The American Zombie [Archive]

someguy

06-29-2010, 03:04 PM

"Mad" Miles

06-29-2010, 04:45 PM

Someguy,

This one I opened, because I have an abject fascination/fear of zombies. Makes some important points about economic decline, financial manipulation and debt loading the working class and future generations. Then it devolves into a highly manipulative, emotion loaded, demagogique rant about "the control system" and flouridated water being a high level conspiracy to pacify the masses.

I'm familiar with the conspiracy claims of the Brit who was speaking. Dennis something? His whole message, for years, is how the Illuminati have morphed into the Bilderberg group and they have their fingers on the neck of the entire world. Maybe, maybe not.

I've spent a good part of the last thirty-five years pondering questions of social justice, moral responsiblity of leaders and followers, and the causes of and solutions to the major global problems; poverty, environmental devastation, power dynamics and relationships between nations, economic interests, etc.

The problem I have with this alarmist critique from the populist left and right fringes, is that it oversimplifies the issues. If it was just about most people being dupes who are manipulated by nefarious forces at the top, then there doesn't seem to be much anyone can do about it. Sans a major bloody revolution which given the forces that hold all the weapons, is a recipe for massive slaughter and chaos. Plus anyone trying to foment that is easily marginalized, demonized and dealt with, permanently.

I'm not so sure that the few rich and powerful that are supposedly at the center of this conspiracy, are actually in charge of anything. It is my belief (constantly subject to critique) that most of what drives the forces we are all subject to; population growth, industrial production and distribution, limits on planetary resources, economic growth and decline, etc. are irrational.

Nobody is in charge. The capitalist economic system is on automatic pilot. Driven by the assumption, held by most people, especially those on the top benefiting from it far beyond anyone else, that it is the only feasible system available. Therefore whatever one does to benefit from it is the best set of choices available. They/we think, there will always be losers and winners. It's better to be a winner. Yes, they manipulate the system to benefit themselves. That doesn't mean everything that happens is the result of a conscious plan by the secretly powerful.

So, if nobody is in charge, how do we change things to prevent the tragectory that the human race is on? That's the real question and one I don't have any better answer to than to say, we need to realize it, and organize ourselves so that we are in charge, democratically. The details are a much more complex matter. Many of them have been discussed, I'm confident, at the U.S. Social Forum that is taking place in Detroit this week.

One sign that this is a paranoid, rumor mongering piece of world conspiracy propaganda, that comes from the margins of our political culture, is the use of two instances of coded anti-semitism. I am referring specifically to the agit-prop cartoon image of the large bank building, attached to puppet strings radiating below it, labeled "International Banking." A few minutes later it is followed by a big nosed, bushy haired, swarthy caricature of a face implied to be the image of those nefarious rich, powerful men in charge of zombifying us all and keeping us willing sheep. That image is nearly identical to the racist stereotypes of the "International Jew" from German anti-semitic propaganda in the thirties.

As for flouride having nothing to do with preventing tooth decay, prove it. My experience, personal and generational, tells me the opposite. It's anecdotal evidence, of course, except for the public health stats that support the claim.

Yes, the world is going to hell in a handbasket. From my reading of history, it always has been. I just can't see how this piece of alarmist agit-prop is going to help us change that.

By the way, I have no inherent objection to propaganda per se. All advocacy is propaganda. I just think it's important to identify who it seeks to serve, in individual instances. As an activist, I've been a propagandist by the very nature of the role.

On zombies. I kept promoting a zombie walk for one of our in service training days at San Quentin. We had them the first working Wednesday of each month. The Professional Development programming content left a great deal to be desired. For some strange reason, nobody else who taught there seemed interested. Go figure. I'm sure the inmates would have been highly entertained. Except for the ones whose meds weren't working for them...

Finally, if I'm wrong, and there is a cabal of capitalists based at the center of the international banking system radiating out of London, who design and control the major world events of our day... Hey what do I know? I'm just a "Robot Radical" because I won't acknowledge the existence of the sex slave dungeons under the various camps in Bohemian Grove! My bad.

Telling people that they're uneducated, brain-washed, blind, asleep, sheep, zombies doesn't strike me as an effective means to engage their active interest in a project to improve their lives and the lives of their progeny. It just comes off as insulting to them and self-indulgent venting by those saying it. Isn't that the most effective way to keep us powerless? Insult and alienate us so we just sigh, and say, why bother!

