My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St. [Archive]

Sabrina

06-18-2011, 11:55 AM

CyberHippy

06-18-2011, 04:15 PM

I recall seeing you, your husband and your son at the show (I was the sound engineer) and had a nice moment when I realized the random music I was hearing was your son playing his instrument. I'm happy that he left the show with a skip and a smile, Hoytus did a great job of ending on a positive note for the evening!

I'm deeply sad to hear about the profiling, but not too surprised. My personal experiences with Sebastopol Police have supported the contention that many of them are of a very different culture from the overall population of the city they are supposed to protect. While the average Sebastopudlian is dedicated to being inclusive and embracing to all cultures our world offers, the younger police I have come across fit into that strange sub-culture that feels the need to desecrate the American flag by flying them in the back of their truck (against the US Flag Code) in a mis-guided show of "Patriotism"…

Most of the older Police I have dealt with are much more balanced people, some are even musicians themselves and appreciate the cultural diversity of our town. Perhaps we should talk to some of them about teaching their younger co-horts the joys of a more balanced world view?

Mighty

06-18-2011, 08:14 PM

I am so sorry to hear about your son. I grew up here in Sebastopol and now I am in my 40's raising my children who are teens. About a year ago I met an old high school girlfriend at Hop Monk's and had one glass of wine. I noticed a police officer came in the restaurant and looked at us. When I left I was pulled over by a really young officer and was given a sobriety test (my first one ever). He kept me for over an hour and said I failed and had to take a breathalyzer. I felt so harassed and told I was going to jail if I did not take the breathalyzer. Knowingly that I was not intoxicated I took it. Passed of course and then lectured if I had one more glass I would of went to jail. A week later my father was delivering cheese to Hop Monk and was pulled over too, asking if he had been drinking. NOT! Then my husband and I were at GTO's having dinner and watched the police drive around circles passing HopMonk, Aubergine, Jaspers, Main and GTO's looking for someone to pull over. I now look for places to go to dinner with friends out of Sebastopol because I feel they harass and it is not good for local business!!

someguy

06-18-2011, 09:49 PM

Last night my husband, my 19 year old son, and I went to see Hoytus in Sebastopol at Aubergine. At about 11 PM my son decided to go out and take a walk down town to just see what's going on further downtown. He was with his Kalimba playing it as he walked. If anyone knows my son, they know he almost goes no where without that little musical instrument (the Kalimba). He is also mixed, half white half African and has brown skin. He was on his way back from down town toward Aubergine again playing his kalimba when he got blasted with a bright light from a cop car riding up behind him on the street. The cop gets out and makes him put his instrument down, told him to keep his hands out of his pockets, asked him his name and to show his i.d. This is not the first time this has happened to him in Sebastopol. My son asked the cop "is everything alright?" and took it further, typical of my son, asked the cop "are you alright, are you ok" because as a human my son said the cop was very nervous. He actually told my son that he shouldn't be asking him that, he's supposed to be checking him (my son) out. Then he called into another cop giving my son's name and then said, No it wasn't him they were looking for, he'd been responding to a complaint somewhere way down the other end of town where someone's car had been broken into and things robbed. Now, why would he randomly stop my son just walking down the street? My son did say that not only was he playing the instrument he was kind of skipping / moving to his beats, including whistling, and he describes himself as whistling and singing in joy under the street lights. I bet if it was a white guy skipping and dancing down the street the cop would've ignored him. It was just seeing a black kid who's not always seen in Sebastopol. Anyone who knows my son, knows that he is NOT gangster or criminal in any way. I've heard for years and years and witnessed racial profiling in Sonoma County (my husband has been a victim often). But now when it starts happening to my kids it's hitting a raw nerve!!!! Just want people to be aware of this who are not aware.

A scenario almost exactly as you described above happened to me at the railroad square in Santa Rosa... I was playing hacky sack with about 5 other people when a cop stopped our game grabbed me and detained me on the hood of his police vehicle as he called in my drivers license information.... The cop asked me several accusatory questions as if I had been a perpetrator of some sort and made me feel as though my truthful responses to his questions were complete lies. All until his radio said I was clear and I was not actually who they were looking for.

I was quite furious at the time and had thought that I was being discriminated against for my rather long beard and hair. I am white by the way.... But now as I look back on that situation that occurred almost 4 years ago I realize the cop probably wasn't profiling a certain lifestyle or person but a description of a person (me) who had similar features to that of a criminal... Now I hate the way I was treated and it sounds like they treated your son that way too which sucks, but I would be cautious about throwing around claims of racsim onto your communities public safety officers (or anyone for that matter) in public, especially when its not completely certain that this was racial profiling or not... All I'm saying is that calling out people for racism is such a serious matter that I don't think it should be thrown around when the evidence of the situation can be interpreted many ways. It seems as though the evidence you've provided (as well as mine) suggest the cops need more training on sensitivity when it comes to dealing with the public when searching for suspects. I find it a stretch that the only reason your son got stopped was because he has brown skin, since this happened to me also. And I also think that many people tend to point to racism where there is none and white males need to walk on eggshells for fear of claims of racism being hurled their direction. I see this all the time in white men that they are so scared of being labeled a racist for the most innocent of encounters... It doesn't create a great environment for everyone when certain people feel this way. So I think that when making the claim of racism we should use the utmost integrity as it is very important if we truly want people to treat each others as equals and feel comfortable around each other.

joehogan

06-19-2011, 10:01 AM

When police act badly, a lawsuit is the appropriate response.

Last night my husband, my 19 year old son, and I went to see Hoytus in Sebastopol at Aubergine. At about 11 PM my son decided to go out and take a walk down town to just see what's going on further downtown. He was with his Kalimba playing it as he walked. If anyone knows my son, they know he almost goes no where without that little musical instrument (the Kalimba). He is also mixed, half white half African and has brown skin. He was on his way back from down town toward Aubergine again playing his kalimba when he got blasted with a bright light from a cop car riding up behind him on the street. The cop gets out and makes him put his instrument down, told him to keep his hands out of his pockets, asked him his name and to show his i.d. This is not the first time this has happened to him in Sebastopol. My son asked the cop "is everything alright?" and took it further, typical of my son, asked the cop "are you alright, are you ok" because as a human my son said the cop was very nervous. He actually told my son that he shouldn't be asking him that, he's supposed to be checking him (my son) out. Then he called into another cop giving my son's name and then said, No it wasn't him they were looking for, he'd been responding to a complaint somewhere way down the other end of town where someone's car had been broken into and things robbed. Now, why would he randomly stop my son just walking down the street? My son did say that not only was he playing the instrument he was kind of skipping / moving to his beats, including whistling, and he describes himself as whistling and singing in joy under the street lights. I bet if it was a white guy skipping and dancing down the street the cop would've ignored him. It was just seeing a black kid who's not always seen in Sebastopol. Anyone who knows my son, knows that he is NOT gangster or criminal in any way. I've heard for years and years and witnessed racial profiling in Sonoma County (my husband has been a victim often). But now when it starts happening to my kids it's hitting a raw nerve!!!! Just want people to be aware of this who are not aware.

edie

06-19-2011, 12:41 PM

joehogan

06-19-2011, 07:44 PM

Cop are public servants. You are the public. They are your servants. You can have a conversation with your servant if you want to. They are required to treat you with respect. If they don't, file a lawsuit.

Sorry about your son- are you sure it was profiling? Where there other people on the road- and stopped?
If someone would brake into my car I would have probably liked that most anybody on the road would be stopped and checked... it's just a check- and if I would have been stopped I would not try to have a "conversation" with the police- I learned that quick. Please think that there are a few people running loose that are not to be trusted, thats why the police is out there, to also protect your son...

"Mad" Miles

06-19-2011, 09:00 PM

Two people who responded to Sabrina's account of the police treatment of Olembe, have essentially downplayed or denied that racism had anything to do with it, also implying that profiling of any kind was doubtful.

First my bias, Sabrina, her son Olembe and his father/her husband Okili are dear friends of mine. But I would propose that those who have experienced the roust, are the one's in a position to decide if the targeting of them by the police is based on bias or not. Not those sitting on the sidelines, who were not there, and did not witness or experience the stop.

This denial (OK, let's just say, "skepticism") that race has anything to do with police conduct is a typical response from those not affected. Statistics, well founded and repeated over and over again, support the claim that police use racial and class profiling to guide their actions.

And downplaying or denying the experience of those affected, is part of the system of institutionalized racism at work in our society.

A recent poll showed that more White people think themselves the victims of racism, than whose who are not White. This is no accident. It's the result of a concerted campaign over the last thirty years, to make "reverse racism" the problem, rather than the legacy of racism on this continent for the last five hundred years.

It's a big and complicated issue with a long and complex history. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to those who are the targets and not those doing the targeting. Unless and until every single police stop is videoed and audiotaped, so that those coming along after the fact can judge for themselves.

My brother, who recently mounted a futile campaign to replace the Sebastopol PD with Sheriff's Department patrolling, did a ride-along with the SPD a couple of years ago. They referred to themselves as "Mayberry RFD" basically admitting that they don't have a lot to do.

On this board there have been regular accounts of overzealous policing by the SPD. Not all of them of a racial nature, but some. You can't have been paying attention to the traffic on this board for the last several years, without being cognizant of that pattern.

Driving while Black or Brown is a well known and substantiated phenomenon in our society. There are other forms. If you're young, poor, dress outside of the mainstream, and also White. You will get extra attention. Add in being Black or Latino or Other, you've hit the jackpot.

Two weeks ago at my brother's wedding in Sebastopol, at his and our fathers house, I spoke with a young "crusty" guy who with a group of friends from New Orleans had rented a van to drive west, traveling for the summer. He said that once they crossed the border of California, the extra police attention and harassment increased exponentially.

I would characterize this group of early twenty-somethings as "street punks". Who would have thought that in crunchy counter-cultural West Sonoma County, where the straights vs. the hippies battle was fought over thirty years ago, and relatively, peacefully (at least in time) resolved, that this would still be an issue. But apparently it is.

Note that in Sabrina's account, she said nothing about a description of the car breaker was given by the police. Just that there was a report of vehicles being broken into at the other end of town. So all the talk of "fitting the description" does not apply in this incident. Except in the sense that it is well known that, "fits the description", means: young, poor, likely not White, and dressed outside of the mainstream.

I've been a security guard (non-uniform, no weapon or badge, essentially a doorman who did rounds) I've taught in prison for three years, I've been a public high school and middle school teacher. One thing that is clear is that most cops spend most of their time at work with absolutely nothing to do, yet they're trained to anticipate danger at any moment and from any source (and that training is justified, it just shouldn't be the only kind they get) so they are bored out of their minds, and always looking for an excuse to go into action. With the results that we see, over and over again.

I know Olembe well. I know his sweetness and charm. He probably handled himself as well as anyone could under the circumstances, and with great courage and aplomb.

Me? I would have been livid. But I have that luxury. I'm so White, White people make fun of me and criticize me for being too White!

Still, when I was younger, I took my small share of aggressive police harassment. They tend to pick on those who do not represent a threat to them. Guess who else does that?

edie

06-19-2011, 09:38 PM

Cop are public servants. You are the public. They are your servants. You can have a conversation with your servant if you want to. They are required to treat you with respect. If they don't, file a lawsuit.

Of course you can have a conversation with a servant- but when cops are out looking for some criminal, they probably don't have time or in mind for a conversation with a nice person, they worry perhaps about someone with a gun in his pocket, their mind set on "danger" not "partytalk", I wouldn't interrupt them I would listen.
Everybody is required to treat everybody with respect- if that would be so nobody would brake into a car...
One good thing- lawyers always will have jobs, that might be one reason why in some areas in some cities the cops will not go in anymore.
And yes, I know about profiling in many ways- but also about jumping the gun... there should be cooperation and understanding on both sides- a situation like that is never fun for anybody.

Imagery

06-20-2011, 05:12 AM

...He was on his way back from down town toward Aubergine again playing his kalimba when he got blasted with a bright light from a cop car riding up behind him on the street. The cop gets out and makes him put his instrument down, told him to keep his hands out of his pockets, asked him his name and to show his i.d. This is not the first time this has happened to him in Sebastopol. My son asked the cop "is everything alright?" and took it further, typical of my son, asked the cop "are you alright, are you ok" because as a human my son said the cop was very nervous. He actually told my son that he shouldn't be asking him that, he's supposed to be checking him (my son) out. Then he called into another cop giving my son's name and then said, No it wasn't him they were looking for, he'd been responding to a complaint somewhere way down the other end of town where someone's car had been broken into and things robbed. Now, why would he randomly stop my son just walking down the street? My son did say that not only was he playing the instrument he was kind of skipping / moving to his beats, including whistling, and he describes himself as whistling and singing in joy under the street lights. I bet if it was a white guy skipping and dancing down the street the cop would've ignored him. It was just seeing a black kid who's not always seen in Sebastopol.

From what you've described in the first portion of your (edited) statement, the police officer was following procedure to ensure his own safety. While it sounds like your son did nothing wrong, which is what I believe, sometimes police make MISTAKES. It's part of being fallible human beings. What you choose to do with it is up to you. You could think of it as a mistake, or you can make yourself (and/or your son) a victim. The third part, IN MY OPINION, is simply inflammatory speculation on your part. Perhaps it comes from you writing this while being upset, but I don't think you have the ability to tell everyone with certainty what the cops would or would not do with a person of different ethnicity.

When I was in my early twenties, I was racially profiled - forced to sit on a curb for nearly an hour while this officer (Ventura Police Dept.) ran my name through every variation he could in order to try to arrest me. I hadn't done anything wrong except Driving While Brown. In the end, I was let go without a ticket. I got his badge number and his name, and went to the department the very next day and reported it. I received an explanation of the situation and an apology the very same day.

Try forgiveness instead of hatred and anger. If it continues, keep getting badge numbers/names and keep reporting it.

natalie

06-20-2011, 08:03 PM

Imagery

06-20-2011, 08:14 PM

I agree with a previous poster who said that the appropriate response is a lawsuit. I disagree with "try forgiveness" instead of "hate and anger". A quest for justice and fairness for all is not hate or anger. Forgiving racism without a remedy only allows the REAL hate and anger to continue. Furthermore, of course the police in an all-white town are racist. Sebastopol needs to be more inclusive.

Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that racism was involved? Other than an inflammatory remark made by the OP, what evidence do you have? I also notice that you have nothing to say about the rest of my comment - that if it continues, keep getting names and badge numbers and keep reporting it. Paper trail is sometimes what it's called. If this person is profiled time and time again, then it would be more than a mistake...

...but you sitting on your high horse in judgement don't ever make mistakes. Sorry God, I didn't know you posted on WaccoBB. I also am surprised at your total stupidity of painting the entire police department with the same racist paint brush.

natalie

06-20-2011, 10:35 PM

NadirahAdeye

06-21-2011, 12:31 AM

White Like Me by Tim Wise
Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh
The Color of Fear- a film by Lee Mun Wah
Last Chance for Eden- a film by Lee Mun Wah

There are a whole host of other great books and films that would benefit those who are unclear about the ways in which systemic oppression works. It's great for all of us to learn how doing things like challenging someone's assertion of discrimination upholds these systems of oppression.

NadirahAdeye

06-21-2011, 12:35 AM

I'm very sorry to read about your son's experience. It sucks and it might possibly have a deep impact on him for quite a while. Especially if it continues to happen. I was also extremely disappointed to read the responses here that questioned your assessment of whether or not it was, in fact, racial profiling. Unfortunately, it is a common (often white) response in the face of racial issues; personal discomfort (and the elimination of it) starts talking and compassionate awareness often takes a step back. I'm sure none of these people (nor any of the white people in your family or personal community who might make a similar misstep) would intentionally further harm your son by questioning his experience (which you clearly stated has happened more than once to him as well as to your husband.)

It sounds as though some of the police officers in Sebastopol would benefit from reading Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh or White Like Me by Tim Wise. I would also encourage it for those who offered preliminary sympathy and then participated in some traditional white silencing behaviors that often contribute to feelings of isolation for those dealing with challenging issues of racism in our communities.

For a lot of people, it is a privilege to be able to assume that your race is not the reason the police are stopping you. Especially if there is no reason for them to be doing so. It is also a privilege to not have to be aware of the systemic structures in place in the United States that makes it highly likely and, indeed probable, that this WAS an issue of racial profiling.

Best wishes,
Nadirah

Imagery

06-21-2011, 01:25 AM

Wow. I detect a little hostility toward the victims of racism. Could you be a cop?

By the way, the standard for a civil case is a "perponderance of the evidence", not "beyond a reasonable doubt." You have been watching too many cop shows:thumbsup:

Definitely NOT a cop. Having been someone who's been racially profiled, realize that once, or even twice, does not a lawsuit make. Jumping on the "lawsuit" bandwagon - you seem to believe that there is no other alternative...or is it a simple matter of economics?? Have we found a potential payday here? Is having the citizenry paying this person off really going to change anything? Realistically that's who is paying for this.

Having sat on a civil trial jury here in Sonoma County, I do know that it's a preponderance of the evidence, thank you for pointing that out. However, if they get the wrong jury (which is entirely possible, given your "...in an all-white town are racist. Sebastopol needs to be more inclusive..." statement), a single incident might not get the heartstrings of the all-white jury (jury of peers?) and would wind up being a waste of resources all around. It certainly wouldn't change anything. If they document a pattern of racial profiling, as I suggested in my post, then their case would be solid.

