Farmer's Market at The Barlow [Archive] - Page 2

lizzysweet

11-22-2012, 10:51 PM

Thank you so much for this, Larkin!!!

I can actually take your words whole-heartedly into real consideration. While I still maintain that my posts are not remotely hostile or malicious (as some have been able to pick up on and are now finally starting to defend- thank you!!!), I am definitely hearing the objections to my style. And as you so eloquently point out, style is very different than tone, although the two are often mistakenly used synonymously. Unfortunately, "style/tone" seems to be what's taking precedence over substance here, by those feeling offended by my "negative vitriol of hostile venom," a.k.a opposing view... and that is the most frustrating thing for me! Even the well-educated amongst us, those who, say, hold a masters degree in social work, struggle with the ability to separate emotion from reason, misidentify a clinical demonstration of well-executed research of facts as personal harassment. The Jeffersonian Art of Witticism (the classic Battle of Wits!) seems to be lost! People like yourself and Podfish reassure me that I am not alone in this metaphysically driven Wacco community we call Sebastopol.

The challenge is further compounded by a moderator who chimes in with opinionated declarations- "The one very-wrong answer is to have another market at The Barlow on Sundays." How can one trust that their POV will be respectfully and equally defended as legitimate, particular when you are a rare voice (and being a rare voice does NOT inherently mean I'm alone!!) in a choir of devotees which clearly includes the moderator himself. To be an effective moderator, adjudicator, mediator... one must take the selfless oath of removing oneself from the emotional opinionated fray- create and adhere to distance in order to maintain bilateral, or even multilateral, perspective.

(Barry, I respect that you and MAJ, a.k.a. "oliviathunderkitty," are both proponents of Ms. Downing, but PLEASE, both of you, just recognize and admit that it impedes your ability to be an effective moderator in this very small community! I'm not saying your a bad moderator, I'm just saying that your allegiance is transparent and you can't help but be affected by it- after all your only human! But it does tip the scale of neutrality!)

Look, it's because I can be so clinical about this that I'm only amused by my opponents reactions. It's because I'm aware that substance supersedes style, that I take no genuine offense. It's because (Michelle) hearsay does not beget fact (THAT one you should KNOW), that I will not surrender my voice!

Again, thank you Larkin.... and please, bring more of you and your kin to the discussion!

(While I feel the impulse to exclaim "Oh Snap!".... I shall refrain :meditate:)

Happy Thanksgiving!

One of the things I have observed (and personally experienced) is that on-line forums provide a tricky and challenging form of communication.

Reading words on a screen does not give participants the benefit of body language, facial features or tone of voice. I have often mis-interpreted someone's tone and had my intentions completely mis-interpreted while participating in such forums. I have also given and received offense because of typing too quickly and neglecting to read my own posts "through the eyes of a stranger before posting." I now take extra care when writing. I even use words that I normally don't use while speaking because I find that one simple word choice can make the difference between feeling heard and feeling attacked. (I'm not even sure if that last sentence conveys what I intend to convey, but I've edited it 3 times and am not sure how else to write it. . . .see, this form of communication is tricky)

While I have yet to read a post in this thread that I feel is truly a "troll" in attack mode (sorry I'm using "forum-speak"), I do see that certain styles of writing are coming across as inflammatory. It does not appear that this is intentionally so, just a style of expression. My concern is that we are starting to veer away from the original intent of the thread. Maybe it's time to split threads so we can keep the original discussion moving forward?

I invite all of us take a moment to step back and be extra careful of writing comments while experiencing heated emotions. Each and every one of us has something valuable to share. It would be nice to have that sharing be clear, understood, and appreciated. I will start with the assumption that each person on this thread is an amazing person with incredible personal integrity.

A Very Happy Thanksgiving to You All!
-Larkin

Barry

11-22-2012, 11:42 PM

Gaussian Process Belief Propagation? :ew:

Precisely! :waccosun:

I was just trying to reserve a post in the Thanksgiving day digest before the digest cutoff of 6pm and then edit in some more of my opinionated opinions before the digest got sent out. "Missed it by that much! (https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=oPwrodxghrw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DoPwrodxghrw)"

More tomorrow. Be nice to each other!

bret martin

11-23-2012, 12:29 AM

bret martin here from the barlow. i thought i could handle this but sadness has shut me down. i refuse to put anyone down any longer. today at thanksgiving i was overwhelmed with remorse over my rationalized justified negativity towards another fellow earthling. i refuse to try to justify my actions by putting down another human. im done here and if people have questions may they be answered by our successes only. blessings to all of you ..especially paula. i will announce our plans at that barlow without excuses or hurtful words no matter how my reality sees the situation. please trust that the barlow will do what is right for all the right reasons. if you have a compelling story of loss or pain around the market give it to the universe and lets all love each other
happy thanks giving
bret

rossmen

11-23-2012, 12:46 AM

i still don't get it. this letter reflects paula having more communication willingness than the writer! i bet the board ignored it. and the difference between brets interpretation of the lawsuit settlement and a far clearer description is astounding! running a farmers market seems to be far harder than i imagined. i don't know paula though i have met sprout crusher dan. are you his minion?

Let me help you, Bret!

May 21, 2009
Santa Rosa Board of Directors
Dear Santa Rosa Board of Directors

It is unfortunate that I have to write this letter, but I believe it is necessary for the Board as well as the association to know this. On Wednesday, May 20, 2009 about 8:00 a.m., I was approached by the market manager, Paula Downing, in a very unprofessional and inappropriate manner.

My family has farmed...for almost 25 years. We have been member of the Santa Rosa Farmer's Market for 20 years. We sold our produce at over 20 different farmers' markets throughout the years, and never have we encountered such hostility.

As I was setting up, Paula asked me if I wanted to talk about what was going on with me. I had no idea what she was referring to. I answered, "no." Paula then told me that she had been "sensing" some negative feelings from me and that she wanted me to tell her what my problem was. Not knowing what she was alluding to, I said I had nothing to say to her.

Paula proceeded to tell me that she had lots of problems and that she did not need any more. She stated that if she wanted to, she could "kick me out of Sebastopol Farmers' Market" and that she never had to let me in. She repeated that if I was going to cause more problems, she would just kick me out.

I asked her if she was threatening me. She answered, "yes."

Believing that I had in some way misunderstood her, I asked her again, "are you threatening me?" Again, she said "yes" and repeated that she never had to let me into the Sebastopol Market, and could have me "out" if she wanted.

I was shocked and appalled that at 8:00 a.m.- the beginning of a business day at the market- at my place of work, Paula was threatening me to have me kicked out of another market because she was "sensing" some negative feelings from me.

I asked her again if she was threatening me. Again she answered yes. I let Paula know that she had misinterpreted my "feelings" because I had no idea what she was referring to, as I had neither said nor done anything to her. Paula replied, "okay" and left my table.

I was very upset that a manager would threaten me at my place of work. I left my booth to make a phone call and walked to the restroom. As I exited the restroom I found myself face to face with Paula, who again told me, "we need to talk." I told her repeatedly that I was on the phone and did not wish to speak to her.

She then confronted me in the parking lot and said she was sorry if she misunderstood my feelings but we needed to talk. I told her I did not wish to speak to her and I asked her to please leave me alone. Paula said we needed to talk and asked me if I "did not believe in forgiveness."

I told Paula again to please leave me alone, and that I did not want to speak to her. I informed her that I believed she had acted in a very inappropriate and unprofessional way and that she had upset me and I did not want to speak to her until I had collected my thoughts. She finally left, but not before telling me that she would later call me so that we could talk.

My immediate thought was to just let this incident pass, however, after consulting with family (we're a family business), I realized that the market manager's behavior was without a doubt uncalled for, inappropriate, and a clear threat to our small business.

Though the actual threat to kick us out of the Sebastopol Market has nothing to do with the Santa Rosa Association, (I will address the matter with the Sebastopol Farmers' Market Board of Directors); the threat was made at the Santa Rosa Farmers' Market, by its manager, during business hours.

I am not willing to accept Paula's behavior and the threat she made for no just cause.

As a member of the association, and as a vendor, I expect the board of directors to respond promptly. The market manager is a representative of the association. i would like a guarantee that this type of unprofessional behavior will not be tolerated, nor repeated. More importantly, I would like some assurance that Paula will not carry out her threat.

Regards,

(I leave this anonymous to protect the innocent, however, this letter IS a matter of public record... I can offer more if you like. It only gets worse.)

lizzysweet

11-23-2012, 02:18 AM

Oh Dear God, NO!! I am HARDLY the sprout-crusher's minion!! LOL! Seriously, not even a little bit.

I don't fault you for not getting it at first glance... so let me help...

The Santa Rosa Original Farmers Market (SROFM) is a completely separate, unrelated entity from the Sebastopol Farmers Market (SFM). SROCFM has a truly elected BOD, elected by its membership which is comprised of its vendors (which vendors get to become members, when, and how, an who among them actually get to vote, is a whole other ball of yarn!). SFM appears to have the same set up; a BOD comprised of elected vendors/members. Unfortunately, even the SFM BOD themselves don't even realize that they've been duped.

The actual governing organization of SFM is the Sonoma County Farmers Market Association (SCFMA), founded by Paula after she was hired by the original SFM BOD to be their employee. Paula is the President of this organization.... in essence, she figured out a way to become her boss' boss (and they don't even know it!) What we see as the vendor-driven SFM BOD is in actuality a mere puppet organization, a "committee" really; smoke and mirrors, if you will. The SCFMA's BOD is comprised of three people; Paula, Hilda, Erica- all three Market managers who were initially hired by the farmers who wanted them to manage their market as their employees!!!

The big problem with this is (as the Sonoma Valley Farmer's Market (SVFM) discovered about 2 years ago), the employer is now powerless against its employee. Example- when SVFM became unhappy with Hilda and went to terminate her employment, Paula and Hilda marched in and terminated the BOD (much to their surprise), because legally they could (Paula is a former paralegal who worked for George Altenberg....who, if you ever get legal threats from her, like the SROCFM did in 2010, he will always be the one representing her).

The exact same dynamic exists in Sebastopol, however, very few people are aware of it- those who are aware of it are both scared to speak out about it (below you will see why) but also realize the necessity for eternal vigilance because their businesses and livelihoods hang in the balance. So, that is probably the reason why I appear to be a minion of the sprout-crusher- there are very few of us who know the real story- but again, no relation except familiarity with the same information!

Back to the letter... Paula IS strictly the employee (or rather WAS... she has since "retired") of SROCFM. She has always been thought to be the employee of the SFM; a totally seperate, independent, unrelated entity. There is "0" relationship between the two (like there is "0" relationship between the Oakland Farmers Market and the Healdsburg Farmers Market), except, of course, that Paula was independently hired as an employee by both organizations (like most people right now, working two part-time jobs to make ends meet).

SO.... for Paula to threaten to kick a vendor out of either market is inappropriate, first off, because she claims that she works under the oversight of a BOD for each market! It's further inappropriate to use her authority at one market as leverage to exert her authority at another- because the two are mutually exclusive!!!!!! BUT SHE DOES IT, she HAS DONE IT, she CONTINUES TO DO IT, and WILL CONTINUE TO DO IT, against anyone she feels "negative feelings about," BECAUSE SHE KNOWS SHE CAN... AND SO DO THE SCARED AND SILENT VENDORS!!!!

Imagine you are a vendor in both Santa Rosa and Sebastopol. Say you have an issue, a totally legitimate issue, with Paula in Santa Rosa, and you want to bring it to the attention of the BOD? You will never be right, lest you loose your place in Sebastopol! So guess what.... if you want to maintain access to the direct marketplace in this county (Sonoma Farmers Market, Petaluma Farmers Market, Oakmont Farmers Market, Sebastopol Farmers Market- all the markets controlled by SCFMA, of which Paula is the President and the 3 managers are the board), you learn to NEVER have an issue with Paula in Santa Rosa!!

When the very legitimate SROCFM BOD wanted to legitimately terminate Paula's employment in 2010, the two members of that board who also sold in Sebastopol (one of them being the author of this letter) were suddenly "up for review of their membership" in Sebastopol. They had not committed any infraction in Sebastopol. They had not broken any rules. But suddenly, they were in jeopardy of loosing their access to the marketplace, even though they had been vendors, without incident, FOR YEARS!

The subject of the letter is not one person's ability to communicate over another's, but rather, the inappropriate stronghold Ms. Downing possesses over every single vendor's ability to have access to the marketplace and conduct business.

