ringing in my ear

[SharonMaser]

Hello,
I have been experiencing a ringing in my ears recently, especially when I am tired. Does anyone know of a healer who might deal with this? a friend said they had a similar problem and went to a homeopathist.. can you reccommend one?
Thanks,
Sharon

[erinsheff]

Hello,
I have been experiencing a ringing in my ears recently, especially when I am tired. Does anyone know of a healer who might deal with this? a friend said they had a similar problem and went to a homeopathist.. can you reccommend one?
Thanks,
Sharon

Sharon:

This is probably tinnitus. I have experienced it for years. My research, my ENT and audiologist says there's no cure. Mine seems to come and go, with no discernable cause. For me, living with it just takes the right attutude. Let me know if I can be of help.

Erin

[elizabliss]

Officially there is no cure for tinnitus. I too have lived with it for years now. Cut out alcohol, caffeine and nicotine and many times this will drastically reduce the ringing, other than that such herbs as Gotu Kola and Ginko Biloba which increase the blood flow to the upper extremeties can help a great amount. I haven't heard of any homeopathic treatments which have actually worked substantially for anyone...doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Good Luck,
Keep Well.


Hello,
I have been experiencing a ringing in my ears recently, especially when I am tired. Does anyone know of a healer who might deal with this? a friend said they had a similar problem and went to a homeopathist.. can you reccommend one?
Thanks,
Sharon

[rhonda741]

We just completed a DVD interviewing 9 people who had the same conditions: ringing in the ear (Tinnitus), IBS, projectile vomiting, headaches, spinning room. THEY ALL found their answer through Upper Cervical Care. Marin county has some good Upper Cervical doctors. You can find a list on the Links page of www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com . The DVD "Health Talk II" is available in the catalog there, also.

Bless you. I believe this is your answer! There is Hope! Rhonda


Officially there is no cure for tinnitus. I too have lived with it for years now. Cut out alcohol, caffeine and nicotine and many times this will drastically reduce the ringing, other than that such herbs as Gotu Kola and Ginko Biloba which increase the blood flow to the upper extremeties can help a great amount. I haven't heard of any homeopathic treatments which have actually worked substantially for anyone...doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Good Luck,
Keep Well.

[AmyC]

Hello Community,

There are many modalities for healing. If anyone would like to explore a newly developed technique using the Destination Coach methods, I would be happy to help anyone with tinnitus resolve this issue. Please email me at: [email protected] for more information.

Go to: https://www.teloscenter.com for more information about Destination Coach work. I have been using this method to help people change their beliefs and heal for over 3 years. It WORKS!

All you need is to be willing to change.

;-)

Amy




We just completed a DVD interviewing 9 people who had the same conditions: ringing in the ear (Tinnitus), IBS, projectile vomiting, headaches, spinning room. THEY ALL found their answer through Upper Cervical Care. Marin county has some good Upper Cervical doctors. You can find a list on the Links page of www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com (https://www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com) . The DVD "Health Talk II" is available in the catalog there, also.

Bless you. I believe this is your answer! There is Hope! Rhonda

[rhonda741]

You are so correct! There are many modalities for healing. Spiritual, mental & physical. The Upper Cervical techniques are physical since they have nothing to do with a patients mental belief or spiritual belief system. These doctors do a specific x-ray of the bones surrounding the brainstem, which controls every organ and body function in the body through the 7 trillion nerves connecting to the medulla oblongata.

They then analyze the position of the two bones in relation to the cranial axis point before correcting the misalignment, which reduces the nerve interference, allowing the symptoms to disappear and the body to heal over time. This produces health.

If you have people who do not respond to your modality, please refer them to an Upper Cervical doctor. My husband suffered for 12 years with intense pain (TN) and NO ONE ever referred him to someone else. This is why we now tell everyone we know about Upper Cervical science.

A passionate Upper Cervical advocate with no motive,
Rhonda
www.whattimetuesday.com
www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com


Hello Community,

There are many modalities for healing. If anyone would like to explore a newly developed technique using the Destination Coach methods, I would be happy to help anyone with tinnitus resolve this issue. Please email me at: [email protected] for more information.

Go to: https://www.teloscenter.com for more information about Destination Coach work. I have been using this method to help people change their beliefs and heal for over 3 years. It WORKS!

All you need is to be willing to change.

;-)

Amy

[Malene]

Please be aware that no one on this board is a doctor, only a doctor can diagnose tinitus, and no self respecting doctor would do so on a message board.

I would start with an MD. It certainly sounds like tinitus, but it needs a doctor to confirm that.

When / if you get that dx you can look at whatever research is out there for help / support with tinitus. Follow the trail of information from people who has researched it - doctors who can actually tell you exactly what is happening in your body, people who has experienced it, and what they have used to work with it etc.

Your own beliefs will have a huge impact on which healing modalities works the best for you of course.

Although - I personally do not feel too good about healing modalities that requires "willingness to change" or "faith" in order to work. But that is just my prejudice - you go with your belief systems.

Malene




Hello,
I have been experiencing a ringing in my ears recently, especially when I am tired. Does anyone know of a healer who might deal with this? a friend said they had a similar problem and went to a homeopathist.. can you reccommend one?
Thanks,
Sharon

[don storm]

Hello,
I have been experiencing a ringing in my ears recently, especially when I am tired. Does anyone know of a healer who might deal with this? a friend said they had a similar problem and went to a homeopathist.. can you reccommend one?
Thanks,
Sharon


Sharon,

I have the same problem and I take Ginkgo [ginkgo biloba] for it. It takes a few weeks to notice a difference. If I stop taking it it always comes back again..You can buy it at Rosemarys Garden or any vitamin store.

don storm

[rhonda741]

Hi! If you google "ringing in the ears" you usually find it is a prelude to Tinnitus or Meinere's Disease. We just filmed a DVD being shown on public TV in MI about these and other symptoms. We interviewed 9 people whose lives were devasted by all these symptoms until they found Upper Cervical Care. You can look at this DVD on our websites below, or view snippets about Upper Cervical by going to www.YOUTube.com (https://www.YOUTube.com) and searchng "Upper Cervical, Tomasi" .

Please check this out, We are a non-profit charity. We want to reach people who've tried everything, like we did, and spare them years of lost family life.

Bless you,
Rhonda Tomasi
www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com (https://www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com)
www.whatTimetuesday.com (https://www.whatTimetuesday.com)


Sharon,

I have the same problem and I take Ginkgo [ginkgo biloba] for it. It takes a few weeks to notice a difference. If I stop taking it it always comes back again..You can buy it at Rosemarys Garden or any vitamin store.

don storm

[Sara S]

I've had a great lessening of the racket by taking Lipo-Flavonoid; at some point in the past the condition was said to be (partly) a result of the aspirin I take daily.



Hello,
I have been experiencing a ringing in my ears recently, especially when I am tired. Does anyone know of a healer who might deal with this? a friend said they had a similar problem and went to a homeopathist.. can you reccommend one?
Thanks,
Sharon

[bird]

There can be many causes for tinitus. I had it very badly a few years ago before my adrenal failure was diagnosed. It is definitely a sign that your body is out of balance. I'm sure that there are natural remedies for tinitus, but you need to find out why you have it before treating (obviously).
All the Best and Peace.



Please be aware that no one on this board is a doctor, only a doctor can diagnose tinitus, and no self respecting doctor would do so on a message board.

I would start with an MD. It certainly sounds like tinitus, but it needs a doctor to confirm that.

When / if you get that dx you can look at whatever research is out there for help / support with tinitus. Follow the trail of information from people who has researched it - doctors who can actually tell you exactly what is happening in your body, people who has experienced it, and what they have used to work with it etc.

Your own beliefs will have a huge impact on which healing modalities works the best for you of course.

Although - I personally do not feel too good about healing modalities that requires "willingness to change" or "faith" in order to work. But that is just my prejudice - you go with your belief systems.

Malene

[jonmagic]

The ears are connected to the kidneys. There is nothing to say you have tinnitus, what you do have is weakened kidney energy, probably from cronict dehydration or a lack of electrilites.

Try this simple remedy before seeking more extream messures:

1/2 teaspoon grey sea salt or pink himalayan salt disolved in water when you wake up and again between 2 and 4 pm. these are the times that your kindeys most need electralites.

I would also check out the Dhyana center for more information on this imbalance.

[phooph]

Interesting you should mention this. When I was having a lot of back pain I was taking several pain killers and would cycle through aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen sodium so that I would be varying the effects on my body. I discovered that each one made my ears ring in a different tone.


I've had a great lessening of the racket by taking Lipo-Flavonoid; at some point in the past the condition was said to be (partly) a result of the aspirin I take daily.

[Braggi]

Bullshit alert! The advice given in the post below is potentially dangerous.

Some people with hypertension develop ringing in the ears. If such people also take in relatively large doses of salt they could be asking for trouble.

BTW, the ears are connected to the kidneys? Sorry. Not in real medicine or in any other kind of reality unless you consider most of the head and trunk as the connective tissue.

-Jeff


The ears are connected to the kidneys. There is nothing to say you have tinnitus, what you do have is weakened kidney energy, probably from cronict dehydration or a lack of electrilites.

Try this simple remedy before seeking more extream messures:

1/2 teaspoon grey sea salt or pink himalayan salt disolved in water when you wake up and again between 2 and 4 pm. these are the times that your kindeys most need electralites.

I would also check out the Dhyana center for more information on this imbalance.

[Braggi]

Interesting you should mention this. When I was having a lot of back pain I was taking several pain killers and would cycle through aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen sodium so that I would be varying the effects on my body. I discovered that each one made my ears ring in a different tone.

Anyone taking aspirin or any other blood thinning analgesic should avoid ginko biloba or any blood thinning herb. Brain hemorrhages are no fun.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

.

Some people with hypertension develop ringing in the ears. If such people also take in relatively large doses of salt they could be asking for trouble. .

-Jeff
Bullshit alert!
1/2 teaspoon is now considered a "relatively large dose"?????

[alanora]

I am figuring that amounts to the daily limit of consumption for one on restriction of sodium....usually 2-3 grams.


Bullshit alert!
1/2 teaspoon is now considered a "relatively large dose"?????

[jonmagic]

First off, table salt is not the same as sea salt, both have sodium but sodium only becomes dangerous when it is de-ionized by contact with metal or other chemicals.

So yes 1/2 teaspoon of table salt could negatively effect someone but not sea salt in this low of a dosage.

Also to call my recomendation dangerous and question 4,000 years of experiential knowlage of all eastern medical traditions linking the kidneys to the ears is unfair.

[Braggi]

Please be aware that no one on this board is a doctor, only a doctor can diagnose tinitus, and no self respecting doctor would do so on a message board.

I would start with an MD. It certainly sounds like tinitus, but it needs a doctor to confirm that. ...

Malene, you don't know that no doctors are represented on this board. There could be several. I know of at least one.

Tinnitus means "ringing in the ears" so the person in question definitely has tinnitus, no doctor required. It is a symptom, not an illness just as chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, sore throat or smelly feet are all symptoms.

Tinnitus can have many causes and tracking down the cause might require a real medical doctor. I'd choose an otorhynolaryngologist as they are the experts. (Ear, nose and throat doc.) I know of one in Santa Rosa I've had good luck with. He had no trouble recommending home treatments over pharmaceuticals (even without me mentioning my preference).

Theodore Olson, MD
Ear Nose and Throat
196 Sotoyome St.
Santa Rosa, CA
528-0565

-Jeff

[Braggi]

First off, table salt is not the same as sea salt, both have sodium but sodium only becomes dangerous when it is de-ionized by contact with metal or other chemicals.

So yes 1/2 teaspoon of table salt could negatively effect someone but not sea salt in this low of a dosage.

Also to call my recomendation dangerous and question 4,000 years of experiential knowlage of all eastern medical traditions linking the kidneys to the ears is unfair.

Unfair? 4,000 year old nonsense isn't medical science. Table salt and sea salt are nearly identical. Both contain nearly the same amount of sodium, so yes, that could be dangerous to someone suffering effects of hypertension to the point they're experiencing tinnitus as a result. Note that this would be a vanishingly small per cent of the population, but adding salt by the teaspoonful to a typical American's diet which is already overloaded with salt could be ... dangerous.

Tinnitus is most likely caused by an ear infection but could also be caused by a brain tumor so treating the kidneys by adding salt to the diet is pretty nonsensical whether someone somewhere has been doing it for 4,000 years or not. Ear infections and brain tumors can cause disability or death and are best dealt with by modern science.

That's only fair.

-Jeff

[Malene]

The serious danger here is a bunch of non-professionals offering medical advice.

Some of the advice might work sometimes for some people. Some of it might only have placebo effects, none of it is specifically designed for the person who needs it. None of it is double checked by a professional for safety taking in the specific condition of the person who will use it.

All of it highly dangerous. The people who even think they can give medical advice without a license should consider liability laws. If anyone here giving advice does have some kind of medical license then I suggest getting a better liability insurance. Online advice to someone you havent seen in your office sure exposes you.

Go see a doctor - that would be my advice.

Malene




Hello,
I have been experiencing a ringing in my ears recently, especially when I am tired. Does anyone know of a healer who might deal with this? a friend said they had a similar problem and went to a homeopathist.. can you reccommend one?
Thanks,
Sharon

[phooph]

Having worked in two acupuncture clinics I have seen 4000 year old nonsense work after years of treatment with western medical "science" failed to bring about any resolution of the condition. Many patients were actually sent by their doctors after months and even years of applying western medical technology failed.

The western model of treatment sees the body as an assembly of parts and the eastern model sees it as an integrated system, which is why something that seems goofy to western medicine such as the ears being connected to the kidneys makes perfect sense. The ears are also connected to the hands and the feet, but then so is every other organ in the body in eastern medicine.

The National Institutes of Health researched acupuncture and decided that, well, it seems to work, but not understanding by way of western science how it works they have invented their own explanations of how and limited their acceptance of efficacy to pain control. Meanwhile, one of the most effective treatments for substance abuse is recognized to be acupuncture (https://ndsn.org/sept95/guest.html).
And here is an article from the JAMA (https://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/287/1/55) on the use of acupuncture to treat cocaine addiction. There's some blank space on this page so scroll down.

I think the greatest hope for fixing our broken medical system is what is known as integrative medicine which blends western and eastern modalities along with nutrition, herbalism, epigenetics, neuroimmunology, and a host of other wholistic approaches. Western medicine as it is now practiced is listed as the leading cause of preventable death in the US by the National Academy of Sciences.

PS: I was listening to an interview with cell biologist and former instructor at the University of Wisconson School of Medicine, Dr. Bruce Lipton, and a caller asked about some promising cancer treatment that had been working very well and suddenly disappeared. Dr. Lipton recounted a conversation he'd had with the head of one of the major pharmaceutical companies in which he'd been told that when a cancer drug worked too well it was taken off the market as a money loser. The capitalist model has not been good for medicine.




Unfair? 4,000 year old nonsense isn't medical science. Table salt and sea salt are nearly identical. Both contain nearly the same amount of sodium, so yes, that could be dangerous to someone suffering effects of hypertension to the point they're experiencing tinnitus as a result. Note that this would be a vanishingly small per cent of the population, but adding salt by the teaspoonful to a typical American's diet which is already overloaded with salt could be ... dangerous.

Tinnitus is most likely caused by an ear infection but could also be caused by a brain tumor so treating the kidneys by adding salt to the diet is pretty nonsensical whether someone somewhere has been doing it for 4,000 years or not. Ear infections and brain tumors can cause disability or death and are best dealt with by modern science.

That's only fair.

-Jeff

[Malene]

Jeff,

If a doctor went on to a message board and recommended treatments without seeing a patient in their office they would expose themselves to such a huge amount of liabilities that no doctor with 5 brain cells would dare to try.

I havent seen anyone claim to be a doctor on this thread. They wouldnt do that. Its not even ethical to treat someone on a message board like this.

*head shaking*. I highly doubt any doctors has posted to this thread. If they have, that would not ever be a doctor I would go to. I would think it would be a doctor in dire danger of losing their license as well.

Malene




Malene, you don't know that no doctors are represented on this board. There could be several. I know of at least one.

Tinnitus means "ringing in the ears" so the person in question definitely has tinnitus, no doctor required. It is a symptom, not an illness just as chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, sore throat or smelly feet are all symptoms.

Tinnitus can have many causes and tracking down the cause might require a real medical doctor. I'd choose an otorhynolaryngologist as they are the experts. (Ear, nose and throat doc.) I know of one in Santa Rosa I've had good luck with. He had no trouble recommending home treatments over pharmaceuticals (even without me mentioning my preference).

Theodore Olson, MD
Ear Nose and Throat
196 Sotoyome St.
Santa Rosa, CA
528-0565

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... when a cancer drug worked too well it was taken off the market as a money loser. The capitalist model has not been good for medicine.

Any cancer drug that works at all is put on a pedestal with a sky high price. What you are saying makes no sense, capitalist or otherwise.

There is not too little cancer in the world. There is too much, and, what wonder drug promoters usually forget, cancer isn't a single illness but a category of many illnesses with many causes. It's unlikely any single treatment will ever cure more than a few types of cancer.

The rest of your post is filled with misinformation and many incorrect assumptions but I don't have time to disassemble it right now.

The reason "integrative" medicine is becoming more popular is because people come out of treatments more satisfied that they've been seen and heard. I have no problem with that and I agree there is healing potential there. However, let's be honest about what treatments work based on science and what treatments are placebo.

Just because a belief is old doesn't mean it's correct. In fact, older beliefs usually fall when scrutinized by open minded researchers. That's not bad. That's good. It's called progress.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Jeff,

If a doctor went on to a message board and recommended treatments without seeing a patient in their office they would expose themselves to such a huge amount of liabilities that no doctor with 5 brain cells would dare to try. ...

I see that you're arguing with me but I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

Doctors post to BBs. No problem with that. None have posted on this discussion, as far as I know, but there would be no threat to a license if one did. Doctors can post opinions and advice. I imagine most would say just what you did and what I did: so see a doctor.

Doctors are unlikely to propose treatments on line without seeing the person. OK? We agree. That said, Dr. Dean Edell offers professional medical advice on the radio quite regularly. It can be done.

-Jeff

[phooph]

Any cancer drug that works at all is put on a pedestal with a sky high price. What you are saying makes no sense, capitalist or otherwise.

Any drug that works very well does not make as much money as a drug that works not so well. For instance there is the vine that grows in the Amazon that has long been used as a contraceptive by the native population. One dose renders a woman permanently sterile. Another plant reverses the effect and can cure sterility from other causes also. Neither of these plants create the side effects seen in birth control pills, IUDs and standard fertility treatments. These plants have been known to the drug industry since the 1950s but you will never see them on the market as there is little profit in a one dose drug.



There is not too little cancer in the world. There is too much, and, what wonder drug promoters usually forget, cancer isn't a single illness but a category of many illnesses with many causes. It's unlikely any single treatment will ever cure more than a few types of cancer.

It is not about how much cancer there is in the world, but about how much money there is to be made. Drug companies are not in the business of healing people, but of making money and decisions are made based on revenue enhancement, not efficacy of the product.



The rest of your post is filled with misinformation and many incorrect assumptions but I don't have time to disassemble it right now.

Your rebuttal is nothing but misinformation and ignorance of the facts. You have swallowed the cool-aid from the medical-industrial complex and real science and facts have been replaced by unsupported ideology.


The reason "integrative" medicine is becoming more popular is because people come out of treatments more satisfied that they've been seen and heard. I have no problem with that and I agree there is healing potential there. However, let's be honest about what treatments work based on science and what treatments are placebo.

My feelings exactly but the industry does not concur.


Just because a belief is old doesn't mean it's correct. In fact, older beliefs usually fall when scrutinized by open minded researchers. That's not bad. That's good. It's called progress.

-Jeff

And just because a belief is new doesn't mean it's correct either, and if the research is truly open minded it will sort the wheat from the chaff. Unfortunately vested interests in medicine are no different than vested interests in the energy business. If you knew the history of medicine a bit better than you seem to you would see the centuries of vested interests trying to protect or establish turf at the expense of patients. We think, for instance, that antibiotics are something new in the 20th century, but they were used 2000 years ago and pushed out along with other herbal medicines by the new and "more modern" allopathic physicians who treated patients with toxic metal salts. Do you have any idea how many modern pharmaceuticals are based on what was once considered folk medicine?

[Dynamique]

CLUELESS ALERT!

The ears are not physically connected to the kidneys, and that's not what the other person was saying, although if one is not familiar with accupuncture or other energy medicine, that could certainly be the interpretation. Personally, I'd never heard of a meridian influencing both the ear and the kidney, but the kidney influences plenty of meridians so it's possible. Incidentally, the gonads arise from the same primordial tissue as the kidneys and they are definitely connected, both physically and energetically. And the toes are connected via the peripheral nervous system to the genitals (some folks more than others)... but that's not exactly an accupuncture meridian!

Good balanced salts such as sea salt (sel gris) and pink salt which have a variety of electrolytes and minerals and actually reduce blood pressure. The standard allopathic "stay away from salt to reduce blood pressure" is a load of hooey. Ha! shows what you -- and allopaths -- *really* know.


Bullshit alert! The advice given in the post below is potentially dangerous.

Some people with hypertension develop ringing in the ears. If such people also take in relatively large doses of salt they could be asking for trouble.

BTW, the ears are connected to the kidneys? Sorry. Not in real medicine or in any other kind of reality unless you consider most of the head and trunk as the connective tissue.

-Jeff

[Dixon]

...to call my recomendation dangerous and question 4,000 years of experiential knowlage of all eastern medical traditions linking the kidneys to the ears is unfair.

It's "unfair" to question your position? Hmmmm...sounds like closedmindedness to me.

Note that "experiential knowledge" (i.e., peoples' interpretations of the meaning of their experience) can always be mistaken. Questioning it is part of the process whereby we figure out which "knowledge" is mistaken and which is true.

Note also that some belief's having been around for 4000 years tells us nothing about whether it's true or false. Examples of false beliefs that have been around longer than 4000 years: the beliefs underlying sexism, racism, imperialism, etc. So if you think that the longevity of your favorite beliefs constitutes some evidence for their truth, think again.

Luckily, we have pretty good ways to separate the true 4000-year-old beliefs from the false ones: scientific studies. When you can give us references to well-designed and properly interpreted studies that support your claims, there will be reason to respect your belief.

Blessings!
Dixon

[Braggi]

CLUELESS ALERT!

The ears are not physically connected to the kidneys, and that's not what the other person was saying, although if one is not familiar with accupuncture or other energy medicine, that could certainly be the interpretation. ...

Speak for yourself. I've had a girlfriend for the last 10 years who is an acupuncturist, chinese herbalist, administrator and teacher at a "college" of Chinese Medicine. You can imagine we've had some impressive conversations.

Actually, I don't think salt has much to do with high blood pressure anyway, so I'll concede that point, except for this: here's your patient Dr. Dynamique. Male in late 40s reports with ringing in the ears including low frequencies. The problem had been ongoing for over a year and had gotten worse in recent weeks.

What do you think? Kidney problem? Shall you prescribe sea salt and acupuncture? Chinese herbs? After all, the kidneys are connected to the ears and we've known that for 4,000 years. No?

The ear, nose and throat specialist took one look into the ear in question and declared, "Aspergillus nigra. You're growing mushrooms in there."

A few doses of an inexpensive, over the counter anti-fungal and the problem was banished. Hearing restored.

The point is this, as Malene has made so clear: if you have problems with your ears, go to a doctor. A real doctor. Problems with the ear can explode in short order. An ear infection can become a brain infection overnight. Fungal infections of the brain are fatal and it's a horrible way to go. I've seen pictures you don't want to see.

Tinnitus? Get thee to a doctor. A real doctor. An "allopath" or whatever you want to call them. Preferably one trained in a US medical school, although those are getting harder to find all the time.

"We" knew a lot of things 4,000 years ago that have been proven wrong. Knowing something for a long time doesn't make it right.

-Jeff

[Dixon]

The ears are connected to the kidneys.

If I remember correctly from my studies of some years ago, the belief that the ears are connected to the kidneys is predicated upon the visual resemblance--notice that they're roughly the same shape! Of course, that's no reason to presume any other kind of connection, but the kind of thinking that presumes such a connection based on visual resemblance underlies a lot of "alternative" practices and other paranormal codswallop. Another example: astrology, in which the purported visual resemblance of a constellation to, for instance, a crab is claimed to be correlated with crablike personality traits, LOL!
Dixon

[Braggi]

Any drug that works very well does not make as much money as a drug that works not so well. For instance there is the vine that grows in the Amazon that has long been used as a contraceptive by the native population. One dose renders a woman permanently sterile. Another plant reverses the effect and can cure sterility from other causes also. ...

No. Not really. None of this is right.

Please support these statements with some verifiable facts.

Please give me one drug that works completely against an illness that has been shelved because it worked too well. I don't think so. Psychedelics don't count.

I would love to see some supporting documentation on the Amazonian fertility switch plants. If they exist I'll grow and commercialize them.

I'll get back to your other post tomorrow.

-Jeff

PS. SharonMaser, look what you've stirred up! Is this fun? Are you learning anything helpful? I hope so.

[Malene]

Jeff,


I think in the end you and I are talking about the same thing - the rest is most likely just arguing semantics with the usual possibility for misunderstandings the Internet can foster.

I simply got uncomfortable about the amount of unlicensed medical advice, and afraid that the original poster would go and try to self medicate based on information in this thread. From reading your posts I dont think you disagree with that either.

As far as MD's posting on boards - sure it can be done. I suspect none of them would prescribe anything. I suspect the advice would be fairly general in nature, and in the end usually end with a "but talk to your doctor about the specific treatment for you". I could imagine an MD saying "we often treat this condition this way - but I dont know if that is the preferred or even safe treatment for you without seeing you in my office". I dont think an MD would ever say "Ohh, just take this and you will be fine".

For the whole thread, and in regards to acupuncture -

I think acupuncture has some clear scientific proof to work for many things - but it also has limitations. Few people would for instance rush to their acupuncturist if they had a compound bone fracture. Well trained and ethical L.Ac's would agree with this.

A bone fracture definitely need the capabilities of western medicine such as xrays to be certain it heals properly and no surgery is needed. I definitely believe that in order for it to be safe in situations like this - first get the MD's opinion and then afterwards find out if there are safe alternatives to western medicine before making a choice for treatment. After a bone has been set, and while it is healing maybe the healing process can be supported with acupuncture.

If the original poster went to an L.Ac then he or she would hopefully be treated ethically and if necessary referred to an MD.

Taking advice from a bunch of people online in regards to a medical condition is unsafe.

This thread is a huge example of why it would be unsafe.

Malene





I see that you're arguing with me but I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

Doctors post to BBs. No problem with that. None have posted on this discussion, as far as I know, but there would be no threat to a license if one did. Doctors can post opinions and advice. I imagine most would say just what you did and what I did: so see a doctor.

Doctors are unlikely to propose treatments on line without seeing the person. OK? We agree. That said, Dr. Dean Edell offers professional medical advice on the radio quite regularly. It can be done.

-Jeff

[Hummingbear]

Tinnitus? Get thee to a doctor. A real doctor. An "allopath" or whatever you want to call them. Preferably one trained in a US medical school, although those are getting harder to find all the time.

-Jeff

Jeff, it's rare for Tinnitus to be cured by a doctor, "real" or imaginary. My brother, who is a firm believer in medical science, and has gold-plated medical insurance, has suffered from it for many years with no relief. So have I; several doctors have told me there's nothing they can do.

So your advice is not terribly helpful.
If it makes you feel any better, my acupuncturist couldn't cure it, either.

So if anyone has a remedy, no matter how "anecdotal," I'd be willing to try it.

[Dynamique]

this reminds me of the show "Mystery Diagnosis" which describes the grinder that people have gone through trying to find someone who can figure out what their mysterious ailment is. Many times it takes years and dozens of doctors and sometimes other types of practitioners before someone listens, does appropriate tests, and puts it together.

What people are trying to do here is get information, ideas, and the benefit of others' experience rather than re-inventing the wheel and going through the guessing-game grinder. You seem to have some sort of bug in your butt about anecdotal information. I think it is one of *several* sources of information regarding the nature of the problem and what type of practitioner can help. One must use some good sense in evaluating such info; of course it is not a substitute for qualified analysis from a licensed practitioner.

my advice for anyone having some sort of problem, including yours, is ask around, do your research and due diligence, find the best licensed practitioner that you can, and get a thorough physical exam and reasonable tests. There is no substitute for a thorough exam and history regardless of what sort of license the practitioner has.

With respect to the assertion that there are no doctors on this board, hopefully that has been clarified. There's at least one MD, one ND that I know of (naturapathic doctor, and yes that requires medical school and a license from the state), several DCs, probably at least one DO...

If someone has completed a course of study at an accredited training institution and then passed a licensing exam and received a license from the state, then they are a licensed medical practitioner. There are all kinds of medical practice, and frankly I'm tired of your blathering about "real doctors" and "real medicine" and bashing any other practice that does not meet your idea of "real" or scientific enough. Healing practices, like any other practice, do not endure for long if they do not work and/or meet people's needs. Allopathy has its place, but it also kills a lot of people. The pharmacy industry has created some good things, but it has become a monster that is harming our collective health and turned allopaths into over-educated drug pushers.

I sure hope your L.Ac. girlfriend had the good sense to take her leave of you. If not, she needs the services of an MFC, Psych. D. or maybe an LCSW!


Speak for yourself. I've had a girlfriend for the last 10 years who is an acupuncturist, chinese herbalist, administrator and teacher at a "college" of Chinese Medicine. You can imagine we've had some impressive conversations.