I really liked the speech/rant by the Arab-American wrestler, with the exception I've already described. Shouting at the audience that, "You've all been brain-washed!!" Not sure that helped him get his message across.

someguy

06-29-2010, 05:20 PM

Someguy,

This one I opened, because I have an abject fascination/fear of zombies. Makes some important points about economic decline, financial manipulation and debt loading the working class and future generations. Then it devolves into a highly manipulative, emotion loaded, demagogique rant about "the control system" and flouridated water being a high level conspiracy to pacify the masses.

I'm not going to address everything you've said here. We have a difference of opinion, lets just leave it at that.

I've already wasted enough of my time proving things to you. Why would I waste anymore? You already stated that you have no interest in reading scientific studies because your trust in the 'experts' is so profound. How in the hell am I supposed to prove something to you if you won't even read my proof, even when my proof is in the form of studies published in respected journals? In that case, all I was trying to prove was that the article you posted was full of blatant lies. If you change your mind, two of the studies I posted on the vaccines and autism thread were about systemic vs. topical fluoride.

For the record, I don't agree with the statement in the video about fluoride as it was worded. Fluoride does prevent cavities when used topically. However, it is still poisonous and it can be absorbed through the mouth lining. There are other ways to prevent cavities, and even to heal existing ones.

podfish

06-30-2010, 08:20 AM

I think this is the core of it. I'm very taken by the recent awareness of emergent behavior. Pretty much all of the complex interactions in the world arise without central control. So maybe it's more correct to say nothing happens that's the result of a conscious plan. When you have billions of entities (this pattern shows up in non-biological, not just non-rational, entities) acting on their own, amazingly complex systems arise. People see organization where it isn't, like in the constellations. We try to take charge of what we can, and control what we can. It's natural to assume that there are others out there who do it better. And of course there are others who do do it better. I'm not denying the existence of evil capitalist overlords, I'm just questioning their ability to exert the level of control that some fear they can. The systems that emerge are going to be unfair, and the ability to manipulate them isn't going to be evenly distributed, but there can't be a working "control system" when there are this many moving parts.

...Nobody is in charge. The capitalist economic system is on automatic pilot. ..<snip>... they manipulate the system to benefit themselves. That doesn't mean everything that happens is the result of a conscious plan by the secretly powerful.

"Mad" Miles

06-30-2010, 11:30 AM

I think this is the core of it. I'm very taken by the recent awareness of emergent behavior. Pretty much all of the complex interactions in the world arise without central control. So maybe it's more correct to say nothing happens that's the result of a conscious plan. ... I'm not denying the existence of evil capitalist overlords, I'm just questioning their ability to exert the level of control that some fear they can. The systems that emerge are going to be unfair, and the ability to manipulate them isn't going to be evenly distributed, but there can't be a working "control system" when there are this many moving parts.

Thank you Podfish,

You've articulated the conundrum even better than I could. When I wrote - That doesn't mean everything that happens is the result of a conscious plan by the secretly powerful. - I was making a counter-argument to the one in the video that seemed to say every major world event, including ones that most don't think about as major, say water flouridation, is part of "the control system" run by some secret cabal of powerful economic interests.

After writing my reply yesterday, I feared I would be seen as saying that the powerful are no more responsible for the events of the day than anyone else. I don't think that. I believe we are all morally, and practically, responsible for our own actions. Karma seems to prevail, one way or another. The powerful have responsibility commensurate with their influence and role in what happens. Corporate leaders who cut safety costs on deep sea oil extraction, are responsible for the disasterous consequences. I just don't think that the powerful run everything via conscious will. They wish!

After 9/11 when all of the conspiracy theories were circulating on the webnets (just made that up! Like it? Webnets/Wingnuts, Get it?), Michael Ruppert et al, my response was... Suppose it's true? Suppose it was a false flag, black op, black propaganda action to goad the U.S. populace into supporting renewed imperialist ventures in the Middle East?

What does that mean for me, an activist and organizer who wants to mobilize large numbers of people to oppose the wrong in the world for which my country is responsible? (And the wrong that others are responsible for as well, but I think it's best to start close to home.)

Ultimately not much, whether the problem is the inherent systemic tendencies of the dominant economic/social/political structure, or the decisions of those in charge of it, the resulting problems are the same.

