This is not a movie, this is life

[Pawtucket Redemption]

This makes me madder than HELL. When white people romanticize the SH*T out of being a Native American when they don't know the first thing about what it is like for us. They are so wrapped up in our legends and spirituality that they forget that most of us are poor, not that pretty and this is not the movies. Save your f*cking stories for your own culture please.

["Mad" Miles]

Are you referring to a specific film? Or to the portrayal of Indians in film in general.

I hear your complaint, but I'm wondering which films you're talking about, or is it just "wanna be" fantasies in general? The Noble Savage and all that.

Would your criticism apply to films like "Smoke Signals (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120321/)"? A film I love, based on the fiction of Sherman Alexie. Specifically his novel, The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight In Heaven.

Admittedly, Irene Bedard is beautiful and Evan Adams is a hunk. But their characters in the film are poor, at least Thomas Builds A Fire and Victor Joseph are. Bedard's character, Susy Song, is a hospital administrator, so even though she lives in a trailer in the desert, she's not necessarily impoverished. I read her as an encouraging example for Indian youth who want to break out of the vicious poverty cycle on the res, and in the urban Indian ghettoes.

Perhaps films like that are the exceptions that prove the rule? Or again, are you not talking about movies at all, just railing against a general attitude that it's "cool" to be an Indian?

[MesoWacco]

This makes me madder than HELL. When white people romanticize the SH*T out of being a Native American when they don't know the first thing about what it is like for us. They are so wrapped up in our legends and spirituality that they forget that most of us are poor, not that pretty and this is not the movies. Save your f*cking stories for your own culture please.

True dat. White folks always romanticize peoples they commit genocide on. Hell, even native Americans believe all the romantic bullshit like how they were supposedly all peaceful and mystical and respected nature blah blah blah when in reality they were almost constantly at war and committed several genocides of their own before the white man ever arrived. Not to mention most tribes practiced slavery, often stealing women and kids from competitors. Women were property just like cattle. Torture was high entertainment as well as routine treatment of enemies.

this is not to say they didn't have a mystical minority, just like present day America. unfortunately, maintaining our lifestyle takes a heap of killing and environmental degradation. While we're raping and pillaging the world via our tax dollars and military we're imagining we're all enlightened and peaceful and can tell the world how to get along and be sure to recycle and meditate and blah blah blah. It's quite funny really.

[Tars]

"Native American" as a name for aboriginal peoples is a misnomer. No one is "native", everyone invaded this continent at one time or another. Get over yourselves.

[Barry]

What I notice is that most, if not all, posts from people who claim some "native" American heritage are about complaining. Is that all you can do, complain?

Do you hear the Jews complaining about how Yiddish has been absorbed into English? Nu? (https://rabbiseinfeld.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-nu-is.html) Do you hear the Italians complaining that we've co-opted (and watered down) their food (OK, maybe so!). Do you hear the Indians and Budhists complain that we meditate? :meditate:

Why not be proud of your heritage and share it? Share your wisdom and traditions. Share you customs. Give us your point of view!

[Pawtucket Redemption]

what do you have against Native Americans? Has one of them harmed you in the past? I have never heard a person complain or make others feel guilt more than a Jewish mother. Do you not agree?


What I notice is that most, if not all, posts from people who claim some "native" American heritage are about complaining. Is that all you can do, complain?

Do you hear the Jews complaining about how Yiddish has been absorbed into English? Nu? (https://rabbiseinfeld.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-nu-is.html) Do you hear the Italians complaining that we've co-opted (and watered down) their food (OK, maybe so!). Do you hear the Indians and Budhists complain that we meditate? :meditate:

Why not be proud of your heritage and share it? Share your wisdom and traditions. Share you customs. Give us your point of view!

[Pawtucket Redemption]

metaphorically speaking. Natives are typically treated like artifacts in a museum and not living, breathing human beings. We only tolerate whites gawking at us at pow wows because you buy our artwork.


Are you referring to a specific film? Or to the portrayal of Indians in film in general. ...

Would your criticism apply to films like "Smoke Signals (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120321/)"? ...

Perhaps films like that are the exceptions that prove the rule? Or again, are you not talking about movies at all, just railing against a general attitude that it's "cool" to be an Indian?

[Pawtucket Redemption]

Also, on the subject of "watered down" ethnic food, most recipes that come the US are modified based on the availability of ingredients and the popularity of certain things like mozzarella cheese and pizza. I have tried to immitate Malto Mario's grilled fresh anchovies from the Amalfi Coast, but even in the most gourmet grocery stores I'm told that they just don't carry fresh anchovies. Truly ethnic foods marketed in Europe for example are available based on the population's taste for certain things. Have you tasted some of the soft drinks from diiferent countries like Greece and Lebanon? Yuck! That kind of stuff doesn't go over here, and the distributors are wise to note that. Complaining about something so trivial and infantismal would be a travesty in the wake of what some ethnic groups that are indigenous to this country have to put up with. Have you ever seen a sign that said: "we don't serve Jews"? Probably not. But in Idaho and Wyoming even as late as the 1960's, it was common to see signs that said, "Indians (or Redskins) are not served here". That kind of racism, even though it is not apparent to the naked eye, runs deep, ingrained in people who are ignorant or intolerant of a culture they never took the time to understand. Again, what do you have against Native Americans, I'm seeing something here that needs explaining-I'm new to this board, so maybe you can explain, is there a history to your viewpoint?


