Nuclear Power Plants -- Yet Another Concern

[Claire]

This is a true story.
In the late 70's I lived on a farm in Washburn, Illinois. As this farm had a 7 acre lake we were at one point befriended by a man who wished to fish the lake and we talked to him quite a bit over the course of a few months.
At the time, he had been working to build the LaSalle County Nuclear Power Plant in Northern Illinois. (I am 98% sure that it was that power plant.) The tales he had of the day-to-day goings on there were harrowing. He said that when the facility was finished being built he was taking his family and moving far away, upwind.
He said that the builders were lazy and feckless in the extreme. OK Lazy, fine, whatever. Feckless with Nuclear Power?? He said that because of the nature of the design most of the guys would simply nap in the inner containment area in shifts because if anyone ever came, they would get fair warning from their fellow workers outside, while chalking up hefty labor union wages. They thought they were quite clever in this. He detailed the lax attitudes, the arrogant and ignorant nonchalance of his fellow workers and how, to make up for wasted time, they would hurry through the rest of the work. Much of this consisted of pouring cement and he said it was done very shoddily. He swore that there were cracks and unstable walls throughout the job and that these guys could not have cared less. He also stated that he felt that there was absolutely nothing he could do about it.
Here's the clincher: He told us that when the inspector came on his regular rounds he had no idea what he was actually supposed to be looking for (at?) and the official would have to be given a tour by one of the workers but was essentially clueless. I don't remember particular details but the jist is there.
Given the inherent dangers of nuclear power it is appalling that we really do need to factor in shoddy workmanship to at least one facility, and surely it cannot be the only one. From what I hear, in Japan they may ultimately be relying on the cement basemat to contain any melted fuel or the mixture, corium (https://mitnse.com/2011/03/17/on-worst-case-scenarios/). I am pleased to see that LaSalle has a very good record so far. May it ever be so until the end of time, but shit does happens. Has anyone heard how the New Madrid Fault in the Midwest has been increasing in activity? (Talk about a very bad scenario...)
It brings to mind the year that our County Fair (in Illinois) hired a notoriously misguided and crazed neighborhood guy to help assemble the rides. None of my older brothers' friends who knew this would go near the roller coaster or double Ferris wheel or any ride that year. That was a doable precaution, whereas ...
It is just such madness, such hubris to think that this is safe energy. But, I'm sure I'm singing to the choir, here.
As I'm trying to choose a title for this post, It seems impossible to find something appropriate. This is, of course, hearsay, but I totally believed him. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the village idiot could be hired to build the inner containment walls of a nuclear power plant. Heck, we had one as a recent President!
We all know it's crazy, don't we? We certainly don't want radiation poisoning. And I don't want to spread the fear. But here we have yet another US President still supporting Nuclear Power. What are we to do?

[ItsaNewDawn]

thank you for sharing your story!
I have a feeling that Obama is being 'mediator' btw groups for and against nuclear power.
the legislation and stuff wont move if he doesnt be middle man. that doesnt mean he is ''Pro'' nukes.
being a leader is tough! anyways, just to maybe help us all relax a lil about that. i hope.

i feel that this conversation of nuclear power is up now and gladly!
we can use this bummer time for also creating the new future of what we Do want. lets continue when we can, to change things to be more in harmony w nature and other fellow human beings.
its possible!
thanks for getting the conversations going!
blessings~

["Mad" Miles]

...
I have a feeling that Obama is being 'mediator' btw groups for and against nuclear power.
the legislation and stuff wont move if he doesnt be middle man. that doesnt mean he is ''Pro'' nukes.


Sorry, It's A New Dawn,

President Obama is on record as PRO Nuclear Power. His administrations policy is to develop new nuclear power plants. They are shepherding loan subsidies through Congress to provide the money for these plans. Actually, I think they just passed, but a quick google would confirm or deny whether it's a done deal.

He supported nuke electrical generation while campaigning.

Whatever you want to think and feel about him, your statement bears no discernible connection to his well known record as an advocate for nuclear power generation.

He did reasonable things last year, by renewing our nuclear weapons treaty with Russia. Including reductions in agreed upon stockpiles.

(Don't worry any Pro-Nuke Weapons readers, there will still be enough to incinerate human civilization multiple times over, leaving a glowing wasteland across a vast swath of the planet, that would be incapable of supporting any life, for months, even years after. Whoohoo!)

His stand on nukes for electricity generation is to be completely for them. The Fukushima Daiichi catastrophe has not changed his tune. Other than some happy talk about reviewing the safety of existing plants and designing and building "safe" ones in the future.

If down the road he does start to waffle, I will welcome it.

But don't get your hopes up. Look at who his major corporate campaign donor was, GE. Among other things General Electric is in the business of promoting nuclear energy, and building "new" nuclear energy plants.

