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Twisted Minis
01-18-2013, 01:46 PM
"Written by a 14 yr old HS Freshman young lady

My daughter is a Freshman at the Barbara Ingram High School of the Arts. It is a school dedicated to teaching the arts and difficult to get into... all students must go through a tough audition process to be accepted. My daughter is a violinist.
The school's academic program is all honors classes and students must maintain high grades to be allowed to continue through the years... Needless to say I am proud of the fact she made it in and is an honor student... in fact over the last 12 report cards (MS to HS) he has been a Distinguished Honor student and has always maintained at least Honor Student status from 1st grade through today...
This is what my daughter chose for the topic of her Freshman English Essay this semester.... I am rather proud of her.
She only asked that I forward articles I found and would not even let me see the essay until after it was turned in to her teacher.
The last part about the cake is from an article we found online and a very good analogy on gun control..."



Gun Control: Betraying the Law Abiding Citizen



With the recent shootings, it’s no surprise that many people are pushing for stricter gun control. However, I fear that their logic and intentions may be clouded with fear and grief, rather than strengthened with facts. Gun control is possibly one of the worst things that could happen to this country, people who disagree will just have to face the following facts.

I would first like to bring up that most cries for gun control occur after mass shootings. However, mass shootings are a rare occasion and don’t really kill all that many people when they do occur. From the years 1991 to 2004, 20 mass shootings, happened and just about 210 people died as a result. That’s not that many people. I don’t mean to be cold, but if the number of lives lost is really what legislators care about, then accidental drowning would be a more pressing issue. Falling back on my belief that legislators are blinded by emotion, they suffer from “fallacy of misleading vividness”, which is when an event is so emotionally potent that one begins to overestimate the likelihood of its occurrence. Yes, mass shootings are terrible, but they are hardly one of the largest problems we could address.

Another problem is that we currently have an administration that had been against gun rights for a very long time. In a 2004 interview Obama said that he would support the renewal of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, and that he would “continue to support a ban on concealed carry laws.” A ban on concealed carry laws means that a person may not carry a firearm without having it visible to the public. “There are large drops in overall violent crime, murder, rape, and aggravated assault that begin right after the right to carry laws have gone into effect.” said economist Dr. John R. Lott. The ironic thing about Obama cracking down on concealed carry laws is that at the time he was a senator in Illinois, a state where it’s already illegal to carry. Coincidentally Chicago has one of the highest gun crime rates.

All mass shootings in recent years have been the thing that gun control advocates have focused their arguments on. With nowhere else to direct their frustrated emotions, they call upon the renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban.

Since I’ve mentioned it several times, let me explain exactly what an “assault weapon” is. Now, the term “assault weapon” was chosen to create images of military machine guns, in case you’re unfamiliar with firearms, automatic weapons (a.k.a. machine guns) are already practically illegal to own because they are so heavily regulated. In 1994 when the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was drafted, there was no “assault weapons” category. Legislators got to create the category. Mainly what they were opposed to were guns that were military-like in appearance. So basically if the gun looks mean they don’t like it. Let’s take the Rueger 10/22, I was given one over the summer, it’s small, manageable, small caliber (.22), cheap to shoot, and has no real recoil. It’s also one of the most popular guns in the country. Now put a hinged stock, and vertical grip on the Ruger 10/22 and you have an assault rifle. With the new stock and grip, nothing about the firearm has changed except appearance. Haven’t you ever heard the phrase don’t judge a book by its cover? Should we make all decisions and laws based on appearance alone?

Barrel shrouds were also banned. Carolyn McCarthy, a high ranking gun control advocate, after some discussion about her legislation, Tucker Carlson picked ‘barrel shroud’ from her list of banned features, and asked her to explain what it was and why it had to be banned. She admitted that she had absolutely no idea what a barrel shroud was. I’m not trying to personally attack Ms. McCarthy, but why should we allow legislation to be written by people uneducated in the subject they are writing about? A barrel shroud is simply a metal cover that gets placed over the barrel of a gun to prevent the shooter form burning their hands on a hot barrel. While barrel shrouds look mean, they are really just a safety tool.

Only one part of the ban actually had anything to do with function, this was “high capacity” magazines. This category didn’t exist either. The idea is that if mass shooters have larger magazines they can kill more people before the police or an armed citizen intervene. Now there are two things wrong with this idea the first is that the people writing this law happen to be the same people who are against concealed carry laws, the second is that reloading takes all of seconds at most, if the shooter has multiple magazines the difference in time is barely noticeable.