What I notice is that most, if not all, posts from people who claim some "native" American heritage are about complaining. Is that all you can do, complain?

Do you hear the Jews complaining about how Yiddish has been absorbed into English? Nu? (https://rabbiseinfeld.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-nu-is.html) Do you hear the Italians complaining that we've co-opted (and watered down) their food (OK, maybe so!). Do you hear the Indians and Budhists complain that we meditate? :meditate:

Why not be proud of your heritage and share it? Share your wisdom and traditions. Share you customs. Give us your point of view!

[podfish]

you're new, so you haven't noticed. Most threads here don't fall into the category of complaining about mistreatment, they're more like complaints/rants that someone's out to get us and we're not outraged enough. Subtle difference.


what do you have against Native Americans? Has one of them harmed you in the past? I have never heard a person complain or make others feel guilt more than a Jewish mother. Do you not agree?
.....
I'm seeing something here that needs explaining-I'm new to this board, so...

[Sara S]

Some people show their solidarity with an ethnic group or a movement by imitation of the visible characteristics of the group, or by "romanticizing" their view of the group; for an example, I sported an afro in the seventies. I certainly wasn't romanticizing the black subculture at that point (I did,though, when I was younger, mostly because of the cool music) since by then I knew a lot of black people. And I knew people back then who were imitation Indians; they had teepees, and did sweat lodges, etc. (One neighbor family we called "Indians from New Joisey".) Funny, but their imitations were sorta sincere.

So I can understand white people with dreadlocks, although I cannot see one without mentally singing the ska song by Skankin' Pickle: "Fakin' Jamaican":

" My hair looks like pasta-I must be a Rasta.."



This makes me madder than HELL. When white people romanticize the SH*T out of being a Native American when they don't know the first thing about what it is like for us. They are so wrapped up in our legends and spirituality that they forget that most of us are poor, not that pretty and this is not the movies. Save your f*cking stories for your own culture please.

[Colleen Krinard LCSW]

Things are rarely simple...I prefer to think of this as 'truth telling' rather than complaining...we have been so removed from a direct knowledge of our own histories here in terms of the impacts of the European settling of this country...I would like to share some things which I learned while working in Tribal Health for three years in Mendocino County, and taking several Native American Studies classes at SSU which may help shed some light here. Even though it has now been mandated in the State of California that this information be printed in our history books for public education, through the tireless efforts of Native leaders over many years...I noticed a few years ago when my daughter was ih high school that the teacher just skipped the whole unit...'there just wasn't time for it'...

Just stop and let this in for a minute: that everywhere any of us live in the USA, was already someone else's homeland inhabited for thousands and thousands of years by Native peoples before the arrival of the European settlers.

Even though the genocide and appropriation of Native People's Homelands began in the early 1800's in northern America (this had already been going on much longer in Mexico, Central, and South America, attendant to the colonial take overs by the European Countries...'Cortez the Killer', etc) it was only in the 1960's that it became 'legal' for Native Americans to practice their own spirituality without threat of imprisonment. Even in the 1920's in California a white would be paid $ 20 to kill a Native, Natives could not speak in Court, yet whites could make any accusations imaginable, and then in Court that person's children were 'granted' to the white as 'indentured servants', i.e., Native child slave labor, which was a major source of free labor for the gold rush era...

In 1927 they found Lincoln's proclamation 'freeing' the Native Americans hidden in a desk...a proclamation done simultaneously with the Emancipation Proclamation...it was hidden by the same forces which took him out...I wonder why...

First the people were massacred or removed to foreign lands and forced together with people of different tribes, different languages, different customs, to share non-productive and hostile environments, and it was also made illegal for all traditional subsistence activities like hunting, fishing, gathering of berries and roots so that the imprisoned peoples were made dependent upon nutrition-less government commodities which frequently never even arrived, hence more suffering, starvation, and death, especially for the very young and the very old.

Then the people were moved around like cattle at the whim and fancy of the greed of the settlers or corporations who wanted whatever lands and resources the people now inhabited. Then the children were taken away and sent to government schools, forced to learn and speak English only, cut off from their friends, families, language, traditions, spirituality, and punished and abused on a regular basis on the hopes of 'modernizing' these 'heathens'.

Then when they were able to return to their families they frequently found the effects of grief, alcoholism, and additional removals now to the major urban areas, had devastated everything. The elders who held the traditional knowledge were now gone, and frequently the link to all the traditions and even the human personal relationships broken, in the name of 'progress', and 'conversion', and modernization'...