Imagery

06-21-2011, 01:36 AM

Unfortunately, it is a common (often white) response in the face of racial issues; personal discomfort (and the elimination of it) starts talking and compassionate awareness often takes a step back...I would also encourage it for those who offered preliminary sympathy and then participated in some traditional white silencing behaviors that often contribute to feelings of isolation for those dealing with challenging issues of racism in our communities.

For a lot of people, is a privilege to be able to assume that your race is not the reason the police are stopping you. Especially if there is no reason for them to be doing so. It is also a privilege to not have to be aware of the systemic structures in place in the United States that makes it highly likely and, indeed probable, that this WAS an issue of racial profiling.

Best wishes,
Nadirah

I highlighted my experience, so you might be able to read it and not gloss over it. I chose to be pro-active about my experience, but not go the course of filing a lawsuit for what was clearly a mistake and misstep on the part of the police department. Just to point something out, my skin is brown - I'm half-hispanic. I'm brown enough that if approached by most native, Spanish-speaking Latinos, they will start speaking to me in Spanish with the assumption that I know the language. So I'm not some Wonder Bread eating white guy that you might think I am behind this keyboard.

natalie

06-21-2011, 08:02 AM

Imagery, I don't care about "resources". I care about justice. You were the one who mentioned this beyond a reasonable doubt standard:hmmm:

It may be hard to get an unbiased jury in Sebastopol, but then, 99% of cases settle before trial anyway once the judge rules that there exists a preponderance of the evidence. Using the courts is a viable option for getting results. And yes, in a way it is about a payday, since that is all the powers that be seem to care about.

podfish

06-21-2011, 08:37 AM

Try forgiveness instead of hatred and anger. If it continues, keep getting badge numbers/names and keep reporting it. where did that projection come from? I didn't notice any hatred. That's a cheezy tactic - "why do you hate kittens?". It's very difficult to preserve a climate where law enforcement always shows respect for the citizens they serve. It's easy for them to develop an us-vs.-them attitude, and it's easy for grateful/fearful citizens to give them a pass (as long as it's someone else getting the treatment!)

Imagery

06-21-2011, 11:19 AM

where did that projection come from? I didn't notice any hatred. That's a cheezy tactic - "why do you hate kittens?". It's very difficult to preserve a climate where law enforcement always shows respect for the citizens they serve. It's easy for them to develop an us-vs.-them attitude, and it's easy for grateful/fearful citizens to give them a pass (as long as it's someone else getting the treatment!)

Perhaps vitriol is a more precise word, one that I failed to use in the quote you're referring to in your post.
Overall, the tone of this board is to treat the police with suspicion, constantly question their motives, their proactive tactics, and quickly jump to the worst conclusion possible about them. It's interesting that when a member (someguy) posted up his experience, because he's white, it was completely ignored. Also interesting to me is that the young man himself isn't posting anything. He is an adult, over the age of 18 (per OP's post), and I'd assume he's intelligent and well-spoken enough that he can speak for himself. His mother is, but part of being an adult is learning how to deal with life as it happens.

"I bet if it was a white guy skipping and dancing down the street the cop would've ignored him." - OP
"When police act badly, a lawsuit is the appropriate response." - Joe Hogan
"Cop are public servants. You are the public. They are your servants." - Joe Hogan
"Furthermore, of course the police in an all-white town are racist." - Natalie

I think someguy really stated this very well when he wrote: "And I also think that many people tend to point to racism where there is none and white males need to walk on eggshells for fear of claims of racism being hurled their direction. I see this all the time in white men that they are so scared of being labeled a racist for the most innocent of encounters... It doesn't create a great environment for everyone when certain people feel this way. So I think that when making the claim of racism we should use the utmost integrity as it is very important if we truly want people to treat each others as equals and feel comfortable around each other."

If every non-white person were to follow your advice, crime would run rampant, and nothing would ever get done about the criminals. If some Latino robs a business, then later gets stopped - he'll cry "I'm being profiled" and sue the cops...yeah, that'll be helpful to crime prevention. The police would wind up getting sued by both the victim AND the criminal...and where does that leave society? It probably leaves society looking like it does in Clearlake, where people shoot innocent little 4 year-old boys for no particular reason. I'll wait to see the lawsuit filed by Orlando Lopez (Latino) for racial profiling.

someguy

06-21-2011, 02:24 PM

I think this is a really important issue and I'm sad to see this thread turn so ugly... I think we should all calm down a little bit and try to bring some personal integrity into this discussion. As I see it, some folks who have responded on this thread think that this incident was absolutely racism simply because Sabrina's son who happens to be black was stopped by the police while doing nothing but walking down the street. And I can understand why that thought would come up for Sabrina being a concerned mother, but as I said in my previous post a very similar situation happened to me four years ago... Surely that can't be blamed on racism too as I'm white, as was the cop. So as we all can see, these situations happen to both white people and people of color. With that in mind, we should all review the evidence provided in the original post and see that the claims of racism are shaky at best. That is not to say that this was not racially motivated, but in my eyes, with my understanding of the situation, it doesn't seem likely. Now maybe if he was detained for an unreasonable amount of time, or was on the receiving end of racist rhetoric, or was harmed or something out of the ordinary happened, then Sabrina would have a case for police racism.

Whether it seems likely or not to you, there is still the possibility that it was not racially motivated. So to allege that a local police officer is racist in a public forum without a great deal of evidence seems rather drastic, immature and harmful to our community, possibly even harmful to the psychological health of the child who was stopped. I hope that kid doesn't end up thinking all white people are racist from his parents reaction and other reactions from Wacco members. That would be tragic. But it is amazing how some people here obviously feel that most if not all white people are inherently racist. Natalie's assumption about white people reflects that sentiment very well: "of course the police in an all-white town are racist." To me this is very sad that people in our community would try to fight racism with seemingly racist rhetoric. To those who truly are not racist and view all people as equal and having equal potential to be great people, an assumption such as Natalie's would seem ludicrous.

Also, some here seem to think that I am in denial about racism in our society, but of course I know racism exists. It happened to Oscar Grant, Mumia, and to lots of other people on a daily basis. We should all be aware of this, fight against it, and work towards bettering our communities for everybody, but we should do our work with the utmost integrity. We shouldn't cry wolf at the slightest inconvenience, and we definitely shouldn't combat evil with evil. We should send our love to those who are racist in hopes that they change. :heart:

meherc

06-21-2011, 03:09 PM

podfish

06-21-2011, 03:41 PM

.<snip some="" fairly="" reasonable="" commentary,="" then="" it="" goes="" off="" the="" rails:=""> ...white males need to walk on eggshells for fear of claims of racism being hurled their direction. I see this all the time in white men that they are so scared of being labeled a racist for the most innocent of encounters.......
If every non-white person were to follow your advice, crime would run rampant,..... oh come on.</snip>

"Mad" Miles

06-21-2011, 04:11 PM

An awful lot of projection and painting with a broad brush here. No surprise really, given the topics involved. Here are some facts:

Olembe has been rousted by cops in Santa Rosa more than once. He is half African, his father is from Congo Brazzaville, half mixed Caucasian with some Hawaiian/Polynesian ancestry, his mother is from this region. He looks Black.

Imagery and Someguy relate experiences in which they were rousted once.

The concern from those questioning and or criticizing Sabrina's account (note she has not responded, has not further participated in this thread) is that her statement that the stop was a form of racial profiling is not substantiated. And whether or not she is justified in making the charge. She provided an explanation as to why she made the claim, based on her husband and her son's direct experiences.

I find your denial of their experience to be highly offensive, and biased. It's also the typical response from many White people who have not fully explored these issues. I've seen it over and over again, for the thirty-five years that I've been an active Anti-Racist. Including from and among some of my closest friends.

Kudos to those who provided resources about the nature and workings of modern Racism in our society. For anyone participating in this discussion who is not already well familiar with that work (by that "work" I mean the books that are cited below in this thread) I put it to you, you do not know what you are talking about.

How do I know this? What is my evidence for making that claim? Because confusing attitude, opinion, overt expressions of prejudice by White people towards non-White people, whether expressed by cops, or by anyone, with the legacy and structure of Institutionalized Racism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism), which several of you have done in your comments, shows that you are not educated on the issue.

It is perfectly possible for a police officer to have no prejudice whatsoever towards anyone, yet serve as an agent for Institutionalized Racism. That may be difficult to grasp. It may be counter intuitive and go against your understanding of how prejudice and Racism work, what they are. But until you've read up, and at least understand the argument, you're not qualified to weigh in on this or any other related issues. Yes, I'm calling some of you ignorant. Well meaning maybe, but not fully informed.

As for Olembe's non-participation in this discussion. He has never been a Waccoon. I'm sure he's aware of this discussion, but there's no compelling reason he should engage in it here. I won't speak for him and speculate about why or why not he's not participating, and no one else should either. That's his business. Not ours.

The same applies to Sabrina, even if she is the OP/Thread Starter and a somewhat active Waccoon. I haven't spoken with her, I probably will at some future point, but, and this is purely speculation on my part, I am not intending to be her spokeperson here, I can imagine that some of the things written to criticize her account, are so infuriating, judgmental, dismissive, biased and pig ignorant, that a response seems futile and would only add to her stress levels and otherwise accomplish nothing. She works for a living in a difficult economy. Who has the time?

This discussion reminds me of one I loosely recall here from some three or four years ago, I forget the exact prompt, issue, but similar positions were extensively aired. I'm not sure anything was accomplished then either.

Everybody knows about the recent work that shows people argue to prove themselves right, not to seek information or to adjust their views and opinions. Interesting stuff, but not very encouraging or optimistic about the use of reason to achieve common understanding and consensual agreement.

And I completely understand the weighted historical resonance of the light-hearted usage, "Waccoon", in a discussion about Race in America. It's thin ice, dangerous ground, but I don't mean it to refer to the charged and horrific legacy of Racism and Racist Violence in our country, and trust that my bona fides as an anti-Racist activist and organizer allow me to be given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps in this context I should drop it, just to avoid any misunderstanding and to not poke any old wounds. From here on, in this context, I'll use Waccovillian, even if my affinity for Racoons is offended!?

Discussions of Race are highly weighted and sensitive, as they should be given our history. Some people apparently give the benefit of the doubt to the Police in matters such as this. I do not, and while I don't give the benefit of the doubt to those hassled by them either, I do know about the pattern of selective enforcement that is the current state of affairs in this matter. It's not a phenomenon that can be easily dismissed as just a matter of competing perceptions, as some seem to want to do, it's real, as many studies, surveys and polls have shown and continue to demonstrate (https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1381802).

One of the aspects of "White Skin Privilege (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege)" is the ease in being blind to the reality that others experience, if one benefits from it. It's a highly controversial concept. Part of that background of research, scholarship and discussion that one should be cognizant of before weighing into discussions like this.

In short, your experience as White people shapes how you view these issues, and those who are not White, have different experiences than you. When you deny that difference, in the name of some kind of color blind culture that does not exist except in your head, you are contributing to the problem, not helping to solve it. Read up, then get back to us.

If you really think that racial profiling is not a real phenomenon in our society at this time, all I can say is:

Cracker!? Please?!

Imagery

06-21-2011, 04:25 PM

oh come on.

I just wish you'd included the quote in context, as it was a quote from another member here.

Dixon

06-22-2011, 02:15 AM

Yes, racism is alive and well in the USA (though the situation has improved in some ways compared to the 50s and 60s when I was growing up). I could tell you an ugly story about what happened to my blond Caucasian sister and her black husband in Sterling Heights (AKA "Sterling Whites") Michigan a couple of years ago.

And yes, racism is, more than most people would like to think, absolutely fundamental to the American national psyche, for reasons having to do with the importance of genocide and slavery in the founding and early growth of the country.

Does that mean that Olembe was subjected to racial profiling in the incident under discussion? Quite possibly, but we don't know. It's possible that, all other things being equal, a white kid would have been treated exactly the same. Or not. Arguing with one another on the basis of an assumption that we know that racial profiling actually did or didn't take place in this situation is pointless. We'll probably never know. We'll have a better chance for progress if we conduct our discussions without indulging in the temptation of phony certainty.

Sabrina

06-22-2011, 03:45 AM

Well, I've been very busy and unable to respond till now. I didn't even want to express "gratitude" until I knew I had time to respond. Now I have to figure out (navigate?) how to place quotes and responses all in one thread (oh, boy...:pullshair::fie:)

To start off - thank you to Miles and NadirahAdeye for bringing up the issues of white privilege and institutionalized racism along with some really good links. For those wanting to have a deeper understanding of those topics who have not really become educated about it, check out the media and sites.
NadirahAdeye suggested:

White Like Me by Tim Wise
Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh
The Color of Fear- a film by Lee Mun Wah
Last Chance for Eden- a film by Lee Mun WahMiles shared:
One of the aspects of "White Skin Privilege (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege)" is the ease in being blind to the reality that others experience, if one benefits from it. It's a highly controversial concept. Part of that background of research, scholarship and discussion that one should be cognizant of before weighing into discussions like this. and
It is perfectly possible for a police officer to have no prejudice whatsoever towards anyone, yet serve as an agent for Institutional Racism. (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/Institutionalized%20Racism) That may be difficult to grasp. It may be counter intuitive and go against your understanding of how prejudice and Racism work, what they are. But until you've read up, and at least understand the argument, you're not qualified to weigh in on this or any other related issues. Yes, I'm calling some of you ignorant. Well meaning maybe, but not fully informed..

When Some Guy wrote
....I was quite furious at the time and had thought that I was being discriminated against for my rather long beard and hair. I am white by the way.... But now as I look back on that situation that occurred almost 4 years ago I realize the cop probably wasn't profiling a certain lifestyle or person but a description of a person (me) who had similar features to that of a criminal... You are right, you also experienced a form of discrimination, as Miles stated, that
....If you're young, poor, dress outside of the mainstream, and also White. You will get extra attention.... But, as my family, and many folks of brown and black skin that I know have experienced, right in front of my eyes, many times (I've lived within my multi colored / cultural family / community for well over 20 years now), I agree with Miles statement
....Add in being Black or Latino or Other, you've hit the jackpotSome Guy, I know you probably mean well and probably don't mean to seem like a white guy in denial when you say
....Also, some here seem to think that I am in denial about racism in our society, but of course I know racism exists. It happened to Oscar Grant, Mumia, and to lots of other people on a daily basis. We should all be aware of this, fight against it, and work towards bettering our communities for everybody, but we should do our work with the utmost integrity. We shouldn't cry wolf at the slightest inconvenience, and we definitely shouldn't combat evil with evil. We should send our love to those who are racist in hopes that they change. :heart:. But I have to say, if you know what really happened with Oscar Grant and Mumia Abu Jamal, you should understand how upsetting this type of incident is that happened with my son. Both of those cases were instances of events that lead to death or life in prison. I told my son he should never have asked the officer if "he" was ok, because you never know if one of these nervous terrorist fearing, very easily gun happy guys might taser him or shoot him for that matter. If anyone knows my son, he is NOT a smart Alec and is very caring serious and definitely naive in his miniscule experience in dealing with cops. Does any one remember the young black teenager, Jeremiah Chass (https://www.bohemian.com/bohemian/03.21.07/jeremiah-chass-0712.html) that was killed by cops right here in Sebastopol a few years back? And the way that the cop who killed Oscar Grant by mistakenly pulling his gun instead of his taser, is pretty scary.
Some Guy goes on to say,
....but I would be cautious about throwing around claims of racism onto your communities public safety officers (or anyone for that matter) in public, especially when its not completely certain that this was racial profiling or not... All I'm saying is that calling out people for racism is such a serious matter that I don't think it should be thrown around when the evidence of the situation can be interpreted many ways. Whether it actually WAS racial profiling or NOT will never be proven without video cameras and witnesses, and as Dixon just pointed out
...Arguing with one another on the basis of an assumption that we know that racial profiling actually did or didn't take place in this situation is pointless. I told my son, that next time he should politely ask the cop for a business card or badge number (so that he can confidently know which cops are really helping us to be most secure on the streets, LOL!....). Had he gotten those, I would have complained. I may still put in a phone call. Ideally, if we were in town on a business day, I like what someone said, if my son was up to it (whom I won't name because they replied privately to me); they suggested
...I am suggesting that you talk to some knowledgeable people about turning this into a situation in which your son is empowered. A public educational talk or presentation to the Seb. PD by your son, possibly. Your son appears to be a very conscious and smart young man. He could learn some great leadership skills from this experience. and actually Imagery suggests he did something like this when he was 20,
I got his badge number and his name, and went to the department the very next day and reported it. I received an explanation of the situation and an apology the very same day.I must address a few other statements here: Eddie asked: ,
Where there other people on the road- and stopped? No there were not. Then Eddie said,
Of course you can have a conversation with a servant- but when cops are out looking for some criminal, they probably don't have time or in mind for a conversation with a nice person, they worry perhaps about someone with a gun in his pocket, their mind set on "danger" not "partytalk", I wouldn't interrupt them I would listen. This attitude by Cops, i.e. when they are looking for a criminal is EXACTLY the attitude cops have had that end up killing people by mistake, like Oscar Grant or Jeremiah Chass. Their training should involve taking a deep breath and slowing down; perhaps a bit of "intuitive" training, vs. "shoot to kill" training. Maybe, like Cyberhippy says,
Most of the older Police I have dealt with are much more balanced people, some are even musicians themselves and appreciate the cultural diversity of our town. He also makes the point, and I think the cop who stopped my son was a young 'en,
Perhaps we should talk to some of them about teaching their younger co-horts the joys of a more balanced world view? and earlier said,
...the younger police I have come across fit into that strange sub-culture that feels the need to desecrate the American flag by flying them in the back of their truck (against the US Flag Code) in a mis-guided show of "Patriotism"… (Side note: WHEN EVER I SEE THOSE FLAGS IN THE BACK OF TRUCKS I WANT TO ASK THEM, "Ooh! Might you be an American? Just wondering, since you had that big flag in your truck...":wink:)

Imagery says
It's interesting that when a member (someguy) posted up his experience, because he's white, it was completely ignored. Also interesting to me is that the young man himself isn't posting anything. He is an adult, over the age of 18 (per OP's post), and I'd assume he's intelligent and well-spoken enough that he can speak for himself. His mother is, but part of being an adult is learning how to deal with life as it happens Actually, as you can see Some Guys's statements have been dealt with here, not ignored. Had I had time earlier I would've replied long ago directly to that, first. My son is not on this Wacco Board, but I did tell him I was posting the statement because it really bothered ME. He was content to just passively leave it alone. In fact, when he told me about it, he almost thought it was funny. But I did not. He thought it was sweet and innocent of himself to ask the cop if "he" was ok, (I didn't mention earlier, but he also had put his hand in a caring way on the cops shoulder of which he was asked to remove his hand). That scared me thinking of how the cop could have thought he was trying to attack him, and could have shot him. My son is naive to how dangerous cops can be. I wanted to address the issue because I feel like it's partly up to white people to address racism by other whites in protection of black and brown folks, even though we do not know for a FACT that this WAS racism. But it most likely was an unconscious form of Institutional Racism on his (the cops) part, my opinion based on my life experiences, and sited studies on white privilege and racism, etc..