Now imagine Paula overplays her hand when negotiating her rental agreement with the county (and this is a WHOLE OTHER STORY I will not get into, yet- but "oliviathunderkitty" does NOT KNOW THE FACTS!). She looses her lease. She has to find a new place to go. (I'm sorry, the "SROCFM BOD" looses the lease and has to find a new place to go.) You're a vendor who receives a newsletter from your market manager/BOD saying that you have to choose; stay where you are under a new organization, or move to the new location- but YOU CAN NOT DO BOTH! There is a brand new "7-mile radius restriction" to be implemented as part of the move. (And it is precisely 7 miles, "oliviathunderkitty"- distance between the Santa Rosa Veteran's Building and Wells Fargo Center for the Arts: 6.11 mi.!) And now let's say you also enjoy selling in Sebastopol! Which one do you think you're going to choose? Hmmmmm?!

Ladies and gentlemen, I now present to you "Vendors at the Vet's Bldg" a.k.a. "Former Board Members Already Kicked Out of Sebastopol" a.k.a "Never Allowed The Opportunity to Sell In The first place for Lord Knows What Reason" a.k.a."Suffered The Tyranny Too Long And Happy To Be Rid Of It"..... aaaand "Vendor's at Wells Fargo/Sebastopol" a.k.a. "TEAM PAULA," a.k.a. "Not Really Team Paula But Can't Do Anything About It Because Can't Financially Afford To Not Be In Both The Sat. And Sun. Markets" in this corner! Again, the subject of the letter is not "communication," it's "Blackmail and Racketeering."

Make sense now?

i still don't get it. this letter reflects paula having more communication willingness than the writer! i bet the board ignored it. and the difference between brets interpretation of the lawsuit settlement and a far clearer description is astounding! running a farmers market seems to be far harder than i imagined. i don't know paula though i have met sprout crusher dan. are you his minion?

lizzysweet

11-23-2012, 04:48 AM

I'm sorry, but one more thing, Ross... "the difference between brets interpretation of the lawsuit settlement and a far clearer description" is only astounding because (and I implore to just at least consider this) "oliviathunderkitty's" description, while seemingly clearer, has only a fraction of the information. A larger fraction than most (that I can grant), but a fraction none the less. Take into consideration a very common fact that settlements are just that...settlements. There are never any "findings" in a settlement. "Findings of no wrong doing" are only found in judgments. Parties settle, either because they don't want to, or can't afford to, take a case all the way to trial...where judgements are found! Her "clearer description" about rent and RFP's "triggered at $50,000" are SO FALSE it hurts to read. The flailing attempts to set "misinformation" right in post #100 are embarrassing because indeed all of this IS A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD, John!

Look, go ahead and stop listening to me, just so long as you stop listening to everything else in this thread- just do your own real honest to god research! (Just like you did when you wanted to get into Bees!) Get your hands on original documents, read them, alone- not inspired by anyone else, read them in chronological order... THEN, AND ONLY THEN, will you have a "FAR CLEARER DESCRIPTION."

i still don't get it. this letter reflects paula having more communication willingness than the writer! i bet the board ignored it. and the difference between brets interpretation of the lawsuit settlement and a far clearer description is astounding! running a farmers market seems to be far harder than i imagined. i don't know paula though i have met sprout crusher dan. are you his minion?

lizzysweet

11-23-2012, 05:22 AM

Oh Bret.... YOU are a man of VIRTUE! Be grateful that somewhere along the line, someone (probably your family) did right by you by instilling intellect and reason, courage and strength, empathy and heart. I look forward to the day I can meet you in person. I don't believe for a moment that you have been shut down by sadness. I choose to believe that you have simply found resolve because you know the right thing to do. This has been an exhaustive.... and honestly.... although it may not seem like it to anyone else.... a very necessary and productive thread. You knew what needed to be done and you did it, with the courage of your convictions; professionally, personally, socially, and ethically. You have been an inspiration, and I Thank You! Although I truly don't expect anyone here to believe me (the mere thought of it tickles me ;), my agenda has never been to hurt Paula or anyone else. Rather, it's been to be a voice for so many who have not been able to speak... who still can not speak. It's been to implore that ALL of our producer and vendors be done right by; not just some, not just the ones we "like" or who we think "likes us," but everyone! And that is where good policy comes.... that is where YOU come in. I know, from this thread alone, that you are not only a good man, but that you will do the right thing; ergo, the Barlow WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! Sebastopol should be very grateful to have YOU! (I am ;)

And no, ladies and gentlemen, I am not Bret's minion either! Believe it or not, I am actually my very own person! :wink:

Happy Thanksgiving, Paula! I still do not want you to have anything to do with any markets any more. I do want the Barlow to create a knock-out awesome Sunday market. BUT, I do not, nor have I ever, wished you ill will. Actually, I wish just the opposite- that you take time to enjoy family, especially the grandchildren, pursue your passions at a leisurely pace, and enjoy a full retirement. You have done a great job in so many respects, but now- you can let go. There are so many other important things you have to tend to at this time in your life. Let your legacy be a bright and shining one. Let Bret, the Barlow, the farmers, the community- let us take it from here. It's OK.

Alright, everyone. Thank you.... it's been grand! :wavatcha:
(and next Thanksgiving... I'll remember to not drink 3 cups of caffeinated coffee with desert!)

bret martin here from the barlow. i thought i could handle this but sadness has shut me down. i refuse to put anyone down any longer. today at thanksgiving i was overwhelmed with remorse over my rationalized justified negativity towards another fellow earthling. i refuse to try to justify my actions by putting down another human. im done here and if people have questions may they be answered by our successes only. blessings to all of you ..especially paula. i will announce our plans at that barlow without excuses or hurtful words no matter how my reality sees the situation. please trust that the barlow will do what is right for all the right reasons. if you have a compelling story of loss or pain around the market give it to the universe and lets all love each other
happy thanks giving
bret

Cinda

11-23-2012, 09:27 AM

I'd like to contribute a bit of accuracy here. Paula Downing did not decide to open a new market at a new location. In February of 2012, the county rented the space out from under the existing farmers market to a new entity while they were in rent negotiations with the existing market. The county offered it to the new entity at a price lower than they were asked the existing market to pay. Had they asked the full amount, it would have triggered a RFP (request for proposal), which is triggered at $50,000.

The original market, founded in 1967, had two options: Disband or find a new location. The new location was chosen by a committee appointed by the board of directors.

Further, the rule that vendors could not sell at simultaneous markets within something like a 10-mile radius was adopted by the members of the market, not by Paula Downing.

All of this is a matter of public record.

As far as mutual restraining orders go, there is a great deal of misinformation circulating. There is no restraining order. Two individuals agreed not to attend the Santa Rosa Original Certified Farmers Market as customers for a period of five years. This was requested by the market board because vendors and customers had been harassed by these individuals. The individuals then requested that the board members of the original market make the same agreement, that they would not attend the new market as customers for a period of five years. They agreed. This is now in effect. Any vendor, to my knowledge, is free to attend either market, upon acceptance of their application by that market.

The lawsuit was settled with a finding of no wrong doing by anyone connected to the Santa Rosa Original Farmers Market or the Sebastopol farmers market or the two individuals who initiated the law suit.

Paula Downing announced her intention to resign as manager of the Santa Rosa Market in either late 2011 or early 2012. She stayed to help facilitate the move and train the new manager, Jaime Smedes, who is now at the helm, working at the direction of the board.

I need to correct a vital piece of misinformation here. I was present during part of the discussion with the County regarding rental of the Veterans Building. First; the County did NOT offer a new entity a lower price than they were asking from the existing market. That truly is a matter of public record. Second; the County did not rent the space out from under the existing market. Another matter of public record. Paula Downing told the County that her market could not, and would not, pay the going rate - period. End of negotiations. It's disingenous to blame the County for seeking the going rate in a challenging economy. It's also inappropriate to blame REFM for paying the going rate, in order to preserve the most desirable location for existing vendors and customers.

Many SRFM vendors believed the greatest strain in the budget was Paula Downing's generous salary, not the rent.

Cinda

11-23-2012, 09:48 AM

I need to correct a vital piece of misinformation here. I was present during part of the discussion with the County regarding rental of the Veterans Building. First; the County did NOT offer a new entity a lower price than they were asking from the existing market. That truly is a matter of public record. Second; the County did not rent the space out from under the existing market. Another matter of public record. Paula Downing told the County that her market could not, and would not, pay the going rate - period. End of negotiations. It's disingenous to blame the County for seeking the going rate in a challenging economy. It's also inappropriate to blame REFM for paying the going rate, in order to preserve the most desirable location for existing vendors and customers.

Many SRFM vendors believed the greatest strain in the budget was Paula Downing's generous salary, not the rent.

I need address one additional point. Olivia's statement that "the lawsuit was settled with a finding of no wrong doing" speaks volumes. There was NO FINDING whatsoever, as this lawsuit was settled before going to court. If the premise is flawed, the conclusion is flawed - therefore, we cannot conclude that there was no wrong-doing. What we do know, is that the Santa Rosa Original Certified Farmers Markets at THE WELLS FARGO center, paid a total of $30,000 to settle this lawsuit before it went to court. The lawyers in my family tell me that's a big flag. Suits without merit are often settled for a much smaller percentage. A $30,000 settlement implies a serious desire to avoid a legitimate finding/adjudication.

I need to make it clear that I am not one of the principals in this suit, nor was I connected with it in any way. I've just verified the facts for myself all along the way.

oliviathunderkitty

11-23-2012, 09:52 AM

I'm sorry but this is not accurate. If the county had rented the space to another entity for the price they were asking the existing market to pay--somewhere between $53,000 and $56,000- they would have been legally required to open it up for bids, as anything over $50,000 triggers as RFP (request for proposals.) process. To settle this and other issues being questioned here, it would be helpful for someone to either get the documents from the county or speak with those board members who were involved in the on-going negotiations.

One thing is correct: The county did not OFFER the new entity the space. The new entity requested it and their request was granted while the county was still involved with negotiations with the existing market. And the existing market never told the county they would not pay the full amount--they had requested a decrease in that amount, had submitted paper work and were waiting for further negotiations and a ruling.

I need to correct a vital piece of misinformation here. I was present during part of the discussion with the County regarding rental of the Veterans Building. First; the County did NOT offer a new entity a lower price than they were asking from the existing market. That truly is a matter of public record. Second; the County did not rent the space out from under the existing market. Another matter of public record. Paula Downing told the County that her market could not, and would not, pay the going rate - period. End of negotiations. It's disingenous to blame the County for seeking the going rate in a challenging economy. It's also inappropriate to blame REFM for paying the going rate, in order to preserve the most desirable location for existing vendors and customers.

Many SRFM vendors believed the greatest strain in the budget was Paula Downing's generous salary, not the rent.

Adrianna

11-23-2012, 10:30 AM

I haven't read all postings, but felt the need to weigh in to support Bret. No doubt he & Barney have received numerous confidential emails (and hard evidence) from former SRFM vendors who have been threatened such as myself. As an ethical person, he's in the untenable position of knowing truths about which he can't speak.

I would like to make my documents public to break this pattern, but threats can be very effective when you need to feed your family. I've also seen that minds have been made up; facts be damned. Anyhow, living well is the best revenge. Happy holidays to all.:heart:

Cinda

11-23-2012, 10:48 AM

I'm sorry but this is not accurate. If the county had rented the space to another entity for the price they were asking the existing market to pay--somewhere between $53,000 and $56,000- they would have been legally required to open it up for bids, as anything over $50,000 triggers as RFP (request for proposals.) process. To settle this and other issues being questioned here, it would be helpful for someone to either get the documents from the county or speak with those board members who were involved in the on-going negotiations.

One thing is correct: The county did not OFFER the new entity the space. The new entity requested it and their request was granted while the county was still involved with negotiations with the existing market. And the existing market never told the county they would not pay the full amount--they had requested a decrease in that amount, had submitted paper work and were waiting for further negotiations and a ruling.

Sorry Kitty, I know the facts. Speaking to the SRFM Board members is how to get the spin - not the facts... unless you want to speak with the ones who resigned in protest. I've seen the letter from the County requesting AUDITED financials from the SRFM. The County was doing their due diligence - Paula was claiming poverty and they were trying to verify her claim. The SRFM couldn't substantiate her claim, so they tossed some numbers at the County, rather than AUDITED financials. You can't flim-flam the County, or their attorney's. I would be happy to facilitate publishing the request from the County - and the full response from the SRFM. Are you really up for full public disclosure?