All of this then progresses through the generations through the trans-generational transfer of PTSD, racism, and structural inequities...

So please have some loving kindness compassion for those whose hearts and souls are still walking the trails of tears...now many of us are feeling scared by the logical conclusions of this greedy spirit and we want the wisdom and knowledge for ourselves which our forebears have been eradicating for hundreds of years...the good news is that it can be found by quieting down, and humbling down, and sitting in nature, and listening from within, and asking the ancestors for guidance...it is freely available, but cannot be bought or stolen anymore...peace...i will fight no more forever so that my children may live!




What I notice is that most, if not all, posts from people who claim some "native" American heritage are about complaining. Is that all you can do, complain?

Do you hear the Jews complaining about how Yiddish has been absorbed into English? Nu? (https://rabbiseinfeld.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-nu-is.html) Do you hear the Italians complaining that we've co-opted (and watered down) their food (OK, maybe so!). Do you hear the Indians and Budhists complain that we meditate? :meditate:

Why not be proud of your heritage and share it? Share your wisdom and traditions. Share you customs. Give us your point of view!

[Pawtucket Redemption]

Your point being? It seems to be that regardless of the message or complaint that others have the opportunity to voice their own viewpoint on the subject, or am I wrong? If people are squalshed as soon as they say something, it wouldn't be much of a conversation now would it? Or much of a party if only one viewpoint or way of addressing something was tolerated.

My point was,that a moderator should be somewhat unbiased, yet it seems that there were statements made by the moderator of this board that generalize the actions, characteristics, in other words stereotypes an entire culture. That doesn't seem in keeping with the goal of most socially conscious places of discussion where racial unity is the goal or maybe even a thought that people consider. That appreciating other cultures for what they are, the positve things, and protecting a culture's right to practice their own religtion, customs and language is the foundation on which this nation was built.

you're new, so you haven't noticed. Most threads here don't fall into the category of complaining about mistreatment, they're more like complaints/rants that someone's out to get us and we're not outraged enough. Subtle difference.

[podfish]

Your point being? ...
alright, next time I'll use the :wink:

[Colleen Krinard LCSW]

:wink:... or possibly... :wink:... get over ourselves...? :wink: ...for sure over all time lived by humans on this mothership of earth our peoples and ancestors have all been both conquerors and conquered...and everything in between...the memories of these experiences seem to live on in the multiple dimensions of body, mind, emotion, spirit, consciousness...all contributing to the ever present co-creation of the ever present now...:hmmm:

martin prechtel suggests that we are all trying to awaken / reawaken our indigenous souls...

seems like a good idea to me given the current circumstances and our multiplex human relations and actions currently unfolding with and upon our mothership... :hello: :hmmm: :rainbow:

re terrorism on the 'meta' levels...i wonder who are the real 'suicide bombers' and what is the agenda given what we see currently unfolding in the gulf and congo, for example??? inquiring minds want to know!



"Native American" as a name for aboriginal peoples is a misnomer. No one is "native", everyone invaded this continent at one time or another. Get over yourselves.

[Tars]

:wink:... or possibly... :wink:... get over ourselves...? :wink: ...for sure over all time lived by humans on this mothership of earth our peoples and ancestors have all been both conquerors and conquered...and everything in between...the memories of these experiences seem to live on in the multiple dimensions of body, mind, emotion, spirit, consciousness...all contributing to the ever present co-creation of the ever present now...:hmmm:

Whoa, that's cosmic.

The only differences I can see between the cruelties of European invaders of North America, and the peoples who'd invaded previous to that, is that the Europeans were mechanized, and hence more efficient at extermination, and they had a written language to chronicle their actions. I have no doubt that previous invaders raped, pillaged, slaughtered the ones who were here before them. That trend goes all the way back to southern Africa, where there were the only people on the globe who could claim to be "indigenous".

I'm losing patience these days, with people who just see themselves as victims, for things that happened 150 years ago. My Irish ancestors were victims of inhumanity and cruelty; I don't waste anybody's time by whining and self-pity now.

Want to see your life and the lives of those important to you, and your descendents improve? Get over the ancestral victimization excuses, and start taking responsibility for your own life. That's my tough love two cents.