Then there are the voices saying “How many people actually defend their home with an ‘assault rifle’?” I have a story, a fifteen year old boy and his younger sister were home alone, the house happened to have an AR-15 (a gun recently classified as an ‘assault rifle’).Armed robbers tried to break in and the boy defended himself and his sister with the AR-15. The boy defended both his life and his sister’s life with an assault rifle effectively stopping the robbery.

When the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired in 2004, the results weren’t as the legislators had planned. According to the National Institute of Justice said that the ban hadn’t reduced gun grime or crime involving “high capacity magazines”, and that “assault weapons” were rarely used in crimes even before the ban.” The Center for Disease Control (still not quite sure what they have to do with guns???) found “insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence.”

The Brady Campaign, the strongest advocate for gun bans, has revised the definition of mass shooting to be all drive-bys involving a shot fired toward three or more people, regardless of whether anyone was even actually hurt. Leading to their conclusion that there are twenty mass shootings every year. Now is it just me or does this seem like a bit of a hyperbole. Twenty a year is extreme, how come we don’t hear about most of these “mass shootings.”

From the list of fatal accidents in 2007, the most common being Motor Vehicle Traffic, the least common being Overexertion, Firearms came in sixteenth out of nineteen (19 being Overexertion) . This ought to raise some eyebrows. Now there will undoubtedly be people who are saying well just because they didn’t die, doesn’t mean that a lot of people are not injured by firearms every year. Just for you people, I have more statistics. On a list of Non-Fatal Accident Hospitalizations in 2007, the most common being A Fall, and the least common being Dog Bite, Firearms came in nineteenth out of twenty (20 being Dog Bite). So firearm accidents aren’t really that big of a concern.

So far throughout this entire essay I haven’t even touched on the second amendment of the Constitution (this is a major surprise even to me). To quote the second amendment “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.” Now many gun control advocates and some federal courts have ruled that the second amendment does not apply to individual citizens, but only to members of militias, which, they assert, are now the state National Guard units. However the definition of militia is “a body of citizens organized in a paramilitary group and typically regarding themselves as defenders of individual rights against the presumed interference of the federal government.” This is to say that they are not an organized military unit; they are people fighting against the government when said government interferes.

“The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”- Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson was in support of gun rights, he lived in a time where he knew that governments become corrupt, and knew that the very same could happen to our government, and wanted the citizens of the United States to be able to defend themselves. “To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near a half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possesses over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” James Madison, Federal Paper 46. Madison addressed the concern that a federal army might try to take over the nation.

I have one last thing to say before I leave you alone. Let’s say that I have a cake, and it says gun rights in nice green icing on top. I got it from the second amendment and Dick act of 1902. Somebody comes and says, “Give me that cake.” I proceed to say no and we compromise me giving them half of my cake. Let’s call this the National Firearms Act of 1934. So I still have half of my cake, and they come back and ask me for my cake again, I say no and we compromise again, I give them half of what I have. I am now left with a quarter of my original cake. This compromise was the Gun Control Act of 1968. So I sit with my cake, and they come back once again, and take half of what I have again, okay so this is the Machine Gun Ban of 1986. They came back and just take my cake, take several bites (Clinton Executive Orders). They now have about nine tenths of my cake. They keep eating my cake, Lautenberg Act, HUD/Smith and Wesson Agreement, Brady Law, and the School Safety and Law Enforcement Improvement Act. And what am I left with, why I have a few crumbs of my cake left. And they have the nerve to sit there and whine and complain and ask me why I’m not being “reasonable” or why can’t we just “compromise.” We are done compromising. We are done being reasonable. If we don’t act now to get our rights back or at least preserve what we still have left, they will take away even the crumbs that we have left.



Also [ Warning: This link contains obnoxious popup ads - Barry]
https://www.examiner.com/article/nra-more-popular-than-president-obama-media-silent

Barry
01-18-2013, 02:07 PM
"Written by a 14 yr old HS Freshman young lady

My daughter is a Freshman at the Barbara Ingram High School of the Arts. It is a school dedicated to teaching the arts and difficult to get into... all students must go through a tough audition process to be accepted. My daughter is a violinist....

Please people, please be transparent with your sources. This reads as though you wrote it, Twisted Minis, despite that you included quote marks. I would prefer you you introduced what you are reposting, and I require that you include the original source URL (http....) to both give credit and for us know what point of view is talking.