Ok, it's way too late, but this issue is one of those that really touches my heart, and I've been wanting for days to respond, but have been WAY to busy trying to make a living - a slave to the $.

To sleep......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

"Mad" Miles

06-22-2011, 12:30 PM

Hear Hear Sabrina!

Well put, thank you for your articulate and comprehensive reply. I know how busy you are.

The part about Olembe putting his hand on the cops shoulder really concerns me. As a veteran of Demonstration/Protest Culture for over thirty-five years, one of the first things we learned was to never touch a police officer. That alone was sufficient cause for them to charge one with assault. No matter how well meaning and "innocent" one's intentions.

Olembe is not so innocent as to not know he was pushing it with that. I'm sure he meant well, but he was also being cute. And cops don't handle cute well. I'm sure he's got the message by now, I won't belabor the point. The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there, and it would have been his word that was trusted by his superiors, the court, and the court of public opinion. Rule #1 Do Not Touch The Police Officer!!

As for asking for a business card or name and badge number, even though that is our right, in my experience, it is seen as a provocation, a threat.

I was lead volunteer security during a warrantless, badgeless police tactical team raid on the headquarters of demonstrators in Chicago, in August of 1996. The lead cop kept brushing aside my requests for a warrant, his name and badge number, he kept saying, "We'll get to that later." I knew that if I insisted, I would become a target (even more than I already was) of their aggression.

As it was they pepper sprayed several people who followed them demanding their cameras and boom box radios back as the cops were leaving.

We took them to Federal Court, but were unable to ID the police perps. I personally think we were never shown I.D. pictures of the raiders, just lots of other Chicago cops. As a result of our failure to I.D. them and prove our case about police misconduct, the consent decree that came out of Chicago '68, that was signed in '72, expired.

The consent decree was that the city would not engage in political policing. As of 2001 it was off the books. Open season on "radicals" once again in the city on the lake.

Anyone paying attention to the news knows how empowered the police have become after 9/11.

Here's how I handle my thankfully infrequent encounters with police when they've pulled me over, or at demonstrations. I maintain a calm, "Yes Officer, No Officer", demeanor. I do not comment or argue with them. I only answer their questions and briefly as I can. I wait for them to direct me, I do not volunteer information or offer suggestions. I do not criticize them. Anybody who knows me must understand how difficult that is for me!?

If they've got me dead to rights on some minor vehicle code violation, which has happened, a headlight out being the last instance. I apologize (not too profusely!) and promise to have it fixed ASAP. And I do so at the earliest opportunity.

I kept a friend from getting a speeding ticket in Gualala a few years ago, by explaining, truthfully, when the opportunity arose, that we had just been wondering while driving south into town on Highway 1, what the speed limit was. It's a speed trap and the 25 mph sign is placed where it is difficult to see. My friend got a fixit ticket for tinted windows (a bogus one it turns out) but not a moving violation. And that was because I spoke up in a manner the CHP found appropriate.

Maintaining calm, respect (even if it is fake!?) but not volunteering or directing the interaction, those are key. When I was younger, angry, visibly frustrated, I learned how that made the exchange even more difficult.

I hate having to be "step and fetch'it" with the cops, absolutely hate it. But they've got the gun, and the privileged attitude, I just want to get clear of them ASAP. Playing the game their way, doesn't guarantee it, but it helps.

Reading the cops name badge, memorizing his name and description, writing them down, with all the particulars (time, place, sequence of events, who said what, who did what) ASAP afterwards. That's what lawyers tell you to do. Document it. That way, if you want to make an issue of it, you have something to stand on.

Peace Out!

anathstryx

06-22-2011, 02:30 PM

Well, I've been very busy and unable to respond till now. I didn't even want to express "gratitude" until I knew I had time to respond. Now I have to figure out (navigate?# how to place quotes and responses all in one thread #oh, boy...:pullshair::fie:)

To start off - ...

As a daughter of a mixed race family and Grandmother to mixed race grandbabies, I certainly empathized with your position and appreciate your balanced and thoughtful response, Sabrina. There are levels of complex emotion particular to people in this situation that may be difficult for others to fully comprehend.

My paternal Grandmother was from an Irish family that had immigrated to Michigan. She fell in love with a black man in the early 1900’s and had three boys by him. She was disowned by her family and lived (mostly by her wits. Throughout the years, she was a seamstress, a factory worker, and made bathtub gin during prohibition) in the ghettos of Detroit. She was in the most uncomfortable position of being discriminated against by several levels of society and ethnic groups but she was a tough woman and persevered.

I was born in Hollywood a year before anti-miscegenation laws were overturned by the California Supreme court in 1948 although the actual date that anti-miscegenation laws were permanently struck from California was some time in the mid-50’s. My Father, of mixed race, married a white woman. He was a member of the Duke Ellington band for a time and the issues my family had to deal with during the 40’s and 50’s as we moved around the country on tours were horrendous. In those times, there were states where black men were hanged (and worse) for even touching (or glancing in a "provocative manner" at) a white woman. Marriage was no protection. In fact, we moved to Paris for a time to escape the prejudice. It may be of some interest to some to read this article from Life magazine, 1951, about my Dad and family: https://books.google.com/books?id=k04EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA81&dq=Herb%20Jeffries&as_pt=MAGAZINES&pg=PA81#v=onepage&q=Herb%20Jeffries&f=false

Growing up was no picnic. I got heat from several quarters because of my lineage. Prejudice and racial bias isn’t restricted to one ethnic group. If you had any black blood at all, you were black. Enrolled in a predominantly black elementary school for a time as a child, I was shunned for being too white. Enrolled in a predominantly white school, I was shunned for being black. It took an emotional toll on me that required years to sort out, even now having to combat to this day certain levels of denial and bias in some members of my family.

During my college years, I was a radical. I got "profiled" a lot. I was "detained" in San Francisco once because I looked like Angela Davis. I’ve been "profiled" for driving a VW van with Grateful Dead stickers on it, too, though. Everyone is subject to being on somebody's "profile" list.

Now my youngest daughter has the challenge of raising two young sons who are half Hispanic. Because she and I are both fair skinned, we are subjected to racial slurs that wouldn’t pass a person’s lips if they didn’t assume we are Caucasian. We take pride in our mixed lineages and try to meet the challenges with fierce dignity.

My husband was telling me the other night when I was discussing this thread with him that his Uncle was one of the U.S. marshals who escorted James Meredith into the University of Mississippi in 1962. His Uncle was shot at by the Mississippi state highway patrol. Several years ago, he converted to the Islamic faith. Now he is harassed for being a Muslim, although he is a white man in America. The irony.

As someone mentioned here, we’ve come a long way. But there is such a long, long way to go.

Anathstryx

Sabrina

06-22-2011, 11:27 PM

Cheingrand Says,
This has been an enlightening discussion that serves the purpose of reminding us that despite improvements, we cannot assume that racism in America, both individual and institutional, no longer exists. It does and many examples have been posted. As to using Mumia Abu Jamal as an example of racism, it needs to be pointed out that he is a convicted cop-killer. His trial was a circus and his death penalty was subsequently overturned, but his conviction remains. Oscar Grant was murdered, and Mumia Abu Jamal murdered a policeman. I know he was convicted of killing a cop, but to this day it is actually a huge controversy as to whether he actually "did" kill the cop: ".... He has steadfastly maintained his innocence." https://www.sevenstories.com/book/?GCOI=58322100377810. Plus check Wikipedia details https://en.wikipedia.org (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal)/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal)

To anathstryx - Thanks so much for sharing your beautiful family story - I say beautiful because it's through the pain and tears that bring us the growth and change we need and love - AND it reminds me of my family - I love history. My Grandmother was born and raised in Hawaii and she always took pride in her Hawaiian Heritage, dating her geneology back, as Hawaiians do, to the last pure Hawaiian person and beyond. She was born with this pride of her Hawaiian heritage, doing the Hula and knowing the culture, an Island girl, and yet, she was only 1/8 Hawaiian, the rest was English and French. Even though she completely looked white, as a young woman she was unable to get jobs because many places had laws against hiring people with Hawaiian blood. Finally after throwing a sobbing fit about how "you people came here to our islands and won't even hire us in our own homeland!" at the feet of some banker who'd been one of many who told her he could not hire anyone with Hawaiian blood (she was very proud and would not lie about it), out of embarrassment of the onlookers, he hired her. She always raised us to be proud of that bit of Hawaiian, probably know more about it than the larger portions of English, French, Russian, and Czechoslovakian I have - but when I married my husband who is black, she was afraid of the racism my kids would experience, or that people would not accept them. There's more story to tell, but I won't go on here.

zenekar

06-23-2011, 01:07 AM

From a friend, not a member of wacco to whom I've been sending this thread: “Thanks to both Sabrina and Miles for taking the time to explain (for the umpteenth time) what anyone with a curious and motivated mind could have known for themselves. The thing about ignorance is that the people displaying it have no idea that they are. When it comes to passive racism I lost the patience to explain decades ago so admire those folks who still willingly give of their time and energy to do so. It’s a thankless and frustrating job.” from Justice, almost 40 years in West County watching the white folks.
____

I've been reading people's opinions on this thread and responses are sadly not surprising. Knowing Sabrina and the family, I can appreciate why she considers that Olembe was profiled. She knows racism because she and her family experience the institutionalized racism ingrained in this society since the Europeans stepped onto this continent. If one doesn't experience racism directly one doesn't see it, feel it... Best way to get to know folks and learn firsthand about racism is to step outside one's comfort zone in white communities, and spend quality time with folks to understand how, and how often racism effects people of color (vs. those of the lighter skin persuasion, known as white folks).

In addition to resources previously mentioned here, there is a group called Racist Justice Allies which meets monthly, dealing with issues of white privilege and racism. Contact Carl Patrick for more info, [email protected]
____

nicofrog

06-23-2011, 11:05 AM

Olembe!
sorry that happened ,I've been profiled for long hair, funky old cars, and freaky ways all my life
actually,it was probably the Kalimba that set them off. Pure Joy,and freedom of expression can be threatening to some raised without it. Driving in a fully decorated Art Car is interesting, about once a week someone flips you off and shouts obscenely.. weird huh?
In Cotati,they always ask me if I have drugs,and can they search my car?...I resist the temptation to say"why do you need some?"
and just say "no sir" and "no sir."

In a way, cops are in the profiling business..this is not a good thing but they are looking for trouble,they know prisons are full of
people of color, and weirdos like me, so when they come across us,they probably think us more likely to be jail-bait.
None of this is O K or should remain that way. there are more African Americans in jail now, than there were slaves
during that period. (mostly victim-less crimes)
Major Native American activists are still in jail today without sufficient evidence.

Mexican Americans(yes Mexico is part of the American continent)are continually sent south when this was their state before it was (Ours? European white Christians) We are ALL boat people here.

I think I'll take my Kalimba and wander around the pubs around 1:00 am and see if I get in trouble.
Maybe we just need to get them used to it... But I'll be SURE to bring my I.D. I've heard they can detain us indefinitely without it,
Some things have IMPROVED since the sixties however,while othrs have gotten worse.
and I guess Its up to us to STAND UP for better treatment by the "Authorities" that prevail here.

However ,we'd be a LOT worse off without them.there is a dangerous "tweaker" underground here that will steal and damage anything they can...(use the back roads as a dump) I saw one go beserk one night in sebastopol passed me in his big four wheel drive, ran RIGHT over two cars
in the middle lane by Sushi Tozai (going like 70 miles an hour,then flipped his truck over into a side street, and fell out the door.
two cop cars and a sheriff had him surrounded in 3 min. and one of them was wearing full riot gear and had a very scary looking automatic weapon. When they need to ,they can be fast and accurate(or not) and powerful. They will also help you if you have a heart attack etc. trained in it. this service keeps a certain sanity here
a high tech,"wild west" would be a scary place to live.
It wasn't even in the paper the next day.

So PLAY ON BROTHER, call a few of us and we'll become the playing fools and the police will bergin to see the difference
between threats and treats.
Important topic Most of us have little inner profile mechanisms "what's HE doing in this neighborhood at this time of night" who hasn't thought that thought. liars say they never think that.. I am not a racist..but that old tape will run in my head.
must be the janitor.:hmmm:..
:angel: Nico

joehogan

06-23-2011, 12:30 PM

(quote from Nico) (I think I'll take my Kalimba and wander around the pubs around 1:00 am and see if I get in trouble. Maybe we just need to get them used to it... But I'll be SURE to bring my I.D. I've heard they can detain us indefinitely without it,)

<style>@font-face { font-family: "Times New Roman"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-weight: bold; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }</style> You do not have to show ID unless you are arrested. The police have the right to ask you for your name and address, whether you are under arrest or not. It is an offence to refuse to give your name and address and if you are arrested, the police may refuse to release you on bail if you don't. It is also an offence to give a false name and address. You only have to show proof of ID if you are actually arrested.

After you give name and address you have the right to silence.

The police officer must tell you their name, rank and where they're stationed if you ask them. They are supposed to have their ID badges on display at all times while they're on duty.

anathstryx

06-23-2011, 01:30 PM

<snip>. I've heard for years and years and witnessed racial profiling in Sonoma County (my husband has been a victim often). But now when it starts happening to my kids it's hitting a raw nerve!!!! Just want people to be aware of this who are not aware.</snip>

I've got a question. Is there a Citizen Police Oversight group in Sebastopol? Seems like I see a lot of complaints of various types here on Wacco about the Sebastopol police, (pedestrian harrassment, stings, racial profiling, etc.). It seems that I've also seen a message or two, probably posted by Barry, from Police Chief Weaver responding to some concerns brought up by Wacco-ites in the past (forgive me if I'm mistaken about this...I'm an elder with about one good brain cell to work with) so it seems he is, at least on the surface, interested in dialog with the community. A citizen police oversight group would have more weight taking valid concerns to the police chief to be addressed rather than individuals complaining at the watch commander's desk.

There is no shortage of activists in Waccoland. If there isn't an oversight group already in place...well............? If there is, folks should voice their concerns with them.

Anathstryx

Sabrina

06-23-2011, 03:19 PM

You do not have to show ID unless you are arrested.. I would still say it's safer to carry your id, don't you? Because if they think you match a description and the cop decides to assume maybe you're lying about your name, couldn't they arrest you or "hold" you to prove who you are?

"Mad" Miles

06-23-2011, 04:28 PM

There is no Police Advisory Board in Sebastopol. After the Jeremiah Chass murder by the Sheriff's and several other police induced fatalities, the PACH was formed in Santa Rosa.

Police Accountability Clinic and Helpline:

https://pachline.org/

(707) 542-7224

Based on my brother's experience with trying to work with the Sebastopol Police Department, he reports that Chief Weaver loves to talk and does it well. He's not so interested in listening.

As for the "Mumia is a copkiller" charge, anyone following the case knows that that is only technically true, in that that is what he was convicted of. But the case, and its history is much more complex. He has yet to be granted a second trial. That looks unlikely. What is most likely is that his sentence will be reduced to life, and hopefully commuted one day.