[Colleen Krinard LCSW]

thanks...glad you noticed the cosmic part...that's the level i generally try to see the while thing on now...

to be sure these are significant differences...and also the degree of how much more 'recent' in the illusion of time and space this most recent travesty has occurred...and also how much more 'local' as we are currently living in the place of where this has happened most recently, and also co-existing with the descendants of the most recent 'victims'...and actually living our nice lives on their stolen property...i think this could create some understandable resentment...i have both the irish and the native angst living somewhere in there in me...

in my broader theory of human behavior and experience i have come to see that, moment to moment, we are probably each doing the best we can given where we are at any moment...one of the principles of attitudinal healing which i love is that 'a person is either making an expression of love or a call for help...' and that, added to a practice of loving kindness helps us all to accept and live with each other as we walk our individual and collective journeys...of healing... and self... and... other... discovery...

however is my 20 years of working in the human & social services field in five different states, and in seven counties in northern california, i can tell you that racism, white privilege, and other gender and ability privileges are alive and well in the good old usa, and that the 'opportunity structure' within which we live out our socio-economic lives does indeed respond differently to the diversity of skin color, ethnicity, income and education levels, and, of course, the ever-present 'old boy' network of 'who you know'...and what how others already have decided to characterize you, your family, and your people...

just some food for thought on a sunny friday...

i see the best solutions for myself are to keep breathing... notice with neutrality whenever possible...smile and reach out with support when i can...and ask for support when i can...

good dialogue :thumbsup:


Whoa, that's cosmic.

The only differences I can see between the cruelties of European invaders of North America, and the peoples who'd invaded previous to that, is that the Europeans were mechanized, and hence more efficient at extermination, and they had a written language to chronicle their actions. I have no doubt that previous invaders raped, pillaged, slaughtered the ones who were here before them. That trend goes all the way back to southern Africa, where there were the only people on the globe who could claim to be "indigenous".

I'm losing patience these days, with people who just see themselves as victims, for things that happened 150 years ago. My Irish ancestors were victims of inhumanity and cruelty; I don't waste anybody's time by whining and self-pity now.

Want to see your life and the lives of those important to you, and your descendents improve? Get over the ancestral victimization excuses, and start taking responsibility for your own life. That's my tough love two cents.

["Mad" Miles]

Things are rarely simple...
Even though the genocide and appropriation of Native People's Homelands began in the early 1800's in northern America (this had already been going on much longer in Mexico, Central, and South America, attendant to the colonial take overs by the European Countries...
In 1927 they found Lincoln's proclamation 'freeing' the Native Americans hidden in a desk...a proclamation done simultaneously with the Emancipation Proclamation...it was hidden by the same forces which took him out...I wonder why...
...peace...i will fight no more forever so that my children may live!

Very comprehensive post Ms. Krinard,

One correction though. The stealing of Indian land in North America began long before the "early 1800's" although it accelerated at a massive rate at that time, with the expansion west from the newly self-emancipated colonies. But from the very first arrival of Europeans, predominantly English, Scottish and indentured Scots-Irish and Irish, but soon many Germans, and let's not forget the French and the Dutch who predated the English in a few areas (New Amsterdam and all that). Others as well but those were the dominant groups involved in founding the thirteen colonies. The story of Acadie is a "little" different.

My point being, you left out nearly two hundred years of colonization, in your precis.

As for an Emancipation Proclamation for Indians, hidden from us by Lincoln's murderers? This is totally new information for me. I didn't know John Wilkes Booth and his crew had access to Abe's desk! And I was unaware of President Lincoln's sympathies for the indigenous peoples of this land. Can you provide some citations that back these claims up? I really am curious, since this is a pretty huge gap in my knowledge of American (U.S.) history.

The rest of your post is a very accurate and important outline of the reasons why contemporary Indian communities still suffer from the horrors and ravages visited upon them and their ancestors by our Christian ancestors (and by "our" I mean mine and those like me, if your ancestors weren't among the perps, then I'm not referring to you.)

A similar litany applies to Black people/African-Americans. Except that it has many significant differences. The alliances between escaped black slaves (and whites early on in the 1500's and 1600's) has a fascinating and inspiring history of its own.


Me So Wacco,

Your adumbration of indigenous war and other violent practices, while true on the surface, doesn't acknowledge that Europeans were equally, if not more, violent than native cultures. In fact there was hardly a human culture on the planet that didn't practice genocidal warfare, mass rape, torture as entertainment and spectacle, and other odious behaviors.

One sad, but interesting, thing about the interaction between Indigenous Americans and European invaders, is the way each influenced the other to change and amplify their violent ways.

Scalping, for instance, was introduced by the English, to make it possible to account for bounties paid on numbers killed from enemy groups. Scalps were currency. They could be turned in to collect the bounty, or exchanged for trade goods. Then Indians made it their own practice. All that stuff about scalps as a sign of a warriors fierceness, was post European invasion, by decades, if not centuries.

Slaughtering everyone in a captured enemy village, and mutilating the bodies or using torture/mutilation to kill captives, was not as general a practice, until Europeans started doing it as a matter of course. I'm not saying it didn't happen before Europeans arrived. I'm saying it wasn't done wholesale, with genocidal intent, until Europeans introduced the practice.

Women and children were captured and "enslaved" but it was a different practice than European slavery. One didn't become someone elses property for life. Rather, after a period of abuse and use, one could become adopted into the tribe. Or traded back to your own people in a hostage exchange, or escape and rejoin your own group, or another.