In this case, it appear that this was first posted here (https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=101971) "Maryland's Premiere Shooting Community" and references this https://www.myfavoritepen.com/Media/Gun%20Control%20-%20Betraying%20the%20Law%20Abiding%20Citizen.htm.

busyb555
01-18-2013, 02:31 PM
Barry.

I would think you would want to air both sides of such an important issue. We can predict what Michael Moore and Bill Airs, Van Jones et all would say, lets have a full and fair discussion my friend. The facts do not support this gun grab by the left. Its really true, if you let regular folks protect themselves the crooks, muggers, and rapists will hide in the hole the come out of. Remove any reason for them to fear and we will be over run, or I guess you could call 911 and hide under your bed. In case you missed it the country is imploding and the criminals are licking their chops. Do you actually think the criminals will turn in their guns if the "citizens" do if they are told to by your pals? I think not, all that will happen is they will be emboldened.

Lets have a test, you and your dear bride go to central Oakland or maybe Richmond and take a stroll, maybe be carrying some Nordi boxes, and for the fun of it wear a really nice overcoat. Be sure to carry a sign that says "Gun Free Zone". Be sure to post the results so the rest of us can see how cool being without a safety net works out. Point is Barry, the USA is soon to be a war zone and our only safety will come from being armed or let the criminals think we might be armed. I for one do not trust the system as much as you seem to, but unlike you I will read both sides of the arguments. I find it un cool you want me to pick only articles from your approved list of writers. How left of you.

On the Right.

Bruce



Consider your source, Bruce.

Here's WND's full Masthead (Note the arrow that I added):

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2013-01-18_1311.png


The Whistleblower is "WND's highly acclaimed monthly magazine". There's a legitimate discussion about what the best policies are regarding gun control and many other issues, but accusing Obama of being "The First Must Muslim President" is way into the lunatic realm, in that it has no relation to truth and is just intended to inflame baseless fears.

I strongly encourage you, Bruce, my friend, to unplug from such toxic dis-information. Further, I ask you to stop reposting WND's highly skewed content here. :waccosun:

podfish
01-18-2013, 02:56 PM
...Lets have a test, you and your dear bride go to central Oakland or maybe Richmond and take a stroll, maybe be carrying some Nordi boxes, and for the fun of it wear a really nice overcoat. Be sure to carry a sign that says "Gun Free Zone".nice. How would it be better to do the same stroll with our open-carry Bushmaster under our arms??<br><br>the us-vs.-the-animals worldview implied here is pretty disturbing. It's a limiting and limited view of reality, missing a whole lot.

Twisted Minis
01-18-2013, 03:32 PM
I apologize for posting an essay written by a 14 year old HS student without a link, I did not realize that was against the rules. I didn't really see the need to post a link, since it came from a high school student, with a proud father that wanted to share. I thought it was pretty clear that I did not write it, since the first sentence states it was written by a 14 year old female student. I guess it is not okay since I am in favor of the 2nd Amendment?

I do not understand the mentality behind removing my right to self defense. I am a local tax paying business owner, I shop locally and donate to local charities, I am not a criminal. And I would like to retain the right to defend myself, that right is already quite limited as it is. My father is also a business owner, and both of our businesses deal with a decent amount of cash. Which means we often transport a decent sum of cash to the bank, many people know this (it is rather common knowledge) and that puts us at risk. My business (and me personally), over the past 5 years, has been a victim of crime at least once every year in that period. I am for the most part defenseless against this. Less than a year ago I lost over $50,000 in parts, labor, and tools to theft. I had to be very persistent to get the police to even make a report of the incident, and it took over a week to get them to do so. And then nothing else happened. I know they have more pressing matters on their plate, but that hurt me a lot financially. My father has been mugged twice, right here in Sonoma County. It is likely only a matter of time before that happens to me.

I fully support taking guns out of the hands of criminals, and those flagged as incapable of safely owning one. But I do not support removing them from law abiding citizens that have done nothing wrong, ever. There are approximately 1.4 million gang members living in America today according to the FBI. That number has shot up by 40% since 2009. That is an alarming trend to me. There are things wrong in America that are likely leading the changes like this. It is more common for children to grow up without a father figure now than it ever has been, high school drop outs are at an all time high, jobs are at an all time low for young people. Not all of our violence even comes from gangs.

About 2 years ago a new low income housing unit opened, within a stones throw of my business. I noticed no immediate change in anything, but within a few months several cars had been broken into in my parking lot. Cars don't stay outside any more. Other tenants have seen increasing rates of car break ins, and gas siphoning has become almost a weekly occurrence. One truck actually had the fuel tank punctured in order to get the fuel out, since it had a locking cap. This is happening right here in Sonoma County, in a good part of town.

