaintively barking at 2AM+ at 35 degrees and my heart was breaking for them. I have offered to pay for a dog door, but the owner refused so all I could do was make Animal Control aware.

The dog owner has argued to me that ‘no one else cares’, but I think people don’t know their rights or are unwilling to stand up (like one long incensed but unwilling neighbor so far), and if I have to I will ask others nearby to join me in the next legal step Animal Control petition. But I’m hoping that positive change can start here with the community opinion.

How would you feel living next to such frequent anytime day or night barking knowing the dog owner does not consider it anything she has a responsibility to ever stop or prevent, and what would you consider to be reasonable and neighborly day and night dog barking tolerance according to the Noise Ordinance?

In desire of peace and a good night’s sleep, much appreciation.
Alex

Dixon

01-16-2013, 03:25 PM

Alexia, you have bent over backwards giving this inconsiderate dipshit every opportunity to be reasonable, and she has shown herself unwilling to do so. Thus she has created a situation in which your only recourse is force. If I were you, I'd get real clear on what the law is re: times of day/night, etc. and then call the police every single time her dogs violate the law. You might also consider calling the dog owner every time; being awakened in the middle of the night a few times might spark her self-interest, if not her empathy, which seems to be notably lacking. As she has shown that she can't be reasoned with, you are justified to respond with virtually any level of force necessary to solve the problem, so no need to be reticent anymore.

Marty M

01-16-2013, 03:46 PM

Hello Alexia,

Incessant barking is definitely annoying and disturbs our sleep.

Please go to the Humane Society on Hwy. 12 and ask them for advise about this.

I think that if you report this to So Co Animal Control, they will come out and talk to the owner. But you may not want to do this as a first approach. I don't think it is against the law for people to have dogs that bark. As long as they are fenced (or chained), fed and watered, the county doesn't require much.

It is my experience that dogs left outside, bark at night because that is when all the wild critters are out and about. The dogs will bark at every passing racoon, skunk, opossum or river otter that happens by (fox, bobcat and mountain lion are more discrete).

Dogs left outside will also bark if their owner is not home and they are lonely. Many people who live in the country and have dogs are really clueless. Unfortunately owners of barking dogs are seldom bothered by their own dogs barking.

I would never leave my dogs outside at night, because I do not want them to bother the wildlife or the neighbors. Actually I sometimes need to be firm with them. They would love nothing better than to go out and bark at the wildlife. It's great sport.

I hope this can work out for you.
Marty

sharingwisdom

01-16-2013, 05:57 PM

First I want to say how compassionate and caring you are about the dogs and the whole situation. It seems you've done all you could to communicate what is going for you with little care from the owner of the dogs. The person's response was curt, minimizing and in disregard of the situation.

I've also lived in an area where a dog barked a great deal of the time. I called animal control and wrote complaints. It stopped...I suppose after enough warnings, the person did something about it or they moved away. I hope you continue to move forward in your plans to take action and connect with other neighbors.

The A Team

01-16-2013, 09:14 PM

Alex
I empathize with your plight and agree with Marty's suggestions.
I have 2 close by neighbors/ houses with dogs that bark incessantly. I have asked them to get electronic bark collars, the kind that emit a sound the dog hears. Even though this is not a financial stretch for any of them, they all refused.
IMO It is not unreasonable after your kind requests are denied, to call animal control. I have done so in the past.There is no way to "get over" noise pollution.

This time around I've resorted to earphones with music or earplugs at night. Also air filters can work well as white noise machines.

Andrea

Shandi

01-16-2013, 11:01 PM

I like your suggestion, and I've done similar things when I've been awakened at unreasonable hours by partiers at 2 am. Payback was easy because they were right next door in a townhouse. I'm an early riser, so Sunday morning, when I woke at 6am, I blasted music with the stereo facing an open window near their bedroom. Their future parties were much more toned down by a reasonable hour. I used the same technique when another next door neighbor years before, had started up their mower at 7am on a Sunday morning. They got the loud music the next morning at 6am. Sometimes people need to experience what it's like to be on the other end of it.

The problem with calling is that you might be successful only once, and then they may just turn their phone off at night. And approaching in person in the middle of the night could be dangerous.

It seems like the dogs are in an abusive situation, so I'd take pictures, document the barking by recording, indicating time and date, and show this to Animal Control. I think they need some kind of proof before stepping in.

We never know who are neighbors are going to be, even in a beautiful high end neighborhood. Inconsiderate people are everywhere. I feel very fortunate to be in a mobile home park where it's always peaceful and quiet, even though many residents have dogs.

Alexia, you have bent over backwards giving this inconsiderate dipshit every opportunity to be reasonable, and she has shown herself unwilling to do so. Thus she has created a situation in which your only recourse is force. If I were you, I'd get real clear on what the law is re: times of day/night, etc. and then call the police every single time her dogs violate the law. You might also consider calling the dog owner every time; being awakened in the midddle of the night a few times might spark her self-interest, if not her empathy, which seems to be notably lacking. As she has shown that she can't be reasoned with, you are justified to respond with virtually any level of force necessary to solve the problem, so no need to be reticent anymore.

Alex

01-16-2013, 11:13 PM

<br>
Alexia, you have bent over backwards giving this inconsiderate dipshit every opportunity to be reasonable, and she has shown herself unwilling to do so. Thus she has created a situation in which your only recourse is force. If I were you, I'd get real clear on what the law is re: times of day/night, etc. and then call the police every single time her dogs violate the law. You might also consider calling the dog owner every time; being awakened in the midddle of the night a few times might spark her self-interest, if not her empathy, which seems to be notably lacking. As she has shown that she can't be reasoned with, you are justified to respond with virtually any level of force necessary to solve the problem, so no need to be reticent anymore.

Thanks for the straight talk, you are ethically correct, but the police refuse to respond to dog barking calls even though the barking is technically breaking the law, and the law is vaguely stated. That's why I was asking for the community to show this woman their opinion on how they'd define 'breaking' the noise ordinance. What amount of barking crosses the line? Hour of the day? Length of time? Frequency?

But she probably won't care and the level of force necessary is going to be a slow legal system.

Or you! Can I hire you to do some serious barking back? :-)

Alex

01-16-2013, 11:24 PM

<br>
Hello Alexia,

Incessant barking is definitely annoying and disturbs our sleep.

Please go to the Humane Society on Hwy. 12 and ask them for advise about this.

I think that if you report this to So Co Animal Control, they will come out and talk to the owner. But you may not want to do this as a first approach. I don't think it is against the law for people to have dogs that bark. As long as they are fenced (or chained), fed and watered, the county doesn't require much.

It is my experience that dogs left outside, bark at night because that is when all the wild critters are out and about. The dogs will bark at every passing racoon, skunk, opossum or river otter that happens by (fox, bobcat and mountain lion are more discrete).

Dogs left outside will also bark if their owner is not home and they are lonely. Many people who live in the country and have dogs are really clueless. Unfortunately owners of barking dogs are seldom bothered by their own dogs barking.

I would never leave my dogs outside at night, because I do not want them to bother the wildlife or the neighbors. Actually I sometimes need to be firm with them. They would love nothing better than to go out and bark at the wildlife. It's great sport.

I hope this can work out for you.
Marty

Thanks Marty. Yes, these dogs are left outside in a fenced yard, lonely, bored and were desperate to come inside when I visited. And you're right, they bark constantly and the owner told me she 'doesn't hear them'!

I have already had long conversations with Animal Control who have visited the dog owner twice, but she’s ignoring their notices.

There are legal next steps, but this was my last ditch effort to try and get her to see public opinion and get it together, but maybe this was a hopeless long shot. Yes, she’ll lose in court if I have to go there, Animal Control has given me clear instructions on how to proceed and will testify on my behalf.

Maybe I’ve been lucky to have never had this extreme of a neighbor before, I’m just a bit in shock at the arrogant fu live with it attitude about such reckless imposing of 24/hr day noise on all your neighbors. It's been far more my experience that you are the norm and she is a rare exception.

Peacemaker

01-17-2013, 12:04 AM

Seems to me that the primary issue is that the dogs are being neglected, therefore they are barking to try to get the attention of whomever can change their situation. Personally, I am willing to hear dogs barking for about a minute, unless there is something important happening that is causing them to issue a warning. In your situation, it appears that your neighbor is neglecting the care of the dogs. Hopefully, ASPCA or Animal Control authorities can be of assistance to you.

Dixon

01-17-2013, 02:19 AM

...the level of force necessary is going to be a slow legal system.
Or you! Can I hire you to do some serious barking back? :-)
I'm afraid I'm not much of a barker, (though if the money's good, I'll learn!), but I do have some CDs of very loud, grating music I could loan you...

Shandi

01-17-2013, 06:19 AM

I'd record the actual barking, as you build your case...and play back at best times for most impact. This would also be proof to back up your claim...besides the obvious satisfaction that comes from revenge. In my mind this can seriously deteriorate not only your right to live with an acceptable noise level, but also your mental health.

I'm afraid I'm not much of a barker, (though if the money's good, I'll learn!), but I do have some CDs of very loud, grating music I could loan you...

tommy

01-17-2013, 08:48 AM

If I'm not mistaken, Sonoma County has a dog ordinance, whereby when a neighbor makes a complaint about a dog, a County Animal Employee will visit the neighbor with the dog, and advise them of the ordinance. If the barking continues, call the County again, request a 2nd visit, and which point some punitive measures or fines can be applied.

Good luck.

lili22

01-17-2013, 09:57 AM

I really feel for you. I live in the county next to the most irresponsible, inconsiderate neighbor. For 15 years
she has had a series of dogs that barked and howled, sometimes 3 at a time. She would leave for work in the morning and not come home sometimes til 8-9 at night. Then, she would let them out at night to "talk to their friends". She would take in other people's dogs and leave them tied up to howl. Their run is next to my house only- literally 10 feet from my house. I complained at LEAST 10 times to animal control. They said they would call or come by to talk to the owner but NEVER did anything else. It was affecting my sleep, work and health. Animal Control said they needed compaints from at least 3 other neighbors, who would not complain as they all had dogs and wouldn't get involved and they were far enough away not be so affected. So Animal Control was useless. I spoke to the owner, called her when it happened, cried, begged. This woman was heartless. I've owned my home more than 30 years and loved it otherwise. It finally stopped when the dogs died of old age.
I was later advised to get right up to the fence and record the barking and document the dates, times and how long it lasts. If you can, video them. Then take the owner to small claims court for being a nuisance. Enclosed is the following link how to do that:

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/dog-book/chapter7-7.html

Good luck!

Alex

01-17-2013, 08:47 PM

<br><br>
Seems to me that the primary issue is that the dogs are being neglected, therefore they are barking to try to get the attention of whomever can change their situation. Personally, I am willing to hear dogs barking for about a minute, unless there is something important happening that is causing them to issue a warning. In your situation, it appears that your neighbor is neglecting the care of the dogs. Hopefully, ASPCA or Animal Control authorities can be of assistance to you.

Yes, the dogs are definitely barking from long whole days and nights of being ignored and trying to get the owner's attention. And I'd agree that over a minute with no good reason exceeds neighborly tolerance. Maybe she'll see this and see that I'm not alone or unreasonable in this thinking. Thank you.

Alex

01-17-2013, 08:59 PM

<br><br>
I really feel for you. I live in the county next to the most irresponsible, inconsiderate neighbor. For 15 years
she has had a series of dogs that barked and howled, sometimes 3 at a time. She would leave for work in the morning and not come home sometimes til 8-9 at night. Then, she would let them out at night to "talk to their friends". She would take in other people's dogs and leave them tied up to howl. Their run is next to my house only- literally 10 feet from my house. I complained at LEAST 10 times to animal control. They said they would call or come by to talk to the owner but NEVER did anything else. It was affecting my sleep, work and health. Animal Control said they needed compaints from at least 3 other neighbors, who would not complain as they all had dogs and wouldn't get involved and they were far enough away not be so affected. So Animal Control was useless. I spoke to the owner, called her when it happened, cried, begged. This woman was heartless. I've owned my home more than 30 years and loved it otherwise. It finally stopped when the dogs died of old age.
I was later advised to get right up to the fence and record the barking and document the dates, times and how long it lasts. If you can, video them. Then take the owner to small claims court for being a nuisance. Enclosed is the following link how to do that:

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/dog-book/chapter7-7.html

Good luck!

Yes, I'm being forced to the next step, thank you very much for your input and that link.

In unincorporated Sonoma it's just one other person that you need to join you. I can just skip to Civil Court too.