Actually, I don't think salt has much to do with high blood pressure anyway, so I'll concede that point, except for this: here's your patient Dr. Dynamique. Male in late 40s reports with ringing in the ears including low frequencies. The problem had been ongoing for over a year and had gotten worse in recent weeks.

What do you think? Kidney problem? Shall you prescribe sea salt and acupuncture? Chinese herbs? After all, the kidneys are connected to the ears and we've known that for 4,000 years. No?

The ear, nose and throat specialist took one look into the ear in question and declared, "Aspergillus nigra. You're growing mushrooms in there."

A few doses of an inexpensive, over the counter anti-fungal and the problem was banished. Hearing restored.

The point is this, as Malene has made so clear: if you have problems with your ears, go to a doctor. A real doctor. Problems with the ear can explode in short order. An ear infection can become a brain infection overnight. Fungal infections of the brain are fatal and it's a horrible way to go. I've seen pictures you don't want to see.

Tinnitus? Get thee to a doctor. A real doctor. An "allopath" or whatever you want to call them. Preferably one trained in a US medical school, although those are getting harder to find all the time.

"We" knew a lot of things 4,000 years ago that have been proven wrong. Knowing something for a long time doesn't make it right.

-Jeff

[Sciguy]

Jeff said it already - Bullshit alert!!!

Table salt - pure sodium chloride - is identical to something like 96 to 98% of sea salt (depending on which sea the salt came from). No difference. Sorry. No contact with metals needed. No deionization is going to take place under normal conditions (in presence of water) with metals or not. I have hypertension and I would never follow a regimen like you recommend.

4000 years of bullshit is still bullshit.

Sciguy


First off, table salt is not the same as sea salt, both have sodium but sodium only becomes dangerous when it is de-ionized by contact with metal or other chemicals.

So yes 1/2 teaspoon of table salt could negatively effect someone but not sea salt in this low of a dosage.

Also to call my recomendation dangerous and question 4,000 years of experiential knowlage of all eastern medical traditions linking the kidneys to the ears is unfair.

[Braggi]

Jeff, it's rare for Tinnitus to be cured by a doctor, "real" or imaginary. My brother, who is a firm believer in medical science, and has gold-plated medical insurance, has suffered from it for many years with no relief. So have I; several doctors have told me there's nothing they can do.

So your advice is not terribly helpful.
If it makes you feel any better, my acupuncturist couldn't cure it, either. ...

So your advice is ... just live with it? Give up?

Tinnitus always has a cause. In most cases, the cause is not life threatening or even health threatening. It's just an irritation. In some cases, as in the one I mentioned, the cause could be immediately life threatening, is easily diagnosed, assuming a visit to a real doctor, hopefully an ENT specialist, easily treated and easily cured.

The patient in the case I mentioned was me. The fungus had already started to erode the eardrum. Fortunately, it healed completely and my hearing was restored to its previous state. I was lucky. Had I waited a few more weeks I may have lost the hearing in that ear, or worse.

The ears, like the eyes, are just too fragile and too close to the brain to fool around with. If you have any hearing or vision problem, get to a doctor, a real MD and hopefully one specifically trained to handle problems with that part of the body.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... (naturapathic doctor, and yes that requires medical school and a license from the state) ...

Foul!

"Naturopaths" are NOT medical doctors, have never been to medical school and do not have a medical license.

Do not be fooled! Real doctors have MD or DO on their business cards. "ND" does not mean a credentialed medical doctor.

It is possible for an MD or a DO (real medical doctors with real medical licenses) to take "naturopath" training and/or offer naturopathic type treatments so they can get on the unregulated gravy train of "alternative" treatments. Buyer beware.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... I sure hope your L.Ac. girlfriend had the good sense to take her leave of you. If not, she needs the services of an MFC, Psych. D. or maybe an LCSW!

Got something against psychiatrists who are real Medical Doctors?

We both feel like our relationship is permanent. We're pretty well adjusted, despite our strange attractions. :wink:

-Jeff

PS. I'm supposing you meant Psy. D not Psych. D.

[Sylph]

Well, thanks a lot! (sarcastic tone) Now I am noticing the high-pitched 'locust' sound that was there before, but not bothering me.

Seriously, Jeff's advice is good. Have a real doctor (or NP, but preferably an ENT) look in the ear, and run any other tests that may be needed. Not to be an alarmist, but the worst case scenario is a brain tumor! That's just one (rare) cause of many for tinnitus.

Hummingbear has a point, as well. Many people have sought help, but no cause is found and they have to learn to live with tinnitus. Dr. Edell gets these calls regularly!

I was reading the comments after the article on Medicine.net, I think, and although anecdotal reports are suspect, people had interesting ideas.
Vitamin B-12 deficiency was one possible cause and the tinnitus was relieved after B-12 shots. Some ENT doctors recommended niacin (may have unpleasant side effects). Several people found they got rid of the tinnitus when they stopped taking Vitamin E!

If you have to live with it (like 38 million Americans) you can try to ignore it... or use white noise to help get to sleep and music during the day.

Also, it's very important to protect your ears from excessive noise! All that rock and roll is taking it's toll. Too late for many of us!

[rhonda741]

Jeff:

I've been reading your statements, wondering who you were. Thank you for the full disclosure behind your big words and commanding performance.

Yes, many of us THANK GOD that there are entities who offer atlernatives to modern Western science, like the Naturopaths and chinese herbalists. Let's look at a few FACTS:

The NUMBER ONE KILLER in America is NOT heart disease or high blood pressure, but Iatragenic Disease, commonly known as Medical errors. The number of people who die EVERY DAY from medical related incidence or error is the equivalent to 6 (SIX) jumbo jets crashing and killing everyone aboard. THAT Happens EVERY DAY!!!!!! That is outrageous!

The NUMBER ONE suggestion a medical (real doctor ????) makes is to take tests, and more tests, and more tests, and then prescribe a drug that they
1. own stock in the producing pharmaceutical company of
2. receive kick-backs & benefits for perscribing x # of _______ within a designated time frame
3. KNOW that the drug will not "cure" anything, but instead create issues that will require more drugs to compensate for the bad side affects of this new drug, which MAY kill the person because their system will not handle the side affects mentioned in pica 4 print on the label inside the box

The Number TWO suggestion by REAL medical doctors is to cut an organ out (for $72,000 +) that will provide a little relief but shorten the expected life span of the individual mutilated by the "expertise" of the surgeon who performs barbaric atrocities to the human body for a "fee" which pays a portion of his malpractice insurance.

If this sounds cynical, it probably is because you've sold your soul to an institution that is fallen victim to the pharmaceutical world and GREED under the guise of "helping people".

IF YOU WANT to know the truth and really help people, then read the reports of these people who have tried alternative approaches to health and gotten over their dibilitating illnesses. Their desire is to help others without expecting a financial gain or showing their excellent knowledge base. Shame on you for putting down members on this group who do not have an agenda or need to perform to your arrogant responses.

We show a video on our webiste (www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com (https://www.uppercervicaladvocates.com/)) of Montel Williams being referred to an Upper Cervical Doctor, by his REAL medical doctor. Of course, the Upper Cervical doctor, according to your qualifications is not a REAL DOCTOR because he does not TEST, REMOVE organs or prescribe drugs). That means he is NOT a MD or DO, doesn't it? Montel goes on to say his MS disappeared after his atlas was corrected. How many modern REAL doctors have patients that say that? We have unlimited testimonies from people saying the same thing on our site.

We advertise a movie, produced by patients who tried traditional medical treatment and found that their symptoms only grew worse. (www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com (https://www.uppercervicaladvocates.com)). "The Power of Upper Cervical" illustrates WHY correcting the atlas will remove the interference of the nerves causing the dis-ease of the body, and restore health to people. It was paid for by people ($200,000) who were told by REAL medical doctors that they would "just have to learn to live with their afflictions". (Ringing in the ears, Meinere's, IBS, and Fibromyalgia)

In the movie, an Upper Cervical doctor shares the story of a REAL medical doctor who admitted that he could not refer patients to the Upper Cervical doctor because of the repudiation from his peers. He had experienced a removal of impotency following 15 years of REAL doctor tests and medical perscriptions. His wife no longer has migraine headaches, and his teenage daughter has regular cycles after their atlas corrections. We could go on and on. Maybe you should open your educated mind to see what else is out there.

I will post a research project from an Upper Cervical doctor who has spoken twice in Prauge, by invitation from the European medical group, about 139 Meinere's patients he's seen who no longer have tinnitutus (ringing in the ears), volitile vomiting episodes, headaches or dizziness. 130 or the 139 patients had the same misalignment of the atlas and had their atlas corrected identically.

But, you, Jeff should remain true to the REAL medical doctors. The ones who tell patients there is no hope, and nothing can be done to help them. But, please STOP putting down people with an open mind who try alternatives that restore health and save them from needless operations. Some of us are not afraid to step outside the little box above our neck. Rhonda






Foul!

"Naturopaths" are NOT medical doctors, have never been to medical school and do not have a medical license.

Do not be fooled! Real doctors have MD or DO on their business cards. "ND" does not mean a credentialed medical doctor.

It is possible for an MD or a DO (real medical doctors with real medical licenses) to take "naturopath" training and/or offer naturopathic type treatments so they can get on the unregulated gravy train of "alternative" treatments. Buyer beware.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Any drug that works very well does not make as much money as a drug that works not so well. ... Unfortunately vested interests in medicine are no different than vested interests in the energy business. ...

Please enlighten us Phooph. Which drugs fit into this category? You see, I don't believe you. I've heard this claim a lot but have never seen the list of great drugs "Big Pharma" has hidden away to keep from solving the ills of the world. In fact, what I see is quite the opposite. I see "Big Pharma" and a whole lot of medical schools wasting tens of millions of dollars testing trash like laeatril over and over to prove it's useless so those Mexican clinics stop ripping people off for laeatril cancer treatments that don't work. They're trying to help people by saving them money but there are so many who feel the need to make modern medicine the enemy while clinging to false hopes that their efforts fall on deaf ears. It's sad how educated we are and yet how easily we are duped.

There are also plenty of abuses in drug testing, I know. But mostly they're trying to make something look better than it really is rather than making a miracle drug look bad to prevent it coming to market.

So Phooph, please let us know.


... If you knew the history of medicine a bit better than you seem to you would see the centuries of vested interests trying to protect or establish turf at the expense of patients. We think, for instance, that antibiotics are something new in the 20th century, but they were used 2000 years ago and pushed out along with other herbal medicines by the new and "more modern" allopathic physicians who treated patients with toxic metal salts. ...

Yeah. Ask George Washington. So what makes you think I know nothing of the history of medicine? I'm a student of shamanism Phooph. I've studied not only the origins of medicine, but the origins of religion and they both go back to pot, mushrooms and beer. How 'bout that? Oh, and music. Let's not leave out music which has been a healing modality in nearly every culture since the beginning. I know about the Dark Ages and "The Burning Times." I know about The Church and its influence. I know about Bayer and how they got started. I know about how Eli Lilly and Co. gave us Dan Quayle for Vice President. Bet you didn't know that one. I probably know far more about medical history than most of the people reading this. That doesn't make me particularly special, but it does help me be a more educated consumer of medicine.


... Do you have any idea how many modern pharmaceuticals are based on what was once considered folk medicine?

Yes. Somewhere between 50 and 75% depending on how you broadly you define the connection. And the point is ... ?

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Jeff:

I've been reading your statements, wondering who you were. Thank you for the full disclosure behind your big words and commanding performance.
...

Really? What did you read between the lines about me that you found so enlightening?

Here's what I know about you: every post you make includes spam for your own favorite brand of alternative healing. I don't know much about your success rate, but I do know you have made some pretty wild claims in your posts. That aside, I have, myself, experienced "healings" at the hands of a skilled physical ... let's call him: manipulator. He's a DO, so he knows how the body is put together and how it works. He's focused his practice on manipulating body parts; especially joints and connective tissue, in such a way as to restore health and reduce pain. I had a shoulder that gave me chronic pain for 14 years. In about 15 minutes he made the pain disappear, never to return. He had a similar success treating an elbow that gave me pain for two years. One session: cured. A standard orthopedist wouldn't have had the knowledge to do what this man did. I do appreciate that physical manipulation at the hands of a skilled practitioner can produce amazing results.

Can a chiropractor treat measles by manipulation of the spine? No. Not successfully. And subluxations don't cause acne or asthma. And I don't think most chiropractors have the talents or training of my DO friend. Research has shown that massage is better at treating back pain than chiropractors. (Massage also bested acupuncture, pain killers and surgery. In fact, no treatment bested those three.)


... Yes, many of us THANK GOD that there are entities who offer atlernatives to modern Western science, like the Naturopaths and chinese herbalists. ...

Yes. It's good to seek God's help if you depend on those folks for your health care. You might need it.


.. Let's look at a few FACTS:

The NUMBER ONE KILLER in America is NOT heart disease or high blood pressure, but Iatragenic Disease, commonly known as Medical errors. ...

If you wish to pillory a profession, you should at least learn to spell the word. It's iatrogenic. I did a search on it the way you spelled it and found it listed that way on many "naturopath" websites. Why am I not surprised.

And you're wrong. I'll let you do the research. It's out there.

You are correct that there are an incredibly horrible number of people harmed during treatment in one way or another. Thing is, I don't think the published numbers are correct. I've lived 53 years with western medicine and I don't know a single person who was killed by it. How can that be? I know dozens of people that were killed by other things. Mostly cancer and AIDS. If it was the number three killer as listed in most authoritative websites (not number one), who are all these victims? I don't know of any. Wait, there is one! A talk show host named Pete Wilson died on the operating table last year. His heart stopped for some reason. Now, would his heart have stopped had he not gone in for that operation? We'll never know, but I'll bet he is a statistic. I know of another case that I think was closer to suicide by doctor. My grandmother got an operation she was almost certain would kill her. It did. She didn't want to live any longer. She would also be a statistic. So there's my two and I'm not sure either should be on the list. But it's still a very short list compared to all the other reasons people I know have died.


.. The NUMBER ONE suggestion a medical (real doctor ????) makes is to take tests, and more tests, and more tests, and then prescribe a drug that they
1. own stock in the producing pharmaceutical company of
2. receive kick-backs & benefits for perscribing x # of _______ within a designated time frame
3. KNOW that the drug will not "cure" anything, but instead create issues that will require more drugs to compensate for the bad side affects of this new drug, which MAY kill the person because their system will not handle the side affects mentioned in pica 4 print on the label inside the box ...

Rhonda, you're going off the deep end. You can't defend any of these statements. I have a doctor in my family and she's practiced for 25 years and never been given or even offered a kickback from a drug company. Most doctors do not own stock in pharmaceutical companies unless they are part of a mutual fund. You don't understand that doctors don't have time to play the stock market. Your point number three is also nonsense. Please.

It's not legal for a doctor to own all or part of a pharmacy.

What makes you think a doctor would go to school for 25 years to learn how to help and cure people and then try to make them sicker? Do you think doctors don't have enough patients? There are doctors with 2,000 person patient loads! These poor people don't have time to eat or sleep.

There aren't enough doctors practicing right now in the US. We are importing doctors from all over the world to meet our shortages. What the Hel makes you think doctors would want to make people sicker? They don't need more work. They need a vacation.


...
The Number TWO suggestion by REAL medical doctors is to cut an organ out (for $72,000 +) that will provide a little relief but shorten the expected life span of the individual mutilated by the "expertise" of the surgeon who performs barbaric atrocities to the human body for a "fee" which pays a portion of his malpractice insurance. ...

Well, I know a lot of doctors and I've never had one offer to remove my organs. Well, when I was a kid and too dumb to say no they yanked out my tonsils. Perhaps that is what you are thinking. But they don't routinely do that anymore. Nor hysterectomies. But they did used to.


... Shame on you for putting down members on this group who do not have an agenda or need to perform to your arrogant responses. ...

I feel no shame Rhonda. And who was I putting down? I called bullshit what it is. That's all.

And Rhonda, let's be honest: you do have an agenda and you're plenty arrogant. You are selling something. It appears to be your business because your spam is all over Wacco. (Well, 9 posts wherein each contains the same bottom line.) Perhaps you're just a true believer, but it sure looks like it's your business you're selling.


... Of course, the Upper Cervical doctor, according to your qualifications is not a REAL DOCTOR because he does not TEST, REMOVE organs or prescribe drugs). That means he is NOT a MD or DO, doesn't it? Montel goes on to say his MS disappeared after his atlas was corrected. How many modern REAL doctors have patients that say that? We have unlimited testimonies from people saying the same thing on our site.
...

Well, there is something we agree on completely. If he didn't go to medical school and get licensed, then no, he's not a real doctor. And he didn't make MS disappear. My father had MS Rhonda. That's something I know pretty well. My grandfather had it and so did my father's sister. I've seen it close up. About as close up as you can get. I'll bet you haven't. It's a degenerative nerve disease. It can't be cured by manipulation, regardless of testimonials.

If the disease process suddenly stopped an MS patient would still be disabled and probably for life because nerve tissue takes a very long time to repair itself if it ever does. Sorry. Your testimonial is just wrong.


... We advertise a movie, produced by patients who tried traditional medical treatment and found that their symptoms only grew worse. (www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com (https://www.uppercervicaladvocates.com)). "The Power of Upper Cervical" illustrates WHY correcting the atlas will remove the interference of the nerves causing the dis-ease of the body, and restore health to people. It was paid for by people ($200,000) who were told by REAL medical doctors that they would "just have to learn to live with their afflictions". (Ringing in the ears, Meinere's, IBS, and Fibromyalgia) ...

And now I refer back to my opening paragraphs. You are talking about some things that manipulation might help. OK? Let's see the research.


... But, you, Jeff should remain true to the REAL medical doctors. The ones who tell patients there is no hope, and nothing can be done to help them. But, please STOP putting down people with an open mind who try alternatives that restore health and save them from needless operations. Some of us are not afraid to step outside the little box above our neck. Rhonda

You don't know me Rhonda. I live much farther outside the box than most people I know. I also place a lot of trust in modern science and the scientific method. I am a skeptic of fly by night "alternative" practitioners because mostly they are up to no good even if they mean well.

I agree with you that there are a host of problems with modern medicine and its delivery. But there are thousands of trained professionals working hard to track down and eliminate those problems so they can deliver better care. And don't believe for a minute that doctors have any interest in making people sicker so they can have more patients. Show me a doctor and I'll show you a full schedule. Then don't need more sick people. There are more than plenty to go around.

Respectfully submitted,

-Jeff

[Dixon]

The NUMBER ONE KILLER in America is NOT heart disease or high blood pressure, but Iatragenic Disease, commonly known as Medical errors.

Actually, medical error is just one type of iatrogenic problem. Others include nosocomial infections (i.e., infections caught in hospitals), medication (including self-medication) errors, and adverse reactions to meds.

And the HIGHEST estimate of iatrogenic deaths I've seen has put them in 3rd place (after heart disease and cancer), not first place. Of course, this does not refute your point that iatrogenic problems are appropriately a REALLY big concern.

But Rhonda, let's be clear on the fact that 'allopathic" medicine is not the only source of iatrogenic illness/injury/death. People get ill or even die from herbs and diets prescribed by their cool-and-groovy New Age pseudoshamanistic practitioners. People die from wasting their time and money on SCAM (So-Called Alternative Medicine) instead of getting real medical treatment. People die because a con artist called a "psychic surgeon" pretends to pull chicken guts out of them and tells them they're healed, so they go home happy about their miracle cure only to die from the real tumor that was not removed.

And, more relevant to the current discussion, it appears that quite a few people get strokes, and some of them die, from chiropractic adjustments of their upper cervical vertebrae! It's unclear how many strokes are caused by such manipulation because often no one realizes that someone who's had a stroke had an upper cervical manipulation some time before which damaged an artery, eventually causing the stroke, but the emerging data is alarming. Of course, just like the "establishment" medical profession you hate so much, the chiropractic establishment tries to hide this issue. Here are a couple of links if you're interested in looking at them, Rhonda (and if you're not interested in looking at them, you have no business challenging Jeff or anyone else about THEIR openmindedness):
https://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_1_25/ai_68966521/pg_4
https://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/05/risks-related-to-manipulation-of.html
https://www.geocities.com/chiroskeptical/chiropracticrisks.html


The NUMBER ONE suggestion a medical (real doctor ????) makes is to take tests, and more tests, and more tests...Heaven forbid that we should use tests to determine what's really going on rather than assume that we know what the problem is due to our infallible wisdom, LOL!


...and then prescribe a drug that they
1. own stock in the producing pharmaceutical company of
2. receive kick-backs & benefits for perscribing x # of _______ within a designated time frame
3. KNOW that the drug will not "cure" anything, but instead create issues that will require more drugs to compensate for the bad side affects of this new drug, which MAY kill the person because their system will not handle the side affects mentioned in pica 4 print on the label inside the box.
The Number TWO suggestion by REAL medical doctors is to cut an organ out (for $72,000 +) that will provide a little relief but shorten the expected life span of the individual mutilated by the "expertise" of the surgeon who performs barbaric atrocities to the human body for a "fee" which pays a portion of his malpractice insurance. Rhonda, I've gotta agree that the medical establishment is REALLY fucked up, largely due to the distorting effects of money and self-interest (including corporate self-interest). In this country, due largely to rampant capitalism and corruption, we pay more than anyone for medical care, and receive less than most for our $$. So I'm with you on that, and the iatrogenic problem too. But your rap is exaggerated and one-sided. It ignores the good done by the caring folks at your local hospital or doctor's office, without whose efforts you or I might be dead right now. And it also seems to ignore the huge failings of alternative medicine, which shares the problems of establishment medicine and, on top of that, is shamefully hostile to rational critique of their claims, and insistent on making their claims in the absence of real evidence.

Case in point: I went to your Upper Cervical Advocates site, quite openmindedly looking to see if it included good evidence for its claims, and found...nothing but fluff. Testimonials, testimonials, testimonials, mixed with efforts to sell products and services based on the unfounded claims, and nowhere, not even in the links section, did I find a single controlled study.

I say "unfounded claims" because here's a basic fact that a first-year logic student could tell you: When it comes to establishing the efficacy of a treatment, testimonials (anecdotal evidence), don't mean shit! Even if we assume that all the anecdotes are true, you haven't ruled out other causes for the apparent "healings": coincidental healing due to other factors; nonspecific treatment effects such as placebo effect, effort justification effect, or please-the-therapist effect; fallacious interpretation of the experience due to common fallacies such as the confirmation bias or misunderstanding of probabilities, etc., etc. The only way we could honestly say with some confidence that your (or anybody's) favorite treatment modality (allopathic or alternative) works is if it's supported by a preponderance of properly designed studies, replicated by researchers who have no conflict of interest to bias them. Since nothing on your Upper Cervical site remotely approaches this standard, reasonable openminded people will reject your claims until good evidence is forthcoming, if ever, and their rejection of your claims is NOT evidence of closedmindedness.


If this sounds cynical, it probably is because you've sold your soul to an institution that is fallen victim to the pharmaceutical world and GREED under the guise of "helping people".Translation: "If you don't accept my claims on the basis of crappy evidence, it's because you're part of The Conspiracy."


IF YOU WANT to know the truth and really help people, then read the reports of these people who have tried alternative approaches to health and gotten over their dibilitating illnesses. Rhonda, I urge you to educate yourself about the limitations of anecdotal evidence before you further embarrass yourself with statements like this.


Their desire is to help others without expecting a financial gain... But note that the website that collects and disseminates these peoples' anecdotes is seeking financial gain through sales of videos, books, "medical" services, etc.--just like dat ol' debbil, the allopathic establishment, is seeking financial gain.


Shame on you for putting down members on this group who do not have an agenda or need to perform to your arrogant responses.Translation: "Shame on you for having the temerity to disagree with us and for demanding good evidence for the claims underlying our money-making schemes."

(She goes on with 3 more paragraphs of anecdotes, apparently on the fallacious assumption that anecdotal evidence makes her point.)


I will post a research project from an Upper Cervical doctor...
Ah, research! I look forward to reading it. After all, there may be something to this stuff--who knows? Please make sure to include a description of the research design (sample size, control groups, double-blind features, etc.)


But, please STOP putting down people with an open mind... I'm inclined to assume that "people with an open mind" means people who agree with you, but I don't wanna unfairly assume that you're not openminded, so I'll just ask: Are you open to the possibility that you're mistaken about some of your beliefs (such as the Upper Cervical thang) and that the evidence you adduce for your beliefs is insufficient?


Some of us are not afraid to step outside the little box above our neck. BY "little box above our neck" do you mean your head? Are you out of your head, Rhonda? Will being out of my head allow me to believe the stuff you believe?

Thanks for listening;

Dixon

[Sylph]

I am curious to know if this is what 'upper cervical adjustment' looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn3Q9LlR1gE&feature=related
Or is it more like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpufeLnfo8&feature=related

If it's like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAVxOFftqxg&feature=related
Then Dixon is absolutely right on the money. Do not let anyone 'crack' your neck. There is a small but unnecessary risk of stroke from the rotatory neck manipulation. Most chiropractors really want to do this but gentle manipulation is safer than the high velocity low amplitude thrust of the typical 'adjustment'.

This is a tragic result of an adjustment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHX7m09OZ8E

[phooph]

It looks like this thread has been hijacked. Maybe we should start another.

Meanwhile:

I can bury you in documents. How much would you like?
First, read this document on the FDA website regarding deaths from medical errors (https://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/500_err.html) and understand that is is watered down from the original report from the National Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/etc/notebook.html
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/hazard/
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/politics/
https://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/92264/has_big_pharma_corruption_suppressed_effective_treatment_options/
https://www.revcom.us/a/118/cancer-corresp-en.html

A board certified oncologist in Italy is having success treating cancer with baking soda (https://altered-states.net/barry/newsletter339/bicarbonateofsoda.htm).

Read the research history on this plant, (https://www.rain-tree.com/graviola.htm) a relative of the paw paw, that has been found to kill cancer cells but stays in the lab (or on the shelves of the health food store) because no patentable form can be created.

Let me know when you've read all that and I will supply you with the next batch.

Phooph



Please enlighten us Phooph. Which drugs fit into this category? You see, I don't believe you. I've heard this claim a lot but have never seen the list of great drugs "Big Pharma" has hidden away to keep from solving the ills of the world. In fact, what I see is quite the opposite. I see "Big Pharma" and a whole lot of medical schools wasting tens of millions of dollars testing trash like laeatril over and over to prove it's useless so those Mexican clinics stop ripping people off for laeatril cancer treatments that don't work. They're trying to help people by saving them money but there are so many who feel the need to make modern medicine the enemy while clinging to false hopes that their efforts fall on deaf ears. It's sad how educated we are and yet how easily we are duped.

There are also plenty of abuses in drug testing, I know. But mostly they're trying to make something look better than it really is rather than making a miracle drug look bad to prevent it coming to market.

So Phooph, please let us know.



Yeah. Ask George Washington. So what makes you think I know nothing of the history of medicine? I'm a student of shamanism Phooph. I've studied not only the origins of medicine, but the origins of religion and they both go back to pot, mushrooms and beer. How 'bout that? Oh, and music. Let's not leave out music which has been a healing modality in nearly every culture since the beginning. I know about the Dark Ages and "The Burning Times." I know about The Church and its influence. I know about Bayer and how they got started. I know about how Eli Lilly and Co. gave us Dan Quayle for Vice President. Bet you didn't know that one. I probably know far more about medical history than most of the people reading this. That doesn't make me particularly special, but it does help me be a more educated consumer of medicine.



Yes. Somewhere between 50 and 75% depending on how you broadly you define the connection. And the point is ... ?

-Jeff

[phooph]

I've lived 53 years with western medicine and I don't know a single person who was killed by it. How can that be? I know dozens of people that were killed by other things. Mostly cancer and AIDS. If it was the number three killer as listed in most authoritative websites (not number one), who are all these victims? I don't know of any. Wait, there is one! A talk show host named Pete Wilson died on the operating table last year. His heart stopped for some reason. Now, would his heart have stopped had he not gone in for that operation? We'll never know, but I'll bet he is a statistic. I know of another case that I think was closer to suicide by doctor. My grandmother got an operation she was almost certain would kill her. It did. She didn't want to live any longer. She would also be a statistic. So there's my two and I'm not sure either should be on the list. But it's still a very short list compared to all the other reasons people I know have died.

My mother died of an iatrogenic disease. She was one of many who died of the same treatment. Because the deaths were delayed it took a long time for the medical community to recognize they were killing people. When I have gone to a doctor for an initial exam I would be asked the cause of death of my parents. Years ago when I said my mother died of an iatrogenic disease I would be asked which kind and the doctors would say, "Oh, yes, we learned about that in medical school." In the last 15 years or so when I go to younger doctors their response is, "What's an iatrogenic disease?" When I give them the definition and tell them what killed my mother, they act uncomfortable and sometimes skeptical, as if I am some sort of paranoid nut. I think doctors are not being taught that their profession is capable of mistakes.

[Braggi]

It looks like this thread has been hijacked. Maybe we should start another.
...

So should Waccobb only be safe for untested, unsupported, possibly dangerous or even fatal "alternative" treatment suggestions and should actual scientifically supported medical suggestions be banned? Should everyone's opinion be allowed without rebuttal? How should these threads be controlled Phooph? Do you want to approve every post? What are you talking about?


... I can bury you in documents. How much would you like? ...

Phooph, nobody is arguing with you that there are problems with the medical establishment. Keep your documents. We agree.

However, how about the problems with "alternative" treatments? As Dixon pointed out, there are many. And I don't really believe there is such a thing as "alternative." There are treatments that have proven to help, some that have been proven not to help, and some that need more study. Real medicine embraces new wisdom. That's the beauty of science. That's what open mindedness is. Science.