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be cowboys."

[ItsaNewDawn]

thank u for your opinion. Im wondering if he has actually started construction on any new plants?
sometimes u have to join the party to guide the show.

maybe we could contact ge, or continue letting our congress folks know whats up w our wants for no nukes.??
lets not give up creating and changing~~



Sorry, It's A New Dawn,

President Obama is on record as PRO Nuclear Power. His administrations policy is to develop new nuclear power plants. They are shepherding loan subsidies through Congress to provide the money for these plans. Actually, I think they just passed, but a quick google would confirm or deny whether it's a done deal.

He supported nuke electrical generation while campaigning.

Whatever you want to think and feel about him, your statement bears no discernible connection to his well known record as an advocate for nuclear power generation.

He did reasonable things last year, by renewing our nuclear weapons treaty with Russia. Including reductions in agreed upon stockpiles.

(Don't worry any Pro-Nuke Weapons readers, there will still be enough to incinerate human civilization multiple times over, leaving a glowing wasteland across a vast swath of the planet, that would be incapable of supporting any life, for months, even years after. Whoohoo!)

His stand on nukes for electricity generation is to be completely for them. The Fukushima Daiichi catastrophe has not changed his tune. Other than some happy talk about reviewing the safety of existing plants and designing and building "safe" ones in the future.

If down the road he does start to waffle, I will welcome it.

But don't get your hopes up. Look at who his major corporate campaign donor was, GE. Among other things General Electric is in the business of promoting nuclear energy, and building "new" nuclear energy plants.

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be cowboys."

["Mad" Miles]

thank u for your opinion. Im wondering if he has actually started construction on any new plants?
sometimes u have to join the party to guide the show.

maybe we could contact ge, or continue letting our congress folks know whats up w our wants for no nukes.??
lets not give up creating and changing~~

You're welcome!

There are no new plants under construction in the U.S. There is a concerted push to build them. The cost of insurance in the early eighties, along with the work of our anti-nuclear power movement, along with relatively cheap oil, stopped new construction.

There are efforts to stop the subsidies of new construction, but the measure has passed to fund them. The disaster in Japan may end the momentum for new plants, but that remains to be seen and it's incumbent upon us, to make sure they're not built and the existing ones taken offline and decommissioned. As for the waste? There is no viable solution, but storage in place is the least, worst option..

By the way, most of what I wrote is not opinion, it is verifiable fact, well known to those who observe and monitor these issues. It's printed in the news, as developments accrue.

Bad news from Fukushima, I hear... Radiation from #3 leaking into the sea. But anyone who knows how these machines work, could tell you that blasting the reactor vessel with sea water, is going to contaminate the water and in lieu of functioning cooling systems (powers out, hydrogen explosions damage, superheating fuel cores) that water is going to go back to where they sucked it from. The questions are, how much, how often and where, when it comes to the radiation dispersal/pollution/toxic effects.

Sleep tight everyone!

[Claire]

The questions are, how much, how often and where, when it comes to the radiation dispersal/pollution/toxic effects.




Given the possibilities of disasters: earthquake, tsunami and nuclear accident, this makes California look a wee bit safer. Folks in the East and Midwest talk about how crazy we are to live here. Well, I feel saner just looking at this map. (Although I understand that any nuclear incident is dangerous for all.)

https://money.cnn.com/news/specials/nuclear_power_plants_locations/index.html

["Mad" Miles]

https://money.cnn.com/news/specials/nuclear_power_plants_locations/index.html

Claire,

I noticed this on a different map the other day.

Kind of puts pay to the standard comment from easterners and mid-westerners, "You Californians are crazy! How can you live there? I never would!!!" and then they list the litany of endemic natural disasters here.

But I try not to play the provincial pride game, no real upside other than smug chauvinism, and that's nothing to brag about.

We're all downwind, we're all downstream, with this stuff, there is no hiding place. At least not eventually.

[Claire]

Claire,

But I try not to play the provincial pride game, no real upside other than smug chauvinism, and that's nothing to brag about.

We're all downwind, we're all downstream, with this stuff, there is no hiding place. At least not eventually.

Hey Mad Miles, I agree with you 100% on everything you've said.

And the pride thing? Oh boy. The fates have a lot to say about that. Something along the lines of, "Try humility so we don't have to hand you humiliation." Ok, I get it! mercy! :)
i allow myself a bit of pride in my garden, though, knowing full well I can't take credit for the wonder of the plants.

Now, about Obama, what about this $10 million he's taking from the Coal Industry for his re-election campaign?
Someone told me this, but I have not seen it in print.

[Claire]

Humans have evolved to the point of, how you say, Pretty High Tech. We have arrived at a high plateau of possibilities. Super computers, medical science breakthroughs, amazingly refined engineering and highly developed materials. All this and so much more!