Here's one for you I found today in case you or anyone else needs it. It's an incredible, compassionate, no frills comprehensive compilation of all aspects of dealing with barking and the people that you're dealing with.

https://www.barkingdogs.net/index.shtml

wildflower

01-18-2013, 11:36 AM

Call 565-7100 (Sonoma County Animal Care & Control), wade through the queue until you can press #9 and make a nuisance barking report with a live operator. They usually send a letter to the offender(s) and there may be fines or consequences later on. I am always very careful about doing this in situations where it may end up causing abusive situations for the animals...in that case, I don't report.,,,but I think you probably should...right away!

msl

01-18-2013, 07:41 PM

Alex

01-19-2013, 12:05 PM

<br><br>
Call 565-7100 (Sonoma County Animal Care & Control), wade through the queue until you can press #9 and make a nuisance barking report with a live operator. They usually send a letter to the offender(s) and there may be fines or consequences later on. I am always very careful about doing this in situations where it may end up causing abusive situations for the animals...in that case, I don't report.,,,but I think you probably should...right away!

Thank you. I had already begun that process before posting here hoping the offender/wacco reader would rethink after seeing the community sentiment.

I'm wondering if it has helped. There has been no barking the last two nights and the difference is astounding. To not have a sledgehammer reaching into my house and hitting me over the head has made an entirely different feel to the quality of life. I hope the sledgehammer now goes away during the day and during wanting to enjoy my backyard as well. Just being in my backyard has been a quick continuous barking trigger.

If you have made a positive change dog owner, thank you from the bottom of my heart. The relief is enormous. You know who I am, please call me if I can help in any way to make this continue and be reliable. I am not your enemy in any way. Peace.

Alex

01-19-2013, 10:51 PM

I had originally responded to Alexia privately, as this is a long reply. I've decided to go public with it for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that...I've brought this subject up to several people over the past two days and the reaction is one of such anger and frustration that I really think everyone needs to get together and DO something about these situations! Everyone I spoke with had at least one long term experience with such animals and their dogs. (NOT a mistake, there.) (Sorry, animals... no offense.)

Anyway, the loss of sleep, the inability to enjoy one's own home/yard... it's just appalling that this happens, and, honestly, there really must be something that people can do. I know there is, but it involves people needing to realize that sometimes, ya hafta get mad! Because what I'm hearing from people is that no one wants to speak up/get involved.

Anyway, here's what I wrote:

Barking dogs are the bane of every neighborhood. Everyone has a story or two to tell about them. Everyone feels helpless to do anything.

No one can reason with these dogs’ owners. They simply don’t care/listen/understand. I really don’t get it. I honestly don’t know how they can sleep through it. I don’t know how it doesn’t drive them up the wall!.........

.....This little dog and its family is the talk of the neighborhood. I’ve known several people who’ve told me that they’d brought up the dog’s behavior to the owners in a polite and neighborly manner. I was actually surprised to hear that, because I thought I was the only one. ..... I think that’s one thing that made me so mad so that I ended up yelling at them, for the whole neighborhood to hear… that I knew I wasn’t the only one and that I was so frustrated for everyone else, too.

After that, I heard other people talking to them in a more vehement manner, and now they are better behaved. And I wonder about people who will only “be considerate” after having been yelled at…not when neighbors ask in a friendly fashion.

The thing is, although everyone talked about this dog, ... no one was willing to do anything.......

........Because, as you said, not only is it difficult to sleep, but, once the dog starts barking, even if it stops, or even if it’s midnight and the dog hasn’t barked yet, there’s an anxiety that is always there, and a truly good night’s sleep is impossible. Relaxation is impossible.

These kinds of neighbors are letting their dogs invade other peoples’ spaces… spaces that are OURS.

Even if they keep the dog out of my yard, even if they keep the dog from chasing after people in the streets… OUR streets, NOT the dog’s streets… they’re still willingly allowing their dogs and, by extension, themselves, to occupy MY space. They are forcing themselves on the rest of us.

I resent having to turn the music up in my own home to drown out the sound of a dog.
I resent having to put earplugs in to sleep in my own bedroom because the dog’s barking.
I resent going into my back yard to work in the garden and hearing the constant bark, bark, bark, yap,
yap, yap, instead of being able to hear the wind rustle the leaves and the birds chirping.

What to do about it?

I do know, as you probably do, too, that animal Control won’t take action on a barking complaint unless there are two people willing to complain. Which means you’d have to go around to your neighbors and try to get them on board. Which might be difficult because people complaining must be willing to say that they’ll testify in court. This scares people off.

These kinds of people… the barking dogs’ owners, do not seem to care about other people or about what other people think of them. They might even take pleasure in thinking that others are being bothered and sleepless because of them. There ARE twisted people in the world.

But say they’re not that devious. It sounds as if they may be because of their callousness. But say they’re just regular people. The only thing that might get them to stop is knowing that other neighbors are also being affected by the dogs. This means that other people are going to have to speak up. My experience is that they cannot speak up nicely; they have to let the dog owners know that they’re upset. And people don’t want to be bad neighbors, so they won’t let the dog owners know that they are upset.

The only other thing that stops some people is authority. Animal Control. But, unless you’ve got more than just barking going on, you alone cannot get Animal control to go out.

And the barking goes on. I cannot believe that you’re the only one in your neighborhood who is kept awake.

Well, you just asked what people thought about dog owners like that, and I’ve given you an earful. But I know you understand, and I understand your frustrations, and I wish I could help.

I’m replying privately, but if you think it would help your situation to post anything, let me know what that is, and I’ll do it, if you think it might help your neighbors’ selfish and lazy behaviors.

Louise

Good Luck, Alexis.

LOUISE,

THANK YOU. You said it all. I tried to just quote points from your brilliant summary of all the important underlying issues that you nailed and could hardly leave anything out. This statement particularly jumped out at me:

"Even if they keep the dog out of my yard, even if they keep the dog from chasing after people in the streets…
... they’re still willingly allowing their dogs and, by extension, themselves, to occupy MY space. They are forcing themselves on the rest of us. "

That really brilliantly captures the core issue.

If I imagine myself letting a dog bark unrestrained day and night, it would feel like I was deliberately attacking all my neighbors too.

You're also right about feeling helpless, trapped and what the only courses of action are. I think the law should be tightened and much further defined, but could be quickly effective if the issuance of tickets was started.

The problem for Animal Control apparently is a lot of people lying about their neighbors, really making it difficult for the people not lying, hence their requirement for 2 or 3 people willing to complain and testify in court down the line if necessary.

But a solution could be introducing money into the equation... and common sense. If a complaint is made and an officer arrives hearing an unattended outside dog chronically barking just like the complaint, no further proof necessary for a ticket.

Money = motivation to control your dog. No personality change required.

Also, it was REALLY helpful and encouraging for me to hear your story about how so many others nearby felt the same but were being silent until someone spoke up.

From all these posts and conversations with Animal Control, it seems that this issue is a pervasive problem that needs more of a spotlight. I'm hoping this thread will also get more either uncaring or unthinking dog owners to rethink and maybe do someone some good for someone else too.

THANK YOU BIGTIME,
Alexia

Connubial Warthog

01-20-2013, 03:53 PM

https://www.petsafe.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/understanding-barking.jpgI live in Forestville where evidently it is mandatory that every household have at least one and preferably two or three dogs. It wasn't always like that around here. when i first moved here it was dead quiet most days and even more importantly, nights. Many of these animals are left all day in confined areas, kennels or decks and have nothing to do but bark all day, being triggered by every unseen sound and each other.

But whats really amazing is that most dog owners won't control their animals barking even when they are home! I have often wondered if they like the sound of their dogs barking or if they are simply oblivious to it. It's gotten to the point where what was once a relatively quiet neighborhood has been dubbed "kennel canyon" by one of my neighbors.

Yes, there are a couple of major offenders, but really, there are now too many to easily single out one main culprit. It's gotten to the point where if there are only 2 or three going off, I consider that the "new normal." But in my heart, it is not OK with me.

I have tried writing to a couple of neoghbors concerning this and even tried speaking with one in particular, but apparently they would rather be on good terms with their animals than their neighbors. There have been complaints made, but Animal control doesn't seem as responsive to calls from west county. It's very frustrating and there have been times when I have thought I might have a better chance at finding a quieter home in a suburban neighborhood inside an incorporated town. Just a couple of thoughts.

Thanks for all your thoughtful contributions to a civil discussion that often gets swept under the table or shouted down by "entitled" dog owners.

citizenkane

01-20-2013, 04:58 PM

Here we are in downtown Forestville. Behind El Molino Pharmacy.

Dogs barking incessantly, for hours, but when spoken to owner became hostile and said our music bothers her. Tit for Tat. Nothing we can do. I tell the person it bothers the most to keep the log and record. I have been threatened repeatedly by dog owners that defend their dog chasing my ducks and chickens. My emus have been attacked by neighbor dogs and the owner was yelled at me for having them. It does give dog owners a bad name. Do you get a dog just to keep it in the back yard? Dogs in Europe are socialized better than here so they can go out in public....Oh well. What can I say. Currently not my biggest worry.

Dr Pam

01-20-2013, 06:55 PM

So far the focus has been on getting the dog owner to do the right thing. That's definitely the high road, but it can take such a long time, and cause so much stress and so many sleepless nights.

This may not work as well in the country where yards are large, but in the city, try the supersonic bark stop gizmos like this:

https://www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com/?pk_campaign=Adwords-Bark-USA-ENG-EXP&pk_kwd=bark%20stop%20ultrasonic&gclid=CPHY-oS3-LQCFc6DQgodBBcA7Q

These are pretty darn good. They have to be within fifty feet of the dog, so you can usually mount them on your side of the fence. You can set them to be silent to humans, or to make noise, either way. They don't work with all dogs, but most dogs shut up pretty quick.

I am surrounded by five yappy dogs. I have a point and shoot one to use when I'm in the back yard. The batteries wear out fast on these. The plug-in model can be installed on the fence and forgotten. You do get what you pay for, so spend the money the first time. A good one is still under $100.

Ahhh blessed silence.

Dr Pam

Shandi

01-20-2013, 07:18 PM

Finally, someone has made a suggestion that makes a solution possible! If several people in the neighborhood got these, it might solve the problem. Dogs need discipline, and since these dogs aren't getting any from the owners, someone else needs to do it.....for their own sanity. This is about behavior modification, and these bark controlers seem like an idea whose time has come!

If you've tired one, and it didn't work, try a different one. There are many on the market. Even if it costs $100, isn't your mental and physical health worth it?

Many people that have dogs aren't responsible owners, that's why the Dog Whisperer is so much in demand. I've known so many dog owners that allowed their dogs to rule them.

So far the focus has been on getting the dog owner to do the right thing. That's definitely the high road, but it can take such a long time, and cause so much stress and so many sleepless nights.

This may not work as well in the country where yards are large, but in the city, try the supersonic bark stop gizmos like this:

https://www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com/?pk_campaign=Adwords-Bark-USA-ENG-EXP&pk_kwd=bark%20stop%20ultrasonic&gclid=CPHY-oS3-LQCFc6DQgodBBcA7Q

These are pretty darn good. They have to be within fifty feet of the dog, so you can usually mount them on your side of the fence. You can set them to be silent to humans, or to make noise, either way. They don't work with all dogs, but most dogs shut up pretty quick.

I am surrounded by five yappy dogs. I have a point and shoot one to use when I'm in the back yard. The batteries wear out fast on these. The plug-in model can be installed on the fence and forgotten. You do get what you pay for, so spend the money the first time. A good one is still under $100.

Ahhh blessed silence.

Dr Pam

Connubial Warthog

01-21-2013, 11:30 AM

<br><br>
I bought an ultrasonic/sonic barker breaker about 10 years ago and set it up in my yard on a long pole so it would be higher than the fence. At the time it was $60 -the best one I could find with the longest range (50 ft). My mean, insensitive neighbor came over to my property and smashed it to pieces when I wasn't home (I still have the pieces) I had to call the police and she was charged with vandalism. There have been many other chronic problems of invasive noise besides dogs- idling trucks, hammering metal for hours, etc. These are the kind of people she and her resident friends are. It's very difficult to deal with the county about these issues. I've tried.

Well in my case, these dogs are across a canyon or in a kennel across the street. Either way, too far for an ultrasonic device to work. I don't understand why neighbors object to bark collars. I understand the new ones just use a vibration, not an electric shock and that they discourage barking quite quickly and effectively, essentially training the dog not to bark. But it seems most dog owners resist placing them on their dogs because...it might hurt them? I really don't know- many vets recommend them. :hmmm:

Dixon

01-21-2013, 11:06 PM

...they discourage barking quite quickly and effectively, essentially training the dog not to bark. But it seems most dog owners resist placing them on their dogs because...it might hurt them? I really don't know... :hmmm:
I think many (most?) dog owners have dogs precisely because they do bark, thus making them pretty good burglar etc. alarms. So a solution to the barking problem that stops the dogs entirely from barking wouldn't work for them.

Connubial Warthog

01-22-2013, 12:32 AM

<br><br>
I think many (most?) dog owners have dogs precisely because they do bark, thus making them pretty good burglar etc. alarms. So a solution to the barking problem that stops the dogs entirely from barking wouldn't work for them.

But since most of these dogs bark at any and everything that makes a sound or moves, and as the owners seem not to respond to their barking when at home, more often that not completely ignoring it, how effective are they as a burglar alarm? Even if the owners are not at home, no one would note the barking as unusual in the neighborhood. Granted, the barking could scare off a burglar, but not necessarily.