... A board certified oncologist in Italy is having success treating cancer with baking soda (https://altered-states.net/barry/newsletter339/bicarbonateofsoda.htm). ...

Now he should do some studies. Unfortunately, his approach isn't new and hasn't borne fruit in the past. The Ph "theory" looks good on paper (or on screen) but the fact is that the human body guards its Ph balance very carefully whether a person is healthy or chronically ill. A very slight variation causes death. I hope your Roman (interesting that the site doesn't even capitalize the word) oncologist has success and publishes his results. How's that for open mindedness?



I ... Read the research history on this plant, (https://www.rain-tree.com/graviola.htm) a relative of the paw paw, that has been found to kill cancer cells but stays in the lab (or on the shelves of the health food store) because no patentable form can be created. ...

I'll just pick one misleading if not entirely false statement from that: (Naturally-occurring plant chemicals cannot be patented.)

Actually, one can patent almost anything including human cells, amazingly enough. Everything from extraction methods to compounding methods to delivery systems to novel packaging can be patented. If a medicine is found to be useful and generally safe, it's on store shelves.

There is currently a rash of tropical berry products flowing into "health food" stores and sold through MLM systems. There are thousands of plants that fit into the category of "traditional herbal treatments." Medical science is hamstrung by the sheer volume of plants that need to be studied. It costs tens of millions of $$ just to study a single compound from a plant and most such plants contain dozens of compounds that are promising. Sadly, most of them don't pan out. Most of the tropical berries, for instance, are no better than grape juice or cranberry juice which are already widely available.

Just come up with the money and your plant of choice will be studied.

Now, come up with the list of drugs that are "miracle cures" that "Big Pharma" has studied, proven to work, and have buried. That was your claim. Please post the list.

-Jeff

[Sciguy]

<b>From Sciguy<br>
Observing from the sidelines <b><p>

I just want to extend my deep thanks to posters including Jeff, Dixon and Sylph (apologies if I missed anyone else) and tell Rhonda 741 she should be ashamed of herself for promoting ignorance so vehemently.

Jeff et al have posted literate, thoughtful, scientifically based, erudite criticisms of the claims of magical effects of so-called alternative medicine and have pointed out the importance of accuracy and scientific studies. I watched the Youtube videos linked by Sylph about chiropractic treatments and the tragedies it has caused by tearing carotid arteries during neck "readjustments". I had no ideas such outcomes were possible. I had only heard of spinal cord injuries.

Jeff had it right on. Testimonies and anecdotes may suggest starting points for studies but they prove nothing. The strongest impression I have taken away from listening to naturpaths, homeopaths, chiropracters, hypnotists, activated water sellers, Ayurvedic practitioners and Chinese medical theorists is that they are repelled by the concept of scientific study. They invent all manner of imaginary body parts and systems (chi, meridians, spurious connections to liver and kidneys, ions, elecric charges) which no one can find or demonstrate but they clearly have no interest in studying or testing their theories. I wonder if there are alternative schools of these alternative medicines who DO welcome scientific studies. I have not heard their voices anywhere. I hear trained medical personnel on KPFA who constantly report on and rely on good studies to support their main recommendations but as soon as they delve into "alternative" medical boasts, they ask for no supporting studies but naively accept any claim on face value. The "alternative" boosters have become used to getting a free ride from naive Calfornians. Jeff et al's insistence on the basic importance of double blind studies for ALL claims is refreshing, and strongly needed to squelch the baseless claims of the "alternative medicine" community who, I think, do serious harm to sick people, by pretending to have cures which no study supports. Western medicine cannot be contrasted to any other kind of medicine because Western medicine, as a science, necessarily accepts, and welcomes in, any treatment which is demonstrably effective. In a world that understood scientific thinking, there would be no such thing as alternative medicine, only medicine, and only Western medicine is openminded enough to approach that ideal.

Thanks again Jeff, Dixon, Sylph et al <p><hr>

Paul (Sciguy)


Jeff:

I've been reading your statements, wondering who you were. Thank you for the full disclosure behind your big words and commanding performance.

Yes, many of us THANK GOD that there are entities who offer atlernatives to modern Western science, like the Naturopaths and chinese herbalists. Let's look at a few FACTS:

The NUMBER ONE KILLER in America is NOT heart disease or high blood pressure, but Iatragenic Disease, commonly known as Medical errors. The number of people who die EVERY DAY from medical related incidence or error is the equivalent to 6 (SIX) jumbo jets crashing and killing everyone aboard. THAT Happens EVERY DAY!!!!!! That is outrageous!

The NUMBER ONE suggestion a medical (real doctor ????) makes is to take tests, and more tests, and more tests, and then prescribe a drug that they
1. own stock in the producing pharmaceutical company of
2. receive kick-backs & benefits for perscribing x # of _______ within a designated time frame
3. KNOW that the drug will not "cure" anything, but instead create issues that will require more drugs to compensate for the bad side affects of this new drug, which MAY kill the person because their system will not handle the side affects mentioned in pica 4 print on the label inside the box

The Number TWO suggestion by REAL medical doctors is to cut an organ out (for $72,000 +) that will provide a little relief but shorten the expected life span of the individual mutilated by the "expertise" of the surgeon who performs barbaric atrocities to the human body for a "fee" which pays a portion of his malpractice insurance.

If this sounds cynical, it probably is because you've sold your soul to an institution that is fallen victim to the pharmaceutical world and GREED under the guise of "helping people".

IF YOU WANT to know the truth and really help people, then read the reports of these people who have tried alternative approaches to health and gotten over their dibilitating illnesses. Their desire is to help others without expecting a financial gain or showing their excellent knowledge base. Shame on you for putting down members on this group who do not have an agenda or need to perform to your arrogant responses.

We show a video on our webiste (www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com (https://www.uppercervicaladvocates.com/)) of Montel Williams being referred to an Upper Cervical Doctor, by his REAL medical doctor. Of course, the Upper Cervical doctor, according to your qualifications is not a REAL DOCTOR because he does not TEST, REMOVE organs or prescribe drugs). That means he is NOT a MD or DO, doesn't it? Montel goes on to say his MS disappeared after his atlas was corrected. How many modern REAL doctors have patients that say that? We have unlimited testimonies from people saying the same thing on our site.

We advertise a movie, produced by patients who tried traditional medical treatment and found that their symptoms only grew worse. (www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com (https://www.uppercervicaladvocates.com)). "The Power of Upper Cervical" illustrates WHY correcting the atlas will remove the interference of the nerves causing the dis-ease of the body, and restore health to people. It was paid for by people ($200,000) who were told by REAL medical doctors that they would "just have to learn to live with their afflictions". (Ringing in the ears, Meinere's, IBS, and Fibromyalgia)

In the movie, an Upper Cervical doctor shares the story of a REAL medical doctor who admitted that he could not refer patients to the Upper Cervical doctor because of the repudiation from his peers. He had experienced a removal of impotency following 15 years of REAL doctor tests and medical perscriptions. His wife no longer has migraine headaches, and his teenage daughter has regular cycles after their atlas corrections. We could go on and on. Maybe you should open your educated mind to see what else is out there.

I will post a research project from an Upper Cervical doctor who has spoken twice in Prauge, by invitation from the European medical group, about 139 Meinere's patients he's seen who no longer have tinnitutus (ringing in the ears), volitile vomiting episodes, headaches or dizziness. 130 or the 139 patients had the same misalignment of the atlas and had their atlas corrected identically.

But, you, Jeff should remain true to the REAL medical doctors. The ones who tell patients there is no hope, and nothing can be done to help them. But, please STOP putting down people with an open mind who try alternatives that restore health and save them from needless operations. Some of us are not afraid to step outside the little box above our neck. Rhonda

[Valley Oak]

This is one of the most interesting and productive threads I've ever read on Wacco since I first subscribed to the list about four or five years ago! (and back then it was merely another Yahoo group!)

I just love pulling down the pants on pseudoscience and bogus medicine. It's always been around and probably always will be. I'm wondering what the folks here think about Reiki? Reiki has become one of the biggest alternative medicine fads in recent years and it always stunk like rotten fish to me.

I really appreciate Sciguy's post, especially his pointing out that these 'healers' (who thrive in Sonoma County because of the alternative culture here), whether they believe it or not, are taking advantage of unsuspecting folks who are desperate in their hour of need. The victims are suffering from an illness that either is too expensive to treat or, for which there is no known cure, and they end up poorer and more desperate as a result of seeking out alternatives.

Edward



From Sciguy

Observing from the sidelines

I just want to extend my deep thanks to posters including Jeff, Dixon and Sylph (apologies if I missed anyone else) and tell Rhonda 741 she should be ashamed of herself for promoting ignorance so vehemently.

Jeff et al have posted literate, thoughtful, scientifically based, erudite criticisms of the claims of magical effects of so-called alternative medicine and have pointed out the importance of accuracy and scientific studies. I watched the Youtube videos linked by Sylph about chiropractic treatments and the tragedies it has caused by tearing carotid arteries during neck "readjustments". I had no ideas such outcomes were possible. I had only heard of spinal cord injuries.

Jeff had it right on. Testimonies and anecdotes may suggest starting points for studies but they prove nothing. The strongest impression I have taken away from listening to naturpaths, homeopaths, chiropracters, hypnotists, activated water sellers, Ayurvedic practitioners and Chinese medical theorists is that they are repelled by the concept of scientific study. They invent all manner of imaginary body parts and systems (chi, meridians, spurious connections to liver and kidneys, ions, elecric charges) which no one can find or demonstrate but they clearly have no interest in studying or testing their theories. I wonder if there are alternative schools of these alternative medicines who DO welcome scientific studies. I have not heard their voices anywhere. I hear trained medical personnel on KPFA who constantly report on and rely on good studies to support their main recommendations but as soon as they delve into "alternative" medical boasts, they ask for no supporting studies but naively accept any claim on face value. The "alternative" boosters have become used to getting a free ride from naive Calfornians. Jeff et al's insistence on the basic importance of double blind studies for ALL claims is refreshing, and strongly needed to squelch the baseless claims of the "alternative medicine" community who, I think, do serious harm to sick people, by pretending to have cures which no study supports. Western medicine cannot be contrasted to any other kind of medicine because Western medicine, as a science, necessarily accepts, and welcomes in, any treatment which is demonstrably effective. In a world that understood scientific thinking, there would be no such thing as alternative medicine, only medicine, and only Western medicine is openminded enough to approach that ideal.

Thanks again Jeff, Dixon, Sylph et al

<hr>

Paul (Sciguy)

[Braggi]

... I'm wondering what the folks here think about Reiki? Reiki has become one of the biggest alternative medicine fads in recent years and it always stunk like rotten fish to me. ...

It's always good to read up: https://www.reiki.org/currenttopics/history/truehist.html

This is just for you, Edward: "Was Jesus a Reiki Master?" https://www.reiki.org/reikinews/reikin16.html

I usually try to go easy on such therapies because if it feels good it's probably doing something good for you even if that something is quite minor. I think it's a shame if poor people spend a large percentage of their money for such treatments and more than anything, that's why I post on these topics.

Massage appears in the studies to be the most effective "hands on healing" method. That makes sense since it's actually doing something. Reiki is pretty weird since it's "hands off healing." Massage without touching? Yup, weird, and not in a good way in my mind. It's not surprising this comes from Japan which has about the most touch phobic culture on Earth. I lot of strange stuff comes from there including strange religions.

I'm skeptical of just about everything from Japan except machinery. They do industry proud. I'm a big fan of Okuma CNC machine tools. Oops, off topic!

-Jeff

[Malene]

Wow the sniping on this thread is getting truly amazing! *head shaking*, and unattractive.

Phooh I am really sorry to hear about your Mothers death at the hand of doctors. I am sure that remains a big grief for you. My Grandmother died from overprescribing medications and getting a bleeding ulcer. She truly did not need all those medications. Meds to go to sleep, and meds to wake up - you get the picture. As a kid that was a very big grief for me. I remain distant from doctors as much as I can. However, I realize that when it comes to actually first finding out exactly what is going on in the body the MD type doctors has several legs up. They have the scanning devices and the laboratories to actually really find out whats going on. Before any treatment can be found alternative or traditional we need to know what exactly we are treating. For that reason when needed the MD is my first stop. I might not take their preferred form of treatment - then again I might. It all depends.

Any diagnosis warrants further research on my own into possible side effects of western medicine, as well as possible alternative treatments and how efficient they might be.

I love chiropractic treatments, and will happily continue to allow DC's to adjust me - including my neck. I am sure there are possible unwanted effects with this treatment -as there are with all efficient treatments. I would love to know what the numbers are though. How often does a chiropractic adjustment go wrong? My bet is a heck of a lot less than most treatments. If someone can show me in tests - not anecdotal evidence as was shown on utube - that chiropractic has a high rate of risk then I will definitely factor it in to my decisions. Chiropractic has scientifically shown significant improvement for people with movement issues. That does not mean that chiropractic will cure all the ills of the world. Of course not - but a back ache, a pain in the side when trying to breathe (absent recent injury is probably a rib out of allignment), or restricted movement in any joint warrants a trip to the DC.

Incidentally the chiropractors did work very hard to sciencitifically prove their modality of healing and I for one deeply appreciated it.

Acupuncture has actually also been scientifically studied and shown some promising results. Especially to lower pain. In some ways the efficacy of acupuncture has not been scientifically proven. Some of it because it hasnt been tested, and some of the tested has come out either inconclusive or negative to acupuncture. Other scientific tests has shown positive results. In short - this healing modality needs further testing before it is dismissed. An inconclusive test does not mean that acupuncture doesnt work - it just means we dont know yet if it works.

Until we have all the needed scientific data to tell us exactly how, when and where acupuncture works each individual and their practitioner will need to use common sense when they use this form of healing.

I think acupuncture and Chinese healing is an incredibly rich form of healing with many nuances. We would do well to learn what we can from it, and treat it with respect. It is possible that some aspects of acupuncture either doesnt work or are based on superstition. That doesnt mean there arent important nuggets of wisdom in the system that we need to take with us.

The anecdotal evidence that acupuncture works is overwhelmingly strong - and it has had 4000 years to gather those anecdotes, to grow and to refine itself.

Lets be honest also and say that occassionally western medicine uses treatments that have not been completely proven. Examples could be off-label prescribing, or medication still being tested. I was given a medication not that long ago, and when I looked it up it was off-label prescribing - and the doctor didnt even tell me that. Still worked the way I wanted it to though. Not that long ago there was a kid in the news who sued to be allowed to take medication that had not been fully proven because it was his only chance. The courts agreed with him - even if not proven the medication in question was better than no chance at all. The drug company had ruled him out of the clinical trial because his disease was too advanced.

Speaking of which - there are many alternative treatment forms that does work - even if not scientifically proven. There are herbs that noone has had the finances or inclination to scientifically prove works - they might still work. In those cases all we have is anecdotal evidence to guide us. St. Johns wort has been extensively scientifically tested in Germany, but the US is too arrogant to be respectful of those tests. Many other herbs simply hasnt been tested so we have no scientific clue if they work or not. If on a given night my choice is between a strong prescription drug or catnip tea to put me to sleep - I choose the catnip tea every time. I dont give a rats patootie if its been tested or proven or not. Before I settled with catnip tea I did extensive research into possible side effects, dosages, and anecdotal evidence that it worked. Since that was the only evidence I had.

There are also alternative treatments that are nothing but faith based. They "only" have a placebo effect. If the placebo effect actually is positive then I wont argue with it.

It is however important for all alternative treatments to be honest and realistic in their claims. IE - it is possible for someone to pray themselves to death if they are waiting for a miracle cure for a deadly disease. It should be required that those recommending only prayer are honest enough to say "it doesnt work every time". And to further refrain from blaming those patients for whom it doesnt work.

The problem with a lot of alternative treatment practitioners lie in a lack of honesty. Someone who claims "all you need is faith and an openness to change to heal" is taking a gigantic risk. They also easily let themselves off the hook. If there is no improvement in the patient then the practitioner can always claim its the clients own fault for not changing. This switch and bait is quite common in the alternative market, its damaging and dangerous and it is a tactic often being used by the most damaging of cults.

Another problem in the alternative sector is extreme claims. Chiropractic has been proven to improve movement - but it wont cure cancer. Visualization techniques has been proven to lower blood pressure and significantly lower stress. There is no evidence it will make you rich or cure diabetes. I could go on.

Science is a very young discipline. It is a worthy discipline, but not the only worthy discipline, and as with all young children it can sometimes learn from its elders. When science is elevated to a religion then it too brings problems.

One problem of those focusing exclusively on science is the arrogance to say that if it hasnt been fully proved it doesnt work. As long as something hasnt been scientifically proven it might work, and it might not. Another problem is when it becomes "fun" to denigrate other people's beliefs and experiences - based on "science".

Anyways to finish out a long post. We will get the best results if traditional western medicine and science works together with more alternative treatment forms to get the most positive results.

Malene

[RichT]

Yes. It's good to seek God's help if you depend on those folks for your health care. You might need it.

-Jeff
Faith healers can make for some very entertaining television, especially when stoned. I remember watching the good Rev. Angely (in another lifetime) on late night TV. The guy was hilarious; a hard whack on the temple to knock folks to the floor where they went into convulsions. Add Speaking in Tongues (incoherent babbling) and you have one hell of a show.

[Sylph]

I love chiropractic treatments, and will happily continue to allow DC's to adjust me - including my neck. I am sure there are possible unwanted effects with this treatment -as there are with all efficient treatments. I would love to know what the numbers are though. How often does a chiropractic adjustment go wrong? My bet is a heck of a lot less than most treatments. If someone can show me in tests - not anecdotal evidence as was shown on utube - that chiropractic has a high rate of risk then I will definitely factor it in to my decisions. Chiropractic has scientifically shown significant improvement for people with movement issues. That does not mean that chiropractic will cure all the ills of the world. Of course not - but a back ache, a pain in the side when trying to breathe (absent recent injury is probably a rib out of allignment), or restricted movement in any joint warrants a trip to the DC.

Malene, I really appreciate your well-thought out response. I am a 'chiro-skeptic' but I have friends and family that have been helped with pain issues. I get irked by the 'cure all ills' advertisements that many chiropractors make. Chiropractors are an extremely diverse group of practitioners and it's tricky to find one who is scientific and reasonable in their claims.
The risk of stroke is said to be very small, from 1 in 40,000 to 1 a million, but the actual number is unknown:
Prof Ernst (https://www.waccobb.net/wiki/Edzard_Ernst) surveyed neurologists in Britain for cases of serious neurological complications occurring within 24 hours of cervical spinal manipulation by various types of practitioners; 35 cases had been seen by the 24 neurologists who responded, but none of the cases had been reported. He concluded that underreporting was close to 100%, rendering estimates "nonsensical." He therefore suggested that "clinicians might tell their patients to adopt a cautious approach and avoid the type of spinal manipulation for which the risk seems greatest: forceful manipulation of the upper spine with a rotational element."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_manipulation#Risks_of_upper_cervical_manipulation

Still and all, you probably run a much greater risk driving to the chiropractor's office than actually getting a stroke. But if you really are not having a pain issue like severe neck pain, than why get your neck 'cracked'? What's the point? I was curious about the technique used by the chiropractors you were recommending. I couldn't tell from the website.

[Malene]

Hello Sylph,

I was just thinking about this actually. Getting an accurate number of those specifically having a stroke because of chiropractic would be hard, and the research would take some effort to design.

If 35 people have a stroke within 24 hours of getting an adjustment then it has to be proven that they had the stroke because of the adjustment, and not for other reasons. IE - is it possible they would have had the stroke even without the adjustment?

I think it would take a large cross section of the general public to find the amount of people that have a stroke in a given 24 hour period, and then a cross section of those receiving adjustments to check if there is a higher, lower or same amount of strokes.

It doesnt sound like that study has been done yet - so - its a "we dont know if chiropractic might have a risk of causing strokes". There is anecdotal evidence it might - but as has been pointed out thats not definitive proof.

I tend to at least listen to and factor in anecdotal evidence though, even as I understand its not true evidence.

Some of the more extreme claims of healing through chiropractic comes from the acknowledgement that through an adjustment there is less pressure on the nerves coming out from the spine and that can have a positive effect on a lot of things like for instance immune system.

I think its true it can have a positive effect on the body overall - but that makes it a far cry from some of the claims of healing that has been made. Most DC's I know have an experience that adjustment does more than eliminate back pain, but they refrain from making outlandish and unsubstantiated claims.

Personally I love the experience of moving freer and feeling better after a complete adjustment. Even if there is a little bit of misallignment it feels better after an adjustment. For that reason I have freely allowed CD's to do their work including in my neck.

I also remember it was more uncomfortable the first couple of times having my neck adjusted, mainly because I wouldnt relax and let them have my head. Now i look forward to it, and it isnt even sore when they do it.

A good adjustment can immediately eliminate headaches for instance. It has done that for me more than once.

If nothing feels like it is "out" in my neck, no - then there is no reason to adjust it. Most DC's understand that.

I have had CD's use a variety of approaches to adjustment. From the very gentle manipulations to the snap, crackle, pop. I dont really care which one they use. Although for those who are tense about getting an adjustment - by all means find someone who does it gently.

This is actually the first time I hear there might be a risk of stroke associated with chiropractic. It makes me a little sad that not one of the DC's I have gone to have told me. I guess as yet those claims are too unsubstantiated to be included in mandatory disclaimers. It wont change how I do it though - just because it is my experience those adjustments does me good.

As a side note there are situations when massage works better for back or neck pain than chiropractic. In some situations chiropractic gives a fast relief from pain, but doesnt hold up. That can potentially be because some muscles can pull at the vertebrae when they are overly tense. Examples of this are the psoas muscle pulling at the vertebrae in the lower back, or the quadratus lumborum pulling the hip up on one side, making one leg shorter than the other. Chiropractic will adjust the things that are out right now, but if the muscles remain tense then they will pull those bones out again.

In my experience the best chiropractors work together with massage therapists for maximum results.

Anyways - I am rambling - I think I answered your question though.

Malene




Malene, I really appreciate your well-thought out response. I am a 'chiro-skeptic' but I have friends and family that have been helped with pain issues. I get irked by the 'cure all ills' advertisements that many chiropractors make. Chiropractors are an extremely diverse group of practitioners and it's tricky to find one who is scientific and reasonable in their claims.
The risk of stroke is said to be very small, from 1 in 40,000 to 1 a million, but the actual number is unknown:
Prof Ernst (https://www.waccobb.net/wiki/Edzard_Ernst) surveyed neurologists in Britain for cases of serious neurological complications occurring within 24 hours of cervical spinal manipulation by various types of practitioners; 35 cases had been seen by the 24 neurologists who responded, but none of the cases had been reported. He concluded that underreporting was close to 100%, rendering estimates "nonsensical." He therefore suggested that "clinicians might tell their patients to adopt a cautious approach and avoid the type of spinal manipulation for which the risk seems greatest: forceful manipulation of the upper spine with a rotational element."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_manipulation#Risks_of_upper_cervical_manipulation

Still and all, you probably run a much greater risk driving to the chiropractor's office than actually getting a stroke. But if you really are not having a pain issue like severe neck pain, than why get your neck 'cracked'? What's the point? I was curious about the technique used by the chiropractors you were recommending. I couldn't tell from the website.

[Sylph]

Hello Sylph,

[QUOTE]
If 35 people have a stroke within 24 hours of getting an adjustment then it has to be proven that they had the stroke because of the adjustment, and not for other reasons. IE - is it possible they would have had the stroke even without the adjustment?

I think it would take a large cross section of the general public to find the amount of people that have a stroke in a given 24 hour period, and then a cross section of those receiving adjustments to check if there is a higher, lower or same amount of strokes.


There actually are several studies out there trying to tease out
whether the association of chiropractic visits and stroke is causal or coincidence. The studies are conducted because many neurologists have had stroke patients who have just come from their chiropractor:

Rothwell
https://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/5/1054 (https://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/5/1054)
Analysis of Cassidy study
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=170
Web.MD article
https://www.webmd.com/news/20000522/stroke-risks-from-spinal-manipulation-unknown?page=2 (https://www.webmd.com/news/20000522/stroke-risks-from-spinal-manipulation-unknown?page=2)
Smith, UCSF study
https://www.aan.com/press/index.cfm?fuseaction=release.view&release=33 (https://www.aan.com/press/index.cfm?fuseaction=release.view&release=33)

[rhonda741]

"All truth goes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is viloently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Yes...it is, isn't it! This is rhonda 741 posting TRUTH in stage 1 & 2 again.

Sorry to be behind, I've been listening to people share their stories today. One was from a Chiropractic Student at Northwestern University in Portland. Her neck was "adjusted" by a chiropractic student in class and she expereienced debilitating events. None of the chiropractic staff could help, so they sent her to a MD. He and his tests could not improve her health, or relieve the pain.

Finally, someone sent her to an Upper Cervical Specialist, which is a Chiropractor trained as a specialist, to work on the atlas/axis area. Short story.....her ailments are all gone. She called asking if she could speak at an upcoming convention of UC DC's and advocates because the survey she sent out at her school reflects that 70% of the students now want to learn about a technique THEY DID NOT KNOW EXISTED and were NEVER told about at their chiropractic school.

Moral: What you don't know can hurt you.

TRUTH: In Western Medicine (medi-sin) you can have an unlimited number of specialties. Jeff has repeatedly pointed some of these out. In Dental there are 5 major specialities. BUT, within Chiropractic, it is against the law to profess a specialty! This makes it impossible for the GP to know that there is something in Chiropractic that can actually relieve the nerve pressure and allow the body to heal itself. MODERN MEDICINE would NEVER acknowledge our body could heal itself! They would be out of a job!

True fact, Jeff: There is a certain misalignment that contributes to depression, and mental disorders. IN FACT, in the 1940's, the IA state sanitorium for the insane, had a 32% recovery rate of inmates, excuse me, patients, who were cured enough to leave. (read the history, THIS IS A FACT!!!)
Dr. BJ Palmer took the mental patients from the IA state sanitorium who had not been helped, and had a 62% recovery rate. He did not use drugs, electric stimulation, phyco-therapy or labotomy procedures. (Read the history on THIS western medical procedure! FACT: The founder was callous and uncaring when someone he jabbed an icepick into their brain would die on the table during his demonstrations.)

Anyway, point is, we know what Dr. BJ Palmer did because he recorded his work and results in the Green Book volumes he produced through Palmer College. We KNOW he reverted to the Upper Cervical viewpoint, because in Vol 18 he wrote about the "Subluxation Specific which is correcting the atlas." He stated in one of his research papers, which are detailed in the backs of many of his books, that 79% of all subluxations were in the c1c2 area, and the balance of problems could be fixed through alternative corrections.

His last 12 books were a plea to general chiropractors to change their course and specilize in Upper Cervical analysis. They did not, and in the 1980's a Western Medicine agenda resulted claiming Chiropractors were Quacks. (Read the facts on quackery lawsuits; Stephen Barrett, MD who called chiropractors quacks is now defending a libel lawsuit and has been force to move twice because of his unethical and unfounded accusations. Be prepared to find the Presbyterian Hosp Quackery lawsuit:
Lawsuit alleges testing fraud at Presbyterian Hospital (https://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2008/01/lawsuit-alleges-testing-fraud-at.html)

One more for the legal system...real diagnosing or a matter of money? Not enough of a story here to speculate...BD

Eleven women have filed a lawsuit against Dallas' Presbyterian Hospital, alleging fraud on the part of doctors who allegedly recommended treatment for conditions they did not have.
It is the second lawsuit to make such allegations; the first was filed by five women in May 2007. "It didn't make a bit of difference what the tests showed," said attorney Marty Rose of Rose Walker LLP, who represents the plaintiffs. "They were just going to tell each of the women the same thing and keep billing them until they got wise or until their deductibles ran out."
Each of the women came to the hospital seeking medical assistance for eating disorders. The group claims doctors at the hospital advised them to submit to a series of tests that determined they had suffered heart damage as result of their disorders."


But, of course, this is not reflective of the modern Western Medicine that is being defended is it?




Some of you MD lovers need to review your history. The first schools for DO's were taught by Chiropractors who wanted to combine the science with western medicine. That was a failure. It opened the door for DO's and general chiropractors to manipulate the neck without precision x-rays, specific analysis, AND more importantly, specific corrections. Although, as you shared, Jeff, sometimes their guess work results in a positive change. The danger lies in the fact that it was not a specific correction, but a guess. We've met many people who suffer tinnitutus following manipulations like these form DO's and chiropractors, and massage therapists who fool with sacral massage guess work.



I'm glad you opened the door for me to educate people about the truth. Over 50 chiropractors who practised Upper Cervical work were sent to JAIL
by jealous medical practioners because the patients got well! Check the history.....this is true, not Spam!

In 1970, a job census was sent out listing Chiropractic as one of the best job opportunities in the US. MANY people entered the field who were not concerned with the extra time necessary to learn the Upper Cervical techniques that get people well. This corrupted the profession with people who sought money not the principle of chiropractic.