The need to mobilize the public to demand changes in policy, and our own daily habits, is the same. In many ways, the "those evil men are conspiring to control us all" charge is a distraction from the real work that needs to be done. One response could simply be, who are they and how can I join them?

Thanks for reading closely,

Peace Voyager

06-30-2010, 01:50 PM

Someguy,

propaganda in the thirties.[/SIZE][/FONT]

As for flouride having nothing to do with preventing tooth decay, prove it. My experience, personal and generational, tells me the opposite. It's anecdotal evidence, of course, except for the public health stats that support the claim.

The concern regarding fluoride in the drinking water is more about that damage it causes to our internal organs and bones.

Here are some posts from the Sonoma County Water Coalition. As our Public Officials are considering putting this toxin in our drinking water, the SCWC held a tech meeting on it.

Please let your representatives know that you insist they leave the fluoride out.

Thank you,

Colleen

Flouride in drinking water is the topic on the radio show Coast to
Coast AM KSRO 1350 AM 10PM-2AM
Risks of Fluoride - Shows - Coast to Coast AM (https://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2009/01/13.html)

Tuesday January 13th, 2009
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Guests
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dentist in the fight against fluoride, Dr. Bill Osmunson will discuss
the dangers and risks of the use of fluoride in our toothpaste and
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First Half-Hour: Al Bielek talks about the Philadelphia Experiment and
other topics.
Related Articles
Video: Fluoride Concerns

In this short video clip, Dr. Bill Osmunson, a general and cosmetic
dentist, explains his concerns about fluoride in tap water and toot

TAKE ACTION! Sign the Online Message to Congress! fluoridealert.org

Book

Fluoride in Drinking Water:
A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards
Committee on Fluoride in Drinking Water, National Research Council

Earth & Life Studies https://dels.nas.edu/dels/

Board on Environmental Studies and Toxicology - best (https://dels.nas.edu/best/)
The Board on Environmental Studies and Toxicology (BEST) is the
National Academies' principal study unit for environmental pollution
problems affecting human health, human impacts on the environment, and
the assessment and management of related risks to human health and the
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applied ecology; natural resources; and environmental engineering,
economics, law, and policy. The breadth and multidisciplinary
character of BEST's program is reflected in the board's diverse
membership, as well as its broad constituency of government and
private sponsors. The oversight of BEST's program is provided by the
National Research Council's Division on Earth and Life Studies.
Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards (https://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11571)

Re: [SCWaterCoalition] Re: Fluorination issues

Thanks Stephen for this topic.

Let's invite all the Supervisors (& potential ones) as guests, as well as, the writer for the Bohemian who did not address the risks when he covered this story for their "Conspiracy Theory" cover story.

I suggest contacting Dr. Gordon in Santa Rosa, or Wayne Anderson, a PA with Gordon's practice.

Thanks,

Colleen Fernald

Subject: [SCWaterCoalition] Re: Fluorination issues
To: [email protected]..
Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 9:00 PM

We need a tech session on this topic ... February 25 maybe. Anyone want to identify three or four specialists who can speak to the medical, legislative, epidemiological and other issues?

I raised this topic in a water meeting in another organization earlier this year and was in a minority of one on the issue.

I personally dislike the idea of using municiple water supply to medicate an entire population. What's next? Prozac? Viagra?

Stephen

In a message dated 11/11/2008 8:34:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, iws@... writes:

Fluoridation of municipal water is a very poorly conceived idea. In order to get a very small amount of fluorine onto the teeth of a small target population of children who cannot afford fluoride toothpaste, it is proposed that all of our water including water to bath, wash cloths, flush toilets, water plants etc be treated with fluoride. This should require an EIR and it should be vehemently resisted. The vast majority of that fluoride will be available to react with fermentation products in sewers where it will form recalcitrant compounds similar to those halogenated organic compounds currently formed in reaction to chlorine. Are the proponents of this idea just ignorant of chemistry or what? For less money we could more effectively provide fluoride tooth paste for children who need it through our schools. With Chlorine there is a risk benefit that we can reduce pathogens. With fluorine we are risking public health for the purpose of preventing toot decay.

Bob Rawson

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:29 PM

Subject: [SonomaWildlife] Fluorination issues: [cheintegrativeheal th] Commentary on Crestor headlines today -- that statin further reduces heart attacks, stroke, and all-cause mortality

Forwarded with permissions granted.