Dixon

01-22-2013, 01:46 AM

But since most of these dogs bark at any and everything that makes a sound or moves, and as the owners seem not to respond to their barking when at home, more often that not completely ignoring it, how effective are they as a burglar alarm? Even if the owners are not at home, no one would note the barking as unusual in the neighborhood. Granted, the barking could scare off a burglar, but not necessarily.
Yup, that's the irony of it. The dog who cried wolf!

msl

01-22-2013, 09:13 AM

I checked this website out. While I don't think it would work for everyone sounding off on this topic, I do think it would work for many. I'm seriously thinking of getting one. There's still the question/issue of getting animal control to do something, etc. I do think that another starting place is to let us all know that certain dog owners do not respond to polite requests for consideration. I think that polite requests should be the first action to be taken. But if you see nothing changing, then it's time to stop being so nice and to let the owner/s know you're upset about this.

In the case of my neighbor across the street and even the guy who's dog would start barking at 6 in the morning, any time anyone says anything, there's this "Oh, sorry, I'll get right on it", or "Yeah, we're really trying to do something about that...sorry". And here's the deal: When you hear that about 5 times, yet nothing changes, the apology is hot air. Unless you see and hear that person telling the dog to stop right then and there, the person is doing nothing except trying to get you to be nice, shut up, and move on.

So far the focus has been on getting the dog owner to do the right thing. That's definitely the high road, but it can take such a long time, and cause so much stress and so many sleepless nights.

This may not work as well in the country where yards are large, but in the city, try the supersonic bark stop gizmos like this:

https://www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com/?pk_campaign=Adwords-Bark-USA-ENG-EXP&pk_kwd=bark%20stop%20ultrasonic&gclid=CPHY-oS3-LQCFc6DQgodBBcA7Q

Alex

01-22-2013, 10:33 AM

So far the focus has been on getting the dog owner to do the right thing. That's definitely the high road, but it can take such a long time, and cause so much stress and so many sleepless nights.

This may not work as well in the country where yards are large, but in the city, try the supersonic bark stop gizmos like this:

https://www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com/?pk_campaign=Adwords-Bark-USA-ENG-EXP&pk_kwd=bark%20stop%20ultrasonic&gclid=CPHY-oS3-LQCFc6DQgodBBcA7Q

Thank you. I've read varying reviews of these and have been hesitant, but the companies stay in business so it must work under some conditions. On bark collars, I know the pet stores have a 30 day try it out policy and no questions asked returns if they don't work, maybe these too. I'll try it.

Connubial Warthog

01-22-2013, 11:18 AM

<br><br>
Thank you. I've read varying reviews of these and have been hesitant, but the companies stay in business so it must work under some conditions. On bark collars, I know the pet stores have a 30 day try it out policy and no questions asked returns if they don't work, maybe these too. I'll try it.

Huge important thing is these things really only work effectively at pretty close range, often closer than the compny purports maximal effective distance to be. If the dogs are really close you should definitely give it a try.

Homie

01-22-2013, 09:59 PM

Forestville, CA is the West coast version of "Deliverance". Attemting to have a win/win, grown-up conversation with a grown-up is simply put, like, putting a square peg in a round hole. Not "everybody is this challenging, but accumulatively, the collective mind-set is not progressive. This is not a put-down, just my personal experience. It is what it is.

Here we are in downtown Forestville. Behind El Molino Pharmacy.

Dogs barking incessantly, for hours, but when spoken to owner became hostile and said our music bothers her. Tit for Tat. Nothing we can do. I tell the person it bothers the most to keep the log and record. I have been threatened repeatedly by dog owners that defend their dog chasing my ducks and chickens. My emus have been attacked by neighbor dogs and the owner was yelled at me for having them. It does give dog owners a bad name. Do you get a dog just to keep it in the back yard? Dogs in Europe are socialized better than here so they can go out in public....Oh well. What can I say. Currently not my biggest worry.

David MySky

01-23-2013, 03:59 PM

Alexia,

I have a digital recorder that records up to 7 hours. I could leave it on a tripod and set it to record the howling curs. I live not far from Mirabel.

David

Shandi

01-24-2013, 07:45 AM

How will you put bark collars on "their" dogs?

Thank you. I've read varying reviews of these and have been hesitant, but the companies stay in business so it must work under some conditions. On bark collars, I know the pet stores have a 30 day try it out policy and no questions asked returns if they don't work, maybe these too. I'll try it.

Alex

01-24-2013, 10:42 AM

How will you put bark collars on "their" dogs?I was first referring to the suggestion about getting an 'ultrasonic/sonic barker breaker' that you aim at the dogs from your fence, but saying it might also be available on a 30-day return like bark collars are.

Alex

01-24-2013, 10:47 AM

I have a digital recorder that records up to 7 hours. I could leave it on a tripod and set it to record the howling curs. I live not far from Mirabel.You're a supersweetheart, thank you, I will contact you. It's the next step I have to take for Animal Control to be able to act further. I've been researching home security audio/video recorders. Have to work around the rain and freeze issues.

Roland Jacopetti

01-24-2013, 04:42 PM

Arf! Arf! rrrrrrrr! rrrrrrr! whine, whimper... Arf! (all sotto voce)
(Translation: Dogs shouldn't bark so loud! It makes me mad! Shut up!)

Signed,

Dexter Jacopetti
(Affenpinscher-Havanese Mix (and proud!)

Alexia,

I have a digital recorder that records up to 7 hours. I could leave it on a tripod and set it to record the howling curs. I live not far from Mirabel.

David

msl

02-10-2013, 04:18 PM

I've been pretty busy, but have delved into this a bit more.
What I'd like to know is: Just what IS the ordinance? Where can one find a copy of it?
I found a site online that says I can call animal control and that they should send a letter and recommendations to the owner.
Has anyone done this? I've kind of been led to believe that there needs to be at least two people who are affected by the dog's barking and willing to file a formal complaint.
Can anyone tell me about their personal positive experience with trying to rectify a situation like this?
I do have to say that, so far, this thread has provided some good suggestions. I'd love to get the barking dog alarm/stopper, but right now, I can't afford that.

You're a supersweetheart, thank you, I will contact you. It's the next step I have to take for Animal Control to be able to act further. I've been researching home security audio/video recorders. Have to work around the rain and freeze issues.

Peace Voyager

02-11-2013, 05:28 PM

Are you in the County? Sorry no noise ordinance yet. Suggest you ask the SC BOS for one.

Sebastopol has one; ask Mary the City Clerk for a copy.

I've been pretty busy, but have delved into this a bit more.
What I'd like to know is: Just what IS the ordinance? Where can one find a copy of it?
I found a site online that says I can call animal control and that they should send a letter and recommendations to the owner.
Has anyone done this? I've kind of been led to believe that there needs to be at least two people who are affected by the dog's barking and willing to file a formal complaint.
Can anyone tell me about their personal positive experience with trying to rectify a situation like this?
I do have to say that, so far, this thread has provided some good suggestions. I'd love to get the barking dog alarm/stopper, but right now, I can't afford that.

Alex

02-12-2013, 12:33 PM

Are you in the County? Sorry no noise ordinance yet....

Of course there is an animal related noise ordinance especially in a heavily agricultural county.
The Sonoma County Ordinance regarding animal noise is Section 5-126 but has lots of loopholes for interpretation.

Sec. 5-126. - Public nuisances prohibited.
(a) No owner of any animal shall do any of the following:

(1) Permit such animal to obstruct the reasonable and comfortable use of property in any neighborhood or community by chasing vehicles, molesting passersby, barking, howling or making other noise;

(2) Permit such animal to damage or trespass on public or private property;

(3) Permit unsanitary conditions to exist on the premises where such animal is kept which would cause odors, attract flies or vermin, or which would be otherwise injurious to the public health, offensive to the senses, or an obstruction to the free use of property so as to interfere with the comfortable enjoyment of life or property by members of the neighborhood or community or any considerable number of other persons;

(4) Maintain a dangerous animal in a manner that creates a significant threat to the public health, safety and welfare.

(b) Any violation of this section is hereby declared to be a public nuisance.

(c) Whenever the director or any animal regulation officer has reasonable cause to believe that a public nuisance as defined in this section exists, the director may conduct an investigation or the alleged nuisance. Whenever it is affirmed in writing by two (2) or more persons residing in separate residences or regularly employed in the neighborhood that a public nuisance as defined in this section exists, the director shall investigate the alleged nuisance, provided, however, that where there is only one (1) person residing or regularly employed within three hundred feet (300′) of the alleged public nuisance, written affirmation of only that one (1) person shall be required for the director to investigate the alleged nuisance. If, upon investigation, the director determines that a public nuisance exists, the director may issue an order to the owner of the offending animal directing that such nuisance be abated. In the event that the owner does not comply with the abatement order, the director may immediately refer the matter to the district attorney for prosecution of the public nuisance.

(d) Any person may maintain an action under Civil Code section 3493 for compliance with the requirements of this section.

(e) Notwithstanding any of the preceding, no animal which is part of an agricultural operation exempt from being or becoming a nuisance by Civil Code section 3482.5 shall be deemed to be a public nuisance under this section, provided such animal is owned and kept in compliance with this chapter and state law.

Connubial Warthog

02-12-2013, 01:03 PM

Of course, but you have be able to prove it. Making a recording, complaining to Animal Control etc. it's a slow process. I know a guy who has been reasonably successful, but in doing so, has also alienated most of his neighbors. He's got neighbors whose dogs howl, bark and cry all day. Then when the owners come home the animals stop, and consequently all his neighbors think he's crazy. That's why you must record it. He has put a lot of time into trying to make these dog owners aware of the problem while working at home 50 hours a week.

Today, I was awakened at around 6:30 by at least two barking dogs, joined in by more later. They proceeded to bark until around 8:00. I could've gotten out of bed, set up my recorder, then gotten in my car to drive across the canyon to see where they were coming from, but it was so freaking cold I didn't want to get out of bed! Point being, You can't sit around and expect anything to change. You do have to be inconvenienced. And it takes time out of your life to do it. And then you have to be patient. Its frustrating, because the county doesn't prioritize these things.

Of course there is an animal related noise ordinance especially in a heavily agricultural county.
The Sonoma County Ordinance regarding animal noise is Section 5-126 but has lots of loopholes for interpretation.

Sec. 5-126. - Public nuisances prohibited.
(a) No owner of any animal shall do any of the following:

(1) Permit such animal to obstruct the reasonable and comfortable use of property in any neighborhood or community by chasing vehicles, molesting passersby, barking, howling or making other noise;

....

Thumpitall

02-14-2013, 08:23 AM

We live in Sebastopol which does have an ordinance. There is a "kennel" (well it seems like one) near us with 3-4 dogs that bark incessantly. The Sebastopol Police have been responsive and usually send out one of their cadets when we call them. Eventually a very nice woman (Michelle I think) contacted us and the dog owner and this seemed to work for a while. We were told that eventually we would have to produce a formal complaint. So I checked in with neighbors and guess what we got? "I don't want to get involved, the dogs don't bother me".

This was disturbing to say the least and so much for solidarity on that account. I know I will take flak for this, but in our case, female neighbors were the ones who refused to assist us and male neighbors said "Where can I sign". Interesting but true and more than likely situational. I do think that people believe that the Police will tell the neighbor who it was that complained and so some folks don't want to get involved for fear of some sort of retribution.

I expect we probably called the police at least 15 times over a 1-2 year period. Eventually "we" trained the owners to take their dogs in at night although these dogs still bark all day every day. I also think they just got tired of the visits from the police...

So it is a win of sorts because we can at least sleep at night and not hear the dogs.
It is a problem for sure and I do believe the pet owners simply tune it out and rarely consider their neighbors.
T

Mary C

02-14-2013, 11:32 PM

Allowing one's dogs to disturb others is a hostile and aggressive act, and attempting to reason with an aggressive, hostile person is usually an exercise in futility. It makes sense that neighbors would hesitate to become involved in a situation that could lead to years of heartache, particularly women who may be concerned about making themselves vulnerable to an aggressive person who lives in close proximity.

A person who cares nothing for his or her neighbor's peace of mind, and further, who doesn't hesitate to hurt pets by leaving them alone, lonely and barking for hours on end, is not likely to be open to a gentle intervention. If all of the neighbors don't unite to effectively address such callous and abusive behavior, they allow evil to flourish. Yes, I said evil. Hurting an animal who counts on you, caring nothing about its suffering, and purposefully causing your fellow human beings to suffer can be interpreted as evil.

I read a beautiful piece on Wacco a few days ago, written by a man who just adopted his first dog at the age of 70+. In a matter of days, he developed an understanding and a sensitivity toward dogs, and he involved his community in loving and caring for his new companion. Now HE would listen to you if you knocked on his door and said, "Your dog is creating unhappiness for me," but I can guarantee that you will never have to knock on his door. This gentleman will not need a neighborhood intervention.