FACT: The NUCCA Upper Cervical chiropractic group released a blind study of 50 patients in March proving that aligning the atlas would lower blood pressure. The AMA is working with this same group to do another study as we speak. FACT!!! <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="760"><tbody><tr valign="top"> <td background="https://images.medscape.com/pi/global/ornaments/left-bgtile.gif" width="20">
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https://images.medscape.com/pi/global/icons/icon-print.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/viewarticle/553751_print)Printer-Friendly (https://www.waccobb.net/viewarticle/553751_print)<!-- /Article Tool List --></td><!-- /Article Tools --></tr> <tr> <td>https://images.medscape.com/pi/global/ornaments/spacer.gif</td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td width="100%"> <!-- DISPLAY Image ONLY IF PUBLICATION IS REUTERS ELSE DISPLAY MEDSCAPE WIRE SUBTITLE-->https://images.medscape.com/pi/global/logos/webmd/logo-webmdhealth.156x21.gif <!-- /DISPLAY Image ONLY IF PUBLICATION IS REUTERS ELSE DISPLAY MEDSCAPE WIRE SUBTITLE--><!-- Title -->
Chiropractic Cuts Blood Pressure

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March 16, 2007 -- A special chiropractic adjustment can significantly lower high blood pressure, a placebo-controlled study suggests.
"This procedure has the effect of not one, but two blood-pressure medications given in combination," study leader George Bakris, MD, tells WebMD. "And it seems to be adverse-event free. We saw no side effects and no problems," adds Bakris, director of the University of Chicago hypertension center.
Eight weeks after undergoing the procedure, 25 patients with early-stage high blood pressure had significantly lower blood pressure than 25 similar patients who underwent a sham chiropractic adjustment. Because patients can't feel the technique, they were unable to tell which group they were in.
X-rays showed that the procedure realigned the Atlas vertebra -- the doughnut-like bone at the very top of the spine -- with the spine in the treated patients, but not in the sham-treated patients.
Compared to the sham-treated patients, those who got the real procedure saw an average 14 mm Hg greater drop in systolic blood pressure (the top number in a blood pressure count), and an average 8 mm Hg greater drop in diastolic blood pressure (the bottom blood pressure number).
None of the patients took blood pressure medicine during the eight-week study.
"When the statistician brought me the data, I actually didn't believe it. It was way too good to be true," Bakris says. "The statistician said, 'I don't even believe it.' But we checked for everything, and there it was."
Bakris and colleagues report their findings in the advance online issue of the Journal of Human Hypertension.
Atlas Adjustment and Hypertension
The procedure calls for adjustment of the C-1 vertebra. It's called the Atlas vertebra because it holds up the head, just as the titan Atlas holds up the world in Greek mythology.
Marshall Dickholtz Sr., DC, of the Chiropractic Health Center, in Chicago, is the 84-year-old chiropractor who performed all the procedures in the study. He calls the Atlas vertebra "the fuse box to the body."
"At the base of the brain are two centers that control all the muscles of the body. If you pinch the base of the brain -- if the Atlas gets locked in a position as little as a half a millimeter out of line -- it doesn't cause any pain but it upsets these centers," Dickholtz tells WebMD.
The subtle adjustment is practiced by the very small subgroup of chiropractors certified in National Upper Cervical Chiropractic (NUCCA) techniques. The procedure employs precise measurements to determine a patient's Atlas vertebra alignment. If realignment is deemed necessary, the chiropractor uses his or her hands to gently manipulate the vertebra.
"We are not doctors. We are spinal engineers," Dickholtz says. "We use mathematics, geometry, and physics to learn how to slide everything back into place."
What does this have to do with high blood pressure?
Bakris notes that some researchers have suggested that injury to the Atlas vertebra can affect blood flow in the arteries at the base of the skull. Dickholtz thinks the misaligned Atlas triggers release of signals that make the arteries contract. Whether the procedure actually fixes such injuries is unknown, Bakris says.
Bakris began the study after a fellow doctor told him that something strange was happening in his family practice. The doctor had been sending some of his patients to a chiropractor. Some of these patients had high blood pressure.
Yet after seeing the chiropractor, the patients' blood pressure had normalized -- and a few of them were able to stop taking their blood pressure medications.
So Bakris, then at Rush University, designed the pilot study with 50 patients. He's now organizing a much bigger clinical trial.
"Is it going to be for everybody with high blood pressure? No," Bakris says. "We clearly need to identify those who can benefit. It is pretty clear that some kind of head or neck trauma early in life is related to this. This is really a work in progress. It is certainly in the early stages of research."
Dickholtz has been teaching, practicing, and studying the NUCCA technique for 50 years. He says high blood pressure is far from the only thing an Atlas misalignment causes.
"On the other hand, if people have high blood pressure, there is a tremendous possibility they need an Atlas adjustment," he says.

SOURCES: Bakris, G. Journal of Human Hypertension, advance online publication, March 2, 2007. Grassi, G. Journal of Human Hypertension, advance online publication, January 25, 2007. George Bakris, MD, director, hypertension center, University of Chicago. Marshall Dickholtz Sr., DC, Chiropractic Health Center, Chicago.
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That's probably enough fact for now. More FACT, not SPAM, later! Rhonda


This is one of the most interesting and productive threads I've ever read on Wacco since I first subscribed to the list about four or five years ago! (and back then it was merely another Yahoo group!)

I just love pulling down the pants on pseudoscience and bogus medicine. It's always been around and probably always will be. I'm wondering what the folks here think about Reiki? Reiki has become one of the biggest alternative medicine fads in recent years and it always stunk like rotten fish to me.

I really appreciate Sciguy's post, especially his pointing out that these 'healers' (who thrive in Sonoma County because of the alternative culture here), whether they believe it or not, are taking advantage of unsuspecting folks who are desperate in their hour of need. The victims are suffering from an illness that either is too expensive to treat or, for which there is no known cure, and they end up poorer and more desperate as a result of seeking out alternatives.

Edward

[rhonda741]

Thank you for the links!!! Number 1 and 2 were definitely Upper Cervical. Number 3 was what we are AGAINST: Non-specific movement of the fragile neck muscles which can result in new trauma. Number 4 demonstrated WHY we, as upper Cervical Advocates educate the public as to the difference between a general manipulation, whether by a chiropractor or DO, and an Upper Cervical Specialist. We are both on the same page if you research a little farther.

I noticed you didn't post Montel Williams being referred by his medical doctor. Any reason? It gave a detailed analysis and explanation.
https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qiOtb6yM_ow

or this by Channel 12 News in Minneapolis about a baby and her parents AFTER Upper Cervical care.
https://www.myfoxtwincities.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7374876&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.5.1l (https://www.myfoxtwincities.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7374876&version=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.5.1)


Dr. Weller submitted #two to demonstrate the Blair technique of Upper Cervical correction. The loud THUD was the collapsible headpiece which softens the torque of the correction.
What you DIDN't see was the digital x-ray in his office, the specific x-rays of the subluxated area or the 30 minute analysis of the bones which told Dr. Weller WHICH bone needed to be torqued back into position, the degree of misalginment to the right, left , anterior or posterior, or the amount of pressure to apply according to the rotation of the c1c2.

With a little education you may find we're on the same page, fighting the same injustices stemming from ignorance, quackery libel, and a lack of knowledge.

I don't post to sound off, I post to reach people so they don't spend 12 years with someone in dibilitating pain who says they are going to kill themselves to escape. I am passionate because Upper Cervical Care saved my husband, and changed the lives of thousands of people I have met and listened to over the last 8 years.

Sorry for slamming you, Jeff. I tho't you were to severe on some of the posters who are in pain and acared right now; I just wanted to get your attention. You, too Sylph.

Bless you,
Rhonda



I am curious to know if this is what 'upper cervical adjustment' looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn3Q9LlR1gE&feature=related
Or is it more like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpufeLnfo8&feature=related

If it's like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAVxOFftqxg&feature=related
Then Dixon is absolutely right on the money. Do not let anyone 'crack' your neck. There is a small but unnecessary risk of stroke from the rotatory neck manipulation. Most chiropractors really want to do this but gentle manipulation is safer than the high velocity low amplitude thrust of the typical 'adjustment'.

This is a tragic result of an adjustment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHX7m09OZ8E

[rhonda741]

Thanks, Sciguy for asking for relevant, scientific based proofs. Here's one from Dr. Michael Burcon, Upper Cervical Blair practitioner that he was invited BACK to present by the European MD's at Praugue's medical symposium for the second time this year. If the graphs and pictures don't post, email me. I'll send the entire brief to you.
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Cervical Specific Protocol and Results for <o:p></o:p>


139 Meniere’s Patients<o:p></o:p>


[I]<o:p> </o:p>


Michael T. Burcon, B.Ph., D.C.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>


ABSTRACT<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
OBJECTIVES

The Merck Manual states that the cause of Meniere’s disease is unknown; the pathophysiology is poorly understood, and the treatment empirical. Idiopathic endolymphatic hydrops is used interchangeably with Meniere’s disease in the literature. “What would cause an over production of endolymphatic fluid?” My theory is that the most common cause of Meniere’s disease is a structural problem, i.e., an atlas subluxation that is irritating the origin of CNVIII. My objective is to demonstrate the effectiveness of cervical specific chiropractic management with one hundred and thirty nine patients medically diagnosed with Meniere’s disease.
METHODS

Detailed case histories were taken on the first visit, followed by spinal examinations. Patients were required to furnish a letter from their ENT specialists, along with copies of the reports from the tests performed. Because evidence of upper cervical subluxation was discovered in each patient, three cervical x-rays were taken; lateral, A-P open mouth and nasium. Detailed leg checks were performed utilizing the modified Prill leg check system to determine which cervical vertebrae to adjust, and when to adjust it.
RESULTS

X-rays were analyzed using the Blair technique. There are four atlas listings under this system: anterior and superior on the right or the left, and posterior and inferior on the right or the left. One hundred thirty out of one hundred and thirty nine patients had inferior and posterior listings with laterality on the opposite side of their involved ear.
After one or two specific cervical adjustments, one hundred and thirty six out of the one hundred and thirty nine patients presented with balanced legs and an absence or dramatic reduction of symptoms, especially vertigo. After two years, on a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 representing the absence of the symptom and 10 being the worst imaginable, vertigo was lowered from an average of 8.5 to 1.4.
CONCLUSIONS<o:p></o:p>

Prior to the onset of symptoms, all one hundred and thirty nine cases suffered cervical traumas; most from automobile accidents, resulting in previously undiagnosed whiplash injuries. I do not believe it could be coincidental that one hundred and thirty out of one hundred and thirty nine consecutive Meniere’s patients would present with a posterior and inferior atlas listing with laterality on the opposite side of the involved ear.
Key Words: Meniere's disease (syndrome), vertigo, upper cervical specific chiropractic, atlas subluxation, whiplash.<o:p></o:p>
___________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p>
Introduction <o:p></o:p>
The Prosper Meniere Society’s list of symptoms was used to describe Meniere’s disease (MD). (1) Vertigo is the most distressing symptom of Meniere’s disease. Vertigo is a sensation of rotation or spinning. The vertigo can last from ten minutes to 24 hours. It may also be associated with nausea and/or vomiting. After the vertigo has gone away, most patients have imbalance and fatigue for one or two days until returning to normal. Hearing loss is also an associated symptom of Meniere’s disease. Hearing loss usually fluctuates. In most cases hearing loss is only in one ear, but in rare instances, hearing loss can be in both ears. The hearing loss is typically in the low tones. If left untreated, hearing can drop until there is permanent loss in that ear. Pressure and/or fullness in the diseased ear are another complaint. This can occur before or during an attack. Tinnitus, or ringing in the ear, can also occur. This is often a result of the hearing loss.<o:p></o:p>
Meniere’s disease is a subjective diagnosis. The <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">American</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Academy</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Otolaryngology and Head and Neck Surgery’s requirements were used for patient inclusion in this study. (2) For a definite diagnosis of Meniere’s disease, the patient must experience two or more definitive spontaneous episodes of vertigo lasting twenty minutes or longer, have audiometrically documented hearing loss on at least one occasion, experience tinnitus or aural fullness in the involved ear and finally, have other causes excluded, especially a cranial tumor by MRI. An electronystagram (ENG) is oftenperformed, injecting alternating hot 111° F and cold 86° F water and air into the ear. This test typically causes the patient to become nauseous. Electrocochleography is often considered themost objective test for Meniere's disease. (3) A needle is inserted through the eardrum and wired to an oscilloscope. A series of ticks are introduced into the ear through a headphone and agraph of the response is made. <o:p></o:p>
The Merck Manuel states that the cause of Meniere's disease is unknown, and the pathology is poorly understood. (4) The disease is named after Dr Prosper Meniere, Chief of Medicine at the Imperial Institute for Deaf Mutes in Paris France from 1838 until his death in 1862. He wrote the firstpaper on the disease in 1861. Ironically, the young female patient that this paper focused on, after histopathologic postmortem examination, no longer is believed to have suffered from Meniere’s disease. Prior to the publication of Meniere’s paper, the only medical treatment for the condition was bloodletting. (5)<o:p></o:p>
Some famous people thought to have Meniere's include Alan Shephard, Vincent VanGogh, Martin Luther, General Robert E Lee, Jonathan Swift and Julius Caesar. The incidence of Meniere's has been estimated to range from0.5 to 7.5 per 1000, most commonly affecting people in their 40s and 50s. (6) <o:p></o:p>
Patients diagnosed with Meniere's are advised to restrict salt intheir diets to less than 2000 milligrams per day, and to avoid nicotine and caffeine. Diuretics such as Dyazide may be prescribed to reduce the fluid load on the inner ear. Antivert is prescribed for the vertigo. Antihistamines are routinely used to reduce head congestion. Anticholinergics are used to allay nausea. Some combination of barbiturates, antidepressants or sleeping pills is generallyprescribed. Gentamicin may be injected into the middle ear to destroy hair cells. Unfortunately, Gentamicin can also make hearing worse. For this reason, steroids are now more commonly used. (7, 8)<o:p></o:p>
During the year 2005, ninety four percent of the ENT surgeons in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United Kingdom</st1:place></st1:country-region> prescribed the vestibular suppressant Serc to their Meniere’s patients. In 1999 the FDA concluded that although there is no evidence that Serc is harmful, there is little evidence that it has any therapeutic effect. (9) <o:p></o:p>
If symptoms are not controlled with drugs, surgery may be considered. Endolymphatic subarachnoid shunts are found to be 59% effective. Less commonly, a variety of sac incision<o:p></o:p>
operations are performed. They are successful 45% of the time, but result in profound or total hearing loss in 4.3% of cases. (10) Vestibular neurectomy may be performed. This is an intercranial procedure that requires several days of hospitalization. The patient will have extreme vertigo after the procedure followed by weeks of imbalance. Labyrinthectomy (inner ear destruction) is effective in eliminating symptoms, but also totally destroys hearing. The Meniett device is a small machine that provides low-pressure pulses through a ventilation tube placed in the eardrum. It has not been proven to be more effective than “pumping” your ear with the cup of your hand. (11)<o:p></o:p>
Since 1938, the term endolymphatic hydropshas been used interchangeably with Meniere's disease and Meniere's syndrome in the literature. (12) Although the underlying etiology of Meniere's is unknown, a consistent finding is hydropsto indicate dilation of the endolymphatic spaces. It appears that fluid build-up in the endolymphatic space, caused either by overproduction or reduced absorption, exposes hair cells responsible for sensing movement and balance to progressive damage or paralysis. (13) However, many temporal bones with hydrops came from people without a history of vertigo or hearing loss during their lifetime. (14) But the important question is what would cause this overproduction? (Unfortunately, I do not have access to the equipment necessary to measure these fluids before and after the adjustment.) Subluxation between the superior articular surface of atlas and Occiput can cause swelling in the immediate area, putting pressure on the nucleus of CN VIII and/or the auditory (Eustachian) tube. (15)<o:p></o:p>
Another theme in reports on etiology and pathology of Meniere's disease is an increase in immunoglobulins both in the endolymphatic fluid and in serum. This would suggest an<o:p></o:p>
underlying infection, probably viral, or autoimmune component with this condition. (16) (One theory is that infection tends to set in at weakened areas of the body, for instance, areas of vertebral subluxation.)<o:p></o:p>
Both the vestibular and cochlear nerves join the internal auditory meatus to form CN VIII, which enters the brain stem at the cerebello-pontine angle. Meniere's is considered a common peripheral ailment, however it is often overlooked that although within the substance of the brain itself, the root entry zone of the eighth cranial nerve is considered a peripheral vestibular structure. (17) An atlas subluxation may irritate this nerve root by compromising the size of the neural canal space. (18) <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Rosenberg</st1:place></st1:city> reported a case of cervical cord impingement observed with magnetic resonance imaging, bringing on signs and symptoms of medulla compression. (19) Dizziness related to perturbations in information received from proprioceptors in the neck that feed into the vestibular system is not usually taken into consideration. (20) Such proprioceptive insult is a common result of even minor whiplash injuries. <o:p></o:p>
One theory has proposed that irritation of sympathetic nerves can elicit spasms within the vertebral artery, leading to decrease in blood flow to the brain stem. (21) The vertebral arteries reach the interior of the skull by ascending through the transverse foramina of the cervical vertebrae, turning medially along the upper surface of the posterior arch of atlas and then penetrating the posterior atlanto-occipital membrane and the underlying dura to enter the subarachnoid space. (22) Subluxation of the atlas may diminish blood flow through the vertebral arteries and their intracranial branches which supply the spinal cord, CN VIII, medulla, cerebellum and inner ear via the labyrinthine artery.<o:p></o:p>
Twice as many Meniere’s patients suffer from migraine than the general population. Additionally, many of the same symptoms are present in MD and migraine. PET scans of cerebral blood flow in acute migraine show changes in the brainstem and Trigeminal ganglion, areas that may be irritated by an upper cervical subluxation complex. (23, 24)<o:p></o:p>
Finally, internal pressures of the body, specifically that of the cerebrospinal fluid, are rarely taken into consideration. The fluid spaces of the inner ear are connected to the CSF by the cochlear aqueduct, believed to be patent in most humans. Thus pressure changes in CSF are transmitted directly to the ear. (25) The tensor veli palatini and salpingopharyngeus muscles<o:p></o:p>
control the auditory tubes, responsible for equalizing pressure in the middle ears with the atmosphere. (26) These muscles are innervated by the pharyngeal nerve plexi which have a<o:p></o:p>
contribution from Cranial Nerve XII. The hypoglossal canal lies under cover of the middle area of each occipital condyle, intimate to atlas. Therefore, an atlas subluxation could<o:p></o:p>
furthermore interfere with a tubal function. <o:p></o:p>
Most normal individuals cannot appreciate the devastating impact of vertigo. The patient perceives that the world is spinning around them. Vertigo disrupts every aspect of life since the patient loses the ability to do anything normally, especially when movement is involved. It can totally incapacitate the individual, often confining them to bed. (27) Vertigo is to dizziness what migraine is to headache. This report describes the results of 139 patients suffering from Meniere’s who were diagnosed by Ear, Nose and Throat medical specialists. Upon neurological examination and cervical x-ray analysis, all 139 subjects showed evidence of whiplash trauma. Patient histories suggested that the injuries were incurred an average of fifteen years prior to the onset of MD symptoms. It is important to note that most did not list the injury on the original case history paperwork. It was only remembered after lengthy questioning, often by the spouse as opposed to the patient. <o:p></o:p>
Methods<o:p></o:p>
The technique utilized is based on the work of BJ Palmer DC, as developed at his Research Clinic at <st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Chiropractic</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">College</st1:placetype> in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">IA</st1:state></st1:place>, from the early 1930s until his death in 1961. (28, 29, 30) Techniques also include the vertebral subluxation pattern work of his clinic director, Lyle Sherman DC, for whom <st1:city w:st="on">Sherman</st1:city> College of Straight Chiropractic, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Spartanburg</st1:place></st1:city>, SC is named. (31) In each case a detailed case history was taken on the first visit (average 45 minute discussion), followed by a spinal examination. A report of findings was given, recommending a minimum set of three cervical x-rays when evidence of an upper cervical subluxation was discovered in each patient. X-rays and analysis of the upper cervical vertebrae based on the work of William G Blair DC were used to determine chiropractic listings of subluxation.<o:p></o:p>
Lateral cervical, A-P Open Mouth and Nasium x-rays were taken. Dr. Blair began to develop his distinctive method for the analysis and correction of subluxations of the cervical spine soon after graduating from the Palmer School of Chiropractic. Trained in the classical upper cervical specific “Hole In One” (HIO) method, he soon became concerned with the potential effects of osseous asymmetry or malformationon the accuracy of the traditional spinographic analysis in producing a valid adjustive listing. His observations of skeletal specimens also led him to conclude that the prevailing view of misalignment of atlas in relation to the occiput was inaccurate. (32) He found that the atlas could not move in a truly lateral direction because the slope of the lateral masses and the condyles created an osseous locking mechanism preventing such motion; and atlas could not rotate in relation to occiput in the coronal plane without causing a gapping of the atlanto-occipital articulations due to the complementary shapes of the articular surface of the occipital condyles and the lateral masses. (33) Lateral films were analyzed to determine evidence of whiplash injuries. Posterior atlas listings (anterior occipital listings), along with the lack of proper cervical curve, were considered evidence of a history of neck trauma in this study. The A-P Open Mouth view was used to study lateral deviations of the neural rings, which may cause brainstem pressure. With the Nasium x-rays the antero-lateral (distal) margins of each of the articulations were clearly classified as being either juxtaposed, overlapped where the atlas lateral mass margin was more anterolateral than condyle margin, or underlapped where lateral mass margin was less antero-lateral than condyle margin. Overlapping is synonymous with anterior and superior atlas listings with laterality of the side of the overlap, underlapping indicates posterior and inferior C1 listings on the opposite side of the underlap. These appositional judgments of each articulation may then be combined to deduce the actual unilateral or ambilateral misalignment pathways of atlas in relation to occiput, and an anatomically accurate misalignment listing and adjustive formula may thus be derived. (34) When three x-rays were not sufficient to determine upper cervical listings, complete sets of custom Blair x-rays, including individual protracto views of both atlanto-occipital articulations, were taken. There are only four atlas listings under this system—anterior and superior on either the right or left, or posterior and inferior on either the right or left. Using the anterior tubercle of atlas as the reference point, considering the rocker configuration of the atlanto-occipital articulation, if atlas moves posterior then it must also move inferior. (35)<o:p></o:p>
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Detailed leg checks were performed on each patient visit, utilizing the work of J Clay Thompson DC and Clarence Prill DC. (36, 37) Dr Thompson, with the help of Romer Derifield DC, popularized the cervical syndrome check for the upper cervical subluxation complex in the 1940’s. Since then, no one has come up with a reason relative leg length would change when a patient gently turns their head from side to side, while either prone or supine, thus not under the effects of gravity, except upper cervical subluxation. What causes one leg to appear shorter than the other and to change relative length when the head is turned, taking into consideration that the patient is lying down, not under the effects of gravity? One subluxation complex hypothesis proposes that the mechanism of fixation involves impingement of the atlanto-occipital intra-articular fat pad causing reflexive guarding contraction of the suboccipital muscles. Stimulation of the spindles in these muscles are thought to be involved in the initiation of tonic neck reflexes that alter global extensor muscle tone to achieve proper body balance in response to head movement. (38)<o:p></o:p>
A conservative approach in determining evidence of subluxation was used. That is, when in doubt no adjustment was given. The leg checks were the main criterion used to decide when to adjust or not. To determine whether the major subluxation was at the level of atlas or axis, Prill modified leg length tests were utilized. With patient prone, patient was instructed to gently and steadily raise their feet toward the ceiling, while the doctor resisted such movement with his hands. The peripheral nerves were being tested, those that innervate the postural muscles holding one upright in gravity, so it was imperative that the patient only lift their legs slightly and maintain this pressure for at least two seconds. This test was for atlas, the top cervical vertebra. Instructing patients to rotate their feet while the doctor provided resistance and checking relative leg length was used to test axis. Some clinicians prefer to have the toes rotate outward. I had the patients pull their heels together. This corresponds to the rotation of the head on the neck, 50% of which occurs at the level of C2. <o:p></o:p>
Although many chiropractors that utilize the Blair technique do not adjust the lower cervicals, I did in this study. Dr Blair died before getting below C4 in his analysis and adjusting technique protocol. I agree with Blair that until the upper cervical spine is cleared of subluxation, adjusting the lower cervicals will not hold. But in my experience, when there is a significant “kink” in the lower cervicals caused by a whiplash injury, a specific lower cervical adjustment will help the upper cervical adjustments hold significantly longer. This is why I developed Prill type tests for the lower cervicals; C5, C6 and C7. (39)<o:p></o:p>
Thermographs of the cervical spine were utilized using a Tytron C-300 instrument. These were used to develop a pattern of subluxation in order to determine when to adjust. A graph reading that is static and persistent over time is considered to be the patient's pattern. (40, 41) When it was determined that the patient was in a pattern of subluxation, a toggle recoil adjustment was performed on atlas, with the patient in a side-posture position, or a Pierce technique adjustment was performed with the patient prone. Side posture was used when laterality was the main component of the subluxation. The term used for this type of misalignment is translation, and most often occurs with a side impact trauma, for instance, a “T-bone” type of automobile accident. When posteriority was the major component of the subluxation, the prone position was favored. This misalignment usually is the result of the typical “rear ended” type of automobile accident.<o:p></o:p>
A Thuli chiropractic table, using the cervical drop piece was utilized. For side posture adjustments the headpiece was set to drop straight down, and with prone adjustments, it was set to drop down and forward. The patient was then rested for fifteen minutes and rechecked, to make sure that the pattern had been broken. All 139 patients were adjusted on the second visit, after it was found that they were in a pattern of subluxation. They were rested, rechecked, and 133 out of 139 were found to be balanced. The six that were not balanced were adjusted again, rested and balanced when rechecked a second time. Most are now under maintenance care, being checked on a monthly basis.<o:p></o:p>
All patients filled in a questionnaire prior to their first adjustment. They were asked to rate the three major symptoms of Meniere’s; vertigo, loss of hearing and tinnitus, and seven secondary symptoms; nausea and/or vomiting, ear pressure, migraines, headaches, brain fog, neck stiffness and/or pain and sinus pressure and/or pain. These symptoms were rated numerically between 0 and 10, with 0 representing the absence of that symptom and 10 representing that that symptom was the worst the patient could possibly imagine. The questionnaire was filled in again after six weeks, one year (42) and again after a minimum of two years. (Copy of questionnaire at end of this document)<o:p></o:p>
Results<o:p></o:p>
Although all symptoms included in the questionnaire averaged lower scores at six weeks, one year and two years, only vertigo and the associated nausea and vomiting were lowered dramatically. Vertigo averaged 8.5 before cervical specific chiropractic adjustments. After six weeks it lowered to 3.0, after one year it was down to 2.3, and after two years it was down to 1.4. After two years, nausea and/or vomiting was lowered from 7.0 to 1.3. The only negative side effect noted was an increase in the frequency and magnitude of headaches in three patients. For them headaches increased an average of 2.3 to 5.7. <o:p></o:p>
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These improvements made a significant difference for 135 out of 139 patients, effecting whether or not they could work, drive and/or have a positive relationship with their spouse. (Health Talk II DVD’s of Meniere’s patients discussing these changes are available.) They might get dizzy, but would not have vertigo. They might get nauseas, but would no longer vomit. For those that still had attacks, they occurred less often, lasted for a shorter duration and were not as intense. Recovery time was also significantly shorter.<o:p></o:p>
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Example of a Typical Case History with Results <o:p></o:p>
Jack first presented with left sided Meniere’s on June 11, 2001. He was diagnosed by an Ear, Nose and Throat specialist based on the results of a normal MRI of the brain, positive audiological examination for hearing loss, and an abnormal bithermal caloric test (ENG). He was referred to the Michigan Ear Institute, where endolymphatic sac decompression surgery was recommended. He declined surgery and received a letter recommending that he apply for disability benefits, which were granted by the State of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Michigan</st1:state></st1:place>.<o:p></o:p>
Case history included a rear ended type of automobile accident at 45 mph in 1980. Meniere’s symptoms started in 1994 with frequent bouts of vertigo lasting from one day to one week, accompanied by nausea and vomiting. Complaints included constant ear fullness and tinnitus, and frequent concomitant cervicalgia and headaches. He had open heart surgery in 1998. <o:p></o:p>
Jack presented with a 1” short left leg relative to his right, ½” right cervical syndrome and positive C1 and C5 Prill tests. Cervical x-ray analysis provided a listing of PIR for atlas and posterior C5. He was adjusted twice during his first week of care. The next week he presented balanced and was vertigo free. His wife said that his voice had changed. He reported being able to walk four times as far. <o:p></o:p>
At six weeks, according to his Meniere’s questionnaire, vertigo was down to 2 from 10, nausea/vomiting down to 0 from 10 and ear pressure 1 from 10. He went just over one year with no vertigo. After one adjustment, he was vertigo free for an additional two and one half years. His next adjustment held for an additional year and one half. He has not needed an adjustment for the past two and one half years.<o:p></o:p>
Example of a Typical Before and After Thermograph<o:p></o:p>
The following photograph is of a patient with right unilateral Meniere’s, before her first adjustment, and fifteen minutes post adjustment.<o:p></o:p>
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Example of a Typical Pre and Post Cervical X-ray<o:p></o:p>
The following photograph of a cervical A-P Open Mouth x-ray demonstrates an atlas that is posterior and inferior on the left. Notice that the lateral edge of the superior surface of the right articulation of atlas underlaps its articulation with Occiput, creating a subluxation with the listing PIL. This symptomatic patient has right unilateral Meniere’s. The photo to the right was taken six weeks post initial adjustment. Two upper cervical adjustments were performed. Atlas appears to be in juxtaposition. The patient was off all medications and symptom free.
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Discussion<o:p></o:p>
All 139 patients showed evidence of upper cervical subluxation upon neurological examination, and all exhibited both evidence of a history of whiplash and an existing atlas subluxation in radiographs. One hundred thirty out of 139 patients had posterior and inferior atlas listings, with atlas laterality on the opposite side of the involved ear. It took an average of fifteen years from the time of the head/neck trauma until the onset of Meniere’s type symptoms.<o:p></o:p>
Meniere’s disease not only includes the symptom complex consisting of attacks of vertigo, low-frequency hearing loss and tinnitus, but comprises symptoms related to the Eustachian tube, the upper cervical spine, the temporomandibular joints and the autonomic nervous system. (43) The major clinical features of MD, unilaterality and the onset of symptoms in adulthood are compatible with an acquired event. From eleven countries, many clinicians both chiropractic and medical report cases in which cervical manipulation to correct functional spinal pathology has cured tinnitus and improved hearing, often in cases where the auditory problems have followed motor vehicle whiplash injuries. The great majority of cases involve the upper cervical spine. (44) Medical and chiropractic research has established a connection between spinal trauma and numerous neurological conditions besides Meniere's disease, including multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, Trigeminal neuralgia, epilepsy and migraine headache. (45, 46, 47, 48) Chiropractors are well acquainted with the correlation between cervical spine dysfunction and neuro-otological symptoms such as tinnitus, vertigo, neuralgia and sudden hearing loss. (49)<o:p></o:p>
Physicians often make the mistake of thoroughly examining only the area of chief complaint. When relevant, I believe it is prudent to start at the nucleus of the cranial nerve or center that supplies function to that area. For example, the brain stem for balance disorders (CN VIII), irritable bowel syndrome (CN X, Vagus), high blood pressure (vasomotor center) and sleep disorders (reticular formation).<o:p></o:p>
One study of 133 patients diagnosed with Meniere’s disease that were referred to ear surgeons determined that eight years later, 70% of the 83 that got endolymphatic subarachnoid shunt surgery were vertigo free, but of the 50 that declined the surgery, 71% were actually vertigo free. (50) In another study of 243 consecutive patients with a Meniere’s disease diagnose that varied from recent to 41 years, no difference was found in the frequency, intensity or duration of vertigo attacks. Seventy five percent of patients who had MD for more than 20 years considered their vertigo attacks severe and 36% still had attacks 1 to 4 times per week. Nausea associated with vertigo was most common among those with a long history of the disease. (51)<o:p></o:p>
Although statistics and percentages are useful for dealing with large numbers of patients, because Meniere’s disease symptoms and prognosis vary so greatly for each individual patient, they are useless when it comes to one particular patient. Some doctors say Meniere’s burns itself out. Burnout refers to a condition where Meniere’s disease has progressed to the point where it has finally destroyed the entire vestibular function in the affected ear. Although the patient may compensate for this loss in other ways and become rotational vertigo free, the other symptoms continue to worsen. <o:p></o:p>
It is possible that when the top cervical vertebra partially slips off from one of its two articulations, it puts a small amount of pressure on the spinal cord where it meets the medulla<o:p></o:p>
oblongata, irritating it and creating swelling in the area after a period of time. This inflammatory edema could irritate the lower cranial nerves and/or partially block the adjacent auditory tube. In the case of whiplash, the symptoms are usually exaggerated by an additional lower cervical subluxation.<o:p></o:p>
Conclusion<o:p></o:p>
It is possible that the patients recovered through spontaneous remission or because they believed their problems had been discovered and improved, creating a placebo effect. The average time span before chiropractic intervention and the long-term clinically-documented neurophysiological improvements after initial adjustments weigh against such possible effects. In addition, these were 136 consecutive Meniere’s patients, of which one hundred and thirty had posterior and inferior atlas listings with laterality on the opposite side of ear involvement.<o:p></o:p>
All patients with a history of vertigo or dizziness should be questioned about a history of trauma, especially whiplash from an automobile accident, contact sports injury, or serious falls. Patients often forget these accidents, thinking that they were not hurt because they did not break any bones and were not bleeding. Patients with a history of both vertigo and trauma<o:p></o:p>
should be referred to an upper cervical specific chiropractor for examination.<o:p></o:p>
References<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
1. Prosper Meniere Society, Dept. of Otolaryngology, Head and Neck Surgery, <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Arkansas</st1:placename> for Medical Science, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Little Rock</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">AR.</st1:state></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
2. Cowan A & Makishima T, Treatment for Meniere’s Disease, UTMB, Dept. of Otolaryngology, Dec 13, 2006.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
3. Gibson W, Ramsde, R, Moffa, D. Clinical Electrocochleography and Diagnosis and Management of Meniere's Disorder. Audiology 1977, 16:389-401.<o:p></o:p>
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4. The Merck Manual, Sixteenth Edition. Berkow MD, Robert Rahway, NJ: Merck Research Laboratories, Merck & Co., Inc., 2006.<o:p></o:p>
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5. Meniere P. Pathologie auriculaire: Memoires sur de lesions de l’oreille intern donnant lieu a des symptoms de congestion cerebrale apoplectiforme. Gaz Med Paris. 1861;16:597-601.<o:p></o:p>
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6. Pfaltz & Matefi, Sac Enhancement Surgery in Patients with Meniere's Disease, 1981.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
7. Garduno-Anaya M, De Toledo H, Pane-Pianese C, Dexamethasone Inner Ear Perfusion by Intratympanic Injection in Unilateral Meniere’s Disease: Six Years of Prospective Follow-Up, 26^th Politzer Society Meeting, Oct 13-13, 2007, Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland, OH.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
8. Dodson K, Sismanis A, Kyrodimos E, Intratympanic Dexamethasone Perfusion for the Treatment of Meniere’s Disease, 26^th Politzer Society Meeting, Oct 13-16, 2007, Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland, OH.<o:p></o:p>
9. Smith WK, Sankar V, Pfleiderer AG.A national survey amongst <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region></st1:place> otolaryngologists regarding the treatment of Meniere's disease. Laryngol Otol. 2005 Feb;119(2):102-5 <o:p></o:p>
10. Luetje M, Clarence M. A Critical Comparison of Results of Endolymphatic Subarachnoid Shunt and Endolymphatic Sac Incision Operations, Am J Otology March 1988; 9:2.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
11. Feijen R, Wit H, Albers F, Treatment of Meniere’s Disease with Intermittent Middle Ear Pressure, Fifth International Symposium on Meniere’s Disease & Inner Ear Homeostasis Disorders, April 2-5, 2005, Los Angeles, CA.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
12. Yamakawa, K. Uber die pathologische Veranderung bei einem Meniere-Kranken. J Otorhinolaryngol Soc Jpn. 1938;4:2310-2312.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
13. Knox G. Surgical Management of Meniere's Syndrome, Grand Rounds Archives, 1994.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
14. Gates, G, Unresolved Clinical Issues with Meniere’s Disease, Fifth International Symposium on Meniere’s Disease & Inner Ear Homeostasis Disorders, House Ear Institute, April 2-5, 2005, Los Angels, CA.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
15. Burcon M, Upper Cervical Protocol and Results for 100 Meniere’s Patients, 25^th Anniversary of the Prosper Meniere Society and the 12^th International Symposium and Workshops on Inner Ear Surgery and Medicine, Zell am <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Zimmer</st1:city>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Austria</st1:country-region></st1:place>, March 2006.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
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19. Rosenberg W, Salame K, Shumerick K, Tew J. Compression of the upper cervical spinal cord causing symptoms of brainstem compromise. A Case Report. Spine 1998; 23:1497-500.<o:p></o:p>
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20. Fitzgerald D. Head trauma: Hearing loss and dizziness. J Trauma.1996;40:3,488-496.<o:p></o:p>
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21. Biesinger E. Vertigo caused by disorders of the cervical vertebral column; diagnosis and treatment. Adv Otorhinolaryngol. 1998;39:44-51.<o:p></o:p>
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22. Hollinshead W, Rosse C. Textbook of Anatomy, Fourth Edition. <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:city></st1:place>: Harper & Row, 1995.<o:p></o:p>
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23. Radtke A, Migraine and Meniere’s Disease: Is There a Link? Neurology, 2002; 59(11):1700-1704.<o:p></o:p>
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24. Teixido M, Migraine Management for the Otolaryngologist, 13^th International Symposium and Workshops on Inner Ear Medicine and Surgery, Zell im Zillertal, Austria, March 1-8, 2008.<o:p></o:p>
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25. Salt A. A Survey of the Effects of Pressure on Meniere's Disease Symptoms. 2000.<o:p></o:p>
URL:https://oto.wustl.edu/men/pressure (https://oto.wustl.edu/men/pressure).<o:p></o:p>
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26. Burkhard F, Anderson C, Autonomic Control of Eustachian Tube Function in the Anaesthetized Rat, The 25^th Anniversary of the Prosper Meniere Society, March 4-11, 2006, Zell im Zillertal, Austria.<o:p></o:p>
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27. Burcon M. Upper Cervical Protocol for Ten Meniere’s Patients, Upper Cervical Subluxation Complex, A Review of the Chiropractic and Medical Literature, Kirk Ericksen, Lippincott, Williams & Wilkens, Baltimore, MD 2004, pp 284-286.<o:p></o:p>
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28. Palmer DC, BJ. The Subluxation Specific The Adjustment Specific. <st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">Iowa</st1:state>: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">School</st1:placename></st1:place> of Chiropractic, 1934.<o:p></o:p>
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29. Palmer DC, BJ. Chiropractic clinical controlled research. Volume XXV. <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">IA</st1:state></st1:place>: The BJ Palmer Chiropractic Clinic, 1951.<o:p></o:p>
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30. Palmer DC, BJ. History in the Making. Volume XXXV. <st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">Iowa</st1:state>: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">School</st1:placename></st1:place> of Chiropractic, 1957.<o:p></o:p>
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31. Sherman L. Neurocalometer-neurocalographneurotempometer research. Eight BJ Palmer<o:p></o:p>
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32. Blair W. The Chiropractic Story silently told in a medical museum. <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">United States of America</st1:country-region></st1:place>, 1973.<o:p></o:p>
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33. Overview of Blair Cervical Technique, Council on Chiropractic Practice, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Chandler</st1:city></st1:place>, AZ October 2-3, 1995.<o:p></o:p>
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34. Addington E. Blair Cervical Spinographic Analysis, Conference of Research and Education, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Monterey</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">CA</st1:state></st1:place> June 21-23, 1991.<o:p></o:p>
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35. Blair W. Blair upper cervical spinographic research; primary and adaptive malformations; procedures for solving malformation problems; Blair principle of<o:p></o:p>
occipito-atlanto misalignment. <st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">IA</st1:state>: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">College</st1:placename></st1:place> of Chiropractic; 1968.<o:p></o:p>
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36. Burcon M, Parkinson’s disease, Meniere’s syndrome, Trigeminal neuralgia and Bell’s palsy: One cause, One Correction, Dynamic Chiropractor, May 19, 2003, Vol 21, Issue 11.<o:p></o:p>
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37. Prill, C, The Prill Chiropractic Spinal Analysis Technique, 2001.<o:p></o:p>
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38. Knutson G. Tonic Neck Reflexes, Leg Length Inequality and Atlanto-occipital Fat Pad<o:p></o:p>
Impingement: An Atlas Subluxation Complex Hypothesis, Chiropr Res J 1997;4(2):64-76.<o:p></o:p>
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39. Burcon M, Olsen E, Modified Prill Leg Check Protocol, 11^th Annual Vertebral Subluxation Research Conference, <st1:placename w:st="on">Sherman</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">College</st1:placetype> of Straight Chiropractic, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Spartanburg</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">SC</st1:state></st1:place>, Oct 2003. <o:p></o:p>
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40. Hart J, Boone R. Pattern Analysis of Paraspinal Temperatures: A Descriptive Report. J Vert Sublux Res 1999-2000:3(4).<o:p></o:p>
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41. Burcon M. BJ’s $50,000 ‘Timpograph still captures our imagination after more than fifty years, Chiropractic Economics, Nov/Dec 1995.<o:p></o:p>
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42. Burcon M. Cervical Specific Protocol and Results for 100 Meniere’s Patients, 26^th Politzer Society Meeting, Oct 13-16 2007, Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland, OH.<o:p></o:p>
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44. Franz B, Anderson C, The potential role of joint injury and Eustachian tube dysfunction in the genesis of secondary Meniere’s disease, Int Tinnitus J. 2007;13(2):132-7.<o:p></o:p>
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45. Terrett A. Vertebrogenic Hearing Deficit, the Spine, and Spinal Manipulation Therapy: A Search to Validate the D.D. Palmer/Harvey Lillard Experience, Chiropr J Aust 2002; 32(1):14-26.<o:p></o:p>
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46. Elster E, Sixty Patients with Chronic Vertigo Undergoing Upper Cervical Care to Correct Vertebral Subluxation: A Retrospective Analysis, Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research, Nov 2006.<o:p></o:p>
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47. Elster E. Upper Cervical Protocol for Five Multiple Sclerosis Patients. Today's Chiropractic November 2000.<o:p></o:p>
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48. Kessinger R, Boneva D. Vertigo, Tinnitus, and Hearing Loss in the Geriatric Patient J Manipulative Physiol Ther June 2000; 23:5.<o:p></o:p>
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49. Ericksen K, Editorial Comment p 280, Upper Cervical Subluxation Complex, A Review of the Chiropractic and Medical Literature, Lippincott, Williams & Wilkins, 2004.<o:p></o:p>
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50. Silvestein H, Smouha E, Jones R, Natural history vs. surgery for Meniere’s disease, Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg, 1989; 100(1):6-16.<o:p></o:p>
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51. Havia M, Kentala E, Progression of symptoms of dizziness in Meniere’s disease, Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg, 2004 Apr;130(4):431-5.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
MENIERE’S QUESTIONNAIRE<o:p></o:p>