And still, there has been no use of robotics at Fukushima. And no program for it in place. Incredible! I'm sure the world at large could cough up a quick-learning nuclear plant hero-robot to, what?, at the least take a good look around?? Shedding some light, relaying information in due course? Surely we have the capabilities now, in addition to an entire generation raised on technology.

Let's see, within my own family one of my nephews is a top computer geek. Another studied bio-engineering at Stanford and a third is a mechanical whizphys. (As a cute little 3 yr old, he took the family VCR to pieces, to see how it was built and how it worked. After his parents saw that, freaked, and reconstructed it at his instruction, the VCR worked for many years.) I'm guessing that these 3 guys alone could come up with a useful, robotic worker. Another nephew could deliver them pizzas. (My awesome nieces could arrange the logistics for it to actually happen.) it seems the resources are available.
One would think Japan....Well, surely there's a suicidal robot or at least a depressed one that could be useful in these times. Or should have been designed and constructed before these unmaintainable facilities were fired up. It still wouldn't guarantee anything but it should have been in place first.

What an absurd scenario: a hideously dangerous factory that desperately needs repair in order not to poison all the people and the land that sustains them. Yet sending in inspectors and workers to mitigate the dangers puts them at the highest risk of illness or death. An entire industry deadly beyond belief and unable to be fixed, in case of accident. Now that's planning!
Basically, it's War against the People, War against their Land, their own Planet.

At least so far, our Earth's fate seems to be in the hands of a benevolent goddess, thank Ye.

Nuclear Power at our stage of evolution is a real sorry idea. Just because an awesome Beast has been discovered and harnessed, this does not guarantee that Humans can control It. We are not the Masters in this case. And we are talking about the so-called positive use of nuclear energy, not even addressing the weapons issue.
Let's see the nut job who believes in the pro-nuke spiel go in to Fukushima and help fix things. Go on, perfectly safe, right? Don't forget your little yellow booties!

It so obviously lame. They need to get a Clue!!

[Claire]

IMPORTANT!!! I posted this on the Nuclear Madness thread, but it is too pertinent not to copy to this thread also.




Senator Feinstein is Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Energy and Water. $36 Billion for the Nuclear Industry is on the table this year! Thanks yet again, Obama!
I no longer have the direct link that sent this particular petition to her office, but I'm sure someone can provide it. Below is her response. This is important NOW! Write, call!


Dear Ms. Ossenbeck:

Thank you for writing to express your opposition to loan guarantees to support the development of nuclear power plants. I appreciate the time you took to write and welcome the opportunity to respond.

I believe the earthquake and tsunami which struck Japan on March 11, 2011, and caused systemic failure at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station has demonstrated the risks of nuclear power. I recently visited both of California's nuclear power plants in order to learn more about their emergency preparedness. I believe we have an obligation to learn lessons from the disaster in Japan in order to ensure that our plants are as safe as possible.

As you may know, the President's fiscal year 2012 budget proposal requests $36 billion in loan guarantee authority for the domestic nuclear industry and research and development of advanced nuclear technologies. I appreciate knowing your opposition to this funding. You may be pleased to know that I recently voted for a fiscal year 2011 Continuing Resolution that provided no additional authority for loans to nuclear facilities. As Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Energy and Water Development, I will be sure to keep your thoughts in mind as the Committee considers fiscal year 2011 and 2012 funding levels.

Again, thank you for writing. If you have further questions or comments, please contact my office in Washington, D.C. at (202) 224-3841. Best regards. <center>Sincerely yours,

Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator</center>

["Mad" Miles]

Claire, Everybody,

The premiere source of information and educated scholarly opinion on energy and other natural resource issues, is our own Sonoma County / Santa Rosa's, Post Carbon Institute (https://www.postcarbon.org/). Richard Heinberg et al. If you're not already familiar with their work, you should be. You can thank me, or curse me, later.

https://www.postcarbon.org/

[Claire]

Humans have evolved to the point of, how you say, Pretty High Tech. We have arrived .....


https://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/26557/?mod=related
https://www.technologyreview.com/computing/37164/page1/?a=f

More than 2 weeks after the accident first occurred:

Well it looks like there have been 4 robots sent to Japan from the US to be used either at Fukushima or in search and rescue, although they are not quite up to snuff in dealing with high levels of radiation.

And just NOW, they are seeing the need, after countless nuclear plants across the globe are up and running.

Very impressive hindsight, nuclear geniuses. And you still don't have the robot perfected for the task. Talk about the cart before the horse. Think hideous cartload of the worst dangerous material with no horse even bred yet that can pull the load away to a (safe??) distance.

At least now there will be a veritable industry working on the task.