As for the hostile and abusive neighbor whose suffering animals are creating a disturbance, do the most loving thing you can: Refuse to allow this person to continue hurting his animals or his fellow human beings. Don't allow one brave soul to be the sacrificial lamb for the neighborhood, which will have a net result of little or no change, and will deepen the suffering of that brave soul and other neighbors. Don't be cowardly. Do if for the animals if not for you.

I'm loathe to give such direct advice, since we all have to find our own way, but when it comes to animals, children and elders, we have to be willing to step forward and take a risk.

We live in Sebastopol which does have an ordinance. There is a "kennel" (well it seems like one) near us with 3-4 dogs that bark incessantly. The Sebastopol Police have been responsive and usually send out one of their cadets when we call them. Eventually a very nice woman (Michelle I think) contacted us and the dog owner and this seemed to work for a while. We were told that eventually we would have to produce a formal complaint. So I checked in with neighbors and guess what we got? "I don't want to get involved, the dogs don't bother me".

This was disturbing to say the least and so much for solidarity on that account. I know I will take flak for this, but in our case, female neighbors were the ones who refused to assist us and male neighbors said "Where can I sign". Interesting but true and more than likely situational. I do think that people believe that the Police will tell the neighbor who it was that complained and so some folks don't want to get involved for fear of some sort of retribution.

I expect we probably called the police at least 15 times over a 1-2 year period. Eventually "we" trained the owners to take their dogs in at night although these dogs still bark all day every day. I also think they just got tired of the visits from the police...

So it is a win of sorts because we can at least sleep at night and not hear the dogs.
It is a problem for sure and I do believe the pet owners simply tune it out and rarely consider their neighbors.
T

Connubial Warthog

02-14-2013, 11:51 PM

Allowing one's dogs to disturb others is a hostile and aggressive act, and attempting to reason with an aggressive, hostile person is usually an exercise in futility....

Sometimes it's not evil, but necessity that places these dogs in confined areas alone throughout the day. By that I mean the owners must go to work to be able to afford to have their home and their animals. In contrast, I'll bet that 70 year old guy is retired. Now don't get me wrong: I'm not defending these dog owners whose pets suffer from loneliness and boredom. Personally, I don't think you should own a dog if you have to leave it unattended most of the day. It's especially annoying for those of us who work at home and have to listen to them bark, whine and cry while the owners are blissfully unaware of their animals suffering. But unfortunately, that's the way things are. People want their dogs, even though they have to leave them at home. I don't think it's fair to the dogs, who are by nature social animals. The truth is, if they could be left to roam freely together, they probably wouldn't bark and cry. But we all know that's never going to happen. Don't know what the answer is, because everyone apparently has to own at least one dog, even if they have to leave it alone 40 hours a week.

meherc

02-18-2013, 05:09 PM

Dixon: This "dipshit" you refer to is me. This woman is nuts. She insists I leave my dogs out all night in freezing weather, leave them in the yard during the day to bark constantly, and mistreat them. When she called animal control, they said my dogs looked very well cared for. I never leave them out all night or in the rain or when I am not home. You have no right to call me names when you don't know the whole story. I got home one night at 12:30am. I let the dogs out. They gave one bark to get back in after peeing. She called me exactly 2 minutes after I let them out to harrass me about leaving them out all night in freezing weather.

Animal control checked up on me and the dogs 3 times and said it was physically impossible for my dogs (chihuahuas) to bark as long as she was claiming. I went to every neighbor and asked them if my dogs were bothering them. All of them said no, they never hear them. All of these people have dogs as well. Why she has singled out my dogs, I don't know. There are many dogs who are barking in the neighborhood. Only one person said he'd like to kill me and the dogs and I asked why he had never said anything in 12 years and he said he didn't want to get involved with the meth lab across the street, the drug dealers next door and the crack house next to the meth lab and said that new woman who moved in is the craziest of all of them and he wished she would just stay away from him. There are none of these things going on in the neighborhood.

The animal control person called the police to go pay her a visit and tell her that she is living in the country, not in the city, and dogs bark sometimes, mine were not unusual. He said she is a little nutty and he gets complaints from people who say their neighbors are mistreating their animals because they never see them bring dog food into the house or don't realize that greyhounds are built skinny, it doesn't mean they are being abused.

This woman has called at 3am to say my dogs are waking her up when we are all peacefully snoozing in bed. I did finallly tell her that babies cry, dogs bark sometimes, to get a grip and learn to live in the real world. She wrote a vitriolic letter to me and animal control who told me she was harrassing me and to call the police the next time she called in the middle of the night for inane reasons.

I was very nice when she first came over to complain. I was surprised but agreed to let her put a shock collar on my dogs just to get her to leave me alone. My husband was murdered last year and this nut kept coming over when I was having confidential conversations with lawyers or with my tax clients. I had a friend over once when nutsy came over AGAIN to complain.My friend listened at the window and said it was not my dogs who were barking but the next door ones. So Dixon, I thought you were the logical one. Don't make assumptions when you don't know the whole story. Funny thing, she hasn't called since the police visited her and threatened arrest. The cops always agreed with me, that my dogs were fine and she was the crazy one.

Marilyn Herczog

Alexia, you have bent over backwards giving this inconsiderate dipshit every opportunity to be reasonable, and she has shown herself unwilling to do so. Thus she has created a situation in which your only recourse is force. If I were you, I'd get real clear on what the law is re: times of day/night, etc. and then call the police every single time her dogs violate the law. You might also consider calling the dog owner every time; being awakened in the midddle of the night a few times might spark her self-interest, if not her empathy, which seems to be notably lacking. As she has shown that she can't be reasoned with, you are justified to respond with virtually any level of force necessary to solve the problem, so no need to be reticent anymore.

Roland Jacopetti

02-18-2013, 05:44 PM

People, People! Please remember that most people get angrier arguing about their dogs than they do about their children, their political affiliation or their religion.So, to make everyone feel better, I'll tell you a relevant joke:

Two men were walking their dogs. They passed a bar, and one suggested going in for a beer.

"Nah," said the other, "I'm sure they don't allow dogs in this joint."

"Just watch me, and do what I do", said his friend,and walked in.

"Hold on," said the barkeep, "No dogs allowed."

"But it's a seeing-eye dog," the man answered.

"Oh. sorry!", said the barkeep, "Come on in. Can I get your dog a bowl of water? Beautiful shepherd."

So the other man entered with his dog.

"Sorry, pal," said the barkeep, "No dogs."

"But it's a seeing-eye dog," said the man.

"A chihuahua?" said the barkeep.

The man answered, "They gave me a chihuahua?!

Connubial Warthog

02-18-2013, 10:00 PM

There are always two sides to every story. I'll make a bet that the truth lies somewhere in between. Dog owners in my experience, tend not to hear their own dogs barking. I can't tell you how many times I have heard dogs barking in my neighborhood while the owners are home and do nothing to stop them. They are simply tuned out and don't notice. What other explanation could there be?

My experience is dog owners tend to feel entitled. That is why they bring them up to trails that explicitly post signs that don't allow dogs. Usually these folks don't even put them on a leash. I saw four today up in the Marin headlands where, by the way, rangers report dogs that come up there confuse coyotes with their scents and cause them to fight with each other with animal deaths as a result of this. There is a reason dogs are banned on certain trails. But I digress...

Point being, while I don't have all the facts, i doubt either side is being entirely objective and thus I'm not necessarily buying this story as presented. I'm not doubting this is the poster's perception of " the facts,", but nobody calls because of one single solitary bark. That doesn't ring true for me.

Dixon

02-19-2013, 12:56 AM

Dixon: This "dipshit" you refer to is me.
Well, hello, Marilyn! Small world, LOL!

It's always nice to get at least 2 sides to a story, even if one of them is late arriving to the party.

I only call people things like "dipshit" if they richly deserve it, as did the person described by Alexia in her opening volley on this thread. If what you say is true, that person doesn't exist, but is a figment of Alexia's fevered imagination, because you haven't done those things she attributes to you. If so, you needn't take my "dipshit" comment personally; it was about the (apparently fictional) person described by Alexia, not you. If, on the other hand, Alexia's account is substantially accurate (and I honestly have no idea which of you is right), then "dipshit" fits the situation. So what I'm saying is: If the dipshit fits wear it, and if it doesn't, there's no need to take it as a description of you, because it wasn't aimed at you. Okay? Feel a little better now?

And, by way of clarification of a general principle: anything I say can be wrong or based on misinformation at any time. I would never convict anybody on the basis of only one side of a story, but I don't mind making comments in response to what someone says on the assumption that what they said was true. If it wasn't (as often turns out to be the case), then my comments which were appropriate to the described situation may not be appropriate to the real one. No biggie; I'm always correctable.

Dixon

02-19-2013, 01:11 AM

Roland, you have told one of my two favorite "blind guy and dog" jokes (both of which made my blind friend Larry laugh his ass off). Here's the other one:

A blind guy tells a fellow that he loves to sky-dive. The other guy says "It's amazing that you can sky-dive, being blind! How does that work?"

The blind guy says "My friends pack my chute for me and lead me to the plane. When we get up to the proper altitude, they tell me when it's my turn to jump. Then I feel my way to the opening and jump out. I count off 60 seconds, then pull the ripcord to open my chute. It's great fun! What a rush!"

The other guy says "That sounds great, but I understand that landing, even with a fully-deployed chute, is quite jarring. Is there some way you can know when you're about to hit the ground so you can steel yourself for the impact?"

The blind guy says "Yeah. Just before I'm about to hit the ground, my dog's leash goes slack."

meherc

02-19-2013, 02:36 AM

But she is lying aand everyone in the neighborhood and the police who I called agree. I am so tired of fighting with the legal system, my PTSD, and I have enough trauma in my life without having obviously self-centered lunatics bothering me too. What person with any compassion would keep harrassing a woman who' s husband just was violently murdered by her son who is in jail, not the hospital, because he had a psychotic break? She knew this, I lost my whole life , my whole family in an instant and have no one to help me, no money and I was usually crying . She would stop by and continued to call me in the middle of the night with her delusional sounds of dog barking. Well, I did everything I could to satisfy her till I realized she was never going to be satisfied. She is a very nasty, vindictive person and i did not read this whole thread purposely because I can't waste my energy now on negative people if I am to survive and be strong enough to keep fighting for my son..

Yes, I have to admit I was hurt by the few replies I did read - which were nasty toward me and blindly believed her accusations. If you all want to do something that actually helps people in the world, why don't you come down to support me and my son in court, where they still treat sick people like criminals. That's the crime. Or you could spend your time discussing imaginary barking and resume the endless discussion about how horrible leaf blowers are.

meherc

02-19-2013, 02:52 AM

One more thing, Dixon, I think it is irresponsible to call names when you don't know the facts. That's nice that you are willing to listen to another side but I believe you don't know what's in another person's heart and you should give them (me) the benefit of the doubt. I figured Alexia must have some big pain that would cause her to behave that way. You might notice that I did not start a thread about an angry woman harrassing me for nothing when I was in so much pain already. Maybe she has nothing better to do.

Alex

02-19-2013, 11:46 AM

Marilyn, I’m glad to be able to respond to you now directly on this forum. I have no interest in being anything but truthful and characterizing the situation exactly as it is, in full consideration of your needs as well.

I won’t counter many of your statements except to say no police have called or visited me and I’ve had numerous long initial and follow up conversations with Animal Control that helped immensely to know how to work together.

But the truth of the situation is not a question. Even you confirmed that our neighbor told you the barking from your house has made him extremely angry for years. The larger dog is the problem, not the chihuahuas at all, oddly enough.

Marilyn, after I knocked on your door to talk about it I found myself very torn between empathy for your situation and the fact that any night I was facing the possibility of being jolted awake, not being able to fall back asleep for hours and feeling like shit the whole next day. This pattern did happen a few nights every week and was incredibly disruptive to my well being.

I am very, very sorry for what is so disruptive to your well being. You seemed very sweet and in lot of emotional distress. You have told me you don’t hear the dogs, possibly from such emotional distraction. What do we do about how difficult the uncontrollable stress is you are faced with and your neighbor’s right to live without additional stress that is controllable?

No, the bark collars I paid for didn’t work that you graciously let me try, but my offer still stands to pay for a dog door so they can come and go from the backyard.

No one has really addressed the title of this thread, my original intention was to get specific community consensus of what the actual terms of tolerance should be considered reasonable.

I suggest that responsible dog ownership and fair neighborly consideration is no barking after 10pm, and no situation allowed where a dog isn’t stopped from extended barking for no good reason. That’s what I would feel is reasonable and neighborly.

Marilyn, my offer still stands to help the barking situation in any way I can and you can call or ask me to come over anytime you need a shoulder to lean on too. I repeat from previous post, I am not your enemy. I want whatever peace I have a reasonable right to and fair, mutual consideration. Please call me. Thank you.