There are a lot of problems out there that need addressing in order to even begin reducing problems like these. Singling out one particular issue will not have much effect. We need to create more personal responsibility in our society, I feel as though I am part of an entitlement generation.

Twisted Minis
01-18-2013, 03:38 PM
nice. How would it be better to do the same stroll with our open-carry Bushmaster under our arms??

It wouldn't. You're just making yourself a target. I wouldn't prefer to open carry anything in Oakland, let alone get out of my car.

Barry
01-18-2013, 06:03 PM
Barry.

I would think you would want to air both sides of such an important issue.
I do, but not from lunatic fear mongers.

Did you see the article about the origins of the second amendment - so private militias could be formed to prevent the slaves from revolting? I think the second amendment should have been revoked once the slaves were free and all guns be outlawed. Be a real hunter and use a bow and arrow!

At the moment, no one is talking about outlawing guns, we're just talking about preventing the guns that can create mass carnage quickly. (semi-automatics and high capacity cartridges). What's wrong with that? :waccosun:

podfish
01-18-2013, 06:15 PM
...I do not understand the mentality behind removing my right to self defense. ... And I would like to retain the right to defend myself, that right is already quite limited as it is.......<br>
About 2 years ago a new low income housing unit opened, within a stones throw of my business.... several cars had been broken into in my parking lot. .most of the proposals being considered don't remove your ability to have a weapon for self defense, so it's not necessary to debate whether or not having a weapon does improve your safety. And unless you're advocating the right to shoot people over property crimes, I don't see that you've presented an argument against gun control. Even if you do assert such a right, you can probably shoot them adequately with whatever guns are permitted.<br><br>it's when this debate turns into a sociological one, that we're headed toward mad-maxland and the baddies will run amok unless they fear being shot by the few remaining good guys, that I take issue. And a lot of the fear being expressed about gun control comes down to that point of view. The arguments are against an exaggerated threat, not against any specific proposals that, judging from recent history, will be so watered-down as to achieve little.

WolfCub
01-18-2013, 06:51 PM
When you say lets ban all guns do you mean ALL guns or just from the public? Banning ALL guns is a mighty fine idea. The world would absolutely be a far less dangerous place if the military and police were disarmed as well as the people. To disarm the people and not those that have an authority over us *whether legal or not* is a far more dangerous world than the one we live in now. Governments around the world *including ours* sell weapons to people in other countries that are used to kill unimaginable numbers of innocent people, many of which are children. This should be banned.
There is a pattern with all of the mass shootings that is rarely discussed and virtually non-existent in the mainstream dialogue and that is that every single one of the shooters in these past years has been heavily medicated on psychotropic drugs. The side effects of these drugs can be very dangerous.
How can we be having such a serious debate without looking at all of the possible contributing factors? We must if positive change is what we really seek.


I do, but not from lunatic fear mongers.

Did you see the article about the origins of the second amendment - so private militias could be formed to prevent the slaves from revolting? I think the second amendment should have been revoked once the slaves were free and all guns be outlawed. Be a real hunter and use a bow and arrow!

At the moment, no one is talking about outlawing guns, we're just talking about preventing the guns that can create mass carnage quickly. (semi-automatics and high capacity cartridges). What's wrong with that? :waccosun:

sandoak
01-18-2013, 07:27 PM
I think pharmaceuticals have a stronger lobby than the NRA.


When you say lets ban all guns do you mean ALL guns or just from the public? Banning ALL guns is a mighty fine idea. The world would absolutely be a far less dangerous place if the military and police were disarmed as well as the people. To disarm the people and not those that have an authority over us *whether legal or not* is a far more dangerous world than the one we live in now. Governments around the world *including ours* sell weapons to people in other countries that are used to kill unimaginable numbers of innocent people, many of which are children. This should be banned.
There is a pattern with all of the mass shootings that is rarely discussed and virtually non-existent in the mainstream dialogue and that is that every single one of the shooters in these past years has been heavily medicated on psychotropic drugs. The side effects of these drugs can be very dangerous.
How can we be having such a serious debate without looking at all of the possible contributing factors? We must if positive change is what we really seek.

busyb555
01-18-2013, 09:54 PM
Barry.