There's plenty of available evidence to cast doubt on his conviction, for anyone willing to take the time to look at it. It's rhetorical bomb-throwing to call him a copkiller. But that doesn't seem to stop some people. In fact, it seems to encourage them. Same goes for Leonard Peltier and others.

But what we've learned from The Innocence Project is that a death penalty conviction, is no guarantee of guilt. There's a reason the conservative governor of Illinois abolished the death penalty there. The number of reversed convictions showed him that our justice system is more flawed than many want to admit. And many of those flaws have to do with the inequities of Race in our country.

Finally, what are our rights with the police, and what the police may or may not do to us when we assert those rights. These two things are often contradictory.

The police often operate with impunity, as case after case shows. If there are no witnesses around, the results may be quite different than if there are. Every situation is unique, and has to be responded to as such. And if one is without social or economic status/power, the results are pretty sure to be different than if one evidently has such things.

That, of course, does not make it right, it's very, very wrong, unjust, but it's the reality of the society we live in.

My approach to Non-Violent Direct Action political protest is to, "run, run, run away, live to fight another day". Keep the action rolling but know when to withdraw, when the groups stamina is spent, or the Forces of Order have such and upper hand and they've started the beatdowns and other violence, and come back another day. This is tricky and I've seen it done badly many a time.

When it comes to individual encounters with the cops, on private matters, it's to stay schtum, cooperate, hope for the best. Totally sucks, but why give them an excuse to go to town on me? Discretion is the better part of valor.

The Police Accountability movement calls for better training, ethnic, gender and class awareness, and especially the need to evaluate for mental disturbance and not resorting to immediate use of force whenever challenged (which is pretty much SOP these days, with inevitable and consistently tragic results) better documentation of police and perp actions (dashboard cams, etc.), transparency when it comes to records of events (so that families of victims know exactly what happened, and have the evidence they need to prosecute if warranted, you can see how well that goes over with the cops!?), Citizen Review and Advisory Panels, Complaint Hotlines, trained teams of mental health counselors available to respond to decomping individuals, rather than an exclusive police response.

All of these reforms/measures tend to be fought tooth and nail by law enforcement. We've got a long way to go. And of course, the old mantra of, "We have no money!", rules. Even if almost unlimited expenditures on police and military goes without saying.

Everybody knows who investigates police conduct in the case of an incident involving fatality or alleged abuse? A neighboring police agency, that's who. Does that make sense to you?

Dixon

06-23-2011, 05:39 PM

As for the "Mumia is a copkiller" charge, anyone following the case knows that that is only technically true, in that that is what he was convicted of.

I would put it more strongly than that. Convicting someone of a crime, in this case murder, simply does not mean he/she is a murderer, even in a technical sense. It would only mean that in a world in which there was never a false conviction. And when the one convicted is a person of a minority race AND a progressive journalist/activist who is a thorn in the side of those doing the convicting, the likelihood that he/she is guilty shrinks considerably. I don't know whether Mumia killed that cop, but I do know one thing: there needs to be a fair trial, which hasn't happened yet. Just the simple fact that a court reporter testified that she heard Judge Sabo say, "I'm going to help them fry the nigger", not to mention numerous other problems, should invalidate the trial.

And, something I haven't heard anyone mention: What if he killed the cop in self-defense, or in defense of his brother? Don't we all have the right to defend ourselves or others from unprovoked physical attack? I'm not talking about cops using force to stop someone from raping, assault, murdering etc.; I'm talking about cops doing the raping, assault, murder, etc. We have a basic right to physically defend ourselves, up to and including shooting someone dead, if we're attacked by a butcher, baker or candlestick maker. Doesn't this basic right of self-defense apply when cops are trying to beat or kill us? If the answer is "No; cops are exempt", well, isn't that an indication of the degree to which we're living in a police state?

joehogan

06-23-2011, 05:42 PM

. I would still say it's safer to carry your id, don't you? Because if they think you match a description and the cop decides to assume maybe you're lying about your name, couldn't they arrest you or "hold" you to prove who you are?

I don't carry ID when I walk. If everybody carries ID then it might as well be the Law of the Land. America is the only country in the world where you don't need ID I believe. Bravo America! Let's keep it that way by exercising our rights. When a policeman asks me for identification, I point at my own face. This is me, I tell them. If they arrest me, I'll have my day in court, and God willing, the city will rue the day.

Imagery

06-24-2011, 12:44 AM

An awful lot of projection and painting with a broad brush here. No surprise really, given the topics involved.

Couldn't agree more, Mr. Miles.

"One thing that is clear is that most cops spend most of their time at work with absolutely nothing to do, yet they're trained to anticipate danger at any moment...so they are bored out of their minds, and always looking for an excuse to go into action. With the results that we see, over and over again.

"The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there, and it would have been his word that was trusted by his superiors, the court, and the court of public opinion."

Can you supply us numbers to back this up? Let's focus on Sebastopol - how many police interactions have there been in the last year? I'm talking stops where they run the person for wants & warrants, issuing tickets, arresting suspects, any and all law enforcement interactions. What percentage of the stops have involved minorities? How many times in the last year have there been officer involved shootings? How many complaints of excessive force? How many beat downs, shootings and killings have the police participated in around this town?

Furthermore, of course the police in an all-white town are racist.
This comment used a wide-angle paint sprayer to make sure she painted them all. Even after:

Most of the older Police I have dealt with are much more balanced people...

It may be hard to get an unbiased jury in Sebastopol, but then, 99% of cases settle before trial anyway once the judge rules that there exists a preponderance of the evidence. Using the courts is a viable option for getting results.

The results:
It's easy for them (the cops) to develop an us-vs.-them attitude...

Here's how I handle my thankfully infrequent encounters with police when they've pulled me over, or at demonstrations. I maintain a calm, "Yes Officer, No Officer", demeanor. I do not comment or argue with them. I only answer their questions and briefly as I can. I wait for them to direct me, I do not volunteer information or offer suggestions. I do not criticize them. Anybody who knows me must understand how difficult that is for me!?

What makes it so difficult? You treat them with respect, they'll treat you the same way. In my experience since moving back to Northern California, I've found that if I cooperate with them, they tend to respect my time, and detain me for the least amount of time possible. Jerk them around, make their job more difficult, like this suggestion:

"When a policeman asks me for identification, I point at my own face. This is me, I tell them. If they arrest me, I'll have my day in court, and God willing, the city will rue the day."

and this person will be detained (if not arrested) and spend a much LONGER time interacting with the police. For someone who obviously loathes police, this seems confrontational and counter-intuitive. It also seems like a very good way to reinforce the "us vs. them" mentality which leads to the racist behaviors.

I sent Sabrina a private message, which she encouraged me to share here.

I'm sincerely grateful that you came back and followed up in this thread. I completely and wholeheartedly believe that your son was doing NOTHING wrong.

The original post brought back memories of my late teens and early 20's which were spent in Southern California (Oxnard, CA) - a densely populated Latino town. Being of Latino descent myself, I was subjected to rousting on several occasions. Publicly, I gave a single example which was not to belabor the point, but to say I've been there.

I've also been handcuffed, forced to sit on the curb lit up like a street criminal, lined up while a witness drove by, for the same "vehicle break-in" charge of which your son was suspected. Ironically, I had just left a church group meeting, and while I protested my innocence and asked them to check with the church, it did no good. Ultimately I was cleared after the lineup, but no apology was made - they were doing their job. I have about half a dozen stories similar to this one during those early years, but I persevered.

I went to a local Neighborhood Watch meeting, with the intent of confronting the police officers - but instead wound up opening lines of communication with them. I opened my mind and heart, I listened to them, and they listened to me and my concerns. Long story short, I communicated with them, let them know how I felt, and joined the Neighborhood Watch/Patrol. They got to know me, and I never got hassled after that.

The point I'm trying to make is that we (as a community) need to open a heartfelt dialogue - have community meetings regarding the issue of racism and racial profiling in the community. I know it exists, I do not deny or in any way blind myself to racism and social judgement being rampant in America. However, that being said, I'd like to see something other than a lawsuit come out of this.

Lawsuits simply put people on the defensive - they close ranks, and it only serves to generate more suspicion and "us vs. them" attitude in the minds of the police "brotherhood". It does nothing for either side, really. As one post pointed out, that with preponderance of the evidence, most cases settle before trial. What they didn't point out is that most cases that settle do so without any admission of guilt. What they also failed to point out is that in the end, the citizens wind up paying the bill for the wrongdoing of the police, therefore there is no real accountability on the part of the officers.

I'm sorry to read about what happened to your son, but hopefully we can use this and other incidents for a positive purpose.

"Mad" Miles

06-24-2011, 03:23 AM

Imagery,

If you want stats on SPD conduct, I suggest you ask them. I doubt anyone else is collecting that data. I'm not, I don't get paid to do it. As for stats on the ethnic makeup of those rousted, I doubt even the SPD is collecting that. From my news reading, it seems police departments are loath to document such things. They don't want it held against them in a court of law. If you don't ask, and collect the info, it can't be used against you. That seems to be the policy.

In the links I provided and from easily googleable information it's pretty simple to come up with numbers. If you think the SPD is somehow special, exempt from the patterns elsewhere, feel free. As I am free to think anyone who holds that view is dreaming.

I'm not saying all cops are bad cops, not in the least. But if you think that all cops are good cops, you're not very attentive to the news. I was personally bum rushed late at night leaving Sebastopol, going north on 116, a couple of years ago, pushed to speed and then pulled over when I tried to let him by. It was a Sheriff.

Until he lit me up, I thought it was an obnoxious adolescent or young adult male who was tailgaiting me just to be an asshole. Turns out I was right, just didn't realize at first it was someone with a gun, a badge and an official vehicle who felt it was their job to act that way.

I watched another Sheriff who was in front of me, tail-gate and push someone down River Road, over the speed limit, without using his Christmas Tree lights, in broad daylight about five years ago. I called that one in.

I've been pulled over and given the "attitude test". Other times they acted civil and respectfully business like. I find, as I've already noted here, that the younger ones tend to be the most aggressive and arrogant.

I've written about all of those incidents here. Feel free to search for my more detailed accounts.

"You treat them with respect, they'll treat you the same way." This has sometimes been my experience. Other times it has not.

As I've gotten older, the former has happened more often then when I was young. Which was one of the reasons that I mentioned that they target the young in one of my earlier replies. The other reasons I claim this are from the news, talking to other people and observing the world around me.

Cops who are bullies, and some are, not all, are like all other bullies. They choose targets of opportunity that are no threat to them. In other words, those without social and economic power. Those without resources and recourse to retaliate and cause them discomfort.

From all reports, the means to weed them out, from the internal operations and procedures of police departments, are limited and ineffective, unless they really screw up big time, it gets recorded, goes on YouTube or something, and then deniability is no longer possible. The ones that get caught that way, are just the tip of the iceberg. The iceberg of bully cops, not all cops.

I have political allies who think that by the nature of our society, and the nature of the institution, all cops are brutal, are bullies. I don't bother to argue with them. Their minds are made up. Nothing I say is going to change their mind.

I think most cops are doing a job and for the most part try to do it well. But I also think some of them gravitate towards that job because they want to have officially sanctioned power over others. Those are the ones I worry about. Others want to help, to protect society. Some want to help, protect and have power over. Some just want a steady, decent paying job that has some excitement to it. I'm not their counselor of psychiatrist. I don't speak for them. I only speak based on my experience.

After years of going to demonstrations and non-violent direct actions, it became pretty clear that a certain minority of cops are aching to crack heads and administer pain at any and all opportunities. I've seen it happen too many times to ignore it. And after a while you can spot which of them are jonesing for that violence. It's the same excited look in the eyes, tightness around the jaw, etc. that the assholes had who used to beat people up at random in the pit or outside the club at Punk Rock shows in L.A. in the early eighties. Once you learn to recognize it, you can spot it a mile off.

At demos I've seen it many, many times. In some cops, and yes, in some demonstrators. But the cops are the ones with the pistols, rifles, clubs, shields, body armor, pepper spray, dogs, armored vehicles, water cannons, tear gas, motorcycles and shotguns. Not the demonstrators. Except for my brief time in Europe thirty years ago. Let's just say their demonstration culture is different than ours.

Certainly working in San Quentin gave me a different perspective. Since their job there was to save themselves first, and me second, if things jumped off. That was a very different relationship than out here in "the world".

podfish

06-24-2011, 08:35 AM

What makes it so difficult? You treat them with respect, they'll treat you the same way. In my experience since moving back to Northern California, I've found that if I cooperate with them, they tend to respect my time, and detain me for the least amount of time possible.
as Miles points out, that's not always true. He points out that some of the perks of the job are very attractive to those who want "sanctioned power". Also, to those who feel that there's not enough order in society and are moved to do what they can to correct that. I don't want to interact with either of those types if I can avoid it. And even the best of them are still people with occasionally stressful jobs that can lead them to less-than-positive interactions with the public.<br>
I'm reading a subtext, whether you intend it or not, that the police need defending here. I disagree. There haven't been any "off the pigs" comments in this thread. If anything, in general there's too strong a tendency to give them a pass because their jobs can be dangerous. I think that they need a lot of scrutiny (in a good way) because of their casual power over all of us. It's too easy to abuse.

Imagery

06-24-2011, 09:37 AM

as Miles points out, that's not always true. He points out that some of the perks of the job are very attractive to those who want "sanctioned power". Also, to those who feel that there's not enough order in society and are moved to do what they can to correct that. I don't want to interact with either of those types if I can avoid it. And even the best of them are still people with occasionally stressful jobs that can lead them to less-than-positive interactions with the public.<br>
I'm reading a subtext, whether you intend it or not, that the police need defending here. I disagree. There haven't been any "off the pigs" comments in this thread. If anything, in general there's too strong a tendency to give them a pass because their jobs can be dangerous. I think that they need a lot of scrutiny (in a good way) because of their casual power over all of us. It's too easy to abuse.

Dear Podfish,

I am NOT here to defend the actions of the police. I know that from time to time they make mistakes, as they are only human. I do agree, there are a few bad apples in the bunch. There is in almost any profession. I know that racism exists, to this day, despite trying to hide it. Despite the progress minorities have made towards eliminating it, it's a slippery beast. The point I'm trying to make is that not ALL cops are NOT trigger-happy, baton using, action-seeking street thugs with power trips. I don't believe it is fair to say things like:

""The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there, and it would have been his word that was trusted by his superiors, the court, and the court of public opinion."

and

Furthermore, of course the police in an all-white town are racist.

which serve absolutely no purpose but to instill fear and mistrust of ALL police. My questions asking for statistics was more to ask what the likelihood is that this kind of response would happen. Is the likelihood the same as seeing a red car while you're walking down the street (common), or are the odds of this happening closer to the odds of winning the lottery and being struck by lightning on the same day? Is this a rational fear? :hmmm:

All these statements do is instill fear and loathing. Calling the police on their "us vs. them" attitude, while actively promoting an "us vs. them" attitude in the community is hypocrisy at its finest. Perhaps instead of sitting behind our keyboards painting them from afar, how about opening lines of communication, getting the community together to form a police advisory board, studying the statistics, and determining where the problems lie. Perhaps if this officer has a large number of complaints against him, call for action to be taken. When we take the time to give a damn about our community, and step out from behind our keyboards - things can happen. Things can change.

Is there any among you who would dedicate some time to joining a police advisory board? Is there any among you who would take action to help change the attitudes, express your concerns, and spend time to help make the changes you want to see made? Or are all of you content to sit behind your keyboard?

I wonder what Chief Weaver would have to say if he were to put his :2cents: in? Perhaps I'll drop by and ask him to take a look...

joehogan

06-24-2011, 10:16 AM

and this person will be detained (if not arrested) and spend a much LONGER time interacting with the police. For someone who obviously loathes police, this seems confrontational and counter-intuitive. It also seems like a very good way to reinforce the "us vs. them" mentality which leads to the racist behaviors.

You assume a great deal, Imagery. I have several relatives who chose law enforcement as a life path and I totally forgive them for having been violent racists. It's easy now because they're dead, gone to their heavenly reward. The Sebastopol police are angels compared to what these guys were. But everything can get even better. We can all improve (yourself included) My point is all about promoting personal freedom. Of course there needs to be a balance between personal freedom and the rights of others, but if I'm walking down Main Street, I want to be protected from overbearing law enforcement. Unless we exercise our rights we will lose them. I'm not bashing police, I'm simply trying to keep the balance.

"Mad" Miles

06-24-2011, 01:51 PM

"I don't believe it is fair to say things like", "The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there..."

The modal term there Imagery is could. I did not write would, or should or probably. The only way your general and repeated concern/complaint makes sense, is if I had.

Since there are a sufficient number of examples where police abuse has happened over the years, and often has been downplayed, excused, lightly punished or not punished at all, I see nothing controversial, or biased, in my original claim. I try to use language carefully and clearly. That's why I used "could", instead of another more emphatic and declarative verb.

You've repeatedly proven here, not just in this thread, that you're a big fan of law and order. As in, "we need more of it!" and "When someone does something wrong, call the cops!" (Except, apparently when the cops have done something wrong. Then a lawsuit just breeds resentment and encourages the bad cops to hide and get worse in their behavior. I find this argument, uh, unpersuasive.)