LloydR

11-23-2012, 12:43 PM

AppleFan,
You have been around the Sebastopol Community for quite some time and done some wonderful things, including saving the Gravenstein Apple and work with Slow Foods. These things have given you publicity that become public record. Just over a year ago the North Bay Business Journal on August 22, 2011 (https://www.northbaybusinessjournal.com/38534/marin-clinics-to-buy-building-for-1-million/) did a lovely write up on you when you were hired by Palm Drive Hospital to develop and direct a case management program to ensure systematic follow-up for patients with chronic illnesses and other long-term needs. In this article they cited your noteworthy credentials like your undergraduate degree from UC Berkley and Masters in Social Work from Univeristy of Sothern California.

I honestly can't see how stating where you went to school is harassment. Those are both very repitable schools and most, including myself, look at them as significant accomplishments!:):

now I am feeling really harassed and you are underlining your hostility with this one. how the hell do you know where I went to school and how dare you use it against me! Barry, I would appreciate some help here. I have been, in my opinion, a fair minded contributor here.

Barry

11-23-2012, 02:29 PM

There's lots of distinct but related topics going on in this thread. I may eventually split it, but not just yet.

I want to comment on two points:

- Moderation
- The Farmers Market at the Barlow.

Regarding moderation, there was some harsh talk here before I posted my comments on Wednesday (#80) that I decided to let go, and I was hoping the discussion would proceed respectfully.

Lizzysweet, then continued to post in a tone/style that I (and many of you) find too aggressive (#86), regardless of her point of view:

"like the grownups who chose to stay at the Vet's."
"FREE THE CAPTIVES FROM WELLS FARGO!!!!"

I wrote to her privately "Elizabeth, you are pushing the limits of decorum with your past and current posts. Please tone it down a bit."

She has continued to post in a similar vein, including public protests of my private note to her and insinuating posts directed at applefan :

"And for a UC Berkeley/USC graduate, if you don't know what my agenda is, I can't help you."
"Even the well-educated amongst us, those who, say, hold a masters degree in social work, struggle with the ability to separate emotion from reason, misidentify a clinical demonstration of well-executed research of facts as personal harassment."

People are not just disagreeing, they are getting offended. I'm sorry, but I can't tolerate that.
https://i.imgur.com/dn2Sg.gif
Lizzysweet signaled that she has left the conversation "it's been grand! :wavatcha:." I'm hoping the temperature level of this thread will settle down now and we can resume our tryptophan-induced mellow. To be fair, she has also contributed worthy informative posts.

Moving on to the farmer's market at The Barlow: First let be clear that my comment:

"The one very-wrong answer is to have another market at The Barlow on Sundays" was just my personal opinion.

Again, I really think Paula and any of her past actions should be put aside, and frankly I think it would be helpful if Paula completed her training of Jaime Smedes, and let Jamie and the SFM BOD work it out from here. If they want to move to The Barlow and Bret will have them, great! If they want to embrace the idea of 2 simultaneous markets at the plaza and at The Barlow, sure lets give it a try in the environment of mutual support and cooperation. :waccosun:

However if neither of those options are chosen, for The Barlow to proceed with holding a farmer's market on Sunday's in direct competition with the plaza market, against the wishes of their (Paula-less) BOD still seems far from optimal and could easily create bad feelings just when The Barlow is just trying to get established.

True, I hadn't considered whether there are enough vendors to participate at a Saturday market at The Barlow. I can't really speak to that. But surely that problem is exacerbated by having a second market in Sebastopol on Sunday.

I don't see how a competitive market on Sunday's at The Barlow will benefit the community or The Barlow vs The Barlow hosting a market on another day which which will increase the opportunities to buy produce directly from the farmers without losing anything.

Cinda

11-23-2012, 03:21 PM

There's lots of distinct but related topics going on in this thread. I may eventually split it, but not just yet.

I want to comment on two points:

- Moderation
- The Farmers Market at the Barlow.

Regarding moderation, there was some harsh talk here before I posted my comments on Wednesday (#80) that I decided to let go, and I was hoping the discussion would proceed respectfully.

Lizzysweet, then continued to post in a tone/style that I (and many of you) find too aggressive (#86), regardless of her point of view:

"like the grownups who chose to stay at the Vet's."
"FREE THE CAPTIVES FROM WELLS FARGO!!!!"

I wrote to her privately "Elizabeth, you are pushing the limits of decorum with your past and current posts. Please tone it down a bit."

She has continued to post in a similar vein, including public protests of my private note to her and insinuating posts directed at applefan :
"And for a UC Berkeley/USC graduate, if you don't know what my agenda is, I can't help you."
"Even the well-educated amongst us, those who, say, hold a masters degree in social work, struggle with the ability to separate emotion from reason, misidentify a clinical demonstration of well-executed research of facts as personal harassment."

People are not just disagreeing, they are getting offended. I'm sorry, but I can't tolerate that.
https://i.imgur.com/dn2Sg.gif
Lizzysweet signaled that she has left the conversation "it's been grand! :wavatcha:." I'm hoping the temperature level of this thread will settle down now and we can resume our tryptophan-induced mellow. To be fair, she has also contributed worthy informative posts.

Moving on to the farmer's market at The Barlow: First let be clear that my comment:

"The one very-wrong answer is to have another market at The Barlow on Sundays" was just my personal opinion.

Again, I really think Paula and any of her past actions should be put aside, and frankly I think it would be helpful if Paula completed her training of Jaime Smedes, and let Jamie and the SFM BOD work it out from here. If they want to move to The Barlow and Bret will have them, great! If they want to embrace the idea of 2 simultaneous markets at the plaza and at The Barlow, sure lets give it a try in the environment of mutual support and cooperation. :waccosun:

However if neither of those options are chosen, for The Barlow to proceed with holding a farmer's market on Sunday's in direct competition with the plaza market, against the wishes of their (Paula-less) BOD still seems far from optimal and could easily create bad feelings just when The Barlow is just trying to get established.

True, I hadn't considered whether there are enough vendors to participate at a Saturday market at The Barlow. I can't really speak to that. But surely that problem is exacerbated by having a second market in Sebastopol on Sunday.

I don't see how a competitive market on Sunday's at The Barlow will benefit the community or The Barlow vs The Barlow hosting a market on another day which which will increase the opportunities to buy produce directly from the farmers without losing anything.

I appreciate you clarifying your opinion. I'd like to add that the Barlow could overflow with local produce, meat, fish & artisan vendors on Sunday, should they make that choice. I personally know dozens who would jump at the chance whether Paula remains or not. A lot of people want to start with a clean slate.

Gratongirl

11-24-2012, 04:48 AM

Hello Lizzy:

I would imagine that one of the reasons that this forum exists is because the moderator created it because he likes to engage in dialogue and community. As someone who disagrees sometimes with Barry, I can assure you that he doesn't let his opinion affect what gets posted here - and his suggestion here seems like a good and appropriate comment.

Don't think anyone controls what one thinks after they read any post...

Some posts are allowed even when untruthful or incorrect and it is up to the forum participants to take care of correcting that...right?

Barry does not abuse his role to influence the discussion IMO - but, you may note that your opposing view and opinion was posted and remains...

 
Thank you so much for this, Larkin!!!

The challenge is further compounded by a moderator who chimes in with opinionated declarations- "The one very-wrong answer is to have another market at The Barlow on Sundays." How can one trust that their POV will be respectfully and equally defended as legitimate, particular when you are a rare voice (and being a rare voice does NOT inherently mean I'm alone!!) in a choir of devotees which clearly includes the moderator himself. To be an effective moderator, adjudicator, mediator... one must take the selfless oath of removing oneself from the emotional opinionated fray- create and adhere to distance in order to maintain bilateral, or even multilateral, perspective.

(Barry, I respect that you and MAJ, a.k.a. "oliviathunderkitty," are both proponents of Ms. Downing, but PLEASE, both of you, just recognize and admit that it impedes your ability to be an effective moderator in this very small community! I'm not saying your a bad moderator, I'm just saying that your allegiance is transparent and you can't help but be affected by it- after all your only human! But it does tip the scale of neutrality!)

Look, it's because I can be so clinical about this that I'm only amused by my opponents reactions. It's because I'm aware that substance supersedes style, that I take no genuine offense. It's because (Michelle) hearsay does not beget fact (THAT one you should KNOW), that I will not surrender my voice!

Again, thank you Larkin.... and please, bring more of you and your kin to the discussion!

(While I feel the impulse to exclaim "Oh Snap!".... I shall refrain :meditate:)

Happy Thanksgiving!

treasure

11-24-2012, 07:58 AM

Good question.

Gaussian Process Belief Propagation? :ew:

The Barlow

12-06-2012, 11:03 AM

An update on the market at the Barlow from Sonoma West:

https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/changes-in-farmers-market-on-tap-at-the-barlow/article_46ceefce-3f36-11e2-b35f-001a4bcf887a.html (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/news/changes-in-farmers-market-on-tap-at-the-barlow/article_46ceefce-3f36-11e2-b35f-001a4bcf887a.html)

Barry

12-06-2012, 04:51 PM

Here' the article from the Sonoma-West that The Barlow linked to. It provides a good summary of the ongoing Farmer's Markets controversies

https://i.imgur.com/yv1Iu.png (https://www.sonomawest.com/sonoma_west_times_and_news/)
Changes in farmers market on tap at the Barlow

Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 3:49 pm
by David Abbott Sonoma West Editor [email protected]

Developers look for new market management

After a brief flurry of activity over a proposed farmers market at the Sebastopol Veteran’s Hall — the new site of the Sebastopol Center for the Arts — another conversation is at hand, as the developers of the Barlow have announced they will seek an alternative to the plan to have Paula Downing manage a proposed farmers market at their location.

Downing was expecting to begin a year-round market at the Barlow sometime this fall.

“We have to keep our minds open to the best possibilities,” Bret Martin said, adding that the decision was made due to past legal issues Downing has faced regarding the markets in Santa Rosa and Sebastopol, and the Barlow will be seeking a “fresh start.”

Both the Sebastopol and Santa Rosa Original Certified Farmers markets were at the center of a lawsuit brought forth by Gleason Ranch (in Bodega) owners Nancy Prebilich and Cindy Holland, which began in 2011 and was settled in September.

Gleason was terminated from Downing’s markets and the suit cited retaliation by the market manager over criticisms of the management.

The settlement included payments by Downing and the Sonoma County Farmers Market Association and the parties also agreed to stay away from each other for five years.

Additionally, the Original Farmers Market had its lease terminated at the Santa Rosa Veterans Hall over a rent dispute and has relocated to the parking lot of the Wells Fargo Center for the Arts (and the future site of Sutter Hospital).

The Santa Rosa Veterans Hall is now the site of the Redwood Empire Farmers Market, which earlier this year had a tentative agreement with the Sebastopol Center for the Arts at its new location at the Sebastopol Veterans Hall.

At the time, Dan Smith was involved with the REFM, but that deal fell through shortly after it was announced. Smith, who operates an independent market in the parking lot of his French Garden Restaurant, has since focused his energies developing electronic medical records technology, but still wants to sell the produce he grows in Sebastopol.

“I hope that whatever happens, that the market will be open to all local farmers,” said Smith, who was also denied a space at the Sebastopol market. “This would be good for the market as well as the farmers.”
Martin, whose family sold the 6.5-acre site of the former apple processing plant to developer Barney Aldridge, said that although he has had limited talks with Smith, he feels as if his development will go in a different direction.

But he still thinks there can be a solution that allows everyone to work together for a common purpose.
“It may take awhile for the ebb and flow, but we have a vision of a more united community,” he said.

Both Martin and Aldridge — who is a fan of Downing’s — see an expanded market as a magnet to bring people to Sebastopol. And while the Barlow will not seek Downing’s services, both men believe that everyone will be able to co-exist peacefully, with expanded opportunities for local farmers and producers.

They also want to adopt a structure that would preclude too much power residing in the hands of either the market manager, or the market board, such as the model adopted by the Davis Farmers Market Association, which includes a grievance process and a Board of Governance.

But Downing is concerned that the glut of local markets will reduce the profit margins of her sellers by as much as 20 percent.

So the Original Farmers Market is in the process of reaching out to Martin and Aldridge to find out what the possibilities might be.

“The Market remains optimistic that we can remain our home town farmers market and that we and the Barlow can find a way to work toward the higher goal that we both share — the creation of a strong, local food system that unites, rather than divides, our community,” Downing wrote in an e-mail. “One way to work together would be for the Barlow and the Market to collaborate with Cittaslow and other interested community organizations to create meaningful agriculture related special events that highlight the small entrepreneurial producers at the Barlow and the Market and throughout the community, events that are designed to bring people from all over the Bay Area to visit and enjoy Sonoma County’s glorious year-round harvest.”