I'd think this would be of great concern related to point and non-point discharges from any urban source.

As the SCWA considers system-wide fluoridation there are serious questions re long-term fate and toxicity in the wastestream and food chain. Note citation from upcoming book.

(this issue of Nature cites another fluorine compound, NF3, as another potent operator in climate change.)

----- Original Message -----

From: Deborah Moore

To: michael lerner ; che integrative health

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:08 AM

Subject: RE: [cheintegrativeheal th] Commentary on Crestor headlines today -- that statin further reduces heart attacks, stroke, and all-cause mortality

Michael -

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'd like to point out that these particular side effects (and many others) are most likely due to the fact that this is another fluorinated statin. More and more drugs are fluorinated, and at least some of this fluorination adds to the already sky-high F body burden in many people. Some fluorinated pharmaceuticals, like Cipro and other fluoroquinolones, can and do have long-lasting and/or permanent devastating effects on individuals. The public has no idea and it's off the radar screen of most health professionals.

I deal with people all the time who are poisoned from these drugs. It's heartbreaking that they have no idea they're continuing to poison themselves (with their physician's help) AS they try to feel better with other drugs. People taking these statins may be trading heart attacks for a hugely diminished quality of life.

Our forthcoming book on fluoride illness discusses the mechanisms involved with the poisoning from these drugs and other sources.

Deb

Deborah E. Moore, PhD

Re: [SCWaterCoalition] fluoridation

Bob,
Thanks.
I'm working to get a body of science and consultants together on fluorine toxicity. Any specific studies or citations you have would be very helpful. I think this is potentially a serious issue that may have affected the health of several generations of human and wildlife. Question is: who has been watching the store???

Tom

On Jan 3, 2009, at 9:48 PM, Robert Rawson wrote:

Tom,

FYI, the new NPDES permits for dischargers in our basin are coming out with lower detection limits for chlorine. The limit is now 0.1 mg/l residual but it will be reduced to something closer to 0.01 mg/l in the new permits. This requires continuous 24-7 monitoring. I do not know what dosage level they plan to add Fluorine to the drinking water but if they add it to drinking water then it will be passing through in the wastewater. The NPDES permits need to have detection limits set on Fluorine that are equivalent. At present to the best of my knowledge they do not have these lower detection limits. Every new permit should have a reasonable potentials analysis. New equipment at every plant will need to monitor fluorine and chlorine. Fluorine addition is a public health, air quality and a water quality issue rolled up in a boondoggle. This will be a boon for the water treatment industry (RO unit sales) as intelligent people are going to want to get this garbage out of their water if they can afford the equipment.

Bob Rawson

From: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [SCWaterCoalition] fluoridation

I don't know if my comments were in the minutes, but they should have been. There is enough recent science to justify reevaluation of fluoridation. Moreover, no one seems to be concerned about acute and chronic aquatic toxicity and uptake in the food chain, not to mention reaction byproducts in the ecology as fluoridated water returns to rivers and aquifers via wastewater and non-point source runoff.

I'd told the WAC I would personally like to review the fluoride issue and toxicology...that should be in the minutes. My guess is that fluoridation proponents will try to stonewall this issue.

Tom

> Subject: [SCWaterCoalition] fluoridation
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 2:17 PM
> From TAC Dec 1 Minutes:
>
> 6. Fluoridation
> Chris DeGabriele informed TAC members that he has received
> information on
> cost of Fluoridation from Santa Rosa and Petaluma, but have
> not received any
> information from the other contractors. He re-iterated the
> importance of getting
> all the information to the SCWA so they could compile an
> overall cost. Smaller
> agencies with less than 10,000 service connections (Cotati,
> Valley of the Moon
> and Sonoma) were not required to prepare such an estimate
> and an average cost
> per turnout is recommended for evaluating fluoridation
> costs for the smaller
> agencies.
>
> This will be the topic of the SCWC tech meeting March 25. I
> have arranged for
> a naturopath to speak to the negatives of fluoridating
> public water supply.
> (Did you know that there are more hip fractures in
> communities that fluoridate
> their water?) If anyone knows an expert who can speak to
> the positives, please
> ask them if they are available to speak with us that
> evening.
>
> Stephen
>
>