I'm a fan of law and order when it is not overbearing, unjust, reactive and blind to nuance, circumstance, situation. And where that system of law and order is derived from a truly democratic social process. (Big can'o'worms in that last sentence. No doubt!) I think that's where we disagree.

You appear to accept things as they are, as a given not to be questioned. At least you appear to in your claims and arguments on this board over the last few years.

I would characterize your general stance as, "When in doubt, call the cops. Get the perps, throw the book at them! And if all that is unlikely, there's nothing wrong with a good mob carrying out some frontier justice!"

That stance of yours has always troubled me. And as everybody knows, I've called you on it when you've started to djinn up a posse. (Both literally and figuratively.)

I also think you're falling into a common logic trap here that often happens in arguments. Just because I say "A", does not mean I'm also asserting "Not A". In other words, the opposite of what I've affirmed is not necessarily being denied by me. In simple matters, "The sky is usually blue on a clear, sunny day.", also means, "The sky is usually not green, purple, red or yellow, on a clear, sunny day." (Unless we're on another planet with a different light spectrum, but this isn't a SciFi novel.)

If I say cops have been known to racially profile and are more inclined to be abusive of those with whom they think they can get away with it. It does not follow that I'm saying every cop, or even most cops, are racist abusers. I have not said the latter, I have not meant the latter. The word "some" is implied in the first phrase in the first sentence in this paragraph. General statements are not universal claims, unless specified as such.

That you read me that way says things about you, not me. The terms that come to mind are reactive, hypersensitive, defensive.

Your first response to this thread was to question Sabrina's claim that Olembe's roust last Saturday was racial profiling. Now you're saying that you have no doubt that some cops are racists and brutes.

I've been consistent in my opinions expressed in this thread. So have many others.

Have you?

"Mad" Miles

06-24-2011, 04:04 PM

How's about some more evidence everybody?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/06/24/116350/commentary-race-and-class-determine.html

Imagery

06-24-2011, 04:44 PM

How's about some more evidence everybody?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/06/24/116350/commentary-race-and-class-determine.html

While we're on the evidence bandwagon - https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20110411/ARTICLES/104111007

Backroom deal anyone? We agree on the fact that there IS racism and social status prejudice in America.

(quoting Imagery)"I don't believe it is fair to say things like", "The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there..."(end Imagery quote)

The modal term there Imagery is could. I did not write would, or should or probably. The only way your general and repeated concern/complaint makes sense, is if I had.

Since there are a sufficient number of examples where police abuse has happened over the years, and often has been downplayed, excused, lightly punished or not punished at all, I see nothing controversial, or biased, in my original claim. I try to use language carefully and clearly. That's why I used "could", instead of another more emphatic and declarative verb.

Miles, you COULD answer my questions about how often this scenario has happened in Sebastopol, but you won't. The scenario in which a Sebastopol officer would shoot an unarmed man for simply placing his hand on their shoulder in a non-threatening manner - well, I think the odds are around the same as you and I sharing the same DNA. That's what makes your statement so irrational.

What (if anything) are you going to do to change things, Miles? Sit securely behind your keyboard, making "general" statements which bash the cops and paint them (some = ?%) with the racist brush? If someone organized a community meeting with the police, would you attend? I'm sure these questions will go unanswered as well - but I have to ask them. Good friends (your description of your relationship with the family) would do something to promote positive change.

"Mad" Miles

06-24-2011, 08:54 PM

Imagery,

I've already addressed your request/demand for stats on the SPD. Ask them. Good luck getting an answer. Especially regarding racial profiling.

As for sitting down with the cops and talking nice... Today I was thinking I hadn't given you enough credit for proposing this. But the track record is that it has been tried, time and time again. To little or no avail. In Santa Rosa and parts nearby.

Are you familiar with the history of attempts in this region to establish Police Review Commissions? Mary Moore is a good go-to source for the history of the last forty years.

Did you read all of the information on the PACH website?

I thought not.

Hey, I'm not opposed to trying it once again. Knock yourself out. Go for it!

Me? I'll be a 99'er in a month or two. I need to find gainful employment. That's priority #1.

Looking for a teaching job in this time and place? We shall see.

Hey, if you're willing to hire me to investigate the history of SPD conduct, I'm your man/person!!

At my last job I made nearly $70K a year (minus $8K because of mandatory state furlough days. Still, far more than I ever expected when getting a teaching credential back in '02-'04. At least not just six years into a career as a public school teacher. Long story about how a one year program took two years.)

Can you match that?

Didn't think so.

(And by match, I mean hire me at that rate!)

I've made no demands on your time or efforts save to ask you to to understand and do a little study. Yet you insist on repeating "requests" that I dedicate myself to some cause that I have not, to my knowledge, signed up for. What makes you so presumptuous?

As for "promoting positive change", I've been an activist and organizer for thirty-five years. To the detriment of my own economic success. You have no clue as to what I've given for positive change. Even if I have provided an inkling into the history of my efforts in my writing here. (Just a glimpse, I've never laid out my entire political CV on waccobb.)

So, you're just bloviating brother, and not very effectively.

zenekar

06-25-2011, 10:37 AM

This is from the ACLU website. Also an entertaining video presentation of your rights if you're stopped.

https://www.aclu.org/knowyourrights

YOUR RIGHTS
- You have the right to remain silent. If you wish to exercise that right, say so out loud.
- You have the right to refuse to consent to a search of yourself, your car or your home.
- If you are not under arrest, you have the right to calmly leave.
- You have the right to a lawyer if you are arrested. Ask for one immediately.
- Regardless of your immigration or citizenship status, you have constitutional rights.

YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
- Do stay calm and be polite.
- Do not interfere with or obstruct the police.
- Do not lie or give false documents.
- Do prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested.
- Do remember the details of the encounter.
- Do file a written complaint or call your local ACLU if you feel your rights have been violated.

more at https://www.aclu.org/knowyourrights
_____

"Mad" Miles

06-26-2011, 05:51 PM

It looks like this discussion has petered out, and I have no objection to that. I'm adding the following as one of my interlocutors here contacted me via email a few days ago and asked me what my definition of a "roust" by the cops is. I prefer to have my discussions here in public, but I replied to that email. I also told them I might put my reply here as well. For what it's worth, here it is:

I define a roust as everytime police roll up, detain and do a background check, for no apparent reason. Especially if they do it in an aggressive and arrogant manner. You know about the "attitude test", right?

Often these rousts are excused by some vague, unsubstantiated claim that, "we had a report of someone who looks like you was doing ...X....", but that report is never verified, never documented. Often they don't even include the, "someone who looks like you", part. They seem to assume they can stop anyone, anytime, for any or no reason. The law says otherwise.

I think the cops have a right to stop, detain and question if one is doing something illegal (speeding, any other clear traffic violation). But just walking, skipping or hopping down the street, if one is not visibly impaired, is not sufficient reason.

And if you don't think bored cops looking for something to do, don't roust young males (primarily) of all colors and those who are not White more often, then you're not paying attention. It's a pretty well known fact across the land.

That we've learned to handle it, for the most part, and have become accustomed to it, does not make it right. It does not make it OK for them to do so.

You've heard of the Black guy known as The Walker in L.A. back in the eighties and nineties, who fought all the way to the state Supreme Court (if I remember correctly, it may even have been the U.S. Supreme Court, whichever, I'll bet he would get a different result these days) for the right to not have to carry I.D.. Remember that?

Have you heard of the random TSA sweeps that have been held as "exercises" in conjunction with local law enforcement? Some three hundred or more of them in the last year? Random swamping of transportation hubs (bus stations, train stations, downtown areas) where they stop and search the persons and luggage of everyone in an area, without warning and fairly indiscriminately? I just read about it yesterday on Facebook. What does that remind you of?

To me it is reminiscent of a Police State, similar to the German/Nazi occupation of Europe in WWII, or the Russian/Soviet "Socialist" gulag under Stalin and his successors. It's a slippery slope, and we've slid well down it with the War On Drugs and the idea that it's OK for cops to stop anyone they want, without reasonable suspicion or prior cause, just because they have a "hunch".

I would prefer to have this conversation in public on the board. For the entertainment and, who knows?, edification of others. This will be my only reply to you off board, via private email. If you want to continue the conversation, please hold it on waccobb.

I may choose to include most of the content of this email (mine in reply to you) on the current thread. I haven't decided yet. I'll conceal your identity if you wish (the person expressed no preference, in fact they did not reply), although I don't understand why it would concern you. I will not quote your email to me, of course, that would be up to you to share, or not.

Cheers,

Miles

************************

Finally, I would encourage everyone interested to look at the material on the PACH website. Especially the ACLU guide to addressing community / police relations issues. There's a lot of useful information there.

https://pachline.org/

Iolchan

06-26-2011, 11:27 PM

Good Thread, Kids...

Good thread kids; I have been readin' & watchin'
and waitin,' and wondering, just what to say;
to help you all see this sad story in context,
of the "the Bigger Picture" -=- as -=-They Say.

Now I once was young, too, and cam' from auld Berkeley
In the days When the fame o' the town was far Sung;
There were cops then, too - an' Sometimes they'd Arrest You,
For just be-in' long-haired, and foolish, and Young.

Yes back in the days when the township o' Berkeley
had an Accent that sounded like Cambridge, too,
Well, I'd also Ramble to towns Far from Berkeley,
And oft' as I rambled, my "arrest record" grew...

O well you might ask me, and also Inquire,
for the Causes o' why my "Arrest-Record" Grew...
And, I would inform you = as I'm doing Now:
'Twas A' for Nothing; I was just passing through.

= Mark Walter Evans=

rossmen

06-29-2011, 06:00 PM

traindays

07-01-2011, 09:22 AM

this is the problem. how do we want to be policed? the spd has just as many reserve officers as paid officers. the reserve officers are often young, have gone through the jc training and field training (takes about a year), and are licensed to shoot. they volunteer looking for experience and career (and law enforcement agencies are not hiring so what else is there to do)?

the culture of law enforcement in the us is "the thin blue line," us vs them, good vs bad. there are other ways. the spd operates in an economically segregated community, very low crime. yes and they jack the stats. the surrounding county provides a control reference. this is an opportunity.

chief weaver stands in the way. recently he cut his hours to balance the town budget. i think he can do more and have asked. his no was biased on confidentiality even though it was about the departments process with me. this isn't about citizen review, its about citizen involvement with justice. and the cops are running scared because their culture is challenged to change.

can we change our own culture of justice? can we see police as us rather than them? can we praise a lovingly raised young man for touching a nervous young cop and asking him how he was doing? and encourage the young man to seek more contact with law enforcement? our fear of the justice we know stands in the way.

All I know is the police in Sebastopol are really tight. I have a neighbor who frequents clubs at night to play professional pool, and he is convinced because he drives a nice, fast looking car...he is constantly tailed, pulled over by the police (never drunk). This has gone on for years.

I read this story, about the 19 year old walking down one of our streets at night and it is disturbing to me. I don't know if he was racially profiled...it was dark...however it seems clear he was being harassed when he was causing no conflict. However, since a car got broken into, I can see a cop wanting to check out stray people walking down the road. Anyway, what bothers me is the intimidation when this is a low crime area and I think kids hanging out at night and around downtown should feel relaxed and safe, and that includes from over zealous police. That is important to me as a mother and for all mothers and fathers for our kids. Thats a huge reason we live in Sebastopol, right?

It also bothered me, and do not know how to word well, as I know there have been incidents of police prematurely shooting 'suspects' from either lack of training, lack of something. I don't forget those stories, and it does add a realistic fear/concern to a cop giving this 19 year old a hard time (for no good reason is the beginning of the concern).

It was suggested a task force - one that would need to be created - may be heard by the police...and I am not clear if the following post said that was impossible or not. I can't help but wonder if it would help, in some small way, for the police to hear that parents, young adults and others are uncomfortable with our kids/citizens, being possibly profiled, prematurely addressed (for just walking down the street). We need to feel safe in our town...how can the police help us to feel safe?

I wonder, and I am a idealist, if formally presented in such a way as "we don't want the possibility of racial profiling happening"...that elimates a argument from the police that of course there was no racial profiling, but to be willing to hear real concerns about IF there is racial profiling what some of the consequences could be. My idealism is that at least it could be educational, help highlight for the police to be more cautious within themselves, etc.

I care...I am sorry about your experience Sabrina for your son. I grew up in the south...so much after most of the nasty stuff but I understand how racism kind of sticks in the groves for a long time. I am sensitive to racism perhaps as a result, however even more sensitive to innocent people getting treated with anything less than respect from police. Thanks for hearing my ramble. I usually don't respond to these threads but this one touched me. If folks do decide to form a task force I would want to be part of it.

anathstryx

07-01-2011, 10:04 AM

It seems that the discussion here dribbled away but it was inferred that police oversight groups have had little success in the past in Sebastopol, Santa Rosa, Sonoma county with a link for a police-victim support group in Santa Rosa. In my opinion, just because something hasn't worked in the past and there is a lot of resistance by "authority" to such groups doesn't mean one can't be formed now and another attempt made.

With some local media attention focused on the oversight group, it's voice would be alot louder, as well. The group would need a very savvy, articulate spokesperson/liaison to present their cases to the media and the police. Furthermore, an alliance with a councilperson (especially one who wants your votes) who is sympathetic to the issues would also be most helpful, adding some clout.

Here's a link I found some time ago on police oversight that seems to have some good info: https://www.parc.info/home.chtml

Anathstryx

daynurse

07-01-2011, 10:50 AM

I've held off responding to this thread because it has been almost 20 years since I lived in Sebastopol. These last two replies have spurred me into writing.

When I lived in Sebastopol, the police force was very small, I think 9 regular officers. They were indeed bored and tended to 'sweat the small stuff'. My 10 year old daughter was caught writing on a bridge in Ives Park with lipstick and was treated so harshly that she was overwhelmed. I wasn't called immediately. By the time I picked her up, she was traumatized. I complained to the officer who did it and ran into a huge defensive reply. Complaining to the chief left me frustrated.

During the same time period, two on-duty officers were, for some forgotten reason, checking out an empty warehouse and one decided to play a 'trick' on his partner. He hid behind a large box and popped out. To his surprise, he was shot in the shoulder. Huge obfuscation was apparent in the subsequent Seb. Times articles.

I was at a training recently for political organizers and public comment was mentioned as one of the most effective tools to make changes.

As for an oversight group. Yes, it is imperative. Don't underestimate the power of the 3 minute "public comment" at City Council meetings. You don't have to be talking about any item specifically on the agenda. If everyone who is living there (constituents) just shows up at the beginning of the City Council meeting, fills out the speaker card, and reads into the record your opinion about this, it will begin to make the newspapers and other medias as an issue.

Seems to me 3 minutes of your time and putting your stories, comments, suggestions and ideas on the record is something almost anyone can fit into their schedule. I especially recommend that the mom and son each take the time to do this.

There is a meeting this Tuesday July 5 at 6 pm. Who can go? Email me directly if you would like some coaching or have questions.

[email protected].
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Sabrina

07-01-2011, 11:24 AM

As for an oversight group. Yes, it is imperative. Don't underestimate the power of the 3 minute "public comment" at City Council meetings. You don't have to be talking about any item specifically on the agenda. If everyone who is living there (constituents) just shows up at the beginning of the City Council meeting, fills out the speaker card, and reads into the record your opinion about this, it will begin to make the newspapers and other medias as an issue.

Seems to me 3 minutes of your time and putting your stories, comments, suggestions and ideas on the record is something almost anyone can fit into their schedule. I especially recommend that the mom and son each take the time to do this.
There is a meeting this Tuesday July 5 at 6 pm. Who can go? Email me directly if you would like some coaching or have questions. [email protected].

We actually live in Santa Rosa, but spend a lot of entertainment money in Sebastopol since usually the best stuff is going on over there. If I have support from others, and someone coaches me on how to approach the city council in an effective way, I'd be willing to go, and to get my son to come, most likely. Anyone else want to speak on this? Encouragement?

Barry

07-01-2011, 02:06 PM

We actually live in Santa Rosa, but spend a lot of entertainment money in Sebastopol since usually the best stuff is going on over there. If I have support from others, and someone coaches me on how to approach the city council in an effective way, I'd be willing to go, and to get my son to come, most likely. Anyone else want to speak on this? Encouragement?
Consider yourself encouraged! :thumbsup: Note that Chief Weaver attends most City Council meetings. He's a nice guy and I'm sure he'd be happy to listen to your concerns and respond.

rossmen

07-01-2011, 05:52 PM

chief weaver plays nice cop, thats why he is chief. i think public comment at the city council meeting is a good way to get his attention. i am willing to show up and comment about my process with the spd. this would be along the lines of the spd says they are willing to use restorative justice with juvenal offenders, how about adults? is the spd willing to sit in a circle where all voices are heard about the actions they take?

citizen review of police is a different process which is more firmly resisted by law enforcement.

Consider yourself encouraged! :thumbsup: Note that Chief Weaver attends most City Council meetings. He's a nice guy and I'm sure he'd be apply to listen to your concerns and respond.