The first documented tortures on a mass basis to enslave and terrorize a local group, were carried out by Cristobal Colon and his men in the Caribbean. On his first voyage and every one after that.

You're going to say the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans and others were at it on their own. And you'd be right. But their records, if they recorded such atrocities, were burnt by the Spanish Conquistadores.

Keep in mind that any accounts of indigenous violence, were recorded by their European conquerers. The victors have a strong motivation to play up the brutality of their victims, in order to justify their own violent ways.

And yes, I'm familiar with the archeological evidence of cannibalism among people in the South Western United States from thousands of years ago.

I'll never forget the shock and disappointment I felt in the mid-sixties in Colorado Springs when I looked at the artists illustrations in National Geographic of human sacrifice by the Aztecs.

I'd romanticized the Eastern and Plains tribes and saw them as the heroic underdogs defending themselves against the encroaching and genocidal whites. My idealization of Indians was shattered by those articles.

But it was a good lesson. That was the start of me learning to view history as complex and ambiguous, rather than a simple conflict between good and evil.

[Barry]

What I notice is that most, if not all, posts from people who claim some "native" American heritage are about complaining. Is that all you can do, complain?..

One reason why most, if not all, the various posters about "native" Americans have a complaining and victimized tone, is that they are coming from the same person: Kathy Otis. Kathy's original username was Dark Shadows. I have told her she is not welcome here any longer.

She has resurfaced again as "Pawtucket Redemption" after other recent troll spins as Fabulous Eyes and Malibu Jim.

This is not behavior that suits your proud heritage, Kathy. It's out of integrity.

Now please leave us be.

There are plenty other internet community you can participate in.

[Colleen Krinard LCSW]

i guess my personal sense of what conscious community could become is a place where there is room for all of us to do and be what we need to do, be, and express, as that is how the healing happens. painful emotions, part of the human condition if we are alive and well, and not numbing ourselves out, can dissipate once they 'move', and it is in feeling heard, seen, and felt within a safe context that this movement becomes possible. that's one reason why 12-Step programs can be helpful. since we're all in this together on the largest of levels, even though we don't all have coffee together every day, i trust our collective wisdom wants to grow through inclusion rather than exclusion. just curious what others think...


One reason why most, if not all, the various posters about "native" Americans have a complaining and victimized tone, is that they are coming from the same person: Kathy Otis. Kathy's original username was Dark Shadows. I have told her she is not welcome here any longer.

She has resurfaced again as "Pawtucket Redemption" after other recent troll spins as Fabulous Eyes and Malibu Jim.

This is not behavior that suits your proud heritage, Kathy. It's out of integrity.

Now please leave us be.

There are plenty other internet community you can participate in.

[Colleen Krinard LCSW]

yes, of course there is so much more information than in my short post. i am glad that you are aware of this.

i especially appreciate your comments on your realization that you were 'romanticizing' your images of 'the other'. it seems we western humans either tend to marginalize, categorize, or romanticize others in attempts to try to 'own' or 'control' our fears about who we are or are not in relation to others and the differences. it seems to make many folks uncomfortable to feel that some other group may have knowledge or information or experiences which they do not have, or to which they do not automatically belong.

on a second note, i think it helps to remember that history is always written by the winners, the conquerors, you know, the ones who come out on top and in control...not too different from how the news and media work today...just because we read it in print or see it on tv doesn't mean that the information is either accurate, unbiased, or comprehensive. i do not mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, however just as there are mysteries and unresolved questions surrounding the kennedy assassination, as well as the 911 event for some folks, so also the information handed down to us regarding the lincoln assassination may not be giving us the whole story. i will leave it at that for you to ponder. the information came from a class i took at ssu in the native american studies department taught by lawyers from the National Indian Justice Center in Santa Rosa. It covered a great deal of information, much of it legal, including much about many of the treaties negotiated between the us govt and the many tribes from whom they were stealing land. my materials are all in storage right now, but i am sure that if you are interested you will be able to search out and discover more than you ever wanted to know about these things. :hmmm:


Very comprehensive post Ms. Krinard,

One correction though. The stealing of Indian land in North America began long before the "early 1800's" although it accelerated at a massive rate at that time, with the expansion west from the newly self-emancipated colonies... my point being, you left out nearly two hundred years of colonization, in your precis.

As for an Emancipation Proclamation for Indians, hidden from us by Lincoln's murderers? This is totally new information for me. I didn't know John Wilkes Booth and his crew had access to Abe's desk! ...

I'll never forget the shock and disappointment I felt in the mid-sixties in Colorado Springs when I looked at the artists illustrations in National Geographic of human sacrifice by the Aztecs.

I'd romanticized the Eastern and Plains tribes ...

That was the start of me learning to view history as complex and ambiguous, rather than a simple conflict between good and evil.