Barry

02-19-2013, 11:46 AM

I don't want to get into a she-said/she-said, or rather your dog is barking - no s/he's not, so I ask that Alexia and Marilyn refrain from posting further on this thread. I hope they can find a resolution that works for them.

I don't know what can be said to help them, especially given Marilyn's difficult circumstances.

I think it's best if this thread returns to it's initial topic, which is what is your interpretation of the noise ordinance which states "...no animal owner should obstruct the reasonable and comfortable use of property by barking....."

Alexia posted her interpretation:

I suggest that responsible dog ownership and fair neighborly consideration is no barking after 10pm, and no situation allowed where a dog isn’t stopped from extended barking for no good reason. That’s what I would feel is reasonable and neighborly.

What's yours?

lili22

02-19-2013, 02:40 PM

Los Angeles Gives Bite to Bark Law
By Jon Bastian

https://www.cesarsway.com/images/features/2011/November/2DogsBarkHowling.jpgThe Los Angeles City Council and Mayor have passed a new Ordinance to give the Department of Animal Services authority over nuisance dog complaints, whether the dog is licensed or not. Previously, the Department could only hear such matters if the dog was licensed, which created a Catch-22 situation. As explained by Mitchell Englander, Chair of the City’s Public Safety Committee, “In effect, owners of unlicensed dogs are treated more leniently than owners of licensed dogs. (This) Ordinance allows the Department to… impose conditions and restrictions including issuing an order to remove nuisance dogs.”
The Ordinance also defines for the first time excessive “whining, barking, howling, or similar dog noise.” Under the new law, the noise must be continuously audible for ten minutes, or intermittently audible for thirty minutes within a three hour period. These provisions do not apply to any legally permitted commercial animal establishment, such as a doggie day care. Penalties are $ 250 for the first offense, increasing to $ 1,000 for a third offense.
The law also creates a new Restricted Dog Permit to be issued in the case of a dog biting (https://www.cesarsway.com/channel/dog-behavior/dog-biting), attacking, or injuring a person non-fatally due to owner negligence. This Permit, which is $120 in addition to regular license fees, also requires the owner of the dog to post warning signs on their property, and maintain at least $ 100,000 of liability insurance. The new regulations go into effect in early December. You can find text of the Ordinance here. (https://clkrep.lacity.org/onlinedocs/2011/11-0922_misc_11-1-11.pdf)
Are there nuisance barking regulations where you live? If so, how are they handled and what are the penalties? Let us know in the comments.

Connubial Warthog

02-19-2013, 03:00 PM

HMMM. Alexa sounds incredibly cogent and sane for a complete nutcase. As I suspected, the truth lies somewhere in between. it's always about which point of view one chooses to look at the situation from. Specifically addressing the point Marilyn made about asking neighbors (who are fellow dog owners) whether or not they hear the barking or if it bothers them, I have found that dog owners are a loyal bunch, who will invariably watch each others back, lest someone come knocking on their doors complaining about little Fido's barking. You will never get a straight answer out of them. It's just too bad people can't come together and find solutions without bringing government agencies into the mix.

My friend (who works at home as a professional cable television editor,) finally had to go after his neighbors who left barking dogs at home. One by one he got his space back. The answer in his case was to record the dogs and then go to animal control. In mediation he simply flipped on the play button and instantly all denials went dead silent as the dogs in question went on and on, sometimes for 2 hour long blocks. In most cases, bark collars did the job. Or letting the dogs stay inside whole the owner was at work. Whatever, it was like a second job for the guy. A lot of work for something that should be a given: that a home owner should be able to enjoy his personal space without resorting to earplugs or headphones or having to bring in the authorities.

Dog owners don't hear their dogs. The only way to get their attention is to make recordings and take actions that might result in fines or ultimately, the dogs being taken away from their negligent owners. Sorry, but that has been my experience and what I have observed. I wish it didn't have to be this way.

I feel compassion for Marilyn and the heartbreaking events she has had to endure in her life, but that is not what this thread is addressing. I don't live in their neighborhood, so I have no idea what the truth is, but my intuition tells me that both sides are quite naturally biased and the truth lies somewhere in between. What do do? I don't have an answer. It's hard for humans with different sets of values to live in close proximity with one another.

Marilyn, I’m glad to be able to respond to you now directly on this forum. I have no interest in being anything but truthful and characterizing the situation exactly as it is, in full consideration of your needs as well.

I won’t counter many of your statements except to say no police have called or visited me and I’ve had numerous long initial and follow up conversations with Animal Control that helped immensely to know how to work together.

But the truth of the situation is not a question. Even you confirmed that our neighbor told you the barking from your house has made him extremely angry for years. The larger dog is the problem, not the chihuahuas at all, oddly enough.

Marilyn, after I knocked on your door to talk about it I found myself very torn between empathy for your situation and the fact that any night I was facing the possibility of being jolted awake, not being able to fall back asleep for hours and feeling like shit the whole next day. This pattern did happen a few nights every week and was incredibly disruptive to my well being.

I am very, very sorry for what is so disruptive to your well being. You seemed very sweet and in lot of emotional distress. You have told me you don’t hear the dogs, possibly from such emotional distraction. What do we do about how difficult the uncontrollable stress is you are faced with and your neighbor’s right to live without additional stress that is controllable?

No, the bark collars I paid for didn’t work that you graciously let me try, but my offer still stands to pay for a dog door so they can come and go from the backyard.

No one has really addressed the title of this thread, my original intention was to get specific community consensus of what the actual terms of tolerance should be considered reasonable.

I suggest that responsible dog ownership and fair neighborly consideration is no barking after 10pm, and no situation allowed where a dog isn’t stopped from extended barking for no good reason. That’s what I would feel is reasonable and neighborly.

Marilyn, my offer still stands to help the barking situation in any way I can and you can call or ask me to come over anytime you need a shoulder to lean on too. I repeat from previous post, I am not your enemy. I want whatever peace I have a reasonable right to and fair, mutual consideration. Please call me. Thank you.

Connubial Warthog

02-19-2013, 03:05 PM

podfish

02-19-2013, 05:08 PM

My experience is dog owners tend to feel entitled.unlike people who don't own dogs...

yeah, stereotyping is lazy and thoughtless, but I only use stereotypes when they're true.

Connubial Warthog

02-19-2013, 06:45 PM

Dude,

I am not stereotyping. I am however, observing. After decades of observing dog owners, this is what I have seen. I have been bitten by a dog on the trail and the owners didn't even apologize. I constantly see dogs on trails where they are not permitted. My girlfriend was knocked down to the ground a year ago by two unleashed dogs up on the top of Willow Creek where they are not permitted. And there's dog shit all over the trail up there.

I have experienced dog owners who are at home while their dogs bark and do nothing to stop them. I regularly have dog poop in my driveway even though I post signs asking owners to kindly clean up after their dogs. So, yeah, sue me: I am making a generalization. I can't speak to the "entitlement" of non-dog owners with regards to how they treat their neighbors when it comes to their dogs....because they don't own them! We get good neighbors and bad ones true. But in this instance I am speaking to a specific problem and it is rampant around here. If the poo sticks...scrape it off your shoe, like I have to all the time.

unlike people who don't own dogs...

yeah, stereotyping is lazy and thoughtless, but I only use stereotypes when they're true.

Connubial Warthog

02-19-2013, 06:53 PM

Unfortunately, this is the only thing that will ever really work, and it will never happen here in Forestville. As it is, they don't even implement the flimsy laws we have in place. Don't get me started.

Los Angeles Gives Bite to Bark Law
By Jon Bastian

https://www.cesarsway.com/images/features/2011/November/2DogsBarkHowling.jpgThe Los Angeles City Council and Mayor have passed a new Ordinance to give the Department of Animal Services authority over nuisance dog complaints,...
The Ordinance also defines for the first time excessive “whining, barking, howling, or similar dog noise.” Under the new law, the noise must be continuously audible for ten minutes, or intermittently audible for thirty minutes within a three hour period. These provisions do not apply to any legally permitted commercial animal establishment, such as a doggie day care. Penalties are $ 250 for the first offense, increasing to $ 1,000 for a third offense.
....

Hotspring 44

02-19-2013, 06:54 PM

I agree with Alexa's totally reasonable interpretation. No barking after 10 pm and no extended barking for no good reason. (which is 99.99% of the time.) And I might add, no barking before 8 am. I was awakened two days in a row @.5:30 am by neighbor dogs who were as usual, barking at nothing.

I want to make it clear that I am referring to the after 10:00 PM and the dark hours of the early morning barking issue only and that the barking dog, location where, and (the) who the barking dog’s owner is have all been positively identified with reasonable certainty. Otherwise it would be hearsay; he said, she said, etc.

So here I go... ...stepping in it so to speak.
FWIW, IMHO, as a past tense dog owner; 1A- I think it is impossible or at least unreasonable to expect the dog owner to absolutely guarantee that a dog won’t (ever) at some point bark (out in the yard) at all after 10:00 PM 365 days a year...

...1B- Even well behaved dogs have reasons why they may be barking regardless of what time of day or night it is.
For one thing, there may be someone else’s loose dog/s (a violation in Sonoma County) are roaming the neighborhood and the (more-so) law abiding dog owner has their dog/s in an adequately fenced yard that will bark at loose dogs, or at someone who is walking near the fence, may be with or without a leashed (or unleashed) dog too for that matter, then there are cats to bark at... ...what about the nuisance of trespassing cats that cause dogs to bark?... ...so...
...It is unreasonable to expect that any dog won’t bark at those times under those or similar circumstances.

...It is also unreasonable to make a ‘demand’ that the dog owner has to keep their dog in the house where as it would defecate or urinate in the home.

1C- There should be a way to reasonably have a mutually acceptable agreement and understanding of the needs of each other, and stick to the agreement made using that understanding of each others needs as the foundation... That being said... ...Is there a part of the law that says the litigants can or have to go to an arbitrator?...

...If so: 2- I think it is reasonable for the law or judge decide in a case to case basis, to have litigants make a binding agreement with each other (dog owner/s and neighbor/s) for the dog owner to be present enough of mind and body to stop the dog/s from barking within 30 seconds to 1 minute; certainly not more than 90 seconds but 30 seconds as a basic set time for the barking to last (after 10:00 PM); generally speaking, because it is inevitable that (as a basic rule) the dog has to be out in the (presumably, fenced) yard to relieve itself.

3- It would be unreasonable for the dog owner to not have enough control of their dog/s to 1- Keep the dog away from their immediate next door neighbors part of the home that would be an invasion of peace with a bark; such as a bedroom window or where a baby sleeps for example, and also in cases where there is no immediate next door neighbor/s, and/or (to) not stop the dog from barking for over 90 seconds at the very longest after 10:00 PM.

It is also unreasonable for the dog owner to have any dog that barks at anything that makes even the slightest noise, anything that moves in the neighborhood, and/or other barking dogs hundreds of yards or even miles away and not have someone that is capable (not a small child with a large dog) to be physically in the yard with the dog, so they can have a reasonable way to successfully prevent or at least stop the barking very quickly at times between the hours of 1:30 AM and ½ hour before sunrise.

As far as incessantly barking dogs that go on (or on and off, and on again etc.) for hours during the daytime, I will, for now; not step into that pile.:FlakeyFoont:20575

Barry

02-19-2013, 10:51 PM

So here I go... ...stepping in it so to speak.
...:FlakeyFoont:20575

:firstplaceribbon:Congrats, you win the prize for Best Use of Graphics!
Plus I've elevated your poo to be part of our graphics gallery.
Oh, and good post too! :thumbsup:

Connubial Warthog

02-19-2013, 11:22 PM

Of course it would be unreasonable to expect these things. And I'm not expecting the dogs owners to control their barking after 10pm 365 nights a year. But what I'm seeing here is a total disregard of any consideration whatsoever, day and night. I rarely if ever hear a neighbor telling their dog to quiet down. Isn't it "reasonable" to at least expect a dog owner to quiet his dogs in the middle of the night? Is that too much to ask? Because it doesn't happen here in "Kennel Canyon."

I want to make it clear that I am referring to the after 10:00 PM and the dark hours of the early morning barking issue only and that the barking dog, location where, and (the) who the barking dog’s owner is have all been positively identified with reasonable certainty. Otherwise it would be hearsay; he said, she said, etc.

So here I go... ...stepping in it so to speak. ...

Hotspring 44

02-20-2013, 10:10 AM

I believe I addressed those questions...
Isn't it "reasonable" to at least expect a dog owner to quiet his dogs in the middle of the night? Is that too much to ask? ...in the post.

I am wondering if you read the first part of my post and reacted to it without reading the whole post or if you somehow misunderstood:...
3- It would be unreasonable for the dog owner to not have enough control of their dog/s to 1- Keep the dog away from their immediate next door neighbors part of the home that would be an invasion of peace with a bark; such as a bedroom window or where a baby sleeps for example, and also in cases where there is no immediate next door neighbor/s, and/or (to) not stop the dog from barking for over 90 seconds at the very longest after 10:00 PM.