Barry

07-01-2011, 06:00 PM

Turns out that we already got Chief Weaver's attention. He sent me the following note along with his permission to post it:

I did research the incident and found the following:

Earlier on the evening when the young man was stopped, a Sebastopol resident's car was vandalized in front of his home. The officers said he should call the police if he saw or heard anything suspicious in the future.

Later that evening, the victim heard a loud "bang" near his vehicle. He exited his home, fearing the vandal had returned.

He saw one person in the immediate area; the young man we eventually stopped.

He called the police department, provided the young man's description, and guided the officer to the young man by providing updates to the dispatcher.

The officer responded to the citizen's call and contacted the young man. Not knowing if he was the suspect, a witness, or not involved at all, the officer began the encounter as a 'consensual encounter' rather than a 'detention'; hence, the "Are you okay" comment from the officer.

After a short conversation (the entire encounter lasted 3 minutes and 18 seconds), the officer determined the individual was not involved and ended the contact.

So, as you can see, the officer didn't select the young man at random (or because of his race) but rather was responding to a citizen's call.

It is also notable what the officer didn't do:

He didn't direct the young man to sit on the curb or the patrol car bumper, in keeping with the 'consensual contact' nature of the encounter.

The officer didn't place the young man in a 'restrained denention' (either in handcuffs or in the patrol car).

The officer didn't call for back up and no other officer arrived.

The officer didn't ask permission to search the young man nor did he search the young man.

Basically, the officer did the bare minimum to respond to the citizen's call with minimum inconvenience and discomfort to the young man. Other than not responding at all, he couldn't have really done any less.

And, I think the officer was successful in his low key approach, as the young man felt comfortable asking the officer how he was doing (which to me shows he wasn't intimidated). He also told his mother he felt the encounter was a 'joke'.

I just want you to know what really happened. Race place no part in this matter whatsoever.

Take care,

Jeff Weaver

Cheingrand

07-02-2011, 05:04 PM

I thank Chief Weaver for providing the other side to the story. Too often on this board, knee-jerk cop-haters jump at every opportunity to rant about police brutality, over-zealous enforcement of laws, and the good old days when the police were the good-guys. Whenever someone on this board stands up for the police, they are immediately branded as encouraging a police-state. I think the Sebastopol Police Department is well-trained and sensitive to our community. The "us versus them" mentality that several posters attribute to the police is far more in the minds of those whose default setting is to hate cops.

Dixon

07-02-2011, 05:37 PM

I thank Chief Weaver for providing the other side to the story.
As do I. Perhaps you saw the "Gratitude" I gave that post last night.

Too often on this board, knee-jerk cop-haters jump at every opportunity to rant about police brutality, over-zealous enforcement of laws, and the good old days when the police were the good-guys.I myself have already suggested on this thread that people should refrain from talking as if we know for sure that the cop did (or didn't) do something wrong. But to brand people who are a bit too certain that something was wrong "cop-haters" is, I think, an unjustified and provocative exaggeration. Perhaps you have not experienced unambiguous police brutality, racism or harassment, but some of us, including myself, have. If such traumatic experiences had happened to you or your loved ones, you too might be inclined to presume profiling or whatever in certain police encounters. Calling people "cop-haters" for that only polarizes the situation more.

Whenever someone on this board stands up for the police, they are immediately branded as encouraging a police-state. I have not seen that happen that I recall. An example, please?

natalie

07-02-2011, 09:19 PM

Looks like the Chief lawyered up and has his story straight.

Imagery

07-02-2011, 09:48 PM

Looks like the Chief lawyered up and has his story straight.
:hmmm:

lol.

If _____________ (insert deity of choice) came down from on high, and appeared before you to tell you that the story the chief told was the truth, would you become an atheist? From the sounds of it you would, in order to keep your belief that the police couldn't ever be simply doing their job.

Imagery

07-02-2011, 10:10 PM

Whenever someone on this board stands up for the police, they are immediately branded as encouraging a police-state.

I have not seen that happen that I recall. An example, please?

You've repeatedly proven here, not just in this thread, that you're a big fan of law and order. As in, "we need more of it!" and "When someone does something wrong, call the cops!"

You appear to accept things as they are, as a given not to be questioned...

I would characterize your general stance as, "When in doubt, call the cops. Get the perps, throw the book at them! And if all that is unlikely, there's nothing wrong with a good mob carrying out some frontier justice!"

That stance of yours has always troubled me...

...The terms that come to mind are reactive, hypersensitive, defensive.

Post #45 in this thread if you'd like the complete post.

rossmen

07-02-2011, 11:03 PM

this response from chief weaver is an excellent example of institutional racism. for him to conclude that race had nothing to do with it when the officer was responding to citizen suspicion of a young mixed race man demonstrates how unaware weaver is about being other than white in our society, or how the power he holds can reinforce racism.

two employees of mine experienced something similar a few years ago working close to the police station, detained for several hours for being brown and suspected by a white neighbor. of course the police need to pay attention to car vandalism, and they could also be better at community relations and safety if they understood more about racism.

Turns out that we already got Chief Weaver's attention. He sent me the following note along with his permission to post it:
I did research the incident and found the following:

Earlier on the evening when the young man was stopped, a Sebastopol resident's car was vandalized in front of his home. The officers said he should call the police if he saw or heard anything suspicious in the future.....
.....I just want you to know what really happened. Race place no part in this matter whatsoever.

Take care,

Jeff Weaver

podfish

07-02-2011, 11:32 PM

this response from chief weaver is an excellent example of institutional racism.. no, it's a poor example of institutional racism. There are plenty of examples of that - but in this case, he explicitly pointed out why that person was stopped. If you disbelieve him, that's one thing. But he directly addresses why the stop was made, and his explanation is that a witness gave him a description.
There are a zillion examples of institutional racism; there are also many people who believe that there's a "race card" or a "victim card" that's played unfairly. Let's not play into that by refusing to accept a direct response that addresses the question.

Imagery

07-02-2011, 11:38 PM

This response from Chief Weaver is an excellent example of institutional racism. For him to conclude that race had nothing to do with it when the officer was responding to citizen suspicion of a young mixed race man demonstrates how unaware weaver is about being other than white in our society, or how the power he holds can reinforce racism.

I'm curious, Rossman - how would you handle the situation? Would you as a "victim" or "reporting citizen" like to be questioned by the police about your biases, your racial leanings, the motives why you would point towards someone of mixed race - in order to have your concern taken seriously? What if they feel you are supporting institutional racism by reporting a person of a non-white ethnic origin? Would you like them to simply ignore your complaint?

According to the account written by the police chief, it sounds to me like the citizen came out of his/her house, and saw someone - and pointed the finger. The fact that the "victim" kept the dispatcher updated with information leading to someone - that would lead me to believe that the "victim" was the one pointing the racist finger (if there was one being pointed), and that THEY are the racist to be dealt with.

I think his blanket statement was a misstep - because it doesn't acknowledge the part the "victim" (reporting party) played in the entire incident. His statement that "Race place no part in this matter whatsoever", in my opinion, was meant in the context of the actions of the police officers.

Dixon

07-02-2011, 11:47 PM

Yo, Imagery, thanks for your expeditious response to my request for an example of "Whenever someone on this board stands up for the police, they are immediately branded as encouraging a police-state." I can see how the excerpt you presented could be seen as an example of that, and accept it as such, though Cheingrand's use of the terms "Whenever" and "immediately" make his statement so absolutistic that it's unlikely to be true on that account. (In other words, does it really happen every time, and immediately?) But the point is taken.

What I'd hope we all can agree on is that, as with so many issues, it's possible to err on either side here--seeing more police misbehavior than there really is, or seeing less than there is. Let's agree that police brutality, corruption, racism and arrogance are real problems in many (most? all?) communities, possibly including Sebastopol, while also recognizing that not every purported instance of such police misbehavior is a real one. And I think the issue of some sort of citizen oversight of police behavior, rather than trusting all such oversight to other cops, makes a lot of sense in light of the "conflict of interests" issue. Sound good to you?

Imagery

07-03-2011, 12:11 AM

I've always known, and acknowledge that there are a few bad apples in any given profession. I realize and acknowledge that racism is, unfortunately, alive and well throughout the United States. This afternoon, as I sat outside the new coffee place on Main Street, watching an interracial couple walk by, I reflected on how far we've come as a society...and realize that we still have a long, long way to go.

Do I believe that the police never do any wrong? Not at all. They're human, and part of being human is to make mistakes. Humans bring biases of their own life experiences to paint their view of what they see when they read threads like this.

Honestly, when I first read the OP, my mind went back to when I was handcuffed, sitting on the curb, spotlight on me for everyone passing by to see...when I had just come from a church gathering. THAT incident (among others) set my bar for "profiling" and "harassment" higher than simply being stopped and asked for an identification.

From having been a Neighborhood Patrol member in the crime-ridden neighborhood in which I lived in Southern California, my mind asked a question about the story. A question like, how many businesses are open (at 11pm) in the downtown area that cater to (or allow) an under 21 crowd? The only businesses that came to mind were Safeway, CVS Pharmacy and Lucky's supermarket. It doesn't really matter, though - the point was that he was simply walking down the street playing his musical instrument and dancing along. He wasn't doing anything illegal.

After hearing the account from both Sabrina and Chief Weaver, I would tend to believe that I'd be asking the RP (a.k.a. vandalism victim) looking for answers from them as to their racial biases and how racist they are.

rossmen

07-03-2011, 12:25 AM

i appreciate the response from chief weaver, it seems clear to me that he is reading us:) this is my primary goal in writing on this thread and several others having to do with the spd. i believe him about his department process. you misread him, the resident was not a witness.

i draw meaning from chief weavers use of the word resident. this is important to him in my experience:(

if the question is was the young man racially profiled by the spd then chief weavers response addresses that. i am simply pointing out that writing that "race had nothing to do with the matter" doesn't seem to be true according to weavers account. i just want him to know this.

if i were police chief i would.

no, it's a poor example of institutional racism. There are plenty of examples of that - but in this case, he explicitly pointed out why that person was stopped. If you disbelieve him, that's one thing. But he directly addresses why the stop was made, and his explanation is that a witness gave him a description.
There are a zillion examples of institutional racism; there are also many people who believe that there's a "race card" or a "victim card" that's played unfairly. Let's not play into that by refusing to accept a direct response that addresses the question.

theindependenteye

07-03-2011, 07:22 AM

>>>this response from chief weaver is an excellent example of institutional racism. for him to conclude that race had nothing to do with it when the officer was responding to citizen suspicion of a young mixed race man demonstrates how unaware weaver is about being other than white in our society, or how the power he holds can reinforce racism.
>>>... of course the police need to pay attention to car vandalism, and they could also be better at community relations and safety if they understood more about racism.

I'm confused. You suggest that police need to pay attention to the resident's complaint, yet state that the cop's attempt to do so was an act of racism. So how should the police have handled this report? Ignore it? Stop *everyone* out on the street within a two-mile radius? Raid the neighboring houses? Would there be fewer charges of "profiling" here if the person had been stopped for being "young" or for being "male"? Does that never happen?

If I were the parent involved, I'd feel as unsettled as the woman in this case. And it's obvious that racism exists everywhere on the planet, including those arenas of Sebastopol that seem to be off the planet. But having spent many years in Milwaukee, Chicago, and Philadelphia, I guess I have an extremely different standard of what constitutes profiling, racism, and police terror.

But my question is serious: if you were the cop responding to this citizen's report, what would you have done differently?

Confusedly--
Conrad

Ernieman

07-03-2011, 08:03 AM

I have read and followed the threads regarding the 'racial profilling" incident in Sebastopol. It is very good to have the Chief respond with clarity. (At this time, I assume it is a real response from the Chief and not a hacker intent on mischief! ) As First Vice President of the Santa Rosa- Sonoma NAACP, the NAACP is and was willing to followup on the fact of the case.

For future, reference, the NAACP is still a vital organization and will directly involve itself in issues regarding racism. We prefer written complaints on individual issues. The NAACP has combated institutional racism for over 100 years and will continue to so so in Sonoma County.

Obviously, great strides have been made since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 in combatting institutional racism in the USA (Yes it still exists.) The police leadership in Sonoma County struggles to balance policing policies and training with an individual officer's action on the street. We have not forgotten Jeramiah Chass and monitor training and policies of the local Departments with respect to cultural training, dealing with the mentally impaired, and policies on lethal force. It is good to have a Chief in Sebastopol that will respond to the public without a huge outcry. It is also good to have a public that monitors the police agencies and maintains a very healthly respect for civil liberties.

Please do not hestitate to contact the Santa Rosa-Sonoma County NAACP for future reference. We meet the second Tuesday at the Steele Lane Community Center. You may reply to this email as well.
Ernie Carpenter

<hr align="left" SIZE="3" width="50%" noShade="">https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/Website-Reply.jpg (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=136937#post136937)

dysbtwn

07-03-2011, 09:32 AM

This is a great video from a lawyer explaining why you should never agree to be "interviewed" by the police, ever.

Assert your 5th amendment rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
An law school professor and former criminal defense attorney tells you why you should never agree to be interviewed by the police.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

rossmen

07-03-2011, 12:17 PM

without having been there i can't say how i might have responded differently. overall i think the officer did pretty well. my comment was about the chief's report and his conclusion that race had nothing to do with the matter. this is a dangerous assumption for someone in the role of a police chief to make.

if i was chief i would not assume this. i might contact the young man to listen to him directly. i might review the diversity training in my agency. i might be open to dialoging on a community bulletin board. i might explore the options of restorative justice offered to me and my department.

this was a department response to a resident report. besides the officer who made the stop probably the dispatcher was actively engaging with the resident and a supervisor was closely monitoring the situation. i don't think it would be appropriate for any of them or the chief to question the resident directly about possible prejudice. i would want them to hold this as a possibility, in others or themselves, in dealing with something like this.

>>>this response from chief weaver is an excellent example of institutional racism. for him to conclude that race had nothing to do with it when the officer was responding to citizen suspicion of a young mixed race man demonstrates how unaware weaver is about being other than white in our society, or how the power he holds can reinforce racism.
>>>... of course the police need to pay attention to car vandalism, and they could also be better at community relations and safety if they understood more about racism.

I'm confused. You suggest that police need to pay attention to the resident's complaint, yet state that the cop's attempt to do so was an act of racism. So how should the police have handled this report? Ignore it? Stop *everyone* out on the street within a two-mile radius? Raid the neighboring houses? Would there be fewer charges of "profiling" here if the person had been stopped for being "young" or for being "male"? Does that never happen?

If I were the parent involved, I'd feel as unsettled as the woman in this case. And it's obvious that racism exists everywhere on the planet, including those arenas of Sebastopol that seem to be off the planet. But having spent many years in Milwaukee, Chicago, and Philadelphia, I guess I have an extremely different standard of what constitutes profiling, racism, and police terror.

But my question is serious: if you were the cop responding to this citizen's report, what would you have done differently?

Confusedly--
Conrad

scamperwillow

07-03-2011, 01:10 PM

I just wish you'd included the quote in context, as it was a quote from another member here.

He did.

Imagery

07-03-2011, 01:23 PM

He did.

Thank you so kindly for your comment. It gave me a very good dose of laughter, and you know they say that laughter is good for the soul.

https://www.sonic.net/~roo/attribution.jpg

At the time I posted my reply, which you quoted, they had NOT placed it in context (of quoting another member). Podfish did so after reading my post, which I felt gave better context to what was being said.

"Mad" Miles

07-03-2011, 03:39 PM

https://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2011/07/hackers-expose-racisms-underbelly.html?spref=fb

Sabrina

07-04-2011, 01:00 PM

Wow! I take one HOT day off from the computer (you all must've been in air conditioning, or?) and look at all the buzz on this subject since I was here. I love that all this discussion is going on. Here are my thoughts on the Chief Weaver's forwarded comments (appears he's only responding through someone else - or is there another discussion on some other board, elsewhere?).

....Earlier on the evening when the young man was stopped, a Sebastopol resident's car was vandalized in front of his home. The officers said he should call the police if he saw or heard anything suspicious in the future.

Later that evening, the victim heard a loud "bang" near his vehicle. He exited his home, fearing the vandal had returned.

He saw one person in the immediate area; the young man we eventually stopped. I would really be curious as to whether the victim "saw" an older woman walking down the street, or any different "type" person, would they have considered this to be a suspect. Since it was dark out, I realize that with the common fashions for young men these days, it would be hard to see my son's skin color unless a light shined on him. So without speaking with the victim we will never know how well he could "see" my son. Or did he say, "a young black man just walked by".
He called the police department, provided the young man's description, and guided the officer to the young man by providing updates to the dispatcher I wonder "what" the description was of my son, and what were the updates? Then Weaver says
The officer responded to the citizen's call and contacted the young man. Not knowing if he was the suspect, a witness, or not involved at all, the officer began the encounter as a 'consensual encounter' rather than a 'detention'; hence, the "Are you okay" comment from the officer. . Why would the officer not know whether this was a suspect or a witness? Obviously they were considering him at first to be a suspect. First my son says that the officer did not ask him "are you Ok". It was my son who asked the officer if "he" (the officer) was ok, and put his hand on the officers shoulder. This naivete was what scared me, as his parent, because I have heard too many stories of accidents where a police officer may feel under possible attack, and shoot the person or something. My son says that he can't recall the actual words the officer first used, but that he'd had the light shined on him, the officer approached him seeming very nervous and with a feeling that he (the officer) knew all about something going on, and that he thought my son could be a part of it. These words were not spoken, just the feeling my son got. And he said the officer did not ask him if he was ok. When I try to ask my son what exactly was first said, he feels frustrated (and maybe a little embarrassed that this has gone on so long like this on the thread). He doesn't fully understand why some of us feel it is very important, the conduct of police with citizenry, and how important the relationship between all is. He's just awakening to these possibilities for injustice, which hopefully he never has to endure.
After a short conversation (the entire encounter lasted 3 minutes and 18 seconds), the officer determined the individual was not involved and ended the contact.