Part of the answer is actually in a question. How will you take the guns you speak of from the criminals? Do you think they will just bring them in? If you take away the right to defend your self from the citizens you will soon have them out gunned by the bad people out there. We will all become sitting ducks. And, when the government, any government tries to take away our constitutional rights and start confiscating things, it will be time to defend that freedom they are actually after. Read history, like Patton said if you don't know history its bound to repeat itself, and if you look twice you can see it all over America. And thats the short answer my friend.

Thanks for asking.

Bruce



I do, but not from lunatic fear mongers.

Did you see the article about the origins of the second amendment - so private militias could be formed to prevent the slaves from revolting? I think the second amendment should have been revoked once the slaves were free and all guns be outlawed. Be a real hunter and use a bow and arrow!

At the moment, no one is talking about outlawing guns, we're just talking about preventing the guns that can create mass carnage quickly. (semi-automatics and high capacity cartridges). What's wrong with that? :waccosun:

Valley Oak
01-18-2013, 11:27 PM
The goal:


20243

Shandi
01-19-2013, 06:08 AM
Of all the extensive reading I've forced myself to do on this topic, my opinion is that this young woman has expressed a high degree of "critical thinking" in her research and expression of the results. I'd be a very proud mom too. I hope that as she becomes an adult, her skills will be influential in areas where this is so needed, and so lacking....

To have an artistic talent, along with intellectual skill evidenced by this essay, is a unique and wonderful combination that greatly contribute to those of us who are able to hear and receive.

Thank you "Twisted Minis" for your gift of sharing this with the Wacco community, and broadening the scope of her audience.


"Written by a 14 yr old HS Freshman young lady

My daughter is a Freshman at the Barbara Ingram High School of the Arts...

Shandi
01-19-2013, 06:53 AM
I'm thinking that "allowing" both sides of the spectrum on any controversial issue, will not be influential in changing any critical thinker's perspectives. What seems to happen is that those who are
already emotionally charged (fearful, re-active, controlling) will use irrational arguments/statements to boost their own perspective. There's always comfort in knowing that others agree with our perceptions of reality. We will try to find any figures (persons or statistics) to support our beliefs, so we can emphasize and provide support for the mentality that "we are right; they are wrong". It's not that easy to influenece someone who's not really open to substantiated information. And then there's the caveat to "consider the source".


Barry.

I would think you would want to air both sides of such an important issue. We can predict what Michael Moore and Bill Airs, Van Jones et all would say, lets have a full and fair discussion my friend. The facts do not support this gun grab by the left. Its really true, if you let regular folks protect themselves the crooks, muggers, and rapists will hide in the hole the come out of. Remove any reason for them to fear and we will be over run, or I guess you could call 911 and hide under your bed. In case you missed it the country is imploding and the criminals are licking their chops. Do you actually think the criminals will turn in their guns if the "citizens" do if they are told to by your pals? I think not, all that will happen is they will be emboldened.

Lets have a test, you and your dear bride go to central Oakland or maybe Richmond and take a stroll, maybe be carrying some Nordi boxes, and for the fun of it wear a really nice overcoat. Be sure to carry a sign that says "Gun Free Zone". Be sure to post the results so the rest of us can see how cool being without a safety net works out. Point is Barry, the USA is soon to be a war zone and our only safety will come from being armed or let the criminals think we might be armed. I for one do not trust the system as much as you seem to, but unlike you I will read both sides of the arguments. I find it un cool you want me to pick only articles from your approved list of writers. How left of you.

On the Right.

Bruce

handy
01-19-2013, 07:29 AM
Of COURSE!! Let's find a couple million muscle bound little girls to run around breaking rifles over their heads! THAT oughta do it! (/sarc)

Makes as much sense as any of the other gun control nut solutions I've seen suggested here.

Sad.


The goal:


20243


:hmmm:

busyb555
01-19-2013, 07:56 AM
Ed.

Cute picture, but it causes me to wonder how you will deal with the crooks, muggers, murderers, and lets not forget the terrorists who also have guns, lots of guns and in case you missed it, we are the enemy they target. I for one think more guns not no guns is the appropriate response in the case of America and now that I think of it, the case of the world today.

I for one want more not less guns in our society. Remember, guns don't kill people, people do.

Thanks.

Twisted Minis
01-19-2013, 09:17 AM
https://americangunfacts.com/

Twisted Minis
01-19-2013, 09:40 AM
https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323468604578245803845796068.html

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/12/20/flashback-diane-feinstein-talks-about-arming-herself-n1471404

Shandi
01-19-2013, 01:41 PM
This graphic image of a girl breaking a gun in half is unrealistic, and kinda symbolic of an unrealistic goal, which isn't even stated.