[Colleen Krinard LCSW]

As I am fairly new in these discussions, I have a question for Barry - are you, as founder and moderator, a moderator committee of one? That would seem a heavy load to bear in progressive west county in 2010. Do you have a group to work with? :idea:


One reason why most, if not all, the various posters about "native" Americans have a complaining and victimized tone, is that they are coming from the same person: Kathy Otis. Kathy's original username was Dark Shadows. I have told her she is not welcome here any longer.

She has resurfaced again as "Pawtucket Redemption" after other recent troll spins as Fabulous Eyes and Malibu Jim.

This is not behavior that suits your proud heritage, Kathy. It's out of integrity.

Now please leave us be.

There are plenty other internet community you can participate in.

["Mad" Miles]

...your realization that you were 'romanticizing' your images of 'the other'. ...regarding the lincoln assassination may not be giving us the whole story. i will leave it at that for you to ponder. the information came from a class i took at ssu in the native american studies department taught by lawyers from the National Indian Justice Center in Santa Rosa. ...my materials are all in storage right now, but i am sure that if you are interested you will be able to search out and discover more than you ever wanted to know about these things. :hmmm:

Colleen, (I hope I can address you informally by now?)

I am quite familiar with the work of Emmanuel Levinas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Levinas), who was one of the first, if not the first, European Political Philosophers to articulate the idea of Self and Other as the basis for zenophobic fear and prejudice. His short work, Totality and Infinity (https://books.google.com/books?id=Rbu8w7Pz8ggC&dq=totality+and+infinity+levinas&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=uOk4TPH8B4TCsAOqm4hS&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=totality%20and%20infinity%20levinas&f=false) is brilliant and quite accessible. I've recommended it to anyone who has expressed interest in exploring a phenomenology of prejudice. Check out his concept, "The Face of the Other".

I can assure you that from the age of four to eight years, I did not view Indians as "other", I viewed them as an idealized self. I did not see them as strange, foreign, not-self. That was a fantasy of course, but from an experiential basis, they were not "The Other". Chalk it up to the power of movies, TV and novels.

I was sure I could google "Lincoln Assassination Conspiracy" and search for references to an Indian Emancipation Proclamation. I haven't yet, hoping you might have some specifics on hand. Now I will when I catch a free minute.

(Addendum, a few hours later: I googled and binged "Lincoln Assassination Conspiracies" and "Emancipation Proclamation for Indians hidden in Lincoln's desk", and variations on those entries.

I read about several grand theories for people beyond the John Wilkes Booth crowd that have been accused of being in on the hit. I was already familiar, vaguely, with those claims.

There was nothing about his sympathy for Indians being a motivation for others to take him out. And there was absolutely nothing about a missing document to "free" the Indians.

In fact, references to Lincoln's prejudices against Indians gave reasons as to why it would be unlikely that he would do such a thing.

Now I know not everything ever printed is on the internet. And I wasn't using an academic database like Lexus/Nexus to search.

But so far nothing supports the claims of your American Indian (U.S.) Studies professors. If you ever get around to digging up your class handouts, let me know.)


Barry does have a community/committee of volunteer moderators helping him. I'm a recent recruit, (although since running the Daily Digest for him a few months ago, over a weekend while he was out of town, I've had moderator privileges. I've just not used them yet (other than a couple of minor exceptions), and didn't want to until he asked me a few days ago. Tempting as the power may be, to delete or change anyone's post I felt like, I've resisted joining the "Dark Side." If I'd tried my awesome power would have been temporary!)

Your comments about waccobb.net being a safe place for the emotionally wounded to heal, in your post before this one I'm responding to, raise some eternal and on-going issues with this board and online discussions in general. I'm sure you're familiar with the behavior by a few called "trolling." I just wrote a paragraph in reply to another thread (about praying for healing in the Gulf of Mexico) that outlines what trolls do and why, and what response others should have. Check it out.

There was a long thread about safety, inclusivity, exclusivity, tolerance, free speech and other related topics about a year and a half ago. Just search for "Banning ThePhiant" or some such and I'm sure you'll dig it up. It's pretty comprehensive and many points of view were heard from.

My view, in short, is that having experienced family therapy, when I was the identified patient, I know what a safe, welcoming social space for healing looks and feels like. It is something best done face to face, in person, in a controlled environment.

Virtual internet communities like this one, are not the best places for that. The anonymity of the internet, allows, perhaps even encourages, negative behaviors by some, that would never be tolerated in a therapeutic setting.

This is a forum for sharing information, buying, selling, discussing and debating issues of the day. In so far as any of that leads to healing, great. But my purpose here is not to be someone else's therapist. I'm not qualified, and I'm not really interested, at least not enough to give the focused attention that a professional is trained and paid to provide.

This should be a safe space for sharing and debating. Anyone who has consistently proven that they are incapable, or unwilling, to do so, should be invited to leave. If that doesn't work, they need to be evicted.

Past practices on the internet have proven this the only solution that does not allow the disturbed individuals who act as trolls, to sidetrack, delay, and sabotage the good will and safety of virtual communities such as ours.