REFM eventually wants to find a way to create larger markets in Sebastopol as well.

“REFM is excited to collaborate with the Barlow however we can so as to heighten the profile of Sonoma County farmers markets at large and to help our local producers grow strong and thrive,” wrote Jim Neufeld, president of REFM board, in an e-mail.

Prebilich, too would like to sell her products locally as well and hopes the Barlow can fulfill its vision.
“As a resident of Sebastopol, I appreciate their inclusive approach, opening the door to all local vendors and food purveyors,” she said. “I am excited to see the Barlow reach its full potential.”

Barry

12-07-2012, 12:16 PM

Both the Sebastopol and Santa Rosa Original Certified Farmers markets were at the center of a lawsuit brought forth by Gleason Ranch (in Bodega) owners Nancy Prebilich and Cindy Holland, which began in 2011 and was settled in September.

Gleason was terminated from Downing’s markets and the suit cited retaliation by the market manager over criticisms of the management.

I want to point out that wacco user "lizzysweet" who commented rather aggressively earlier in this thread, and who provided a "real name" with her registration of Elizabeth Sevito, was in fact Nancy Prebilich referenced above, and is involved with the lawsuit.

I'm not privy to the details of the lawsuit, but not only did I take issue with her tone here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?93827-Farmer-s-Market-at-The-Barlow&p=159877#post159877), she also refused to take responsibility for her comments by using a false name. In my mind that impunes her character and rest of her accusations.

The other wacco user who stridently spoke out against Paula, "Cinda" who supplied a real name of Cinda Pennington is actually Brenda Chatelaine from Smoked Olive Oil Company. Brenda also refused to take responsibility for her posts.

Adrianna

12-07-2012, 12:31 PM

Sorry to disappoint, but Cinda is not Brenda Chatelaine of The Smoked Olive.

gardenmaniac

12-07-2012, 01:01 PM

Sorry to disappoint, but Cinda is not Brenda Chatelaine of The Smoked Olive.

hmm ... might Cinda be Cindy Holland, co-owner at Gleason Ranch?

bret martin

12-07-2012, 01:27 PM

I want to point out that wacco user "lizzysweet" who commented rather aggressively earlier in this thread, and who provided a "real name" with her registration of Elizabeth Sevito, was in fact Nancy Prebilich referenced above, and is involved with a lawsuit.

I'm not privy to the details of the lawsuit, but not only did I take issue with her tone here, she also refused to take responsibility for her comments by using a false name. In my mind that impunes her character and rest of her accusations.

The other wacco user who stridently spoke out against Paula, "Cinda" who supplied a real name of Cinda Pennington is actually Brenda Chatelaine from Smoked Olive Oil Company. Brenda also refused to take responsibility for her posts.

barry
i am shocked at your revelation. i participate
on internet sites like youtube and have never seen a moderator divulge an identity and see this as a frightening betrayal. im assuming this must be the first time a poster has given a fake name. because if in the history of waccobb you had ever witnessed an alias identity posting here then you would have reveiled their identities as well. otherwise you have changed
from unbiased moderator
to a punisher of those whose opinions you dont like. when topics are sensitive people
are often scared to speak openly for fear of being attacked or threatened in their personal life.
your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
frankly as moderator the only threat posters should fear is that of losing access to your forum.you strike me as a sraight shooter..well..up to this point anyway..ask yourself if it was integrity and morality that inspired you or are you trying to punish?
im so sad you would do this to anyone..
sincerely
bret

Barry

12-07-2012, 01:29 PM

In addition to my trusted source that informed me, I see that "Cinda" registered with the same email address as has been published elsewhere as belonging to The Smoked Olive.

In addition, "Adrianna", I see that you are using the same computer as "Cinda". : pinocchio:

Sorry to disappoint, but Cinda is not Brenda Chatelaine of The Smoked Olive.

Ernieman

12-07-2012, 02:14 PM

As Dwight D. Eisenhower once said "I question your wisdom, not your motive." Please enough of the who dun'it stuff as it is not helpful, enlightening or interesting. Carry on your fight privately but publically I care about what happens at Barlow and in Sebastopol, my home town. Not about personalities. About shape, size, form and (I don't do) color.

Barry

12-07-2012, 02:39 PM

barry
i am shocked at your revelation. i participate
on internet sites like youtube and have never seen a moderator divulge an identity and see this as a frightening betrayal.
WacccoBB.net is a far cry from YouTube.:waccosun:This forum is for "Conscious Community". Truth, Respect and Authenticity are part of our core values. (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?13970-What-is-quot-Conscious-quot)

im assuming this must be the first time a poster has given a fake name. because if in the history of waccobb you had ever witnessed an alias identity posting here then you would have reveiled their identities as well. otherwise you have changed
from unbiased moderator
to a punisher of those whose opinions you dont like.
I generally don't investigate whether someone has supplied their real name as required by our guidelines that all members agree to (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?886-Posting-Guidelines), until I notice them attacking or otherwise being disrespectful to others. That has happened several times in the past and I have outed them as either creating a sockpuppet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)) or using a false name and I have supplied real names when I can.

when topics are sensitive people
are often scared to speak openly for fear of being attacked or threatened in their personal life.
However they have no concern about attacking others...

your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
It is precisely because I demand people take personal responsibility for their posts that WaccoBB is generally a respectful and safe place. It's when people invoke the veil of anonymity, and are no longer accountable for what they say, that "safety security and integrity" is lost.

Integrity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity) demands that people are honest and take responsibility for their statements in a public forum.

i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
frankly as moderator the only threat posters should fear is that of losing access to your forum.
Your presumption is not correct, Bret. Sorry. I hold people responsible for what they post.

I am willing to work with people who wish to reveal something "unflattering" about themselves, but not if they are being "offensive".

"you strike me as a sraight shooter..well..up to this point anyway..ask yourself if it was integrity and morality that inspired you or are you trying to punish?
im so sad you would do this to anyone..
I only identified the person "speaking". The extent to which that is "punishment" is determined by what the person said.

podfish

12-07-2012, 03:51 PM

.. your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post. just because they say that on the internet, no-one can tell you're a dog, it doesn't mean it's true. Anonymity on the internet is hard to achieve. There are many ways that identity can be revealed. I far prefer having it made explicit, like Barry does, that you need to register using your real identity. He also makes the registrations public. I suspect his main objective was to control trolling, but it does no-one any favors to let them think they can successfully hide. It may be embarrassing to be caught out expressing opinions, but if you find yourself posting things that you are that worried about having tracked back to you, those things are best not posted at all.Your digital fingerprints are far more visible than most people seem to think. 
This isn't to make you paranoid - most people have learned to behave in public differently than they might in private. The mistake is to think anything on the internet is truly private.

bret martin

12-07-2012, 04:06 PM

barry
ok perhaps i misunderstood your site here. to be clear we all need to know that no matter what we choose to call ourselves you at your disrection will reveal our identities as you see fit if we dont play nice.
ok understood
btw have you taken any side in this issue?
if you have i hope it didnt sway your choice.

i dont want to choose any side but i am in pain because of your choice.
i received phone calls after i posted on wacco ..half the calls were
for and half against a particular market manager.
i told them all to post on wacco. one lady told me she couldnt.post because she had her life threatened after a dispute with said manager. i said to her that she could perhaps post her complaints under an alias so she wouldnt feel as though she was risking her safety.
imagine she took my advice and somehow in your quest for us owning our comments she gets swept into this and she.wasnt even the one breaking your honor code..now if she gets threatened again or worse at this point have you participated unintentionally in harming her?
i have asked the barlow to discontinue all communications via this medium.
i think you should just get rid of aliases altogether rather than giving the illusion of anonymity. you.are right that we will all then be accountable but.like in china few will dare to.speak out against issues if they are speaking out against someone or.something others deem sacred
i hope your revelation does not land anyone in the hospital or the courthouse
sadly
bret

Barry

12-07-2012, 05:35 PM

barry
ok perhaps i misunderstood your site here. to be clear we all need to know that no matter what we choose to call ourselves you at your disrection will reveal our identities as you see fit if we dont play nice.
ok understood
To be clear, all users are required to supply their real names at registration and this information is made public.

btw have you taken any side in this issue?
if you have i hope it didnt sway your choice.

I don't know the details of what's happened so I can't really say. In addition to my comments earlier in this thread (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?93827-Farmer-s-Market-at-The-Barlow&p=159802#post159802), as well my suggestion that a new market at The Barlow not be at the same time as the existing market unless that is done cooperatively, I'll add I am struck by not only the lack of transparency but also the harsh tone of lizzysweet/Nancy Prebilich's posts.

Just as you suggest removal from this forum is the ultimate "punishment", it would seem that would apply to a vendor at a farmers market that doesn't play nice. So I think it would be within the market manager's prerogative to exclude such a vendor. Whether or not it was warranted is a another story.

i dont want to choose any side but i am in pain because of your choice.
i received phone calls after i posted on wacco ..half the calls were
for and half against a particular market manager.
i told them all to post on wacco. one lady told me she couldnt.post because she had her life threatened after a dispute with said manager. i said to her that she could perhaps post her complaints under an alias so she wouldnt feel as though she was risking her safety.
imagine she took my advice and somehow in your quest for us owning our comments she gets swept into this and she.wasnt even the one breaking your honor code..now if she gets threatened again or worse at this point have you participated unintentionally in harming her?
They shouldn't say anything that they are not willing to have their name associated with. The registration process requires their real name for their profile.

There have been cases when people accuse/repost others of mis-deeds on WaccoBB and they use their real names. Since their report is true and their intent is not malicious nor self-interested, they are willing to be fully responsible for their communications. There is no telling what's true and what's not. The only check to be applied to provide "safety" is for people to be responsible for their communication.

To turn the tables on you, what if some anonymous/fake user posted damning things (true or not) about you or The Barlow??

WaccoBB.net is my attempt of holding a responsible and respectful public forum. It's not your typical online forum. My key tool is holding people responsible for what they post. I think that serves us all. There are plenty of internet sites, including the PD, where user comments are anonymous and libelous. At some point I'll make that distinction yet more apparent to protect the guilty :wink:.

i have asked the barlow to discontinue all communications via this medium.
I hope you'l reconsider that. I have appreciated your posts, even if I haven't agreed with all of them. And I think we can be a very effective outreach to the community for you. I like to think you have used this service because users use it with integrity and respect. I'm just working to preserve that.

i think you should just get rid of aliases altogether rather than giving the illusion of anonymity. you.are right that we will all then be accountable but.like in china few will dare to.speak out against issues if they are speaking out against someone or.something others deem sacred
i hope your revelation does not land anyone in the hospital or the courthouse
sadly
bretPoint taken, but plenty of people still speak out, and their comments carry more weight because they stand behind them.

Barry

12-07-2012, 05:41 PM

At some point I'll make that distinction [real names are required] yet more apparent to protect the guilty :wink:.

Notice added! Registration screen updated:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/keep90days/2012-12-07_1739.png

rossmen

12-08-2012, 12:50 AM

the barlow/bret have clearly taken sides in the farmer market turf wars of sonoma county. i read that this is not the barlow's desire, but the decision made not to invite the existing sebastopol market to move to the barlow, as promised, is a clear choice. we can discuss marketing strategies, management style, litigation and farmer support forever. and if you want to be on wacco.bb, don't mess with barry!

bret i understand this thread as the barlow looking for feedback and suggestions about a farmers market at the barlow. you have not commented on my suggestion and there has been lots of negative feedback on the idea of a barlow market at the same time on sunday. your reasons why this idea makes sense to you have been met with thoughtful dispute. your allies (cohorts, not minions of the sprout crusher), are clear about their agenda. its your choice how much you want to be on their side. take another look at my suggestion, i think it is pretty cool. and it buys time to wait, why others battle.

i dont want to choose any side but i am in pain because of your choice.

bret martin

12-08-2012, 01:22 AM

the barlow/bret have clearly taken sides in the farmer market turf wars of sonoma county. i read that this is not the barlow's desire, but the decision made not to invite the existing sebastopol market to move to the barlow, as promised, is a clear choice. we can discuss marketing strategies, management style, litigation and farmer support forever. and if you want to be on wacco.bb, don't mess with barry!

bret i understand this thread as the barlow looking for feedback and suggestions about a farmers market at the barlow. you have not commented on my suggestion and there has been lots of negative feedback on the idea of a barlow market at the same time on sunday. your reasons why this idea makes sense to you have been met with thoughtful dispute. your allies (cohorts, not minions of the sprout crusher), are clear about their agenda. its your choice how much you want to be on their side. take another look at my shiuhiggestion, i think it is pretty cool. and it buys time to wait, why others battle.

hi
i admit i dont know what a sprout crusher is but we are moving forward without any management from either side. call me if you want to walk the site
bret

bret martin

12-08-2012, 01:41 AM

barry
im not going to recommend anything to the barlow about posting here. i was upset when i posted that. to answer your question about how i would feel if anonymous voices criticized me? i have a
youtube channel where i reach out to peaceful muslims all over the world with a few million views. i get death threats and anonymous people post that they hope my child who has battled cancer would die. i get insulted personally daily by cowards hiding behind aliases. i love them all and reach out to them often changing their hearts . yes i understand.
if i ran your waccobb and i found an angry lizzy person and knew her real identity and wanted to stop her being mean i would have warned her early on that if she didnt behave that i would reveal her identity. at that point she would have proceeded at her own risk. more likely she would have posted differently. to wait until after the storm of dialogue and then revealing her identity didnt stop the problem and now appears to be merely a punishment. a surprise unexpected punishment.
i expect fair dialogue but i also believe that you could have handled this with mutual dignity and compassion.
your choice to wait until now has left me wondering why.
i hope that those inclined to take sides could stop and see our shared humanity and suffering
peace and love to you barry

To be clear, all users are required to supply their real names at registration and this information is made public.

I don't know the details of what's happened so I can't really say. In addition to my comments earlier in this thread (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?93827-Farmer-s-Market-at-The-Barlow&p=159802#post159802), as well my suggestion that a new market at The Barlow not be at the same time as the existing market unless that is done cooperatively, I'll add I am struck by not only the lack of transparency but also the harsh tone of lizzysweet/Nancy Prebilich's posts.

Just as you suggest removal from this forum is the ultimate "punishment", it would seem that would apply to a vendor at a farmers market that doesn't play nice. So I think it would be within the market manager's prerogative to exclude such a vendor. Whether or not it was warranted is a another story.

They shouldn't say anything that they are not willing to have their name associated with. The registration process requires their real name for their profile.

There have been cases when people accuse/repost others of mis-deeds on WaccoBB and they use their real names. Since their report is true and their intent is not malicious nor self-interested, they are willing to be fully responsible for their communications. There is no telling what's true and what's not. The only check to be applied to provide "safety" is for people to be responsible for their communication.

To turn the tables on you, what if some anonymous/fake user posted damning things (true or not) about you or The Barlow??

WaccoBB.net is my attempt of holding a responsible and respectful public forum. It's not your typical online forum. My key tool is holding people responsible for what they post. I think that serves us all. There are plenty of internet sites, including the PD, where user comments are anonymous and libelous. At some point I'll make that distinction yet more apparent to protect the guilty :wink:.

I hope you'l reconsider that. I have appreciated your posts, even if I haven't agreed with all of them. And I think we can be a very effective outreach to the community for you. I like to think you have used this service because users use it with integrity and respect. I'm just working to preserve that.

Point taken, but plenty of people still speak out, and their comments carry more weight because they stand behind them.

fafner

12-08-2012, 09:46 AM

Barry has made clear that the identification of all participants in WACCO are indentified as to their real name. A couple of clicks and 'Bingo'. I don't know why some just cannot admit that is a fact and let it go. I see all this as like a political Party not admitting there was an election. What went on between the unhappy vendors and the management? For all I know they did not fit with how the Market was imagined. Maybe they were not the kind of people congenial with the vision of the Market. From their posts I think not.

I know that the Market on Sunday at the Plaza is the most pleasant time I have spent in Sonoma County in over 30 years. People are pleasant and friendly. The vendors are plentiful and pleasant and helpful. The whole atmosphere is calming to my soul, and I leave with love in my heart for all I meet the next week. Someone has made that so. Who is that person?? It is my impression the market manager MIGHT have had something to do with it.

I was offended when I read that Bret Martin had said that the Sunday Market on the Plaza was not welcome at the Barlow. I have not seen anyone refute that statement. Is it true that Bret Martin made that statement?? If so, that seems to me to be the end of the matter. Why beat the dead horse? If the Sunday Market is not welcome at the Barlow, I don't think I will be welcome either. I grew up in a time and place that had signs, saying: "Negroes are not welcome here". That did not mean, "Let's discuss this for 3 months". It meant Negroes were not welcome. Period. No discussion. I am not black, but I took offense at that statement then and I take offense at that statement now.

tezor

12-08-2012, 10:53 AM

Sorry Ernie, but I feel this is quite appropriate. As this is a privately moderated public forum, I support the outing of those less than honest. The internet allows many to speak without the fear of being called on their views. I believe you can say what you want, but you are responsible for your statements. As I have a big mouth, I've often had to eat my words when proved wrong, and rightly so. Hiding behind a false name negates your statement because you don't have any investment in the truth as you see it. I believe you can do what you want, but are 100% responsible for your actions. Advice I offered to my son at an early age. To offer anything else is political; possibly, but not necessarily honest. Getting to the bottom of who dun it, will lead to the light of truth, the state of the present economy is a classic example. While I support the Oyster Farm, I see both sides, and haven't gotten to a conclusion. These kind of tactics tip the scales without a clear understanding of the presented perspective. It's important to know your source. Repeat a lie often enough, and those that aren't willing to do the work of research will believe it. Elections seem to thrive on this as you well know. I don't question Barry's wisdom, nor his dedication to the task of holding peoples feet to the fire of truth. I APPLAUD it! Best wishes to all in keeping with the season. Bob Rozett

tezor

12-08-2012, 10:57 AM

Sorry Bret, speak and own your truth, I believe others have been called on the duplicity of using false names, and I expect if YOU speak it, YOU should own it. Bob Rozett

barry
i am shocked at your revelation. i participate
on internet sites like youtube and have never seen a moderator divulge an identity and see this as a frightening betrayal. im assuming this must be the first time a poster has given a fake name. because if in the history of waccobb you had ever witnessed an alias identity posting here then you would have reveiled their identities as well. otherwise you have changed
from unbiased moderator
to a punisher of those whose opinions you dont like. when topics are sensitive people
are often scared to speak openly for fear of being attacked or threatened in their personal life.
your channel has just lost safety security and integrity in my eyes.
i love the constitution and bill of rights and i assumed you protected our identities no matter how unflattering or offensive the post.
frankly as moderator the only threat posters should fear is that of losing access to your forum.you strike me as a sraight shooter..well..up to this point anyway..ask yourself if it was integrity and morality that inspired you or are you trying to punish?
im so sad you would do this to anyone..
sincerely
bret

bret martin

12-08-2012, 11:37 AM

honesty? were the ladies outed for not being honest? not telling the truth? posting under an alias? being rude?
A magical combination of which only a moderator is fit to pass judgment ?
The truth is battered daily on this site,thats why i came here in the first place, to defend my truth against what i see as untruths. like about how im this new investor who doesnt want to support all the farmers. My Dad went to Analy and I sold the barlow to Barney and stayed in as a partner.
just saying
bret

Sorry Ernie, but I feel this is quite appropriate. As this is a privately moderated public forum, I support the outing of those less than honest.

The internet allows many to speak without the fear of being called on their views. I believe you can say what you want, but you are responsible for your statements. As I have a big mouth, I've often had to eat my words when proved wrong, and rightly so. Hiding behind a false name negates your statement because you don't have any investment in the truth as you see it. I believe you can do what you want, but are 100% responsible for your actions. Advice I offered to my son at an early age. To offer anything else is political; possibly, but not necessarily honest. Getting to the bottom of who dun it, will lead to the light of truth, the state of the present economy is a classic example. While I support the Oyster Farm, I see both sides, and haven't gotten to a conclusion. These kind of tactics tip the scales without a clear understanding of the presented perspective. It's important to know your source. Repeat a lie often enough, and those that aren't willing to do the work of research will believe it. Elections seem to thrive on this as you well know. I don't question Barry's wisdom, nor his dedication to the task of holding peoples feet to the fire of truth. I APPLAUD it! Best wishes to all in keeping with the season. Bob Rozett

bret martin

12-08-2012, 11:54 AM

hi
Dont be wrongly offended..the Sunday market has been totally welcome all along at the Barlow.
All they would have had to do is present themselves in such a way that we could allow them in without denying access to the disenfranchised farmers currently not allowed to participate in Sebastopol.That could have even included Paula if they could have mended fences and opened themselves to inclusiveness.

I was offended when I read that Bret Martin had said that the Sunday Market on the Plaza was not welcome at the Barlow.I have not seen anyone refute that statement. Is it true that Bret Martin made that statement?? If so, that seems to me to be the end of the matter. Why beat the dead horse? If the Sunday Market is not welcome at the Barlow, I don't think I will be welcome either. I grew up in a time and place that had signs, saying: "Negroes are not welcome here". That did not mean, "Let's discuss this for 3 months". It meant Negroes were not welcome. Period. No discussion. I am not black, but I took offense at that statement then and I take offense at that statement now

btw..I have adopted chidren who are black and one from Ethiopia. I think the hint of comparison to "Jim Crow" laws with a farmers market manager who is merely reaping the fruits of her body of work is ..well...quite a stretch.
African Americans were victims of pre-judice. My decision here has no pre-..Its a fair judgment based on my reserach
and why don't you think the Barlow would welcome you? have you committed some crime that prevents you from being in public places? I'm confused
bret
:)

tezor

12-08-2012, 12:22 PM

Bret, I believe they were outed for not being honest about who they are. False names and multiple entries from one source, claiming to be several, is not transparent. It's a slippery slope to allow someone who fears to expose themselves to rebuke, to post under an alias "real" name. I don't know enough details other than Barry's statement, but having been called on my statements in the past by him, I trust his judgement. If I'm wrong, I'd like a little mustard to eat with my words. For now, I stand by my comments, if you have a problem with that so be it. At the least you know who I am, and where I stand. In peace, Bob Rozett

bret martin

12-08-2012, 12:54 PM

thanks Bob , I feel you.But when do you think it was that Barry made the discovery that they were using aliases? And do you think there are others using aliases here? If not aliases I know many who use "puppets" for lack of a better word.When Paula handed out letters to her vendors telling them to speak out against the Barlow and allowed the vendors to operate under a flawed understanding about why they were not coming to the Barlow,did she create dishonest puppets who reached out to me ? They were misinformed and doing the bidding of another in my opinion.
You know I've tried multiple times calling Paula and leaving messages and she, to this date has never returned any of my calls from day one.We did meet once but I often feel that she is communicating with me through proxies here? Am I just paranoid or should i do some identity searches here and google the real names of the posters here in a search along with paula downing and see ...oh gosh..there i go again..save some mustard for me Bob..:)
bret

Bret, I believe they were outed for not being honest about who they are, false names and multiple entries for one source claiming to be several, is not transparent. It's a slippery slope to allow someone who fears to expose themselves to rebuke to post. I don't know enough details other than Barry's statement, but having been called on my statements in the past by him, I trust his judgement. If I'm wrong, I'd like a little mustard to eat with my words, but for now, I stand by my comments, if you have a problem with that so be it, but at the least you know who I am and where I stand. In peace, Bob Rozett

tezor

12-08-2012, 01:05 PM

Bret, my response has nothing to do with the market, just the generalities of this board. I haven't followed this thread and know little about it. Sorry that life sounds troubling but we make our choices, and it flows from there, often out of our control. I mean no disrespect, but I'm not involved in this particular issue, and have no position. Best of luck, Bob

treasure

12-08-2012, 01:38 PM

Hi, Bret. Thank you for all of your posts, which have helped clarify the dispute and your and Barney's position.

From the start, I have wanted the Sebastopol Farmers Market to remain in its current location. Though I sometimes enjoy large places with lots of activity, as the Barlow will be, most of the time I much prefer small and simple, which I see as beautiful.

Should the original market stay where it is, I'll make it my "Home" market, and may occasionally visit the Barlow.

I greatly appreciate Barry's insistence on transparency and civility on this site.

Warm regards,
Tara Treasurefield

honesty? were the ladies outed for not being honest? not telling the truth? posting under an alias? being rude?
A magical combination of which only a moderator is fit to pass judgment ?
The truth is battered daily on this site,thats why i came here in the first place, to defend my truth against what i see as untruths. like about how im this new investor who doesnt want to support all the farmers. My Dad went to Analy and I sold the barlow to Barney and stayed in as a partner.
just saying
bret

theindependenteye

12-08-2012, 04:51 PM

In response to the original question from way back when:

As regular customers at the Sunday market on the square, Elizabeth and I would be very sad to see its presence or its vitality diminished.