It is also unreasonable for the dog owner to have any dog that barks at anything that makes even the slightest noise, anything that moves in the neighborhood, and/or other barking dogs hundreds of yards or even miles away and not have someone that is capable (not a small child with a large dog) to be physically in the yard with the dog, so they can have a reasonable way to successfully prevent or at least stop the barking very quickly at times between the hours of 1:30 AM and ½ hour before sunrise.... ...?:hmmm:

Of course it would be unreasonable to expect these things. And I'm not expecting the dogs owners to control their barking after 10pm 365 nights a year. But what I'm seeing here is a total disregard of any consideration whatsoever, day and night. I rarely if ever hear a neighbor telling their dog to quiet down. Isn't it "reasonable" to at least expect a dog owner to quiet his dogs in the middle of the night? Is that too much to ask? Because it doesn't happen here in "Kennel Canyon."

When I lived in Gurneville and had joint responsibility and ownership for 6 dogs total (before we were able to place the puppies) I could not tolerate our own dogs barking at things that were not invasive or just barking enough to bother reasonable neighbors. In fact I was just as (sometimes more so) concerned about my yelling at "our dogs": "SHUT-UP THE DOG!", would bother the neighbors more than the barking because I sounded angry and I was loud enough to clearly hear my own echo off of the neighbors wall that was several hundred feet away!

Connubial Warthog

02-20-2013, 10:24 AM

The problem here in kennel canyon is underlined by the events of last night. Around 4 in the morning a dog across th canyon began to bark and howl excitedly. It woke me up and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. It went on for hours, at least until dawn. The owners HAD to have been aware of it- I mean how could they not!? Yet nothing was done to silence the dog. I'm not sure which dog it was- it may have been one I haven't noticed before. There are too many to keep track of anymore. And it's tricky identifying where it's coming from when bouncing across the canyon. At any rate, for the 3rd time in less than a week, my sleep was disturbed. I should've gotten up and recorded it but it was too freaking cold. What do do? I'm not sure.

I believe I addressed those questions... ...in the post.

I am wondering if you read the first part of my post and reacted to it without reading the whole post or if you somehow misunderstood:...... ...?:hmmm:

Hotspring 44

02-20-2013, 11:55 AM

Re:
The problem here in kennel canyon is underlined by the events of last night. Around 4 in the morning a dog across th canyon began to bark and howl excitedly. It woke me up and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. It went on for hours, at least until dawn. The owners HAD to have been aware of it- I mean how could they not!? Yet nothing was done to silence the dog. I'm not sure which dog it was- it may have been one I haven't noticed before. There are too many to keep track of anymore. And it's tricky identifying where it's coming from when bouncing across the canyon. At any rate, for the 3rd time in less than a week, my sleep was disturbed. I should've gotten up and recorded it but it was too freaking cold. What do do? I'm not sure.

That situation you describe is similar to one a friend of mine had in rural Sonoma County. He was able to tell where the barking dog was located and who owned the dog.
Because of the area (distance between homes) he was able to make a formal complaint with animal control as one person.

Your situation seems to me to be different in that you haven’t been able to identify exactly where the nuisance barking is coming from.
I don’t know what the distances is between homes where you are or the size of subdivided properties but where my friend livs, the lots are 40 or more acres.

You and hopefully at least one neighbor may have to get together and find out where the nuisance barking actually is coming from. That will take some initiation and effort on your part.
I think it is up to you to decide if the effort is worth the time necessary to accomplish mitigating the nuisance. I don’t think anyone said it would be easy... ...it won’t.

What I am saying is that there are ways to eventually put a stop to the public nuisance if you can't get the dog owner to control the barking, howling, etc.
When you have made attempts to solve such issues and were unsuccessful with your attempts, don't give-up, we all (probably you in this case, will) have to go through it one step at a time for it to actually come to the problem being solved.

In any event, if it comes to it, Sonoma County Animal Control has records of who has licensed dogs so you could start there with a generalized written complaint, County Animal Control has people to talk to and I am sure they have a complaint form you can fill if you want to file a formal complaint.

FWIW, if you decide to file a complaint, I think you should fill and file the complaint form with Animal Control even if it says there has to be more than one complainer on it (first ask if there is another form that does not require more than your signature) because you still have to establish yourself. You have to start the process somewhere to get the ball rolling...
...To keep the ball rolling...
...If the outcome with the first few steps in the process ends up being unsatisfactory, you could write a detailed, registered letter to the DA and/or your supervisors if you believe the outcome from that has either shown flaws in the laws or has ignored your lawful right to peace in your home and domicile.

Connubial Warthog

02-20-2013, 12:44 PM

thanks, I guess its time to get the ball rolling. Next time I will get up and record it and drive over there to identify the house and number. Pain in the butt but it must be done. thanks for all of your suggestions.

Re:

That situation you describe is similar to one a friend of mine had in rural Sonoma County. He was able to tell where the barking dog was located and who owned the dog.
Because of the area (distance between homes) he was able to make a formal complaint with animal control as one person.

Your situation seems to me to be different in that you haven’t been able to identify exactly where the nuisance barking is coming from.
I don’t know what the distances is between homes where you are or the size of subdivided properties but where my friend livs, the lots are 40 or more acres.

You and hopefully at least one neighbor may have to get together and find out where the nuisance barking actually is coming from. That will take some initiation and effort on your part.
I think it is up to you to decide if the effort is worth the time necessary to accomplish mitigating the nuisance. I don’t think anyone said it would be easy... ...it won’t.

What I am saying is that there are ways to eventually put a stop to the public nuisance if you can't get the dog owner to control the barking, howling, etc.
When you have made attempts to solve such issues and were unsuccessful with your attempts, don't give-up, we all (probably you in this case, will) have to go through it one step at a time for it to actually come to the problem being solved.

In any event, if it comes to it, Sonoma County Animal Control has records of who has licensed dogs so you could start there with a generalized written complaint, County Animal Control has people to talk to and I am sure they have a complaint form you can fill if you want to file a formal complaint.

FWIW, if you decide to file a complaint, I think you should fill and file the complaint form with Animal Control even if it says there has to be more than one complainer on it (first ask if there is another form that does not require more than your signature) because you still have to establish yourself. You have to start the process somewhere to get the ball rolling...
...To keep the ball rolling...
...If the outcome with the first few steps in the process ends up being unsatisfactory, you could write a detailed, registered letter to the DA and/or your supervisors if you believe the outcome from that has either shown flaws in the laws or has ignored your lawful right to peace in your home and domicile.

Oceans11

02-20-2013, 04:04 PM

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-02-20_16-35-32.pngMe I love to hear the coyotes, foxes, wolves, owls and other creatures night and day. I know most people may not agree and many people dont like coyotes, but I do. Those creatures bring me peace. I also know that constant dog barking can be disruptive and annoying and I understand, sympathize with those who suffer the constant annoyance of dog barking, poop and aggressive behaviors.

One more thing, Dixon, I think it is irresponsible to call names when you don't know the facts. That's nice that you are willing to listen to another side but I believe you don't know what's in another person's heart and you should give them (me) the benefit of the doubt. I figured Alexia must have some big pain that would cause her to behave that way. You might notice that I did not start a thread about an angry woman harrassing me for nothing when I was in so much pain already. Maybe she has nothing better to do.

busterboy

02-20-2013, 10:47 PM

I have followed this thread on and off. I appreciate people's efforts to try to deal with their particular situation in as rational and as compassionate manner as possible, involving some dog owners whose level of awareness seems to be clearly inferior to that of their animal companions. What I am going to suggest is sure to incur the wrath of those animal lovers who seem to believe that animals are entitled to the same inalienable rights as humans. However, when all else fails...when one is dealing with a truly selfish, irresponsible, ignorant dog owner, I would have no qualms about tossing a tasty piece of meat that has been injected with a suitable poison into this person's yard to eliminate the offending animal. It's a drastic action to be sure, against an essentially "innocent" being, but until a more effective barking ordinance is in place and is enforced in a consistent manner, one must take whatever measures are necessary...as long as we live in a dog-eat-dog world! In the interest of full disclosure, I have zero interest in dogs, preferring the companionship of cats!

Connubial Warthog

02-20-2013, 11:31 PM

Well, I can't go there at all. I could never kill an animal like that. As much as I sometimes wish these animals would disappear, I could never condone anything like that. In truth, I find this offensive, but I understand the frustration that could lead people to entertain these thoughts. As for me, I'm looking at all my options within the boundaries of our legal system. I'll keep people apprised of my progress. Now I think I'm leaving this thread.

I have followed this thread on and off. I appreciate people's efforts to try to deal with their particular situation in as rational and as compassionate manner as possible, involving some dog owners whose level of awareness seems to be clearly inferior to that of their animal companions. What I am going to suggest is sure to incur the wrath of those animal lovers who seem to believe that animals are entitled to the same inalienable rights as humans. However, when all else fails...when one is dealing with a truly selfish, irresponsible, ignorant dog owner, I would have no qualms about tossing a tasty piece of meat that has been injected with a suitable poison into this person's yard to eliminate the offending animal. It's a drastic action to be sure, against an essentially "innocent" being, but until a more effective barking ordinance is in place and is enforced in a consistent manner, one must take whatever measures are necessary...as long as we live in a dog-eat-dog world! In the interest of full disclosure, I have zero interest in dogs, preferring the companionship of cats!

Connubial Warthog

02-20-2013, 11:37 PM

I love the sound of distant coyotes, owls, foxes etc, but you know, they are generally not heard much around here, partially because of all the dogs. I have no problem with the rare occasions I hear these creatures. It's a treat. It's a completely different thing with dogs-no comparison to the daily grind. And no night creature has ever caused me to lose sleep-except the neighborhood dogs.

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-02-20_16-35-32.pngMe I love to hear the coyotes, foxes, wolves, owls and other creatures night and day. I know most people may not agree and many people dont like coyotes, but I do. Those creatures bring me peace. I also know that constant dog barking can be disruptive and annoying and I understand, sympathize with those who suffer the constant annoyance of dog barking, poop and aggressive behaviors.

Hotspring 44

02-21-2013, 11:32 AM

Note: (woops!)... ...so, I corrected a word error that was a big contextual mistake, (I overlooked the spell checker and pressed the wrong word in it)... ...word changed, from "honorable" to "horrible".

I have known people who are either prejudiced against dogs and love their cats and same against cats and for dogs, some to an extreme.

I have also heard the same (poisoning) said about "offending" cats that pose a health hazard (https://www.vet.cornell.edu/FHC/brochures/ZoonoticDisease.html) because they sometimes transmit diseases by, as example, ("trespassing") cat/s contaminates a child's sand box or a neighbor's garden (which was a topic on another thread) in neighbors yard by using it for a poo toilet and also the fact that domestic cats, both the feral and cared for ones kill many wild birds:

Cats Kill Over 1 Billion Birds Each Year in U.S. (https://birdchaser.blogspot.com/2008/03/cats-kill-over-1-billion-birds-each.html)https://birdchaser.blogspot.com/2008/03/cats-kill-over-1-billion-birds-each.html

I love cats, dogs, and the vast majority of the native spices of wild animals and believe that even the ones I have had nuisance issues with, particularly racoons; even they have a reason to exist and should not be treated abusively or wantonly (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/wantonly) killed to the point of being either endangered species or to extinction.

Of course I understand you are suggesting one way of dealing with a nuisance-dog/dog-owner situation where there is not an issue of it causing an"extinction" of anything... ...But you did mention, or at least hint that you prefer cats over dogs, so I think it would be reasonable for me to believe you are at least a little biased against dogs in the first place.

Furthermore, would you also suggest that someone who has a problem with cats defecating in their yard, child's sand box, or garden, going into their yard and killing their pet bunny, etc should also, after making attempts to have it's owner be responsible enough to keep their cat out of those places that the cat should be poisoned?...
...I could be wrong, but I am guessing your answer would be a "No" because you indicated a bias for cats and against dogs.

But as far as taking the law, so to speak, into your own hands and poisoning the offending dog, that is over the top and is a horrible and risky thing to suggest to someone:

1- it is most likely a felony, and, if caught, would jeopardize the well being of the person doing the poisoning and potentially their family member/s who depends on that person.
2- What if the dog owner is prone to retaliation?... ...and what if that dog owner retaliates on someone innocent!?:hmmm:...
...That is a possibility if someone else has already complained about the nuisance to the dog owner, the dog's owner could conclude that person who complained did the deed.

:2cents:Over all,cat or dog, WRONG!... ... BAD IDEA!:nono:

However, when all else fails...when one is dealing with a truly selfish, irresponsible, ignorant dog owner, I would have no qualms about tossing a tasty piece of meat that has been injected with a suitable poison into this person's yard to eliminate the offending animal. It's a drastic action to be sure, against an essentially "innocent" being, but until a more effective barking ordinance is in place and is enforced in a consistent manner, one must take whatever measures are necessary...as long as we live in a dog-eat-dog world! In the interest of full disclosure, I have zero interest in dogs, preferring the companionship of cats!