Thank you for your recent thoughtful, interesting and articulate contributions. They, and those like them, are very much welcome! I say this in my role as an individual, who is active on this board. Not as any "official" representative of this community. Nobody elected me, I'm merely self-appointed. And obviously verbose...

[Barry]

"Mad" Miles has recently agreed to help with the moderation and more help is welcome! See my recent post about moderation. (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/69620-moderation-news.html)


As I am fairly new in these discussions, I have a question for Barry - are you, as founder and moderator, a moderator committee of one? That would seem a heavy load to bear in progressive west county in 2010. Do you have a group to work with? :idea:

[Barry]

"Mad" Miles has recently agreed to help with the moderation and more help is welcome! See my recent post about moderation. (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/69620-moderation-news.html)And I see he's plunged right in! Well done, Miles!

(I had written my post above this morning and I came back to my desk this evening to find I hadn't posted it yet. After posting it, I now see that Miles had posted in the interim.)

Thanks for explaining the dynamics, Miles! This is not a therapeutic forum, but it certainly can be! I'm delighted that many individuals are nourished by their participation here.

One important key to the nourishment here, as in a therapeutic setting, is safety. Whereas in a therapeutic setting, there is a patient(s) and a trained counselor whose objective is to accept and help the patient(s). Here, while I try to encourage a supportive atmosphere and many people, such as yourself, go out of their way to help, there is not a uniform agenda, and few people are trained and have an agenda to help.

The whole community participates equally, or at least the active participants, each with their own agenda, sensitivities, gifts and challenges. Plus you don't have the visual and energetic clues of being in person. Problems fester quickly and soon it's un-safe and the forum get dominated by people acting-out, in one form or another, and reasonable people are no longer interested. Check out the Press Democratic forums for a good example, though I believe they are trying to regain control of them recently.

This is meant to be place where we can come together as consciously as possible and to allow that light to nourish us all, with more emphasis on supporting the good rather than letting the bad "move". It's just not possible in this environment. It can get unsafe fast.

I'm sure there are many ways to run a public forum. One key trait that is important to me, and is required for the relatively intimacy that we have been able to achieve here, is safety. I remain committed in doing what I can to maintain that, even if it is sometimes controversial, or appears to be punitive or exclusive.

Having said that, if there were more people pitching in to actively set the tone, and bring a problem under control it would probably be helpful. So I encourage everybody to pitch in to try to help, whether officially or not.

But sometimes, people just really don't belong here. They are a clear net-negative to the community.
The sun of WaccoBB.net :WaccoRays: burns bright because when we come together as conscious community, it's an additive process, with everybody contributing their bit, and it creates a little inferno of light. It doesn't take much to throw that reaction off course.

[Speak2Truth]

Pawtucket makes a powerful point. I've spent some time among "early Americans" and have a feel for what Pawtucket is saying. Hollywood is (recently) most guilty of idealizing the early peoples of the Americas - except perhaps for Mel Gibson's film "Apocalypto".

The initial post may well be referencing the new movie "Avatar", a perfect case in point.

An honest person is disgusted by unearned flattery, such as that movie attempted to impose.

[Ice Queen]

This thread is re-occuring in so many different genres. The constant struggle of one-up-manship is ever present. Just because we make a statement doesn't mean that we are dis-ing someone. We are just stating OUR reality. For example I have four experiences with Indians over my lifetime.1) In the early 1950s indian kids were taken from their families to be "whitacized" at our school and we as kids were not aware of the politics of that racism. Neither did we play with those kids. 2)As a hippie hitchhiking through Nevada, I rode in the back of a pickup while the indian driver stopped over in Sparks and sent his 8 year old son into the liquor store and he came tearing out with a bottle of liquor stuffed in his shirt and we sped away. 3)In the 80s and 90s I attended pow wows at SRJC and the fairgrounds and this decade at Ya ka ama as a spectator and realized the deep spiritual roots in Nature that we all shared. For me pow wows became a spiritual experience 4) A homeless man, a talented artist wanted to sell me his bus pass to buy beer. Now which of these examples are the real Indians? None of them. Each of these experiences has informed MY life to (hopefully) make me the person that I am.
Some people show their solidarity with an ethnic group or a movement by imitation of the visible characteristics of the group, or by "romanticizing" their view of the group; for an example, I sported an afro in the seventies. I certainly wasn't romanticizing the black subculture at that point (I did,though, when I was younger, mostly because of the cool music) since by then I knew a lot of black people. And I knew people back then who were imitation Indians; they had teepees, and did sweat lodges, etc. (One neighbor family we called "Indians from New Joisey".) Funny, but their imitations were sorta sincere.

So I can understand white people with dreadlocks, although I cannot see one without mentally singing the ska song by Skankin' Pickle: "Fakin' Jamaican":

" My hair looks like pasta-I must be a Rasta.."

[Speak2Truth]

Now which of these examples are the real Indians? None of them. Each of these experiences has informed MY life to (hopefully) make me the person that I am.