The idea of a collaboration in a same-day schedule seems, given the history described here, very unlikely. If the Barlow schedules a Sunday market, it appears inevitably that it'll be a direct competition. Would it were otherwise, but that seems to be the probability.

My expertise is in theatre, not in retail marketing, but it would appear to be very bad public relations for the Barlow to schedule competitively (whatever the justification) and incite an inevitable community row — which, given this "conscious" but highly pugilistic community, would be inevitable.

Personally, we'd find it wonderful to stop into a Saturday or weekday-evening market at the Barlow and to see how that evolves. I understand that there are all sorts of issues about vendors, other markets, etc., but since our opinions were graciously solicited, that's them.

Cheers—
Conrad Bishop & Elizabeth Fuller

Barry

12-08-2012, 05:59 PM

if i ran your waccobb and i found an angry lizzy person and knew her real identity and wanted to stop her being mean i would have warned her early on that if she didnt behave that i would reveal her identity. at that point she would have proceeded at her own risk. more likely she would have posted differently. to wait until after the storm of dialogue and then revealing her identity didnt stop the problem and now appears to be merely a punishment. a surprise unexpected punishment.
i expect fair dialogue but i also believe that you could have handled this with mutual dignity and compassion.
your choice to wait until now has left me wondering why.

I found out that lizzysweet was actually Nancy Prebilich on November 25th, well after she had stopped posting.
Before I knew of her true identity I reached out to her privately to request she tone it down and I was rebuffed publicly by her and she continued in the same vein.

I am not aware of other participants in this thread who are not using their real name, other than Brenda Chatelaine who posted as both Cinda and Adrianna (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?93827-Farmer-s-Market-at-The-Barlow&p=160304#post160304). [Edit: Sorry, there is one person who has a valid concern (in my estimation) who withdrew their name from their profile (but has not taken a false one). They have not posted anything attacking nor disrespectful and I know who they are. They will return their name to their profile soon.]
.

When Paula handed out letters to her vendors telling them to speak out against the Barlow and allowed the vendors to operate under a flawed understanding about why they were not coming to the Barlow,did she create dishonest puppets who reached out to me ? They were misinformed and doing the bidding of another in my opinion.

Whether people are operating under "flawed understanding" and posting about it from their real name is a separate manner. Who of us has perfect understanding? :wink:

You know I've tried multiple times calling Paula and leaving messages and she, to this date has never returned any of my calls from day one.We did meet once but I often feel that she is communicating with me through proxies here? Am I just paranoid or should i do some identity searches here and google the real names of the posters here in a search along with paula downing and see ...oh gosh..there i go again..save some mustard for me Bob..:)
bret
I highly doubt Paula is participating here under an alias. OTOH, I don't doubt that there are people (using their real names) who seek to represent her views, but how true a representation is unknown.

I appreciate that you have reached out to Paula, Bret, and I encourage her to repsond. She is also most welcome to participate here on WaccoBB, as well. I truly hope you can work something out.

And, you don't need to. You have full control to pick something quite unfortunate and polarizing for the community (a competing Sunday market) or something that would be big benefit and, at this point, healing for the community (a market at any other time).

Barry

12-08-2012, 06:43 PM

hi
i admit i dont know what a sprout crusher is but we are moving forward without any management from either side. call me if you want to walk the site
bret
Rossmen's mention of "sprout crusher" was a reference to Dan Smith and the supposition that he crushed some of his sprouts while filming the interview I posted here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?88372-The-Great-Santa-Rosa-Farmer-s-Market-Controversy&p=149872#post149872).

Nancy M Prebilich

12-08-2012, 09:13 PM

Alrighty folks-I’ll bite! You want mustard?! How about mayo, catsup, and relish too!! How about a frigin’ buffet, shall we?!

So… you know my REEEAL name (ooooOOOOOoooh!!)! Nancy Marie Prebilich, born 8-23-74, Santa Rosa, Memorial Hospital…. what else do you want? Well, don’t worry, there’s more to come… you will be given the chance to know ALLL about me.

First, let me just say WHY I chose not to be anonymous (because technically, that’s giving no name at all- and we shall have an example of that later), but rather, to use a pseudonym. It was for much the SAME reasons that someone like say….Mark Felt….did not want his identity known when he was revealing factual & substantiated, yet delicately dangerous material from which we all benefitted. “DEEP THROAT” shocked this nation and brought down a corrupt power within our very own, happy-go-lucky “democratic” system- and THANK GOD! It wasn’t until 11 yrs. after the man was dead that we knew his real identity- a lost opportunity, perhaps, to thank him for his civil contribution, but who’s to say he would have lived to the ripe age of 95 had he “stood behind his words” with his real identity. Think of all the years he would have lost out on taking in the beauty of Sonoma County as he walked among us, at the farmer’s market perhaps- while we reaped the reward of his very risky actions- a more honest government, at least for a moment, during a very critical time.

Here is a transcript of a phone message, anonymously left by a SROFM/SEB FM vendor (non-farmer/producer) to a fellow vendor (a stone-fruit farmer), after the latter had disseminated a letter to the entire membership on Dec, 27, 2010, following the termination of Paula’s contract and the rising of an unlawful coup, which she was directing (I have the email correspondences to prove it!) with a mission to get her reinstated. The letter was entitled, “The Price Of Freedom Is Eternal Vigilance (Thomas Jefferson),” to which he signed his god-given name:

“Hey, I’m just calling you back because you hung up on me and I think you’re a pussy OK because here you come from the central valley with your lies in this market trying to drag it down. You personally, you people that have come and fucked up our market have personally cost me a lot of money because now our farmers market is dragging. Our customers are pissed off because of people like you. Stay the fuck home dude. Stay the fuck home. Out of Northern California and stop bothering people cause if you don’t some shit might happen to you, OK? You don’t know me and you don’t have to fucking know me but I know you and I know where the fuck you live. So stop bothering people in Northern California asshole.”

After my sister and I helped him to figure out who it was (whoever it was that commented here that there really is no anonymity in the digital age is right!), the victim informed Paula and the SRFM BOD (on which I was sitting at the time). After great effort to even convince the BOD that the matter had to be followed up, the only action taken was 1) questioning the suspected offender (who readily confessed!!) and 2) offer a verbal apology (he did). Do you think he was suspended in any way, having violated the paramount rule that everyone must be courteous and respectful at all times? No negative or disparaging talk at the market or to any persons? Answer: BIG FAT “NO!” Kinda like when we all witnessed Paula tell Larry of TTT Ranch to “Fuck OFF!!” as we were setting up our tents…. Paula’s punishment for breaking her very own rule?....”I’m sorry!”

After attending every available board meeting for over a year and a half, serving on the board, being appointed chairman of the Bylaws committee by Joel Kiff (Reene Kiff’s husband, for those of you who know your FM history), following every “grievance” and “appeal” process, only to stand before the Chairman of the grievance committee (a SRFM & SEB farmer/vendor) who admitted he hadn’t even read completely through the 6-page, 12 pt. font Bylaws or Rules & Regs., yet was still submitting a recommendation to the BOD of “guilty of having violated rules & regs.” to the BOD (much like MANY of you here on this Post; those of you who say “I admit I don’t know all the details, but here’s my conclusion and I’m stickin’ to it!), getting kicked out, watching fellow vendors who happened to support us and also followed every grievance and appeal process for their own warnings (which boiled down to talking and being associated with the Gleason Girls) ALSO get kicked out, filing a lawsuit to protect our rights, our business, and our livelihood, (and let's just throw in there for good measure my parents unexpectedly dying in the middle of it all)- AFTER ALL THIS….. who gets anonymous mail of images of the Grim Reaper?! I’ll save you the suspense: the three vendors who were kicked out!

I’ll let you chew on this for a minute… and send more in the next post (NOT TO BE TROLLING…. JUST THAT I WARNED YOU, WE ARE HAVING A BUFFET TONIGHT!)

But before I go… on the subject of pseudonyms, and the inherent discredit ability of all who use them, here’s a fun little game… let’s see if we can match PSUDONYMS with REAL NAMES:

PSUDONYMS: Ellis Bell, Brynjolf Bjarme, Dear Abby, O.Henry, Moliere, Mark Twain, Pablo Neruda, Toni Morrison, Voltaire, Woody Allen, Ho Chi Minh, Joseph Stalin, Leon Trotsky, Budda, Mother Teresa, Ram Dass, Butch Cassidy, The Sundance Kid, Bernard Shakey

REAL NAMES: Chloe Anthony Woffard, Allen Stewart Konigsberg, loseb Bessarionis dze Djugashrili, Siddhartha Gautama, Richard Albert, Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu, Nguyen Sinh Cung, Francois- Marie Arouet, Neil Young, Robert LeRoy Parker, Lev Davidovich Bronstein, Harry Alonzo Longabaugh, Chloe Anthony Wofford, Henrik Ibsen, Jean- Baptiste Poquelin, Neftali Ricardo Reyes Basoalto, Samuel Langhorne Clemens, Emily Bronte, William Sydney Porter, Pauline Esther Friedman Phillips

FUN-HUH?! Now ask yourself, “Now that these folks have been disclosed, are we to negate their works, words, deeds, actions, thought, and overall contributions?!

Now let’s get back to the specifics of this thread in terms of WACCO Policy. Ready, Barry?

Weeeell, Sara S. has not provided a real last name, Rossmen is not using his real first name, and my absolute favorite of all is our resident Sonoma County Press Democrat Writer and Radio Personality….(drumroll please!)…. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, OliviaaaaaThunderrrrKiiiity! Also Known AS: Michellllle Annaaaa Jooooordaaaan (Or is that a “Pen Name” Shelly?!)…..Who has registered her real first name as: “NOT GIVEN.” Who has registered her real last name as: “NOT GIVEN.”

Really, Barry? Are you saying she’s her own goose and therefore not part of the gaggle? A special goose? Or your policy was just simply beyond her understanding? That her absolutely false, unsubstantiated claims (and yes, Virginia, Santa will bring you the existing documents) and that her lies are ok, but my alias is not? Oh, but wait….her anonymously produced false information somehow falls within your guidelines where I did not? Or, now I got it…. You had NO IDEA that Oliviathunderkitty was in truth Michelle Anna Jordan….farmers market writer for the Press Democrat/paid contractor for the SRFM?! And since we’re being all transparent up in here…. Tell us Barry, who IS this “trusted source” of YOURS that you speak of who has the inside scoop….why hide em?!

And speaking of payment, isn’t it also within your policy, Barry, under “Referrals and Recommendations,” that you “must disclose any financial or social interest u have with what/who you are recommending?” So how much does Seb FM pay you for the advertising, or do you give that away? And shouldn’t MAJ (besides listing her real name) disclose that she’s a writer that covers farmers markets and the SRFM pays her (according to their own BOD Minutes, which I have copies of) $200/wk plus market bucks?! Or am I not understanding it right?! Honestly Barry, if (according to you) “like a storyteller [your] job is to shed light, and not master"….it leads me to wonder…. Who Is Your Master? Because it clearly does not appear to be “Self.”

As for the false information that I’m accusing MAJ of osting…. Here it is: REFM pays $75/hr. to rent the parking lot at the Vets building. Call them, ask them: If you wanted to have a Bar Mitzvah in the parking lot for the afternoon, what will it cost? (Now unless it’s changed since we signed our lease), they should tell you $75, or somewhere around that. At least for the FM that includes tables, chairs, bathroom, garbage disposal, and clean up. Not a bad deal! We simply approached the county and simply did not argue. That was it! And Granton Girl….. PLZZZZZ confirm the rate! You work for the county! You said yourself, “Some posts are allowed even when untruthful or incorrect and it is up to the forum participants to take care of correcting that”…right? But while Paula had at least THREE YEARS NOTICE that they were going to have to start paying the same rate as everyone else, she was demanding a $1,000/mo raise:

In 2010 she writes (again, part of SRFM minutes) “I just saved you $22,000 in rental costs this year….the $22,000 rental savings pays entirely for the raise I requested.” The Board offered her $500/mo. raise. Her response (Oct. 24, 2010 minutes),” I was insulted by the low offer. I have had two raises in eight years- The last raise was $500/month and that was nearly three years ago….I just saved…a total savings of $66,000 over the next 3 years.” Within a year, after getting rid of Gleason Ranch and the “trouble-makers,” and getting her raise, totaling $48,000/yr. (5-2-11), we find Paula on the front page of the Press Democrat, headline news, crying WE CAN’T AFFORD IT!!! THE FARMERS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BEAR THE BURDEN!