<o:p> </o:p>
Thank you for participating in our Meniere’s study. Please answer the following questions and return this form to Burcon Chiropractic. Answer questions with a number between 0 and 10, with 0 representing that you do not have that problem, 10 representing that the problem is the worst you can imagine.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
In column A put the number for how you felt before your first adjustment at Burcon Chiropractic. In column B put the number for how you have been feeling since your last adjustment.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Patient Name _______________________________ Today’s date __________________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Major Symptoms A B<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>
1. Vertigo, dizziness or lack of balance: __________ __________ <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
2. Loss of hearing: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
3. Tinnitus (ringing in the ears): __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Secondary Symptoms<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
4. Nausea/vomiting: __________ __________ <o:p></o:p>
5. Ear Pressure: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
6. Migraines: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
7. Headaches: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
8. Brain fog: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
9. Neck stiffness/pain: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
10. Sinus pressure/pain: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Comments:<o:p></o:p>





From Sciguy

Observing from the sidelines

I just want to extend my deep thanks to posters including Jeff, Dixon and Sylph (apologies if I missed anyone else) and tell Rhonda 741 she should be ashamed of herself for promoting ignorance so vehemently.

Jeff et al have posted literate, thoughtful, scientifically based, erudite criticisms of the claims of magical effects of so-called alternative medicine and have pointed out the importance of accuracy and scientific studies. I watched the Youtube videos linked by Sylph about chiropractic treatments and the tragedies it has caused by tearing carotid arteries during neck "readjustments". I had no ideas such outcomes were possible. I had only heard of spinal cord injuries.

Jeff had it right on. Testimonies and anecdotes may suggest starting points for studies but they prove nothing. The strongest impression I have taken away from listening to naturpaths, homeopaths, chiropracters, hypnotists, activated water sellers, Ayurvedic practitioners and Chinese medical theorists is that they are repelled by the concept of scientific study. They invent all manner of imaginary body parts and systems (chi, meridians, spurious connections to liver and kidneys, ions, elecric charges) which no one can find or demonstrate but they clearly have no interest in studying or testing their theories. I wonder if there are alternative schools of these alternative medicines who DO welcome scientific studies. I have not heard their voices anywhere. I hear trained medical personnel on KPFA who constantly report on and rely on good studies to support their main recommendations but as soon as they delve into "alternative" medical boasts, they ask for no supporting studies but naively accept any claim on face value. The "alternative" boosters have become used to getting a free ride from naive Calfornians. Jeff et al's insistence on the basic importance of double blind studies for ALL claims is refreshing, and strongly needed to squelch the baseless claims of the "alternative medicine" community who, I think, do serious harm to sick people, by pretending to have cures which no study supports. Western medicine cannot be contrasted to any other kind of medicine because Western medicine, as a science, necessarily accepts, and welcomes in, any treatment which is demonstrably effective. In a world that understood scientific thinking, there would be no such thing as alternative medicine, only medicine, and only Western medicine is openminded enough to approach that ideal.

Thanks again Jeff, Dixon, Sylph et al

<hr>

Paul (Sciguy)

[pbrinton]

In spite of my former resolution not to get involved in these kinds of discussions, this post is just too outrageous to pass up.


Jeff:

Let's look at a few FACTS:

The NUMBER ONE KILLER in America is NOT heart disease or high blood pressure, but Iatragenic Disease, commonly known as Medical errors. The number of people who die EVERY DAY from medical related incidence or error is the equivalent to 6 (SIX) jumbo jets crashing and killing everyone aboard. THAT Happens EVERY DAY!!!!!! That is outrageous!

Where are you getting these numbers? You seem to be saying that there are some 800,000 iatrogenic (sic) deaths in the US every year. (I am assuming that by "America" you mean the US, right? It seems to be a habit in this country to conflate the two, to the disgust of the many other inhabitants of the continent.) This would indeed put it in the number one slot, but with a total of around 2,400,000 deaths a year, of which some 1,400,000 are attributed to heart disease and cancer, it seems unlikely that your number is correct.

But beyond the accuracy of the numbers, if you are going to use this as an argument for staying away from doctors, you would have to show that a significant number of these deaths would not have occurred had the person not sought medical attention


The NUMBER ONE suggestion a medical (real doctor ????) makes is to take tests, and more tests, and more tests, and then prescribe a drug that they
1. own stock in the producing pharmaceutical company of
2. receive kick-backs & benefits for perscribing x # of _______ within a designated time frame
3. KNOW that the drug will not "cure" anything, but instead create issues that will require more drugs to compensate for the bad side affects of this new drug, which MAY kill the person because their system will not handle the side affects mentioned in pica 4 print on the label inside the box

In any profession, or for that matter any grouping of people at all, you will find some who are dishonest, some who are criminal, some who are honest but deluded, and some who are both sincere and skillful, among many other categories. You will also find that the percentages of these categories are pretty constant in all walks of life, including the "alternative" health business. Your suggestion that all, or even a large proportion, of doctors act as you have described does not look like cynicism, but an extreme form of prejudice. Yes, I am sure that there are doctors who are as you describe, but I am equally sure that they form a tiny minority of the profession. (Nitpicking point: a pica is 12 points, so you described 48-point type, which would be readable at six feet or so!)


The Number TWO suggestion by REAL medical doctors is to cut an organ out (for $72,000 +) that will provide a little relief but shorten the expected life span of the individual mutilated by the "expertise" of the surgeon who performs barbaric atrocities to the human body for a "fee" which pays a portion of his malpractice insurance.

Again, surgeons are fallible and sometimes dishonest, but the same applies here. In addition, some forms of surgery are unquestionably beneficial (I hope you would not go to an Upper Cervical pracitioner to treat an attack of appendicitis). And there are plenty of malpractice attorneys ready to pounce on any surgeon who even makes an honest mistake, let alone indulges in the kind of behavior you describe. (That malpractice insurance you mention creates a very tempting deep pocket!)


IF YOU WANT to know the truth and really help people, then read the reports of these people who have tried alternative approaches to health and gotten over their dibilitating illnesses. Their desire is to help others without expecting a financial gain or showing their excellent knowledge base. Shame on you for putting down members on this group who do not have an agenda or need to perform to your arrogant responses.

No agenda? You are pushing Upper Cervical care. Is this not a profit-making business too? Are you saying that this is the one business that contains no dishonest, greedy or deluded practitioners? I would be astonished.


Of course, the Upper Cervical doctor, according to your qualifications is not a REAL DOCTOR because he does not TEST, REMOVE organs or prescribe drugs). That means he is NOT a MD or DO, doesn't it? Montel goes on to say his MS disappeared after his atlas was corrected. How many modern REAL doctors have patients that say that? We have unlimited testimonies from people saying the same thing on our site.

What defines a "real" doctor is not how he or she sets about diagnosing and treating patients, it is the education and certification that he or she has undergone. "Real" doctors regularly report patients that recover for no discernible reason; no doubt you are familiar with the placebo effect, for instance. This is why medical science is very circumspect about ascrbing causes to either illnesses or cures; it takes very careful study and statistical analysis to determine what is really true. Whatever your opinion of the scientific method and the value of anecdotal evidence, you would do well to read Carl Sagan's book "A Demon-Haunted World (Science as a Candle in the Dark)" which describes many beliefs that were once widely held among even intelligent people that even you would now acknowledge to be mistaken.

So could we not perhaps conduct this discussion on a more intelligent level, and leave out the blanket condemnations of an entire profession, and the unsupported and highly questionable statistics? I am sure that Upper Cervical care has its place as a treatment modality, and in the hands of a skillful practitioner can be helpful in some cases where regular medicine has failed, but I am equally sure that it is not a panacea that will cure all ills, and that there are UC practitioners who are dishonest and greedy and venal in about the same proportion as in all other professions.

Patrick Brinton

[Dynamique]

Horseshit!!

In most states of the U.S., including California, a person who has completed a course of study at an accredited naturapathic college and passed the licensing exam will receive a Naturapathic Doctor license and then can practice as a naturapathic physician. They can do some procedures and order lab tests.

The practices of allopathy and naturapathy are different, so the two degrees and licenses are by no means interchangeable. However, they are both "doctors."

Jeff, there's an old Chinese saying: "it is better to be thought a fool than to open the mouth and prove it." There is a lot of bad medical advice and pseudo-science flying around on this board, and just about all of it comes from you.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. PUT A CORK IN IT!


Foul!

"Naturopaths" are NOT medical doctors, have never been to medical school and do not have a medical license.

Do not be fooled! Real doctors have MD or DO on their business cards. "ND" does not mean a credentialed medical doctor.

It is possible for an MD or a DO (real medical doctors with real medical licenses) to take "naturopath" training and/or offer naturopathic type treatments so they can get on the unregulated gravy train of "alternative" treatments. Buyer beware.

-Jeff

[Dynamique]

Yeah, I do have something against psychiatrists. They pass out dope like it's Pez candy. Sometimes it is genuinely necessary, but all too often it is a "cheap fix" that insurance will cover, which seems to be what is really driving how medical care is practiced in this country.

A relationship where one partner clearly does not respect the profession of the other does not sound balanced at all. It sounds abusive and demeaning. I really hope this dame wises up and finds herself a better situation.

The reference was to a Doctorate of Psychology, however that is abbreviated, but really anyone who has a clinical psychology license would do. Psychiatrist... not so much.


Got something against psychiatrists who are real Medical Doctors?

We both feel like our relationship is permanent. We're pretty well adjusted, despite our strange attractions. :wink:

-Jeff

PS. I'm supposing you meant Psy. D not Psych. D.

[Dixon]

"All truth goes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is viloently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

This Schopenhauer quote is commonly whipped out when someone's fave claim is being attacked. I trust that we all realize that the quote doesn't carry the implication that everything that's ridiculed is truth. In fact, it's probably safe to say that most of what's ridiculed is false.

(Rhonda goes on to bore us with some more anecdotes, apparently still not getting that anecdotal evidence doesn't prove what she wants us to believe, and throws in some attacks on "Western" medicine, perhaps on the fallacious assumption that if "Western" medicine is bogus, that means the approach she favors must be right?) Then she says:


There is a certain misalignment that contributes to depression, and mental disorders. IN FACT, in the 1940's, the IA state sanitorium for the insane, had a 32% recovery rate of inmates, excuse me, patients, who were cured enough to leave. (read the history, THIS IS A FACT!!!)
Dr. BJ Palmer took the mental patients from the IA state sanitorium who had not been helped, and had a 62% recovery rate. He did not use drugs, electric stimulation, phyco-therapy or labotomy procedures. As someone who worked in mental health for over 20 years (and helped a lot of people!), I'd be interested in looking at this. Can you give a reference?


(Read the facts on quackery lawsuits; Stephen Barrett, MD who called chiropractors quacks is now defending a libel lawsuit and has been force to move twice because of his unethical and unfounded accusations.
The fact that he's defending against a libel lawsuit doesn't mean his criticisms of chiropractors are untrue. Nuisance lawsuits are often used to shut up critics. As far as his moving goes, what does that tell us about the truth of your claims for Upper Cervical work? Nothing. Such tangential ranting only undercuts your credibility, Rhonda. Could you stick with the relevant facts? Even if Stephen Barrett were the devil incarnate, what relevance would that have to whether your claims about Upper Cervical are true?
(Rhonda then recounts an apparently true, but ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT story of "Western" medical MD's defrauding a bunch of patients, then says:


But, of course, this is not reflective of the modern Western Medicine that is being defended is it? Rhonda, get it through your head: Nobody's saying "Western Medicine" is perfect! All of us who are discussing this with you agree that there are lots of problems and abuses. Again, even if you somehow showed that "Western Medicine" was totally bogus, with no validity whatsoever, that would not constitute any evidence whatsoever for your claims about Upper Cervical. If you think it does, or even that your attacks on "Western Medicine" are at all relevant to a discussion about the validity of your "UC" (as I'll call it), you're just thinking fallaciously.

(Rhonda continues with more useless anecdotes and irrelevant jabs at "Western Medicine", and then she FINALLY presents some research!)

Finally, Rhonda, you're getting down to relevant brass tacks. Even though you undercut your credibility by associating yourself with chiropractic (large chunks of which are hogwash), making fallacious arguments ad infinitum, and ranting hysterically, you've finally presented what looks like it might be a decent study. If this study can now be replicated by other researchers (without a conflict of interest, of course), you may have something here.

See, I'm plenty open-minded. You just have to give me something to work with, instead of irrelevant, illogical rants.

Blessings;

Dixon

FACT: The NUCCA Upper Cervical chiropractic group released a blind study of 50 patients in March proving that aligning the atlas would lower blood pressure. The AMA is working with this same group to do another study as we speak. FACT!!! <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="760"><tbody><tr valign="top"> <td background="https://images.medscape.com/pi/global/ornaments/left-bgtile.gif" width="20">
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Chiropractic Cuts Blood Pressure


Daniel DeNoon
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March 16, 2007 -- A special chiropractic adjustment can significantly lower high blood pressure, a placebo-controlled study suggests.
"This procedure has the effect of not one, but two blood-pressure medications given in combination," study leader George Bakris, MD, tells WebMD. "And it seems to be adverse-event free. We saw no side effects and no problems," adds Bakris, director of the University of Chicago hypertension center.
Eight weeks after undergoing the procedure, 25 patients with early-stage high blood pressure had significantly lower blood pressure than 25 similar patients who underwent a sham chiropractic adjustment. Because patients can't feel the technique, they were unable to tell which group they were in.
X-rays showed that the procedure realigned the Atlas vertebra -- the doughnut-like bone at the very top of the spine -- with the spine in the treated patients, but not in the sham-treated patients.
Compared to the sham-treated patients, those who got the real procedure saw an average 14 mm Hg greater drop in systolic blood pressure (the top number in a blood pressure count), and an average 8 mm Hg greater drop in diastolic blood pressure (the bottom blood pressure number).
None of the patients took blood pressure medicine during the eight-week study.
"When the statistician brought me the data, I actually didn't believe it. It was way too good to be true," Bakris says. "The statistician said, 'I don't even believe it.' But we checked for everything, and there it was."
Bakris and colleagues report their findings in the advance online issue of the Journal of Human Hypertension.
Atlas Adjustment and Hypertension
The procedure calls for adjustment of the C-1 vertebra. It's called the Atlas vertebra because it holds up the head, just as the titan Atlas holds up the world in Greek mythology.
Marshall Dickholtz Sr., DC, of the Chiropractic Health Center, in Chicago, is the 84-year-old chiropractor who performed all the procedures in the study. He calls the Atlas vertebra "the fuse box to the body."
"At the base of the brain are two centers that control all the muscles of the body. If you pinch the base of the brain -- if the Atlas gets locked in a position as little as a half a millimeter out of line -- it doesn't cause any pain but it upsets these centers," Dickholtz tells WebMD.
The subtle adjustment is practiced by the very small subgroup of chiropractors certified in National Upper Cervical Chiropractic (NUCCA) techniques. The procedure employs precise measurements to determine a patient's Atlas vertebra alignment. If realignment is deemed necessary, the chiropractor uses his or her hands to gently manipulate the vertebra.
"We are not doctors. We are spinal engineers," Dickholtz says. "We use mathematics, geometry, and physics to learn how to slide everything back into place."
What does this have to do with high blood pressure?
Bakris notes that some researchers have suggested that injury to the Atlas vertebra can affect blood flow in the arteries at the base of the skull. Dickholtz thinks the misaligned Atlas triggers release of signals that make the arteries contract. Whether the procedure actually fixes such injuries is unknown, Bakris says.
Bakris began the study after a fellow doctor told him that something strange was happening in his family practice. The doctor had been sending some of his patients to a chiropractor. Some of these patients had high blood pressure.
Yet after seeing the chiropractor, the patients' blood pressure had normalized -- and a few of them were able to stop taking their blood pressure medications.
So Bakris, then at Rush University, designed the pilot study with 50 patients. He's now organizing a much bigger clinical trial.
"Is it going to be for everybody with high blood pressure? No," Bakris says. "We clearly need to identify those who can benefit. It is pretty clear that some kind of head or neck trauma early in life is related to this. This is really a work in progress. It is certainly in the early stages of research."
Dickholtz has been teaching, practicing, and studying the NUCCA technique for 50 years. He says high blood pressure is far from the only thing an Atlas misalignment causes.
"On the other hand, if people have high blood pressure, there is a tremendous possibility they need an Atlas adjustment," he says.