Barry

02-21-2013, 11:58 AM

However, when all else fails...when one is dealing with a truly selfish, irresponsible, ignorant dog owner, I would have no qualms about tossing a tasty piece of meat that has been injected with a suitable poison into this person's yard to eliminate the offending animal.

I'm aghast you would truly consider murdering someone's loved pet, let alone posting it publicly. If you post any further heartless thoughts, it will be clear that you are not part of "conscious community".

Barry

02-21-2013, 11:59 AM

I don't want to get into a she-said/she-said, or rather your dog is barking - no s/he's not, so I ask that Alexia and Marilyn refrain from posting further on this thread. I hope they can find a resolution that works for them.
Marilyn has informed me that she has unsubscribed from this thread, and Alexia would like to continue to post to it without getting into the specifics of her situation. That's fine by me.

Dixon

02-21-2013, 12:02 PM

I would stop short of endorsing poisoning the offending dog(s), mainly because of the issue of punishing the dogs for what is really the dog owner's fault, though if the poison were of a type that kills painlessly I can sure see being tempted to use it in some situations! My most delicious fantasy in such situations is to slip the poisoned meat onto the dog owner's dinner table. :idea:

Dixon

02-21-2013, 12:14 PM

BTW, on those occasions when someone is driven to the desperate act of killing the dog after the dog owner has refused to correct the problem, I would consider that to be the dog owner's fault. That's where our ire should be mostly directed in such situations.

Connubial Warthog

02-21-2013, 12:32 PM

Never a reason to kill an innocent animal, but I can certainly see why someone might entertain such thoughts.
Better to channel them into something regenerative , creative etc.

BTW, on those occasions when someone is driven to the desperate act of killing the dog after the dog owner has refused to correct the problem, I would consider that to be the dog owner's fault. That's where our ire should be mostly directed in such situations.

peggykarp

02-21-2013, 12:48 PM

What's significant here is how normally decent folks are driven to such caninecidal thoughts by the barking. I certainly have been! My super-ego is in firm command and I wouldn't ever actually harm an animal, but I sure have thought of it. Incessant barking is really a form of torture to the human nervous system.

Dixon

02-21-2013, 01:25 PM

Never a reason to kill an innocent animal...
I guess you're a vegetarian then, Brian?

Connubial Warthog

02-21-2013, 03:59 PM

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am.

I guess you're a vegetarian then, Brian?

Mary C

02-21-2013, 08:57 PM

Perhaps this poster is just trying to stir things up with inflammatory comments, but I'll bite because there are people who poison animals because of this kind of fallacious reasoning. Let's take busterboy’s solution one step further to see if it holds up: Should we kill innocent children who are wildly irritating and entitled as a result of their parents' non-existent parenting skills? How about a child in Safeway who knows his parent will eventually give in and buy him the candy he's screaming for, because that parent refuses to learn the basics of child development, employ appropriate boundaries and discipline, or inconvenience him or herself by taking the offending child out of the store? When the child throws a seemingly endless screaming, screeching fit, does busterboy advocate poisoning the kid's Skittles? Come on.

Talking about exterminating living, sentient beings that inconvenience us is a slippery slope. History shows us the result of this dangerous thinking. I do understand how one can be pushed to the brink, though: I too have been driven insane by incessant barking, and have spent many a sleepless night feeling not only irritated, but heartbroken for the abused/neglected animals. I have tried to train dogs through the fence, used barking deterrents, begged animal owners to let me walk their dogs daily, sent anonymous notes, made face-to-face requests for peace, and have prayed for sanity. But murdering animals because of their human companions' shortcomings? That is exactly the same type of ignorant, irresponsible selfishness that busterboy so decries.

Collectively, aren't we better than that? I have to believe so, or I'll poison my own Skittles, for god's sake.

I have followed this thread on and off. I appreciate people's efforts to try to deal with their particular situation in as rational and as compassionate manner as possible, involving some dog owners whose level of awareness seems to be clearly inferior to that of their animal companions. What I am going to suggest is sure to incur the wrath of those animal lovers who seem to believe that animals are entitled to the same inalienable rights as humans. However, when all else fails...when one is dealing with a truly selfish, irresponsible, ignorant dog owner, I would have no qualms about tossing a tasty piece of meat that has been injected with a suitable poison into this person's yard to eliminate the offending animal. It's a drastic action to be sure, against an essentially "innocent" being, but until a more effective barking ordinance is in place and is enforced in a consistent manner, one must take whatever measures are necessary...as long as we live in a dog-eat-dog world! In the interest of full disclosure, I have zero interest in dogs, preferring the companionship of cats!

Mary C

02-21-2013, 09:09 PM

Being an irresponsible, passive-aggressive dog owner hardly constitutes the basis for justifiable homicide!

I have to believe that some of these posters are just trying to rile up the good people on this board for their own amusement.

BTW, on those occasions when someone is driven to the desperate act of killing the dog after the dog owner has refused to correct the problem, I would consider that to be the dog owner's fault. That's where our ire should be mostly directed in such situations.

Oceans11

02-21-2013, 09:30 PM

THere must be a lot of rage When People are talking about poisoning and killing their neighbor's pets. This rage is understandable. But poisoning the dogs, does Not solve the problem and it will only create more rage and violence. THis causes me to think that this Los Angeles ordinance would solve these dog problems if it were implemented here in sonoma county. With all these folks complaining why dont they all get together and go to the board of supes and city councils and demand such an ordinance here. I love dogs and animals but in sonoma county I have seen a lot of rude, disrespectful behavior with humans and their pets. Also I have seen people encourage their pets to harrass, intimidate and chase wild animals in the parks, or let their pets poop all over the place. It is time for some boundaries and for more effective policies with animal control.

I get tired of hearing people cry on this thread over and over again. I feel like saying stand up for yourself and go out and do something effective with the laws and policies and inept officials, employtees who allow these pet problems to go on and on and on. Demand the board of supes implement an effective ordinace to control barking, pooping and other disrespectful behaviors. Or make sure the animal control has effective policies and committed, motivated employees in place to deal with these problems when they occur.

Los Angeles Gives Bite to Bark Law
By Jon Bastian

https://www.cesarsway.com/images/features/2011/November/2DogsBarkHowling.jpgThe Los Angeles City Council and Mayor have passed a new Ordinance to give the Department of Animal Services authority over nuisance dog complaints, whether the dog is licensed or not. Previously, the Department could only hear such matters if the dog was licensed, which created a Catch-22 situation. As explained by Mitchell Englander, Chair of the City’s Public Safety Committee, “In effect, owners of unlicensed dogs are treated more leniently than owners of licensed dogs. (This) Ordinance allows the Department to… impose conditions and restrictions including issuing an order to remove nuisance dogs.”
The Ordinance also defines for the first time excessive “whining, barking, howling, or similar dog noise.” Under the new law, the noise must be continuously audible for ten minutes, or intermittently audible for thirty minutes within a three hour period. These provisions do not apply to any legally permitted commercial animal establishment, such as a doggie day care. Penalties are $ 250 for the first offense, increasing to $ 1,000 for a third offense.
The law also creates a new Restricted Dog Permit to be issued in the case of a dog biting (https://www.cesarsway.com/channel/dog-behavior/dog-biting), attacking, or injuring a person non-fatally due to owner negligence. This Permit, which is $120 in addition to regular license fees, also requires the owner of the dog to post warning signs on their property, and maintain at least $ 100,000 of liability insurance. The new regulations go into effect in early December. You can find text of the Ordinance here. (https://clkrep.lacity.org/onlinedocs/2011/11-0922_misc_11-1-11.pdf)
Are there nuisance barking regulations where you live? If so, how are they handled and what are the penalties? Let us know in the comments.

Barry

02-21-2013, 09:52 PM

Good Post. I sent it to Efren's assistant as a suggestion. Some specificity is sorely needed when it comes to what is OK and what is not.

I encourage you all to contact Efren ([email protected]) or your supervisor to suggest they upgrade the ordinance regarding barking.

THere must be a lot of rage When People are talking about poisoning and killing their neighbor's pets. This rage is understandable. But poisoning the dogs, does Not solve the problem and it will only create more rage and violence. THis causes me to think that this Los Angeles ordinance would solve these dog problems if it were implemented here in sonoma county. With all these folks complaining why dont they all get together and go to the board of supes and city councils and demand such an ordinance here. I love dogs and animals but in sonoma county I have seen a lot of rude, disrespectful behavior with humans and their pets. Also I have seen people encourage their pets to harrass, intimidate and chase wild animals in the parks, or let their pets poop all over the place. It is time for some boundaries and for more effective policies with animal control.

I get tired of hearing people cry on this thread over and over again. I feel like saying stand up for yourself and go out and do something effective with the laws and policies and inept officials, employtees who allow these pet problems to go on and on and on. Demand the board of supes implement an effective ordinace to control barking, pooping and other disrespectful behaviors. Or make sure the animal control has effective policies and committed, motivated employees in place to deal with these problems when they occur.

Dixon

02-21-2013, 09:54 PM

Dixon wrote:
I guess you're a vegetarian then, Brian?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am.
Good, then your position on this is consistent, not hypocritical.

What really blows my mind in discussions of this sort of issue is people who have no problem with killing innocent cows, chickens, fish, etc. (i.e., anyone who's not vegetarian) while howling that it's immoral to kill dogs, cats or other animals considered pets in this particular culture.

linferro

02-21-2013, 09:59 PM

you're kidding, right? You'd kill a dog cause it's barking and bothering you? sigh.

I would have no qualms about tossing a tasty piece of meat that has been injected with a suitable poison into this person's yard to eliminate the offending animal.

Dixon

02-21-2013, 10:04 PM

I have to believe that some of these posters are just trying to rile up the good people on this board for their own amusement.
No you don't "have to believe" that, Mary; you choose to believe it.

I understand that you have a strong emotional response to this issue; many of us do. Allow me to suggest that jumping to negative, insulting, and (in my case at least) untrue assumptions about people's motivations for saying things you don't agree with is not a constructive response.

podfish

02-22-2013, 08:01 AM

What really blows my mind in discussions of this sort of issue is people who have no problem with killing innocent cows, chickens, fish, etc. (i.e., anyone who's not vegetarian) while howling that it's immoral to kill dogs, cats or other animals considered pets in this particular culture.wow, this has wandered afield, hasn't it?<br><br>Everyone's different regarding what blows their mind. This one doesn't surprise me, and shouldn't surprise anyone who's met humans before. We make all kind of wacky distinctions and sort things into what may appear to be arbitrary groupings. You may not find the sorting criteria one that you personally would use, but usually you can at least figure out what it is. There are a whole bunch of differences between cows and dogs... and for most people, dogs make better pets. For many of those on this thread, I'd bet they wish most people preferred cows!

ceg1948

02-22-2013, 08:21 AM

you are the kind of person that i keep reading about in the papers and on websites for animals. this is a criminal act that you're considering busterboy. if that's your idea of how to deal with the situation then you need some therapy....seriously.

I would have no qualms about tossing a tasty piece of meat that has been injected with a suitable poison into this person's yard to eliminate the offending animal.

msl

02-22-2013, 10:27 AM

Connubial Warthog

02-22-2013, 10:44 AM

Thanks for your post. It inspires me to take action too and not just sit around and complain. From what I hear, the barking problem has become an issue with many residents in west county. Apparently there are people speaking out. So I'm going to add my voice and see if we can't get a little more action out of Animal Control than just a polite letter to the offending animals owner. It's time to toughen up our noise laws in West County.

And while we're at it, how's about another civilizing regulation- on bright spotlights that ruin the peaceful feel of my canyon at nite? Downward facing fixtures and lower wattage bulbs would fix the light pollution. It's ridiculous:I have one neighbor who is paranoid that coyotes will eat his goats or something- he points two 900 watt halogen bulbs straight into the street 24/7- the light goes right into a neighbors 9-year-old kid's bedroom. We have spoken to him about these lights- he won't remove them. How can this be legal? I've got 'em with no fixtures across the canyon too. Even John McCain recognized this problem and got some legislation on this passed on Arizona. Damn.

You know, west county isn't as rural as it used to be. It's basically the 'burbs with more trees. Things have changed- it's no longer summer homes with a few full timers. It hasnt been like that for decades. It time for our laws need to reflect those changes.

<style>@font-face { font-family: "ＭＳ明朝"; }@font-face { font-family: "ＭＳ明朝"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Cambria; }.MsoChpDefault { font-family: Cambria; }div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }</style> Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I’m going to take your suggestion and Barry’s and write to Efren Carillo to see how we can change the existing laws.

peggykarp

02-22-2013, 11:22 AM

I will also write to Efren urging action. A barking ordinance for the out-of-city limits areas is badly needed.

Connubial Warthog

02-22-2013, 11:35 AM

I just did.

I will also write to Efren urging action. A barking ordinance for the out-of-city limits areas is badly needed.

Barry

02-22-2013, 05:11 PM

I want to invite DOG OWNERS :dogdance: to also post their thoughts to this thread! I will moderate this thread closely to be sure you are treated with respect.