So, as you can see, the officer didn't select the young man at random (or because of his race) but rather was responding to a citizen's call. Yes, this holds true to my son's account. But we still have no idea on the "race" factor, so like several others have said, this should not be stated. Also, we don't know if the victim was influenced by the "race" factor. What was the "description" given?

So, as you can see, the officer didn't select the young man at random (or because of his race) but rather was responding to a citizen's call.

It is also notable what the officer didn't do:

He didn't direct the young man to sit on the curb or the patrol car bumper, in keeping with the 'consensual contact' nature of the encounter.

The officer didn't place the young man in a 'restrained denention' (either in handcuffs or in the patrol car).

The officer didn't call for back up and no other officer arrived.

The officer didn't ask permission to search the young man nor did he search the young man.

Basically, the officer did the bare minimum to respond to the citizen's call with minimum inconvenience and discomfort to the young man. Other than not responding at all, he couldn't have really done any less. These are all true. It is true that they did not go through all of the above, as has happened to others, such as Imagery when he was profiled incorrectly as a young man in LA. I appreciate that there was not further harassment of my son, as there well should not have been.

And, I think the officer was successful in his low key approach, as the young man felt comfortable asking the officer how he was doing (which to me shows he wasn't intimidated). He also told his mother he felt the encounter was a 'joke'. I would say that the reason my son did not feel intimidated by the officer is because he's been pretty protected and sheltered by his parents, and has not had first hand experience with police intimidation, which is good. He's heard true stories about police intimidation, but has not experienced it first hand, and has a kind of "every human is 'good' deep inside type of approach to people including police. And clearly the officer was not a trouble maker sort of guy, just responding to the call, and found that my son was not a suspect, with just a brief interview. My son did not think the whole thing was a joke, I said he thought the whole thing was funny, especially because the officer seemed so nervous, and because my son knew he did nothing wrong. But what's not funny is what history has shown with racial profiling or any other kind of mistaken identity, such as NAACP member Ernie Carpenter reminds...
Obviously, great strides have been made since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 in combatting institutional racism in the USA (Yes it still exists.) The police leadership in Sonoma County struggles to balance policing policies and training with an individual officer's action on the street. We have not forgotten Jeramiah Chass and monitor training and policies of the local Departments with respect to cultural training, dealing with the mentally impaired, and policies on lethal force. It is good to have a Chief in Sebastopol that will respond to the public without a huge outcry. It is also good to have a public that monitors the police agencies and maintains a very healthly respect for civil liberties.Chief Weaver continues,
I just want you to know what really happened. Race place no part in this matter whatsoever.
Well, as far as what "really" happened is always subject to interpretation unless we question everyone involved - victim, officer involved, my son, and maybe a jury to decipher it. We're not going there at this time. As far as Race playing no part of it, only god will know. But too often, in recent history, racially profiling is involved; very often on an unconscious level. Perhaps it was the victim that said "there's a young black man walking down the street!" and it made the dispatch all the more nervous and send an officer out quick. Or maybe the victim only saw a young man with a hood and could not see his color as it was dark. We don't know these sides to the story. Clearly, if my son was the only person walking at that hour, the officer was just responding to the call, and there would not be race involved (unless the victim said "young black man!".

But regardless of whether there was a racially biased element or not to the whole situation, I am still concerned with any possibilities of such, and feel that it should not just be sloughed under the rug as just a routine check. This said, I'm also against "any" kind of profiling or stereotyping of young men etc. I think if the police want to be seen as keepers of the peace there needs to be more done to change there image, so that they too don't have a bad stereotype for them selves either. I have had very good experiences with officers in my neighborhood of Santa Rosa when I've needed to call on them. I know not all cops are bad, and only a one bad apple can ruin the whole bunch.

Well, it's another blasting hot day, and I'm off to the coast or the water or somewhere. I'll be back LATER to see what response there is next.

someguy

07-04-2011, 08:00 PM

Wow! I take one HOT day off from the computer (you all must've been in air conditioning, or?) and look at all the buzz on this subject since I was here. I love that all this discussion is going on. ...
Has it occurred to you that maybe the person who called the police in the first place may have been black themselves? Maybe they were white with a black spouse like yourself? Maybe even just plain ol' white without any racist intentions? Why after learning that your original allegations were false, do you just turn slightly and point your finger at someone else based on more assumptions of racism? Don't you think that making these types of baseless allegations (especially in public) are harmful to our community? Take for example your original (false) allegation in your title to this thread... I find that damaging. And now if a victim calls the police and describes a person who they think has done something illegal as black, you claim that to be a racism fueled call. Are we not allowed to describe people as they are? Don't you think that skin color would be an appropriate way for police to identify a suspect in many circumstances? Should they go on height, build and approximate age alone and never bring up the supposed perpetrators race???:hmmm:

Like I said before, this type of speech and thought are responsible for a lot of racial tension that further amplifies the problem of racism on both sides of the fence. It also creates an inhospitable environment for all of us and I wish you wouldn't take part in this type of baseless rhetoric. I also wish that you would apologize to Chief Weaver for your obviously false statement that is the title of this thread. And who knows, you may have, you really have no obligation to say if you did or didn't, I'm only wishing here... To me, the saddest part is that some people obviously have little faith in other people's ability to be good people, just like you know you are deep down. Its sad that some are so paranoid and fear based that they immediately throw out sympathy, empathy, thoughtfulness, and just react, often overreacting. I hope some of us here reading this thread can learn a thing or two.:Yinyangv::2cents:

daynurse

07-04-2011, 08:09 PM

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

It also creates an inhospitable environment for all of us and I wish you wouldn't take part in this type of baseless rhetoric.

rossmen

07-04-2011, 08:38 PM

someguy your response to sabrina inspires me to respond to some comments you made about one of my posts. i don't think we were thinking of the same definition of the term institutional racism. you seem to understand this term as overt racially determined policy, such as affirmative action?

i also wonder how you think i would define this term?

Has it occurred to you that maybe the person who called the police in the first place may have been black themselves? Maybe they were white with a black spouse like yourself? Maybe even just plain ol' white without any racist intentions? Why after learning that your original allegations were false, do you just turn slightly and point your finger at someone else based on more assumptions of racism? Don't you think that making these types of baseless allegations (especially in public) are harmful to our community? Take for example your original (false) allegation in your title to this thread... I find that damaging. And now if a victim calls the police and describes a person who they think has done something illegal as black, you claim that to be a racism fueled call. Are we not allowed to describe people as they are? Don't you think that skin color would be an appropriate way for police to identify a suspect in many circumstances? Should they go on height, build and approximate age alone and never bring up the susposed perpetrators race???:hmmm:

Like I said before, this type of speech and thought are responsible for a lot of racial tension that further amplifies the problem of racism on both sides of the fence. It also creates an inhospitable environment for all of us and I wish you wouldn't take part in this type of baseless rhetoric. I also wish that you would apologize to Cheif Weaver for your obivously false statement that is the title of this thread. And who knows, you may have, you really have no obligation to say if you did or didn't, I'm only wishing here... To me, the saddest part is that some people obviously have little faith in other people's ability to be good people, just like you know you are deep down. Its sad that some are so paranoid and fear based that they immediately throw out sympathy, empathy, thoughtfulness, and just react, often overreacting. I hope some of us here reading this thread can learn a thing or two.:Yinyangv::2cents:

pbrinton

07-05-2011, 02:17 AM

Here are my thoughts on the Chief Weaver's forwarded comments

Sabrina

First of all, I am by no means someone who believes the police can do no wrong, or that they are tireless guardians of our safety. I believe that racial profiling is regularly practiced by the police in this country, and that we are perilously close to becoming a police state. I am shocked and disgusted by the recent spate of killings by police officers, and the fact that the perpetrators are almost never punished, and when they are it is with a slap on the wrist.

Having said all that, I see absolutely no evidence of any of this in this case on the part of the police. I find the chief's account credible. The only factual point you take issue with is the following:

Why would the officer not know whether this was a suspect or a witness? Obviously they were considering him at first to be a suspect.

Why is this obvious? As you yourself agree, the officer behaved in a restrained manner, not even reacting adversely (as he was in fact entitled to do) when touched. What about his behavior makes it obvious that he considered your son a suspect? I would say his attitude (which, as I say, you do not deny) shows the opposite if anything.

Other than this, your only criticism on anything on the part of the police is the chief's final remark that he just wanted us to know what really happened, and that race played no part in the matter. You say (paraphrasing) that we cannot know for sure what really happened without interviewing everyone involved. This seems to me to be philosphical nitpicking. You do not dispute any of his facts, and that, in my opinion, is what really matters. As for the "race played no part" bit, yes, he should have added "on the part of the police" which is what I am pretty sure he meant.

The only person you make any case at all of racism against is the original caller, referred to as the victim. But even here, you do not have any factual basis for the accusation, only speculation. Maybe he said this, maybe he said that. And let us suppose that he did say something like "There is a young black man walikng down the street; you should check him out" to the police dispatcher. How is this racial profiling? It is a simple statement of fact. Your son fits that description. If there had been multiple people on the street and he had only mentioned the black one, orsingled him out for suspicion in some way, then in the absense of other supporting information, that might in fact be a case of profiling. But your son was the only person on the street at the time.

Your son was questioned because he was walking near where a robbery had recently taken place, not because he was black. Even if he was not the perpetrator, he might have seen something, and no matter what his color it was quite legitimate to check him out. When the officer was satisfied that he was not the perpetrator, and did not know anything about the crime, he let him continue on his way. It seems by your account that he suffered no harm, either physical or emotional.

You say that your son was not afraid of the officer because you have sheltered and protected him from the harsh facts of street life (again I paraphrase). I would suggest you are not doing him a favor in this respect. You owe it to him for his own safety to make him understand how to behave towards the police so as to not put himself in danger. It is odd to me that you are so determined to find fault with the police, yet you allow your son to think it is safe to touch an officer.

You assert baldly in the title of the thread (a powerful message that accompanies every post in the thread) that your son was racially profiled. Not "might have been" but was. This is a direct accusation against the Sebastopol PD. In spite of all the sound and fury this thread has produced, you have failed to support this assertion. Instead you fall back on pure speculation about the victim, and the argument that even if it did not happen in this particular case, it is happening all over and we should be aware of it. But that would not have made such a snappy title.

In my opinion you owe the Sebastopol PD an apology.

Patrick Brinton

Barry

07-05-2011, 10:22 PM

rossmen

07-06-2011, 10:39 AM

while chief weavers account is credible, and i assume accurate, it is by no means complete. there could very well have been racial profiling. the title of this thread doesn't include the spd. and the residents car was vandalized, not robbed.

thanks for sharing your opinion. i appreciate sabrina hanging in here with a discussion so deeply personal, her son's health and safety, and important, how we are all policed.

Barry

07-06-2011, 03:24 PM

Let's bring this thread back on topic of racial profiling and related local issues (ie policing). Whether or not Columbus was a Mensa member, etc. is welcome to continue in WaccoTalk. Thanks! :waccosun:
Those posts have been split off to a new thread in WaccoTalk called "Columbus, Slavery, & Class War (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?81439-Columbus-Slavery-amp-Class-War&p=137157#post137157)"

Sabrina

07-06-2011, 04:45 PM

I am definitely due a reply here, as I really didn't resonate too well with the comments made by a few above.

You assert baldly in the title of the thread (a powerful message that accompanies every post in the thread) that your son was racially profiled. Not "might have been" but was. This is a direct accusation against the Sebastopol PD. In spite of all the sound and fury this thread has produced, you have failed to support this assertion. Instead you fall back on pure speculation about the victim, and the argument that even if it did not happen in this particular case, it is happening all over and we should be aware of it. But that would not have made such a snappy title. I don't feel the need to change the subject title nor apologies to anyone, as pbrinton suggested. I don't know Chief Weaver, nor live in Sebastopol, nor hold anything personal against Chief Weaver, the Sebastopol PD, nor the young officer who approached my son. I simply was an upset parent, knowing the possible tragedies that have come at the hands of police (yes, police in general have developed a negative stereotype thanks to a few bad apples ruining the whole bunch with such known facts as the existence of racial profiling, and killing the wrong people, etc) such as Oscar Grant (https://sfbayview.com/2009/oscar-grant-young-father-and-peacemaker-executed-by-bart-police/https://) and Jeremiah Chas, (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20090113/NEWS/901130251) and just today I got this article forwarded to me reporting examples of encounters of mistaken identity by police, the opening part of the story ending in the mistaken murder of a child: Why Do the Police Have Tanks? The Strange and Dangerous Militarization of the US Police Force. (https://www.redwoodcurtaincopwatch.net/node/843) Yes, it is very hard to "prove" racial profiling or racism period without tons of witnesses, or blatant findings that were put in writing. That is exactly WHY it is a good idea to have a "flashy" title that gets attention. Although, I was not intending to HAVE a flashy title that got attention; I had NO idea that this thread would draw so much attention, and frankly I'm pleased that it's had 1793 views now, as I write. To me, it's all about Education, communication, and awareness. I have NO problem apologizing when an apology is due. So far I've not heard Police Weaver say his feelings were hurt. If he did, or the victim, or the young officer, I would probably apologize that all of the talk hurts their feelings, or anyone's for that matter, but NOT apologize for the subject at hand. It is NOT my topic alone, but many many many people feel these issues should be made aware of and openly spoken about. Perhaps, like many things in the western part of the US, (especially Sonoma County or Sebastopol for that matter) we will be the leaders in a new kind of peace officer - one who practices intuitive training and breathing techniques to calm the adrenalin rushes associated with terror - perhaps trained in Aikido - and back to the old fashioned shooting to stop the culprit vs. shooting to kill.

My fears are partly about Racism, and the militarization of the police force as well (it's the militarization that I feel brings in the adrenalin rushed fear of people who (perhaps have been dummed down.) as was it Day nurse who said that? I can't find the exact quote. I'm not saying Sebastopol has tanks (I don't know) -

I'm also certainly NOT saying all cops are bad. Heck no. Many are out there who really want to help. Last night I was missing my lovely son (who's so much in question here) in Healdsburg. The Healdsburg police Dept. was extremely helpful even though they did not need to do a thing since he was definitely not qualified to be a missing person. The two officers I was speaking with in the dept. were both actually people of color. They were very nice, and very helpful.

pbrinton

07-07-2011, 12:25 AM

I don't feel the need to change the subject title nor apologies to anyone, as pbrinton suggested.

To save space I will not quote the whole post.

We could certainly get into a discussion of the militarization of the police, and I am sure we would agree on a great deal, and Barry would gently move us over to WaccoTalk. That is not what this thread, and particularly its title, are about. You have accused the Sebastopol PD of unprofessional behavior which you have failed to substantiate. Even granting everything else you say, this fact remains. Nowhere in your post do you claim that the accusation you made was in fact true. If I understand your argument correctly, you claim that it is legitimate to say something untrue in the title of the thread because that way you get more attention, though your were not in fact seeking attention. I would take issue with both parts. If you have made a public accusation that turns out not to be true, then the only ethical course is to withdraw it and apologise. And if you were not seeking attention, then you would not be posting on WACCO about it.

The bottom line here is that to substantiate your accusation you have to show that your son was treated differently because of his color than an otherwise identical white kid, doing the same thing in the same place. You have not described any mistreatment that he suffered, so it is hard to see how the white kid could have been treated any better. Perhaps you are saying that the white kid would not have been stopped and questioned? This seems highly unlikely to me. In fact I would have an easier time believing that he was profiled for being a young male than for being black. Though I hasten to add, for fear of fueling the fire here, that I do not think that that happened either. I think that it was perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for the officer to check your son out, and even you cannot point to anything he did wrong.

Patrick Brinton

joehogan

07-07-2011, 08:16 AM

If you have made a public accusation that turns out not to be true, then the only ethical course is to withdraw it and apologise.

The bottom line here is that to substantiate your accusation you have to show that your son was treated differently because of his color than an otherwise identical white kid, doing the same thing in the same place. unlikely to me. In fact I would have an easier time believing that he was profiled for being a young male than for being black
Patrick Brinton

<style>@font-face { font-family: "Times New Roman"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 8pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-weight: bold; }p.MsoBodyText, li.MsoBodyText, div.MsoBodyText { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 14pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }</style> I believe it is a widely accepted fact that all across the USA, people are profiled by police. An internet search will provide many examples. Thirty years ago, I myself, and hundreds of other long haired young men were profiled by the Sebastopol police. The Sebastopol police had a very strong reputation as profilers of longhairs back then. I believe that this profiling was widely supported by many Sebastopol residents who didn’t appreciate the influx of hippies. Before that, I grew up in a fairly gritty inner city neighborhood, so I was well accustomed to being stopped and questioned by police several times a day for no explained reason.