SOURCES: Bakris, G. Journal of Human Hypertension, advance online publication, March 2, 2007. Grassi, G. Journal of Human Hypertension, advance online publication, January 25, 2007. George Bakris, MD, director, hypertension center, University of Chicago. Marshall Dickholtz Sr., DC, Chiropractic Health Center, Chicago.
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[Dixon]

Thanks, Sciguy for asking for relevant, scientific based proofs. Here's one from Dr. Michael Burcon, Upper Cervical Blair practitioner that he was invited BACK to present by the European MD's at Praugue's medical symposium for the second time this year.

Prague? I could find no reference to a symposium in Prague on Burcon's website. You must mean the symposium he attended in Austria.

(She then presents his report of a research project purportedly validating his Upper Cervical approach for treatment of Meniere's Disease).

Rhonda, I don't find this study as convincing as the previous one you posted. I'm not a scientist myself, but I think I see some fairly serious flaws in the design.

First of all, when he starts talking about "subluxations", he's stepping onto thin ice. The very existence of subluxations is questionable. Many doctors say that subluxations are all in the chiropractors' imaginations, and this is borne out by studies in which, for instance, a patient is taken to 5 different chiropractors in the same day, only to get 5 wildly differing diagnoses, with no agreement on where the supposed subluxations are! Here's a page with a number of links to info about the subluxation issue:
https://www.geocities.com/chiroskeptical/subluxation.html

With that in mind, the experiment should have been designed such that several different practitioners would diagnose the problem in each case, with no knowledge of what the other docs had said. A high level of inter-rater agreement on diagnosis (including number and location of "subluxations") would indicate validity of the diagnostic assumptions; absence of such agreement would indicate the opposite. The lack of such a control in the diagnostic phase is a shame.

Even worse, unlike the previous study you posted, this one lacks any kind of control group! So there's no way of knowing whether the good results he reports were from his treatment or any of a number of other possible factors. This constitutes a major flaw, and it's rather pathetic that he made such an obvious, and huge, mistake.

The need for a placebo group to control for psychological factors is especially important in studies like this wherein the outcomes being measured are extremely subjective. Stiffness, pain, pressure (subjectively felt, not objectively measured), dizziness, brain fog, indeed ALL the outcomes, are so subjective as to be highly influenced by the kind of psychological factors that Burcon failed to control for!

Also, Burcon's claim that every one of the subjects had evidence of whiplash injury some time in their past is highly suspect, simply because virtually everyone on the planet has had a car crash or other situation that could have caused whiplash, so we all could be said to have "evidence" of whiplash in our past. So the part of his case that's predicated on that is also weak.

I'm certainly not hostile to the possibility that this procedure can cure Meniere's Disease (or any condition), but we'll need to have better-designed studies if progress is to be made.

Thanks for sharing this one so I could have a chance to look at the evidence.

Dixon


If the graphs and pictures don't post, email me. I'll send the entire brief to you.
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Cervical Specific Protocol and Results for <o:p></o:p>



139 Meniere’s Patients<o:p></o:p>



[I]<o:p> </o:p>



Michael T. Burcon, B.Ph., D.C.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>


ABSTRACT<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>
OBJECTIVES

The Merck Manual states that the cause of Meniere’s disease is unknown; the pathophysiology is poorly understood, and the treatment empirical. Idiopathic endolymphatic hydrops is used interchangeably with Meniere’s disease in the literature. “What would cause an over production of endolymphatic fluid?” My theory is that the most common cause of Meniere’s disease is a structural problem, i.e., an atlas subluxation that is irritating the origin of CNVIII. My objective is to demonstrate the effectiveness of cervical specific chiropractic management with one hundred and thirty nine patients medically diagnosed with Meniere’s disease.
METHODS

Detailed case histories were taken on the first visit, followed by spinal examinations. Patients were required to furnish a letter from their ENT specialists, along with copies of the reports from the tests performed. Because evidence of upper cervical subluxation was discovered in each patient, three cervical x-rays were taken; lateral, A-P open mouth and nasium. Detailed leg checks were performed utilizing the modified Prill leg check system to determine which cervical vertebrae to adjust, and when to adjust it.
RESULTS

X-rays were analyzed using the Blair technique. There are four atlas listings under this system: anterior and superior on the right or the left, and posterior and inferior on the right or the left. One hundred thirty out of one hundred and thirty nine patients had inferior and posterior listings with laterality on the opposite side of their involved ear.
After one or two specific cervical adjustments, one hundred and thirty six out of the one hundred and thirty nine patients presented with balanced legs and an absence or dramatic reduction of symptoms, especially vertigo. After two years, on a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 representing the absence of the symptom and 10 being the worst imaginable, vertigo was lowered from an average of 8.5 to 1.4.
CONCLUSIONS<o:p></o:p>

Prior to the onset of symptoms, all one hundred and thirty nine cases suffered cervical traumas; most from automobile accidents, resulting in previously undiagnosed whiplash injuries. I do not believe it could be coincidental that one hundred and thirty out of one hundred and thirty nine consecutive Meniere’s patients would present with a posterior and inferior atlas listing with laterality on the opposite side of the involved ear.
Key Words: Meniere's disease (syndrome), vertigo, upper cervical specific chiropractic, atlas subluxation, whiplash.<o:p></o:p>
___________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p>
Introduction <o:p></o:p>
The Prosper Meniere Society’s list of symptoms was used to describe Meniere’s disease (MD). (1) Vertigo is the most distressing symptom of Meniere’s disease. Vertigo is a sensation of rotation or spinning. The vertigo can last from ten minutes to 24 hours. It may also be associated with nausea and/or vomiting. After the vertigo has gone away, most patients have imbalance and fatigue for one or two days until returning to normal. Hearing loss is also an associated symptom of Meniere’s disease. Hearing loss usually fluctuates. In most cases hearing loss is only in one ear, but in rare instances, hearing loss can be in both ears. The hearing loss is typically in the low tones. If left untreated, hearing can drop until there is permanent loss in that ear. Pressure and/or fullness in the diseased ear are another complaint. This can occur before or during an attack. Tinnitus, or ringing in the ear, can also occur. This is often a result of the hearing loss.<o:p></o:p>
Meniere’s disease is a subjective diagnosis. The <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">American</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Academy</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Otolaryngology and Head and Neck Surgery’s requirements were used for patient inclusion in this study. (2) For a definite diagnosis of Meniere’s disease, the patient must experience two or more definitive spontaneous episodes of vertigo lasting twenty minutes or longer, have audiometrically documented hearing loss on at least one occasion, experience tinnitus or aural fullness in the involved ear and finally, have other causes excluded, especially a cranial tumor by MRI. An electronystagram (ENG) is oftenperformed, injecting alternating hot 111° F and cold 86° F water and air into the ear. This test typically causes the patient to become nauseous. Electrocochleography is often considered themost objective test for Meniere's disease. (3) A needle is inserted through the eardrum and wired to an oscilloscope. A series of ticks are introduced into the ear through a headphone and agraph of the response is made. <o:p></o:p>
The Merck Manuel states that the cause of Meniere's disease is unknown, and the pathology is poorly understood. (4) The disease is named after Dr Prosper Meniere, Chief of Medicine at the Imperial Institute for Deaf Mutes in Paris France from 1838 until his death in 1862. He wrote the firstpaper on the disease in 1861. Ironically, the young female patient that this paper focused on, after histopathologic postmortem examination, no longer is believed to have suffered from Meniere’s disease. Prior to the publication of Meniere’s paper, the only medical treatment for the condition was bloodletting. (5)<o:p></o:p>
Some famous people thought to have Meniere's include Alan Shephard, Vincent VanGogh, Martin Luther, General Robert E Lee, Jonathan Swift and Julius Caesar. The incidence of Meniere's has been estimated to range from0.5 to 7.5 per 1000, most commonly affecting people in their 40s and 50s. (6) <o:p></o:p>
Patients diagnosed with Meniere's are advised to restrict salt intheir diets to less than 2000 milligrams per day, and to avoid nicotine and caffeine. Diuretics such as Dyazide may be prescribed to reduce the fluid load on the inner ear. Antivert is prescribed for the vertigo. Antihistamines are routinely used to reduce head congestion. Anticholinergics are used to allay nausea. Some combination of barbiturates, antidepressants or sleeping pills is generallyprescribed. Gentamicin may be injected into the middle ear to destroy hair cells. Unfortunately, Gentamicin can also make hearing worse. For this reason, steroids are now more commonly used. (7, 8)<o:p></o:p>
During the year 2005, ninety four percent of the ENT surgeons in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United Kingdom</st1:place></st1:country-region> prescribed the vestibular suppressant Serc to their Meniere’s patients. In 1999 the FDA concluded that although there is no evidence that Serc is harmful, there is little evidence that it has any therapeutic effect. (9) <o:p></o:p>
If symptoms are not controlled with drugs, surgery may be considered. Endolymphatic subarachnoid shunts are found to be 59% effective. Less commonly, a variety of sac incision<o:p></o:p>
operations are performed. They are successful 45% of the time, but result in profound or total hearing loss in 4.3% of cases. (10) Vestibular neurectomy may be performed. This is an intercranial procedure that requires several days of hospitalization. The patient will have extreme vertigo after the procedure followed by weeks of imbalance. Labyrinthectomy (inner ear destruction) is effective in eliminating symptoms, but also totally destroys hearing. The Meniett device is a small machine that provides low-pressure pulses through a ventilation tube placed in the eardrum. It has not been proven to be more effective than “pumping” your ear with the cup of your hand. (11)<o:p></o:p>
Since 1938, the term endolymphatic hydropshas been used interchangeably with Meniere's disease and Meniere's syndrome in the literature. (12) Although the underlying etiology of Meniere's is unknown, a consistent finding is hydropsto indicate dilation of the endolymphatic spaces. It appears that fluid build-up in the endolymphatic space, caused either by overproduction or reduced absorption, exposes hair cells responsible for sensing movement and balance to progressive damage or paralysis. (13) However, many temporal bones with hydrops came from people without a history of vertigo or hearing loss during their lifetime. (14) But the important question is what would cause this overproduction? (Unfortunately, I do not have access to the equipment necessary to measure these fluids before and after the adjustment.) Subluxation between the superior articular surface of atlas and Occiput can cause swelling in the immediate area, putting pressure on the nucleus of CN VIII and/or the auditory (Eustachian) tube. (15)<o:p></o:p>
Another theme in reports on etiology and pathology of Meniere's disease is an increase in immunoglobulins both in the endolymphatic fluid and in serum. This would suggest an<o:p></o:p>
underlying infection, probably viral, or autoimmune component with this condition. (16) (One theory is that infection tends to set in at weakened areas of the body, for instance, areas of vertebral subluxation.)<o:p></o:p>
Both the vestibular and cochlear nerves join the internal auditory meatus to form CN VIII, which enters the brain stem at the cerebello-pontine angle. Meniere's is considered a common peripheral ailment, however it is often overlooked that although within the substance of the brain itself, the root entry zone of the eighth cranial nerve is considered a peripheral vestibular structure. (17) An atlas subluxation may irritate this nerve root by compromising the size of the neural canal space. (18) <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Rosenberg</st1:place></st1:city> reported a case of cervical cord impingement observed with magnetic resonance imaging, bringing on signs and symptoms of medulla compression. (19) Dizziness related to perturbations in information received from proprioceptors in the neck that feed into the vestibular system is not usually taken into consideration. (20) Such proprioceptive insult is a common result of even minor whiplash injuries. <o:p></o:p>
One theory has proposed that irritation of sympathetic nerves can elicit spasms within the vertebral artery, leading to decrease in blood flow to the brain stem. (21) The vertebral arteries reach the interior of the skull by ascending through the transverse foramina of the cervical vertebrae, turning medially along the upper surface of the posterior arch of atlas and then penetrating the posterior atlanto-occipital membrane and the underlying dura to enter the subarachnoid space. (22) Subluxation of the atlas may diminish blood flow through the vertebral arteries and their intracranial branches which supply the spinal cord, CN VIII, medulla, cerebellum and inner ear via the labyrinthine artery.<o:p></o:p>
Twice as many Meniere’s patients suffer from migraine than the general population. Additionally, many of the same symptoms are present in MD and migraine. PET scans of cerebral blood flow in acute migraine show changes in the brainstem and Trigeminal ganglion, areas that may be irritated by an upper cervical subluxation complex. (23, 24)<o:p></o:p>
Finally, internal pressures of the body, specifically that of the cerebrospinal fluid, are rarely taken into consideration. The fluid spaces of the inner ear are connected to the CSF by the cochlear aqueduct, believed to be patent in most humans. Thus pressure changes in CSF are transmitted directly to the ear. (25) The tensor veli palatini and salpingopharyngeus muscles<o:p></o:p>
control the auditory tubes, responsible for equalizing pressure in the middle ears with the atmosphere. (26) These muscles are innervated by the pharyngeal nerve plexi which have a<o:p></o:p>
contribution from Cranial Nerve XII. The hypoglossal canal lies under cover of the middle area of each occipital condyle, intimate to atlas. Therefore, an atlas subluxation could<o:p></o:p>
furthermore interfere with a tubal function. <o:p></o:p>
Most normal individuals cannot appreciate the devastating impact of vertigo. The patient perceives that the world is spinning around them. Vertigo disrupts every aspect of life since the patient loses the ability to do anything normally, especially when movement is involved. It can totally incapacitate the individual, often confining them to bed. (27) Vertigo is to dizziness what migraine is to headache. This report describes the results of 139 patients suffering from Meniere’s who were diagnosed by Ear, Nose and Throat medical specialists. Upon neurological examination and cervical x-ray analysis, all 139 subjects showed evidence of whiplash trauma. Patient histories suggested that the injuries were incurred an average of fifteen years prior to the onset of MD symptoms. It is important to note that most did not list the injury on the original case history paperwork. It was only remembered after lengthy questioning, often by the spouse as opposed to the patient. <o:p></o:p>
Methods<o:p></o:p>
The technique utilized is based on the work of BJ Palmer DC, as developed at his Research Clinic at <st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Chiropractic</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">College</st1:placetype> in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">IA</st1:state></st1:place>, from the early 1930s until his death in 1961. (28, 29, 30) Techniques also include the vertebral subluxation pattern work of his clinic director, Lyle Sherman DC, for whom <st1:city w:st="on">Sherman</st1:city> College of Straight Chiropractic, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Spartanburg</st1:place></st1:city>, SC is named. (31) In each case a detailed case history was taken on the first visit (average 45 minute discussion), followed by a spinal examination. A report of findings was given, recommending a minimum set of three cervical x-rays when evidence of an upper cervical subluxation was discovered in each patient. X-rays and analysis of the upper cervical vertebrae based on the work of William G Blair DC were used to determine chiropractic listings of subluxation.<o:p></o:p>
Lateral cervical, A-P Open Mouth and Nasium x-rays were taken. Dr. Blair began to develop his distinctive method for the analysis and correction of subluxations of the cervical spine soon after graduating from the Palmer School of Chiropractic. Trained in the classical upper cervical specific “Hole In One” (HIO) method, he soon became concerned with the potential effects of osseous asymmetry or malformationon the accuracy of the traditional spinographic analysis in producing a valid adjustive listing. His observations of skeletal specimens also led him to conclude that the prevailing view of misalignment of atlas in relation to the occiput was inaccurate. (32) He found that the atlas could not move in a truly lateral direction because the slope of the lateral masses and the condyles created an osseous locking mechanism preventing such motion; and atlas could not rotate in relation to occiput in the coronal plane without causing a gapping of the atlanto-occipital articulations due to the complementary shapes of the articular surface of the occipital condyles and the lateral masses. (33) Lateral films were analyzed to determine evidence of whiplash injuries. Posterior atlas listings (anterior occipital listings), along with the lack of proper cervical curve, were considered evidence of a history of neck trauma in this study. The A-P Open Mouth view was used to study lateral deviations of the neural rings, which may cause brainstem pressure. With the Nasium x-rays the antero-lateral (distal) margins of each of the articulations were clearly classified as being either juxtaposed, overlapped where the atlas lateral mass margin was more anterolateral than condyle margin, or underlapped where lateral mass margin was less antero-lateral than condyle margin. Overlapping is synonymous with anterior and superior atlas listings with laterality of the side of the overlap, underlapping indicates posterior and inferior C1 listings on the opposite side of the underlap. These appositional judgments of each articulation may then be combined to deduce the actual unilateral or ambilateral misalignment pathways of atlas in relation to occiput, and an anatomically accurate misalignment listing and adjustive formula may thus be derived. (34) When three x-rays were not sufficient to determine upper cervical listings, complete sets of custom Blair x-rays, including individual protracto views of both atlanto-occipital articulations, were taken. There are only four atlas listings under this system—anterior and superior on either the right or left, or posterior and inferior on either the right or left. Using the anterior tubercle of atlas as the reference point, considering the rocker configuration of the atlanto-occipital articulation, if atlas moves posterior then it must also move inferior. (35)<o:p></o:p>
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Detailed leg checks were performed on each patient visit, utilizing the work of J Clay Thompson DC and Clarence Prill DC. (36, 37) Dr Thompson, with the help of Romer Derifield DC, popularized the cervical syndrome check for the upper cervical subluxation complex in the 1940’s. Since then, no one has come up with a reason relative leg length would change when a patient gently turns their head from side to side, while either prone or supine, thus not under the effects of gravity, except upper cervical subluxation. What causes one leg to appear shorter than the other and to change relative length when the head is turned, taking into consideration that the patient is lying down, not under the effects of gravity? One subluxation complex hypothesis proposes that the mechanism of fixation involves impingement of the atlanto-occipital intra-articular fat pad causing reflexive guarding contraction of the suboccipital muscles. Stimulation of the spindles in these muscles are thought to be involved in the initiation of tonic neck reflexes that alter global extensor muscle tone to achieve proper body balance in response to head movement. (38)<o:p></o:p>
A conservative approach in determining evidence of subluxation was used. That is, when in doubt no adjustment was given. The leg checks were the main criterion used to decide when to adjust or not. To determine whether the major subluxation was at the level of atlas or axis, Prill modified leg length tests were utilized. With patient prone, patient was instructed to gently and steadily raise their feet toward the ceiling, while the doctor resisted such movement with his hands. The peripheral nerves were being tested, those that innervate the postural muscles holding one upright in gravity, so it was imperative that the patient only lift their legs slightly and maintain this pressure for at least two seconds. This test was for atlas, the top cervical vertebra. Instructing patients to rotate their feet while the doctor provided resistance and checking relative leg length was used to test axis. Some clinicians prefer to have the toes rotate outward. I had the patients pull their heels together. This corresponds to the rotation of the head on the neck, 50% of which occurs at the level of C2. <o:p></o:p>
Although many chiropractors that utilize the Blair technique do not adjust the lower cervicals, I did in this study. Dr Blair died before getting below C4 in his analysis and adjusting technique protocol. I agree with Blair that until the upper cervical spine is cleared of subluxation, adjusting the lower cervicals will not hold. But in my experience, when there is a significant “kink” in the lower cervicals caused by a whiplash injury, a specific lower cervical adjustment will help the upper cervical adjustments hold significantly longer. This is why I developed Prill type tests for the lower cervicals; C5, C6 and C7. (39)<o:p></o:p>
Thermographs of the cervical spine were utilized using a Tytron C-300 instrument. These were used to develop a pattern of subluxation in order to determine when to adjust. A graph reading that is static and persistent over time is considered to be the patient's pattern. (40, 41) When it was determined that the patient was in a pattern of subluxation, a toggle recoil adjustment was performed on atlas, with the patient in a side-posture position, or a Pierce technique adjustment was performed with the patient prone. Side posture was used when laterality was the main component of the subluxation. The term used for this type of misalignment is translation, and most often occurs with a side impact trauma, for instance, a “T-bone” type of automobile accident. When posteriority was the major component of the subluxation, the prone position was favored. This misalignment usually is the result of the typical “rear ended” type of automobile accident.<o:p></o:p>
A Thuli chiropractic table, using the cervical drop piece was utilized. For side posture adjustments the headpiece was set to drop straight down, and with prone adjustments, it was set to drop down and forward. The patient was then rested for fifteen minutes and rechecked, to make sure that the pattern had been broken. All 139 patients were adjusted on the second visit, after it was found that they were in a pattern of subluxation. They were rested, rechecked, and 133 out of 139 were found to be balanced. The six that were not balanced were adjusted again, rested and balanced when rechecked a second time. Most are now under maintenance care, being checked on a monthly basis.<o:p></o:p>
All patients filled in a questionnaire prior to their first adjustment. They were asked to rate the three major symptoms of Meniere’s; vertigo, loss of hearing and tinnitus, and seven secondary symptoms; nausea and/or vomiting, ear pressure, migraines, headaches, brain fog, neck stiffness and/or pain and sinus pressure and/or pain. These symptoms were rated numerically between 0 and 10, with 0 representing the absence of that symptom and 10 representing that that symptom was the worst the patient could possibly imagine. The questionnaire was filled in again after six weeks, one year (42) and again after a minimum of two years. (Copy of questionnaire at end of this document)<o:p></o:p>
Results<o:p></o:p>
Although all symptoms included in the questionnaire averaged lower scores at six weeks, one year and two years, only vertigo and the associated nausea and vomiting were lowered dramatically. Vertigo averaged 8.5 before cervical specific chiropractic adjustments. After six weeks it lowered to 3.0, after one year it was down to 2.3, and after two years it was down to 1.4. After two years, nausea and/or vomiting was lowered from 7.0 to 1.3. The only negative side effect noted was an increase in the frequency and magnitude of headaches in three patients. For them headaches increased an average of 2.3 to 5.7. <o:p></o:p>
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These improvements made a significant difference for 135 out of 139 patients, effecting whether or not they could work, drive and/or have a positive relationship with their spouse. (Health Talk II DVD’s of Meniere’s patients discussing these changes are available.) They might get dizzy, but would not have vertigo. They might get nauseas, but would no longer vomit. For those that still had attacks, they occurred less often, lasted for a shorter duration and were not as intense. Recovery time was also significantly shorter.<o:p></o:p>
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Example of a Typical Case History with Results <o:p></o:p>
Jack first presented with left sided Meniere’s on June 11, 2001. He was diagnosed by an Ear, Nose and Throat specialist based on the results of a normal MRI of the brain, positive audiological examination for hearing loss, and an abnormal bithermal caloric test (ENG). He was referred to the Michigan Ear Institute, where endolymphatic sac decompression surgery was recommended. He declined surgery and received a letter recommending that he apply for disability benefits, which were granted by the State of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Michigan</st1:state></st1:place>.<o:p></o:p>
Case history included a rear ended type of automobile accident at 45 mph in 1980. Meniere’s symptoms started in 1994 with frequent bouts of vertigo lasting from one day to one week, accompanied by nausea and vomiting. Complaints included constant ear fullness and tinnitus, and frequent concomitant cervicalgia and headaches. He had open heart surgery in 1998. <o:p></o:p>
Jack presented with a 1” short left leg relative to his right, ½” right cervical syndrome and positive C1 and C5 Prill tests. Cervical x-ray analysis provided a listing of PIR for atlas and posterior C5. He was adjusted twice during his first week of care. The next week he presented balanced and was vertigo free. His wife said that his voice had changed. He reported being able to walk four times as far. <o:p></o:p>
At six weeks, according to his Meniere’s questionnaire, vertigo was down to 2 from 10, nausea/vomiting down to 0 from 10 and ear pressure 1 from 10. He went just over one year with no vertigo. After one adjustment, he was vertigo free for an additional two and one half years. His next adjustment held for an additional year and one half. He has not needed an adjustment for the past two and one half years.<o:p></o:p>
Example of a Typical Before and After Thermograph<o:p></o:p>
The following photograph is of a patient with right unilateral Meniere’s, before her first adjustment, and fifteen minutes post adjustment.<o:p></o:p>
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Example of a Typical Pre and Post Cervical X-ray<o:p></o:p>
The following photograph of a cervical A-P Open Mouth x-ray demonstrates an atlas that is posterior and inferior on the left. Notice that the lateral edge of the superior surface of the right articulation of atlas underlaps its articulation with Occiput, creating a subluxation with the listing PIL. This symptomatic patient has right unilateral Meniere’s. The photo to the right was taken six weeks post initial adjustment. Two upper cervical adjustments were performed. Atlas appears to be in juxtaposition. The patient was off all medications and symptom free.
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Discussion<o:p></o:p>
All 139 patients showed evidence of upper cervical subluxation upon neurological examination, and all exhibited both evidence of a history of whiplash and an existing atlas subluxation in radiographs. One hundred thirty out of 139 patients had posterior and inferior atlas listings, with atlas laterality on the opposite side of the involved ear. It took an average of fifteen years from the time of the head/neck trauma until the onset of Meniere’s type symptoms.<o:p></o:p>
Meniere’s disease not only includes the symptom complex consisting of attacks of vertigo, low-frequency hearing loss and tinnitus, but comprises symptoms related to the Eustachian tube, the upper cervical spine, the temporomandibular joints and the autonomic nervous system. (43) The major clinical features of MD, unilaterality and the onset of symptoms in adulthood are compatible with an acquired event. From eleven countries, many clinicians both chiropractic and medical report cases in which cervical manipulation to correct functional spinal pathology has cured tinnitus and improved hearing, often in cases where the auditory problems have followed motor vehicle whiplash injuries. The great majority of cases involve the upper cervical spine. (44) Medical and chiropractic research has established a connection between spinal trauma and numerous neurological conditions besides Meniere's disease, including multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, Trigeminal neuralgia, epilepsy and migraine headache. (45, 46, 47, 48) Chiropractors are well acquainted with the correlation between cervical spine dysfunction and neuro-otological symptoms such as tinnitus, vertigo, neuralgia and sudden hearing loss. (49)<o:p></o:p>
Physicians often make the mistake of thoroughly examining only the area of chief complaint. When relevant, I believe it is prudent to start at the nucleus of the cranial nerve or center that supplies function to that area. For example, the brain stem for balance disorders (CN VIII), irritable bowel syndrome (CN X, Vagus), high blood pressure (vasomotor center) and sleep disorders (reticular formation).<o:p></o:p>
One study of 133 patients diagnosed with Meniere’s disease that were referred to ear surgeons determined that eight years later, 70% of the 83 that got endolymphatic subarachnoid shunt surgery were vertigo free, but of the 50 that declined the surgery, 71% were actually vertigo free. (50) In another study of 243 consecutive patients with a Meniere’s disease diagnose that varied from recent to 41 years, no difference was found in the frequency, intensity or duration of vertigo attacks. Seventy five percent of patients who had MD for more than 20 years considered their vertigo attacks severe and 36% still had attacks 1 to 4 times per week. Nausea associated with vertigo was most common among those with a long history of the disease. (51)<o:p></o:p>
Although statistics and percentages are useful for dealing with large numbers of patients, because Meniere’s disease symptoms and prognosis vary so greatly for each individual patient, they are useless when it comes to one particular patient. Some doctors say Meniere’s burns itself out. Burnout refers to a condition where Meniere’s disease has progressed to the point where it has finally destroyed the entire vestibular function in the affected ear. Although the patient may compensate for this loss in other ways and become rotational vertigo free, the other symptoms continue to worsen. <o:p></o:p>
It is possible that when the top cervical vertebra partially slips off from one of its two articulations, it puts a small amount of pressure on the spinal cord where it meets the medulla<o:p></o:p>
oblongata, irritating it and creating swelling in the area after a period of time. This inflammatory edema could irritate the lower cranial nerves and/or partially block the adjacent auditory tube. In the case of whiplash, the symptoms are usually exaggerated by an additional lower cervical subluxation.<o:p></o:p>
Conclusion<o:p></o:p>
It is possible that the patients recovered through spontaneous remission or because they believed their problems had been discovered and improved, creating a placebo effect. The average time span before chiropractic intervention and the long-term clinically-documented neurophysiological improvements after initial adjustments weigh against such possible effects. In addition, these were 136 consecutive Meniere’s patients, of which one hundred and thirty had posterior and inferior atlas listings with laterality on the opposite side of ear involvement.<o:p></o:p>
All patients with a history of vertigo or dizziness should be questioned about a history of trauma, especially whiplash from an automobile accident, contact sports injury, or serious falls. Patients often forget these accidents, thinking that they were not hurt because they did not break any bones and were not bleeding. Patients with a history of both vertigo and trauma<o:p></o:p>
should be referred to an upper cervical specific chiropractor for examination.<o:p></o:p>
References<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
1. Prosper Meniere Society, Dept. of Otolaryngology, Head and Neck Surgery, <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Arkansas</st1:placename> for Medical Science, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Little Rock</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">AR.</st1:state></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
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8. Dodson K, Sismanis A, Kyrodimos E, Intratympanic Dexamethasone Perfusion for the Treatment of Meniere’s Disease, 26^th Politzer Society Meeting, Oct 13-16, 2007, Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland, OH.<o:p></o:p>
9. Smith WK, Sankar V, Pfleiderer AG.A national survey amongst <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region></st1:place> otolaryngologists regarding the treatment of Meniere's disease. Laryngol Otol. 2005 Feb;119(2):102-5 <o:p></o:p>
10. Luetje M, Clarence M. A Critical Comparison of Results of Endolymphatic Subarachnoid Shunt and Endolymphatic Sac Incision Operations, Am J Otology March 1988; 9:2.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
11. Feijen R, Wit H, Albers F, Treatment of Meniere’s Disease with Intermittent Middle Ear Pressure, Fifth International Symposium on Meniere’s Disease & Inner Ear Homeostasis Disorders, April 2-5, 2005, Los Angeles, CA.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
12. Yamakawa, K. Uber die pathologische Veranderung bei einem Meniere-Kranken. J Otorhinolaryngol Soc Jpn. 1938;4:2310-2312.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
13. Knox G. Surgical Management of Meniere's Syndrome, Grand Rounds Archives, 1994.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
14. Gates, G, Unresolved Clinical Issues with Meniere’s Disease, Fifth International Symposium on Meniere’s Disease & Inner Ear Homeostasis Disorders, House Ear Institute, April 2-5, 2005, Los Angels, CA.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
15. Burcon M, Upper Cervical Protocol and Results for 100 Meniere’s Patients, 25^th Anniversary of the Prosper Meniere Society and the 12^th International Symposium and Workshops on Inner Ear Surgery and Medicine, Zell am <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Zimmer</st1:city>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Austria</st1:country-region></st1:place>, March 2006.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
16. Savastano M (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Savastano%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Giacomelli L (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Giacomelli%20L%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Marioni G (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Marioni%20G%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus). Non-specific immunological determinations in Meniere's disease: any role in clinical practice? Eur Arch Otorhinolaryngol. (https://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:AL_get%28this,%20%27jour%27,%20%27Eur%20Arch%20Otorhinolaryngol.%27%29;) 2007 Jan;264(1):15-9. Epub 2006 Oct 11.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
17. Furman, Joseph M, Whitney, Suzan L. Physical Therapy, Feb 2000; 80:2.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
18. Terrett A. Cerebral dysfunction: a theory to explain some of the effects of chiropractic therapy. Chiropr Tech 1993; 5:168-73.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
19. Rosenberg W, Salame K, Shumerick K, Tew J. Compression of the upper cervical spinal cord causing symptoms of brainstem compromise. A Case Report. Spine 1998; 23:1497-500.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
20. Fitzgerald D. Head trauma: Hearing loss and dizziness. J Trauma.1996;40:3,488-496.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
21. Biesinger E. Vertigo caused by disorders of the cervical vertebral column; diagnosis and treatment. Adv Otorhinolaryngol. 1998;39:44-51.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
22. Hollinshead W, Rosse C. Textbook of Anatomy, Fourth Edition. <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:city></st1:place>: Harper & Row, 1995.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
23. Radtke A, Migraine and Meniere’s Disease: Is There a Link? Neurology, 2002; 59(11):1700-1704.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
24. Teixido M, Migraine Management for the Otolaryngologist, 13^th International Symposium and Workshops on Inner Ear Medicine and Surgery, Zell im Zillertal, Austria, March 1-8, 2008.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
25. Salt A. A Survey of the Effects of Pressure on Meniere's Disease Symptoms. 2000.<o:p></o:p>
URL:https://oto.wustl.edu/men/pressure (https://oto.wustl.edu/men/pressure).<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
26. Burkhard F, Anderson C, Autonomic Control of Eustachian Tube Function in the Anaesthetized Rat, The 25^th Anniversary of the Prosper Meniere Society, March 4-11, 2006, Zell im Zillertal, Austria.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
27. Burcon M. Upper Cervical Protocol for Ten Meniere’s Patients, Upper Cervical Subluxation Complex, A Review of the Chiropractic and Medical Literature, Kirk Ericksen, Lippincott, Williams & Wilkens, Baltimore, MD 2004, pp 284-286.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
28. Palmer DC, BJ. The Subluxation Specific The Adjustment Specific. <st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">Iowa</st1:state>: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">School</st1:placename></st1:place> of Chiropractic, 1934.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
29. Palmer DC, BJ. Chiropractic clinical controlled research. Volume XXV. <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">IA</st1:state></st1:place>: The BJ Palmer Chiropractic Clinic, 1951.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
30. Palmer DC, BJ. History in the Making. Volume XXXV. <st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">Iowa</st1:state>: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">School</st1:placename></st1:place> of Chiropractic, 1957.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
31. Sherman L. Neurocalometer-neurocalographneurotempometer research. Eight BJ Palmer<o:p></o:p>
Chiropractic Clinic Cases. <st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">IA</st1:state>: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">School</st1:placename></st1:place> of Chiropractic; 1951.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
32. Blair W. The Chiropractic Story silently told in a medical museum. <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">United States of America</st1:country-region></st1:place>, 1973.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
33. Overview of Blair Cervical Technique, Council on Chiropractic Practice, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Chandler</st1:city></st1:place>, AZ October 2-3, 1995.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
34. Addington E. Blair Cervical Spinographic Analysis, Conference of Research and Education, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Monterey</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">CA</st1:state></st1:place> June 21-23, 1991.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
35. Blair W. Blair upper cervical spinographic research; primary and adaptive malformations; procedures for solving malformation problems; Blair principle of<o:p></o:p>
occipito-atlanto misalignment. <st1:city w:st="on">Davenport</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">IA</st1:state>: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Palmer</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">College</st1:placename></st1:place> of Chiropractic; 1968.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
36. Burcon M, Parkinson’s disease, Meniere’s syndrome, Trigeminal neuralgia and Bell’s palsy: One cause, One Correction, Dynamic Chiropractor, May 19, 2003, Vol 21, Issue 11.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
37. Prill, C, The Prill Chiropractic Spinal Analysis Technique, 2001.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
38. Knutson G. Tonic Neck Reflexes, Leg Length Inequality and Atlanto-occipital Fat Pad<o:p></o:p>
Impingement: An Atlas Subluxation Complex Hypothesis, Chiropr Res J 1997;4(2):64-76.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
39. Burcon M, Olsen E, Modified Prill Leg Check Protocol, 11^th Annual Vertebral Subluxation Research Conference, <st1:placename w:st="on">Sherman</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">College</st1:placetype> of Straight Chiropractic, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Spartanburg</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">SC</st1:state></st1:place>, Oct 2003. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
40. Hart J, Boone R. Pattern Analysis of Paraspinal Temperatures: A Descriptive Report. J Vert Sublux Res 1999-2000:3(4).<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
41. Burcon M. BJ’s $50,000 ‘Timpograph still captures our imagination after more than fifty years, Chiropractic Economics, Nov/Dec 1995.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
42. Burcon M. Cervical Specific Protocol and Results for 100 Meniere’s Patients, 26^th Politzer Society Meeting, Oct 13-16 2007, Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland, OH.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
44. Franz B, Anderson C, The potential role of joint injury and Eustachian tube dysfunction in the genesis of secondary Meniere’s disease, Int Tinnitus J. 2007;13(2):132-7.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
45. Terrett A. Vertebrogenic Hearing Deficit, the Spine, and Spinal Manipulation Therapy: A Search to Validate the D.D. Palmer/Harvey Lillard Experience, Chiropr J Aust 2002; 32(1):14-26.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
46. Elster E, Sixty Patients with Chronic Vertigo Undergoing Upper Cervical Care to Correct Vertebral Subluxation: A Retrospective Analysis, Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research, Nov 2006.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
47. Elster E. Upper Cervical Protocol for Five Multiple Sclerosis Patients. Today's Chiropractic November 2000.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
48. Kessinger R, Boneva D. Vertigo, Tinnitus, and Hearing Loss in the Geriatric Patient J Manipulative Physiol Ther June 2000; 23:5.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
49. Ericksen K, Editorial Comment p 280, Upper Cervical Subluxation Complex, A Review of the Chiropractic and Medical Literature, Lippincott, Williams & Wilkins, 2004.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
50. Silvestein H, Smouha E, Jones R, Natural history vs. surgery for Meniere’s disease, Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg, 1989; 100(1):6-16.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
51. Havia M, Kentala E, Progression of symptoms of dizziness in Meniere’s disease, Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg, 2004 Apr;130(4):431-5.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
MENIERE’S QUESTIONNAIRE<o:p></o:p>