If the "goal" is to ban the manufacture, sale, and possession of assault weapons, except by those who've been given the authority, or those who don't need anyone's authority what is the result?

Hopefully those who are in favor of this, have given the "result" of a ban, some thought and extensive research, but I haven't seen it actually identifed except in vague, undefinable terms which I view as "wishful thinking".

Those who aren't in favor of a ban, seem to come up with historical statistical results from our country and others, and include actual figures when studies have been done by those who wished to prove that gun control works.

At this point, I'd just like to see someone identify what they BELIEVE the result will be. It could be as simple as "I believe that a ban will result in a substantial reduction of violent gun deaths, (except those caused by "authorized assault weapons) because......" or

"I believe that without a ban, violent gun deaths will continue to increase, because...."

Statistics aren't required for "beliefs", but it helps to be able to identify, and articulate them, so that others might become "believers" also. Isn't that part of the goal?

Who's willing to state what they believe will be the results of gun control, and why?




The goal:


20243

Shandi
01-19-2013, 01:53 PM
I don't know the answer, but I think that pharaceutical drugs have created monterous diseases and violence. The commercials that state the potential side effects are many times worse than the illness.
Class action lawsuit awards speak for themselves.


I think pharmaceuticals have a stronger lobby than the NRA.

Mamazon
01-19-2013, 05:08 PM
All this talk of needing assault rifles to combat the governement is such a joke. The US military has the most advanced weapons in the world. If they go after you, your assault weapon is not going to do much against a tank or a drone or a battalion. Violence simply breeds more violence. The corporate masters are not people my friend -- they are institutions that 'we the people' need to fight against thru local sustainable community living and sophisticated social media and brilliant court battles. We have to organize and use the democratic tools we have to smartly evolve... The tired old us-against-them paradigm has got to be composted. We all need clean water, pure air, wholesome foods and love to survive and I don't think that comes from the freedom to own a gun and shoot whatever we are afraid of... The key to revolution is evolution!

busyb555
01-19-2013, 05:52 PM
No, you miss the point of an armed society, its so the cost to others makes them think twice about trying to enslave us. If we have no way to stand up they just run us down, just like any other bully. We gotta be ABLE to stand up to them, its enough cowards. They are taking us like sneaks in the night. Killing our education system, killing the economy so we need food stamps and the other shit they give the cripples they turn society into, by rewarding lazy and those we call the entitlement people. NOT with a better more successful way, but through bulling and smoke and mirrors. I hope America wakes up before its too late.

B


All this talk of needing assault rifles to combat the governement is such a joke. The US military has the most advanced weapons in the world. If they go after you, your assault weapon is not going to do much against a tank or a drone or a battalion. Violence simply breeds more violence. The corporate masters are not people my friend -- they are institutions that 'we the people' need to fight against thru local sustainable community living and sophisticated social media and brilliant court battles. We have to organize and use the democratic tools we have to smartly evolve... The tired old us-against-them paradigm has got to be composted. We all need clean water, pure air, wholesome foods and love to survive and I don't think that comes from the freedom to own a gun and shoot whatever we are afraid of... The key to revolution is evolution!

podfish
01-19-2013, 08:43 PM
No, you miss the point of an armed society, its so the cost to others makes them think twice about trying to enslave us.
this goes straight to the heart of the problem - and shows why I don't think we're going to see much restriction on gun ownership.

if this seems to be an outlandish and unjustified fear to you, you don't much worry about gummint taking your guns, so you're receptive to regulation. Restrictions just don't seem to be that big a deal, and a few limits on "gun rights" seem equivalent to limits on OHV [Off-Highway Vehicle] recreation in public lands - annoying to those who like the activity, but ultimately not a big deal for most.

If you think you're in imminent danger of enslavement, however, the stakes are huge. Any limits put you on a slippery slope to Obamaland where you're told that you can't buy large sodas and have to pay for health care for third-world babies whose parents have snuck into our country, while the parents sit around and collect welfare.