Also, I know this a very active thread that is generating a lot of email for those of you getting instant emails.

If you want to stop the instant emails click the https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-02-22_17-10-42.png button on the bottom of any email you get from this thread (including this one).

You can also remove this thread from your digest by clicking on https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-02-23_13-01-43.png at the bottom of this post (or any post on this thread). Keep in mind this techniques work across all threads on WaccoBB.net :waccosun:

( The prior post about unsubscribe not working was due to multiple user accounts on WaccoBB. Please let me know if you have any trouble with this feature. It does require you to be logged into the website)

I feel that this has been a very worthy discusion, that may well result in a change to the County Noise Ordinance!

Barry

Oceans11

02-22-2013, 06:01 PM

It is not just the barking that causes problems. This county overall really needs a more effective noise ordinance. People move up to this county only to find it noisy here and that it is quieter and more peaceful in the city. The county area is one of the noisiest areas ever lived. The pet issue is just one symptom of a myriad of other problems all stemming from this issue of ill mannered people who lack some sort of social skills, empathy, concern and respect for the boundaries and privacy of others. In some areas you can easily communicate with your neighbors and the offense or problem is quickly resolved and never occurs again. In some areas people are motivated to be good neighbors, to not annoy anyone else and to maintain peace, get along. Unfortunately this does not seem to occur often in this county. Sure would like to see that happen here on a regular basis.

West county has a lot of constant noise from loud stereos, partys, very loud car engines, motorcycles and cars speeding around with No mufflers. There are also constant chain saws, hammering, machinery,. All this that goes on sunrise to sun down. These types of disturbances are not legally permitted or allowed to continue in most other areas. But here there are not adequate policies laws and staff in place to deal with these disturbances. THe legislators will say that they lack the resources, staff, money, back up to implement astronger more effective noise disturbance policies. Yet they have the money, resources and staff for so many other things. It does appear evident that there needs to be a noise ordinance to deal with things.

The quality of life certainly would improve if sonoma county would adopt such an ordinance to maintain the peace. Those who are suffering from noise disturbances into their homes and lives need privacy protection and boundaries. Those people who do not know how to respect other people need some parameters with clear regulations and laws so that they can learn how to control their behaviors. A noise ordinance would likely prevent ill wiil, hostility, violence from developing and help everyone live in peace and get along.

Regarding the barking, the gist of this issue seems to be that pet owners need to become socially and legally responsible and accountable for the behaviors of their pets. I would not just limit this to intrusive barking problems, but would also include all harmful, annoying, intrusive behaviors. Many areas have animal control regulations that make the pet owner legally and financially responsible for cleaning up after their pet, controlling their pets behavior be it barking, aggressive threatening behaviors, preventing your pets from running through other people's yards, charging other animals, chasing harassing wildlife, etc. These are called nuisance laws and are enforceable with fines and eventual removal, confiscation of the pet when the owner fails to repeatedly take responsibility for their pet wether it is a dog, cat, gorilla or fish. These policys may sound severe, but it seems that people often indulge, spoil their pets and fail to teach their pets limits, boundaries and respectful social behavior.

From the comments I have heard it appears that some folks believe it is OK for a pet to create, discomfort, disturbance and problems for other humans, animals and wildlife. There seems to be a lack of understanding and consensus that this approach is problematic, anti social and narcissiisstic. Not good for the animal either who is spoiled instead of taught limits. I have lived in areas where people regularly control their pets and stop problems from developing. The barking and pet problems remind me of people who are into spoiling and indulging a child instead of teaching the child limits and respect for other people and their boundaries. It all makes me think that this county would benefit from a noise ordinance. The county does not want to do it and the sheriff police will say they do not have the staff or resources to hire more staff or to enforce such an ordinance. Yet it is our tax dollars and isn't it time all of our tax dollars are returned to us and spent on something that would improve the quality of life here, .

<style>@font-face { font-family: "ＭＳ明朝"; }@font-face { font-family: "ＭＳ明朝"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Cambria; }.MsoChpDefault { font-family: Cambria; }div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }</style>

podfish

02-22-2013, 06:20 PM

It is not just the barking that causes problems.People move up to this county only to find it noisy here and that it is quieter and more peaceful in the city. The county area is one of the noisiest areas ever lived. ....pretty funny - country mouse vs. city mouse!<br><br>ag areas are by definition pastoral, but not in the sense most people think. It's a cliche that people who move to the country complain that the farmers who run their tractors at dawn are a problem.<br>I'm not picking on you, Oceans11 - I'm just pointing out that rural environments have their own pollution problems, whether it's chemical or aural. And it's most surprising to people who've come from urban environments.<br>I've lived in both; I hated barking dogs when I was in urban areas, but I got quickly resigned to them here. On the other hand, trying to sleep when there's constant traffic noise, or passer-bys talking, is now a problem when I visit the city.

Connubial Warthog

02-22-2013, 06:51 PM

I couldn't agree more. You have accurately reflected my feelings regarding these issues. I totally agree-the barking is just the tip of the iceberg. As a longtime resident of 39 years, I think I can state with some authority that times have changed. When once upon a time there were many summer homes and only a few full time residents out here, almost all the homes out here are occupied year round. Let's face it folks: this is no longer the Wild West. With today's housing costs and the high cost of living, we should expect our quality of life to reflect these changes. Why should it be noisier here than in say, a neighborhood in Santa Rosa?

An example: Over the past month one of my new neighbors across the canyon have subjected me to a new rooster (on the deck facing the canyon!) two new dogs that bark in the middle of the nite, shooting off 22 rifles (apparently legal for target practice within a "reasonable distance from other houses,), gunning the engine of a souped up motorcycle (with a 3rd party muffler engineered to be as loud as possible,) and now with the nicer weather, he's running a country music station in the afternoons on his deck facing the canyon (which acts like a giant amplifier,) so I have to keep my windows closed, He also has a bright CFL light facing the canyon 24/7. And that's just one guy! ...and don't get me started about the crazy goat man who has had as many as 30 goats across the street from me in a 500 sq ft pen! What stink! And PRMD said that was legal.(because he is the only guy around here who owns almost an acre.)

It really is time to take a look at our antiquated and inadequate noise ordinances and perhaps implement some regs regarding outdoor lights. I am sick and tired of halogen spotlights all over my neighborhood.

I know this is going to piss some people off but I think we should also revisit the sacred Rural Residential regs. I mean really-is it cool to have a rooster in what amounts to a suburb with a few extra trees?

I have written Efren regarding some of these issues and intend to do my part to start the ball rolling. It is time to make some serious changes out here. I am tired of being intimidated and told to suck it up.

Thanks for your articulate summation of my feelings and the feelings of many west county residents who feel as we do.maybe this thread will inspire other people to take action.

It is not just the barking that causes problems. This county overall really needs a more effective noise ordinance. People move up to this county only to find it noisy here and that it is quieter and more peaceful in the city. The county area is one of the noisiest areas ever lived. The pet issue is just one symptom of a myriad of other problems all stemming from this issue of ill mannered people who lack some sort of social skills, empathy, concern and respect for the boundaries and privacy of others. In some areas you can easily communicate with your neighbors and the offense or problem is quickly resolved and never occurs again. In some areas people are motivated to be good neighbors, to not annoy anyone else and to maintain peace, get along. Unfortunately this does not seem to occur often in this county. Sure would like to see that happen here on a regular basis.

West county has a lot of constant noise from loud stereos, partys, very loud car engines, motorcycles and cars speeding around with No mufflers. There are also constant chain saws, hammering, machinery,. All this that goes on sunrise to sun down. These types of disturbances are not legally permitted or allowed to continue in most other areas. But here there are not adequate policies laws and staff in place to deal with these disturbances. THe legislators will say that they lack the resources, staff, money, back up to implement astronger more effective noise disturbance policies. Yet they have the money, resources and staff for so many other things. It does appear evident that there needs to be a noise ordinance to deal with things.

The quality of life certainly would improve if sonoma county would adopt such an ordinance to maintain the peace. Those who are suffering from noise disturbances into their homes and lives need privacy protection and boundaries. Those people who do not know how to respect other people need some parameters with clear regulations and laws so that they can learn how to control their behaviors. A noise ordinance would likely prevent ill wiil, hostility, violence from developing and help everyone live in peace and get along.

Regarding the barking, the gist of this issue seems to be that pet owners need to become socially and legally responsible and accountable for the behaviors of their pets. I would not just limit this to intrusive barking problems, but would also include all harmful, annoying, intrusive behaviors. Many areas have animal control regulations that make the pet owner legally and financially responsible for cleaning up after their pet, controlling their pets behavior be it barking, aggressive threatening behaviors, preventing your pets from running through other people's yards, charging other animals, chasing harassing wildlife, etc. These are called nuisance laws and are enforceable with fines and eventual removal, confiscation of the pet when the owner fails to repeatedly take responsibility for their pet wether it is a dog, cat, gorilla or fish. These policys may sound severe, but it seems that people often indulge, spoil their pets and fail to teach their pets limits, boundaries and respectful social behavior.

From the comments I have heard it appears that some folks believe it is OK for a pet to create, discomfort, disturbance and problems for other humans, animals and wildlife. There seems to be a lack of understanding and consensus that this approach is problematic, anti social and narcissiisstic. Not good for the animal either who is spoiled instead of taught limits. I have lived in areas where people regularly control their pets and stop problems from developing. The barking and pet problems remind me of people who are into spoiling and indulging a child instead of teaching the child limits and respect for other people and their boundaries. It all makes me think that this county would benefit from a noise ordinance. The county does not want to do it and the sheriff police will say they do not have the staff or resources to hire more staff or to enforce such an ordinance. Yet it is our tax dollars and isn't it time all of our tax dollars are returned to us and spent on something that would improve the quality of life here, .

Connubial Warthog

02-22-2013, 06:53 PM

And by the way, this is not ag I'm talking about-I'm speaking to RR zoning only.

pretty funny - country mouse vs. city mouse!

ag areas are by definition pastoral, but not in the sense most people think. It's a cliche that people who move to the country complain that the farmers who run their tractors at dawn are a problem.
I'm not picking on you, Oceans11 - I'm just pointing out that rural environments have their own pollution problems, whether it's chemical or aural. And it's most surprising to people who've come from urban environments.
I've lived in both; I hated barking dogs when I was in urban areas, but I got quickly resigned to them here. On the other hand, trying to sleep when there's constant traffic noise, or passer-bys talking, is now a problem when I visit the city.

Dixon

02-22-2013, 07:46 PM

Everyone's different regarding what blows their mind.
Of course, but "what blows my mind" and "what's immoral and shouldn't be allowed" are two different things--a point many people don't get ("Homosexuality grosses me out; therefore it's wrong" etc.). When people take their personal feelings of outrage or whatever as reason to prohibit something or even to judge it as immoral, they're slipping into what the Critical Thinking community refers to as "egocentric and sociocentric thinking."

We make all kind of wacky distinctions and sort things into what may appear to be arbitrary groupings. You may not find the sorting criteria one that you personally would use, but usually you can at least figure out what it is.
I would never dispute someone's right to feel however they feel, but when we go beyond feelings into the realm of moral judgment (and even beyond into prohibiting certain behaviors), not all sorting criteria are created equal; some are more reasonable than others, and some are ego- or socio-centric, thus not appropriately applied to other people.

There are a whole bunch of differences between cows and dogs...
Of course. There are differences between any two things we can name. But vis-a-vis the current discussion, the question is "Are there any objective differences between cows and dogs (as opposed to differences in how we feel about them) that would reasonably lead to different criteria for whether, how, or in what circumstances they may appropriately, morally be killed?"

This topic is very emotional for many, myself included, and emotional topics tend to lead to polarizing, sometimes self-righteous outbursts that miss ambiguities, nuances, and appropriate uncertainty. Is it immoral to kill cows in India but moral in the USA? Is it immoral to kill and eat horses in the USA but not in France? Is it immoral to kill and eat dogs in the USA but not in Switzerland? Or is there one moral standard that should cover the whole planet and, if so, which one? The standard of the country with the most military might? Perhaps it should be illegal to kill dogs in the USA unless you eat them? Do we all have a moral obligation to be strict vegetarians? Should we be sweeping the path in front of us like Jainist monks do to minimize the chance that we're stepping on bugs? And if it's okay to kill bugs but not to kill other animals we like better, isn't that self-centered thinking? Does an animal's "right to life" depend on whether we find it pretty, ugly or cuddly? Does it seem to anyone here that there's an easy, indisputable answer to this stuff? [A lot of this is moot for vegetarians, but it's still not as simple as some might like to think. Even most--all?--vegetarians benefit from industries that kill animals in one way or another.]

Some of you may be interested to know that I'll be devoting an upcoming installment of my WaccoBB column "The Gospel Acccording to Dixon" to our relationships with animals, but it'll be at least a few months before I get to that topic in the scheme of things...

msl

02-22-2013, 08:25 PM