<o:p> </o:p>

Thank you for participating in our Meniere’s study. Please answer the following questions and return this form to Burcon Chiropractic. Answer questions with a number between 0 and 10, with 0 representing that you do not have that problem, 10 representing that the problem is the worst you can imagine.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
In column A put the number for how you felt before your first adjustment at Burcon Chiropractic. In column B put the number for how you have been feeling since your last adjustment.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Patient Name _______________________________ Today’s date __________________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Major Symptoms A B<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>
1. Vertigo, dizziness or lack of balance: __________ __________ <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
2. Loss of hearing: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
3. Tinnitus (ringing in the ears): __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Secondary Symptoms<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
4. Nausea/vomiting: __________ __________ <o:p></o:p>
5. Ear Pressure: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
6. Migraines: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
7. Headaches: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
8. Brain fog: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
9. Neck stiffness/pain: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
10. Sinus pressure/pain: __________ __________<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Comments:<o:p></o:p>






[/b][/b]

[Braggi]

Yeah, I do have something against psychiatrists. They pass out dope like it's Pez candy. Sometimes it is genuinely necessary, but all too often it is a "cheap fix" that insurance will cover, which seems to be what is really driving how medical care is practiced in this country. ...

Well, now we have something to talk about. You see, I agree with you.

I know a quite a few psychiatrists as personal friends. Some I've known for nearly 20 years so I've watched their lives change over that time.

I don't have time now to share what I'm thinking, but perhaps it should be a new thread. The money thing has perverted so much of medical practice, but none more than psychiatry which used to be a more noble field than it is now.

More later,

-Jeff

[Melodymama]

Dynamique wrote:
"Horseshit!!...Jeff, there's an old Chinese saying: "it is better to be thought a fool than to open the mouth and prove it." There is a lot of bad medical advice and pseudo-science flying around on this board, and just about all of it comes from you.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. PUT A CORK IN IT! "


I am offended by such a personal attack. I have found most of Jeff's many posts to be informative, calm, thoughtful and often funny. There is no reason to demean someone because they disagree with you. Getting worked up enough to sound this angry in writing is not good for the health. Most medical issues are enhanced and aggrivated by emotional tension and imbalance. Along with all therapies or regimens, just learning to relax and become less excitable is important to the outcome. I have had to learn this (and relearn this) in order to deal with many health issues and it takes much practice.


Please, can all of us learn to be a bit more accepting of diverse views and all the great learning in debate and discussion. Spewing out nasty words is just not conducive to any good outcome, medical or intellectual. Laura

["Mad" Miles]

Spewing out nasty words is just not conducive to any good outcome, medical or intellectual. Laura


Laura,

Thanks for that. I was thinking much the same thing. And I also want to give kudos to Jeff for his amazingly tolerant response which precedes your post. I would not have been so forbearing and generous. I might have simply placed Dynamique on my ignore list (Love that feature Barry, I didn't start to use it until the arrival of the paleo-conservative trolls last winter, it's saved me a lot of aggro!) or I might have launched a full verbal broadside (within the bounds of waccobb conscious community propriety of course! But we all know how broad those bounderies are...) so his extremely tolerant and kind response was/is a true lesson in non-violent communication.

That said, Jeff has pushed my buttons once and a while, and he's certainly not alone. And I'm sure I've done the same for others.

There was an amazingly ignorant and zenophobic comment by someone, I've forgotten who and don't care to be reminded, about Japanese culture made in this thread recently. I left it alone (until now) because sometime it's best to: "Let sleeping dogs lie."

So thank you both (Melodymama and Braggi) for standing up to be counted in the ranks of the tolerant, kind, thick-skinned and civil among us.

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

P.S. Melodymama/Laura, How was yesterday evening's Backyard Concert? I've missed the last two because by the time I get home around 4:30 at the end of my 4/10 week, I'm pretty burnt, and hitting rush hour to go to SW SR becomes prohibitive given the comforts and attractions of my cocoon. Lame excuse I know, but there it is.

"M"M

[broadbandersnatch]

We just completed a DVD interviewing 9 people who had the same conditions: ringing in the ear (Tinnitus), IBS, projectile vomiting, headaches, spinning room. THEY ALL found their answer through Upper Cervical Care. Marin county has some good Upper Cervical doctors. You can find a list on the Links page of www.UpperCervicalAdvocates.com . The DVD "Health Talk II" is available in the catalog there, also.

Bless you. I believe this is your answer! There is Hope! Rhonda

Believe me, for the majority of tinnitus sufferers no upper cervical care or any modality that focuses on physical manipulation of the spine (or any other part of the body for that matter,although there a few that might at least temporarily make one forget one's T!) will make a difference. I am not referring to Meniere's disease, which is a specific syndrome that can cause severe tinnitus and hearing loss as well as horrible vertigo etc. It is a relatively rare condition that is sometimes falsely diagnosed. I am not going to argue against the merits of the treatment discussed here with regards to treating Meniere's. Furthermore, as western medicine offers very little other than palliative care, if I was diagnosed with this terrible condition I would certainly seek out any treatment that might have a positive effect on the symptoms.

If the only symptom is tinnitus, the first thing that must be done is to see a good ENT and rule out more serious or life threatening conditions such as acoustic neuroma, tumors, infections, cancers etc. Once you have ruled out these, you can take a deep breath and consider your condition either as a disease that must be cured or an annoyance that can be transcended. As it turns out ,the
'cure' may lie in the latter part of the last statement.

More often than not, tinnitus is due to damage to the little "hairs" in the cochlea which leads to nerve damage and hearing loss. This is most commonly caused by acoustic trauma, but there are other known causes such as inner ear infections or ototoxic pharmaceutical drugs. Many antibiotics are ototoxic. Even ED drugs like Viagra have been known to cause hearing loss and tinnitus. You can Google ototoxic drugs and find a surprisingly long list, including such seemingly benign drugs as aspirin.

There are rare instances in which tinnitus may be caused by TMJ or other physical problems that may be correctable through physical manipulation or corrective surgery. In the vast majority of cases, there is nothing one can do other than habituate. There are modalities such as TRT (Tinnitus Retraining Therapy and Cognitive Therapy that some sufferers have claimed helped, but for the most part the majority of remedies are nothing more than snake oil. There is absolutely no substantial proof that gingko, accupuncture or any herbal remedy actually helps with this malady. Giving up coffee or alcohol may make you feel better about yourself, but most T sufferers report no substantial decrease in their T from doing so.

If you want to throw your money away, there are plenty of people who are willing to take it. But believe me, having been through it, it's all completely bogus. My advice is to save your money, and learn to meditate, relax and enjoy your life. The best weapon you have against the big T is to learn to ignore it as countless sufferers have had to do. Eventually, you will stop noticing it for periods of time and in time it may actually go away.

One theory of why we have tinnitus is the following- It's sort of like phantom limb pain: Your brain is trying to parse the frequencies it used to hear in a certain range but can't because the nerves are damaged, so the brain interprets the aberrant or missing signals as noise instead.

Remember too that nearly everybody experiences a certain amount of tinnitus. There was a study done in which a group of people with "normal" hearing were placed in an anechoic chamber (perfectly silent) and after a period of time ALL of them experienced tinnitus! Many continued to hear it long after they left the chamber! What does that tell you about tinnitus? As a cartoon Beatle once said, "it's all in the mind".

Sorry, I wish there really was an answer, but there isn't. And the good news is: it's going to be OK anyway....eventually. Trust me on this. I've been there.

[Braggi]

... One theory of why we have tinnitus is the following. It's sort of like phantom limb pain: ...

Dear broadbandersnatch,

I appreciate the calm tone of your post as well as the content, but I also want to remind you that tinnitus can be a symptom of a much more dangerous illness or infection, as it was in my case.

While your comments may be true, even for the majority of cases, there are some cases where investigating tinnitus could lead to life saving diagnosis and treatments.

-Jeff

[Dynamique]

thank you for that p.o.v.


Dynamique wrote:
"Horseshit!!...Jeff, there's an old Chinese saying: "it is better to be thought a fool than to open the mouth and prove it." There is a lot of bad medical advice and pseudo-science flying around on this board, and just about all of it comes from you.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. PUT A CORK IN IT! "


I am offended by such a personal attack. I have found most of Jeff's many posts to be informative, calm, thoughtful and often funny. There is no reason to demean someone because they disagree with you. Getting worked up enough to sound this angry in writing is not good for the health. Most medical issues are enhanced and aggrivated by emotional tension and imbalance. Along with all therapies or regimens, just learning to relax and become less excitable is important to the outcome. I have had to learn this (and relearn this) in order to deal with many health issues and it takes much practice.


Please, can all of us learn to be a bit more accepting of diverse views and all the great learning in debate and discussion. Spewing out nasty words is just not conducive to any good outcome, medical or intellectual. Laura

[Braggi]

We all have our threshold, and I reached mine with Braggi and his pontificating -- especially the erroneous pontificating.

There's a hand feature that Waccobb has for these situations: the IGNORE list! ...

I don't usually respond to this kind of post, but now that I've actually earned a spot on somebody's ignore list I suppose a celebration of sorts is in order.

"Erroneous?" I don't think Dynamique pointed out anything I stated that was in error (correct me if I'm wrong). I usually research my comments. Sometimes I make mistakes in these posts and I have no problem taking responsibility for the errors. Convince me I'm wrong and I'll apologize. Dynamique's errors in fact and logic have been pointed out by others so I'll refrain from taking that task on.

Back to psychiatry, which I'll continue "pontificating" on, since it's a topic I know very well, and I know there must be at least two or three readers still following along.

Most of the psychiatrists I know went through their psychiatry training at UC Irvine in the program headed by Roger Walsh, MD, PhD. Those who know Ken Wilber's work should be familiar with Roger since they are practically alter-egos in the transpersonal psychiatry/psychology literature. One of Roger's most famous teachings is, "It's the relationship that heals." All the therapy, all the medication, all the programs and all the exercises are just framework for the relationship between the healer and the patient to develop. By providing a healthy model for an ethical relationship, a good psychiatrist can offer the patient something he or she might never have previously experienced. That example can go a long way, for many patients, toward the healing of other relationships, and so the circle of healing expands. The crime of the insurance companies and in particular, the HMOs (OK, let's mention the government programs as well) is the interference in the relationship between healer and patient.

The idea, for instance, that it's no problem to switch a therapist in the middle of a series of therapy sessions should be anathema to managers, and yet, this happens all the time. The notion that a psychiatrist's relationship to a patient should consist of 15 minute, or in some generous institutions, 30 minute "med check" sessions, while lesser trained but lower priced MFCCs or LCSWs handle the "real therapy" is criminal, in my opinion. Now even those therapists are being demoted to "case managers" and given ever growing case loads and ever smaller time slots in which to work with the clients. There truly is a war on therapy and it is costing us as a nation dearly. I offer the growing jail and prison populations as evidence as well as the astonishingly high rate of suicide we suffer. We are an emotionally messed up nation and we need all the help we can get.

Please understand that it is the HMOs and the corporate paid for "managed care" insurance companies that are so narrowly defining the role of the psychiatrist in modern medicine. This is certainly not the will of psychiatrists, most of whom will claim to be a therapist first and a pill prescriber second. Most insurance companies would like to relegate psychiatrists to the job of prescribing meds and that's it. When I hear someone complain that all psychiatrists are is dope pushers it really pushes my buttons. In many cases, they will continue to prescribe a minor drug at a dose so low it has little impact on the patient because they know it's the only way the patient will be able to afford the tiny little visits the psychiatrist actually uses for therapy, even though this is technically stretching the rules.

Very few psychiatrists want to do medication only work. Most would prefer the good old days of the "50 minute hour." Those days are long gone if you want insurance to pay for it.

And now a quick argument to avoid using insurance coverage at all if you wish to see a psychiatrist: you really don't want your medical records to show you have ever been on psych meds. It could cost you a job in the future, or could get you rejected by an insurance company, or could even cost you getting approved for a mortgage. It's hard to know who's reading your medical records and the only way to keep your records totally private is to see your psychiatrist or therapist privately and pay for them out of pocket. That way you will have reclaimed control over the parameters of your therapeutic relationship. The sad fact is, it costs money, and most of us can't afford it. I wish I had a good answer to that problem. I'm sorry I don't.

Wishing good health to all,

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Braggi wrote:
Foul!

"Naturopaths" are NOT medical doctors, have never been to medical school and do not have a medical license.

Do not be fooled! Real doctors have MD or DO on their business cards. "ND" does not mean a credentialed medical doctor. ...


... In most states of the U.S., including California, a person who has completed a course of study at an accredited naturapathic college and passed the licensing exam will receive a Naturapathic Doctor license and then can practice as a naturapathic physician. They can do some procedures and order lab tests.

The practices of allopathy and naturapathy are different, so the two degrees and licenses are by no means interchangeable. However, they are both "doctors." ...

Both "doctors"? Certainly not both "physicians" and certainly not both "medical doctors" because those terms have a legal definition and "naturopath" does not meet the definition. The term "physician" and the term "medical doctor" are interchangeable. They mean that the person went to an accredited "medical school" and now bear the title: MD or DO. Naturopaths do not go to medical school or they wouldn't call themselves naturopaths. They would call themselves medical doctors.

-Jeff

PS. I can also do some procedures and order lab tests. That doesn't make me a doctor of any kind.

[phooph]

Phooph, nobody is arguing with you that there are problems with the medical establishment. Keep your documents. We agree.

You ask for evidence, then you refuse to look at it.



However, how about the problems with "alternative" treatments? As Dixon pointed out, there are many. And I don't really believe there is such a thing as "alternative." There are treatments that have proven to help, some that have been proven not to help, and some that need more study. Real medicine embraces new wisdom. That's the beauty of science. That's what open mindedness is. Science.

I agree, however there are many treatments currently promoted by the medical community that are both ineffective and dangerous yet they get a pass because they are administered by "real doctors." How may people has Vioxx killed yet you would consider those using ginger, curcurmin, olive oil, and other natural anti-inflammatory agents to be risking their health?



Unfortunately, his approach isn't new and hasn't borne fruit in the past. The Ph "theory" looks good on paper (or on screen) but the fact is that the human body guards its Ph balance very carefully whether a person is healthy or chronically ill. A very slight variation causes death. I hope your Roman (interesting that the site doesn't even capitalize the word) oncologist has success and publishes his results. How's that for open mindedness?

He is injecting baking soda directly into the tumor. He is having enough success that it has gotten attention world wide and has a group of patients claiming he has successfully cured them. Now you are going to ask about clinical studies which take millions of dollars. I don't know any doctors who can afford such an effort. Maybe Arm and Hammer will pick up the tab. :rofl2:



I'll just pick one misleading if not entirely false statement from that: (Naturally-occurring plant chemicals cannot be patented.)

Actually, one can patent almost anything including human cells, amazingly enough. Everything from extraction methods to compounding methods to delivery systems to novel packaging can be patented. If a medicine is found to be useful and generally safe, it's on store shelves.

Your understanding of patent law is seriously lacking. Naturally occurring chemicals cannot be patented. The genomes of unique cell lines may be patented. Therefore it would be possible to patent a bacteria engineered to produce insulin, but insulin itself is not patentable. It is a naturally occurring substance. The bacteria that produce it are identifiable by their genome which differs from all other genomes, therefore it is unique and thus patentable.



Medical science is hamstrung by the sheer volume of plants that need to be studied. It costs tens of millions of $$ just to study a single compound from a plant and most such plants contain dozens of compounds that are promising.

My point exactly. The sticking point is the patentabliy of the end product which allows for the recapture of the original investment and some profit on top of that. If the naturally occurring chemical cannot be tweaked into a unique chemical formula that is patentable the investment become a loss. Drug companies are in business to make profits and keep shareholders happy. They are not alturistic organizations. They had to be forced by legislation to produce "orphaned drugs" in which the number of patients are too small to make the production of their required drug profitable. There is no equivilant for drugs derrived from naturally occuring substances that are unpatentable.

Now, come up with the list of drugs that are "miracle cures" that "Big Pharma" has studied, proven to work, and have buried. That was your claim. Please post the list.

-Jeff[/quote]

Why? You will ignore it.

[phooph]

Phooh I am really sorry to hear about your Mothers death at the hand of doctors. I am sure that remains a big grief for you. My Grandmother died from overprescribing medications and getting a bleeding ulcer.

My mother died in 1968. My grieving is long over. It did alert me to the fact that medicine is an imperfect science and prone to fads. The fad that killed my mother and many others was the infatuation with radioactivity. I have since met others who have lost loved ones or had their own health compromised by it.


However, I realize that when it comes to actually first finding out exactly what is going on in the body the MD type doctors has several legs up. They have the scanning devices and the laboratories to actually really find out whats going on. Before any treatment can be found alternative or traditional we need to know what exactly we are treating. For that reason when needed the MD is my first stop. I might not take their preferred form of treatment - then again I might. It all depends.

Any diagnosis warrants further research on my own into possible side effects of western medicine, as well as possible alternative treatments and how efficient they might be.

I agree that high tech equipment can be useful for diagnosing problems. I have made use of it when needed, often finding it just as useful for ruling out a problem as in identifying one. On the other hand, a good acupuncturist can often diagnose a problem long before western medical diagnostics are able to detect it as they can observe an imbalance that will later produce a disease if not corrected. This is an observed reality. The challenge is in translating the eastern medical terminology into one understood by western modalities. I find a combination of the two to be more helpful than either one independently. It helps to have had enough exposure to both to be able to cross reference them.




Incidentally the chiropractors did work very hard to sciencitifically prove their modality of healing and I for one deeply appreciated it.

Acupuncture has actually also been scientifically studied and shown some promising results. Especially to lower pain. In some ways the efficacy of acupuncture has not been scientifically proven. Some of it because it hasnt been tested, and some of the tested has come out either inconclusive or negative to acupuncture. Other scientific tests has shown positive results. In short - this healing modality needs further testing before it is dismissed. An inconclusive test does not mean that acupuncture doesnt work - it just means we dont know yet if it works.

The NIH did research on acupuncture and found it effective for pain control which was the limit that western medicine could understand. The failure to fully embrace it lies greatly in the differences in the language between traditional oriental medicine and western medicine and reluctance to venture into areas of medicine already staked out by drugs and surgery. Chi is not measurable in western science and the concept of every organ in the body essentially having a direct relationship to every other organ makes no sense from this viewpoint.


The drug company had ruled him out of the clinical trial because his disease was too advanced.

This is a common practice. Patients most likely to recover are used in trials to skew the figures on success rates.



Speaking of which - there are many alternative treatment forms that does work - even if not scientifically proven. There are herbs that no one has had the finances or inclination to scientifically prove works - they might still work. In those cases all we have is anecdotal evidence to guide us. St. Johns wort has been extensively scientifically tested in Germany, but the US is too arrogant to be respectful of those tests.

There are many treatments tested, vetted, and implemented in foreign countries that are forbidden here for simple business reasons. For instance, the Japanese have a safe DPT vaccine that is illegal here. Europe and Asia have quite credible scientific communities capable of creating and testing effective products, but when it comes to a threat to our drug industry from outside competitors, guess who looses? The patients.



The problem with a lot of alternative treatment practitioners lie in a lack of honesty. Someone who claims "all you need is faith and an openness to change to heal" is taking a gigantic risk. They also easily let themselves off the hook. If there is no improvement in the patient then the practitioner can always claim its the clients own fault for not changing. This switch and bait is quite common in the alternative market, its damaging and dangerous and it is a tactic often being used by the most damaging of cults.

I don't know that a "lot of alternative treatment practitioners" lack honesty but some do. They are no different from those in the main stream community who do the same. Not everything works all the time for everyone in both sectors. When I was working in acupuncture clinics there was a 15% failure rate, which is consistent with failure rates for mainstream medicine, and 80% of all diseases are self healing.



Anyways to finish out a long post. We will get the best results if traditional western medicine and science works together with more alternative treatment forms to get the most positive results.

Malene

I agree, but first the war on alternative medicine has to end. It was the AMA that back in the early 1800s began this war for economic reasons to eliminate competition in medicine. It drove several valuable modalities out of business including the hygiene and nutrition movement that taught inner city and rural people the importance of cleanliness and eating a healthy diet.

[Dynamique]

yup.


Why? You will ignore it.

[phooph]

Well, now we have something to talk about. You see, I agree with you.

I know a quite a few psychiatrists as personal friends. Some I've known for nearly 20 years so I've watched their lives change over that time.

I don't have time now to share what I'm thinking, but perhaps it should be a new thread. The money thing has perverted so much of medical practice, but none more than psychiatry which used to be a more noble field than it is now.

More later,

-Jeff

The psychiatric profession is no different from the rest of mainstream medicine. The same thing has happened across the board. Drug companies donate large sums to medical schools. They print the text books, help design the courses of study, and provide research grants for grad students. They give doctors perks for prescribing their products.

I used to work for a urologist. When he was out doing rounds at the hospital it got very quiet in the office and when I ran out of work I'd read the medical journals. (He never seemed to have time to read them. Too busy.) I learned from reading the journals that he was ignoring some recommended protocols, breaking several laws including refusing to post a sign in his waiting room that he was a partner in the imaging company on the first floor of the building that he sent almost every patient to for x-rays. He was also heavily prescribing a drug that at that time the medical journals were requesting be used sparingly. He was also sent off to medical conferences by the manufacturer of that drug, Merck Pharmaceuticals, to shill for the company, pushing the very same drug the medical journals were recommending be used cautiously. On returning from his all expenses paid vacation in some resort area with his wife and children, he would then receive a fat check in the mail from Merck. I opened the mail and I saw the checks and the thank you letters as well as the brochures for the conferences.

He was a good boss, a nice guy, and genuinely liked being a doctor and spent a lot of time talking with his patients. They all liked him and so did I. Just the same, he was making decisions based on money and not the best interests of his patients.

I knew another woman, a nurse who had worked for years for the another doctor. She got interested in nutrition and began to realize that a lot of their patients would greatly benefit from learning more about nutrition as a way to improve their health. When she mentioned this to her boss his response was, "I don't want my patients to have that kind of information."

Just last week I was visiting a friend who has a chronic disease and has tried everything out there, mainstream and alternative, and expects to continue to be suffering for the rest of her life. Some things help for a while and eventually stop working. Her greatest relief is from drugs that she knows are damaging her body because her doctor tells her they are. Eventually the drug will stop working and she has to wait in agony till a new drug is available.