THIS ladies and gentle, was why we didn’t get along…. see eye to eye…..when I was sitting on the BOD as an alternate director & chairman of Bylaws committee, having to confront the question, “How are we going to afford to pay the rent?!” The unpopular thought…. Afford the rent…..don’t afford the raise….. and next thing I knew, Gleason Ranch is kicked out of Seb FM before the season ever got started!

Meanwhile (fun little side-fact)….guess how much the city of Sebastopol gets paid a week…. $11. And the taxpayers pay to put in the public restrooms and cover the clean-up costs.

I think all of this is enough for now…. But I’ll tell you what I’ll do. Tomorrow morning, I will go have coffee at the perimeter of the Farmer’s Market, where I am legally allowed to be, patronizing surrounding business, and I will sit with my dog with a bottle of catsup on the table (sorry….fresh out of mustard!!), and my documents. Throw mushy persimmons at me if you wish, or approach me, tell me off, or ask to see what I got?! How’s THAT for all u WACCO’s out there who want to believe I’m full of it?! DEAL?

Last note: Paula touted moving to the Barlow. The vendors agreed. Barlow has welcomed ALL vendors, ALL customers. The only person not welcome right now is a 70-year old, retired woman, whose services are simply no longer needed or desired. I know being let go hurts. But Paula, you are not the only one who has ever been asked not to return. Walk away gracefully….and as for the community….all this fighting over ONE PERSON, who is not being prevented from access to fresh local goods as I will be tomorrow, her services are simply just no longer desired! Let the vendors move to where they’ve been planning, support them, enjoy the plaza… it’s only 2 blocks away, and move on! The fact that the Seb FM BOD has not been able to wrap their heads around this yet…now THAT is shocking!!!

scamperwillow

12-09-2012, 11:37 AM

After seeing all that is going on and talking with some of the key players, I am thinking that two markets might be a good thing but probably not on the same day - and NOT Saturday and sunday. Two days in a row is too hard on the farmers to supply enough and would cater to the same market of customers. I would love to see an evening market at the Barlow midweek - with all their shops and cafes and wine and beer tasting and everything there open at night! Let's get a little night-time activity happening here in Sebastopol! I can't tell you how many times I've been downtown at night and wished things were open - I had money to spend even! And keep Paula's Sunday market on the plaza.

Nancy M Prebilich

12-09-2012, 11:41 AM

I'm here. Northeast bench, dog, catsup, documents... but so far no takers. :-(

Nancy M Prebilich

12-09-2012, 03:02 PM

I'm here. Northeast bench, dog, catsup, documents... but so far no takers. :-(

So, a nice couple showed up in support of me. We sat and chatted for about 40 minutes, a few uninvolved stangers struck up a conversation with me, asking about the catsup on top of my books, and we had lovely chats. And then came MAJ with her little dog. Just as she passed me, having no intention to stop, she sneered," I can't believe you're here!"

Well, I said I would! On this thread, I have been refered to with such words as "vilification," "unfair," "self-serving," "vitrriol," "nasty," "harassing," "venom," and yet, I take no offense. You know why? Because I knew going into this that setting the record straight in an environment ladden with false information and unsubstanciated conclusions, that this was not the job for a thin-skin or weak boned person. Granted, it's frustrating as hell, and you get my frustration in the tone of my writing, but I am only human too. However, the density of my skin, the strength of my bones, the frustration and offense I may or may not feel.... is MY problem, not YOURS! I would never want to restrict your freedom of speach because I didn't FEEL it to be nice or respectful, because I'm offended by it!! That is a god-given and constituation right, despite how I FEEL about the names you've called me, the accusation you've made, or the conclusions you've jumped to. You just can't tell lies; and there are laws for that that far exceed your policies, Barry- the policy that says false statements are ok, just dont offend anyone with the truth!

But I was there today with my catsup, the documents, in chronological order and context, but nobody really wants the facts; not even a writer for the PD! That tells me, none of u REALLY want to know. That there are more sock puppets here than we admit to, and that this board and its moderator (who has shown favoritism and hypocracy), is irrelevant because it has demonstrated its lack of credibiliy. Shoot me an email if u want, but I'm done talking to this self-proclaimed and so called "conscious community."

Lastly, the other reason I took a psudonym was because when you are or have been in the public eye (and I have been, in one form or fashion for 30 years), or in business with a partner, it is rare that you and your words amd actions can be compartmentalized to represent ONLY you. My contriburions here have only been MINE. Not my sister Cindy (and NO, she was not writing as Cinda- i may b the artistic one in the family, but she is more creative and clever tham THAT!!), not Gleason Ranch, not REFM, not anyone or anything else except the small tiny fraction I leave for just ME. But had u seen my real name to begin with, u would have even MORE readily dismissed anything I had to say or offer... because this "conscious community" is not interested in truth or facts, not even when I sit in a public park with a bottle of catsup ready to substanciate them. My sister has asked me to remove posts and stop spitting into the wind. She is not the public-exposure type. She likes her privacy. And now that this board and its moderator have lost credibility by its selective and hypocritical disclosure of my name, making THAT the issue of the thread and turning attention away from the IMPORTANT issue- well, I must respect my sister as well as REFM, or any one else merely associated with me, and not continue like this. I don't want them to be blacklisted too by this "conscious community."

Nancy M Prebilich

12-10-2012, 10:41 AM

I've received notification that 79Paul also expressed gratitude for my post, yet he's not listed here. Barry? Is there an attempt to make it appear as though im less supported than what i am?

I also encourage folks to read the last few comments on the thread regarding Food For Thought. Different thread, same problem: barry's abuse of moderator "priviledges!" You know, Jim Jones ALSO thought he was the founder of a "conscious community," and look how that ended up. You know THAT history, don't you MAJ?

DON'T DRINK THE KOOL-AID PEOPLE!!

caverly

12-10-2012, 11:05 AM

Nancy , will you please go away and let this group get back to the harmony which it does so beautifully .
i have seen wonderful cyber-groups destroyed by just one persistent argumentative person who just refused to stop . Don't do that to us . { And your contributions are not constructive about the Farmer's Market at this point }.
i can't believe how you strike out at so many people { including Barry } ; please take your animosity , anger, hatred and
persistent attacks some place else and leave us in PEACE . Thank you very much ....

Dorothy Friberg

12-10-2012, 11:41 AM

PLEASE, PLEASE.PLEASE Nancy, take your poison elsewhere. Dorothy Friberg

oliviathunderkitty

12-10-2012, 12:27 PM

Over the past two years, I have made no public response to Nancy Prebilich's on-going accusations and taunts directed at me but I have decided to speak publicly. Once. Think of this post as an open letter to her.

Nancy, I have tremendous empathy for you and your sister Cindy because of the unexpected and premature deaths of your parents and the problems that their deaths triggered. Loss of a loved one is always devastating and when it comes as a surprise, before its rightful time, it is overwhelming. I've experienced such losses myself and know full well that one never fully heals.

However, it is time for you to turn inward to deal with your anger and rage instead of projecting it onto others, including Paula Downing, me and now Barry. Someone needs to tell you this and perhaps someone has. If so, please listen.

Your post earlier today that linked Barry's moderation of his own web site with the tragedy of Jonestown made me shiver. One of my dearest friends lost his brother, sister-in-law and infant nephew in Jonestown and I find it deeply painful and inappropriate when that tragedy is tossed about lightly. It is red flag to me that the person making the comparison is deeply troubled.

I also find yesterday's incident at the Sebastopol Farmers Market extremely alarming. At first, I did not recognize you but once I did, I said, almost in a whisper and with shock, "I cannot believe you are here." I said this because you signed an agreement to stay away from the market and so seeing you was, indeed, shocking. Within seconds, your large dog was on top of my very small dog. Your dog, who was growling and trying to bite, had my dog by the neck. I was unable to retrieve my dog or pull off yours. You were not holding your dog's leash and you sat, smiling, on the bench for several seconds before you moved, fairly slowly, towards the dogs. An onlooker, whom I do not know, was so alarmed and frightened that she called the police. You expressed no remorse and never apologized. Instead, you sat on the bench smiling and still not holding your dog's leash. From my vantage point, this was an inappropriate response to the situation at hand and, again, made me feel that you need help.

Please, Nancy, get help and do it before an irreversible tragedy (as the death or serious injury of my dog would have been) results from your rage. I say this with kindness and concern. You have your own farmers market now, with your sister as manager and you on the board. You are clearly a very intelligent woman with tremendous energy. Why not use your intelligence and energy to make your farmers market as good as it can possibly be?

Anger begets anger, rage begets rage and no one is the better for it. Yet kindness begets kindness and that is the spirit in which I have written this post. Please, Nancy, find a way to heal, to find resolution and move on.

Ernieman

12-10-2012, 12:53 PM

Oh my God. From Barlow to dog bites smaller dog and a plethora of personal stuff. Y'all should go have a beer, tea, valium and talk about all this. I am leaving this thread because I 1) don't care about motivation, it's not a murder trial, but show me some results and 2) I am sure you don't want to hear my personal stuff and 3) it is clogging up my computer. I happen to think my stuff is really juicy and better than Barlow but you don't get to know. And, I don[t really want to know yours either. Hope the small dog is o.k.

hydrosouls

12-10-2012, 12:56 PM

At this time of year, we humans are particularly prone to losing our balance. We tend to make rash decisions and are prone to over reacting. Not only does the relative lack of light make us prone to depression, our culture is hardwire to pressure for MORE, NOW, MINE consciousness during this sacred time. Let's take a collective breath.

A few years ago a friend shared this experience: She was traveling by rail through rural Spain. A young man borded. Shortly after they were on their way again, it became apparent that he was in the midst of a full-blown psychotic episode. One of the rail passengers started singing a lullabye. The others joined the chorus. The agitated, frightened and frightening passenger settled a bit. An old woman made room on an adjacent seat and invited the fellow to sit with her. As the rest of the passengers kept the lilting lullabye going, she rocked him. When they arrived at the next stop, a mental health team was waiting to care for the ill man. This ad hoc community took the man's traumatic drama and transformed it with love, beauty and kindness.

Maybe we could exercise a bit of that practical patience toward one another here.

in peace,

Pat Rothchild of HydroSouls

theindependenteye

12-10-2012, 01:25 PM

>>>Alrighty folks-I’ll bite! You want mustard?! How about mayo, catsup, and relish too!! How about a frigin’ buffet, shall we?!

I'm trying to understand the purpose of these enraged personal attacks on the Sebastopol market manager. The question of her managing the Barlow market seems to be a long-dead issue.

If the person in question were running for city council, I'd probably still be put off by what to me seems like an irrational fury that discredits the writer, but at least I could see the point of it. But as it is, unless there's a practical intent to promote the public execution of the market manager, by stoning with turnips, it just seems that Wacco has been chosen as a forum for catharsis. But it doesn't sound as if the catharsis is working.

Whatever's at stake here, I'd offer the writer my personal opinion that it's not going to be settled in this forum.

-Conrad

Nancy M Prebilich

12-10-2012, 02:58 PM

how innapropriate of you to make this now about my dead parents and a dog tussling. I'm singing a lullaby for you, in hopes that you find peace and calm. A kind of calmness i maintained while you exemplified hysteria. I hope others in the universal train car will join me.

Happy Holidays! Peace B With U! ( 
Over the past two years, I have made no public response to Nancy Prebilich's on-going accusations and taunts directed at me but I have decided to speak publicly. Once. Think of this post as an open letter to her.

Nancy, I have tremendous empathy for you and your sister Cindy because of the unexpected and premature deaths of your parents and the problems that their deaths triggered. Loss of a loved one is always devastating and when it comes as a surprise, before its rightful time, it is overwhelming. I've experienced such losses myself and know full well that one never fully heals.

However, it is time for you to turn inward to deal with your anger and rage instead of projecting it onto others, including Paula Downing, me and now Barry. Someone needs to tell you this and perhaps someone has. If so, please listen.

Your post earlier today that linked Barry's moderation of his own web site with the tragedy of Jonestown made me shiver. One of my dearest friends lost his brother, sister-in-law and infant nephew in Jonestown and I find it deeply painful and inappropriate when that tragedy is tossed about lightly. It is red flag to me that the person making the comparison is deeply troubled.