Personally, I think we have a problem where people are too willing to limit the rights of OHV users since they don't participate in the sport themselves. But if people killed schoolkids with dirtbikes, or offed themselves with quads when they were depressed, or backed their rock-crawler over their wives when they were pissed off and drunk, I'd be more receptive to regulation of them. Unfortunately for those of us who don't buy into what I consider a paranoid fantasy of a threatening government and scary gangsters roaming our neighborhoods, there's a huge number of people who think suicides, random killings, and crimes of passion that turn deadly are just the unfortunate but inevitable price to pay. It's not that they don't care about those things (though they tend to think they're strictly attributable to the failings of an individual than to "society"), they're just so scared of the REAL potential threats that we can't limit guns without absolute, incontrovertible evidence that all bad things will be completely stopped by any legal restriction.

so, I think the bottom line is we're screwed. Limiting guns would clearly limit gun violence; I don't think the evidence that gun-violence is unchanged by regulation is particularly convincing. But in the end, that's not the question that gun-ownership advocates want answered. They want to know how to keep the gummint from enslaving them, and the thugs from raping their puppies, and unless you can show them that they're really and truly safe from such an outcome, they damn well need their guns!

sharingwisdom
01-19-2013, 09:23 PM
I'd like to suggest the possibility of refraining from critical name calling. Sharing with others, whether we agree or not, helps us to understand others perspectives and to allow for the free flow of information. If we name call, things become disrespectful, polarized, and the emotion is the topic not the subject at hand. We are all different in what we believe to be true, and let's leave space to agree to disagree respectfully.

Back to the original topic... here is a rebuttal to 2nd amendment being ratified to preserve slavery from Dr. Ray Kessler who is a professor of criminal justice at Sul Ross State University. https://crimelawandjustice.blogspot.com/

"David Kopel’s 1998 article (https://lawreview.byu.edu/archives/1998/4/kop.pdf) (https://lawreview.byu.edu/archives/1998/4/kop.pdf) “The Second Amendment in the Nineteenth Century,” in 1998 B.Y.U. L. Rev. 1359 is an excellent rebuttal to Carl Bogus’ theory that the Second Amendment was ratified to protect slavery. The article is a long and thorough historical review. The material on Bogus’ theory starts at p. 1515 (fn. 647).

Bogus’ piece (https://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Bogus2.htm) (https://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Bogus2.htm) is at 31 U.C. Davis Law Review 309 (1998). It turns a relatively obscure, constitutionally incorrect, and unimportant point in the debate into the centerpiece of the amendment.


I do, but not from lunatic fear mongers.

Did you see the article about the origins of the second amendment - so private militias could be formed to prevent the slaves from revolting? I think the second amendment should have been revoked once the slaves were free and all guns be outlawed. Be a real hunter and use a bow and arrow!

At the moment, no one is talking about outlawing guns, we're just talking about preventing the guns that can create mass carnage quickly. (semi-automatics and high capacity cartridges). What's wrong with that? :waccosun:

theindependenteye
01-19-2013, 09:32 PM
>>>No, you miss the point of an armed society, its so the cost to others makes them think twice about trying to enslave us. If we have no way to stand up they just run us down, just like any other bully. We gotta be ABLE to stand up to them, its enough cowards. They are taking us like sneaks in the night. Killing our education system, killing the economy so we need food stamps and the other shit they give the cripples they turn society into, by rewarding lazy and those we call the entitlement people. NOT with a better more successful way, but through bulling and smoke and mirrors. I hope America wakes up before its too late.


So if I'm to take this note seriously, there's a man in Sonoma County stocking up assault weapons, perhaps in league with a private militia, to pursue armed rebellion against whichever governmental or economic forces he regards as "trying to enslave us." I guess it's that unquenchable desire to carry forth the august traditions of the Whiskey Rebellion, the Confederacy, the KKK, and the Symbionese Liberation Army.

I might be in total agreement with the writer about exactly which policies are taking us "like sneaks in the night," or I might not (given that I'm probably one of those "entitlement people" for whose benefit the writer is being enslaved.) I might even feel a twinge of guilty satisfaction (counterproductive though it'd be) if someone tossed a stink bomb into the local CVS. But this flap-jawed paean to terrorist squads -- and any fool can see that's the only option being proposed here -- is as naive as it is despicable.

On the other hand, if he's not actually stocking up and practicing every weekend, he's just putting us on.

Peace & joy--
Conrad

busyb555
01-19-2013, 09:49 PM
My gosh, what part of "doesn't add up" don't you get. The data in the Carter study and in each and every place guns are in hand of citizens violence goes down and safety goes up. Check out Israel where everybody gets gun training and most have the. Compare that to the UK and lets not forget Obamas Chicago where there are more deaths than Afghanistan with places that guns are in the hands many.

Guns make the criminals have to face fear so they find the soft spots like the gun free zones. I can tell you that we just do not agree on most things. I hope you and your pals wake up before its too late for this fine country.