There are numerous lawsuits around the country about police profiling black or brown drivers. Police profile. It’s one of their tools. For them, it’s probably very useful and efficient. Of course police deny this, because it’s illegal. So when a police chief explains something that happened on the street, he may be correct, or he may be covering his ass. One is probably as likely as the other. Maybe the citizen who called the police was the profiler, I don’t think we’re every going to know that either. But Pbrinton should know that young males, especially young black males are profiled every two minutes in the USA. When police shoot a black teenager in Sebastopol, that’s profiling also. If Jeremiah Chass was white, he’d have had a much better chance of survival. This causes mothers of young black men to worry. Yes, the Sebastopol police chief gave a reasonable explanation of the situation. Is it the truth? Who knows? But, more likely than not, police profile. Maybe the thread should be renamed, “Was my son racially profiled in Sebastopol?”

Joe Hogan

pbrinton

07-07-2011, 11:11 AM

I believe it is a widely accepted fact that all across the USA, people are profiled by police. An internet search will provide many examples. Thirty years ago, I myself, and hundreds of other long haired young men were profiled by the Sebastopol police. The Sebastopol police had a very strong reputation as profilers of longhairs back then. I believe that this profiling was widely supported by many Sebastopol residents who didn’t appreciate the influx of hippies. Before that, I grew up in a fairly gritty inner city neighborhood, so I was well accustomed to being stopped and questioned by police several times a day for no explained reason.

This is all true, and should make us alert to such problems when they arise, but none of this speaks to the actual case at hand.

So when a police chief explains something that happened on the street, he may be correct, or he may be covering his ass. One is probably as likely as the other.

Actually in this case one is not more likely than the other. We do have the account of the person who was most intimately involved here, the young man who was stopped, who says that the chief's account is accurate. We also have the fact that, as I am getting a little weary of saying, Sabrina has failed to point out any ill-treatment her son received at the hands of the officer. Remember this thread is under General Community, and is about a specific incident, which has since been hijacked into a generalized critique of police profiling in general, apparently under the theory that if it happens often, it probably happened here. Ironically this could be seen as an instance of profiling against the officer; what is the difference between saying this, and saying that black people commit a lot of crimes, so the chances are that this black person committed this crime? (Please note that I am not endorsing the view that black people commit more crimes than white, but rather giving the thought pattern that produces the phenomenon of profiling.)

Maybe the citizen who called the police was the profiler, I don’t think we’re every going to know that either.

Perhaps, but since there is no evidence that he was, and since the original accusation was against the officer and only expanded to the original victim when it became apparent that the first accusation did not hold water, it seems a stretch. In any case I would be much less indignant about a stray racist member of the public than about a racist member of the Police Department, who is employed by the city, and therefore by the citizenry at large.

Maybe the thread should be renamed, “Was my son racially profiled in Sebastopol?”

This would be a considerable improvement since it would at least acknowledge the possibility that the answer is no.

Patrick Brinton

zenekar

07-07-2011, 11:18 AM

pbrinton

07-07-2011, 04:51 PM

As Sabrina explained, the heading is what it is because of her initial response from her experience being married to an African man and having mixed race children. We can all chime in with opinions and statistics but it's entirely different when you live that experience.

Now here you hit exactly on the nub of my objection. I understand this explanation, and I can empathise with it. We have all acted unwisely from our emotions at one time or other, and said things in the heat of the moment. Mostly we come to regret it, especially when others are harmed because of it, such as having their professional reputations publicly smeared. What I am missing is the natural followup to this statement, which is "but now I have had some time to think about it rationally I realize that I had no basis for my accusation, and I am sorry for it."

The positive aspect of this thread is that it sparked a conversation about racism which is rampant in this society, institutionally and subliminally from birth. Eurocentrism and assumed white entitlement and privilege has created much devastation on this planet and it still does -- from European's "discovery" of this old continent to the present. I agree that the discussion should continue under this heading about the general topic of racism.

Is an untrue and ill-considered accusation really the only way we can find to spark such a discussion? There is an entire section of Wacco (WaccoTalk) devoted to talking about just such matters. Or you could write an article for the Articles and Comments section. Just leave the Sebastopol PD out of it unless you have real grounds for complaint.

Patrick Brinton

"Mad" Miles

07-07-2011, 05:12 PM

The lighter the skin, the shorter the prison term for Black women. Study (https://www.theroot.com/views/lighter-skin-shorter-prison-term).

podfish

07-08-2011, 04:55 PM

I stumbled on this post (https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/) and it seemed really apropos to where this thread has gone...

from kind of an interesting, similar discussion, actually. If you're curious: it's a reaction to a Richard Dawkins comment (https://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/07/05/richard-dawkins-and-male-privilege/#more-34178), similarly insensitive to context.

dysbtwn

07-09-2011, 05:48 PM

I found an interesting group who are "policing the police" in New Hampshire with organizations spreading up over the country to document police and judicial misconduct. All it takes is buying a police scanner (RadioShack), learning the codes, having a decent video recorder with good audio recording and being an observer which is entirely legal as long as you don't break any laws and are on public property.

https://www.copblock.org/

What CopBlock does is simply follow the police around with video recorders to record their interactions with the community and offer advice on constitutional rights to those who are stopped.

Take a look at their site and what they have observed and some of the complete overstepping of bounds in our country and corrupt and violent/brutal police conduct and ask yourself why is Sebastopol so special that it would never happen here. It was only a few years ago when 5 years ago when a young, 16 year black, unarmed, Sebastopol high school student was killed by the Sheriffs for no reason, and while they county admitted no "wrong doing", they settled and paid $1.75 million in damages, essentially admitting they were wrong. It can and did happen here.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20090113/NEWS/901130251

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

This was written by Ben Franklin, with quotation marks but almost certainly his original thought, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (https://books.google.com/books?id=W2MFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270t#PPA270,M1) (1818). A variant of this was published as:

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

This was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759); the book was published by Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts (https://www.futureofthebook.com/stories/storyReader$605) that were used in it.

An earlier variant by Franklin in Poor Richard's Almanack (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Poor_Richard%27s_Almanack) (1738): "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

I'm just blown away by those here in West County who have the naive concept we still live in the land of "freedom", but can't/won't look around at the complete destruction of those freedoms over the last 10 years, who have never read the "Patriot Act" which was sitting, already written in a drawer just waiting for the right opportunity to rush it through Congress, which low and behold happened just after Bush took office. It appears most citizens enjoy living in a culture of fear around here, are fine with police stings, entrapment, happy to have their genitals groped when going through the airport, are okay with having their phones and internet wiretapped without warrants or probable cause, the list goes on..

Here's another article regarding our creeping Police State..

https://www.alternet.org/rights/151150/america%27s_creeping_police_state/
America's Creeping Police State-Imperialism abroad is destroying what is left of our democracy at home. From warrantless wiretapping to warrantless door-busting, this is what a police state looks like.

Sabrina

07-10-2011, 02:03 PM

“Was my son racially profiled in Sebastopol?” or
My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St. How many people feel super strong about changing the title? There are a lot of folks viewing this thread. I am not sure the subject should be changed because when racial profiling is actually "proven" is extremely rare without such things as "Cop Watch" programs. If I was more set in my life financially, I would definitely take more time to go down to the city hall, start up or take part in other police cop watch programs, as Attila, I believe, or was it Miles or Erny Carpenter, who mentioned the police watch group that's already started in Sonoma County. I'm aware of it, get announcements for the meetings, but have not been able to attend, due to time constraints (ultimately money constraints - as I am Constrained to my computer here home where I work). Since I am on the computer a lot, this is where I find some time to take action. I have had, and so have many I know had story after story of events by people of color that sound a whole heck a lot like there was racial profiling or racial prejudice going on - but there were no witnesses, or ways to "prove" it. Patrick Brinton has stated at least 3 times that I am "accusing" the Sebastopol police Dept. of racial profiling. He uses the word "accusing" in at least 3 posts, the first of which was
You assert baldly in the title of the thread (a powerful message that accompanies every post in the thread) that your son was racially profiled. Not "might have been" but was. This is a direct accusation against the Sebastopol PD the second time is:

The bottom line here is that to substantiate your accusation you have to show that your son was treated differently because of his color than an otherwise identical white kid, doing the same thing in the same place. and a third time:
Perhaps, but since there is no evidence that he was, and since the original accusation was against the officer and only expanded to the original victim when it became apparent that the first accusation did not hold water, it seems a stretch. My title is not an accusation - as PBrinton makes it sound - like I'm filing a formal complaint with an accusation - that finally leads to a law suit. The title is an "OPINION". It is my opinion that my son was racially profiled at some point in being pulled over. Thanks to officer Weaver's account, we now know (which I did not, after my son was pulled over) that there was a victim that also gave a "description". What was the "description"? How did the cop know to check my son for the "description"? Yes, there are MANY variables involved in this whole incident, but as I've said before, I am not prepared to simply step down and say "oh, there's no proof, so I shouldn't say anything" especially when my entire family and many others I know that are brown or black skinned have had similar experiences - we cannot ever know for sure "WHY" it appears that more blacks are harassed than whites, without cameras or witnesses in place, and it's become common knowledge that there are more blacks / browns in jail than whites. Here's a recent article showing that there are more blacks in jail than there were slaves in 1850 https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/black-men-prison-system/. Why is that? And for the second time, P Brinton, (Miles asked you earlier) if my son was not a suspect, than what was he?

natalie

07-10-2011, 03:12 PM

Patrick Brinton, Stop trying to silence people by applying legal standards that would apply to win a lawsuit, but do not have any relevance whatsoever to a public message board.

podfish

07-10-2011, 04:15 PM

or How many people feel super strong about changing the title? There are a lot of folks viewing this thread. I am not sure the subject should be changed because when racial profiling is actually "proven" is extremely rare without such things as "Cop Watch" programs. interesting question to ask. There really are two strong themes reflected in this thread, probably one reason why it's lived so long. You can see which theme resonates strongest with each reader. These two perspectives don't seem to me to arise from different ethics, either - as do many of the arguments on this board and other places; I think most people commenting here share the view that racism in our society is pervasive and a long-standing problem. But some are focusing on the "accusation" implied in the title, and resist having the police tarred by that implication. If you want to view that charitably, you can take it that those with that point of view find it such an abhorrent thing to be accused of that they don't want the accusation made without uncontrovertible evidence, and so won't let it go. The other posts are using this incident as a springboard to talk about larger issues and other similar occurrences, and seem way less concerned with parsing this encounter carefully.
As this thread progresses/drags on, belaboring the details of the specific incident seems pointless. The discussion hasn't turned toward vilification of the police; debate about how to view this exact incident seems a distraction.

pbrinton

07-10-2011, 11:35 PM

Patrick Brinton, Stop trying to silence people by applying legal standards that would apply to win a lawsuit, but do not have any relevance whatsoever to a public message board.

I have made no attempt to silence anyone. I have simply stated my own opinions. The standards I have applied are not legal standards, but ethical standards, which I believe have relevance in every aspect of our lives.

Patrick Brinton

pbrinton

07-11-2011, 12:50 AM

Patrick Brinton has stated at least 3 times that I am "accusing" the Sebastopol police Dept. of racial profiling. He uses the word "accusing" in at least 3 posts, the first of which was the second time is: and a third time: My title is not an accusation - as PBrinton makes it sound - like I'm filing a formal complaint with an accusation - that finally leads to a law suit.

Do you prefer "allege"? You stated as a fact something that you had no evidence for that was derogatory against a police officer about his conduct in the line of duty. In other words you unjustly attacked his professional integrity. If you do not consider this to be something you should apologize for, that is your privilege. I have stated my opinion.

The title is an "OPINION". It is my opinion that my son was racially profiled at some point in being pulled over.

Then you should have said "I believe my son was racially profiled". And what do you mean, "at some point"? Either he was treated differently because he was black or he was not. I have asked you before, what different treatment do you think an otherwise identical white kid behaving identically would have received? Do you think he would not have been stopped? Even you do not allege any mistreatment during the encounter, so it is hard to see how our white kid would have been better treated in that respect, so it seems to be the fact that he was stopped that you are saying was discriminatory.

Thanks to officer Weaver's account, we now know (which I did not, after my son was pulled over) that there was a victim that also gave a "description". What was the "description"? How did the cop know to check my son for the "description"?

I am sorry, this is just getting silly. You seem to be just casting about for any reason to feel indignant about the incident. You can look at pretty much any set of circumstances and make them look suspicious by asking these kinds of questions. If you really want to understand police procedures, or how they choose who to stop and question and for what reasons, and how they communicate information to each other about crimes and suspects, go talk to the police about it. You could even join a ride-along program; perhaps you would start to understand the other sides of the issue. You might find that cops are people too, and are not some homogenous group that all act the same way. You might find that black people get stopped and questioned for perfectly good reasons sometimes, and just because a black person is stopped it does not necessarily mean he has been profiled. What would you have them do? Do you want them to refrain from stopping someone because he is black, even when they have good reason to?

it's become common knowledge that there are more blacks / browns in jail than whites. Here's a recent article showing that there are more blacks in jail than there were slaves in 1850 https://www.laprogressive.com/law-and-the-justice-system/black-men-prison-system/. Why is that?

Could we stipulate that for the purpose of this discussion nobody here (as afar as I know, and least of all me) denies that people of color are discriminated against on a daily basis, and that we have a huge distance still to go in the matter of relations between the races in this country. All that you say along these lines is true, and new evidence of the situation emerges every day. So we are in agreement on this. I feel that you are continuing to attempt to persuade me, and I do not need persuading.

However none of this has any bearing on my objection. If the thread had been on WaccoTalk, and titled appropriately, I would not have had any problem with it. You presented it it as a matter of immediate concern to the community, saying that one of its members had been racially profiled, and that is the aspect I addressed, and it would save time and space if we could confine ourselves to that in this thread. And no, I am not trying to silence anyone, as someone else alleged. I say talk all you want about it, but do it in the appropriate place and in an appropriate manner.

And for the second time, P Brinton, (Miles asked you earlier) if my son was not a suspect, than what was he?

My very first post answered this question.

Your son was questioned because he was walking near where a robbery had recently taken place, not because he was black. Even if he was not the perpetrator, he might have seen something, and no matter what his color it was quite legitimate to check him out. When the officer was satisfied that he was not the perpetrator, and did not know anything about the crime, he let him continue on his way. It seems by your account that he suffered no harm, either physical or emotional.

This thread is becoming repetitious. You have certainly had plenty of opportunity to make the case stated in your subject line, and in my opinion you have failed. I have no quarrel with your analysis of the experience of people of color in our society. However (once again) the fact that it happens a lot does not mean that it happened this time, and unless you have some actual evidence that it did, and not just questions, you have no right to say that it did.

Patrick Brinton

pbrinton

07-11-2011, 12:57 AM

I'm just blown away by those here in West County who have the naive concept we still live in the land of "freedom", but can't/won't look around at the complete destruction of those freedoms over the last 10 years, who have never read the "Patriot Act" which was sitting, already written in a drawer just waiting for the right opportunity to rush it through Congress, which low and behold happened just after Bush took office. It appears most citizens enjoy living in a culture of fear around here, are fine with police stings, entrapment, happy to have their genitals groped when going through the airport, are okay with having their phones and internet wiretapped without warrants or probable cause, the list goes on..

I am astonished. Do you really think that a majority of West County people feel this way? It is certainly not my impression. Maybe I do not get about enough.

Patrick Brinton

Dixon

07-11-2011, 02:42 AM

Patrick Brinton, Stop trying to silence people by applying legal standards that would apply to win a lawsuit, but do not have any relevance whatsoever to a public message board.
This is an example of the logical fallacy known as the ad hominem attack--i.e., attacking the person rather than addressing the issues--in this case by making an insulting and manifestly untrue assumption about Patrick's motivation (that he is "trying to silence people").

At the risk of redundancy, let's understand that, yes, racism is alive and well, and yes, cops commonly racially profile young black men among others. In some cases, racism is undeniably present, such as when racial epithets are used. But there was nothing about this case that comes anywhere near proving that Olembe was treated any differently because of his race. The fact that many cops are racist simply does not mean that every time a cop questions a black guy there's racism going on.

I know and like Sabrina, Olembe and their family. I understand that being upset, and having experienced indisputable racism in the past, could motivate someone to blurt out something that's worded in an unfortunate way. "My son was racially profiled" is a statement that goes beyond the data in this case; in other words, it's an accusation which, while possibly being true, is just as likely to be false, and is simply unsupported by the facts that have been mentioned.

So the question is, "How certain should we be before we publicly accuse someone of doing something bad?" I would argue that the Golden Rule suggests that we should be very certain indeed before publicly accusing anyone of something bad. Most of us, including me, have been falsely accused of something at one time or another, and it's no fun, nor does it improve relations between people. No social problem, including racism, will be improved by insulting, false accusations, only worsened. Sabrina's a good person, but in this case her emotions trumped her sense of justice, empathy, and logic. Framing the issue of profiling in this case as a question rather than an accusation (and it was undeniably an accusation) would have been more constructive.