I also find yesterday's incident at the Sebastopol Farmers Market extremely alarming. At first, I did not recognize you but once I did, I said, almost in a whisper and with shock, "I cannot believe you are here." I said this because you signed an agreement to stay away from the market and so seeing you was, indeed, shocking. Within seconds, your large dog was on top of my very small dog. Your dog, who was growling and trying to bite, had my dog by the neck. I was unable to retrieve my dog or pull off yours. You were not holding your dog's leash and you sat, smiling, on the bench for several seconds before you moved, fairly slowly, towards the dogs. An onlooker, whom I do not know, was so alarmed and frightened that she called the police. You expressed no remorse and never apologized. Instead, you sat on the bench smiling and still not holding your dog's leash. From my vantage point, this was an inappropriate response to the situation at hand and, again, made me feel that you need help.

Please, Nancy, get help and do it before an irreversible tragedy (as the death or serious injury of my dog would have been) results from your rage. I say this with kindness and concern. You have your own farmers market now, with your sister as manager and you on the board. You are clearly a very intelligent woman with tremendous energy. Why not use your intelligence and energy to make your famers market as good as it can possibly be?

Anger begets anger, rage begets rage and no one is the better for it. Yet kindness begets kindness and that is the spirit in which I have written this post. Please, Nancy, find a way to heal, to find resolution and move on.

Barry

12-10-2012, 05:59 PM

Barry

12-10-2012, 06:26 PM

There's one bit data I'd like to correct . Nancy posted that Michele Anna Jordan was a

...paid contractor for the SRFM?!...

I contacted Jaime Smedes Manager for the Santa Rosa Orignal Certified Farmer's Market (at the Wells Fargo Center) and she gave me this statement:

"Sonoma County is fortunate to have so many educated and caring individuals who have a passion to share the beauty and bounty that is found in our local farmers markets. The Santa Rosa Orignal Certified Farmers Market does NOT pay Michele Anna Jordan for what she writes. I do send her regular updates on our market in hopes that she will help us spread the word."

This is not to say any of the other things expressed on this thread are either true or false.

Nancy, I will not allow you to post any further negativity about Michele, Paula, or anybody else here. Should you feel compelled to take one final shot at me, you're welcome to it. Better make it a good one! :waccosun:

Moving back to the original subject of this thread, the farmer's market and The Barlow, I had a nice phone chat with Paula today and I'm glad to report that the Sebastopol Farmer's market will be sending a letter to The Barlow this week. So it seems all hope for amicable arrangement is not lost! I'm hoping to get copy of that letter along with permission to post it.

Nancy M Prebilich

12-10-2012, 06:38 PM

Would you like to see the board minutes in which continued, in fact, increased paymemts were approved? Or the financial statements? I had them on Sunday but you didn't show up. Maybe they're not paying her for her writing... but they clearly ARE, or at least WERE, paying her... for what service? I'm not attacking, just asking for more clarification. 
There's one bit data I'd like to correct . Nancy posted that Michele Anna Jordan was a

I contacted Jaime Smedes Manager for the Santa Rosa Orignal Certified Farmer's Market (at the Wells Fargo Center) and she gave me this statement:

"Sonoma County is fortunate to have so many educated and caring individuals who have a passion to share the beauty and bounty that is found in our local farmers markets. The Santa Rosa Orignal Certified Farmers Market does NOT pay Michele Anna Jordan for what she writes. I do send her regular updates on our market in hopes that she will help us spread the word."

This is not to say any of the other things expressed on this thread are either true or false.

Nancy, I will not allow you to post any further negativity about Michele, Paula, or anybody else here. Should you feel compelled to take one final shot at me, you're welcome to it. Better make it a good one! :waccosun:

Moving back to the original subject of this thread, the farmer's market and The Barlow, I had a nice phone chat with Paula today and I'm glad to report that the Sebastopol Farmer's market will be sending a letter to The Barlow this week. So it seems all hope for amicable arrangement is not lost! I'm hoping to get copy of that letter along with permission to post it.

fafner

12-10-2012, 06:39 PM

Thank you, Barry for your avid interest and attention to this. We do not need the negativity and your moderation is appreciated. I am glad you are in contact with Paula Downing and that you have a good feeling about an agreement. It is my sincere hope an amicable agreement can be reached.

Again, thanks,

Fafner

There's one bit data I'd like to correct . Nancy posted that Michele Anna Jordan was a

I contacted Jaime Smedes Manager for the Santa Rosa Orignal Certified Farmer's Market (at the Wells Fargo Center) and she gave me this statement:

"Sonoma County is fortunate to have so many educated and caring individuals who have a passion to share the beauty and bounty that is found in our local farmers markets. The Santa Rosa Orignal Certified Farmers Market does NOT pay Michele Anna Jordan for what she writes. I do send her regular updates on our market in hopes that she will help us spread the word."

This is not to say any of the other things expressed on this thread are either true or false.

Nancy, I will not allow you to post any further negativity about Michele, Paula, or anybody else here. Should you feel compelled to take one final shot at me, you're welcome to it. Better make it a good one! :waccosun:

Moving back to the original subject of this thread, the farmer's market and The Barlow, I had a nice phone chat with Paula today and I'm glad to report that the Sebastopol Farmer's market will be sending a letter to The Barlow this week. So it seems all hope for amicable arrangement is not lost! I'm hoping to get copy of that letter along with permission to post it.

Nancy M Prebilich

12-10-2012, 09:12 PM

The Original Certified Santa Rosa Farmer's Market, Minutes of the Board of Directors Meeting:

June 6,2011
"Paula request an extra $200/month for Michelle Jordan"

July 5,2011
"Advertising: Should we continue to give Michelle Jordan $200 in market bucks?Discussion: Chicory makes a motion to continue paying Michelle Jordan $200 market bucks/ month for her radio spot on the KRUSH. Kelley seconds, no opposition."

Sept. 6,2011
"Paula says that we have been paying Michelle Jordan $200 cash not market buck, plus $20/week market bucks"

Draft Financial Report 2011
"Promotions is under budget at present, however, much of the "Maket Bucks" expense is promotions...A portion of the $9,243 Market Bucks expense will be reallocated to "Promotions Expense (Senior Bucks, Kids, Press Democrat, Ellen)."

And yet NO "advertising" was purchased in the PD for the year 2011! At least not according to the PD's records. Besides, even if they HAD purchased advertising, according to their 2010 P&L Budget vs. Actual, they had budgeted $11,083.99 for "Promotions" & $14,999,99 for "Advertising."

Maybe, Barry, you needed to follow Michelle's advise and ask someone who KNOWS "Farmers Market History."

Not being negative, just setting your bad information straight-again!

gardenmaniac

12-10-2012, 09:37 PM

I, for one, will not be reading anything further from you, Nancy; but I will defend your right to continue. If it helps you to feel better about yourself and/or the world, post away ...

OK, that's enough, Nancy.

Just to tie up some bits of this dispute before moving on:

I contacted 79Paul and he said that he granted gratitude and and then withdrew it.

I have updated the FFT thread (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?89012-Is-Food-for-Thought-in-Forestville-approching-Scam-Charity-territory&p=160410#post160410) with my comments.

Michele Ann Jordan has restored her name to her profile. She temporarily removed it recently because of the venom being expressed in this thread and that Nancy had actively tried to get her fired from her job as a writer for the Press Democrat.

to be continued...

Barry

12-11-2012, 10:51 AM

Michele Anna Jordan asked me to post the following note:

"For several years, I did a Tuesday morning segment called “Krush Bites” with KRSH-FM morning host Doug Smith, until he died in a motorcycle accident in June of 2005. I continued doing the segment with Pam Long, who replaced Doug. When Pam left, Bites didn’t work so well with her replacement so I discontinued it.

I was not paid for this, though early on, when the segment was 15 minutes long and I drove to the station, I was given some trade. When it was shortened to 2 minutes, I called in and we chatted by phone.

In 2010, the new morning host Brian Griffith, asked me to revive Bites. I said sure but he insisted I come in, not do the segment by phone. Driving 20 to 25 minutes to a radio station (to talk for just 2 minutes) is expensive and so I said that if I came in, I needed to be paid, at least enough to cover gas. I added that I wanted to anchor the segment with the Santa Rosa Farmers Market, rather than just making it about seasonal produce, as it had been. The philosophy of the show was “shop at your local farmers market first, before you go to the supermarket.” I chose the Santa Rosa market because the station is based in Santa Rosa. We talked about all local farmers markets.

Several months passed and then Stefanie Garzoli, a sales exec at the station, called to say the Santa Rosa market was going to sponsor the show. She offered me $100 a week plus $20 (twenty) in market bucks. I was paid by a check from Wine Country Radio and was handed market bucks on Wednesdays by Paula. When the market’s contact expired after six months, I was offered market bucks but declined, saying my agreement was with the station, not the market. Bites was put on hold in February and then canceled after the attacks on me began, as the station was worried that they would increase should the segment be revived. Thus, I lost the only paid radio gig I’ve ever had.

At some point, Nancy got market records and one included a typo, that I was being given $200 a week in market bucks. It should have read $20. It was easy to verify, as my name was handwritten by the manager across any market buck I received. But she used this typo in her attempt to harm me professionally.

I should add that the market offered a donation to help support my daughter, who, after having had cancer, was going through another medical crisis that, luckily, turned out not to be cancer, though we didn’t know for several months. The check was made out to me and used exclusively for my daughter's benefit. Nancy used this to “prove” her accusations, even though she knew exactly what the check was for, as she and her sister received a similar donation from the market when their parents died.

Part of Nancy’s claim has been that I am paid by the Santa Rosa market to write about their vendors and their vendors only, a claim that can be proven false simply by opening the paper on any given Wednesday.

This is all so sad. Here we are in one of the most fertile regions of the entire world, with a glorious year round harvest, dedicated farmers and ranchers, robust farmers markets, wonderful wines and wineries, vibrant art and music communities and a thriving daily newspaper. I wake up feeling lucky every day that I have such a great way to connect with readers. Let’s let winter storms blow away all this unnecessary negativity."

Paula Downing asked me to post the following note:

"As most of you know, I was the Santa Rosa Market Manager during this period. To the best of my knowledge Nancy's allegation that the Santa Rosa Market gave Michele Jordan cash for her work is completely false. We were under contract with KRUSH radio for her to do a live radio spot every week. Part of that contract involved an expense allowance (a common and perfectly acceptable business practice) to purchase the food that she talked about on the radio. I gave Michele her expense allowance in the form of market bucks at the market each week.

It appears to me that Nancy has doctored the board records. This is a serious legal allegation and I intend to advise the Santa Rosa board immediately that Nancy is responsible for either theft or falsification of corporate records - or both.

It also appears to me that WACCO is in the middle of a vendetta that endangers you legally. That is to say, during this entire discussion Nancy has consistently presented kernels of truth which are embellished and perverted by false statements and accusations that are driven by her apparently bottomless rage. I would hope and suggest that you stop this conversation entirely. It doesn't really serve the truth nor the farmers nor the people whose character Nancy is maligning or Nancy herself.

Finally, I haven't wanted to engage in this WACCO conversation but I feel the need to speak now in order to support Michele Jordan. For Nancy to tell lies in a public forum in order to harm me is one thing. For her to tell lies in public forum in order to harm Michele Jordan who has given the most consistent, loving, caring heartfelt service to all the farmers and farmers markets in this county for decades, is intolerable. Look at Michele's record. It is impeccable. Her integrity is impeccable. She provides fair, equitable and consistently supportive reporting about all farmers and farmers markets.

Enough is enough, Barry."

I think Paula's advice to prevent this issue from going forward is well founded and is in the best interest of all involved (including me!). Other users have either asked me to stop it or removed themselves from this thread. I think this puts a suitable cap on this conversation.

I have given Nancy ample space to present her point of view (to the point of redundancy) and her posts will remain on the site. I tried to draw a line that would allow her to post non-negative posts but that didn't work. I will not accept any further posts from her regarding this matter. If she wants to post about anything else (such as posting about her market) she will need to clear it with me first and I'm sure we can work something out. I also request other users to not post anything further regarding Nancy, either positive or negative. Nancy is welcome to offer gratitude as she see's fit and reply privately (unless I get complaints about that).

Please note that whenever you use the Reply Privately you are disclosing your email address to the recipient. Similarly if you reply to a note sent via Reply Privately, you are also disclosing your email address. So if should ever receive a private note that you feel is inappropriate please forward it to me and I'll handle it.

Before any of you start screaming "freedom of speech" let me remind you that doesn't apply here and again the issue has been explored more here than in any other media. If you insist on bringing up that or related issues, please start a new thread.

There is still the conversation of what will happen with the farmer's market at The Barlow which is valid and important and I think can be carried out civilly. Let's continue to use this thread for that purpose.