Bruce



this goes straight to the heart of the problem - and shows why I don't think we're going to see much restriction on gun ownership.

if this seems to be an outlandish and unjustified fear to you, you don't much worry about gummint taking your guns, so you're receptive to regulation. Restrictions just don't seem to be that big a deal, and a few limits on "gun rights" seem equivalent to limits on OHV recreation in public lands - annoying to those who like the activity, but ultimately not a big deal for most.

If you think you're in imminent danger of enslavement, however, the stakes are huge. Any limits put you on a slippery slope to Obamaland where you're told that you can't buy large sodas and have to pay for health care for third-world babies whose parents have snuck into our country, while the parents sit around and collect welfare.

Personally, I think we have a problem where people are too willing to limit the rights of OHV users since they don't participate in the sport themselves. But if people killed schoolkids with dirtbikes, or offed themselves with quads when they were depressed, or backed their rock-crawler over their wives when they were pissed off and drunk, I'd be more receptive to regulation of them. Unfortunately for those of us who don't buy into what I consider a paranoid fantasy of a threatening government and scary gangsters roaming our neighborhoods, there's a huge number of people who think suicides, random killings, and crimes of passion that turn deadly are just the unfortunate but inevitable price to pay. It's not that they don't care about those things (though they tend to think they're strictly attributable to the failings of an individual than to "society"), they're just so scared of the REAL potential threats that we can't limit guns without absolute, incontrovertible evidence that all bad things will be completely stopped by any legal restriction.

so, I think the bottom line is we're screwed. Limiting guns would clearly limit gun violence; I don't think the evidence that gun-violence is unchanged by regulation is particularly convincing. But in the end, that's not the question that gun-ownership advocates want answered. They want to know how to keep the gummint from enslaving them, and the thugs from raping their puppies, and unless you can show them that they're really and truly safe from such an outcome, they damn well need their guns!

Orm Embar
01-21-2013, 09:06 AM
The data in the Carter study and in each and every place guns are in hand of citizens violence goes down and safety goes up. Check out Israel where everybody gets gun training and most have the. Compare that to the UK and lets not forget Obamas Chicago where there are more deaths than Afghanistan with places that guns are in the hands many.
Bruce

I wish I could believe this argument, but taking gun ownership statistics from other countries and extrapolating results to apply to the United States does not play out in reality. One has to take into account each country's social norms about how conflict is handled. Even within a country there are different neighborhoods where one could cherry-pick statistics to back a particular point one wishes to make. For example - I'm sure you could find gun ownership statistics from a rural farming community that match statistics from a neighborhood in Oakland. Both would have a high percentage of gun ownership and I am guessing that those two communities would have very different reports about the violent used of guns against people. I'm sorry I don't have the time to actually get those statistics for you all, but I hope my point comes across.

The conversation about gun ownership touches on so many different aspects within our communities. I don't find it very useful to try to come to agreement on all of it in one big swath of a statement. Gun ownership for hunting, personal safety, community safety, a joyful hobby for target practice, a farm tool, a "safety blanket" for those who feel safer with a gun in the house, etc. are all different conversations in my mind. I could not address them all by saying we should or should not own/ban guns of any sort. Trying to continue a discussion in that vein sure feels like spinning our wheels on ice. It might feel thrilling but we aren't getting anywhere.

Can this conversation tease out some thread to be worked upon? Maybe we could agree to talk about something a little less charged than personal safety or government police state situations .. . . . would a gun as a farm tool be easier to start with?

Hotspring 44
07-14-2016, 02:54 PM
I agree with that (bringing a gun to a confrontation) in general for the non-law enforcement peoples, but, however with some reasonable exceptions that I won't get into here....
...https://www.elyrics.net/read/j/johnny-cash-lyrics/don_t-take-your-guns-to-town-lyrics.html


My sense is that by bringing a gun to a confrontation you are actually increasing the likelihood that you will be shot. Non-violently capitulating to whatever the demand an the moment is probably the safest thing to do, if unpleasant at the moment and its aftermath. But at least you are still alive.

Hotspring 44
07-14-2016, 04:10 PM
I am not so sure that the "they" (the inferred as to being {the} 'liberal' elected officials, 'law enforcement personnel, etc. ET; All)... ...What about the ones who are not 'liberal' elected officials" by definition but are everything other than that "liberal" thing?

Anyway I think the 'they' fear being unelected by the masses who 'elected' them into office in the first place. Weather the "they" are 'liberal' or not does not seem to make any difference, (IMHO), because it is the ideia that the other side (so-called) is armed.


......They hate the public.