She told me a story about her sister who works in an AIDS clinic. AIDS patients get a fungal growth in their mouths called hairy tongue, that can be very awful, sometimes requiring it to be actually cut off of their tongues. Generally it is treated with heavy duty drugs like Nystatin, which can cause unpleasant side effects. Her sister related to her the story of a patient who had this who noticed that it got better when he ate Italian food. He began to test eating various things that were in Italian food and found that it was the garlic that was causing the fungus to die back. He began eating garlic every day and had the fungus under control. He told my friend's sister about it when he came in for a check up. Thinking this would be good for all the patients to know she told the doctor who ran the clinic. She received the usual dismissive rejection.

Keeping patients dependent on drugs is the name of the game.

[Braggi]

Now, come up with the list of drugs that are "miracle cures" that "Big Pharma" has studied, proven to work, and have buried. That was your claim. Please post the list.
-Jeff

Why? You will ignore it.

Please, show one drug that fits this category. I don't think there are any.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... Thinking this would be good for all the patients to know she told the doctor who ran the clinic. She received the usual dismissive rejection.

Keeping patients dependent on drugs is the name of the game.

Phooph, I don't doubt your personal experiences. I do doubt your bottom line because it makes no sense and it flies in the face of my experiences which involve close personal relationships with well over a dozen physicians. I went to a wedding yesterday of one of them.

Doctors have no reason to keep a patient on any drug. That's just nonsense.

I don't have time today to reply point by point to your posts. I hope to get to it tomorrow. I'll just say that my experiences are very different from your own and I can possibly explain the doctor's thinking to every one of your points. You ascribe the most base intentions to doctor's thinking and I'm sure that does happen from time to time. Overall, your guess at doctors' intent is way off base.

-Jeff

[phooph]

Please, show one drug that fits this category. I don't think there are any.

-Jeff

It's not only drugs but other methods as well. One of the most famous - or infamous - is the persecution of a genius who discovered that microbes and cancer cells could be killed with light waves. Although his method worked he was utterly destroyed by the AMA which acts as a watchdog agency for pharmaceutical companies, always ready to annihilate the competition.

https://www.amazon.com/Cancer-Cure-That-Worked-Suppression/dp/0919951309

Lest you think that it is pure hokum, here's an article from New Scientist on someone else who has "discovered" this very same technology.

https://technology.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn12368&print=true

[Braggi]

... https://www.amazon.com/Cancer-Cure-That-Worked-Suppression/dp/0919951309

Lest you think that it is pure hokum, here's an article from New Scientist on someone else who has "discovered" this very same technology.

https://technology.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn12368&print=true

As I suspected, you have no examples of suppressed drugs. Instead you post a nonsense book about a quack. I'll let Amazon reviewers answer:
(BTW, that New Scientist article is talking about something completely different.)
(Oh, and note the number of people who found the first of these reviews "helpful." You can't shake a "true believer," even with facts and history.)

1 of 11 people found the following review helpful:
Royal Ripoff, March 18, 2008
By B. J Robbins (La Quinta, CA United States) - See all my reviews

Rife was not even original. In the first part of the last century, quacks ran rampant all over the U.S. Many had totally worthless machines, like Rife's. Colored lights, radio waves, cylinders containing mysterious substances, machines that diagnosed diseases using a person's blood (granted, today it is possible to diagnose prostate cancer using a blood test, but back then the claims were extrordinarily inaccurate), a goat's gland that cured ED, it was all there, and it was almost impossible to shut down all these imposters. Even the writer Upton Sinclair declared these people to be geniuses, who were going to revolutionize medicine.

And so we come to Dr. William F. Koch, who has been called "the best educated and most successful cancer quack in America." He held a doctorate in chemistry, had an M.D. degree taught histology and embyology. In 1919, Koch announced his discovery of "glyoxide", a mysterious substance that supposedly cured all diseases. The catalyst (glyoxide) is injected into the person, and does not kill the organism causing the disease, but puts the body in such a "frenzy of health" that it produces the means to kill the organism by itself. Sounds great, doesn't it? When government chemists analyzed glyoxide, they found it "indistinguishable from distilled water."

Dr. Albert Abrams of San Francisco with a distinguished mien and orthodox views when he was young, has also been called one of the great quacks in the pseudo-scientific literature. However, he said the following: "The physician is only allowed to THINK he knows it all, but the quack, ungoverned by conscience, is permitted to know he knows it all; and with a fertile mental field for humbuggery, truth can never successfully compete with untruth." This is still true today; it is rampant all over Amazon. Abrams retired with a fortune reported at two million (in 1923 dollars), which he primarily made by renting out his "oscilloclast", a machine he invented in 1920, which supposedly cured diseases by killing
bacteria using the newly discovered radio waves at their proper"vibratory rate."

Doctors were forced to swear that they would not look into the tightly sealed box. Shortly before Abrams' death, however, a team of doctors opened on the oscilloclasts. They found an ohm-meter, rheostat, condenser, and other electrical gadgets which were haphazardly wired together.

Abrams was exposed and was unable to perform his experiments successfully
when subjected to rigorous testing. His total failures did not disturb his followers. In the words of Martin Gardner, "One could not ask for a more clinically perfect statement of the persistence of irrational belief on the part of the convert to a totally worthless set of theories hatched in the brain of a brilliant paranoid."
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5 of 40 people found the following review helpful:
Uhhh, October 13, 2006
By M. Stansbury (USA) - See all my reviews

First off, I think the author forgot to mention that Rife is apparently God of universe in his book, or at least thats the way he is portrayed. Second, why should I have to plunk down 4000 bucks to prove this radio can heal me, maybe you should try showing a couple of people through some free trials. Who is going to support some quack job by giving them $4000 only to find out that it doesnt work?
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42 of 139 people found the following review helpful:
What a load of rubbish!!, May 9, 2005
By Peter Bowditch (Australia) - See all my reviews

I was challenged by a supporter of medical quackery to read this book as it was sure to convince me that a great man had once defied the laws of the universe and had also found a guaranteed cure for cancer, a man whose achievements had been suppressed by the orthodoxy. Even though the man's work had been suppressed, I was able to find a copy of the book at an underground bookshop specialising in selling books which the establishment do not want people to read (the underground bookshop goes by the name of Amazon.com). Luckily, I was able to get a second-hand copy, so I didn't have to contribute to the author's royalty stream.

Although dead for years, Royal Raymond Rife remains a giant in the medical quackery and pseudoscience worlds. Not only did he discover the cure for cancer, but he was able to invent a microscope which defied the laws of optics. Of course, he was persecuted and suppressed by the establishment and his ideas and discoveries were lost forever. Or so this book says. In fact, Rife's ideas persist today in a variety of forms, although many of the quacks who have plagiarised his work seem to forget to mention where the ideas came from and then go on to claim them as their own.

Briefly, Rife claimed that all cancers were caused by the same virus and that this virus could change form, sometimes looking like a virus, sometimes looking like a bacterium, and sometimes manifesting itself as a fungus. He could observe these creatures moving about under his microscope by magnifying them 13,000, 17,000 or even 60,000 times, magnifications which "physicists" and "microscope manufacturers" claim are impossible using visible light and only attainable with electron microscopes. Because electron microscopes can only observe killed specimens, Rife had the advantage of seeing the living organisms moving about. He was then able to determine the electromagnetic frequencies which would destroy the microbes and cure the cancer. All cancer.

Physicist Robert Park has described seven signs of what he calls "voodoo science", and Rife showed almost all of them. He either refused or was too busy to publish any of his work in peer-reviewed journals (although some of his supporters published anecdotes in some non-peer-reviewed publications), there was a powerful establishment suppressing his discoveries (the dreadful Morris Fishbein from the AMA tried to buy his silence), all the evidence of cures was either anecdotal or lost in fires, equipment which operated at or even beyond the limits of detection was required to observe the effects, Rife worked in isolation (except for a few acolytes and true believers) and changes to the laws of physics were required if his microscopes were to work. As added evidence of the conspiracy against Rife, some people who initially supported him later changed their minds and admitted that they had been foolish.

If this book had been written as a way of showing an example of pathological science at work then it might have had some value. Instead, it was written by a true believer as a way of promoting Rife's work and promoting the nonsense to a wider audience. This book is less than worthless. I felt that I should have been paid to read it. Not only is it worthless, however, but it is dangerous as it could convince people with real diseases that someone following Rife's absurd ideas might actually be able to cure something.
====================

Hope you enjoyed those.

-Jeff

[Melodymama]

Wow, those reviews provided some of the most interesting reading on this thread I have seen. I love it when I see the word 'humbuggery'. Thanks for the good read, Jeff.

Good intentions do not always have good results. Western and Eastern medicine have provided a plethora of options. We are lucky here to be able to use the proven technology of the system and try other methods as well. I believe that both are valuable and that the belief that one is doing all one can toward wellness is also vitally important. This is an unending argument because there is an unending (by virtue of continuing curiosity and creativity) source of choices. In the end we all die of something, and the timing rarely seems perfect. To live in fear and defensive posture is sad if it keeps one from living as fully as possible in the present. I mean no offense, but why don't we ring the bell, put away the soap boxes, call it a good debate, and go enjoy the paradise we call home. You guys need a recess. Laura :2cents:

[Braggi]

... I mean no offense, but why don't we ring the bell, put away the soap boxes, call it a good debate, and go enjoy the paradise we call home. You guys need a recess. Laura :2cents:

Thanks for the good thoughts Laura, but I'm not quite done beating this particular horse who I'm sure must be having near death experiences by now.

Phooph, who I'm sure is a delightful person and absolutely well meaning throws up so many points in a single post that really deserve reply it's impossible for me to keep up. I thought I was the only person who did that. :wink:

One of the points raised by Phooph that is restated over and over in the "alternative" community is that naturally occurring compounds can't be patented. I'll past in a snip from an article I just received from an organization, funded by the drug companies of course, that produces materials for Doctors' continuing medical education credit (CME). This article, remember, funded by the evil Big Pharma, is about lowering cholesterol with the use of "red yeast rice" which is a staple in Chinese medicine.

From the article:
" ... RYR is the fermentation product of red yeast (Monascus purpureus) grown on rice. It is used as a dietary staple in some Asian countries, where the daily consumption is estimated at 14-55 g.[1] In North America RYR is used chiefly as a pigment for meat, fish, cheese, and alcoholic beverages.[2] Its use as a medication has been documented in an early Chinese pharmacopoeia back to 800 A.D. RYR has been used for indigestion and diarrhea; colic in children; cancer; bruising; postpartum problems; and to improve hypertension, blood circulation, and spleen and stomach disorders.[3]

Most importantly, studies conducted since the 1970s have reported that RYR may lower cholesterol and triglyceride levels.[4-7] RYR contains several compounds collectively known as monacolins, one of which is monacolin K, a powerful 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase inhibitor and ****** OK, here you go ******* the same chemical as lovastatin, a US Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved cholesterol-lowering drug. Because of this, the first commercial RYR products containing monacolin K were identified and taken off the US market in 2001.[3,8-10] In 2007, the FDA issued warning letters to other manufacturers of RYR products that still contained monacolin K, and these products were also withdrawn. A newly configured version of RYR now contains policosanol and a blend of marine lipids and is currently available without the natural lovastatin. A number of commercial supplements with RYR are still available in the United States, but they no longer contain any significant amounts of natural lovastatin; therefore, their value in reducing cholesterol is questionable."

OK, the article goes on to explain about a large scale double blind study in China where one company's Red Yeast Rice extract was given to lots of people and proved both safe and effective.

My point here is twofold: 1) a naturally occurring chemical that is patented by a drug company forced "naturally" produced products off the market because it violated the patent. and
2) In educational material provided to doctors by drug companies, AKA, Big Pharma, "naturally" produced alternatives to expensive and relatively toxic (to the liver) statin drugs are presented as a viable alternative for patients who wish to lower serum cholesterol.

So? I frankly think that naturally occurring compounds shouldn't be patentable but they are. In any case, here is an example of drug companies going against their own interests to educate doctors about an alternative treatment proven to work in a large, well controlled double blind study which is the Gold Standard of the industry.

Since the article isn't published in a publicly available source, email me and I'll forward you the entire article if you wish. It's probably not cool to post it on Waccobb.

-Jeff

[phooph]

Please, show one drug that fits this category. I don't think there are any.

-Jeff

I wish it were just that easy. Years ago I read a scathing article written by Dr. James Watson (co-discoverer of DNA) on the rapacious nature of the cancer industry. The article resides in a box somewhere in storage at another site, and finding it and getting it scanned into my computer would be too time consuming so I give you the next best thing.

https://health.centreforce.com/health/industry.html

Quotes including quotes from people with the initials "MD" after their names:
https://www.encognitive.com/organizations/acs-american-cancer-society-2008-apr-12.html

Another article that mentions Watson among others:
https://www.healingdaily.com/conditions/politics-of-cancer.htm

[phooph]

Phooph, I don't doubt your personal experiences. I do doubt your bottom line because it makes no sense and it flies in the face of my experiences which involve close personal relationships with well over a dozen physicians. I went to a wedding yesterday of one of them.

Doctors have no reason to keep a patient on any drug. That's just nonsense.


-Jeff

It is not only my experience but of over 35 years of hearing similar stories from dozens and dozens of people, including members of the medical community.

[phooph]

Phooph, I don't doubt your personal experiences. I do doubt your bottom line because it makes no sense and it flies in the face of my experiences which involve close personal relationships with well over a dozen physicians. I went to a wedding yesterday of one of them.

Doctors have no reason to keep a patient on any drug. That's just nonsense.


-Jeff

It is not only my experience but of over 35 years of hearing similar stories from dozens and dozens of people, including members of the medical community.

I have known my share of doctors and they are mostly hard working individuals who genuinely care about the well being of their patients. Unfortunately they are operating in a system that it's own members admit is broken. Much of the dysfunction can be laid at the feet of the drug industry which has captured the FDA and has long been a partner with the AMA. The revolving door between the drug industry and the FDA is legend. The criticisms come as often from those within the system as those outside it.

People are led to believe that the AMA is some sort of quality control organization for the medical industry, but its origin is as a lobbying organization and political action committee. It's prime focus was the elimination of competition to what it defined as medical orthodoxy. It's definition was very narrow and it has been found in violation of the Sherman Act (fair trade practices) multiple times. It's attacks on competition have seldom been based on science and sound medicine. It partnered with the tobacco industry (https://books.google.com/books?id=k627bn1FtfcC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=AMA+and+tobacco+companies&source=web&ots=RljSuZ3kog&sig=9tYcgcNFIMJkoYgzwwSVE9uQNf4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result) to provide a healthy image for smoking, in exchange for generous contributions and paying well for full page ads in the JAMA. Some folks may be old enough to remember the tobacco ads featuring physicians in white coats attesting to the superiority of one brand of tobacco or another. When the Surgeon General declared tobacco to be a disease causing product, the AMA dragged its feet (https://books.google.com/books?id=GmN9-GXTu4wC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=AMA+and+tobacco+companies&source=web&ots=jodveSwI9C&sig=JCd6GnrklLm1Qakcw1dlwKPunMM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result) in ending its lucrative relationship. It was only the tide of public opinion that embarrassed it into ending this nefarious collusion with death.
https://www.quitsmokingpainlesslynow.com/img/Camel%20Doctor%20Ads.jpg

It did the same for drug companies, writing articles that promoted drugs it claimed to have tested and found to be safe and effective. The AMA has never had a drug testing capability. Companies willing to give generous donations to the organization received royal treatment. Those who didn't would find their products ignored or maligned.

And may I tell the story one more time of my ex boyfriend and his wife who said I was nuts when I told them that pharmaceutical companies suppress legitimate therapies and are interested only in profits to the point of causing actual harm, even unto death, to patients. My ex is a professor of pharmacology at GWU (https://www.gwumc.edu/pharm/DC%20Perry%20homepage.html). His wife is a nurse. She later appologized to me after she went to work for one of the major drug companies. She said to me these exact words, "I used to think you were crazy when you said the things you did about pharmaceutical companies, but I work for one now and everything you said is true."

[phooph]

I notice that you only picked your own true believers and ignored the 36 positive reviews. Who is the deluded here?

Rife's major contribution was in the remarkable super high-powered microscope he developed that exceeded the power of the electron scanning microscope but did not kill its subject matter as does the ESM. With the Rife microscope life processes could be observed. A description of how it worked can be read here (https://healing-devices.com/rife-machines-part-1-the-microscope/). Using it Rife was able to observe living viruses.

Rife worked and researched at the Zeiss optics company on improving microscope technology and with Lee De Forest, inventor of the vacuum tube used in all radios until the transistor was invented. With De Forest he experimented with the effects of electricity, magnetism, and light and sound frequencies on microrganisms. He found that bacteria could be exploded by subjecting them to specific frequencies. You can see video of exploding bacteria that Rife took on this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AysfKyl8O9k&feature=related) which is the first ten minutes on a documentary of his life. His microscope could also observe the same process on viruses.

The AMA found his research of great interest and did with Rife what it had done with drug companies, asked for a piece of the action in exchange for promotion in the pages of JAMA. But the reputation of the AMA was not unknown in that day, and Rife had no interest in partnering with an organization with a predatory reputation. He refused, and the AMA, seeing that this new technology could threaten its lucerative partnerships with drug companies decided that Rife's technology was a threat, not to the practice of medicine, but to the profits of companies that were producing drugs to treat diseases. The AMA and the drug companies pressured the FDA to put Rife out of business and the FDA complied, labeling a scientific pioneer a quack. Elimination of the microscopes was essential to ending all inquiry into the use of energy frequencies to destroy pathogens, so a valuable tool for scientific investigation was denied to the scientific community. What threat would such a microsope pose to legitimate scientific inquiry?

Rife did not have lasers in his day, but what he used worked and lasers will work too. Rife was able to produce his results simply with sound waves and non-coherent light. Using lasers keeps it more high tech and it may really be more effective, but the laser folks are standing on Rife's shoulders, and his research is widely enough known that I suspect they were inspired by it. Lasers, though, give it more cache.


As I suspected, you have no examples of suppressed drugs. Instead you post a nonsense book about a quack. I'll let Amazon reviewers answer:
(BTW, that New Scientist article is talking about something completely different.)
(Oh, and note the number of people who found the first of these reviews "helpful." You can't shake a "true believer," even with facts and history.)

1 of 11 people found the following review helpful:
Royal Ripoff, March 18, 2008
By B. J Robbins (La Quinta, CA United States) - See all my reviews

Rife was not even original. In the first part of the last century, quacks ran rampant all over the U.S. Many had totally worthless machines, like Rife's. Colored lights, radio waves, cylinders containing mysterious substances, machines that diagnosed diseases using a person's blood (granted, today it is possible to diagnose prostate cancer using a blood test, but back then the claims were extrordinarily inaccurate), a goat's gland that cured ED, it was all there, and it was almost impossible to shut down all these imposters. Even the writer Upton Sinclair declared these people to be geniuses, who were going to revolutionize medicine.

And so we come to Dr. William F. Koch, who has been called "the best educated and most successful cancer quack in America." He held a doctorate in chemistry, had an M.D. degree taught histology and embyology. In 1919, Koch announced his discovery of "glyoxide", a mysterious substance that supposedly cured all diseases. The catalyst (glyoxide) is injected into the person, and does not kill the organism causing the disease, but puts the body in such a "frenzy of health" that it produces the means to kill the organism by itself. Sounds great, doesn't it? When government chemists analyzed glyoxide, they found it "indistinguishable from distilled water."

Dr. Albert Abrams of San Francisco with a distinguished mien and orthodox views when he was young, has also been called one of the great quacks in the pseudo-scientific literature. However, he said the following: "The physician is only allowed to THINK he knows it all, but the quack, ungoverned by conscience, is permitted to know he knows it all; and with a fertile mental field for humbuggery, truth can never successfully compete with untruth." This is still true today; it is rampant all over Amazon. Abrams retired with a fortune reported at two million (in 1923 dollars), which he primarily made by renting out his "oscilloclast", a machine he invented in 1920, which supposedly cured diseases by killing
bacteria using the newly discovered radio waves at their proper"vibratory rate."

Doctors were forced to swear that they would not look into the tightly sealed box. Shortly before Abrams' death, however, a team of doctors opened on the oscilloclasts. They found an ohm-meter, rheostat, condenser, and other electrical gadgets which were haphazardly wired together.

Abrams was exposed and was unable to perform his experiments successfully
when subjected to rigorous testing. His total failures did not disturb his followers. In the words of Martin Gardner, "One could not ask for a more clinically perfect statement of the persistence of irrational belief on the part of the convert to a totally worthless set of theories hatched in the brain of a brilliant paranoid."
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5 of 40 people found the following review helpful:
Uhhh, October 13, 2006
By M. Stansbury (USA) - See all my reviews

First off, I think the author forgot to mention that Rife is apparently God of universe in his book, or at least thats the way he is portrayed. Second, why should I have to plunk down 4000 bucks to prove this radio can heal me, maybe you should try showing a couple of people through some free trials. Who is going to support some quack job by giving them $4000 only to find out that it doesnt work?
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42 of 139 people found the following review helpful:
What a load of rubbish!!, May 9, 2005
By Peter Bowditch (Australia) - See all my reviews

I was challenged by a supporter of medical quackery to read this book as it was sure to convince me that a great man had once defied the laws of the universe and had also found a guaranteed cure for cancer, a man whose achievements had been suppressed by the orthodoxy. Even though the man's work had been suppressed, I was able to find a copy of the book at an underground bookshop specialising in selling books which the establishment do not want people to read (the underground bookshop goes by the name of Amazon.com). Luckily, I was able to get a second-hand copy, so I didn't have to contribute to the author's royalty stream.

Although dead for years, Royal Raymond Rife remains a giant in the medical quackery and pseudoscience worlds. Not only did he discover the cure for cancer, but he was able to invent a microscope which defied the laws of optics. Of course, he was persecuted and suppressed by the establishment and his ideas and discoveries were lost forever. Or so this book says. In fact, Rife's ideas persist today in a variety of forms, although many of the quacks who have plagiarised his work seem to forget to mention where the ideas came from and then go on to claim them as their own.

Briefly, Rife claimed that all cancers were caused by the same virus and that this virus could change form, sometimes looking like a virus, sometimes looking like a bacterium, and sometimes manifesting itself as a fungus. He could observe these creatures moving about under his microscope by magnifying them 13,000, 17,000 or even 60,000 times, magnifications which "physicists" and "microscope manufacturers" claim are impossible using visible light and only attainable with electron microscopes. Because electron microscopes can only observe killed specimens, Rife had the advantage of seeing the living organisms moving about. He was then able to determine the electromagnetic frequencies which would destroy the microbes and cure the cancer. All cancer.

Physicist Robert Park has described seven signs of what he calls "voodoo science", and Rife showed almost all of them. He either refused or was too busy to publish any of his work in peer-reviewed journals (although some of his supporters published anecdotes in some non-peer-reviewed publications), there was a powerful establishment suppressing his discoveries (the dreadful Morris Fishbein from the AMA tried to buy his silence), all the evidence of cures was either anecdotal or lost in fires, equipment which operated at or even beyond the limits of detection was required to observe the effects, Rife worked in isolation (except for a few acolytes and true believers) and changes to the laws of physics were required if his microscopes were to work. As added evidence of the conspiracy against Rife, some people who initially supported him later changed their minds and admitted that they had been foolish.

If this book had been written as a way of showing an example of pathological science at work then it might have had some value. Instead, it was written by a true believer as a way of promoting Rife's work and promoting the nonsense to a wider audience. This book is less than worthless. I felt that I should have been paid to read it. Not only is it worthless, however, but it is dangerous as it could convince people with real diseases that someone following Rife's absurd ideas might actually be able to cure something.
====================

Hope you enjoyed those.

-Jeff

[Dixon]

I'm reminded of the quote from George Bernard Shaw: "All professions are conspiracies against the laity."


...People are led to believe that the AMA is some sort of quality control organization for the medical industry, but its origin is as a lobbying organization and political action committee. It's prime focus was the elimination of competition to what it defined as medical orthodoxy. It's definition was very narrow and it has been found in violation of the Sherman Act (fair trade practices) multiple times. It's attacks on competition have seldom been based on science and sound medicine. It partnered with the tobacco industry (https://books.google.com/books?id=k627bn1FtfcC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=AMA+and+tobacco+companies&source=web&ots=RljSuZ3kog&sig=9tYcgcNFIMJkoYgzwwSVE9uQNf4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result) to provide a healthy image for smoking, in exchange for generous contributions and paying well for full page ads in the JAMA....
...She said to me these exact words, "I used to think you were crazy when you said the things you did about pharmaceutical companies, but I work for one now and everything you said is true."

[phooph]

Thanks for the good thoughts Laura, but I'm not quite done beating this particular horse who I'm sure must be having near death experiences by now.

Phooph, who I'm sure is a delightful person and absolutely well meaning throws up so many points in a single post that really deserve reply it's impossible for me to keep up. I thought I was the only person who did that. :wink:

Jeff, dear, you may have met your match. :wink: Back atcha.


One of the points raised by Phooph that is restated over and over in the "alternative" community is that naturally occurring compounds can't be patented. I'll past in a snip from an article I just received from an organization, funded by the drug companies of course, that produces materials for Doctors' continuing medical education credit (CME). This article, remember, funded by the evil Big Pharma, is about lowering cholesterol with the use of "red yeast rice" which is a staple in Chinese medicine.

Jeff, here you have confused drug approval and patent approval. There is no mention in the article below of patent infringement unless it's in the more extended article. Lovastatin was approved as a prescription drug. It is illegal to produce a prescription drug by any entity other than a pharmaceutical company that has been approved by the FDA to do so. The drug in this instance is produced using genetically engineered proteins which I am sure are patented. That RYR produced lovastatin without the fancy lab chemestry does not make it any more legal in the eyes of the FDA than if you were cooking it up in a lab in the garage. By getting it approved as a drug the manufacturer can shut out other sources. This only works if the particular chemical is relatively rare. If it occurred in a lot of foods it would run into flak from the food industry as well as the people who eat it. I'm sure it wouldn't work in China where it is a common food. Since RYR has been promoted for various conditions including cholesterol reduction, that would call the attention of the drug manufacturer here in the US.

I agree that the patent frenzy has gotten out of hand. And the classification of naturally occurring and safe beneficial chemicals as drugs available only by prescription should also be restricted. As for your comment on the generosity of the drug company educating doctors on natural alternatives, so much of this information is widely available and the appearance of generosity is good PR.


From the article:
" ... RYR is the fermentation product of red yeast (Monascus purpureus) grown on rice. It is used as a dietary staple in some Asian countries, where the daily consumption is estimated at 14-55 g.[1] In North America RYR is used chiefly as a pigment for meat, fish, cheese, and alcoholic beverages.[2] Its use as a medication has been documented in an early Chinese pharmacopoeia back to 800 A.D. RYR has been used for indigestion and diarrhea; colic in children; cancer; bruising; postpartum problems; and to improve hypertension, blood circulation, and spleen and stomach disorders.[3]

Most importantly, studies conducted since the 1970s have reported that RYR may lower cholesterol and triglyceride levels.[4-7] RYR contains several compounds collectively known as monacolins, one of which is monacolin K, a powerful 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase inhibitor and ****** OK, here you go ******* the same chemical as lovastatin, a US Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved cholesterol-lowering drug. Because of this, the first commercial RYR products containing monacolin K were identified and taken off the US market in 2001.[3,8-10] In 2007, the FDA issued warning letters to other manufacturers of RYR products that still contained monacolin K, and these products were also withdrawn. A newly configured version of RYR now contains policosanol and a blend of marine lipids and is currently available without the natural lovastatin. A number of commercial supplements with RYR are still available in the United States, but they no longer contain any significant amounts of natural lovastatin; therefore, their value in reducing cholesterol is questionable."

OK, the article goes on to explain about a large scale double blind study in China where one company's Red Yeast Rice extract was given to lots of people and proved both safe and effective.

My point here is twofold: 1) a naturally occurring chemical that is patented by a drug company forced "naturally" produced products off the market because it violated the patent. and
2) In educational material provided to doctors by drug companies, AKA, Big Pharma, "naturally" produced alternatives to expensive and relatively toxic (to the liver) statin drugs are presented as a viable alternative for patients who wish to lower serum cholesterol.

So? I frankly think that naturally occurring compounds shouldn't be patentable but they are. In any case, here is an example of drug companies going against their own interests to educate doctors about an alternative treatment proven to work in a large, well controlled double blind study which is the Gold Standard of the industry.

Since the article isn't published in a publicly available source, email me and I'll forward you the entire article if you wish. It's probably not cool to post it on Waccobb.

-Jeff

[phooph]

I'm reminded of the quote from George Bernard Shaw: "All professions are conspiracies against the laity."

How true. Many professions position themselves as a high priesthood. Back in the days of huge mainframe computers the high priests of computerdom dressed in white lab coats. I do some computer support and the computer illiterati view me as some sort of genius when I rescue their lost address book or replace a hard drive, or manage to hook up all the various pieces of their system so that it works. I know that the only difference between us is that I have taken the time to poke around and ask questions and learn because that's the kind of person I am. They may know a lot about some other subject that I have not explored.

People are inclined to put on pedestals anyone who seems to know more about something than they do whether they truely deserve it or not. The medical profession is placed on an undeserved pedestal. I view doctors as consultants, not high priests. I also am aware that their knowledge is often limited. John Hopkins University has done a lot of research on their own students. In one survey they discoverd that the medical students believed more old wives tales and mythology about sex than the remainder of the student body. They also discovered in following up with graduates that the medical students with the highest grade point averages made the worst doctors, and those with modest or low scores made much better doctors. I dated a doctor for a while who did not have even the most basic knowledge about nutrition and the connection between nutrition and health because this is not a subject that is coveredin any depth in medical school. He was always asking me questions. I was raised by a dietician and have been interested in the subject most of my life.