Beautifully stated.

And for those with no experience... there's "Avatar". BLAH!

[Fring]

"Native American" as a name for aboriginal peoples is a misnomer. No one is "native", everyone invaded this continent at one time or another. Get over yourselves.

What if you are the first person there? How can you invade a place if you're the first person there? SO if the aboriginal "native Americans" wasn't the first people in North America then who is?

[Tars]

What if you are the first person there? How can you invade a place if you're the first person there? SO if the aboriginal "native Americans" wasn't the first people in North America then who is?

You're absolutely right. Point well made. There were "Native Americans". They were the first generations born in North America an estimated 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, born of (most-likely) Asian and/or Polynesian parents. They or their descendants were most likely murdered, enslaved, or otherwise assimilated by other more-powerful Asian "invaders" who arrived after them, 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.

The people who live in the U.S. now, no matter what their ancestry, or religion, are no more "Native" Americans than anyone else born here in current generations. Those who sanctimoniously claim to be "Native Americans" these days, as opposed to the rest of us, who're apparently..."invaders" come off to many as being merely racist hypocrites.

["Mad" Miles]

Most Indians call themselves Indian(s), or by their tribal name. That in spite of the troubled history of the word, Indian, for the indigenous / aboriginal peoples of the Americas (including but not exclusively, The U.S.)

Native American was adopted by some, and by some of their supporters, to get around the problems with the word, Indian.

Note that the most well known Indian rights movement, called itself, AIM. American Indian Movement. If the militants use the term, Indian, you can bet they're not as troubled by the weight of Cristobal Colon's exagerated claim, as others. And yeah, I'm familiar with the "En Dios" story of the origin of Indian.

Language is imperfect. It only describes by reference, not direct transmission of pure meaning. Blaming someone, accusing them of Racism, for attempting to address a historical error, it not a very productive way to communicate.

But we do love the blame game, don't we!

Keep in mind that the origin myths of many, if not all, Aboriginal American extended family groups, is that "we" were put, brought or created "here" from the beginning by "our" founding spirits/gods/etc. No one else was here, and we've been here ever since. (Until the White man moved us off from there to here, of course.)

The sense in which I am using the word, myth, here, is myth as the explanatory story which establishes meaning for a group and explains what is valuable and what it is not, in life. Not myth as a lie, told by older people to inculcate values and attitudes in the young.

I imagine, that the new DNA evidence showing the periodicity and pattern of the human diaspora from Africa (and within Africa) presents new challenges for traditional leaders of Indigenous Americans. It will be interesting to see how they encompass that information, or reject it, in telling their founding stories, myths, to their young people, and to each other.

The PBS show on the history of humans gave a glimpse into that process. And what seemed to be happening was joy over finding connections to long lost cousins, uncles and aunts. The joy of getting to know their extended family and their expanded connection to their ancestors.

Ultimately every human being on this planet, is originally from Africa. I, for one, love that fact! And teach it whenever an appropriate opportunity arises.

[ian-snazz]

FYI- "Dread Locks" have a long history, mostly outside of Jamaica. Jamaica's is only the most recent culture to embrace dreads. In India, matted hair has existed since people have been there I imagine. Most white people have straight hair that will not easily dread on its own. However, some white folks, myself included, have hair which dreads very quickly and naturally and I'm pretty sure that for a long time, my ancestors had dreads. I had dreads for about 10 years, now I don't. It was much easier to have dreads, it is a constant battle to not have them now. Anyway, the symbolism is obvious if you set aside the rasta preconceptions. For those whose hair dreads naturally, dreads symbolize embracing the natural, openly opposing mainstream culture and values and commitment to these things. Yeah, most white or black people with dreads in this country seem to be more concerned with image than meaning. I just want to make it clear that white people or anyone can have dreads and not be merely imitating something. Personally, I think that it takes much bravery, patience, and persistence to stand so openly in opposition of the status-quo. Peace.


Some people show their solidarity with an ethnic group or a movement by imitation of the visible characteristics of the group, or by "romanticizing" their view of the group; for an example, I sported an afro in the seventies. I certainly wasn't romanticizing the black subculture at that point (I did,though, when I was younger, mostly because of the cool music) since by then I knew a lot of black people. And I knew people back then who were imitation Indians; they had teepees, and did sweat lodges, etc. (One neighbor family we called "Indians from New Joisey".) Funny, but their imitations were sorta sincere.

So I can understand white people with dreadlocks, although I cannot see one without mentally singing the ska song by Skankin' Pickle: "Fakin' Jamaican":

" My hair looks like pasta-I must be a Rasta.."

[Speak2Truth]

Ultimately every human being on this planet, is originally from Africa. I, for one, love that fact! And teach it whenever an appropriate opportunity arises.

Feel free to call yourself an "African-American" in public conversations. I do and I'm lily-white.

I say it because it's the truth. :wink: