Göbekli Tepe [Archive]

Speak2Truth

07-26-2011, 01:22 PM

Göbekli Tepe is the most astonishing archaeological discovery in modern times and the oldest advanced civilization on Earth discovered to date.

This is amazing stuff. It changes our understanding of the progression of human civilization. This existed even as the Earth was shaking off the last Great Ice Age. This find could take its place among other great and well known ancient civilizations that shaped world history.

I'm fascinated by ancient stories of flying craft and high technology. If such things truly existed, the evidence might be uncovered in sites like this.

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Dixon

07-26-2011, 10:51 PM

Yeah, this stuff is interesting. Too bad the presentation is, typically for TV shows, a bit sensationalistic and nonscientific. Apparently none of the talking heads in this video are even archaeologists. They're identified as writers, journalists, one guy is a geologist. The guy who wrote the Gateway to Atlantis book even got the dates wrong by 2,000 years! And the attempt to connect the pictures of animals to the flood story found in the Bible (and elsewhere) is really a stretch.

That said, this Göbekli Tepe find is hugely interesting. I 'd like to hear what real archaeologists have to say about it.

I'm fascinated by ancient stories of flying craft and high technology. If such things truly existed, the evidence might be uncovered in sites like this.
Don't hold your breath. The likelihood that a site which, though astoundingly advanced for its age, shows no sign of metal work or ceramics would have high technology such as flying craft seems nil.

Claire

07-26-2011, 11:39 PM

Fascinating. It's almost as strange as the more recent Puma Punku in Bolivia, with it's gigantic, interlocking megaliths.
There are quite a few videos on YouTube that show the scope of the stoneworking involved at this site.
it's interesting and a little unsettling.

Here's a sample of what Wikipedia has to say:

Pumapunku

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
<table class="metadata mbox-small plainlinks" style="border:1px solid #aaa; background-color:#f9f9f9;"> <tbody><tr> <td class="mbox-image">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Commons-logo.svg/30px-Commons-logo.svg.png</td> <td class="mbox-text" style="">Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Puma Punku (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Puma_Punku)</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Coordinates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_coordinate_system): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/WMA_button2b.png/17px-WMA_button2b.png16°33′42″S 68°40′48″W (https://toolserver.org/%7Egeohack/geohack.php?pagename=Pumapunku&params=-16.5616904_N_-68.6799306_E_scale:10000) Pumapunku, also called “Puma Pumku” or “Puma Puncu”, is part of a large temple complex or monument group that is part of the Tiwanaku (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwanaku) Site near Tiwanaku, Bolivia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia). In Aymara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymara_language), its name means, “The Door of the Cougar”. The Pumapunku complex consists of an unwalled western court, a central unwalled esplanade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esplanade), a terraced platform mound that is faced with megalithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith) stone, and a walled eastern court.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Isbell2004a-0)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich1999-1)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich2006-2) The Pumapunku is a terraced earthen mound that is faced with megalithic blocks. It is 167.36 m wide along its north-south axis and 116.7 m long along its east-west axis. On the northeast and southeast corners of the Pumapunku it has 20-metre wide projections that extend 27.6 metres north and south from the rectangular mound. The eastern edge of the Pumapunku is occupied by what is called the “Plataforma Lítica.” The Plataforma Lítica consists of a stone terrace that is 6.75 by 38.72 metres in dimension. This terrace is paved with multiple enormous stone blocks. The Plataforma Lítica contains the largest stone slab found in both the Pumapunku and Tiwanaku Site. This stone slab is 7.81 meters long, 5.17 meters wide and averages 1.07 meters thick. Based upon the specific gravity of the red sandstone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone) from which it was carved, this stone slab has been estimated to weigh 131 metric tons.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Sangines1970-3) The core of the Pumapunku consists of clay. The fill underlying selected parts of the edge of the Pumapunku consists of river sand and cobbles instead of clay. Excavations at the Pumapunku have documented “three major building epochs, in addition to small repairs and remodeling.”[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Isbell2004a-0)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich1999-1)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich2006-2)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Sangines1970-3)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-ProtzenNair2000-4)
At its peak, Pumapunku is thought to have been “unimaginably wondrous,”[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich1999-1) adorned with polished metal plaques, brightly colored ceramic and fabric ornamentation, trafficked by costumed citizens, elaborately dressed priests and elites decked in exotic jewelry. Our understanding of this complex is limited due to its age, the lack of a written record, the current deteriorated state of the structures due to treasure hunting, looting, stone mining for building stone and railroad ballast, and natural weathering.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Isbell2004a-0)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich1999-1)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Sangines1970-3)
The area within the kilometre separating the Pumapunku and Kalasasaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalasasaya) complexes has been surveyed using ground-penetrating radar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-penetrating_radar), magnetometry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetometry), induced electrical conductivity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductivity), and magnetic susceptibility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_susceptibility). The geophysical data collected from these surveys and excavations have revealed in the area between the Pumapunku and Kalasasaya complexes the presence of numerous man-made structures. These structures include the wall foundations of buildings and compounds, water conduits, pool-like features, revetments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revetment), terraces, residential compounds, and widespread gravel pavements all of which now lie buried and hidden beneath the modern ground’s surface.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Ernenweini_.2B2007-5)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Willaims.2B2007-6)
<table id="toc" class="toc"> <tbody><tr> <td>
</td></tr></tbody></table> Age

Determining the age of the Pumapunku complex has been a focus of researchers since the discovery of the Tiwanaku site. As noted by Andean specialist, Binghamton University Anthropology professor W. H. Isbell,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Isbell2004a-0) a radiocarbon date (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating) was obtained by Vranich[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich1999-1) from lowermost and oldest layer of mound fill forming the Pumapunku. This layer was deposited during the first of three construction epochs and dates the initial construction of the Pumapunku at 1510 ±25 B.P. C14 (AD 440; calibrated, AD 536–600). Since the radiocarbon date came from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound fill underlying the andesite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andesite) and sandstone stonework, the stonework must have been constructed sometime after 1510 ±25 B.P. C14. The excavation trenches of Vranich show that the clay, sand, and gravel fill of the Pumapunku complex lies directly on the sterile middle Pleistocene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene) sediments. These excavation trenches also demonstrated the lack of any pre-Andean Middle Horizon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Horizon) cultural deposits within the area of the Tiwanaku Site adjacent to the Pumapunku complex.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich1999-1)
Engineering https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Pumapunkubolivia.jpg/200px-Pumapunkubolivia.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pumapunkubolivia.jpg) https://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.17/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pumapunkubolivia.jpg)
Detail of stone with precisely cut straight line and tooled holes within the line

The largest of these stone blocks is 7.81 meters long, 5.17 meters wide, averages 1.07 meters thick, and is estimated to weigh about 131 metric tons. The second largest stone block found within the Pumapunka is 7.90 meters long, 2.50 meters wide, and averages 1.86 meters thick. Its weight has been estimated to be 85.21 metric tons. Both of these stone blocks are part of the Plataforma Lítica and composed of red sandstone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone).[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-ProtzenNair1997-7)



(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-ProtzenNair1997-7)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-ProtzenNair1997-7)
In assembling the walls of Pumapunku, each stone was finely cut to interlock with the surrounding stones and the blocks fit together like a puzzle, forming load-bearing joints without the use of mortar. One common engineering technique involves cutting the top of the lower stone at a certain angle, and placing another stone on top of it which was cut at the same angle.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Vranich2006-2) The precision with which these angles have been utilized to create flush joints is indicative of a highly sophisticated knowledge of stone-cutting and a thorough understanding of descriptive geometry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descriptive_geometry).[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-ProtzenNair2000-4) Many of the joints are so precise that not even a razor blade will fit between the stones.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-8) Much of the masonry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry) is characterized by accurately cut rectilinear blocks of such uniformity that they could be interchanged for one another while maintaining a level surface and even joints. The blocks were so precisely cut as to suggest the possibility of prefabrication and mass production (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_production), technologies far in advance of the Tiwanaku’s Incan successors hundreds of years later.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-ProtzenNair1997-7) Tiwanaku engineers were also adept at developing a civic infrastructure at this complex, constructing functional irrigation systems, hydraulic mechanisms, and waterproof sewage lines.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Interlock_1.jpg/200px-Interlock_1.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Interlock_1.jpg) https://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.17/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Interlock_1.jpg)
Demonstration of the building block technique

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/7_Puma_Punku.jpg/200px-7_Puma_Punku.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:7_Puma_Punku.jpg) https://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.17/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:7_Puma_Punku.jpg)
Demonstration of the building block technique

Notable features at Pumapunku are <code>I</code>-shaped architectural cramps, which are composed of a unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy. These <code>I</code>-shaped cramps were also used on a section of canal found at the base of the Akapana pyramid at Tiwanaku. These cramps were used to hold the blocks comprising the walls and bottom of stone-lined canals that drain sunken courts. <code>I</code>-cramps of unknown composition were used to hold together the massive slabs that formed Pumapunku's four large platforms. In the south canal of the Pumapunku, the <code>I</code>-shaped cramps were cast in place. In sharp contrast, the cramps used at the Akapana canal were fashioned by the cold hammering of copper-arsenic-nickel bronze ingots.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-ProtzenNair1997-7)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Lechtman1998-9) The unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy is also found in metal artifacts within the region between Tiwanaku and San Pedro de Atacama during the late Middle Horizon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_periods_of_Peru) around 600-900.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku#cite_note-Lechtman1997-10)

Speak2Truth

07-27-2011, 12:37 PM

My mother spent a good deal of time practicing her shamanic arts in Peru. She came back with some amazing details of things that the general public is generally not shown.

This business of cutting laser-straight lines in stone is fascinating. Sure, on an external surface, it might be done with a large rotating grinder. However, the sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid in Egypt has those straight surfaces cut inside.

Humanity seems to have had an ability to perform advanced engineering waaaay back. Here's where I have fun with their stories of learning this from extraterrestrial visitors or people on flying craft. Unfortunately, Dixon's analysis seems correct. I would have thought that the GT site, which was intentionally buried, would have been most likely to have preserved any indications of ancient high-tech, if it existed and if it was in the hands of the humans building such sites.

* sigh *

I suppose one must consider that they were good creative writers, much like our own fantasy and science fiction writers.

Claire

07-27-2011, 02:16 PM

This business of cutting laser-straight lines in stone is fascinating. Sure, on an external surface, it might be done with a large rotating grinder. However, the sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid in Egypt has those straight surfaces cut inside....
I would have thought that the GT site, which was intentionally buried, would have been most likely to have preserved any indications of ancient high-tech, if it existed and if it was in the hands of the humans building such sites.

If I heard right on the posted video about Gobekli Tepe (I just love the sound of those words) no cutting instruments of any kind were found, so far, at the entire site. Or was that the Puma Punka site or both, actually? )It was pretty late when I was reading and watching videos about the sites.) ~Which simply furthers the mysteries.
I, too, would love to hear what a qualified archeologist has to say.
My brother went to Puma Punka and said it was beyond comprehension and he does not understand why it isn't more famous or notorious, no matter what possible theories you might purport to.

Speak2Truth

07-27-2011, 02:53 PM

If I heard right on the posted video about Gobekli Tepe (I just love the sound of those words) no cutting instruments of any kind were found, so far, at the entire site.

That's what I gathered as well. However, we don't leave our construction equipment in the finished home, either. Workers remove their table saws, hammers and paint rollers when they're finished.

I think the focus of our education about ancient civilizations tends toward those most influencing our current ones. That's why these sorts of sites don't get much attention. Yet, these obscure sites may be profoundly important.

Regarding construction equipment - I watched a documentary on the construction of the Great Pyramid that tried to explain the mysterious pits in the vicinity. They may have held large (20+ foot) wheels for grinding and cutting large blocks of stone. It's just a guess - the tools have not been found.

anathstryx

07-28-2011, 12:36 AM

Yeah, this stuff is interesting. Too bad the presentation is, typically for TV shows, a bit sensationalistic and nonscientific. Apparently none of the talking heads in this video are even archaeologists. They're identified as writers, journalists, one guy is a geologist. The guy who wrote the Gateway to Atlantis book even got the dates wrong by 2,000 years! And the attempt to connect the pictures of animals to the flood story found in the Bible (and elsewhere) is really a stretch.

That said, this Göbekli Tepe find is hugely interesting. I 'd like to hear what real archaeologists have to say about it.

Don't hold your breath. The likelihood that a site which, though astoundingly advanced for its age, shows no sign of metal work or ceramics would have high technology such as flying craft seems nil.

Take a look at this link which has some very good close-up photos and actual archeologists:

https://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html

Anathstryx

anathstryx

07-28-2011, 10:01 AM

Yeah, this stuff is interesting. Too bad the presentation is, typically for TV shows, a bit sensationalistic and nonscientific. Apparently none of the talking heads in this video are even archaeologists. They're identified as writers, journalists, one guy is a geologist. The guy who wrote the Gateway to Atlantis book even got the dates wrong by 2,000 years! And the attempt to connect the pictures of animals to the flood story found in the Bible (and elsewhere) is really a stretch.

That said, this Göbekli Tepe find is hugely interesting. I 'd like to hear what real archaeologists have to say about it.

Don't hold your breath. The likelihood that a site which, though astoundingly advanced for its age, shows no sign of metal work or ceramics would have high technology such as flying craft seems nil.

BTW, Dr. Robert Schock, the geologist in the presentation, does hold a degree in archaeology as well as several others. I was too sleepy to point that out late last night when I dropped in the link to the article on the archaeology site. That is not to say that there isn't some controversy that occasionally creeps up on his theories but, IMO, that is because he often challenges hoary and entrenched theories. Personally, I'm very fond of him and give him lots of cred. Unfortunately, he is often peppered through these sorts of pop presentations and may suffer a bit through guilt by association but that onus would be more on the director who splices him in with the "investigators". None the less, he is a bit unconventional and may not be everyone's cup of latte.

"Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a full-time faculty member at the College of General Studies at Boston University since 1984, earned his Ph.D. (1983) in Geology and Geophysics at Yale University. He also holds an M.S. and M.Phil. in Geology and Geophysics from Yale, as well as degrees in Anthropology (B.A) and Geology (B.S.) from George Washington University. Additionally, Dr. Schoch is a member of the Advisory Board, Ananda College of Living Wisdom."~ from Dr. Shock's web site at https://www.robertschoch.com/.

And here's a link to his idea of why Göbekli Tepe was buried circa 8000 B.C.: https://www.robertschoch.com/plasma.html

Anathstryx

Speak2Truth

07-28-2011, 11:01 AM

I have to take issue with Dr. Shock's plasma theory. The end of the last Ice Age was a regularly scheduled event, due to the Earth's irregular orbit. It fit nicely into the pattern of previous cooling and warming periods and is caused by increased solar energy reaching the Earth's surface.

I have seen evidence of massive meteor strikes interrupting the warming. These interruptions are indicated in the chart of sea level rise during this warming cycle and coincide with relatively rapid species extinctions such as the North American Horse around 13,000 years ago.

Otherwise, the warming was significant and oceans rose as fast as one inch per year for a thousand year period. That's huge.

13399

If plasma events were sufficient to fuse rock on the planet's surface, the impact on life forms would have been significant and widespread. There is, however, substantial physical evidence for meteor events such as fragments embedded in the tusks of extinct North American Woolly Mammoths. I'll try to find online links to that.

I would like to see some substantial evidence to back the plasma theory.